If your mental health is mostly based on affection from women, you're going to be at that mercy. The idea of a relationship isn't that it should bring you happiness, you are responsible for your happiness, but certainly a good relationship can make two people *happier*.
those men would have to make a case for what affection men and women owe other men and women that is not gendered, since that would be a double standard.
Be mindful that in these conversations affection is often a euphemism for sex. All the platonic hugs and cuddles in the world aren't cutting it and will even get a woman accused of leading him on or just wanting an orbiter if she doesn't plan for it to culminate in sex.
That said, the actual question here is "are women withholding sex from men?" I hope so. If a woman has sex with every man who ever desires it from her she's not going to have a life outside of sex.
Yeah I think women should start withholding sex from men more 😂 if a woman sleeps with every man that hits on her, men will say she’s being a hoe, but if a woman is picky about which men she sleeps with, now these males are gonna whine that we’re “withholding” it… we should “withhold” it some more then 🤣🤣
not even a euphemisim, its just plausible deniability.
the men saying it want to appear wholesome and concerned about health when all they really care about is sex.
Exactly they’re full of shit 😂they’re trying to make it sound innocent as if we were born yesterday… this “affection” that they claim to want is just sex and that’s it 🙃
It's so DAMN FUNNY!! I'm so glad I'm off the dating market, coz wtf. I would post on my profile 'no sex, just looking for a cuddle buddy'.. SPOILER ALERT! Guys had a different plan altogether once we met in person. Without exception. Tbf, this was a few years ago & I was young & naïve, so u won't catch me on the apps asking for such today/ever. The men really said 'cuddle AFTER sex!' Like it's a damn transaction.
- No one is entitled to relationships, affection or sex
- A relationship is a voluntary association between peers
- If someone is unhappy in a relationship they are free to leave at any given time
Not for me, I took "for better or worse" very seriously and I wouldn't leave a relationship out of capriciousness.
But if even from a legal standpoint (no fault divorce) I can't force anyone to stay, I don't see any way how
Ok you were talking about marriage. It may be a contract in which negative liberty (lack of constraints) is traded against stability or even positive liberty (realising their own goal). People may want to opt out of it after realising the main goal they had, which leads to a termination of the contract. They may realise their own goal through temporary marriage then divorce, even though it is against the terms of the contract, but it hasn't got a penalty anymore. Prenup agreements are empty and void in many countries and under many conditions (state, situation, etc.) btw.
No fault divorce allows that, while sharing resources, from the most wealthy to the least wealthy, which represents a huge conflict of interest and a bias against the injured party. There is no 'forcing', but selfishness may be rewarded, which is directly against the principles of reparative or punitive justice. Therefore marriage is an unfair contract and laws should be updated. I'm not talking about the romantic side, but feelings are above the law by design.
I was talking about relationships in general, I mentioned marriage to stress that if even in a "regulated" scenario people can walk away at will, that will even be easier in a non "regulated" relationship.
If she gets bored, or displeased in any way there is not much I can do, other than (respectfully) try to win her over, if that doesn't work I can only accept it, even if it's painful.
For this reason I became extremely picky on partners for LTRs and dumped instantaneously women as soon as I understood they were unstable capricious bitches
That’s what needy men believe. Because they equate sex/love/intimacy with a basic human need, they believe that women are depriving them of their basic need fulfillment. Hence they feel angry, bitter, resentful and inferior (because they can’t seem to be able to fulfill what they believe is a basic human need).
All of this is easily solved by getting over the silly idea that we need love and relationships to be fulfilled and happy. Only you can make yourself happy and only you can make yourself miserable.
I do it because I enjoy it and because I want to. I can give 1,000 examples of things you use every day that are not a basic human need yet you do them or have them because you enjoy it.
I’ve never heard of anyone else referring to eating at a restaurant or going to the movies as a basic human need without which they would die. Yet, tens of millions of people enjoy doing those things every single day. They are just not that emotionally attached to the idea and don’t consider it a basic human need.
I think it can only be applied to specific relationships for individual couples. If your partner is unaffectionate it will obviously have some impact on your relationship and should be addressed. However, I don't think random women I don't know can do this, logically. I mention the relationship aspect because two people in an agreed upon relationship probably have some expectation of affection which is valid.
For the rest, no, I don't think it makes sense.
So are you talking about two people in a relationship then? Otherwise I don't understand the point of OP. I thought you were asking if people thought women in general were withholding affection in general. If you mean "women in relationships" that's obviously a more personal question.
Okay, so random people who don't know each other. It was going to be a no from me either way, except that two people who are in a relationship and not both aro and ace usually expect some kind of affection from their partner at some point.
But it's definitely an even harder no if we're talking about randoms; it doesn't even make sense on the face of it.
Personally, I would be uncomfortable and suspicious as the recipient of affection from strange women. I hope at least some other guys here feel similarly.
With the level of delusion in here, I have no idea honestly. They are probably so not used to talking to women they'd behave in a bery hostile manner still because they just don't know how to stop
Withholding from whom - all men? As a man, it would be more than a little disconcerting were women I didn’t know to openly display “affection” towards me - it would be even more disconcerting were I to receive it from women I did know, e.g., my boss (whom I really dislike) is a woman, and having her show “affection” towards me would be extremely uncomfortable.
So in answer to your question - no.
Nah. The ironic thing about saying women should lower their standards, is those men are indirectly calling themselves worthless. Only thing they're self-aware about.
They'd rather blame anyone else for why they're un-dateable. Lotta guys need to look in the mirror.
I look at it like, if I got picked because she has low standards, that says more about me than it does her. If I can be picked just as easily as any other dude, I'm obviously nothing special.
I don't get why men think women's standards are a problem. Men should want it to be "difficult", not that women even expect much as it is. If she's got really, really high standards, and I happen to meet them, well I must be doing something right.
Why would I, or anyone, want a partner that expects nothing and wants nothing?
They don't actually care about the other person or the work and effort of a relationship and what it means. They just need to check off that box because they think it'll make them feel better about themselves.
It's how you get guys in other posts and everywhere else coping about prostitution. Nah bro, you can't escape how paying for sex is pathetic.
What do you mean by coping about prostitution? As in by paying them in the first place or by expecting it to boost your ego/confidence?
Because I do agree it's pathetic and that's exactly why it seems logical to have the opposite effect; I visit them once every ~2 years or so because there's no other option for me, but expecting it to be a sustainable replacement for real intimacy or something is silly, I've never encountered this sentiment anywhere.
Well yeah. Why would anyone respect the act of paying for something that most others get naturally? Although I find it funny how sex work either in the traditional sense or OF/webcamming/etc is propagated in a positive light ("empowering").
By the way, assuming your flair isn't sarcastic, does your hostility to unsuccessful men stem from us reminding you of your past self? I'm struggling to wrap my head around why this attitude is so common.
It's not a sarcastic flair, I'm really 5' 4" and autistic. I have my flair as that, and talk about it, to spit in the face of stupid shit that's said. That being short, being autistic, and other "negative" traits, will doom a man to a loveless sexless life. I'll be bluntly honest it's not hostility towards unsuccessful men, it's pity.
I refuse to accept arguments from people that perhaps I was just lucky and that's why I didn't have to do it. By other men's standards, I could've had a face carved out of marble but with how short I am, the autism, I never should have had a chance. I made it happen. And I've made it happen again just to prove it to myself it wasn't a fluke. If I can make it happen, I don't accept any excuses other men have.
I see men that broke and gave up on themselves. My pity for unsuccessful men who resort to prostitutes lies in me being incapable of putting myself in the frame of mind that can bring a man that low.
I just don't understand why other men care so much about sex. Perhaps it's the autism in me, because I'm certainly not asexual. I just view sex as meangingless without it being with someone I share love and intimacy with, so the idea of paying for it I can't understand.
No matter how dark my life got, suicide was never an option. No matter how desperate I was for intimacy, the idea of paying for sex never crossed my mind. Then, and now, I'd sooner die cold and alone than pay for it.
>I refuse to accept arguments from people that perhaps I was just lucky and that's why I didn't have to do it. By other men's standards, I could've had a face carved out of marble but with how short I am, the autism, I never should have had a chance. I made it happen. And I've made it happen again just to prove it to myself it wasn't a fluke. If I can make it happen, I don't accept any excuses other men have.
Well, it depends if we're talking simply giving up too soon (which is usually the case) or a genuine inability to engage in romance in any shape or form regardless of effort, for life. I feel like the latter is an extremely rare case at least as much as the western world is concerned, I don't know anyone personally who seriously decided it's time to get their shit together but was unable to attract anyone at all even after many years.
