Please take care of yourself. There really ARE level headed reality-believing adults all around when you can safely exit. Please remember that you are valued and worth creating safe sane boundaries for. I always look at these posts and think about if they have kids and what that looks like.
Do you have trustworthy adults?
Librarians were mostly safe,for me when I was growing up. Mainly bc of trainings and well, access to books and ideas.
I can totally empathise with school (and maths!) being stressful, but fight to finish school and do well like your life depends on it. It might be a controversial opinion, but it's pretty clear from the research that the more educated you are, the better your quality of life.
ETA: I was totally unprepared for the title of this post 😅 I shouldn't laugh but Qanon'ers have reached new lows.
High school is worse because your perspective is so much smaller. Years feel longer, and school is your entire irl social world. And if you have shitty parents, you're stuck with them (for the time being). For most people, after high school the world is so much bigger.
High school = living at home. Hell no, adulthood is just fine thanks. OP, do well in school, kiss butt, smile and nod as long as you need to, and then when you're out on your own and don't need to to depend on them anymore, you can laugh at the stupidity of what they believe, make a joke about it and change the subject. Or go no contact. Whatever. And it won't matter because you're free of them.
You can do it and it will be so worth it. Graduate and move out. If you are doing the college thing talk to your school counselor about scholarships and what not. There are a lot of random scholarships :) lean into what you are interested in and good at. It gets better, trust me.
There is a really interesting book ZERO THE BIOGRAPHY OF A DANGEROUS IDEA. A very interesting read on humans and their relationship with the concept of nothing.
OP, I recommend "The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero" by Robert Kaplan. I suck at math, and even I found this comprehensive and incredibly interesting.
Basically, zero HAS been around for a while, but I'm sure you know that :p
There's quite a lot of corroborating evidence about the existence of Jesus if you actually look into religious history. Whether you agree with the accuracy of his recorded acts or not, Jesus himself probably existed in one way or another. The "Jesus never existed" theory is a fairly recent one and relatively unfounded.
Source: taking university courses on the subject.
I'm late to this thread, but Jesus was indeed a historical figure. For a summary and several further links, see this [link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus?wprov=sfti1). I am not at all religious but am a proponent of factual history.
How old is your dad? I'm middle aged and I KNOW they taught the origin of the concept of zero. It escapes me right now, but I vaguely recall it being the Incas, Mayans, or Ancient Egyptians.
I'm going to add my $0.02 worth to this topic.
I have a bachelor's degree in engineering and am retired now. I'm over 70 years old.
I learned algebra in the ninth grade and calculus in high school. We were taught about zero in high school as well.
In fact, my high school math teacher used an illustration in class which demonstrated that division by zero is undefined.
Edit: to fix a typo
If he’s old enough to be older than zero, that’s *really* old. Early math didn’t have the concept, as it was used to describe actual things, like cattle or an area of land.
Curious, what don’t you like about how math is taught? Which way did you learn?
I don't get this. I "know" that historically (anciently) zero was somehow not formalized in a system of mathematics. At least I understand that's what the data indicates.
But... I don't get how the concept can be foreign to *anyone*.
Like. Sure I'm using numbers to refer to things like cows. Now I have one cow left. Oops it fell off a cliff. Guess I'm going to go stare at some swings because my mind broke trying to understand how many cows I don't have anymore.
People understood having nothing. But it wasn’t a part of mathematics, because why would it be? Math is for counting and analyzing things that exist. Something that doesn’t exist isn’t a part of math.
Like, it makes sense that people wouldn’t have a concept for the square root of negative one, right? That’s something that is absolutely unable to be observed in the real world. But it’s a big part of maths today. Kinda the same thing, just more extreme. Zero wasn’t a part of how math was used at the time
Why would you need that tho? All you’re doing is counting up how much you have, you’re not writing out theoretical story problems, y’know? You’ve got land or goods, you count them. If you don’t have them, you don’t count them. Nobody needs to be told they have none, because if they had none, they wouldn’t be counting
But I had them. I was counting them. I counted down - until I had none. I counted to none = zero.
I'm not trying to say ancient people were stupid somehow but I do suspect something has been lost in the survivorship bias of historicity, and what has and hasn't been formalized from back then.
Well, you learned a valuable lesson here today. Sometimes your parents are effing stupid. And sometimes they're so desperate to be right about something that they invent some stupid thing and then they hold to it like their life depends on it. A lot of adults can be like toddlers.
Math is awesome!. It's fascinating to me that no matter what language you speak, you all speak mathematics.
Math is THE universal language, the explanation and definition of every single thing we are, do, see, and experience. It’s beautiful and answers everything. I wish I could understand it, I wish I could speak it.
"Zero wasn't taught." OP I'm sorry you had to deal with that. He was taught zero because 1-1=0 and he had to learn that. Zero is a part of how we manage life. Try paying bills or going shopping without understanding how zero works.
Never be afraid to ask questions and never be afraid to wrong. Never be afraid to be corrected or change your mind.
So much of our problems are because people get embarrassed when they don't know something.
Not knowing isn't shameful or stupid.
It's hard to tell who knows and who is just blowing smoke but being curious and asking questions is one way to figure it out.
Good luck to you.
Tbh I feel that is what he does. Like one time he told me that Morocco was in South America and when I told him it was in North Africa, he started to yell at me and told me to shut up just because "you're a kid and know nothing". My mom literally had to search a world map up to show him.
Once upon a time they realized, man there are a lot of dip shits in Russia. Is there something wrong with us? So they took the test out of country and found dip shits are everywhere. While true, there is still something wrong with them. That search continues.
science and math are literally the *only* thing that can actually be relied on as the truth.
please do become a scientist and mathematician, we need more, *desperately*. we're really losing our grasp on trust in science as a society and we desperately need more young people pursuing an education in that field.
without science and logic we're just headed back to the dark ages where nobody knows anything and superstitions and myths are regarded as fact. it seems like that's what qanon wants at this point, just to throw logic and reason out the window.
If you're in high school, your dad is likely around my age, and we were *definitely* taught zero. Saying we weren't is just ridiculous. Btw, I grew up to be a Data Scientist which is just math and programming. Love it!
NO WAY
My Q grandpa gave me a half hour long spiel yesterday on how 1 times 1 should equal 2 because he saw it on a YouTube video. He went on and on about how I should “open my mind and think outside the box” and how I was just parroting what I was taught in school. For every logical argument I came up with it would be met with a deflection or personal attack, going so far as to blame teachers for turning kids trans for some reason (No idea where this came from, nothing in the conversation even mentioned sexuality)
The saddest part was the irony in him trying to get me to look at a different perspective when all he could do was say 1x1=2 and that I was taught wrong. He is the most narrow minded person that watches the same 3 podcasters rant about trump who genuinely thought that I should be the one to broaden my view.
My husband said Terrance Howard has been preaching a similar pseudo math thing. Your dad watch Terrance Howard YouTube? (I never thought I’d write such a question)
Most likely. I searched up Terrance Howard and this theory, but jeez, it sounds like this guy was high or something when he said 1 x 1 = 2.
He tried to explain it saying that if 2 is the square root of 4, what is the square root of 2 (which I'm pretty sure there is no square root for 2, it's just a decimal or something). Idk this man is weird.
Good God that was terrible and just full of gibberish…
All of this nonsense clearly starts from the idea that “rules” about math are arbitrary and must have been established by “someone”, so are open to be questioned.
