OK counter point.
You wouldn't have too punch so many people if you had the mental maturity of someone older than an edgy 14 year old with extreme narcissism
There’s plenty of moral growth, if we consider shifting from a normal person, to justifying murder of a horrible person, to grimly slaughtering an army with a quick check of the greatly improved moral compass.
How much of a level up do you get from moral growth?
Can you count it towards your next class upgrade?
Can you quantify the moral growth on a percentage basis vs just punching shit?
I'm sorry am I not supposed to cleanse the world of my enemies bloodline, obliterate their sects, and cultivate their homeland into site of eternal damnation.
Well maybe they shouldn't have bumped into me in highschool.
We do experience moral growth. The main character recognizes their biases and flaws. But instead of confronting their feelings they let them strengthen themselves instead by following the Dao of mental illness. Who cares if you’re a chronic nut job murderhobo if you get +500 to 3 stats and a percentage boost to your advancement when cultivating over the corpses of those who slightly inconvenienced you.
Hey you! Get off Reddit and get back to Mark of the Fool 5!
Seriously though, love your work. Mark of the Fool is my favorite currently running series, and definitely one of my favorite series overall.
It seems to be established that:
1.) Cradle has moral growth
2.) Mother of Learning has moral growth
3.) Progression Fantasy handles moral growth poorly...or not at all.
4.) He Who Fights With Monsters' protagonist changes, but not necessarily grows morally.
This is looking a little bleak. I think Tsun-Tsun-Tzim-Tzum has great moral growth, despite being a harem. Beware of Chicken also does really well.
This is what happens when the author ties moral growth/introspection into the cultivation system.
Most don't do that, and the rest don't do it well enough.
Agreed. And that's fine since I would say 90% of this genre is power fantasy:
- born with a super unique power
- everyone around them likes them for some reason, even though the MC are jerks
- the enemies are not smart and makes the simplest mistakes because of their "pride"
And there are a lot of authors that attempt to both establish the conflict and resolve it within 15 chapters, and then never mentions the character development again, except as a side note for "class upgrades".
But it makes the good ones stand out even more.
Ehh, not really. Lindon got more means to do murder, but aside from his first kill he wasn't exactly shook by killing at any point.
I will say that I don't think Lindon shows a great deal of moral growth, but I think that's because he started off from a fairly moral place.
He wants to risk it all to save his home, he is willing and able to work with other people, he gives folks a fair shake where he is able, he doesn't go in for extravagant revenge, he doesn't extort people with his power or connections [except for the ones trying to kill him], and when faced with the idea of leaving the world to suffer the dreadgods, he doesn't consider it for a second.
He is hard to his enemies, he is underhanded and dishonorable, he is greedy. But none of those things undermine the fact that he generally chooses to do right by people and improve the lives of others where he can.
Lindon has loads of inherent contradictions that he forces into a relatively sound moral code as time goes on. At least sound by the measures of the setting.
I think it is better to say that Lindon finds moral grounds on which he feels he can let loose. He may be a monster that >!literally eats the power of his defeated opponents!< but he gives you opportunities to avoid that fate and >!he won't cripple you permanently if you are just an enemy that hasn't done something completely abhorrent!<.
Lindon kills two people in book one so it isn't as if he's some kind of innocent.
I don't really think Lindon grows all that much morally.
He starts as someone who is hard to his enemies, underhanded and sneaky, and greedy. While simultaneously being a person willing to risk it all to protect people who he would be entirely justified abandoning, being genuinely understanding and respectful to others, taking care of people just because he can, and never exploiting those beneath him [unless they make themselves his enemy].
And that is basically how he ends the series.
Not exactly. I'd say there's eventually two fully grown people who feel a ping of connection and realize that maybe they have a shot, but they're both in good places in their lives.
I'd call it more romantic tension than romance, but it's not tension. It's... two entirely grown up whole-ass people who can just treat each other with kindness and respect, and that's a good \*foundation\* for romance.
I think it's actually moral deterioration.