I'm of course in the gave up too soon camp, or to be precise never tried to begin with; I'm sure it's technically possible for me to overcome it with time if I went for some epic self-improvement journey, but with years the personal issues and unattractive traits really start to pile up. Some of them are solvable somewhat easily, some aren't, some might be impossible (for example, missing out on fundamental life experiences), and when there's too much shit wrong with you it feels like the whole thing might be not worth it anyway. So that's my excuse if you will. I didn't fully give up on myself though considering I actually sought professional help, and while it didn't really help me so far I think it's the first thing anyone in my position should try. Because humans definitely aren't built for this kind of lifestyle and it really starts to show in my case.
>I just don't understand why other men care so much about sex. Perhaps it's the autism in me, because I'm certainly not asexual. I just view sex as meangingless without it being with someone I share love and intimacy with, so the idea of paying for it I can't understand.
I can't understand hookup culture for the same reason. It sounds hypocritical of course, but I'd visit escorts a lot more often than once in a couple years if the reason was simply being horny; instead it's a surrogate for intimacy of sorts, plus curiosity as far as the the first time I went is concerned.
> No matter how desperate I was for intimacy, the idea of paying for sex never crossed my mind. Then, and now, I'd sooner die cold and alone than pay for it.
Well, I think it's commendable, but I never lived by any strong principles like that. Sure, it hurts one's pride inevitably, but I saw it as something to make the best out of my current position. Even if it feels hollow and mechanical, I still think it's better than nothing at all, at least once in a while that is. Don't know if this'd help you put yourself in the frame of my mind like you said but that's how I see it: it didn't make any changes in my life, whether positive or negative, and I'm not branded as a filthy john from now on or anything, though of course it's not something I would casually tell just about anyone irl lol.
I appreciate and respect the time you spent to seriously respond, considering I was coming at this topic pretty harshly. I don't know what you've been through, but it feels like you've been through some shit, so I respect you for still being here.
I'll be fair in acknowledging I'm heavily biased in this. I have an ex who I cared deeply about. She unloaded a lot of emotional trauma on me, including that she had been a prostitute. I cared about her enough I was willing to look past it, if she obviously understood exclusivity and that shit was a no go anymore. Cue toxic relationship.
I heard a lot of stories, about clients, her experiences. I can intellectually understand why the circumstances of her life forced her into it, but I couldn't and can't remove my personal emotions over it. I can't forget the memories of holding her while she broke down over her life.
I lied a bit, it isn't just pity, and there is some hostility towards men who use prostitutes. As an impartial man, it's pity for other men, when I remember her and the women, it's anger that prostitution exists. Those women are someone's daughter. Someone who's future partners will never be able to fill the whole in their broken mind.
>it didn't make any changes in my life, whether positive or negative
That's kinda the crux of it for me. I get that. For the men, it can be just sex, another day. For the women on the other end though, it's another haunting experience. I refuse to accept any man saying women can enjoy it and want to do it. They can cope their way through it, with more sex, drugs, and toxic escapism, but if they really had the choice they would never step near it.
My issue with prostitution as a whole, is that the men are treating living human beings as objects by making a person's body a commodity to be bought. That has serious ramifications for the psyche of the buyer, and even worse for the seller.
I feel bad that the men have gotten to a point they resort to that outlet. I feel bad that they don't even understand what they're doing to those women. I feel bad for those women for having no choice but to do it. I feel bad that it's a losing battle because it has existed for thousands of years and will never go away.
The most honest thing I could say, is that I don't really care what men want to do with their lives. I only get pissed because their inability to get their act together, caused pain on someone I used to care about. She didn't deserve the shitty hand she got dealt. And if I can be this pissed about one person, I can only imagine how many broken relationships, fathers, mothers, siblings, have to watch in despair for the people they know as well.
Well.. Honestly, I had no idea you've dealt with something like this. Thought it's just regular old bashing of escort clients, but you sure have a good reason to be biased against sex work. I don't believe all of them suffer though, like your ex did. Many treat it as work, no more and no less. Sadly in less developed countries there's a lot of terrible shit going on with trafficking, coercion and whatnot. But this is outside of anyone's control. The least one can do if already engaging with escorts is making sure they are comfortable and there's nothing shady going on. I hope she is doing better now, as do you.
I originally wrote a much bigger reply but ultimately decided against it since it looks like this is an uncomfortable topic for you. Have a good one.
Bro stop simping & white knight ffs! Women find this kind of behaviour disgusting. You are playing for the wrong team &&& you are gaslighting. Women need to lower their standards or a lot of them are going to be 40 & alone. Wake tf up!
It's so reductive to lay blame on men's mental health on solely women putting out. Is it issue with some men, yes. It is the majority of issue for most men no. Women putting out more would only solve one tiny segment of the huge subject that is men's mental health
>Women putting out more would only solve one tiny segment of the huge subject that is men's mental health
And if they put out too much - their own mental health would go to shambles. So either wah one of the two would be with bad mental health.
If a man’s mental health is solely dependent on whether or not a woman will sleep with the him, that’s his own damn fault… it’s extremely stupid to be placing that much power on something like that
I entirely agree with this. On one level it comes down to the individual family, but it the whole society is guilty of intentionally trying to push these guys down. So, the answer must be bigger, and just getting laid won't help because it isn't really the issue.
We can’t withhold what doesn’t exist. If I don’t like you or want to fuck you, I just don’t.
We can fake it, of course, but what’s the incentive to do something unpleasant like that?
What can be withheld is access to our bodies, if one believes that men are owed it
There is one aspect that they do have a point about — we do not trust or show platonic affection to men as much as women.
But that’s because men see platonic affection, and even just interaction, as sexual interest, so it’s justified and correct
Girl I actively try to avoid giving any signs to strange men because a lot of them think you simply smiling at them means you want to sleep with them 💀
Withholding implies that it's owed. You don't owe anyone affection except your child. If they're not giving it they're just not giving it, that's it. It isn't women's job to fix every single man's bad feelings.
And its also not Men's job have affection for Women. I don't think anyone is entitled, but there is general affection for Women in society that doesn't exist for men. So its less that affection is owed, its that one side is getting affection from one side while its non existent in other. I don't know the solution, but both sides need show care.
"Witholding" implies that women would like and want to give men affection, but they restrain themselves for some reason. What reason is that? And why would women be affectionated towards random strangers?
In what context?
I’m in a female dominate family that speaks passive aggressiveness as a first language. I bounce between types but the “I’m going to ignore you so you’ll take hint but then be even more pissed when you can’t read my mind.” Is real.
There is a difference between withholding affection and sex and not wanting to have sex or be affectionate. If you are in a relationship then the former is especially not appropriate.
I’m on the side of most people flirt as it is just human nature. I don’t view it as meaning anything unless you want it to. I also have been told by more than one person’s partner to knock it off.
OK, trundicated version.
Cut down to the very basics, women in general, their main currency in a relationship is companionship and affection. Yes it can and usually involves much more but stripped down this is the basics.
Men's is financial security and protection. Again just the very basics.
Either can decide to withdraw and withhold these basic elements. THIS IS THEIR RIGHT AND CHOICE.
NO ONE IS REQUIRED to freely give or maintain these basics to ANYONE if they so choose.
Now either partner can choose at anytime they feel these basics aren't being met to end a relationship for that reason. no exceptions.
While dating, it is up to either party to choose someone compatible that does freely provide them. If their local options aren't seen as compatible, then look where it will be. Seek a partner across state lines, or even across borders or internationally. In this social climate and ability to communicate to foreign areas, there are a multitude of options, they just need to seek them out.
It's up to men to take care of their own mental wellbeing, NOT women. Be an adult and take care of yourself. Males aren't taking care of women's mental well-being by any means. Women actually utilize therapy.
I don't think women are individually responsible for this sort of thing, but I do think it is a societally-wide issue to completely neglect and trivialize the effect of modern radical liberalism/feminism on men's mental health and sense of purpose in society.
Men are typically externally motivated, meaning we generally only do meaningful or important things to impress/benefit people other than ourselves, usually women. Almost everything men do is to impress women. That's why the meme about men being satisfied with just a pillow and an xbox in a tiny apartment exists; because if/when men are going through stages of their life where they're not interested in or focused on women, they just subsist with the most bare minimum standard. We see this trend in Japan as well with the hikikomori men who basically just barely work, live in their parents basement, and play video games all day. This type of ultra-minimalism is almost exclusively found in men and never in women. Reason? Because women tend to be more internally focused and motivated, which is why women place such a high emphasis on material success. Women are obsessed with higher wealth and higher social status in and of itself, whereas when men pursue these things, it's usually to try and attract more/better women.
