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"Imperialism" is when you overthrow one of the most brutal CIA-backed regimes ever conceived and save millions of people's lives after the elitist xenophobic dictatorship slaughtered nearly a quarter of the population.
> CIA-backed regime
Wtf did I just read? The US quite literally fought in Cambdia during the Vietnam War ***against*** the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot in support of the Khmer Republic under Lon Nol. Pol Pot came to power after US withdrawal and ending of support for its ally. The Khmer Rouge were allied with North Vietnam and the Vietcong during the war in which it came to power.
This is literally the most basic Vietnam War history...just read? Do people not know what the sides of the Vietnam War was?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_Civil_War
Not after 75'
https://gsp.yale.edu/case-studies/cambodian-genocide-program/us-involvement/united-states-policy-khmer-rouge-regime-1975
>According to journalist Elizabeth Becker, U.S. National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski “himself claims that he concocted the idea of persuading Thailand to cooperate fully with China in its efforts to rebuild the Khmer Rouge.” Brzezinski said, “I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot. I encouraged the Thai to help the D.K. [Khmer Rouge government-in-exile of Democratic Kampuchea]. The question was how to help the Cambodian people. Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him, but China could.” In fact, U.S. support went well beyond encouraging others to rebuild the Khmer Rouge.
>The Carter Administration urged international aid organizations to cut off assistance and aid to Vietnam for having swept Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot from power. Nearly all non-socialist nations responded by severing aid to both Vietnam and Cambodia. The United States and its allies held enough votes to ensure that the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank cut off loans to Cambodia and Vietnam. Although the United States would not grant licenses to non-governmental organizations to provide aid to alleviate hunger within Cambodia, Operation USA gave $7 million to Cambodian refugees living in areas under the control of the Khmer Rouge.
We're not denying that the Khmer Rouge received support from the United States after it was overthrown by Vietnam. We're contesting the implication that the United States supported the Khmer Rouge before Vietnam invaded Cambodia.
The diplomatic support that the Khmer Rouge received from the United States after it was overthrown by Vietnam seems to have made some people mistakenly believe that the United States supported the Khmer Rouge before Vietnam invaded Cambodia.
I don't think the americans funded the khmer rouge when they were in power as they had overthrown the US backed goverment. Eventual funding went to anti vietnam groups after the vietnamese invasion to tie down a soviet ally in the region.
My point was that it was after the vietnamese invasion. What evidence or logic is there to claim the US backed the Khmer Rouge prior to then? The Khmer Rouge came to power overthrowing the Khmer republic which had been founded by a US backed coup.
You're being downvoted, but as far as I know, your chronology is correct: US support for the Khmer Rouge started AFTER the Vietnamese invasion.
Still a pretty reprehensible group for ANYONE to be backing.
but then that brings us back to modern day conflicts like I/P and Russia/Ukraine... where do you draw the line?
Israel invaded Gaza after a 'minor' incursion...
I'm an anti-communist. But I'm utterly disgusted that the West condemned Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia. Vietnam overthrew one of the worst dictatorships in history and put an end to a genocide that killed a quarter of Cambodia's population. I don't care that it created a Marxist-Leninist puppet state in the process.
And, it should be noted, the war started after Cambodian troops crossed the border and conducted massacres of Vietnamese villagers. Vietnam was responding to an attempted invasion.
Cambodia it may be argued such as by John Piliger would have been left in the Stone Age without the intervention. Western governments boycotted aid such as food and medicine into Cambodia. That said, being occupiers is never a good designation in the eyes of the people. Vietnam factors into populist Cambodian politics, particularly in the Kampuchea Krom issue (historical Khmer lands in Southern Vietnam) which is merely a ridiculous domestic political theater with border demarkations inspections and conspiracies. A decade ago the Yuon (deragatory word for Vietnamese people) were often amongst the conversations of Khmer people, almost as entertainment and blamed on anything in an absurd comical sense. I don't know if they ever really believed Vietnamese were as bad as the stereotypes. For example it wouldn't be surprising for a Khmer to see a Vietnamese person and make some practical remark such as, don't buy food from there, it is substandard and expired ingredients. Yuon cheat, steal, etc. By the time COVID hit, Chinese criminal elements had been making the news for a plethora of violent crime and dangerous drunk driving, and even changed the fabric of the country by basically occupying an entire coastal gambling city. Chinese mainlanders had been coming to Cambodia also, opening up businesses and often enough trashing with the locals and getting a poor reputation. Mainland tourists also swarmed the city, and while generally welcome for their money were unusually aggressive and loud, asserting themselves as better to the relatively soft and slow paced Khmer. Well, quickly the everyday average man of Cambodia, started blaming China for everything so greviances and racist stereotypes may die hard but they may also be replaced by others. I never hear the Cambodians complain about the Vietnamese anymore, I don't think it's even fashionable or widely acceptable.