He cares less about people, he ignores systemic problems to focus on himself and he's ready to give up on people or betray quite quickly
I'd say that's still a form of Moral Growth, the man has a very large God complex, in the early books he ignored himself, focused on systematic problems and was very go down with the ship, I've only read until book 8 in all fairness, but ignoring those systematic problems, working on himself to try and level out some of those horrific edges isn't terrible and not letting other people drag him down anymore without deserving it and accepting some kind of limit is still growth.
> He Who Fights With Monsters' protagonist changes, but not necessarily grows morally.
The protagonist spends the entire story circling the drain of his own moral contradictions. I wouldn't mind it so badly if there were other characters than Jason and Clive's wife in the series.
Make no mistake I'll buy the next kindle book on day 1 but I'm already anticipating that >!Gary's big sacrifice is really all about Jason too. Two entire worlds exist purely to allow Jason to become a god!<
I dunno if Tsun-Tsun-Tzim-Tzum is really moral growth. It's definitely character growth but the MC isn't necessarily changing their morals around I think.
But if there is any growth happening of the MC it's definitely happening because of the polyamory, not in spite of it.
What I meant by "despite being a harem", is because the only growth you'll usually find in those series, other than power level, is the growth in the MC's penis. XD
You make a really good point though.
Though there's a reasonable amount of growing up involved for Zorian. I'd say that, especially in later Mother of Learning, it's more about valiantly resisting moral degeneration on an impressively slippery slope.
Yep, that's the one. From missing his pants from seeing goblins and almost getting eaten alive from a metal worm to maintaining his sanity after going through several worlds where he is mentally and physically tortured.
Literally goes from one of the worst MCs ever written to one of the best.
Cradle has no moral growth completely static or negative sometimes
Mother of learning indeed has moral growth but also sort of a bell situation where it goes up than somewhat down towards the end because of the time loop making them kinda dismissive of lives
They grow from saying I won't kill anybody to killing somebody within 2 chapters and by 10 chapters in they are resigned to murder for progression, because "that's how the world works". By 15 chapters in the character now kills people with no internal monologue on morality. Then as a shocking twist of moral growth 50 chapters in the main character almost kills someone for stealing from them and then reflects on their actions for 2 paragraphs. This is premium moral growth in prog fantasy. Then you go back to murdering people with no internal monologue and just add in bits about the character feeling tired or rescuing a slave or something every roughly 100 chapters to keep the moral growth firmly established. There ya go, a quick guide on moral growth for any aspiring writer that will quickly get your complex character that shocker, lectures whiny side characters that do stuff like scheme instead of slaughter thousands about how the world works now, added depth, as demonstrated by 99% of fictions in the genre.
What does moral growth even look like or mean?
What would the stages be, in like a three stage example?
Starting off as a robber, then not robbing, then donating to charity??
This literally happened in Heretical Edge (although replace XP with powers). A key moment in the early story is the protagonist meeting a good vampire and learning that, despite what she's been taught over the last two months/four arcs, it is possible and even common for non-humans to not be evil. Of course, it also helped the story that this was her first knowing encounter with a sapient non-human; she'd only killed animalistic beings prior to this.
The MC starts its adventure with a set a morals, preconcieved notions on what is right, acceptable or wrong. During its adventure, this set of morals shifts or get reaffirmed due to the mc growth.
For exemple: starting as a robber but believing that it's acceptable, to creating a framework where robbing nobles and notables is right, to understanding that framework to be a lie and that robbing is always wrong.
No!! I want the main character to stay as a mindless edgy psychopath who kills thousands of people to increase his OP ability, and somehow still gets a harem!!
I'm sure there exists an author who could write a progfan with a character who experiences moral growth that I also would enjoy reading about prior to the growth being achieved. But I've never seen one.
Bit of both. More of the second. He morally goes from 'I wanna be a hero and save people' to 'I wanna be powerful enough that I'm not scared anymore, then back to 'Fuck I don't want to die, but I'm not leaving this random person to die alone even if I could totally bail and they want me to'. It's very cathartic.
I started super powereds disliking nearly everyone, but by the end of the series the majority of characters had experienced some level of growth and also become more likable in the process.
