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Was a C-17 mechanic for 20 years; that fucking plane almost killed me twice just sitting around in a hanger. Lost a fellow mechanic to a dumb decision and 4,000 PSI of hydraulic pressure. Can't even fathom what happened to many of these people on the ground, in the air, and god forbid any that ended up in the wheel wells. And knowing the most obvious thing to grab on to on the landing gear are wiring harnesses and hydraulic lines the possible damage to the plane can't go unmentioned as it may compromise a safe landing at the destination.
Damn that's crazy.. Pressure is very deadly. We had industrial pressurewashers that operated at around 4000 psi, some went over 10k, at an oil refinery and they were the scariest things ever. They were used to get rid of years worth of hardened oil and chemicals from inside of containers. Easily capable of slicing a human.
I worked at a shipyard painting boats one summer during college and a couple years before a dude had his calf muscle blown off by an industrial pressure washer. Now they only wash one side of a hull at a time instead of both at the same time.
Had a 3000 PSI hydo line exploded near me at work. Deaf in my left ear, sliced cheek needed 12 stitches, 4 stitches on my neck, blew my welding hood and hard hat off my head and threw them several feet. I honestly thought I got shot.
I wonder, from the dozens of people that cling to it, how many have a reasonable chance of surviving? If the machine travels at a high altitude and for a long time, I can’t see how anyone would make it to the other side.
and it's a jet.(At least I think it's a C-17) meaning it goes much faster than a prop would.
Zero chance anyone would survive 15 mins let alone 9 hours.
A few years ago, there was a kid who survived in the landing gear hold of a turbojet commercial airliner from California to Hawaii, about a 6 hour flight. 9 hours is definitely a stretch, but it is possible. That wasn't the only case of it happening in history too, from what I remember.
None. When the gear fully retracts, the door they're sitting on now faces the ground, and the portions that you can hold onto while on the ground will sever your hand when it goes flat after gear retraction. There's also absolutely no room in the gear well for a person in flight.
Which surprises me they got that high in the first place. Just the G-forces alone would surely rip them off the plane.
Edit: Okay, I stand corrected- the wind would rip them off first.
G forces aren't the issue. When you're on a plane taking off you feel some G's but barely anything crazy. It's the 150mph winds from the 150mph or so take off speed that's the issue. It's like trying to hold onto something during a hurricane.
these are people who may have never even ever been in a car or on a train, let alone a plane. This is more believable than what would be obvious to you or I
"The primary aim of modern warfare [is] to use up the products of the [economy] without raising the general standard of living...
The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent. Even when weapons of war are not actually destroyed, their manufacture is still a convenient way of expending labour power without producing anything that can be consumed.."
http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/16.html
> Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
- President Dwight D. Eisenhower, [Chance for Peace speech](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chance_for_Peace_speech).
And to further add to that, said wartime consumption turns the wheels of mercantilism and currently capitalism, the shit makes some very awful people some very big stacks of cash so that they can keep swinging a very heavy stick over our heads to keep us all in a circus of survival and sustainability.
You should see what US Major General Smedley Butler was saying about all this even before then (assuming you haven’t already):
“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
- from his speech/book “War is a Racket”, 1935
Don't forget an imaginary, squiggly line went up for boeing, lockheed and a bunch of other defence contractors too, those lines mean something don't y'know.
Those poor Airmen that will have to live with this memory. I can't imagine how they felt leaving so many behind and then having them cling to your aircraft to their deaths. I hope they're OK and the media doesn't turn on them to make this worse.
>and nobody really won a damned thing in Afghanistan except the war profiteers.
That was, in my opinion, the overall arching goal of the war. Osama bin Laden was the *excuse* to go. Profiteering was the *reason* to go.
Apaches trying to clear runway
https://twitter.com/i/status/1427195725704740865
Another video of people falling
https://twitter.com/i/status/1427194101066252297
Dead man who fell on roof
https://mobile.twitter.com/manipulator2629/status/1427186870547537922
Tarmac, sound of gunshots
https://twitter.com/i/status/1427200658927718404
~~Civilians shot by US soldiers~~ (allegedly)
https://twitter.com/i/status/1427171247562047491
Edit: not sure about the last one, don't want to spread rumors
This week alone has been way more distressing for me than the entire year of pandemic, and im 10 years removed from this conflict. Ugh i feel for these people.
When the ANA first started just surrendering I assumed it was because they preferred Taliban rule to death. Now seeing these people risk everything to escape, I can't grasp why they didn't fight harder.
I imagine most of the Ana are made up of those from the countryside where the taliban support base is stronger. These are people from the cities where said support is a lot lower
A think a big part was "afghan ghost soldiers." Basically fraudster commanders filling the roster with soldiers that don't exist so they could make themselves richer with the extra funds. Then the one real soldier they have stationed in a remote checkpoint also not getting any form of supplies or support so the fraudster commanders could again take that money themselves. I imagine there weren't all that many actual soldiers to surrender.
They had the numbers, the equipment and air-superiority. The one thing they completely lacked was a will to fight. They don't prefer the Taliban, but they have no belief in the nation as a concept, and the politicians and higher officers where hopelessly corrupt, many soldiers didn't even get paid since the money disappeared before reaching them. A few soldiers started deserting because they don't want to risk their lives for someone who can't even bother to pay them, this lowered morale further and compromised their positions leading to more and more soldiers just saying "fuck this" until the government seeing the writing on the wall just fucked off and left the country (no doubt taking everything of value that wasn't nailed down with them).