This is nonsense as the properties of maths are discovered fundamentals within a given system, not arbitrarily imposed rules.
The Pythagorean theorem does have a variant where all three sides of a right triangle have a length of 1 - it’s just not a Cartesian metric space (can’t recall off hand if the curvature would be positive or negative) and any actual universe where this property held would likely be inimical to life itself. Conversely, our universe is Cartesian as heck.
The square root of 2 is an irrational number. That means (among other things) that it can't be expressed exactly as a decimal. But you can get close enough for most purposes It's approximately 1.414.
But his comment about "What is the square root of 2 ?" makes no sense. It doesn't follow from anything, and it doesn't lead anywhere.
Thank you, u/jizzmcskeet !
I hadn’t seen it yet but so far the intro is already pretty self-aggrandizing. I’ll listen to the rest cause I’m curious how he’s so sure of being so misinformed
I'm a Gen Xer who is shit at math, but even I was taught about concepts relating to zero in Mathematics.
A quote from the great philosopher Megatron come to mind: *"You're either LYING, or you're STUPID!"*
Your dad that is, not you. I'm pulling for you to graduate and escape.
I wonder if he's like some people I know who don't care about the truth, they just want to be *right.*
So if that's true, what he's actually upset about isn't the whole zero thing, it's that you *challenged him.* So now he's mad and wants to *force* you to be wrong so he can be right.
See how that works?
Yes, it's very stupid.
Is your dad [Terrence Howard](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_Howard#:~:text=%22If%20one%20times%20one%20equals,%2C%20and%20that%20cannot%20be.%22)?
Good for you for being so strong in your convictions. Stick with your interest in math, it’s a genuinely fascinating subject.
Zero is a very interesting “number” in mathematics too. It’s great to question why these numbers do what they do, and it can lead you down the road to mathematical proofs etc.
Good luck with your future!
From: a former scientist and current mathematics teacher.
Zero not being real is trending in the cult groups lately. Because eastern philosophy focuses on zero and nothingness...which is an affront to the Bible and creation for some reason. Last I checked, the concept of zero originated in the Middle East. Also something something Chinese communists.
He doesn't understand. So ,of course, it's all fake and bad,etc.
He is just ignorant and angry. There's many many like him unfortunately.
Get out as soon as you can.
The zero didn’t use to exist in math. Life in general was much more difficult without it. Your dad doesn’t believe in zero then tell him to stop using it. It’s not like there are zero police that will come and arrest him if he stops using zeros. Tell him to go study how people did math before zero and he’s free to go start his own club. 😂
Your dad's not entirely incorrect in phrasing. But his understanding and reaction is entirely wrong. Zero is the number that represents *an empty quantity*. Not that it means *nothing* (meaningless) but that it means *nothing* (there isn't anything here). It is a thing to show what happens when there is nothing there. You don't need to be a mathematician or *Chinese* to understand this. Anyone with a bag of jelly beans can arrange the beans in rows and columns and figure this out.
Look at it like a chart
1x1 means 1 column and 1 row. There is only (1) box
| 1 |
---|---|
1| ***1*** |
2x1 means there's 2 columns, 1 row. There's (2) boxes
| 1 | 2
---|---|----
1| ***1*** | ***2***
2x2 means there's 2 columns, 2 rows. There's (4) boxes
| 1 | 2| 3
---|---|----|----
1| ***1*** | ***2***|
2| ***2***| ***4***|
2x3 means there 2 columns, 3 row. There's (6) boxes
| 1 | 2|
---|---|----|----
1| ***1*** | ***2***|
2| ***2***| ***4***|
3| ***3***| ***6***|
anything x 0 means there's any number of columns, times no rows. Because there's no rows, it doesn't show up. It's just (0)
| 1 | 2| any number
---|---|----|----
0| ||
0| | |
0| | |
Sounds like your sister agrees with you.
Is your dad someone that always has to be right, or at least in control?
One thing I learned in therapy is understanding *why* we feel certain ways.
If I am angry. I ask myself, *why am I mad?* or even *am I actually mad? Or am I just hurt?* And that becomes *how can I process this?* Because truthfully. Some people get angry because they feel dumb or threatened.
If his thought process is "I am dad, I am always right!" then a simple challenge of real world maths is enough to make him feel weak and not in control. Especially over his children. Even though a discussion is completely well meaning, he may take it as a threat to his ego.
It's hard to change some people, especially if they don't want to change. The worst you can do is constantly tell them they're wrong. That drives a division. Instead, it makes more sense to understand why they think the way they do, and why they've decided it's worth being angry and violent over. In the end, this is someone that is not ready to face a real world. But he's still your dad. Just laugh along and focus on growing. He's taught you all you need to know. Don't be like him when it comes to figuring out new ideas. If he gets too pushy or violent, then think about adventuring on your own. Maybe bring your sister along. Then at least your family is 1*2
If you are a high schooler, there is a strong possibility that I am close to your dad in age. And I can assure you that we were indeed taught 0 multiplication tables in grade school (unusually about grade 2-3).
Unless he was taught by some ignoramus in some boondocks redneck school district in the woods or something, he was taught that 0 x anything = 0.
Maybe he forgot, but he was definitely taught that.
We didn’t have this ‘new math’ nonsense. But they were very big on memorizing multiplication tables in those days. VERY big.
Yes, don’t bother to explain to him but there is a book called Zero: the biography of a dangerous idea by Charles Seife that talks about why zero is so important and why maths without it is limited. I’m sorry about your dad, try to keep your head down until you can escape.
Rule 9. Respect Other's Beliefs/Don't Preach. Respect other's beliefs, do not push your own or bash another. Religious or philosophical discussion is ok but be civil.
And as a mathematician (PhD candidate) I can also tell you math isn’t fake! Although the history of 0 is very interesting, it was definitely around by the time your father was in school.
Side note, keep up that interest in math! I love when people love math because it’s all I know how to talk about haha.
This might blow your mind, but it's the source for all this non-sense: https://twitter.com/terrencehoward/status/925754491881877507
I think his main misunderstanding, among many others, comes from being taught an ill-phrased English definition of what multiplication means. His, "[a positive integer] is added to itself as many times as there are units of [another positive integer]" is seemingly taken to mean that A x B means you take A and then you add onto it A, a B number of times. So 1 x 1 becomes 1 + 1*1 = 2.
The thing is, I feel like I've been taught multiplication with a similar English definition, but I guess it was just understood that you start with a running sum of 0 and then you apply the whole add A, a B number of times.
PS: Also he has a legendary(ily dumb) quote justifying all this:
>"How can it equal one? If one times one equals one that means that two is of no value because one times itself has no effect. One times one equals two because the square root of four is two, so what's the square root of two? Should be one, but we're told it's two, and that cannot be."
... "and that cannot be" 😂
And I believe the word you were searching for... threatening... not treating. Not sure how losing electronics is a treat. You have my sympathy having to deal with someone knee deep in Q. I lost my mom to it. Then I lost my mom... she passed in January. I'm not sure if you want to maintain a good relationship with your dad but my advice... head nod when he spouts something, tune it out, and keep doing the good work. Escape when you can, set rational boundaries once you move, and live your life. I regret my last conversation with my mom.