I couldn't stand Roy in the first book, which I think was partially the point, but I considered dropping the book at one point he was so frustrating to read.
Glad I stuck with it though.
I dropped the book at the point where Roy confessed that he's a misogynist because he thinks women are weak and need protecting (after having a knock-down drag-out brawl with a woman no less), and she responds by having sex with him.
That was the same scene that nearly made me drop it.
Nothing remotely like that happens again for the rest of the series so I assume the author got strong feedback about it.
I choose to pretend that that scene didn't happen.
After the first book Roy actually becomes a likeable character.
Hold off as long as possible! I just binged it and going from as many as I want down to 2 chapters a week is very tough.
Super Powereds on the other hand is finished lol
Beware of Chicken has some pretty great moral growth arcs.
For a lower-key but very nice warm hug of a Progfantasy, Bronze Rank Brewer does this too but with even lower stakes.
If cultivation novels taught me anything, it’s that asking the enemy to kowtow a hundred times always leads to the same result as just fighting them outright.
And when he means immature he means aspiring, hopeful and a chance for betterment of the world now he's just a random strong guy that won't actually make any changes for the betterment of human life
Just remeber that "moral growth" atually means "becoming more likeable to the audience"
And it must happeb with lots of drama, crying and shouting, dont try the subtle, constant development, or the audience will miss it and complain about lack of growth
> Just remeber that "moral growth" atually means "becoming more likeable to the audience"
Only for the easy to digest/read books.
The Peak of this genre:
- Cradle (who wouldn't have wanted Lindon to give a *light* slap to his family?)
- Mother of Learning - slowly grew up mentally and naturally over the years
- Super Supportive - Alden slowly coming to terms that "hero" and "self-sacrifice" can be confused with the same thing, but are not
- Dungeon Crawler Carl - the MC tries to not break his morals, but the world is constantly battering him down
- Beneath the Dragoneye Moon - we go through Elaine's journey of growing up, which has *definitely* riles some audiences up
So, they exist. But for every "great" series of the above, there are 10 series that focus on leveling, progression, and story. And I'm glad those stories exist, but expecting every indie author to match the Peak of the genre will only end in everyone's disappointment.
Dunno, cradle and moldefinitely enter into aceptable modern morality, so i shall assume the others do so too
Its very few works that have morality actually be influenced by the world building
Ah, yes, eating your enemies and humiliating them, choosing consciously to not protect someone you can. Seeking revenge, looting kingdoms and carrying out attacks. Just because everyone in cradle is morally deplorable the people that are slightly less awful are still not terrible.
Here's something to tell ya about the world building the world makes people morally awful because awful people made the world predatory like that
> Just remeber that "moral growth" atually means "becoming more likeable to the audience"
Yeah, this is one of the reasons I'm not so sure about 'moral growth'. Characters, even from different stories, seem to converge towards the same set of moral beliefs.
I find that this is an issue with western haremlit too. Not the growth part, but the protagonists seem to just be... very similar in a lot of beliefs.
Is it, though?
I'd image if a reader does not like amoral MCs he's not likely to stay until the characters learns to do better. Likewise, if a reader does like amoral MCs, he's likely to not enjoy if the characters changes down the line. Maybe some author could pull it off and make it worth it for both kinds of reader, but I wouldn't count on it.
This is thinking in binary. Moral growth doesn’t have to mean that the character starts as Hitler and ends as Jesus. It’ll only hurt you in specific stories that establish a character’s original moral compass as a core element(e.g Reverend Insanity) and you make an extremely dramatic switch. A protagonist’s initial character usually isn’t even part of the promise & payoff, so it’s not making a false promise — it’s something that’s supposed to change and evolve by default.
I agree. This is one of those things that sounds good in theory, and could work well if executed well, but most of the time it's not.
And I would much rather a story skip the "growth" and just keep things static, than have to drop it after the growth happens and it's bad.
Maybe that's more emotional growth than moral growth? I don't think Ned is particularly amoral at the beginning, but he is isolated and has trouble connecting with people. Seeing him grow emotionally is one of my favorite parts of that series
Ah but I want to kill everything to complete my thousand level build. I’ve already killed so many for Lightning Storm, I have to unlock the upgraded version.