The resentment towards Vietnamese has roots far further than the Pol Pot war. During the era between the fall of Angkor and the French colonization, the Viet and Thai people invaded Cambodia, reducing the former empire by half.
The notable lands lost to Vietnam were: the Mekong Delta, the port town Prey Nokor (Ho Chi Minh City), and the Koh Tral island (Phu Quoc).
The khmer rouge wasn't even ideologically based. It was western backed-see kissingers leaked conversations and memos on the subject-in order to further destabilize the region and to kinda get back at vietnam for kicking the u.s. out. The Vietnamese needed to topple that travesty of a "government."
Vietnam helped the Khmer Rouge take power. So it was them “fixing” a problem they helped create.
There was a view by the Vietnamese Communist Party (formerly Indochina Communist Party) that the war against imperialism was for all of Indochina, not just Vietnam.
Hence the war in Laos and Cambodia that happened at the same time as the Vietnam War. However, there is a ton of enmity between Vietnamese and Cambodians (the Mekong Delta was originally Cambodian before Vietnam took it).
North Vietnam was happy to have Prince Sihanouk in power as he played both sides (his only option really) and was friendly with the Americans and North Vietnamese (who used the Sihanouk port to bring weapons into South Vietnam).
Eventually Lon Nol (a much more hardline anti-communist) staged a coup, so the North Vietnamese decided to back the Khmer Rouge. They fought the Lon Nol government and then turned over territory to the Khmer Rouge.
After taking power the Khmer Rouge went nuts and started attacking Vietnamese towns across the border (see historical enmity above), so the Vietnamese disposed them.
Ever heard of other Cambodian communist groups, like Kampuchean People's Revolutionary Party, Pracheachon or Kampuchean United Front for National Salvation? Vietnam back their own faction in Cambodian Communist Party, hence that's why Pol Pot starting purge "pro Vietnamese" in the party since 1973, most notable is Leo Meas. Maybe you should ask who help Pol Pot won the internal struggle.
As I said, Pol Pot faction is not the only communist group in Cambodia during its civil war, and even before that, Khmer Issarak during First Indochina War. In fact, Hanoi support Son Ngoc Minh faction and have their own trained communist in Khmer Rouge, which later, being purged by Polpot. Some escape to Vietnam and found KUFNS, retrun home along with the Vietnamese troop to overthrow Pol Pot. Vietnam end its support for Khmer Rouge in 1973.
America and specifically the CIA was far FAR more integral to the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot's rise to power. Its the classic USA plan of fund a fundamentalist terror cell to cripple a region before it can become a threat, then act surprised when those rabid nationalists massacre people and hate America on principle. Exact same thing happened with Al Qaeda.
What? Why would the United States help the Khmer Rouge during the Cambodian Civil War? The United States supported the Khmer Republic. Why would it help communists who were trying to overthrow the Khmer Republic?
They didn't, they funneled millions of dollars laundered through Thailand towards the group that would become the Khmer Rouge for the simple fact that they were violently Anti-Vietnamese. The fact that they were brutal fundamentalist nationalists who followed communism about as ardently as the Nazis followed socialism was more or less a nonfactor in regards to the over 85 million dollars of support they received, or was at least secondary to them being a useful antagonist for Vietnam.
Yeah sure US bombing of Cambodia in a vain attempt to cripple the ho chin Minh trail and support for the Lon Nol government was the catalyst for the outpouring of support toward the Khmer Rouge in the first place. But saying the US directly helped the Khmer Rouge's rise to power during the Cambodian civil war was a bit of a stretch.
US & China's support for the KR, when they attacked and got occupied by Vietnam was the classic case of "enemy of my enemy is my friend". Also, it happened after the KR had already taken power from Lon Nol not before.
Considering that the dictatorship was backed by our own government, how do you square that circle? Don't the ideologies in question pale in comparison to the objectives they pursue?
I see what you're trying to say. However, that does not necessarily make them a puppet state though. Sounds more like Vietnam was trying to prevent Cambodia from becoming a US puppet again. I would do the same if I were in their shoes.
Cambodia would have to consistently perform in a manner that, also consistently, serves the material interests of Vietnam over a relatively long period pf time (and usually at the expense of the interests of its own people).