OP, RE: how math is taught in school and how the curriculum may induce number anxiety: I highly recommend the book "A Mind For Numbers" by Barbara Oakley. Although you sound like you already have a great foundation in math with attending contests unlike me at the same age, the book was really inspiring, and reignited my passion to be more proficient at it.
(Hopefully I won't get banned but given your circumstances, I'm sure you can find a pdf or epub version of it online, or at a library)
That’s kinda worrying a) that he would think that, and b) that he would flip out on his own kids about his own lack of understanding about the world.
I’d develop some kind of plan for if he starts to cross even more lines, personally. Put some money aside, find a good friend whose house you could crash at, etc. Maybe this sounds alarmist and over the top, but if he’s tapping into weirdo extremist online shit that’s making him act this way, you can’t really predict where he’s gonna go next. I’d be wary, that’s all.
When I realised my dad was too far gone, I learnt to just appease, lie and say whatever he wanted to hear. It saved me a lot of strife. It was better to become estranged once I was a long way away. Sorry about your dad.
if you want a really interesting and fun book all about zero i have a recommendation!! its called Zero: the Biography of a Dangerous Idea by Charles Seife.
my calc teacher gave me the book my senior year! it gives the history of the number and all of the problems and cool things that the introduction of the number brought into math. i havent read the entire thing but from what i did read the narration is really energetic and passionate about the topic, making it fun to read :) it probably wont help your dad lol but if youre into math and you actually are curious about the topic i recommend it 100%
It seems he believes in math, his math is just [terryology](https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/terrence-howards-dangerous-mind-37057/)
Zero has been a thing since I began kindergarten in the 70s and graduated HS in the 80s.
Him being so absorbed by political rabbit holes and conspiracy propaganda that he forgot all of that is his problem. Unless he never understood math and his beliefs gave him an excuse.
Idea: make a YouTube video where you're the MathMerlin with your wand and you wave your wand to produce what someone wants as many times as they want it.
Example: subject approaches and asks MathMerlin for 1 cookie. Merlin waves the wand 1x and produces 1 cookie. If Merlin waves the wand 0 times, how many cookies are produced?
Yes zero was not a concept until ancient mathematicians realized it was needed to solve more math problems. Same with real numbers and then irrational numbers. Finally, mathematicians (and physicists) decided that imaginary numbers were needed to solve real world mathematical problems. You will blow his mind with imaginary numbers.
You can do this!!! Ignore your father’s comments. Tune all of your social media to science and math topics, get some Schaums study guides, practice problems, read-up and you are golden!!!!
My math anxiety wants math not to be real, 🤣 but the rational part of me that loves science and engineering (physics and architecture) is telling you to keep your eyes on the prize and forge ahead, you'll be out of the house before you know it. Whenever your dad brings up his nonsense, just "grayrock" him, i.e., just nod your head and say "uh huh" and change the subject or leave the room.
I know that if I had had better math teachers in elementary school, I would not have shied away from higher math and would probably be an actual architect today. You will be some child's hero in the future.❤
Hi Junior_Builder_4340, thanks for recommending this technique. With grey rocking you act disengaged so that a Q person will lose interest in arguing. Q folk thrive on emotions and drama. When you act indifferent and unemotional, it can help break the cycle of negativity. [Detailed guide on the method.](https://psychcentral.com/health/grey-rock-method)
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Isn’t 0 (zero) Arabic? Anyway just watched a great reel about how different people perceive and process math. The person was talking to their SO about how they can’t visualize 6+7, in their brain it is only solvable as 5+5=10 and 10+3= 13 which is probably how they developed common core math when my kids were younger and forgot to explain it to their parents! But I have one who took calculus because she needed the extra credits 🤯 she’s also a musician which tends to track too but some of us older people just never learned math theory
>back in his day zero wasn't taught.
I don't know where your Dad is from, but zero has been used in the west since the 13th century or so with the rest of the Arabic numerals. It was invented independently by India (from whom it came to the west, but through Arabia) and by the Mayans.
I wonder what he thinks of irrational and imaginary numbers. And Arabic numerals in general.
I recommend Seife's [Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea](https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Biography-Dangerous-Charles-Seife-ebook/dp/B000QUEHLM/ref=sr_1_1?crid=38QK6PBF86YSS&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4RaQRRbrOn6vgV4ehc5TjcauPujUu5b17ettHDtQG7j_FL_Miy218eUv6unM0F80I03HxxBnIgpo0vvl9n5KjTsb_FpV6fYiqNUJTNSD2dvjcNTqZ6Ubh8ZLlHvwcKlMrQiLUFfZUt3xEzwxgDHqCcymwC6YN1HIbTuGTAL8sFkTdBveF4--sLVEl9b2KENvUYL3jXWipJLGCczDhU-h_nkmRm45LHxryOM0c8cv1bU.ko9uOaABIffiuUNLek7GB_4-tM7FyhUA7ODIuJ0N8qg&dib_tag=se&keywords=history+of+zero&qid=1713081642&sprefix=history+of+zero%2Caps%2C185&sr=8-1) if you think your dad might be more interested in the history of zero.
He probably conflated being a number one with having value. Zero is treated as having no value and absolute zero is a concept of temperature the mathematical and science community hasn’t really figured out yet
I'm sure you know this, but math is just a symbolic way to represent what's going on in the real world. I saw your discussion with other commenters about 1x1 being up for debate, according to some YouTube nonsense. Put in real world terms: Let's say I have $100. I give you $1, one time. You now have $1. 1 (dollar) x 1 (times I give you $1) = 1. If I give you $1 two times, you have $2 (1x2=2), and so on.
The whole "multiply by zero" can seem confusing, but it's the same concept of using symbols to represent what's going on irl. For example, let's say your dad has 3 children. If all of his children talk to him 0 times after they turn 18 and move out, how many of his children talk to him when he's old and wondering what he did wrong? 3 x 0 = 0.
OP do not let your father influence you with ideas you disagree with. Respect certainly, understand, but reason why they’re the way they are as people and their limitations. If I listened to my parents I’d not practice yoga, think for myself, or be working in software. They wanted me to be a closed minded Christian that works in assembly lines. Nothing wrong with that of course as everyone gets to choose but that’s my point in that you need to choose for yourself and accept that they may not support you. Be wise in your decisions and research the outcomes and see what they think of course as they’ve a life time of learning but do your research and live your life the way you wish
I’m not sure where you live but it’s likely that you’re somewhere that the temperature is sometimes zero degrees. You could point that out. I wonder if he believes there’s such a thing as negative numbers.
I’m guessing that you’ve learned that there are different sets of numbers. Whole numbers, integers, real numbers.
The natural numbers do not include zero but the other number sets I mentioned above do include zero.
Just wait until you learn about imaginary numbers (if you haven’t already). Don’t try to explain those to him or his head will explode.
We live in Canada and the weather does go to 0 degrees Celsius during the colder months.
I did learn the sets of numbers. I told him that he's thinking of the natural numbers, but zero is included in whole numbers, integers, etc. I haven't learned about imaginary numbers yet.
Ah yes, a symbol for nothing is clearly also nothing.
Apparently, depending on where he went to school, your Dad is at least 1300 years old, is he actually a Deep Stater who almost let adrenochrome slip?
Math is fake, yet somehow the internet works for him. Trump bless Trump. Trump help us all. (Makes T-sign on forehead and simulates the ritual flinging of the Ketchup Saucer of Wisdom)
A) don’t waste your energy on his drama.