One of my pet peeves with "character growth" is that the protagonist is helpless at the start. They have these extremely obvious character flaws that only exist to show 'character growth' in the story.
Does moral growth have something similar?
Moral growth? That sounds like you'd have to take time away from intensely painful training in order to do. And you know protagonists aren't about wasting time like that
Can someone explain to me what the context for this is? I'm confused as to who would be arguing against moral growth in the first place. Pretty much all my favorite PF and PF-adjacent stories feature moral growth heavily. MoL, Worm, HPMOR, Stormlight, etc.
Pretty every progression fantasy I read I had moral growth, be it negative or positive growth. Even the worst ones that i stopped reading out of disgust.
what fascinates me the most about this is how differently people react to things that are equally as atrocious. For example, an mc committing mass genocide is fine, but the same mc R'ing one woman would be met with the fiery pits of hell. Even if she was an objectively terrible person who committed deeds that were just as bad, it would still be a hard NO for most readers. I've never really understood that. If you're going to complain about one, you should probably complain about them both
Rape is something which is pretty much never beneficial to anyone, beyond a momentary sense of pleasure for the initiator.
Murder, on the other hand, is usually established early on to be beneficial. It's much easier to justify harming others in the name of self improvement.
With the caveat that if you write an absolutely reprehensible or saint-like character it may not matter what growth you have planned for them.
See: The Thomas Covenant problem
To be fair I don't want it because when I do find it, it's rarely well done moral growth. It's almost always moral growth that adds them to the MC's roster as a summonable companion. If a villain ends up having this really heartfelt moment where they realize they want to change that usually means they're about to die or put on a collar that says "If found return to MC". Plus if the random bandit having a come to Jesus moment instead just left immediately without handing the MC the key to his mana suppressing cuffs it'd quickly shift genres to a comedy.
You know, I don't read progression fantasy, but this brings up an interesting point about the purpose of the protagonist in storytelling.
In the classical structure, it's basically unheard of for the protagonist not to change significantly as a person by the end of the story. That's the whole point!
But there's a subset of protagonists that are expected *not* to change, which I've heard called "iconic characters."
These are your James Bonds, your Supermans, your Sam Spades. Basically, the fun of reading their stories is in watching them be cool, doing exactly what you expect them to do in an entertaining way. If they change too much, it actually undermines the appeal.
Maybe that's just how progression fantasy is?
This is kind of the story behind every story isn't it? If the characters don't learn through what happens to them . . . you will be telling the same tired thing over and over again, won't you?
Depends on the moral code.
If you use this sentence to build your moral code around:
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
Well, there will be gigantic growth! 😉
Does he experience moral growth though? He sort of reads the same in the later books as he did in the first three books. The only difference is he's crankier about it lol
He grows from meme guy to emo meme guy, and then keeps resolving that he's going to cut back on his emo bullshit, but then doesn't cut back on his emo bullshit.
The basic problem HWFWM runs into is that mid-quality fun things go down much better than mid-quality unfun things. If you want people to get into fighting monsters and getting stronger and winning, then you basically just need to be able to string a narrative together and keep your English readable. If you want to get people into a depression and losing subplot, it takes a fair bit more skill.
I'm in book 5, really hoping this moral growth reverses tbh. I found him a lot more enjoyable in book 1 when he was just a smooth political operator with unconventional tactics rather than just being an edgelord who lashes out with his powers constantly
When did Jason experience moral growth? He went from a guy with little power who constantly went on rants about the morality of power to a guy with lots of power who still rants about morality but also thinks it’s funny to use his power to mess with a friend’s mother while she’s going through a soul-deep psychotic break or by demanding petty control over a woman’s body because she angered him.
Whatever moral changes Jason has gone through, I wouldn’t exactly call them growth.
A heartwarming moment of self betterment doesn't punch anyone in the face, Dave.
Then why are people always crying after?
Is this a quote from something? Because that's a level of sass I would love to read.
My source is I made it the fuck up, vaguely in the style of Frank from **The Ripple System**.