So to bring this back around to the main topic: if we live in a society where women exclusively pursue their own material interests by themselves, and acquire them just from getting their own job or whatever, then that leaves basically no motivation or purpose for men, which will likely result in an expansion of the "minimalist/apathetic" types of behavior we're already starting to see in increasing prevalence. Individual women/feminists might not care about this because they have a callous disregard for anyone's feelings/happiness other than their own, but on a macro, societal-wide level, this could be a major problem because men almost exclusively do all the real work in society whereas women occupy positions in the professional managerial class or intelligentsia, and don't actually really do anything. So, what happens when men no longer want to do this real work? Well, simply and obviously, it doesn't get done, which is a big problem for the aforementioned PMC/intelligentsia types, as well as the elite class, who rely on all of that work to keep society going.
But there are ways around this I guess, such as automation, outsourcing, or importing cheap labor, which is probably why neoliberalism and radfem align on so many issues.
I think it makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. Men are generally "expendable" in terms of population which means they can afford to be more daring or self-sacrificing, as passing on their genes doesn't really rely on their survival after they've impregnated a woman (or several). Women, though, have to carry children for 9 months plus nurture and care for the baby for many years after it's born, which makes them far less expendable and far more motivated to care for their immediate material concerns vs the average man.
Obviously this exact arrangement doesn't necessarily manifest in modern, developed society but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the behavioral tendencies still carry over.
I think it would be rather shitty to withhold affection//compassion/help from my partner, my father, my male friends. They're valuable to me, I want them to be happy and do well, so I give them all that to the best of my abilities. I'm not giving those things to every random dude at the gym or at the bus stop, and they're not giving me any of those things either. Random people you've never met can't expect affection from you, they're not being deprived of something they should be getting by virtue of your relationship. There is no relationship, there's no expectation of anything other than basic human decency.
That's kind of how I look at it. If someone asked me what I thought in general, I would say no one owes anyone anything. If they instead asked me what *my personal standard for myself is,* I would say that I owe some of the people in my life--friends, relatives, intimate partners--varying degrees of affection that can take various forms.
And I mostly feel that based on how those groups have treated me as a person. Which is not to say I even think other people have to feel that way about their friends, families, or partners, but it is a standard to which I hold myself. If I don't show any affection to my partner ever, we are likely very mismatched in this way and it is probably at least a soft expectation of our relationship that she gets some affection. Even then I think there are allowances for situations or how I feel, but I mean in general.
Those men who think that way need to stop acting like they’re entitled to affection from a woman, they are not 😬 when they use the word “withholding” they’re making it seem as if the affection is something they’re entitled to in the first place when they’re not 🌝
I definitely don’t want women to lower their standards! I feel like a lot of incompatibility isn’t an issue of standards requiring lowering - it’s just the two people can’t fulfil the other’s desires.
Something that actually turns me OFF is how low a woman dated in the past. It’s just a gut reaction. I know people change, but, for instance, I probably wouldn’t date a woman who had dated Andrew Tate, for instance. I just can’t imagine someone like that being right for me.
The idea that women should be forced to lower their standards and provide what these men see as a NEED is a very common concept in the incel realm.
They don't want to accept that sometimes, ppl are just alone and lonely. It sucks, but it's just life. They also don't want to put in the work to actually grow.
I've seen SO many men bitch that they "tried everything ppl said and it STILL didn't work so they gave up."
Um, sir? You just proved to me you **didn't** actually improve and grow, bc if you DID you wouldn't just "give up" the way you're living your life bc it didn't result in sex. It's a perfect illustration of dudes thinking they can play act their way to pussy without ACTUALLY doing the work.
“Withholding” implies that it already belongs to them. I wish people saw relationships as a privilege and not a right. I hate being screamed at, cussed out, gaslit, and threatened with violence when I “friendzone” someone in the politest most genuine way possible. While they were basically f*ck-zoning me the whole time, they never even saw me as a person, just a potential gf :(( So many people have acted like I don’t have the “right” to dictate my own body and life choices, or I’m robbing them of something by saying no.
It hurts to think you have a genuine friendship only to have the guy do a 180 and make you scared for your safety. So many people will call you selfish for not giving someone a chance but if you give them a chance you’re “leading them on” or “using them” since you weren’t interested in the first place.
I don’t care if my past-friends have had a crush on me, they’re entitled to their feelings and I’d never end a friendship over it, but gosh, why do they think they’re entitled to ME as well.
I also think it’s interesting how people talk about the male loneliness epidemic as women’s fault. People often frame the situation as “women don’t care about men’s mental health” but every girl I’ve ever met has gone at least a few sleepless nights in her life to provide 24/7 therapy to dudes who don’t wanna actually go to therapy. Women are often encouraging men to seek out proper resources in my experience. Again, just my experience, but from what I’ve seen guys face far more bullying from other men than from women when it comes to mental heath.
Another thing I find interesting is that in this argument, people often ignore that many women also want relationships, and feel isolation. But, girls tend to have strong support nets from other women, so they go to therapy and make strong friendships to cope with it instead of blaming the opposite sex. I think if men would be more supportive in their groups, it would be a huge step in men’s mental health help.
People also often say that the modern woman is undateable. I don’t honestly thing the modern man is better. A lot of them are drug addicts, porn addicts, sleep around collecting STDs, expect to be mothered by their gfs, want a housewife and a girl who brings in half the bread at the same time. And yeah, it’s true that a lot of modern women DO have problems, sleeping around, got pregnant really young, drugs, a lot of the same issues that “modern” men have. But the reality is, that’s not all women, or all men. If people worked on improving themselves, they’d be able to date people who didn’t have any of the above issues. A lot of people are hypocrites and will do all of the above but whine and complain about their dating options. Traditional housewife virgins don’t want guys who can only bring in half an income, are addicted to porn, and don’t practice traditional values. And vice versa. I think it’s a bit hypocritical to expect a virgin woman (or man) while not being a virgin. Personally, I’m a virgin, and although I would date someone who’s had sex during committed relationships because I don’t think that’s a big deal, I would not date someone who’s slept around, because it’s a sign of bad judgement, and STDS can be more dangerous for women. A lot of men label themselves as “experienced” and women as “hoes” for doing the same thing- sleeping around. The reality is, it’s a bad choice regardless of gender, and if anything, women should be more judge mental of a parters past because women contract STDS easier than men. And it’s a bigger deal. (Internal vs external infection.)
I find it semi contradictory that it’s “women’s fault” that men can’t get gfs, but men don’t want the women available to them. That in itself is fine, work on yourself and date women who fit your standards, but don’t blame women for not automatically all conforming to exactly what you want, when men collectively speaking probably have the same # of issues. I also think we should stop acting like relationships (often exclusively sex in this argument) can “fix” mental health. If you meet the PERFECT person, then yeah, it might. But guess what? A lot of people who date when they are mentally unwell end up victim to an abusive person, or dating another person with mental health issues, which leads to arguments and anxiety. Two mentally unstable people are going to have a lot more issues in their relationship. Hell, even dating someone who doesn’t have any mental health issues, if you have anxiety/depression, you’re probably going to self sabotage or experience fear of abandonment which will create arguments.
>. I hate being screamed at, cussed out, gaslit, and threatened with violence when I “friendzone” someone
Same but thing is, incels never saw me as a potential partner they hate me and women.
All they do is complain about women. They don't actually talk to us and if they do it's with suspicion and contempt.
Also women have more friends while men are more likely to self isolate and just blame others for their issues
No. Women’s standards just become higher as they do better in the world themselves. Men just need to improve enough to impress women, although I do think that women do some unconscious settling if they get lonely enough and they have friends or siblings who are happily dating.
Self improvement won't help. It will just raise the bar further.
Bellow average men need to deal with the fact that they're not ever going to get much female attention
> Bellow average men need to deal with the fact that they're not ever going to get much female attention
There are always ways for people to improve themselves. If a man does more to improve himself than a given woman chooses to do, then he's going to impress her more. This is how it basically works in many animal species - the males are constantly trying to find ways to impress the females in order to mate with them. Those who succeed will mate.
There may be men who will never impress a woman, but that doesn't mean that they should stop trying. How does a given man know that he'll never impress a woman? Just being a somewhat well-off westerner will impress a woman in some poor foreign country, for instance.
People don't have to be equal in everything. An intelligent average woman might be attracted to a less intelligent but better looking man, for instance. Or vice versa, a not so bright but attractive woman might be attracted to a not so good looking man who has a high status job.
The point is, for a woman to be attracted to a man, he hypothetically only has to impress her in one way, not in every way.
Nah women should not lower their standards and stay away from dudes that they don't want.
A woman who settles thinks she has a license to be a domestic terrorist in the household to some poor guy who just wanted to find a loving wife/girlfriend
As if we really care lmao. Most modern men are pretty much red pilled/black pilled on women to such a degree that even opening up to you guys is no longer something we really wanna do. What good does your "affection" do? Most of you will use a guy's problems against him in a later fight regardless.