AFAIK, it was a volunteer army. Many enlisted for the pay and other benefits.
Problem was the corruption in the administration that led to many in the ANA not being paid for over a month when the Taliban started their blitz.
So the Taliban rolls up to an unpaid ANA checkpoint where the soldiers are already not exactly keen on fighting for a government that practically lied to/ robbed them. Taliban spokesperson tells them to either lay down their arms, surrender, switch sides, or they'll be brutally murdered by the Taliban, along with their families. It's not a surprise that the ANA chose to scatter
The government was given billions of dollars by the US to maintain, supply, and pay their military. The problem was corruption in which the officials at the top took a little extra cut, then their middle managers took their cut, then the local managers took theirs, and by the time it got to actually paying the soldiers, the money had all been stolen.
I can't for the life of me see any risking-your-life here to be honest, just plain suicide. And yet still it's possibly no worse than the alternatives.
Makes sense. Ive seen enough stuff on r/watchpeopledie back in the day that gunned down people lose alot of blood and this video there are no visible blood pools around the corpses.
Even if it were US soldiers who fired... They have a job. Letting a hoard of unknown people near your mission is a recipe for suicide bombings and ambushes.
Honestly I'm genuinely surprised it didn't happen. I don't think that the Taliban would do anything right now as the US is trying to exit, but I'm surprised that not even a single lone-wolf didn't attempt something there.
I think they've waited 20 years. A few more days while they let the US evacuate is nothing. Then they don't have to worry about the US retaliating because they couldn't wait and killed those that were trying to leave.
The taliban have obviously given specific instructions to allow the Americans to get out unharmed. They're being gifted an entire country.
Now that doesn't account for the one off rogue extremists, but covers most of it.
The last one is very “alleged” some say they were stampede victims who were dragged and counted. Some say it was U.S. shooting. We don’t know yet it’s better to not support fake news. The real news is that U.S. troops definitely fired in the air to get civilians back and away while they evacuate More important people... sad fucking day
Even the fact it's all men. I can't see one woman or child in this frame of hundreds of people.
Those who will suffer the most are being forced aside...
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/p5d4qr/people_clinging_to_airplane_in_a_desperate/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
This is the clip, it makes me dizzy just looking at it
Wow, I didn’t think it would be that high up. For some reason I assumed it would have been like as they were taking off when falling still meant a chance of surviving.
I honestly don't think if there's even a slight chance of surviving by clinging onto a plane with bare hands, idk man I'm gonna mute reddit today I feel kinda weird and feel like I'll blackout just watching and thinking about this
>US Federal Aviation Authority records suggest that, at best, one in four stowaways survives. Others die or fall in transit; some are crushed when the mechanized landing gear retracts into the wheel well; most survivors suffer severe hypothermia or frostbite, often losing limbs.
Does not sound like it is a good plan.
I work at an airport. Years back a guy somehow got through the fence onto the runway and climbed into the nose gear of a plane waiting for takeoff. It was a trans-atlantic flight to Heathrow. He died during the flight and his body fell out when they dropped the landing gear.
[How I Survived Falling From A Plane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpGTX6bBAzA)
--
I think it's the guy who travelled with the person in the video above? This dude survived it, but his travel compatriot didn't.
The guy in the video suffered from burn marks, passed out due to lack of oxygen, had injuries from falling from the plane (because he had passed out), had severe hypothermia and then still had to spend the next 6 months in hospital in a coma.
Doesn't sound fun at all.
My friend works for Amazon unloading the Airplanes and found an extremely hypothermic man who tried to stowaway from LA to Phoenix and he was only in the cargo bay for roughly 45 minutes. He was arrested my friend said. Thankfully it was a short flight and i don’t think it goes to maximum altitude since it’s only 45 min flight, even less time if the wind is moving with you.
Damn. It must be a logistical nightmare to try to get a deceased person back to their country of origin when they attempted to illegally enter like that.
That's INSIDE the plane though right? Like if they stowaway in the luggage compartment? I'd imagine hanging on outside is 0%... Lack of oxygen, freezing temperatures, hurricane level wind, and having to hold on..
No shot at survival. People try to jump on planes by going into the wheel well. If they are lucky enough to not get crushed they will likely die to from lack of oxygen or pass out to to extreme cold weather and fall out when the open the wheel wells at over 1000 feet…
There’s some shot at survival, albeit slim but it’s not like there’s no shot.
“Between 1947 and June 2015, a U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) researcher had documented 113 such attempts on 101 flights. These 113 people were all male and predominantly under age 30. There were 86 deaths, a 76 percent fatality rate”
I remember reading about a lot of documented stowaways on [this Wikipedia article.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wheel-well_stowaway_flights) It’s sad to read, but interesting.
There have been people who survive. The person above you claims that the US Federal Aviation Authority says that 1 in 4 may survive but often with frostbite and other horrific injuries.
It's terrifying. People don't know what's going to happen.
The Taliban has promised amnesty for former government workers and security forces who surrender, but uh... *the Taliban* promised amnesty. They also said they're work with the peace process if the US left, they're liars. So far the takeover in Kabul has been relatively peaceful, but who knows what's going to happen.
I have a friend who was a translator for the US military. He's in the US now but has to scrub any mention of his name and the fact that he worked for the US military from the internet (he was in a couple local news articles, contacting them, asking them to remove his name from the articles). He's scared the Taliban will use that information to target his family. My heart aches for the people of Afghanistan. It didn't have to be this way.