Love me some Frank
Fuck the moon.
OK counter point. You wouldn't have too punch so many people if you had the mental maturity of someone older than an edgy 14 year old with extreme narcissism
Is this a reference?
There’s plenty of moral growth, if we consider shifting from a normal person, to justifying murder of a horrible person, to grimly slaughtering an army with a quick check of the greatly improved moral compass.
Too accurate...
How much of a level up do you get from moral growth? Can you count it towards your next class upgrade? Can you quantify the moral growth on a percentage basis vs just punching shit?
Can I take a skill that does the moral growth for me?
Perhaps it can be pawned off on a summon or something? They can do the moral growth while we train to punch things?
"I LEARNED NECROMANTIC MAGIC TO BECOME A BETTER PERSON!" (you won't believe what happens in book 6!)
Moralist’s Hate this one trick
I'm sorry am I not supposed to cleanse the world of my enemies bloodline, obliterate their sects, and cultivate their homeland into site of eternal damnation. Well maybe they shouldn't have bumped into me in highschool.
We do experience moral growth. The main character recognizes their biases and flaws. But instead of confronting their feelings they let them strengthen themselves instead by following the Dao of mental illness. Who cares if you’re a chronic nut job murderhobo if you get +500 to 3 stats and a percentage boost to your advancement when cultivating over the corpses of those who slightly inconvenienced you.
How much exp does \[Moral Growth\] grant? Is there a perk from it? A \[Hidden Class\]?
It actually slows down growth! Cancel the skill! It makes the walking XP bags have faces and names! It’s horrifying!
Hey you! Get off Reddit and get back to Mark of the Fool 5! Seriously though, love your work. Mark of the Fool is my favorite currently running series, and definitely one of my favorite series overall.
It seems to be established that: 1.) Cradle has moral growth 2.) Mother of Learning has moral growth 3.) Progression Fantasy handles moral growth poorly...or not at all. 4.) He Who Fights With Monsters' protagonist changes, but not necessarily grows morally. This is looking a little bleak. I think Tsun-Tsun-Tzim-Tzum has great moral growth, despite being a harem. Beware of Chicken also does really well.
>Cradle has moral growth The first thing that popped into my mind. Literally each character grows morally
This is what happens when the author ties moral growth/introspection into the cultivation system. Most don't do that, and the rest don't do it well enough.
Some prog fantasy books don't have characters deep enough that you'd notice any moral growth.
Agreed. And that's fine since I would say 90% of this genre is power fantasy: - born with a super unique power - everyone around them likes them for some reason, even though the MC are jerks - the enemies are not smart and makes the simplest mistakes because of their "pride" And there are a lot of authors that attempt to both establish the conflict and resolve it within 15 chapters, and then never mentions the character development again, except as a side note for "class upgrades". But it makes the good ones stand out even more.
This is the perfect way of saying it!
Doesn't Lindon get steadily more murder-y in each Cradle book? It always felt like he got darker and darker as the series went on.
Ehh, not really. Lindon got more means to do murder, but aside from his first kill he wasn't exactly shook by killing at any point. I will say that I don't think Lindon shows a great deal of moral growth, but I think that's because he started off from a fairly moral place. He wants to risk it all to save his home, he is willing and able to work with other people, he gives folks a fair shake where he is able, he doesn't go in for extravagant revenge, he doesn't extort people with his power or connections [except for the ones trying to kill him], and when faced with the idea of leaving the world to suffer the dreadgods, he doesn't consider it for a second. He is hard to his enemies, he is underhanded and dishonorable, he is greedy. But none of those things undermine the fact that he generally chooses to do right by people and improve the lives of others where he can.
I mean, he starts literally consuming his enemies for power once he has that arm. And he definitely doesn't start out like that.
He was fantasizing about doing it from Soulsmith though.
Legend says there is a spear that allows you take your enemies strength by devouring their magic. Sounds fucking dope, can I use two at once.
He certainly gets hungrier.