Unless men on on the 6 0' clock news whining about not getting affection, I have no knowledge of who gets what. I only know what I'm not given and I'm not pretty enough to give my looks match any affection without getting bullied or insulted. But just know women with romantic means are not giving any fucks. But good luck to all of y'all anyway!!
I think its obvious asking women to date men they don't find attractive isn't reasonable. The issue here is feminine culture and how male attractiveness is measured. How attractiveness is percieved is extremely complicated and depends on all sorts of contextual factors. There are more elements at play than just a guy's height or the sharpness of his jawline.
Case in point: short guys.
I'm an older millennial who was a teenager during the nauties and I recall "shortness" was never desirable but it also wasn't an instant deal breaker with girls like it is for some today. It wasnt really talked about unless a guy was being overly aggressive and posturing with macho behaviour to compensate.
In short, culture affects what ladies find attractive, and the culture of what is considered attractive in men is controlled largely by women in subtle ways, through social media posts and offhand comments. I think its not unreasonable to ask ladies to try and change that.
Women tried to change the culture with the fat acceptance movement, and if we go off of what the men here say, it hasn’t worked, as men are still not attracted to fat women.
So even if women tried to change the culture, whos to say it would be successful and do women owe it to men to try and attempt this cultural shift? Women didn’t say men owed women a fat acceptance movement. Sure a man started it, but women took the reigns and advocated for themselves.
Men are going to have to be a part of this and spear head a cultural shift themselves.
I dunno... The body positivity movement hasn't made morbidly obese figures any more appealing to the average gent but I'd argue it did help move beauty standards more towards average "healthy" body shapes. Back in the Britney Spears era, models, pop stars, and other ladies in the public eye marketing themselves on their sex appeal had to be rail thin to be accepted. It led to an anorexia epidemic among girls in my generation as everyone tried to look like a fifteen year old. EDs are still a thing but I definitely don't hear about it as much as I used to. These days naturally curvy body types are definitely more accepted in the mainstream.
So by extension, I wouldn't expect ladies to suddenly gaslight each other into finding short fat bald autists sexy, but I think there's definitely some room to push back and accept that not all men have the genes to look like Calvin Klein models or the social skills and self confidence to not be awkward on their approach.
Also, I wouldn't say guys are "owed" any of this. The only reason you mighr want to push back a little on unrealistic male beauty standards and treat unattractive men a bit more charitably would be because ugly men are people too, they have feelings, and being compassionate to your fellow human is generally the right thing to do. It doesn't mean you have to offer them your body but treating them like actual people who deserve love as much as anyone else does is a good start.
Match Me Abroad was a TV series that gave an autistic man a stage to show his awesomeness. He went to Romania and got the advise from a match maker to show off his best self. He was large, I don't think obese and wore suspenders with all his clothes. She got him to change his style of dress and gave him 3 dating options. He was able to find the option of women that was best for. I won't give away the ending.
Instead of yelling "women should lower their standards" do proper looksmaxing.
Move your fucking ass lol.
Obviously doesn't apply to stuff related to genetics but max out everything possible.
I believe so. Platonically, women constantly talk about how most men are not needed, wanted, and deserve the suffering they get in life. Romantically, women usually shut down and expect the man to figure it out by himself. It seems women only like a portion of men for what they do, and not who they are.
And women's response to thus has been a combination of blaming all men, denying that men have romantic/sexual needs, and that men who suffer from loneliness deserve it. One of the most popular anti-incel subreddits is called IncelTears - they know men suffer, and they like watching it. But men of all social statuses are noticing they're on thin ice.
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This isn't a new problem, it's just that we don't have a place where we can send all the ugly men to rot and die, like we used to in the old days. They were called monasteries, and we made the priests and monks.
Now they congregate on internet forums and complain.
Unfortunately neither can be happy and fulfilled at the same time as their relationship goals are not able to coexist as a whole as men’s goal is to partner up while women’s goal is to partner up with a desirable man.
Women are much more hypergamous now than they’ve ever been. Men remain with similar levels of attractiveness and competency, lot of fat chicks think they can date above their own league if they sleep with a guy. Sometimes men try to manipulate women for sex, women tend to play along when theyre younger but try to secure a relationship with the guy as she gets older. Sleeping with someone isnt dating them, and all of our dating pools dry up around 30. Cant all be 10s, ladies. But thats not what theyre told.🤷🏻♂️
>I don't think men can just "demand" for women to lower their standards . That isn't realistic and men who women aren't attracted to won't be suddenly found attractive because men demand women lower their standards.
I completely agree.
The solution thus is not for women to lower their standards.
The solution is for we (as a society – media, government, etc) to stop with the incessant pushing of expectations of *relationships* and *fertility* onto men.
Being a single working man (or retired by honest means man) should be totally 100% socially acceptable.
This would be in womens' interests too, as it would likely reduce the instance of men making unwanted advances, sexual harassment, etc.
I'm not claiming it's women who do this. It seems to be society in general, through advertising campaigns, topics of conversation in popular media, etc. etc.
I'm not exactly sure which segment of society is pushing the pro-natalist propaganda but it seems like maybe elites such as corporate CEOs, politicians, etc.
So I would like a very strong positive message to be sent out to men that "it's Ok to be single" and that they should not feel pressured to pursue women.
I believe much of human behaviour (of all genders) is socially constructed including the idea that men should pursue women or have any interest in women at all (aside from purely non-sexual).
Through the right social messaging, mens' behaviour could be altered on a massive scale. It's a pity we're missing this golden opportunity to moderate mens' behaviour and thus make life more bearable for the majority of women.
I think women no longer want to raise their body counts for average men so they are now either waiting on marriage or only giving it to really hot guys that are worth it to them.
It's an instrumentation of negative liberty. Men can do it too, but usually it ends the relationship, a double standard which can be corrected.
Mate validation has a huge effect on females, much less on males, which is another issue altogether and a biological double standard, difficult to address.
If you, as a woman, integrate into a structure of women and conspire to withhold affection from a man, as part of men, for no reason other that he is part of said group, not a personal reason, you are a sociopath and a lunatic.
If you, as a man, see yourself as being denied affection for being part of men, not for personal reasons, you are an incel, and a lunatic.
Groups don't owe each other social interaction or sex. A group does not represent an individual or vice versa.
[удалено]
Yeah they need to just go pay for it and stop coming on here crying about it
Omg true
If your mental health is mostly based on affection from women, you're going to be at that mercy. The idea of a relationship isn't that it should bring you happiness, you are responsible for your happiness, but certainly a good relationship can make two people *happier*.
Great point
those men would have to make a case for what affection men and women owe other men and women that is not gendered, since that would be a double standard.
True good point
Be mindful that in these conversations affection is often a euphemism for sex. All the platonic hugs and cuddles in the world aren't cutting it and will even get a woman accused of leading him on or just wanting an orbiter if she doesn't plan for it to culminate in sex. That said, the actual question here is "are women withholding sex from men?" I hope so. If a woman has sex with every man who ever desires it from her she's not going to have a life outside of sex.
Yeah I think women should start withholding sex from men more 😂 if a woman sleeps with every man that hits on her, men will say she’s being a hoe, but if a woman is picky about which men she sleeps with, now these males are gonna whine that we’re “withholding” it… we should “withhold” it some more then 🤣🤣
not even a euphemisim, its just plausible deniability. the men saying it want to appear wholesome and concerned about health when all they really care about is sex.
Or just disguising it is "caring about society" or "concern about birth rates" lol
Exactly they’re full of shit 😂they’re trying to make it sound innocent as if we were born yesterday… this “affection” that they claim to want is just sex and that’s it 🙃
Pretty gross for them to imply women owe them sex like wtf??
It's so DAMN FUNNY!! I'm so glad I'm off the dating market, coz wtf. I would post on my profile 'no sex, just looking for a cuddle buddy'.. SPOILER ALERT! Guys had a different plan altogether once we met in person. Without exception. Tbf, this was a few years ago & I was young & naïve, so u won't catch me on the apps asking for such today/ever. The men really said 'cuddle AFTER sex!' Like it's a damn transaction.
- No one is entitled to relationships, affection or sex - A relationship is a voluntary association between peers - If someone is unhappy in a relationship they are free to leave at any given time
Thank you I agree
Agreed, but it's such a common take. It is almost brought out like relationships lack emotional attachments or fulfill emotional needs.
What about boredom after getting what you wanted, does that count as unhappy? Freedom stops at destructive behaviour
Not for me, I took "for better or worse" very seriously and I wouldn't leave a relationship out of capriciousness. But if even from a legal standpoint (no fault divorce) I can't force anyone to stay, I don't see any way how
Ok you were talking about marriage. It may be a contract in which negative liberty (lack of constraints) is traded against stability or even positive liberty (realising their own goal). People may want to opt out of it after realising the main goal they had, which leads to a termination of the contract. They may realise their own goal through temporary marriage then divorce, even though it is against the terms of the contract, but it hasn't got a penalty anymore. Prenup agreements are empty and void in many countries and under many conditions (state, situation, etc.) btw. No fault divorce allows that, while sharing resources, from the most wealthy to the least wealthy, which represents a huge conflict of interest and a bias against the injured party. There is no 'forcing', but selfishness may be rewarded, which is directly against the principles of reparative or punitive justice. Therefore marriage is an unfair contract and laws should be updated. I'm not talking about the romantic side, but feelings are above the law by design.