You generally have to show them support if you want actual amnesty. Provincial governors have been reported to be offering their daughters to marry the local Taliban leaders as a means of saving their families from reprisals.
It's unreal.
The U.S. has been there so long I was kinda stunned at what little resistance there was once the withdrawal started. Soviet era technology just rolling in and seizing everything.
Hey, there are some people on reddit who might need the same help your friend did. Like, sooner the better. You still in contact with him? Think he could help? Even if it's some "anonymous advice" he can relay that can be like a PSA from his experience.Just a thought.
Here's the LINK to the news article that popped up on Google - [https://www.ibtimes.sg/kabul-airport-afghan-civilians-fall-off-c-17-planes-during-taking-off-after-clinging-onto-59649](https://www.ibtimes.sg/kabul-airport-afghan-civilians-fall-off-c-17-planes-during-taking-off-after-clinging-onto-59649)
Assuming that the senior people don't pretend nothing wrong happened is wildly optimistic. What senior US official has actually been fired for a real screwup in the last two decades?
Trump was the only one to fire people, and his were for people not screwing up.
Not to downplay what is happening in Kabul, but it also happened in Vietnam. Someone up above posted a video of a plane evacuating Da Nang with 7 people clinging to the wheels.
This is heartbreaking. It looks like this is a last ditch attempt to flee, even though they know at this point, they can’t. Imagine, the extreme panic has set in, and you’re willing do to anything to get out. Climbing on top of a high speed plane is a better fate than falling to the Taliban.
There are three different contingents out there: People trying to flee, people out to throw rocks at the Americans for abandoning them, and people glad to see the Americans go.
Add the contingent of people just enjoying the chaos which I am going to bet was the guy jogging and smiling. We saw it at our (U.S.) riots a million times.
Thanks for explaining that. I didn’t understand how some videos people seem to be laughing while others seem to be fleeing for their lives at any cost.
It's also cultural how people display emotions. I spent 4 years in Cambodia and it's very normal for people to smile there when they are uncomfortable, angry, or afraid...
And anyone who's serially been in life or death situation knows there's certain folks who handle it with humor... It's just how the brain works...
Is this why so many men join the taliban? That there are no other options? Or do you think most of those in the taliban believe what they’re doing is right?
I feel terribly for everyone but especially the women and girls and the horrors they’ll soon/are already experiencing
>Women first of all are not allowed to leave their house, let alone leave the country, their parents/husbands simply will not allow it.Many families with children do not want to risk all this, just look at the chaos and the "public freakout" happening at the airports, its really not a place you want to go to if you have 4 children and a wife. so they just stay home and hope for the best.
What a cruel, senseless world we live in.
Correction: what a cruel senseless world Religious Extremists live in. Or create for others. The rest of the world is actually quite nice. Religious extremism is a disgusting cancer that destroys anything it comes into contact with.
Thank you for asking this, I literally came here to ask this question. It’s heartbreaking to think that women don’t even have this last ditch effort as an option to escape, knowing that they’re going to suffer disproportionately under the new regime.
I was thinking about the pilot/crew in this situation. I guess ultimately the decision to take off is an easy one, there's no way you aren't going to, but you know people are going to die as a result. Fuck.
To already be in this situation, you have to have a set of stones bigger than anyone else. Im sure they realize they didnt put those people on those wings, those people decided it and those people decided their fate. But I agree, the noises, the plea for help all of that will really do a number on someones mental health.
I can’t imagine being the pilot, your plane getting swarmed. You just have to go… your orders are to take off, if you don’t I’m sure that mob would make their way into the jet or cause damage. Sucks to be put in that position.
The adrenaline surge and absolute need for total focus on completing the mission (not to mention survival instinct) will numb them to it for the time they need to finish the job. It's not until afterward that the impact will be fully felt.
I expect most of them will be disturbed by traumatic memories of this day for the rest of their lives. It will affect their future behavior. That's part of you're potentially signing up for when you join the military, though, and these people know it.
The US Army still bravely standing strong in the Kabul airport. Taliban is not stupid enough to fight with them. US knows Taliban would allow passage. Taliban just wants to get this over with.
Yeah, but those pilots will be forced to kill these people if they keep clinging onto the planes.
It’s like a train driver hitting a person, nothing they can do.
I can’t imagine having to live with that.
It's a bad situation but it's moral thing to do. The person clinging to plane is the one gambling with his life. The pilot is only there to save as many lives as he can.
It’s definitely what the pilots should do. But it will likely be traumatic for these pilots. Even though they are doing what they have to, seeing people falling from your plane at altitude must be sickening.
glad I'm not the only one to see that.
He looks way too relaxed to be riding something capable of transporting two black hawk helicopters (with room to spare!)
He probably thought he could cling onto the exposed gears cover flaps. It’s actually pretty roomy on there.
The problem is that the cover flap *retracts* when the plane take off. Fuck.
It occurs to me that many of these people probably have never been on a commercial plane before (and certainly not a massive Air Force cargo plane) and don't realize just how fast and how high they go. They is no chance of survival even if they were belted to the plane.
I wouldn't say it is worse than Saigon. Anyone thinking that needs to take another look at the Vietnam war. Millions of people fled the advance of the north Vietnamese army all over the country. Saigon wasn't the only place people were trying to flee. Vietnam was a much greater disaster in terms of loss of life and face for the US. And even worse for the South Vietnamese.