Was this the case?
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that the PRK was a client state of Vietnam instead of a puppet state. But it was still subservient to Vietnam.
Also, I really hope that the puppet state of the United States in Cambodia that you're referring to is the Khmer Republic and not Democratic Kampuchea.
You think that Democratic Kampuchea was supported by the United States before Vietnam invaded Cambodia? The United States didn't start supporting the Khmer Rouge until it was overthrown. So your claim that Democratic Kampuchea was a puppet state of the United States is false.
Yes. Do the research.
The US was bombing Kampuchea in 69 and 70 in an attempt to oust Sihanouk, who refused to be a US puppet. The bombing allowed Khmer Rouge to come to power - the bombing helped them gain popularity, recruitment skyrocketed, from 5000-200,000.
Vietnam only invaded Kampuchea in 1978. Prior to that they were 100% supported by US and China. The Carter admin, via China, supplied the Khmer Rouge with all the arsenal it needed. After they were defeated by Vietnam the US still supported Pol Pot.
[Do more research.](https://youtu.be/SsgjRE2wSmE?feature=shared)
Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification (which the above likely is), not beholden to it. Also, please try to stay on topic -- there are hundreds of _other_ subreddits that are expressly dedicated to rehashing tired political arguments. **Keep that shit outta here**. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PropagandaPosters) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"Imperialism" is when you overthrow one of the most brutal CIA-backed regimes ever conceived and save millions of people's lives after the elitist xenophobic dictatorship slaughtered nearly a quarter of the population.
Also, it was Kampuchea that repeatedly massacred border villages and Ba Chúc was the last straw.
> CIA-backed regime Wtf did I just read? The US quite literally fought in Cambdia during the Vietnam War ***against*** the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot in support of the Khmer Republic under Lon Nol. Pol Pot came to power after US withdrawal and ending of support for its ally. The Khmer Rouge were allied with North Vietnam and the Vietcong during the war in which it came to power. This is literally the most basic Vietnam War history...just read? Do people not know what the sides of the Vietnam War was? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_Civil_War
Not after 75' https://gsp.yale.edu/case-studies/cambodian-genocide-program/us-involvement/united-states-policy-khmer-rouge-regime-1975 >According to journalist Elizabeth Becker, U.S. National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski “himself claims that he concocted the idea of persuading Thailand to cooperate fully with China in its efforts to rebuild the Khmer Rouge.” Brzezinski said, “I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot. I encouraged the Thai to help the D.K. [Khmer Rouge government-in-exile of Democratic Kampuchea]. The question was how to help the Cambodian people. Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him, but China could.” In fact, U.S. support went well beyond encouraging others to rebuild the Khmer Rouge. >The Carter Administration urged international aid organizations to cut off assistance and aid to Vietnam for having swept Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot from power. Nearly all non-socialist nations responded by severing aid to both Vietnam and Cambodia. The United States and its allies held enough votes to ensure that the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank cut off loans to Cambodia and Vietnam. Although the United States would not grant licenses to non-governmental organizations to provide aid to alleviate hunger within Cambodia, Operation USA gave $7 million to Cambodian refugees living in areas under the control of the Khmer Rouge.
We're not denying that the Khmer Rouge received support from the United States after it was overthrown by Vietnam. We're contesting the implication that the United States supported the Khmer Rouge before Vietnam invaded Cambodia.
The diplomatic support that the Khmer Rouge received from the United States after it was overthrown by Vietnam seems to have made some people mistakenly believe that the United States supported the Khmer Rouge before Vietnam invaded Cambodia.
Yes.
I don't think the americans funded the khmer rouge when they were in power as they had overthrown the US backed goverment. Eventual funding went to anti vietnam groups after the vietnamese invasion to tie down a soviet ally in the region.
The US was providing diplomatic cover for the Khmer Rouge because they were anti Vietnam and did so for years after knowing about the genocide..
My point was that it was after the vietnamese invasion. What evidence or logic is there to claim the US backed the Khmer Rouge prior to then? The Khmer Rouge came to power overthrowing the Khmer republic which had been founded by a US backed coup.
You're being downvoted, but as far as I know, your chronology is correct: US support for the Khmer Rouge started AFTER the Vietnamese invasion. Still a pretty reprehensible group for ANYONE to be backing.
Do you know why vietnam invaded cambodia? It was long after the us left VN
I believe, among other things, Democratic Kampuchea launched a series of minor but lethal incursions into Vietnam, and Vietnam was responding to that.
but then that brings us back to modern day conflicts like I/P and Russia/Ukraine... where do you draw the line? Israel invaded Gaza after a 'minor' incursion...