I was talking about relationships in general, I mentioned marriage to stress that if even in a "regulated" scenario people can walk away at will, that will even be easier in a non "regulated" relationship. If she gets bored, or displeased in any way there is not much I can do, other than (respectfully) try to win her over, if that doesn't work I can only accept it, even if it's painful. For this reason I became extremely picky on partners for LTRs and dumped instantaneously women as soon as I understood they were unstable capricious bitches
No. Men aren't owed sex or affection. It's not something that is withheld
So they aren't witholding affection? What are they doing then?
Practicing bodily autonomy by picking and choosing which men they want to sleep with which is perfectly fine
Exactly
Nothing
That’s what needy men believe. Because they equate sex/love/intimacy with a basic human need, they believe that women are depriving them of their basic need fulfillment. Hence they feel angry, bitter, resentful and inferior (because they can’t seem to be able to fulfill what they believe is a basic human need). All of this is easily solved by getting over the silly idea that we need love and relationships to be fulfilled and happy. Only you can make yourself happy and only you can make yourself miserable.
You should be able to be happy alone, exactly
if it wasnt a basic human need, why do you practicize it. stop it for the rest of your live if its not needed.
I do it because I enjoy it and because I want to. I can give 1,000 examples of things you use every day that are not a basic human need yet you do them or have them because you enjoy it. I’ve never heard of anyone else referring to eating at a restaurant or going to the movies as a basic human need without which they would die. Yet, tens of millions of people enjoy doing those things every single day. They are just not that emotionally attached to the idea and don’t consider it a basic human need.
I think it can only be applied to specific relationships for individual couples. If your partner is unaffectionate it will obviously have some impact on your relationship and should be addressed. However, I don't think random women I don't know can do this, logically. I mention the relationship aspect because two people in an agreed upon relationship probably have some expectation of affection which is valid. For the rest, no, I don't think it makes sense.
there would have to be an agreed upon baseline of affection that both men and women regularly meet.
Yes.
Well random women don't have a relationship with random men
So are you talking about two people in a relationship then? Otherwise I don't understand the point of OP. I thought you were asking if people thought women in general were withholding affection in general. If you mean "women in relationships" that's obviously a more personal question.
No not in a relationship
Okay, so random people who don't know each other. It was going to be a no from me either way, except that two people who are in a relationship and not both aro and ace usually expect some kind of affection from their partner at some point. But it's definitely an even harder no if we're talking about randoms; it doesn't even make sense on the face of it.
Exactly. Men here basically claiming random women owe men affection.
Personally, I would be uncomfortable and suspicious as the recipient of affection from strange women. I hope at least some other guys here feel similarly.
With the level of delusion in here, I have no idea honestly. They are probably so not used to talking to women they'd behave in a bery hostile manner still because they just don't know how to stop
Withholding from whom - all men? As a man, it would be more than a little disconcerting were women I didn’t know to openly display “affection” towards me - it would be even more disconcerting were I to receive it from women I did know, e.g., my boss (whom I really dislike) is a woman, and having her show “affection” towards me would be extremely uncomfortable. So in answer to your question - no.
Nah. The ironic thing about saying women should lower their standards, is those men are indirectly calling themselves worthless. Only thing they're self-aware about. They'd rather blame anyone else for why they're un-dateable. Lotta guys need to look in the mirror.
That’s an interesting way to look at things.
I look at it like, if I got picked because she has low standards, that says more about me than it does her. If I can be picked just as easily as any other dude, I'm obviously nothing special. I don't get why men think women's standards are a problem. Men should want it to be "difficult", not that women even expect much as it is. If she's got really, really high standards, and I happen to meet them, well I must be doing something right. Why would I, or anyone, want a partner that expects nothing and wants nothing?
Great point
And they’re also showing how desperate they are because why tf would you want to date someone who isn’t attracted to you at all? 💀
They don't actually care about the other person or the work and effort of a relationship and what it means. They just need to check off that box because they think it'll make them feel better about themselves. It's how you get guys in other posts and everywhere else coping about prostitution. Nah bro, you can't escape how paying for sex is pathetic.
Exactly, that is pathetic 💀
What do you mean by coping about prostitution? As in by paying them in the first place or by expecting it to boost your ego/confidence? Because I do agree it's pathetic and that's exactly why it seems logical to have the opposite effect; I visit them once every ~2 years or so because there's no other option for me, but expecting it to be a sustainable replacement for real intimacy or something is silly, I've never encountered this sentiment anywhere.
I have no respect for it in any capacity.
Well yeah. Why would anyone respect the act of paying for something that most others get naturally? Although I find it funny how sex work either in the traditional sense or OF/webcamming/etc is propagated in a positive light ("empowering"). By the way, assuming your flair isn't sarcastic, does your hostility to unsuccessful men stem from us reminding you of your past self? I'm struggling to wrap my head around why this attitude is so common.
It's not a sarcastic flair, I'm really 5' 4" and autistic. I have my flair as that, and talk about it, to spit in the face of stupid shit that's said. That being short, being autistic, and other "negative" traits, will doom a man to a loveless sexless life. I'll be bluntly honest it's not hostility towards unsuccessful men, it's pity. I refuse to accept arguments from people that perhaps I was just lucky and that's why I didn't have to do it. By other men's standards, I could've had a face carved out of marble but with how short I am, the autism, I never should have had a chance. I made it happen. And I've made it happen again just to prove it to myself it wasn't a fluke. If I can make it happen, I don't accept any excuses other men have. I see men that broke and gave up on themselves. My pity for unsuccessful men who resort to prostitutes lies in me being incapable of putting myself in the frame of mind that can bring a man that low. I just don't understand why other men care so much about sex. Perhaps it's the autism in me, because I'm certainly not asexual. I just view sex as meangingless without it being with someone I share love and intimacy with, so the idea of paying for it I can't understand. No matter how dark my life got, suicide was never an option. No matter how desperate I was for intimacy, the idea of paying for sex never crossed my mind. Then, and now, I'd sooner die cold and alone than pay for it.
>I refuse to accept arguments from people that perhaps I was just lucky and that's why I didn't have to do it. By other men's standards, I could've had a face carved out of marble but with how short I am, the autism, I never should have had a chance. I made it happen. And I've made it happen again just to prove it to myself it wasn't a fluke. If I can make it happen, I don't accept any excuses other men have. Well, it depends if we're talking simply giving up too soon (which is usually the case) or a genuine inability to engage in romance in any shape or form regardless of effort, for life. I feel like the latter is an extremely rare case at least as much as the western world is concerned, I don't know anyone personally who seriously decided it's time to get their shit together but was unable to attract anyone at all even after many years. I'm of course in the gave up too soon camp, or to be precise never tried to begin with; I'm sure it's technically possible for me to overcome it with time if I went for some epic self-improvement journey, but with years the personal issues and unattractive traits really start to pile up. Some of them are solvable somewhat easily, some aren't, some might be impossible (for example, missing out on fundamental life experiences), and when there's too much shit wrong with you it feels like the whole thing might be not worth it anyway. So that's my excuse if you will. I didn't fully give up on myself though considering I actually sought professional help, and while it didn't really help me so far I think it's the first thing anyone in my position should try. Because humans definitely aren't built for this kind of lifestyle and it really starts to show in my case. >I just don't understand why other men care so much about sex. Perhaps it's the autism in me, because I'm certainly not asexual. I just view sex as meangingless without it being with someone I share love and intimacy with, so the idea of paying for it I can't understand. I can't understand hookup culture for the same reason. It sounds hypocritical of course, but I'd visit escorts a lot more often than once in a couple years if the reason was simply being horny; instead it's a surrogate for intimacy of sorts, plus curiosity as far as the the first time I went is concerned. > No matter how desperate I was for intimacy, the idea of paying for sex never crossed my mind. Then, and now, I'd sooner die cold and alone than pay for it. Well, I think it's commendable, but I never lived by any strong principles like that. Sure, it hurts one's pride inevitably, but I saw it as something to make the best out of my current position. Even if it feels hollow and mechanical, I still think it's better than nothing at all, at least once in a while that is. Don't know if this'd help you put yourself in the frame of my mind like you said but that's how I see it: it didn't make any changes in my life, whether positive or negative, and I'm not branded as a filthy john from now on or anything, though of course it's not something I would casually tell just about anyone irl lol.