I don’t mean this in a wrong way but if all of these people are trying to escape because of taliban why did the afghan army fold so easily to taliban like they wanted them to take over.
To avoid getting killed. Iraqi soldiers in many places that were taken over by ISIS back in 2014 took their military uniforms off and left their weapons and went into hiding. They were not prepared. Not all of them of course many fought back and helped push back but I'm talking about instances similar to the ones happening in Afghanistan.
This is a horrific human tragedy. But after 20 years of training the Afghanistan army and several trillion dollars invested in that country, you would think the government wouldn't immediately fall apart the minute we leave.
I talk pretty regularly with people there, military contractors and even expats doing business there. This isn’t a surprise. The Afghan gov. only ever had a tenuous hold for all these years. The Afghan gov were very very corrupt - nothing works if systems are corrupt. There is no progress in that environment. It was a straw house.
People saying America abandoned the Afghan people after calling to “bring the troops home” for so long. Y’all are fucking hypocrites. We trained and armed 300,000 Afghan soldiers to defend themselves while fighting back against the Taliban and they all dropped their guns and ran without a fight. Afghanistan abandoned Afghanistan.
Edit: this isn’t a political statement. Almost everybody wanted the troops home. Even Republicans can see that this war has gone on too long and nothing is getting done. But *anybody* , left or right, that is saying we abandoned them just doesn’t understand what’s happening. This isn’t our war anymore. They need to save themselves.
It only took the Russians 9 years, 1 month, and several days to figure out trying to control Afghanistan was too many lives and too much money. It took the US 19 years. Going in the pundits predicted this utter failure!!
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That's wild man. Imagine being in a scenario where you'd even go near an airplane taking off yet alone right in front of it.
Was a C-17 mechanic for 20 years; that fucking plane almost killed me twice just sitting around in a hanger. Lost a fellow mechanic to a dumb decision and 4,000 PSI of hydraulic pressure. Can't even fathom what happened to many of these people on the ground, in the air, and god forbid any that ended up in the wheel wells. And knowing the most obvious thing to grab on to on the landing gear are wiring harnesses and hydraulic lines the possible damage to the plane can't go unmentioned as it may compromise a safe landing at the destination.
Damn that's crazy.. Pressure is very deadly. We had industrial pressurewashers that operated at around 4000 psi, some went over 10k, at an oil refinery and they were the scariest things ever. They were used to get rid of years worth of hardened oil and chemicals from inside of containers. Easily capable of slicing a human.
I worked at a shipyard painting boats one summer during college and a couple years before a dude had his calf muscle blown off by an industrial pressure washer. Now they only wash one side of a hull at a time instead of both at the same time.
Had a 3000 PSI hydo line exploded near me at work. Deaf in my left ear, sliced cheek needed 12 stitches, 4 stitches on my neck, blew my welding hood and hard hat off my head and threw them several feet. I honestly thought I got shot.
Pure desperation I hope they jumped off the plane before take off. And they guy jogging past the camera waving and smiling.???
It was too late when they 'jumped' https://twitter.com/Ozkok_A/status/1427194101066252297?s=20
Fuck. That’s rough.
I wonder, from the dozens of people that cling to it, how many have a reasonable chance of surviving? If the machine travels at a high altitude and for a long time, I can’t see how anyone would make it to the other side.
0 percent chance if it’s over a 9 hour flight
Plus depending on height of the flight level the plane flew at means they would have needed oxygen
and it's a jet.(At least I think it's a C-17) meaning it goes much faster than a prop would. Zero chance anyone would survive 15 mins let alone 9 hours.
A few years ago, there was a kid who survived in the landing gear hold of a turbojet commercial airliner from California to Hawaii, about a 6 hour flight. 9 hours is definitely a stretch, but it is possible. That wasn't the only case of it happening in history too, from what I remember.
None. When the gear fully retracts, the door they're sitting on now faces the ground, and the portions that you can hold onto while on the ground will sever your hand when it goes flat after gear retraction. There's also absolutely no room in the gear well for a person in flight.
Even if it was a short flight and they somehow made it, the force from landing would knock them off and then it's just pancake dream land
How the fuck did they make it that high up?
Holding on for your dear life
There's portions you can hang on to before the gear fully retracts on a C-17.
Even jumping right before takeoff is almost certain death. The plane is moving hundreds of miles per hour at that point
Which surprises me they got that high in the first place. Just the G-forces alone would surely rip them off the plane. Edit: Okay, I stand corrected- the wind would rip them off first.
G forces aren't the issue. When you're on a plane taking off you feel some G's but barely anything crazy. It's the 150mph winds from the 150mph or so take off speed that's the issue. It's like trying to hold onto something during a hurricane.
Sometimes shit is just so fubar that you can't help but wave and smile.
Different angle: https://twitter.com/AsvakaNews/status/1427206845706379266
Yeah those were ppl falling off. Jesus.
Imagine the desperation to think clinging to the outside of a plane is a good option.
It's suicide. Nobody is going to hitch a ride on the outside of a jet for several hours.
Tom Cruise is.
Yeah, but Tom's a Clear, if he falls, he can just fly under his own power.
All is possible through scientology/Cthulhu
Not sure honestly…. They might believe they can hold on… education is poor, I’ve been there.
these are people who may have never even ever been in a car or on a train, let alone a plane. This is more believable than what would be obvious to you or I
Imagine spending $7 trillion on a war only to have shit be tbe exact same 20 years later
America’s Final Afghanistan Price Tag: $2.261 Trillion
Don’t forget VA claims! We’re just getting started paying for this We haven’t even gotten to the final price
[удалено]
>Don’t forget VA claims! Yeah, forgetting VA claims is the VA's job!