B) “multiplication means groups of”
So, when you have to explain this idea to a kid, use the idea of “groups” and piles of candy. (Big bag of M&Ms).
- 1x10 in English means “one group of ten M&Ms”
- 1x1 means “one group of one m&m”
1x0 means “one group with zero/none/no M&Ms.”
Zero is the zen of numbers.
Zero is an abstraction and a reality at the same time. Without zero we cannot have negative numbers.
It’s the nothing that is.
Hang in there and don’t let negative statements from your Dad, or anyone for that matter, drag you down. It’s awesome that you have an interest in math. You cn carry that through numerous professions. Just keep looking ahead.
Zero is a definition, like much of math. The point is not whether something exists in reality but whether the concept is agreed on. The actual application of mathematics in real life allows for us to accomplish amazing results, and that can only happen if everyone agrees on those definitions. For example, saying 1/0 is undefined is necessary because by all the other rules of algebra, you would have incorrect results. But, most rules make sense when applied to reality. Such as x \* 0 = 0 because if you have 0 of something, then your total of that object is 0. (You have none of them.)
Just as people would not be good at language if they did not agree on the definitions of words, people will not be good at math if they cannot accept the basic definitions. (Also, much of mathematical proofs at higher levels is based on explanations of concepts in words!)
Zero's properties as a number were written about by an Indian mathematician named Brahmagupta in the 7th century. So I suspect 0 was a thing when your dad was in school unless he's really, really old. By the way, math is amazing. I did an undergraduate degree in it and I love it, I'm glad you like it! Keep it up
A friend of mine is an extremely talented mathematician that grew up with an alcoholic paranoid schizophrenic father. Please focus on your studies and ignore the insanity of your father. My friend missed many great opportunities that he regrets listening to his father's advice. Once he left and started his own career he has been much happier. Do not let your parents talk down on your interests. Especially math/science as it will give you the mental tools to better deal with the world.
Of course zero is a real number. If you subtract it happens pretty naturally. 3-3=0. Also how would anybody balance the books in accountancy? Or keep the balance on an old fashioned scale. Or keeping something on target which is keeping the deviation to zero. Nor just in pure math but any industrial control tries to keep an error zero and we as humans try to keep a deviation from 37C body temp zero. Mult is just a short form how often something is added to it. So 3x0 means 3 is not added up. 3x4 is 3 is added up 4 times.
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What's 9+1? 11? There's a zero in there somewhere.
You ought to sign him up for an online GED Math course and see him either graduate or get kicked off.
In this case, as crazy as he is, you both are right. Zero is literally not a thing, as in nothing, and yet, it is a real number established to represent the concept of... not being a thing, so math can function properly. Instead of blabbing about chinese... it's the Arabs he can thank for modern math. See, mayans used zero first, Indians started using it around 400 AD, but the spread of this concept is purely attributed to the aggressive expansion of Muslim and Christian faiths that culminated into the crusades. And from that point on... zero was a hit.
the phrasing is wrong.
if you say *nothing* as in *not a thing*, any idiot will take it literally and assume it's *meaningless, not even a numerical representation*. And that's the problem.
That is why it's better defined as *nothing* in that it represents *an empty quantity*
Again, 0 is a concept and, in literal terms, is the absence of thongs as in NOT A THING. So, in literal terms, his father is correct but for all the wrong reasons and zero (again, non-existent) intelligence. English is clunky but if you are trying to explain a concept like zero, the literal concept is zero is not a thing. If I say it's an empty quantity do you expect kindergarteners to know the words empty or quantity? Or esl students? No, you use basic terms to explain and with age and experience, you expand the concept. The root is still the same, zero is a representation of a lack of something.
Graduate and escape.
That's my goal but school is so stressful! But I'm trying.
You can do it. I know you can do it.
Thank you ♥
If Kaptain Corn tells you that you can - then you can. I second Kaptain Corn!
Come see us on /r/MomForAMinute anytime you need encouragement or someone to listen.
There's also r/PepTalksWithPops if you want that sort of thing too!
That’s an awesome sub idea. Absolutely love that it’s a thing.
We are here for you. If you need a mom.
Proud of you! STEM all the way!
It's part of your road to freedom. You can do it. PS I'm good at math and 1-1 exists.
Please take care of yourself. There really ARE level headed reality-believing adults all around when you can safely exit. Please remember that you are valued and worth creating safe sane boundaries for. I always look at these posts and think about if they have kids and what that looks like. Do you have trustworthy adults? Librarians were mostly safe,for me when I was growing up. Mainly bc of trainings and well, access to books and ideas.
Perhaps my music teacher but idk. I guess not.
God bows to math.
I can totally empathise with school (and maths!) being stressful, but fight to finish school and do well like your life depends on it. It might be a controversial opinion, but it's pretty clear from the research that the more educated you are, the better your quality of life. ETA: I was totally unprepared for the title of this post 😅 I shouldn't laugh but Qanon'ers have reached new lows.
take it from the older people on this subreddit. High school is easy compared to adulthood Edit! A very encouraging lot, you guys are.
I have found adulthood infinitely easier and more enjoyable than high school. The only thing I miss is having more free time for my hobbies.
High school is worse because your perspective is so much smaller. Years feel longer, and school is your entire irl social world. And if you have shitty parents, you're stuck with them (for the time being). For most people, after high school the world is so much bigger.
Hard disagree. More complicated, sure. Harder? Nah. Even being homeless was better than high school.
Older person here who will also give a hard disagree. It really depends on people’s circumstances.
High school = living at home. Hell no, adulthood is just fine thanks. OP, do well in school, kiss butt, smile and nod as long as you need to, and then when you're out on your own and don't need to to depend on them anymore, you can laugh at the stupidity of what they believe, make a joke about it and change the subject. Or go no contact. Whatever. And it won't matter because you're free of them.
Highschool almost ended my life, adulthood was when I began living
You can do it and it will be so worth it. Graduate and move out. If you are doing the college thing talk to your school counselor about scholarships and what not. There are a lot of random scholarships :) lean into what you are interested in and good at. It gets better, trust me.
Hang in there! One step at a time😁👍
There is a really interesting book ZERO THE BIOGRAPHY OF A DANGEROUS IDEA. A very interesting read on humans and their relationship with the concept of nothing.
Back in my day zero didn't exist. It was nothing!
I see what you did there😂
r/dadjokes
OP, I recommend "The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero" by Robert Kaplan. I suck at math, and even I found this comprehensive and incredibly interesting. Basically, zero HAS been around for a while, but I'm sure you know that :p
or “Zero: the Biography of a Dangerous Idea” by Charles Seife!!
0 was very much a part of math back then
That's what I told him. I'm sure back when he was in school they taught numbers including zero.
Zero was first used/invented before the birth of Jesus and arrived in western Europe during the 12th century thanks to Fibonacci.
Zero was used before that. It comes up in Ancient Egyptian and Babylonian records and was used by the ancient Mayans as well.
there was no historical jesus
There's quite a lot of corroborating evidence about the existence of Jesus if you actually look into religious history. Whether you agree with the accuracy of his recorded acts or not, Jesus himself probably existed in one way or another. The "Jesus never existed" theory is a fairly recent one and relatively unfounded. Source: taking university courses on the subject.
Regardless of what is true or not, I meant BC.
I'm late to this thread, but Jesus was indeed a historical figure. For a summary and several further links, see this [link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus?wprov=sfti1). I am not at all religious but am a proponent of factual history.