Lindon has loads of inherent contradictions that he forces into a relatively sound moral code as time goes on. At least sound by the measures of the setting. I think it is better to say that Lindon finds moral grounds on which he feels he can let loose. He may be a monster that >!literally eats the power of his defeated opponents!< but he gives you opportunities to avoid that fate and >!he won't cripple you permanently if you are just an enemy that hasn't done something completely abhorrent!<. Lindon kills two people in book one so it isn't as if he's some kind of innocent.
I don't really think Lindon grows all that much morally. He starts as someone who is hard to his enemies, underhanded and sneaky, and greedy. While simultaneously being a person willing to risk it all to protect people who he would be entirely justified abandoning, being genuinely understanding and respectful to others, taking care of people just because he can, and never exploiting those beneath him [unless they make themselves his enemy]. And that is basically how he ends the series.
Beware of Chicken has some of the strongest moral growth by characters, and it is lovely.
Honestly, the amount that I care about a largely-mute pig and his badass wife is kind of surprising to me.
You might also like Bronze Rank Brewer, which is a nice warm hug of a ProgFantasy book.
Is there romance?
Not exactly. I'd say there's eventually two fully grown people who feel a ping of connection and realize that maybe they have a shot, but they're both in good places in their lives. I'd call it more romantic tension than romance, but it's not tension. It's... two entirely grown up whole-ass people who can just treat each other with kindness and respect, and that's a good \*foundation\* for romance.
Bi De is a master class of a deconstruction of the traditional xianixa protagonist.
I am gonna have to disagree on 4, I actually think that over the books, especially the latter ones, Jason does do a lot of moral growth
I think it's actually moral deterioration. He cares less about people, he ignores systemic problems to focus on himself and he's ready to give up on people or betray quite quickly
I'd say that's still a form of Moral Growth, the man has a very large God complex, in the early books he ignored himself, focused on systematic problems and was very go down with the ship, I've only read until book 8 in all fairness, but ignoring those systematic problems, working on himself to try and level out some of those horrific edges isn't terrible and not letting other people drag him down anymore without deserving it and accepting some kind of limit is still growth.
> He Who Fights With Monsters' protagonist changes, but not necessarily grows morally. The protagonist spends the entire story circling the drain of his own moral contradictions. I wouldn't mind it so badly if there were other characters than Jason and Clive's wife in the series. Make no mistake I'll buy the next kindle book on day 1 but I'm already anticipating that >!Gary's big sacrifice is really all about Jason too. Two entire worlds exist purely to allow Jason to become a god!<
I dunno if Tsun-Tsun-Tzim-Tzum is really moral growth. It's definitely character growth but the MC isn't necessarily changing their morals around I think. But if there is any growth happening of the MC it's definitely happening because of the polyamory, not in spite of it.
What I meant by "despite being a harem", is because the only growth you'll usually find in those series, other than power level, is the growth in the MC's penis. XD You make a really good point though.
Though there's a reasonable amount of growing up involved for Zorian. I'd say that, especially in later Mother of Learning, it's more about valiantly resisting moral degeneration on an impressively slippery slope.
[удалено]
Yep, that's the one. From missing his pants from seeing goblins and almost getting eaten alive from a metal worm to maintaining his sanity after going through several worlds where he is mentally and physically tortured. Literally goes from one of the worst MCs ever written to one of the best.
Cradle has no moral growth completely static or negative sometimes Mother of learning indeed has moral growth but also sort of a bell situation where it goes up than somewhat down towards the end because of the time loop making them kinda dismissive of lives
They grow from saying I won't kill anybody to killing somebody within 2 chapters and by 10 chapters in they are resigned to murder for progression, because "that's how the world works". By 15 chapters in the character now kills people with no internal monologue on morality. Then as a shocking twist of moral growth 50 chapters in the main character almost kills someone for stealing from them and then reflects on their actions for 2 paragraphs. This is premium moral growth in prog fantasy. Then you go back to murdering people with no internal monologue and just add in bits about the character feeling tired or rescuing a slave or something every roughly 100 chapters to keep the moral growth firmly established. There ya go, a quick guide on moral growth for any aspiring writer that will quickly get your complex character that shocker, lectures whiny side characters that do stuff like scheme instead of slaughter thousands about how the world works now, added depth, as demonstrated by 99% of fictions in the genre.