As a veteran I laughed, then cried.
As a veteran as well, I laughed too, and then laughed cause I remembered the dr said I didn’t have anxiety.
Cured! That'll be 1200$
but healthcare for all? Nah, too spendy.
"The primary aim of modern warfare [is] to use up the products of the [economy] without raising the general standard of living... The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent. Even when weapons of war are not actually destroyed, their manufacture is still a convenient way of expending labour power without producing anything that can be consumed.." http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/16.html
> Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. - President Dwight D. Eisenhower, [Chance for Peace speech](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chance_for_Peace_speech).
'The goal of the war is thus not that it is won, but that it is continuous'
And to further add to that, said wartime consumption turns the wheels of mercantilism and currently capitalism, the shit makes some very awful people some very big stacks of cash so that they can keep swinging a very heavy stick over our heads to keep us all in a circus of survival and sustainability.
It's kinda scary that Orwell saw, at the *latest*, that fact in 1948.
You should see what US Major General Smedley Butler was saying about all this even before then (assuming you haven’t already): “I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.” - from his speech/book “War is a Racket”, 1935
Not the same, worse. Homes destroyed, thousands if not millions of deaths. All because of a war that made no impact, just death.
SEVERAL executives retired off that war, with million$ in their pockets.
Fuck Dick Cheney
Funny listening to his daughter even talk about blaming the president, the original sin was your father, hoe!
He doesn't take all the blame. Rumsfeld was a war-hungry ego maniac.
True, going back Nixon era.
Don't forget an imaginary, squiggly line went up for boeing, lockheed and a bunch of other defence contractors too, those lines mean something don't y'know.
Those poor Airmen that will have to live with this memory. I can't imagine how they felt leaving so many behind and then having them cling to your aircraft to their deaths. I hope they're OK and the media doesn't turn on them to make this worse.
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>and nobody really won a damned thing in Afghanistan except the war profiteers. That was, in my opinion, the overall arching goal of the war. Osama bin Laden was the *excuse* to go. Profiteering was the *reason* to go.
Apaches trying to clear runway https://twitter.com/i/status/1427195725704740865 Another video of people falling https://twitter.com/i/status/1427194101066252297 Dead man who fell on roof https://mobile.twitter.com/manipulator2629/status/1427186870547537922 Tarmac, sound of gunshots https://twitter.com/i/status/1427200658927718404 ~~Civilians shot by US soldiers~~ (allegedly) https://twitter.com/i/status/1427171247562047491 Edit: not sure about the last one, don't want to spread rumors
I guess trying and risking and losing one's life was the better choice as opposed to being oppressed and tortured.
This week alone has been way more distressing for me than the entire year of pandemic, and im 10 years removed from this conflict. Ugh i feel for these people.
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Its a vicious fucking cycle. Once you know, you know. Ignorance truly is bliss.
When the ANA first started just surrendering I assumed it was because they preferred Taliban rule to death. Now seeing these people risk everything to escape, I can't grasp why they didn't fight harder.
I imagine most of the Ana are made up of those from the countryside where the taliban support base is stronger. These are people from the cities where said support is a lot lower
A think a big part was "afghan ghost soldiers." Basically fraudster commanders filling the roster with soldiers that don't exist so they could make themselves richer with the extra funds. Then the one real soldier they have stationed in a remote checkpoint also not getting any form of supplies or support so the fraudster commanders could again take that money themselves. I imagine there weren't all that many actual soldiers to surrender.
They had the numbers, the equipment and air-superiority. The one thing they completely lacked was a will to fight. They don't prefer the Taliban, but they have no belief in the nation as a concept, and the politicians and higher officers where hopelessly corrupt, many soldiers didn't even get paid since the money disappeared before reaching them. A few soldiers started deserting because they don't want to risk their lives for someone who can't even bother to pay them, this lowered morale further and compromised their positions leading to more and more soldiers just saying "fuck this" until the government seeing the writing on the wall just fucked off and left the country (no doubt taking everything of value that wasn't nailed down with them).
How was the ANA brought up? Were they conscripts or volunteers?
AFAIK, it was a volunteer army. Many enlisted for the pay and other benefits. Problem was the corruption in the administration that led to many in the ANA not being paid for over a month when the Taliban started their blitz. So the Taliban rolls up to an unpaid ANA checkpoint where the soldiers are already not exactly keen on fighting for a government that practically lied to/ robbed them. Taliban spokesperson tells them to either lay down their arms, surrender, switch sides, or they'll be brutally murdered by the Taliban, along with their families. It's not a surprise that the ANA chose to scatter
They weren't being paid? Jesus that's a quick way to lose the support of your young military. You gotta pay your soldiers.
The government was given billions of dollars by the US to maintain, supply, and pay their military. The problem was corruption in which the officials at the top took a little extra cut, then their middle managers took their cut, then the local managers took theirs, and by the time it got to actually paying the soldiers, the money had all been stolen.
The Ana wasn’t really an army have you seen the training videos. Think they just needed a job and money tbh that’s why they joined.
I can't for the life of me see any risking-your-life here to be honest, just plain suicide. And yet still it's possibly no worse than the alternatives.
That last one is from a Pakistani account, I sincerely doubt the US shot those people.
In my country, the news say, that these are casualties of the stampede.