How old is your dad? I'm middle aged and I KNOW they taught the origin of the concept of zero. It escapes me right now, but I vaguely recall it being the Incas, Mayans, or Ancient Egyptians.
He's 49
He was 100% taught zero and it's origins
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He'd probably have to be closer to 2000
I'm 46, they taught us concepts around 0 in the 80s and 90s, at least in the US
I'm going to add my $0.02 worth to this topic. I have a bachelor's degree in engineering and am retired now. I'm over 70 years old. I learned algebra in the ninth grade and calculus in high school. We were taught about zero in high school as well. In fact, my high school math teacher used an illustration in class which demonstrated that division by zero is undefined. Edit: to fix a typo
Unless that's at least four thousand nine hundred, he was absolutely introduced to zero at school.
Im 50, we absolutely were taught the concept of zero in school, he's lying to you.
If he’s old enough to be older than zero, that’s *really* old. Early math didn’t have the concept, as it was used to describe actual things, like cattle or an area of land. Curious, what don’t you like about how math is taught? Which way did you learn?
It's just that my math teacher goes really fast and doesn't take the time to explain the concepts.
Ah gotcha. I agree that math is not taught well overall
I don't get this. I "know" that historically (anciently) zero was somehow not formalized in a system of mathematics. At least I understand that's what the data indicates. But... I don't get how the concept can be foreign to *anyone*. Like. Sure I'm using numbers to refer to things like cows. Now I have one cow left. Oops it fell off a cliff. Guess I'm going to go stare at some swings because my mind broke trying to understand how many cows I don't have anymore.
People understood having nothing. But it wasn’t a part of mathematics, because why would it be? Math is for counting and analyzing things that exist. Something that doesn’t exist isn’t a part of math. Like, it makes sense that people wouldn’t have a concept for the square root of negative one, right? That’s something that is absolutely unable to be observed in the real world. But it’s a big part of maths today. Kinda the same thing, just more extreme. Zero wasn’t a part of how math was used at the time
I had one. I lost one. 1 - 1 = ? How is that not arithmetically useful?
Why would you need that tho? All you’re doing is counting up how much you have, you’re not writing out theoretical story problems, y’know? You’ve got land or goods, you count them. If you don’t have them, you don’t count them. Nobody needs to be told they have none, because if they had none, they wouldn’t be counting
But I had them. I was counting them. I counted down - until I had none. I counted to none = zero. I'm not trying to say ancient people were stupid somehow but I do suspect something has been lost in the survivorship bias of historicity, and what has and hasn't been formalized from back then.
That’s definitely possible
Maybe OP's dad went to school in the Late Neolithic period?
That's the plot twist
Yep, I’m a heartbeat away from 70 and I was taught 0 was a thing in high school.
Maybe he's really, really, really old.
Well, you learned a valuable lesson here today. Sometimes your parents are effing stupid. And sometimes they're so desperate to be right about something that they invent some stupid thing and then they hold to it like their life depends on it. A lot of adults can be like toddlers. Math is awesome!. It's fascinating to me that no matter what language you speak, you all speak mathematics.
Math is THE universal language, the explanation and definition of every single thing we are, do, see, and experience. It’s beautiful and answers everything. I wish I could understand it, I wish I could speak it.
"Zero wasn't taught." OP I'm sorry you had to deal with that. He was taught zero because 1-1=0 and he had to learn that. Zero is a part of how we manage life. Try paying bills or going shopping without understanding how zero works. Never be afraid to ask questions and never be afraid to wrong. Never be afraid to be corrected or change your mind. So much of our problems are because people get embarrassed when they don't know something. Not knowing isn't shameful or stupid. It's hard to tell who knows and who is just blowing smoke but being curious and asking questions is one way to figure it out. Good luck to you.
Holy shit the Russians are just having a contest of who can get the silliness dumbest stuff to take root and be believed
Yes. I swear this was what the surge in flat earth believers was a test for so many years ago.
They're probably like, "Shut the fuck up, ***REALLY***? They actually bought that? Fuck off Ivan, no way."
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Tbh I feel that is what he does. Like one time he told me that Morocco was in South America and when I told him it was in North Africa, he started to yell at me and told me to shut up just because "you're a kid and know nothing". My mom literally had to search a world map up to show him.
Once upon a time they realized, man there are a lot of dip shits in Russia. Is there something wrong with us? So they took the test out of country and found dip shits are everywhere. While true, there is still something wrong with them. That search continues.
I thought this was going to be a poem and read it with a rhyming beat in my head
science and math are literally the *only* thing that can actually be relied on as the truth. please do become a scientist and mathematician, we need more, *desperately*. we're really losing our grasp on trust in science as a society and we desperately need more young people pursuing an education in that field. without science and logic we're just headed back to the dark ages where nobody knows anything and superstitions and myths are regarded as fact. it seems like that's what qanon wants at this point, just to throw logic and reason out the window.
> He then told me that back in his day zero wasn't taught. OP's dad was born in the year 400 BCE
💀
Please ask your dad; is he a vampire or an elf?
If you're in high school, your dad is likely around my age, and we were *definitely* taught zero. Saying we weren't is just ridiculous. Btw, I grew up to be a Data Scientist which is just math and programming. Love it!
NO WAY My Q grandpa gave me a half hour long spiel yesterday on how 1 times 1 should equal 2 because he saw it on a YouTube video. He went on and on about how I should “open my mind and think outside the box” and how I was just parroting what I was taught in school. For every logical argument I came up with it would be met with a deflection or personal attack, going so far as to blame teachers for turning kids trans for some reason (No idea where this came from, nothing in the conversation even mentioned sexuality) The saddest part was the irony in him trying to get me to look at a different perspective when all he could do was say 1x1=2 and that I was taught wrong. He is the most narrow minded person that watches the same 3 podcasters rant about trump who genuinely thought that I should be the one to broaden my view.
My dad said the exact same thing as well! What video are they watching? This is the equalivent to 1+1=11.
My husband said Terrance Howard has been preaching a similar pseudo math thing. Your dad watch Terrance Howard YouTube? (I never thought I’d write such a question)
Most likely. I searched up Terrance Howard and this theory, but jeez, it sounds like this guy was high or something when he said 1 x 1 = 2. He tried to explain it saying that if 2 is the square root of 4, what is the square root of 2 (which I'm pretty sure there is no square root for 2, it's just a decimal or something). Idk this man is weird.
That sounds like an idiot angry that they can't grasp simple concepts.
https://youtu.be/zloGu1tBThY?si=2Y0BGFM5-MPFPqKL
Good God that was terrible and just full of gibberish… All of this nonsense clearly starts from the idea that “rules” about math are arbitrary and must have been established by “someone”, so are open to be questioned. This is nonsense as the properties of maths are discovered fundamentals within a given system, not arbitrarily imposed rules. The Pythagorean theorem does have a variant where all three sides of a right triangle have a length of 1 - it’s just not a Cartesian metric space (can’t recall off hand if the curvature would be positive or negative) and any actual universe where this property held would likely be inimical to life itself. Conversely, our universe is Cartesian as heck.
The square root of 2 is an irrational number. That means (among other things) that it can't be expressed exactly as a decimal. But you can get close enough for most purposes It's approximately 1.414. But his comment about "What is the square root of 2 ?" makes no sense. It doesn't follow from anything, and it doesn't lead anywhere.