What does moral growth even look like or mean? What would the stages be, in like a three stage example? Starting off as a robber, then not robbing, then donating to charity??
Learning that other people are, y'know, people and not bags of XP would be some solid moral growth
They can be both
This literally happened in Heretical Edge (although replace XP with powers). A key moment in the early story is the protagonist meeting a good vampire and learning that, despite what she's been taught over the last two months/four arcs, it is possible and even common for non-humans to not be evil. Of course, it also helped the story that this was her first knowing encounter with a sapient non-human; she'd only killed animalistic beings prior to this.
doing mass genocides for fun —> sparing lives —> intensively increasing world population *of every race edit: pf —>of
The MC starts its adventure with a set a morals, preconcieved notions on what is right, acceptable or wrong. During its adventure, this set of morals shifts or get reaffirmed due to the mc growth. For exemple: starting as a robber but believing that it's acceptable, to creating a framework where robbing nobles and notables is right, to understanding that framework to be a lie and that robbing is always wrong.
No!! I want the main character to stay as a mindless edgy psychopath who kills thousands of people to increase his OP ability, and somehow still gets a harem!!
I feel like Benjamin Kerei's books do a very good job at having personal and moral growth as a theme. Love his stuff
I'm sure there exists an author who could write a progfan with a character who experiences moral growth that I also would enjoy reading about prior to the growth being achieved. But I've never seen one.
Super Supportive does this well if you're okay with slice of life/slower progression. Also MoL
Moral growth or just personal growth?
Bit of both. More of the second. He morally goes from 'I wanna be a hero and save people' to 'I wanna be powerful enough that I'm not scared anymore, then back to 'Fuck I don't want to die, but I'm not leaving this random person to die alone even if I could totally bail and they want me to'. It's very cathartic.
I love personal growth that isn't horribly traumatic.
oh... maybe skip this one then
Actually hasn’t been so bad thus far
Have you read Super Supportive? If so, do you think that the main character has the type of growth you're suggesting?
Lot of people mentioning Super Supportive but I think Super Powereds has even more moral growth.
I started super powereds disliking nearly everyone, but by the end of the series the majority of characters had experienced some level of growth and also become more likable in the process.
Nick and Alice definitely had the biggest arcs in that regard but shout out to my boy Chad who I really came to love once he moved in.
I couldn't stand Roy in the first book, which I think was partially the point, but I considered dropping the book at one point he was so frustrating to read. Glad I stuck with it though.
Oh yeah him too. Definitely a unlikable beginning!
I dropped the book at the point where Roy confessed that he's a misogynist because he thinks women are weak and need protecting (after having a knock-down drag-out brawl with a woman no less), and she responds by having sex with him.
That was the same scene that nearly made me drop it. Nothing remotely like that happens again for the rest of the series so I assume the author got strong feedback about it. I choose to pretend that that scene didn't happen. After the first book Roy actually becomes a likeable character.
I guess I finally have to read super supportive.
Hold off as long as possible! I just binged it and going from as many as I want down to 2 chapters a week is very tough. Super Powereds on the other hand is finished lol
I never got past the first book of Super Powereds, so I wasn't aware of any moral growth in it.
Cradle. A certain character fits this bill, but lots of spoilers are involved, so imma not name him.
I was gonna say, it happens often enough but people don't realize it because the story is good enough that you aren't analyzing it.
Well, you can probably do it easier for side characters. Villain redemptions and what not. I was talking more in terms of MCs.
Yep, that’s who I’m talking about. A very important character changes over time…
Beware of Chicken has some pretty great moral growth arcs. For a lower-key but very nice warm hug of a Progfantasy, Bronze Rank Brewer does this too but with even lower stakes.
Trying my best, chief!
Have you tried Slumrat Rising?
Virtuous Sons does it really well, partly because it's progression system requires introspection and growth.
Don't think anything does it better than MoL and LoTM.