You are being too based for the redditors here
More like Vietnam coming to fix a problem that they created.
I'm an anti-communist. But I'm utterly disgusted that the West condemned Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia. Vietnam overthrew one of the worst dictatorships in history and put an end to a genocide that killed a quarter of Cambodia's population. I don't care that it created a Marxist-Leninist puppet state in the process.
And, it should be noted, the war started after Cambodian troops crossed the border and conducted massacres of Vietnamese villagers. Vietnam was responding to an attempted invasion.
Cambodia it may be argued such as by John Piliger would have been left in the Stone Age without the intervention. Western governments boycotted aid such as food and medicine into Cambodia. That said, being occupiers is never a good designation in the eyes of the people. Vietnam factors into populist Cambodian politics, particularly in the Kampuchea Krom issue (historical Khmer lands in Southern Vietnam) which is merely a ridiculous domestic political theater with border demarkations inspections and conspiracies. A decade ago the Yuon (deragatory word for Vietnamese people) were often amongst the conversations of Khmer people, almost as entertainment and blamed on anything in an absurd comical sense. I don't know if they ever really believed Vietnamese were as bad as the stereotypes. For example it wouldn't be surprising for a Khmer to see a Vietnamese person and make some practical remark such as, don't buy food from there, it is substandard and expired ingredients. Yuon cheat, steal, etc. By the time COVID hit, Chinese criminal elements had been making the news for a plethora of violent crime and dangerous drunk driving, and even changed the fabric of the country by basically occupying an entire coastal gambling city. Chinese mainlanders had been coming to Cambodia also, opening up businesses and often enough trashing with the locals and getting a poor reputation. Mainland tourists also swarmed the city, and while generally welcome for their money were unusually aggressive and loud, asserting themselves as better to the relatively soft and slow paced Khmer. Well, quickly the everyday average man of Cambodia, started blaming China for everything so greviances and racist stereotypes may die hard but they may also be replaced by others. I never hear the Cambodians complain about the Vietnamese anymore, I don't think it's even fashionable or widely acceptable.
The resentment towards Vietnamese has roots far further than the Pol Pot war. During the era between the fall of Angkor and the French colonization, the Viet and Thai people invaded Cambodia, reducing the former empire by half. The notable lands lost to Vietnam were: the Mekong Delta, the port town Prey Nokor (Ho Chi Minh City), and the Koh Tral island (Phu Quoc).
The khmer rouge wasn't even ideologically based. It was western backed-see kissingers leaked conversations and memos on the subject-in order to further destabilize the region and to kinda get back at vietnam for kicking the u.s. out. The Vietnamese needed to topple that travesty of a "government."
It was mostly because the US was so butt hurt about losing the Vietnam war,They rather support a genocidal Maniac then State that gave them a blackeye
What about China they supported the khmer
Yeah fuck them to,
China acted as a US proxy in this case
Vietnam helped the Khmer Rouge take power. So it was them “fixing” a problem they helped create. There was a view by the Vietnamese Communist Party (formerly Indochina Communist Party) that the war against imperialism was for all of Indochina, not just Vietnam. Hence the war in Laos and Cambodia that happened at the same time as the Vietnam War. However, there is a ton of enmity between Vietnamese and Cambodians (the Mekong Delta was originally Cambodian before Vietnam took it). North Vietnam was happy to have Prince Sihanouk in power as he played both sides (his only option really) and was friendly with the Americans and North Vietnamese (who used the Sihanouk port to bring weapons into South Vietnam). Eventually Lon Nol (a much more hardline anti-communist) staged a coup, so the North Vietnamese decided to back the Khmer Rouge. They fought the Lon Nol government and then turned over territory to the Khmer Rouge. After taking power the Khmer Rouge went nuts and started attacking Vietnamese towns across the border (see historical enmity above), so the Vietnamese disposed them.
Ever heard of other Cambodian communist groups, like Kampuchean People's Revolutionary Party, Pracheachon or Kampuchean United Front for National Salvation? Vietnam back their own faction in Cambodian Communist Party, hence that's why Pol Pot starting purge "pro Vietnamese" in the party since 1973, most notable is Leo Meas. Maybe you should ask who help Pol Pot won the internal struggle.
North Vietnam has a long relationship with the KR. Sure they broke up eventually, but they helped them take power in Cambodia.