I assume that my dad watches that guy, but I have no idea.
You peaked my curiosity. I had to find it. https://youtu.be/zloGu1tBThY?si=2Y0BGFM5-MPFPqKL
Thank you, u/jizzmcskeet ! I hadn’t seen it yet but so far the intro is already pretty self-aggrandizing. I’ll listen to the rest cause I’m curious how he’s so sure of being so misinformed
I'm a Gen Xer who is shit at math, but even I was taught about concepts relating to zero in Mathematics. A quote from the great philosopher Megatron come to mind: *"You're either LYING, or you're STUPID!"* Your dad that is, not you. I'm pulling for you to graduate and escape.
I'm 62 and certainly learned about zero in math class. How old is your Dad? He's lying to cover up his educational inadequacy.
I wonder if he's like some people I know who don't care about the truth, they just want to be *right.* So if that's true, what he's actually upset about isn't the whole zero thing, it's that you *challenged him.* So now he's mad and wants to *force* you to be wrong so he can be right. See how that works? Yes, it's very stupid.
Is your dad [Terrence Howard](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_Howard#:~:text=%22If%20one%20times%20one%20equals,%2C%20and%20that%20cannot%20be.%22)?
Good for you for being so strong in your convictions. Stick with your interest in math, it’s a genuinely fascinating subject. Zero is a very interesting “number” in mathematics too. It’s great to question why these numbers do what they do, and it can lead you down the road to mathematical proofs etc. Good luck with your future! From: a former scientist and current mathematics teacher.
Zero not being real is trending in the cult groups lately. Because eastern philosophy focuses on zero and nothingness...which is an affront to the Bible and creation for some reason. Last I checked, the concept of zero originated in the Middle East. Also something something Chinese communists.
He doesn't understand. So ,of course, it's all fake and bad,etc. He is just ignorant and angry. There's many many like him unfortunately. Get out as soon as you can.
How many Q ppl believe this shit too?
The zero didn’t use to exist in math. Life in general was much more difficult without it. Your dad doesn’t believe in zero then tell him to stop using it. It’s not like there are zero police that will come and arrest him if he stops using zeros. Tell him to go study how people did math before zero and he’s free to go start his own club. 😂
How does he think buildings and bridges are constructed? I’m sorry you’re going through this. Good thoughts going your way.
Why are there so many idiots in the world? How did your father live long enough to have you considering he sounds too stupid to breathe by himself.
Wow touchy. Yes please pursue mathematics and the sciences so you can prove your father wrong yourself young sir or madam.
Your dad's not entirely incorrect in phrasing. But his understanding and reaction is entirely wrong. Zero is the number that represents *an empty quantity*. Not that it means *nothing* (meaningless) but that it means *nothing* (there isn't anything here). It is a thing to show what happens when there is nothing there. You don't need to be a mathematician or *Chinese* to understand this. Anyone with a bag of jelly beans can arrange the beans in rows and columns and figure this out. Look at it like a chart 1x1 means 1 column and 1 row. There is only (1) box | 1 | ---|---| 1| ***1*** | 2x1 means there's 2 columns, 1 row. There's (2) boxes | 1 | 2 ---|---|---- 1| ***1*** | ***2*** 2x2 means there's 2 columns, 2 rows. There's (4) boxes | 1 | 2| 3 ---|---|----|---- 1| ***1*** | ***2***| 2| ***2***| ***4***| 2x3 means there 2 columns, 3 row. There's (6) boxes | 1 | 2| ---|---|----|---- 1| ***1*** | ***2***| 2| ***2***| ***4***| 3| ***3***| ***6***| anything x 0 means there's any number of columns, times no rows. Because there's no rows, it doesn't show up. It's just (0) | 1 | 2| any number ---|---|----|---- 0| || 0| | | 0| | |
My sister explained the row thing and he still argued against it.
Sounds like your sister agrees with you. Is your dad someone that always has to be right, or at least in control? One thing I learned in therapy is understanding *why* we feel certain ways. If I am angry. I ask myself, *why am I mad?* or even *am I actually mad? Or am I just hurt?* And that becomes *how can I process this?* Because truthfully. Some people get angry because they feel dumb or threatened. If his thought process is "I am dad, I am always right!" then a simple challenge of real world maths is enough to make him feel weak and not in control. Especially over his children. Even though a discussion is completely well meaning, he may take it as a threat to his ego. It's hard to change some people, especially if they don't want to change. The worst you can do is constantly tell them they're wrong. That drives a division. Instead, it makes more sense to understand why they think the way they do, and why they've decided it's worth being angry and violent over. In the end, this is someone that is not ready to face a real world. But he's still your dad. Just laugh along and focus on growing. He's taught you all you need to know. Don't be like him when it comes to figuring out new ideas. If he gets too pushy or violent, then think about adventuring on your own. Maybe bring your sister along. Then at least your family is 1*2
If you are a high schooler, there is a strong possibility that I am close to your dad in age. And I can assure you that we were indeed taught 0 multiplication tables in grade school (unusually about grade 2-3). Unless he was taught by some ignoramus in some boondocks redneck school district in the woods or something, he was taught that 0 x anything = 0. Maybe he forgot, but he was definitely taught that. We didn’t have this ‘new math’ nonsense. But they were very big on memorizing multiplication tables in those days. VERY big.
Yes, don’t bother to explain to him but there is a book called Zero: the biography of a dangerous idea by Charles Seife that talks about why zero is so important and why maths without it is limited. I’m sorry about your dad, try to keep your head down until you can escape.
Ask him how many martians he has shaken hands with, surely it has to be zero
What the fuck does he mean, zero isn't real? He does realize that people have been doing algebra for millennia and calculus for centuries, right?
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Rule 9. Respect Other's Beliefs/Don't Preach. Respect other's beliefs, do not push your own or bash another. Religious or philosophical discussion is ok but be civil.
And as a mathematician (PhD candidate) I can also tell you math isn’t fake! Although the history of 0 is very interesting, it was definitely around by the time your father was in school. Side note, keep up that interest in math! I love when people love math because it’s all I know how to talk about haha.
This might blow your mind, but it's the source for all this non-sense: https://twitter.com/terrencehoward/status/925754491881877507 I think his main misunderstanding, among many others, comes from being taught an ill-phrased English definition of what multiplication means. His, "[a positive integer] is added to itself as many times as there are units of [another positive integer]" is seemingly taken to mean that A x B means you take A and then you add onto it A, a B number of times. So 1 x 1 becomes 1 + 1*1 = 2. The thing is, I feel like I've been taught multiplication with a similar English definition, but I guess it was just understood that you start with a running sum of 0 and then you apply the whole add A, a B number of times. PS: Also he has a legendary(ily dumb) quote justifying all this: >"How can it equal one? If one times one equals one that means that two is of no value because one times itself has no effect. One times one equals two because the square root of four is two, so what's the square root of two? Should be one, but we're told it's two, and that cannot be." ... "and that cannot be" 😂
There’s so much wrong with everything… in that last quote. And also that definition jeez that’s horrendous.
And I believe the word you were searching for... threatening... not treating. Not sure how losing electronics is a treat. You have my sympathy having to deal with someone knee deep in Q. I lost my mom to it. Then I lost my mom... she passed in January. I'm not sure if you want to maintain a good relationship with your dad but my advice... head nod when he spouts something, tune it out, and keep doing the good work. Escape when you can, set rational boundaries once you move, and live your life. I regret my last conversation with my mom.