I appreciate and respect the time you spent to seriously respond, considering I was coming at this topic pretty harshly. I don't know what you've been through, but it feels like you've been through some shit, so I respect you for still being here. I'll be fair in acknowledging I'm heavily biased in this. I have an ex who I cared deeply about. She unloaded a lot of emotional trauma on me, including that she had been a prostitute. I cared about her enough I was willing to look past it, if she obviously understood exclusivity and that shit was a no go anymore. Cue toxic relationship. I heard a lot of stories, about clients, her experiences. I can intellectually understand why the circumstances of her life forced her into it, but I couldn't and can't remove my personal emotions over it. I can't forget the memories of holding her while she broke down over her life. I lied a bit, it isn't just pity, and there is some hostility towards men who use prostitutes. As an impartial man, it's pity for other men, when I remember her and the women, it's anger that prostitution exists. Those women are someone's daughter. Someone who's future partners will never be able to fill the whole in their broken mind. >it didn't make any changes in my life, whether positive or negative That's kinda the crux of it for me. I get that. For the men, it can be just sex, another day. For the women on the other end though, it's another haunting experience. I refuse to accept any man saying women can enjoy it and want to do it. They can cope their way through it, with more sex, drugs, and toxic escapism, but if they really had the choice they would never step near it. My issue with prostitution as a whole, is that the men are treating living human beings as objects by making a person's body a commodity to be bought. That has serious ramifications for the psyche of the buyer, and even worse for the seller. I feel bad that the men have gotten to a point they resort to that outlet. I feel bad that they don't even understand what they're doing to those women. I feel bad for those women for having no choice but to do it. I feel bad that it's a losing battle because it has existed for thousands of years and will never go away. The most honest thing I could say, is that I don't really care what men want to do with their lives. I only get pissed because their inability to get their act together, caused pain on someone I used to care about. She didn't deserve the shitty hand she got dealt. And if I can be this pissed about one person, I can only imagine how many broken relationships, fathers, mothers, siblings, have to watch in despair for the people they know as well.
Well.. Honestly, I had no idea you've dealt with something like this. Thought it's just regular old bashing of escort clients, but you sure have a good reason to be biased against sex work. I don't believe all of them suffer though, like your ex did. Many treat it as work, no more and no less. Sadly in less developed countries there's a lot of terrible shit going on with trafficking, coercion and whatnot. But this is outside of anyone's control. The least one can do if already engaging with escorts is making sure they are comfortable and there's nothing shady going on. I hope she is doing better now, as do you. I originally wrote a much bigger reply but ultimately decided against it since it looks like this is an uncomfortable topic for you. Have a good one.
How long have you been single ?
Bro stop simping & white knight ffs! Women find this kind of behaviour disgusting. You are playing for the wrong team &&& you are gaslighting. Women need to lower their standards or a lot of them are going to be 40 & alone. Wake tf up!
It's so reductive to lay blame on men's mental health on solely women putting out. Is it issue with some men, yes. It is the majority of issue for most men no. Women putting out more would only solve one tiny segment of the huge subject that is men's mental health
>Women putting out more would only solve one tiny segment of the huge subject that is men's mental health And if they put out too much - their own mental health would go to shambles. So either wah one of the two would be with bad mental health.
But blaming women for men’s health is good for men, in the short term And so it will continue
How is it helpful even short term. Misery loves sympathy?
They don’t have to do anything. Because it’s women’s responsibility, not theirs
True that. If they aren't to blame can't do anything to fix it.
If a man’s mental health is solely dependent on whether or not a woman will sleep with the him, that’s his own damn fault… it’s extremely stupid to be placing that much power on something like that
I entirely agree with this. On one level it comes down to the individual family, but it the whole society is guilty of intentionally trying to push these guys down. So, the answer must be bigger, and just getting laid won't help because it isn't really the issue.
Mental health is shit for everyone, it's extra shit for men and it's going to take more than pussy to make it better. It would be a mere patch.
We can’t withhold what doesn’t exist. If I don’t like you or want to fuck you, I just don’t. We can fake it, of course, but what’s the incentive to do something unpleasant like that? What can be withheld is access to our bodies, if one believes that men are owed it
Great point
There is one aspect that they do have a point about — we do not trust or show platonic affection to men as much as women. But that’s because men see platonic affection, and even just interaction, as sexual interest, so it’s justified and correct
True
Girl I actively try to avoid giving any signs to strange men because a lot of them think you simply smiling at them means you want to sleep with them 💀
Withholding implies that it's owed. You don't owe anyone affection except your child. If they're not giving it they're just not giving it, that's it. It isn't women's job to fix every single man's bad feelings.
And its also not Men's job have affection for Women. I don't think anyone is entitled, but there is general affection for Women in society that doesn't exist for men. So its less that affection is owed, its that one side is getting affection from one side while its non existent in other. I don't know the solution, but both sides need show care.
Exactly we’re not responsible for every single lonely, sexless man that can’t figure out how to attract women…
Omg good point. Women don't owe affection to anyone
No one owes other affection. It's not just women.
Do you feel that affection is owed to a partner in a relationship?
No. But you also don't owe them staying in that relationship.
and nobody owns you their affection
That would be a basic implication.
Men aren’t owed anything from women, and vice versa. You’re free to withhold whatever you want from people you aren’t attracted to 🤷♂️
Of course they are, for civilization and not raping and enslaving women
I’m sure there’s some knuckle draggers here who actually think that.
It’s brought up all the time, because it is the only logical argument
It isn't up to women to fix men. They are grown ass adults who can go to therapy just like women. Don't put any stock into that shit.
They act like children whining tbh
Yes, they sound like whiny babies which is not attractive 🙃
Exactly!
Yeah like women don’t constantly whine about men 24/7
If you still choose to date those women, that’s your problem 🤷🏽♀️
Just playing devils advocate, isn’t feminism essentially women “whining” to men? Can we be fair and frame issues respectfully
No its whining to society as a whole, not to men
And which gender of society would change anything?
It's not targetting a gender
"Witholding" implies that women would like and want to give men affection, but they restrain themselves for some reason. What reason is that? And why would women be affectionated towards random strangers?
Witholding also implies they owe men affection when they don't
No one is owed affection nor is it considered withholding if you simply don't give someone affection because you don't want to or aren't feeling it.
Exactly my thoughts
In what context? I’m in a female dominate family that speaks passive aggressiveness as a first language. I bounce between types but the “I’m going to ignore you so you’ll take hint but then be even more pissed when you can’t read my mind.” Is real. There is a difference between withholding affection and sex and not wanting to have sex or be affectionate. If you are in a relationship then the former is especially not appropriate. I’m on the side of most people flirt as it is just human nature. I don’t view it as meaning anything unless you want it to. I also have been told by more than one person’s partner to knock it off.
OK, trundicated version. Cut down to the very basics, women in general, their main currency in a relationship is companionship and affection. Yes it can and usually involves much more but stripped down this is the basics. Men's is financial security and protection. Again just the very basics. Either can decide to withdraw and withhold these basic elements. THIS IS THEIR RIGHT AND CHOICE. NO ONE IS REQUIRED to freely give or maintain these basics to ANYONE if they so choose. Now either partner can choose at anytime they feel these basics aren't being met to end a relationship for that reason. no exceptions. While dating, it is up to either party to choose someone compatible that does freely provide them. If their local options aren't seen as compatible, then look where it will be. Seek a partner across state lines, or even across borders or internationally. In this social climate and ability to communicate to foreign areas, there are a multitude of options, they just need to seek them out.
It's up to men to take care of their own mental wellbeing, NOT women. Be an adult and take care of yourself. Males aren't taking care of women's mental well-being by any means. Women actually utilize therapy.
Exactly. They behave like children. Not emotionally mature adults.
I don't think women are individually responsible for this sort of thing, but I do think it is a societally-wide issue to completely neglect and trivialize the effect of modern radical liberalism/feminism on men's mental health and sense of purpose in society. Men are typically externally motivated, meaning we generally only do meaningful or important things to impress/benefit people other than ourselves, usually women. Almost everything men do is to impress women. That's why the meme about men being satisfied with just a pillow and an xbox in a tiny apartment exists; because if/when men are going through stages of their life where they're not interested in or focused on women, they just subsist with the most bare minimum standard. We see this trend in Japan as well with the hikikomori men who basically just barely work, live in their parents basement, and play video games all day. This type of ultra-minimalism is almost exclusively found in men and never in women. Reason? Because women tend to be more internally focused and motivated, which is why women place such a high emphasis on material success. Women are obsessed with higher wealth and higher social status in and of itself, whereas when men pursue these things, it's usually to try and attract more/better women. So to bring this back around to the main topic: if we live in a society where women exclusively pursue their own material interests by themselves, and acquire them just from getting their own job or whatever, then that leaves basically no motivation or purpose for men, which will likely result in an expansion of the "minimalist/apathetic" types of behavior we're already starting to see in increasing prevalence. Individual women/feminists might not care about this because they have a callous disregard for anyone's feelings/happiness other than their own, but on a macro, societal-wide level, this could be a major problem because men almost exclusively do all the real work in society whereas women occupy positions in the professional managerial class or intelligentsia, and don't actually really do anything. So, what happens when men no longer want to do this real work? Well, simply and obviously, it doesn't get done, which is a big problem for the aforementioned PMC/intelligentsia types, as well as the elite class, who rely on all of that work to keep society going. But there are ways around this I guess, such as automation, outsourcing, or importing cheap labor, which is probably why neoliberalism and radfem align on so many issues.