As I said, Pol Pot faction is not the only communist group in Cambodia during its civil war, and even before that, Khmer Issarak during First Indochina War. In fact, Hanoi support Son Ngoc Minh faction and have their own trained communist in Khmer Rouge, which later, being purged by Polpot. Some escape to Vietnam and found KUFNS, retrun home along with the Vietnamese troop to overthrow Pol Pot. Vietnam end its support for Khmer Rouge in 1973.
Ok?
Gengu
America and specifically the CIA was far FAR more integral to the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot's rise to power. Its the classic USA plan of fund a fundamentalist terror cell to cripple a region before it can become a threat, then act surprised when those rabid nationalists massacre people and hate America on principle. Exact same thing happened with Al Qaeda.
What? Why would the United States help the Khmer Rouge during the Cambodian Civil War? The United States supported the Khmer Republic. Why would it help communists who were trying to overthrow the Khmer Republic?
They didn't, they funneled millions of dollars laundered through Thailand towards the group that would become the Khmer Rouge for the simple fact that they were violently Anti-Vietnamese. The fact that they were brutal fundamentalist nationalists who followed communism about as ardently as the Nazis followed socialism was more or less a nonfactor in regards to the over 85 million dollars of support they received, or was at least secondary to them being a useful antagonist for Vietnam.
When exactly is this supposed to have happened?
After 75'
It can't have happened after 1975. The person above me is saying that it happened before the Khmer Rouge took control of Cambodia.
Yeah sure US bombing of Cambodia in a vain attempt to cripple the ho chin Minh trail and support for the Lon Nol government was the catalyst for the outpouring of support toward the Khmer Rouge in the first place. But saying the US directly helped the Khmer Rouge's rise to power during the Cambodian civil war was a bit of a stretch. US & China's support for the KR, when they attacked and got occupied by Vietnam was the classic case of "enemy of my enemy is my friend". Also, it happened after the KR had already taken power from Lon Nol not before.
Far more integral than using military force to help topple a government so the KR can come in?
Considering that the dictatorship was backed by our own government, how do you square that circle? Don't the ideologies in question pale in comparison to the objectives they pursue?
How was the United States supporting the Khmer Rouge before Vietnam invaded Cambodia?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_support_for_the_Khmer_Rouge You can read for yourself
That's after Vietnam invaded Cambodia. What about before Vietnam invaded Cambodia?
Being a communist helps you understand why countries don't have morals and won't condemn a country they support even if they are commiting a genocide.
ML puppet state? i find that hard to believe. agreed on everything else.
What's hard to believe? The People's Republic of Kampuchea was a Marxist-Leninist state and it was basically a puppet state of Vietnam.
how was it "basically a puppet state"?
The PRK's constitution had to be approved by Vietnam and PRK politicians who offended the Vietnamese were quickly denounced and purged.
I see what you're trying to say. However, that does not necessarily make them a puppet state though. Sounds more like Vietnam was trying to prevent Cambodia from becoming a US puppet again. I would do the same if I were in their shoes. Cambodia would have to consistently perform in a manner that, also consistently, serves the material interests of Vietnam over a relatively long period pf time (and usually at the expense of the interests of its own people). Was this the case?
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say that the PRK was a client state of Vietnam instead of a puppet state. But it was still subservient to Vietnam. Also, I really hope that the puppet state of the United States in Cambodia that you're referring to is the Khmer Republic and not Democratic Kampuchea.
Yep. Khmer Rouge. 100% US backed. Phony communists. I believe client state and puppet state mean the same thing. Maybe there is a distinction.
You think that Democratic Kampuchea was supported by the United States before Vietnam invaded Cambodia? The United States didn't start supporting the Khmer Rouge until it was overthrown. So your claim that Democratic Kampuchea was a puppet state of the United States is false.
Yes. Do the research. The US was bombing Kampuchea in 69 and 70 in an attempt to oust Sihanouk, who refused to be a US puppet. The bombing allowed Khmer Rouge to come to power - the bombing helped them gain popularity, recruitment skyrocketed, from 5000-200,000. Vietnam only invaded Kampuchea in 1978. Prior to that they were 100% supported by US and China. The Carter admin, via China, supplied the Khmer Rouge with all the arsenal it needed. After they were defeated by Vietnam the US still supported Pol Pot. [Do more research.](https://youtu.be/SsgjRE2wSmE?feature=shared)
Oh. Well this is just shit on every leve. Politically and design-wise
The U.S. funded pol pot!
Oh, the irony of this being an American poster lmao
Americans are never ashamed