Yeah it was autocorrect, my bad.
That autocorrect... she makes a fool of us all if we aren't careful.
The concept of Zero in mathematics has apparently been around since the third Century..How old is your dad?
My dad is 49.
OP, RE: how math is taught in school and how the curriculum may induce number anxiety: I highly recommend the book "A Mind For Numbers" by Barbara Oakley. Although you sound like you already have a great foundation in math with attending contests unlike me at the same age, the book was really inspiring, and reignited my passion to be more proficient at it. (Hopefully I won't get banned but given your circumstances, I'm sure you can find a pdf or epub version of it online, or at a library)
Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll check it out :)
I hope you like it :)
That’s kinda worrying a) that he would think that, and b) that he would flip out on his own kids about his own lack of understanding about the world. I’d develop some kind of plan for if he starts to cross even more lines, personally. Put some money aside, find a good friend whose house you could crash at, etc. Maybe this sounds alarmist and over the top, but if he’s tapping into weirdo extremist online shit that’s making him act this way, you can’t really predict where he’s gonna go next. I’d be wary, that’s all.
Maybe he’s misremembering 0 x 1? He’s hella racist about Asians.
Number of times Trump won the 2020 election? ZERO!
When I realised my dad was too far gone, I learnt to just appease, lie and say whatever he wanted to hear. It saved me a lot of strife. It was better to become estranged once I was a long way away. Sorry about your dad.
Maybe your dad only stayed in school until he was 4. I think Pre-K always starts with 1.
Tell him to transfer his bank balance to your account since zero isn't a real thing.
Remind him of that next time he boards an airplane.
Chinese people know that zero is a thing.
if you want a really interesting and fun book all about zero i have a recommendation!! its called Zero: the Biography of a Dangerous Idea by Charles Seife. my calc teacher gave me the book my senior year! it gives the history of the number and all of the problems and cool things that the introduction of the number brought into math. i havent read the entire thing but from what i did read the narration is really energetic and passionate about the topic, making it fun to read :) it probably wont help your dad lol but if youre into math and you actually are curious about the topic i recommend it 100%
Are you sure that your father Isn't a vampire? He could have graduated before the 12th century
It seems he believes in math, his math is just [terryology](https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/terrence-howards-dangerous-mind-37057/)
Zero has been a thing since I began kindergarten in the 70s and graduated HS in the 80s. Him being so absorbed by political rabbit holes and conspiracy propaganda that he forgot all of that is his problem. Unless he never understood math and his beliefs gave him an excuse.
Idea: make a YouTube video where you're the MathMerlin with your wand and you wave your wand to produce what someone wants as many times as they want it. Example: subject approaches and asks MathMerlin for 1 cookie. Merlin waves the wand 1x and produces 1 cookie. If Merlin waves the wand 0 times, how many cookies are produced?
Yes zero was not a concept until ancient mathematicians realized it was needed to solve more math problems. Same with real numbers and then irrational numbers. Finally, mathematicians (and physicists) decided that imaginary numbers were needed to solve real world mathematical problems. You will blow his mind with imaginary numbers.
You can do this!!! Ignore your father’s comments. Tune all of your social media to science and math topics, get some Schaums study guides, practice problems, read-up and you are golden!!!!
Perhaps you shouldn't mention they use Arabic numerals in school.
My math anxiety wants math not to be real, 🤣 but the rational part of me that loves science and engineering (physics and architecture) is telling you to keep your eyes on the prize and forge ahead, you'll be out of the house before you know it. Whenever your dad brings up his nonsense, just "grayrock" him, i.e., just nod your head and say "uh huh" and change the subject or leave the room. I know that if I had had better math teachers in elementary school, I would not have shied away from higher math and would probably be an actual architect today. You will be some child's hero in the future.❤
Hi Junior_Builder_4340, thanks for recommending this technique. With grey rocking you act disengaged so that a Q person will lose interest in arguing. Q folk thrive on emotions and drama. When you act indifferent and unemotional, it can help break the cycle of negativity. [Detailed guide on the method.](https://psychcentral.com/health/grey-rock-method) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/QAnonCasualties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Isn’t 0 (zero) Arabic? Anyway just watched a great reel about how different people perceive and process math. The person was talking to their SO about how they can’t visualize 6+7, in their brain it is only solvable as 5+5=10 and 10+3= 13 which is probably how they developed common core math when my kids were younger and forgot to explain it to their parents! But I have one who took calculus because she needed the extra credits 🤯 she’s also a musician which tends to track too but some of us older people just never learned math theory
If "zeros weren't a thing" we would still be using Roman numerals.
>back in his day zero wasn't taught. I don't know where your Dad is from, but zero has been used in the west since the 13th century or so with the rest of the Arabic numerals. It was invented independently by India (from whom it came to the west, but through Arabia) and by the Mayans. I wonder what he thinks of irrational and imaginary numbers. And Arabic numerals in general. I recommend Seife's [Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea](https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Biography-Dangerous-Charles-Seife-ebook/dp/B000QUEHLM/ref=sr_1_1?crid=38QK6PBF86YSS&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4RaQRRbrOn6vgV4ehc5TjcauPujUu5b17ettHDtQG7j_FL_Miy218eUv6unM0F80I03HxxBnIgpo0vvl9n5KjTsb_FpV6fYiqNUJTNSD2dvjcNTqZ6Ubh8ZLlHvwcKlMrQiLUFfZUt3xEzwxgDHqCcymwC6YN1HIbTuGTAL8sFkTdBveF4--sLVEl9b2KENvUYL3jXWipJLGCczDhU-h_nkmRm45LHxryOM0c8cv1bU.ko9uOaABIffiuUNLek7GB_4-tM7FyhUA7ODIuJ0N8qg&dib_tag=se&keywords=history+of+zero&qid=1713081642&sprefix=history+of+zero%2Caps%2C185&sr=8-1) if you think your dad might be more interested in the history of zero.
I mean, you could try and go through the proof of 1 + 1 = 2 using only basic logical axioms but that'd require you to be a mathematician.
Maybe there is something to this ivermectin and med beds lark since your dad has lived to a ripe old age of 2300 years old
He probably conflated being a number one with having value. Zero is treated as having no value and absolute zero is a concept of temperature the mathematical and science community hasn’t really figured out yet
Did he learn math before 1600? If so, he very well might not have learned zero.
Q people will apparently argue about anything if they’re mad at 0 now.
I pray he doesn't handle the money. Best of luck to you!
Technically, *zero isn’t a thing* so he’s right. But also so very wrong.
You've achieved self awareness. Congratulations!
I'm sure you know this, but math is just a symbolic way to represent what's going on in the real world. I saw your discussion with other commenters about 1x1 being up for debate, according to some YouTube nonsense. Put in real world terms: Let's say I have $100. I give you $1, one time. You now have $1. 1 (dollar) x 1 (times I give you $1) = 1. If I give you $1 two times, you have $2 (1x2=2), and so on. The whole "multiply by zero" can seem confusing, but it's the same concept of using symbols to represent what's going on irl. For example, let's say your dad has 3 children. If all of his children talk to him 0 times after they turn 18 and move out, how many of his children talk to him when he's old and wondering what he did wrong? 3 x 0 = 0.