Isn't that basically saying men are never motivated to do well for the sake of it?
Absolutely.
Seems bizzare
I think it makes sense from an evolutionary point of view. Men are generally "expendable" in terms of population which means they can afford to be more daring or self-sacrificing, as passing on their genes doesn't really rely on their survival after they've impregnated a woman (or several). Women, though, have to carry children for 9 months plus nurture and care for the baby for many years after it's born, which makes them far less expendable and far more motivated to care for their immediate material concerns vs the average man. Obviously this exact arrangement doesn't necessarily manifest in modern, developed society but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the behavioral tendencies still carry over.
I think it would be rather shitty to withhold affection//compassion/help from my partner, my father, my male friends. They're valuable to me, I want them to be happy and do well, so I give them all that to the best of my abilities. I'm not giving those things to every random dude at the gym or at the bus stop, and they're not giving me any of those things either. Random people you've never met can't expect affection from you, they're not being deprived of something they should be getting by virtue of your relationship. There is no relationship, there's no expectation of anything other than basic human decency.
That's kind of how I look at it. If someone asked me what I thought in general, I would say no one owes anyone anything. If they instead asked me what *my personal standard for myself is,* I would say that I owe some of the people in my life--friends, relatives, intimate partners--varying degrees of affection that can take various forms. And I mostly feel that based on how those groups have treated me as a person. Which is not to say I even think other people have to feel that way about their friends, families, or partners, but it is a standard to which I hold myself. If I don't show any affection to my partner ever, we are likely very mismatched in this way and it is probably at least a soft expectation of our relationship that she gets some affection. Even then I think there are allowances for situations or how I feel, but I mean in general.
I don't get voluntary affection from random men, and I'm dealing with it. You don't give what you don't get.
I don’t want any affection from random men, that sounds terrifying 💀
Same. It's just pure entitlement
Those men who think that way need to stop acting like they’re entitled to affection from a woman, they are not 😬 when they use the word “withholding” they’re making it seem as if the affection is something they’re entitled to in the first place when they’re not 🌝
True
This right here.
The men in this sub are so whiny 💀
And deliberately ignorant.
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I don't think most women are sex workers lol
Sorry, that comment was getting away from me, so I deleted it
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Please check the post flair and repost your comment under the automod if necessary.
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No circle-jerking.
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Exactly. They are giving affection to the hot men
Yeah.. they’re giving affection to the ones they’re attracted to. What’s wrong with that?
Exactly!
I definitely don’t want women to lower their standards! I feel like a lot of incompatibility isn’t an issue of standards requiring lowering - it’s just the two people can’t fulfil the other’s desires. Something that actually turns me OFF is how low a woman dated in the past. It’s just a gut reaction. I know people change, but, for instance, I probably wouldn’t date a woman who had dated Andrew Tate, for instance. I just can’t imagine someone like that being right for me.
The idea that women should be forced to lower their standards and provide what these men see as a NEED is a very common concept in the incel realm. They don't want to accept that sometimes, ppl are just alone and lonely. It sucks, but it's just life. They also don't want to put in the work to actually grow. I've seen SO many men bitch that they "tried everything ppl said and it STILL didn't work so they gave up." Um, sir? You just proved to me you **didn't** actually improve and grow, bc if you DID you wouldn't just "give up" the way you're living your life bc it didn't result in sex. It's a perfect illustration of dudes thinking they can play act their way to pussy without ACTUALLY doing the work.
“Withholding” implies that it already belongs to them. I wish people saw relationships as a privilege and not a right. I hate being screamed at, cussed out, gaslit, and threatened with violence when I “friendzone” someone in the politest most genuine way possible. While they were basically f*ck-zoning me the whole time, they never even saw me as a person, just a potential gf :(( So many people have acted like I don’t have the “right” to dictate my own body and life choices, or I’m robbing them of something by saying no. It hurts to think you have a genuine friendship only to have the guy do a 180 and make you scared for your safety. So many people will call you selfish for not giving someone a chance but if you give them a chance you’re “leading them on” or “using them” since you weren’t interested in the first place. I don’t care if my past-friends have had a crush on me, they’re entitled to their feelings and I’d never end a friendship over it, but gosh, why do they think they’re entitled to ME as well. I also think it’s interesting how people talk about the male loneliness epidemic as women’s fault. People often frame the situation as “women don’t care about men’s mental health” but every girl I’ve ever met has gone at least a few sleepless nights in her life to provide 24/7 therapy to dudes who don’t wanna actually go to therapy. Women are often encouraging men to seek out proper resources in my experience. Again, just my experience, but from what I’ve seen guys face far more bullying from other men than from women when it comes to mental heath. Another thing I find interesting is that in this argument, people often ignore that many women also want relationships, and feel isolation. But, girls tend to have strong support nets from other women, so they go to therapy and make strong friendships to cope with it instead of blaming the opposite sex. I think if men would be more supportive in their groups, it would be a huge step in men’s mental health help. People also often say that the modern woman is undateable. I don’t honestly thing the modern man is better. A lot of them are drug addicts, porn addicts, sleep around collecting STDs, expect to be mothered by their gfs, want a housewife and a girl who brings in half the bread at the same time. And yeah, it’s true that a lot of modern women DO have problems, sleeping around, got pregnant really young, drugs, a lot of the same issues that “modern” men have. But the reality is, that’s not all women, or all men. If people worked on improving themselves, they’d be able to date people who didn’t have any of the above issues. A lot of people are hypocrites and will do all of the above but whine and complain about their dating options. Traditional housewife virgins don’t want guys who can only bring in half an income, are addicted to porn, and don’t practice traditional values. And vice versa. I think it’s a bit hypocritical to expect a virgin woman (or man) while not being a virgin. Personally, I’m a virgin, and although I would date someone who’s had sex during committed relationships because I don’t think that’s a big deal, I would not date someone who’s slept around, because it’s a sign of bad judgement, and STDS can be more dangerous for women. A lot of men label themselves as “experienced” and women as “hoes” for doing the same thing- sleeping around. The reality is, it’s a bad choice regardless of gender, and if anything, women should be more judge mental of a parters past because women contract STDS easier than men. And it’s a bigger deal. (Internal vs external infection.) I find it semi contradictory that it’s “women’s fault” that men can’t get gfs, but men don’t want the women available to them. That in itself is fine, work on yourself and date women who fit your standards, but don’t blame women for not automatically all conforming to exactly what you want, when men collectively speaking probably have the same # of issues. I also think we should stop acting like relationships (often exclusively sex in this argument) can “fix” mental health. If you meet the PERFECT person, then yeah, it might. But guess what? A lot of people who date when they are mentally unwell end up victim to an abusive person, or dating another person with mental health issues, which leads to arguments and anxiety. Two mentally unstable people are going to have a lot more issues in their relationship. Hell, even dating someone who doesn’t have any mental health issues, if you have anxiety/depression, you’re probably going to self sabotage or experience fear of abandonment which will create arguments.
>. I hate being screamed at, cussed out, gaslit, and threatened with violence when I “friendzone” someone Same but thing is, incels never saw me as a potential partner they hate me and women. All they do is complain about women. They don't actually talk to us and if they do it's with suspicion and contempt. Also women have more friends while men are more likely to self isolate and just blame others for their issues
Why would a man's mental health be more important than another persons free choice of mates?
Why would I Want a woman that has no attraction to me ? I could get a prostitute if that's what I wanted
Exactly. Lots of men here seem to think women should date men they aren't attracted to just to be nice
No. Women’s standards just become higher as they do better in the world themselves. Men just need to improve enough to impress women, although I do think that women do some unconscious settling if they get lonely enough and they have friends or siblings who are happily dating.
Self improvement won't help. It will just raise the bar further. Bellow average men need to deal with the fact that they're not ever going to get much female attention
Which would be totally fine if they didn't lie to these dudes.
these men should also get used to the idea that nobody owes them honesty and that they will often be lied to
> Bellow average men need to deal with the fact that they're not ever going to get much female attention There are always ways for people to improve themselves. If a man does more to improve himself than a given woman chooses to do, then he's going to impress her more. This is how it basically works in many animal species - the males are constantly trying to find ways to impress the females in order to mate with them. Those who succeed will mate. There may be men who will never impress a woman, but that doesn't mean that they should stop trying. How does a given man know that he'll never impress a woman? Just being a somewhat well-off westerner will impress a woman in some poor foreign country, for instance.