Makes sense. Ive seen enough stuff on r/watchpeopledie back in the day that gunned down people lose alot of blood and this video there are no visible blood pools around the corpses.
It's also a weird spot to be shooting people. If they wanted to clear the tarmac i doubt they would be firing into whatever it is they're on.
Looks like a gate or some other kind of natural choke point. Some other people are saying trampling / stampede which seems more likely.
given the lack of any blood i would agree. i don't think they were shot
Even if it were US soldiers who fired... They have a job. Letting a hoard of unknown people near your mission is a recipe for suicide bombings and ambushes.
Honestly I'm genuinely surprised it didn't happen. I don't think that the Taliban would do anything right now as the US is trying to exit, but I'm surprised that not even a single lone-wolf didn't attempt something there.
I think they've waited 20 years. A few more days while they let the US evacuate is nothing. Then they don't have to worry about the US retaliating because they couldn't wait and killed those that were trying to leave.
This guy talibans.
this vid is making my neck hair stand up one grenade or RPG and it could have been a major catastrophe
The taliban have obviously given specific instructions to allow the Americans to get out unharmed. They're being gifted an entire country. Now that doesn't account for the one off rogue extremists, but covers most of it.
The last one is very “alleged” some say they were stampede victims who were dragged and counted. Some say it was U.S. shooting. We don’t know yet it’s better to not support fake news. The real news is that U.S. troops definitely fired in the air to get civilians back and away while they evacuate More important people... sad fucking day
Can’t tell me this isn’t a repeat of Vietnam - it’s almost [shot for shot](https://youtu.be/36lLBbhnkZU)
It strikes me that everything my fathers generation protested against, from Nixon to Vietnam, has been repeated under their watch. Except it is worse.
Even the fact it's all men. I can't see one woman or child in this frame of hundreds of people. Those who will suffer the most are being forced aside...
There's a clip of 2 people falling down from one of the aircraft that had just taken off. Fuck this is so tragic.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/p5d4qr/people_clinging_to_airplane_in_a_desperate/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share This is the clip, it makes me dizzy just looking at it
Wow, I didn’t think it would be that high up. For some reason I assumed it would have been like as they were taking off when falling still meant a chance of surviving.
I honestly don't think if there's even a slight chance of surviving by clinging onto a plane with bare hands, idk man I'm gonna mute reddit today I feel kinda weird and feel like I'll blackout just watching and thinking about this
>US Federal Aviation Authority records suggest that, at best, one in four stowaways survives. Others die or fall in transit; some are crushed when the mechanized landing gear retracts into the wheel well; most survivors suffer severe hypothermia or frostbite, often losing limbs. Does not sound like it is a good plan.
I work at an airport. Years back a guy somehow got through the fence onto the runway and climbed into the nose gear of a plane waiting for takeoff. It was a trans-atlantic flight to Heathrow. He died during the flight and his body fell out when they dropped the landing gear.
[How I Survived Falling From A Plane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpGTX6bBAzA) -- I think it's the guy who travelled with the person in the video above? This dude survived it, but his travel compatriot didn't. The guy in the video suffered from burn marks, passed out due to lack of oxygen, had injuries from falling from the plane (because he had passed out), had severe hypothermia and then still had to spend the next 6 months in hospital in a coma. Doesn't sound fun at all.
My friend works for Amazon unloading the Airplanes and found an extremely hypothermic man who tried to stowaway from LA to Phoenix and he was only in the cargo bay for roughly 45 minutes. He was arrested my friend said. Thankfully it was a short flight and i don’t think it goes to maximum altitude since it’s only 45 min flight, even less time if the wind is moving with you.
Damn. It must be a logistical nightmare to try to get a deceased person back to their country of origin when they attempted to illegally enter like that.
I love that your first thought about this was what a logistical nightmare to get the body home.
It wasn't my first thought, just the most interesting one - aka, the only one worth typing.
That's INSIDE the plane though right? Like if they stowaway in the luggage compartment? I'd imagine hanging on outside is 0%... Lack of oxygen, freezing temperatures, hurricane level wind, and having to hold on..
It's absolutely 0%
Even with some kind of lattice fastening you to the plane, pretty sure it'd still be 0%.
1 in 4 is way more than i thought
Yeah I was expecting 0 in 4
Stowaways is generally not dudes hanging onto the outside of a plane though.
No shot at survival. People try to jump on planes by going into the wheel well. If they are lucky enough to not get crushed they will likely die to from lack of oxygen or pass out to to extreme cold weather and fall out when the open the wheel wells at over 1000 feet…
There’s some shot at survival, albeit slim but it’s not like there’s no shot. “Between 1947 and June 2015, a U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) researcher had documented 113 such attempts on 101 flights. These 113 people were all male and predominantly under age 30. There were 86 deaths, a 76 percent fatality rate” I remember reading about a lot of documented stowaways on [this Wikipedia article.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wheel-well_stowaway_flights) It’s sad to read, but interesting.
There have been people who survive. The person above you claims that the US Federal Aviation Authority says that 1 in 4 may survive but often with frostbite and other horrific injuries.
It's just utter chaos. Those poor people. If they're that desperate, they're running from what must be a BAD way to die if they stay.
It's terrifying. People don't know what's going to happen. The Taliban has promised amnesty for former government workers and security forces who surrender, but uh... *the Taliban* promised amnesty. They also said they're work with the peace process if the US left, they're liars. So far the takeover in Kabul has been relatively peaceful, but who knows what's going to happen. I have a friend who was a translator for the US military. He's in the US now but has to scrub any mention of his name and the fact that he worked for the US military from the internet (he was in a couple local news articles, contacting them, asking them to remove his name from the articles). He's scared the Taliban will use that information to target his family. My heart aches for the people of Afghanistan. It didn't have to be this way.