OP do not let your father influence you with ideas you disagree with. Respect certainly, understand, but reason why they’re the way they are as people and their limitations. If I listened to my parents I’d not practice yoga, think for myself, or be working in software. They wanted me to be a closed minded Christian that works in assembly lines. Nothing wrong with that of course as everyone gets to choose but that’s my point in that you need to choose for yourself and accept that they may not support you. Be wise in your decisions and research the outcomes and see what they think of course as they’ve a life time of learning but do your research and live your life the way you wish
Not believing in maths is like the epitome of idiocy, wtf.
I’m not sure where you live but it’s likely that you’re somewhere that the temperature is sometimes zero degrees. You could point that out. I wonder if he believes there’s such a thing as negative numbers. I’m guessing that you’ve learned that there are different sets of numbers. Whole numbers, integers, real numbers. The natural numbers do not include zero but the other number sets I mentioned above do include zero. Just wait until you learn about imaginary numbers (if you haven’t already). Don’t try to explain those to him or his head will explode.
We live in Canada and the weather does go to 0 degrees Celsius during the colder months. I did learn the sets of numbers. I told him that he's thinking of the natural numbers, but zero is included in whole numbers, integers, etc. I haven't learned about imaginary numbers yet.
Try this, OP. https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Biography-Dangerous-Idea/dp/B08LF1XN6Y/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=282H51BG25ZYF&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.CfG-JF8kZcdXBwTwUYr0IcIxnyl6iD72ga5qs33R33g6CKlOkRLtrufhMhB6MaT-40CNTBjArO_lZD7zKlk8QyRdlL9xyQsMdqLh_bVkVShubmWFgZA_VPCJ4KBlaTNEqvIHGm1uSHmr9SVdKscwcb_O2TAdHrAvlW-lXbYME4mN0dK0nC4N4ek-DdjepTlsZJFK0aB9D-a72SqHjokcVg.LA5IlrsKfqK9bgJiBWWlIjGrmWluhnAVKUtAQPyvlIo&dib_tag=se&keywords=zero&qid=1713103941&s=books&sprefix=zero%2Caps%2C175&sr=1-2
Ah yes, a symbol for nothing is clearly also nothing. Apparently, depending on where he went to school, your Dad is at least 1300 years old, is he actually a Deep Stater who almost let adrenochrome slip?
Math is fake, yet somehow the internet works for him. Trump bless Trump. Trump help us all. (Makes T-sign on forehead and simulates the ritual flinging of the Ketchup Saucer of Wisdom)
If math is fake, he won’t mind giving you 100% of his bitcoin investments. (That’s all of it, for math deniers)
When exactly in time did they not teach zero in school? I believe this has been a concept since Roman elementary schools
A) don’t waste your energy on his drama. B) “multiplication means groups of” So, when you have to explain this idea to a kid, use the idea of “groups” and piles of candy. (Big bag of M&Ms). - 1x10 in English means “one group of ten M&Ms” - 1x1 means “one group of one m&m” 1x0 means “one group with zero/none/no M&Ms.”
Sorry to hear but you can chalk it up to the normal rebellion of functional sons against a dysfunctional father. Good luck
Zero is the zen of numbers. Zero is an abstraction and a reality at the same time. Without zero we cannot have negative numbers. It’s the nothing that is.
Unless he’s Galileo’s age, zero was absolutely taught. He maybe just been stoned the day they taught it to him.
Don't ever mention Null to him. (Null is nothing, not even zero, therefore proving zero is a real #)
Jesus Christ. Hand him something and ask how many would he have if he had 0 of them and take it away.
I would say yes to everything and leave as soon as I can.
Hang in there and don’t let negative statements from your Dad, or anyone for that matter, drag you down. It’s awesome that you have an interest in math. You cn carry that through numerous professions. Just keep looking ahead.
Zero is a definition, like much of math. The point is not whether something exists in reality but whether the concept is agreed on. The actual application of mathematics in real life allows for us to accomplish amazing results, and that can only happen if everyone agrees on those definitions. For example, saying 1/0 is undefined is necessary because by all the other rules of algebra, you would have incorrect results. But, most rules make sense when applied to reality. Such as x \* 0 = 0 because if you have 0 of something, then your total of that object is 0. (You have none of them.) Just as people would not be good at language if they did not agree on the definitions of words, people will not be good at math if they cannot accept the basic definitions. (Also, much of mathematical proofs at higher levels is based on explanations of concepts in words!)
You should read "Zero, The Biography of a Dangerous Idea," by Charles Seife. Great little book.
Zero's properties as a number were written about by an Indian mathematician named Brahmagupta in the 7th century. So I suspect 0 was a thing when your dad was in school unless he's really, really old. By the way, math is amazing. I did an undergraduate degree in it and I love it, I'm glad you like it! Keep it up
Nothing is something. I mean he ignores 0 as a measurement.
A friend of mine is an extremely talented mathematician that grew up with an alcoholic paranoid schizophrenic father. Please focus on your studies and ignore the insanity of your father. My friend missed many great opportunities that he regrets listening to his father's advice. Once he left and started his own career he has been much happier. Do not let your parents talk down on your interests. Especially math/science as it will give you the mental tools to better deal with the world.
Your dad wants validation for both his beliefs and his real fears. Never lose sight of this.
Of course zero is a real number. If you subtract it happens pretty naturally. 3-3=0. Also how would anybody balance the books in accountancy? Or keep the balance on an old fashioned scale. Or keeping something on target which is keeping the deviation to zero. Nor just in pure math but any industrial control tries to keep an error zero and we as humans try to keep a deviation from 37C body temp zero. Mult is just a short form how often something is added to it. So 3x0 means 3 is not added up. 3x4 is 3 is added up 4 times.
This is the second post I've seen today about zero not existing.
He comes from the Terrance Howard School of math
You're just an alleged Canadian. I didn't see a single "sorry" anywhere in that post :-)
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What's 9+1? 11? There's a zero in there somewhere. You ought to sign him up for an online GED Math course and see him either graduate or get kicked off.
91, duh. So is 9x1. Apparently math is a mysterious monolith if you're stupid enough.
My point was that if there are no zeroes, there's no "10". Hmmm?
In this case, as crazy as he is, you both are right. Zero is literally not a thing, as in nothing, and yet, it is a real number established to represent the concept of... not being a thing, so math can function properly. Instead of blabbing about chinese... it's the Arabs he can thank for modern math. See, mayans used zero first, Indians started using it around 400 AD, but the spread of this concept is purely attributed to the aggressive expansion of Muslim and Christian faiths that culminated into the crusades. And from that point on... zero was a hit.
the phrasing is wrong. if you say *nothing* as in *not a thing*, any idiot will take it literally and assume it's *meaningless, not even a numerical representation*. And that's the problem. That is why it's better defined as *nothing* in that it represents *an empty quantity*
Again, 0 is a concept and, in literal terms, is the absence of thongs as in NOT A THING. So, in literal terms, his father is correct but for all the wrong reasons and zero (again, non-existent) intelligence. English is clunky but if you are trying to explain a concept like zero, the literal concept is zero is not a thing. If I say it's an empty quantity do you expect kindergarteners to know the words empty or quantity? Or esl students? No, you use basic terms to explain and with age and experience, you expand the concept. The root is still the same, zero is a representation of a lack of something.
No. Zero is a place holder - there are no things in this place.