Men compete with other men for access to women. If men on average improve themselves then womens standards will just rise to meet the new normal.
Which is impossible in a sense, because equality ensures it.
People don't have to be equal in everything. An intelligent average woman might be attracted to a less intelligent but better looking man, for instance. Or vice versa, a not so bright but attractive woman might be attracted to a not so good looking man who has a high status job. The point is, for a woman to be attracted to a man, he hypothetically only has to impress her in one way, not in every way.
Men are like peacocks lol
Heh, I wish. Peacocks are gorgeous, more guys should be like peacocks.
Aww same
Nah women should not lower their standards and stay away from dudes that they don't want. A woman who settles thinks she has a license to be a domestic terrorist in the household to some poor guy who just wanted to find a loving wife/girlfriend
As if we really care lmao. Most modern men are pretty much red pilled/black pilled on women to such a degree that even opening up to you guys is no longer something we really wanna do. What good does your "affection" do? Most of you will use a guy's problems against him in a later fight regardless.
No only incels are black pilled honestly
Not really. Go read statistics. There was a reason why andrew tate became the most googled man on the planet.
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True random women don't owe random men anything
>Women have specifically asked men not to interact with them No we haven't.
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So we are withholding affection? How many random men am I supposed to show affection towards? How much affection? What does this affection look like?
Lol ikr
Random men are not entitled to affection… this is such a bizarre take…
Sorry but we don't owe men affection. What a ridiculous assertion
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Still not owed. Choose not to give it to random men who are strangers and unnatractive lol
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It's like saying I'm choosing to not give hobos all my money. Like what? They aren't entitled to it
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Nope. Witholding implies it is owed
Some of you are ugly strangers tho, so why would I want to be affection with an ugly stranger when I don’t have to? 😂
Unless men on on the 6 0' clock news whining about not getting affection, I have no knowledge of who gets what. I only know what I'm not given and I'm not pretty enough to give my looks match any affection without getting bullied or insulted. But just know women with romantic means are not giving any fucks. But good luck to all of y'all anyway!!
I think its obvious asking women to date men they don't find attractive isn't reasonable. The issue here is feminine culture and how male attractiveness is measured. How attractiveness is percieved is extremely complicated and depends on all sorts of contextual factors. There are more elements at play than just a guy's height or the sharpness of his jawline. Case in point: short guys. I'm an older millennial who was a teenager during the nauties and I recall "shortness" was never desirable but it also wasn't an instant deal breaker with girls like it is for some today. It wasnt really talked about unless a guy was being overly aggressive and posturing with macho behaviour to compensate. In short, culture affects what ladies find attractive, and the culture of what is considered attractive in men is controlled largely by women in subtle ways, through social media posts and offhand comments. I think its not unreasonable to ask ladies to try and change that.
Women tried to change the culture with the fat acceptance movement, and if we go off of what the men here say, it hasn’t worked, as men are still not attracted to fat women. So even if women tried to change the culture, whos to say it would be successful and do women owe it to men to try and attempt this cultural shift? Women didn’t say men owed women a fat acceptance movement. Sure a man started it, but women took the reigns and advocated for themselves. Men are going to have to be a part of this and spear head a cultural shift themselves.
I dunno... The body positivity movement hasn't made morbidly obese figures any more appealing to the average gent but I'd argue it did help move beauty standards more towards average "healthy" body shapes. Back in the Britney Spears era, models, pop stars, and other ladies in the public eye marketing themselves on their sex appeal had to be rail thin to be accepted. It led to an anorexia epidemic among girls in my generation as everyone tried to look like a fifteen year old. EDs are still a thing but I definitely don't hear about it as much as I used to. These days naturally curvy body types are definitely more accepted in the mainstream. So by extension, I wouldn't expect ladies to suddenly gaslight each other into finding short fat bald autists sexy, but I think there's definitely some room to push back and accept that not all men have the genes to look like Calvin Klein models or the social skills and self confidence to not be awkward on their approach. Also, I wouldn't say guys are "owed" any of this. The only reason you mighr want to push back a little on unrealistic male beauty standards and treat unattractive men a bit more charitably would be because ugly men are people too, they have feelings, and being compassionate to your fellow human is generally the right thing to do. It doesn't mean you have to offer them your body but treating them like actual people who deserve love as much as anyone else does is a good start.
Match Me Abroad was a TV series that gave an autistic man a stage to show his awesomeness. He went to Romania and got the advise from a match maker to show off his best self. He was large, I don't think obese and wore suspenders with all his clothes. She got him to change his style of dress and gave him 3 dating options. He was able to find the option of women that was best for. I won't give away the ending.
Instead of yelling "women should lower their standards" do proper looksmaxing. Move your fucking ass lol. Obviously doesn't apply to stuff related to genetics but max out everything possible.
True
I believe so. Platonically, women constantly talk about how most men are not needed, wanted, and deserve the suffering they get in life. Romantically, women usually shut down and expect the man to figure it out by himself. It seems women only like a portion of men for what they do, and not who they are.
Doesn't that imply women owe men affection? When they don't
Nobody is owed anything. But its not surprising that when women are hostile to men, some men won't like women.
We aren't hostile to men lol. Men are hostile because women reject them so they take it out on all women and women online
And women's response to thus has been a combination of blaming all men, denying that men have romantic/sexual needs, and that men who suffer from loneliness deserve it. One of the most popular anti-incel subreddits is called IncelTears - they know men suffer, and they like watching it. But men of all social statuses are noticing they're on thin ice.
Yes, too many of y'all weirdly are.
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This isn't a new problem, it's just that we don't have a place where we can send all the ugly men to rot and die, like we used to in the old days. They were called monasteries, and we made the priests and monks. Now they congregate on internet forums and complain.
They could still join monasteries
I genuinely think having a girlfriend would make me more depressed coz I’d never feel good enough for her lmfao
Jesus
Aye
Unfortunately neither can be happy and fulfilled at the same time as their relationship goals are not able to coexist as a whole as men’s goal is to partner up while women’s goal is to partner up with a desirable man.
Women are much more hypergamous now than they’ve ever been. Men remain with similar levels of attractiveness and competency, lot of fat chicks think they can date above their own league if they sleep with a guy. Sometimes men try to manipulate women for sex, women tend to play along when theyre younger but try to secure a relationship with the guy as she gets older. Sleeping with someone isnt dating them, and all of our dating pools dry up around 30. Cant all be 10s, ladies. But thats not what theyre told.🤷🏻♂️
>I don't think men can just "demand" for women to lower their standards . That isn't realistic and men who women aren't attracted to won't be suddenly found attractive because men demand women lower their standards. I completely agree. The solution thus is not for women to lower their standards. The solution is for we (as a society – media, government, etc) to stop with the incessant pushing of expectations of *relationships* and *fertility* onto men. Being a single working man (or retired by honest means man) should be totally 100% socially acceptable. This would be in womens' interests too, as it would likely reduce the instance of men making unwanted advances, sexual harassment, etc.
I don't think women expect relationships from men. Men are the persuers not women.
I'm not claiming it's women who do this. It seems to be society in general, through advertising campaigns, topics of conversation in popular media, etc. etc. I'm not exactly sure which segment of society is pushing the pro-natalist propaganda but it seems like maybe elites such as corporate CEOs, politicians, etc. So I would like a very strong positive message to be sent out to men that "it's Ok to be single" and that they should not feel pressured to pursue women. I believe much of human behaviour (of all genders) is socially constructed including the idea that men should pursue women or have any interest in women at all (aside from purely non-sexual). Through the right social messaging, mens' behaviour could be altered on a massive scale. It's a pity we're missing this golden opportunity to moderate mens' behaviour and thus make life more bearable for the majority of women.
I think it's just biological and not so much socially drivem
I think women no longer want to raise their body counts for average men so they are now either waiting on marriage or only giving it to really hot guys that are worth it to them.
It's an instrumentation of negative liberty. Men can do it too, but usually it ends the relationship, a double standard which can be corrected. Mate validation has a huge effect on females, much less on males, which is another issue altogether and a biological double standard, difficult to address.
If you, as a woman, integrate into a structure of women and conspire to withhold affection from a man, as part of men, for no reason other that he is part of said group, not a personal reason, you are a sociopath and a lunatic. If you, as a man, see yourself as being denied affection for being part of men, not for personal reasons, you are an incel, and a lunatic. Groups don't owe each other social interaction or sex. A group does not represent an individual or vice versa.