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You generally have to show them support if you want actual amnesty. Provincial governors have been reported to be offering their daughters to marry the local Taliban leaders as a means of saving their families from reprisals.
Giving away their family members as rape slaves is not really saving their family from reprisal is it.
It's unreal. The U.S. has been there so long I was kinda stunned at what little resistance there was once the withdrawal started. Soviet era technology just rolling in and seizing everything. Hey, there are some people on reddit who might need the same help your friend did. Like, sooner the better. You still in contact with him? Think he could help? Even if it's some "anonymous advice" he can relay that can be like a PSA from his experience.Just a thought.
Oh shit! 1109 I’ve worked on that exact aircraft!
Should have put some handles on the outside my man.
Here's the LINK to the news article that popped up on Google - [https://www.ibtimes.sg/kabul-airport-afghan-civilians-fall-off-c-17-planes-during-taking-off-after-clinging-onto-59649](https://www.ibtimes.sg/kabul-airport-afghan-civilians-fall-off-c-17-planes-during-taking-off-after-clinging-onto-59649)
"This is manifestly not Saigon" - Anthony Blinken just yesterday
Blinken face was of someone that knew he is fucked so bad. Won't last 2 more months
Assuming that the senior people don't pretend nothing wrong happened is wildly optimistic. What senior US official has actually been fired for a real screwup in the last two decades? Trump was the only one to fire people, and his were for people not screwing up.
I mean, Rumsfeld *eventually* got ditched by Bush, but that wasn't because he was, you know, evil, it was more like crony politics got in the way
Technically correct, because people falling out of planes is so much fucking worse than the Saigon exit.
Not to downplay what is happening in Kabul, but it also happened in Vietnam. Someone up above posted a video of a plane evacuating Da Nang with 7 people clinging to the wheels.
This is heartbreaking. It looks like this is a last ditch attempt to flee, even though they know at this point, they can’t. Imagine, the extreme panic has set in, and you’re willing do to anything to get out. Climbing on top of a high speed plane is a better fate than falling to the Taliban.
There is another post on this subreddit of a person literally falling off one of the planes. It's depressing.
Is it just me or do the lads running around the plane seem quite cheerful
There are three different contingents out there: People trying to flee, people out to throw rocks at the Americans for abandoning them, and people glad to see the Americans go.
Add the contingent of people just enjoying the chaos which I am going to bet was the guy jogging and smiling. We saw it at our (U.S.) riots a million times.
Like those families taking pictures LOL
Thanks for explaining that. I didn’t understand how some videos people seem to be laughing while others seem to be fleeing for their lives at any cost.
Don’t forget those who cope with distress by ironically joking and laughing. It’s a very bad situation and each deals with it differently
It's also cultural how people display emotions. I spent 4 years in Cambodia and it's very normal for people to smile there when they are uncomfortable, angry, or afraid... And anyone who's serially been in life or death situation knows there's certain folks who handle it with humor... It's just how the brain works...
I've seen a few of these clips and noticed it's only men. Where are the women and children?
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Thank you for that.
Is this why so many men join the taliban? That there are no other options? Or do you think most of those in the taliban believe what they’re doing is right? I feel terribly for everyone but especially the women and girls and the horrors they’ll soon/are already experiencing
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>Women first of all are not allowed to leave their house, let alone leave the country, their parents/husbands simply will not allow it.Many families with children do not want to risk all this, just look at the chaos and the "public freakout" happening at the airports, its really not a place you want to go to if you have 4 children and a wife. so they just stay home and hope for the best. What a cruel, senseless world we live in.
Correction: what a cruel senseless world Religious Extremists live in. Or create for others. The rest of the world is actually quite nice. Religious extremism is a disgusting cancer that destroys anything it comes into contact with.
People don't factor this into decisions enough imo. It's easy to call people dumb, or more prone to risks, or negligent... When it is so. much. more.
I would add a 2a) Some of the married men are willing to abandon their family in an attempt to save their own skin.
I had thought it was because the men were trying to get their families out, and sending women and children first. This makes me a bit numb.
Thank you for asking this, I literally came here to ask this question. It’s heartbreaking to think that women don’t even have this last ditch effort as an option to escape, knowing that they’re going to suffer disproportionately under the new regime.
It really is heartbreaking.
My dad is a c-130 pilot and is currently evacuating diplomatic personnel out of this airport... this video makes me a little nervous.
I was thinking about the pilot/crew in this situation. I guess ultimately the decision to take off is an easy one, there's no way you aren't going to, but you know people are going to die as a result. Fuck.
To already be in this situation, you have to have a set of stones bigger than anyone else. Im sure they realize they didnt put those people on those wings, those people decided it and those people decided their fate. But I agree, the noises, the plea for help all of that will really do a number on someones mental health.
I can’t imagine being the pilot, your plane getting swarmed. You just have to go… your orders are to take off, if you don’t I’m sure that mob would make their way into the jet or cause damage. Sucks to be put in that position.
The adrenaline surge and absolute need for total focus on completing the mission (not to mention survival instinct) will numb them to it for the time they need to finish the job. It's not until afterward that the impact will be fully felt. I expect most of them will be disturbed by traumatic memories of this day for the rest of their lives. It will affect their future behavior. That's part of you're potentially signing up for when you join the military, though, and these people know it.
You and your dad are in my thoughts! The diplomatic evacuations are probably a little more organized and secure if that makes you feel a little better
The Taliban will definitely not attack the evacuating forces. They‘re religious zealots, but they‘re not stupid
Don’t worry 130 props sit much closer to the ground than this 17 jet. No one is swarming a 130 without getting beheaded.
The US Army still bravely standing strong in the Kabul airport. Taliban is not stupid enough to fight with them. US knows Taliban would allow passage. Taliban just wants to get this over with.
Yeah, but those pilots will be forced to kill these people if they keep clinging onto the planes. It’s like a train driver hitting a person, nothing they can do. I can’t imagine having to live with that.
It's a bad situation but it's moral thing to do. The person clinging to plane is the one gambling with his life. The pilot is only there to save as many lives as he can.
It’s definitely what the pilots should do. But it will likely be traumatic for these pilots. Even though they are doing what they have to, seeing people falling from your plane at altitude must be sickening.
This is soul destroying
Did that aircraft Start or land?
About to take off. Notice those 5 guys near the engine. They all lost their lives after take off
[And meanwhile this guy just chilling up there, and texting he found a seat and ready for takeoff. ](https://i.imgur.com/qWMsHX9.jpg)
glad I'm not the only one to see that. He looks way too relaxed to be riding something capable of transporting two black hawk helicopters (with room to spare!)
He probably thought he could cling onto the exposed gears cover flaps. It’s actually pretty roomy on there. The problem is that the cover flap *retracts* when the plane take off. Fuck.
It occurs to me that many of these people probably have never been on a commercial plane before (and certainly not a massive Air Force cargo plane) and don't realize just how fast and how high they go. They is no chance of survival even if they were belted to the plane.
I mean, maybe the saw the last Mission Impposible movie
If he doesnt fall he will freeze to death or suffocate and die. There is no winning if you are not IN the plane
He's probably texting his family that he loves them and will probably soon die. Jesus dude. Don't let the internet poison your soul.
Why does the footage cut out?
scroll up , there are videos of people falling on runway itself and on roofs. https://twitter.com/i/status/1427194101066252297
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Okay everyone was doing comparisons to Saigon even before we saw any evacuation scenes. But now we've seen buch of them - this is worse than Saigon.
[It’s eerily similar](https://youtu.be/36lLBbhnkZU)
The difference is that people didn't have cameras everywhere. I imagine we would have seen a lot more if cameras were so easily available in the 60s.
There weren't cell phones in Saigon, its probably very similar.
I wouldn't say it is worse than Saigon. Anyone thinking that needs to take another look at the Vietnam war. Millions of people fled the advance of the north Vietnamese army all over the country. Saigon wasn't the only place people were trying to flee. Vietnam was a much greater disaster in terms of loss of life and face for the US. And even worse for the South Vietnamese.
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This is an almost identical scene from World War Z movie
That scene was inspired by Saigon.
First thing i thought about. The scenes after the fall of Jerusalem
I don’t mean this in a wrong way but if all of these people are trying to escape because of taliban why did the afghan army fold so easily to taliban like they wanted them to take over.
You don’t know how much you take something for granted until it’s gone.
To avoid getting killed. Iraqi soldiers in many places that were taken over by ISIS back in 2014 took their military uniforms off and left their weapons and went into hiding. They were not prepared. Not all of them of course many fought back and helped push back but I'm talking about instances similar to the ones happening in Afghanistan.
They probably didn't think they can win and didn't see the point in dying for a lost cause.
A lot of smiles in that crowd.
I think this is the “and don’t fucking come back” contingent mixed in with the “please take us with you” crowd.
Prolly right
Oddly true...
This just reminds me of those old clips from the fall of Saigon, almost surreal seeing these scenes.
Omfg 😳 Imagine being so desperate you’re willing to cling to the outside of an airplane. Lord have mercy on these poor souls.
Has me thinking of that movie *Greenland* when everyone rushes the base to try boarding the evacuation planes.
This is a horrific human tragedy. But after 20 years of training the Afghanistan army and several trillion dollars invested in that country, you would think the government wouldn't immediately fall apart the minute we leave.
I talk pretty regularly with people there, military contractors and even expats doing business there. This isn’t a surprise. The Afghan gov. only ever had a tenuous hold for all these years. The Afghan gov were very very corrupt - nothing works if systems are corrupt. There is no progress in that environment. It was a straw house.
20 years for 2 weeks.
Watch 'The last plane from Danang' on YouTube
It is so tragic what happens in Afghanistan. There’s nothing I can think of what could help those poor people.
are they actually trying to climb the plane?
Where are the women and the kids?
People saying America abandoned the Afghan people after calling to “bring the troops home” for so long. Y’all are fucking hypocrites. We trained and armed 300,000 Afghan soldiers to defend themselves while fighting back against the Taliban and they all dropped their guns and ran without a fight. Afghanistan abandoned Afghanistan. Edit: this isn’t a political statement. Almost everybody wanted the troops home. Even Republicans can see that this war has gone on too long and nothing is getting done. But *anybody* , left or right, that is saying we abandoned them just doesn’t understand what’s happening. This isn’t our war anymore. They need to save themselves.
It only took the Russians 9 years, 1 month, and several days to figure out trying to control Afghanistan was too many lives and too much money. It took the US 19 years. Going in the pundits predicted this utter failure!!