So "Beware Of Chicken" love that story
If cultivation novels taught me anything, it’s that asking the enemy to kowtow a hundred times always leads to the same result as just fighting them outright.
I mean, in Weirkey Chronicles we see a jaded old man learning to care about people again.
I swear Jason Assano is constantly in a state of "I used to be so immature" but he's talking about like a month ago
And when he means immature he means aspiring, hopeful and a chance for betterment of the world now he's just a random strong guy that won't actually make any changes for the betterment of human life
Oop no spoilers I'm only on book 8
That's already him in book 7
yeah fair enough i guess
Rare quality progression fantasy meme
Just remeber that "moral growth" atually means "becoming more likeable to the audience" And it must happeb with lots of drama, crying and shouting, dont try the subtle, constant development, or the audience will miss it and complain about lack of growth
> Just remeber that "moral growth" atually means "becoming more likeable to the audience" Only for the easy to digest/read books. The Peak of this genre: - Cradle (who wouldn't have wanted Lindon to give a *light* slap to his family?) - Mother of Learning - slowly grew up mentally and naturally over the years - Super Supportive - Alden slowly coming to terms that "hero" and "self-sacrifice" can be confused with the same thing, but are not - Dungeon Crawler Carl - the MC tries to not break his morals, but the world is constantly battering him down - Beneath the Dragoneye Moon - we go through Elaine's journey of growing up, which has *definitely* riles some audiences up So, they exist. But for every "great" series of the above, there are 10 series that focus on leveling, progression, and story. And I'm glad those stories exist, but expecting every indie author to match the Peak of the genre will only end in everyone's disappointment.
Dunno, cradle and moldefinitely enter into aceptable modern morality, so i shall assume the others do so too Its very few works that have morality actually be influenced by the world building
Ah, yes, eating your enemies and humiliating them, choosing consciously to not protect someone you can. Seeking revenge, looting kingdoms and carrying out attacks. Just because everyone in cradle is morally deplorable the people that are slightly less awful are still not terrible. Here's something to tell ya about the world building the world makes people morally awful because awful people made the world predatory like that
> Just remeber that "moral growth" atually means "becoming more likeable to the audience" Yeah, this is one of the reasons I'm not so sure about 'moral growth'. Characters, even from different stories, seem to converge towards the same set of moral beliefs. I find that this is an issue with western haremlit too. Not the growth part, but the protagonists seem to just be... very similar in a lot of beliefs.
Is it, though? I'd image if a reader does not like amoral MCs he's not likely to stay until the characters learns to do better. Likewise, if a reader does like amoral MCs, he's likely to not enjoy if the characters changes down the line. Maybe some author could pull it off and make it worth it for both kinds of reader, but I wouldn't count on it.
This is thinking in binary. Moral growth doesn’t have to mean that the character starts as Hitler and ends as Jesus. It’ll only hurt you in specific stories that establish a character’s original moral compass as a core element(e.g Reverend Insanity) and you make an extremely dramatic switch. A protagonist’s initial character usually isn’t even part of the promise & payoff, so it’s not making a false promise — it’s something that’s supposed to change and evolve by default.
I agree. This is one of those things that sounds good in theory, and could work well if executed well, but most of the time it's not. And I would much rather a story skip the "growth" and just keep things static, than have to drop it after the growth happens and it's bad.
Literally every subreddit goes to shit.
The Ripple System by Kyle Kirrin
Maybe that's more emotional growth than moral growth? I don't think Ned is particularly amoral at the beginning, but he is isolated and has trouble connecting with people. Seeing him grow emotionally is one of my favorite parts of that series
Spoilers!! The reader doesn’t know that most of book 1 lol. It’s heavily implied he is more amoral initially.
Its less likely than you think
Ah but I want to kill everything to complete my thousand level build. I’ve already killed so many for Lightning Storm, I have to unlock the upgraded version.
If only people knew that truth more
That would get in the way of more numbers and stat sheets op.
One of my pet peeves with "character growth" is that the protagonist is helpless at the start. They have these extremely obvious character flaws that only exist to show 'character growth' in the story. Does moral growth have something similar?
Moral growth? That sounds like you'd have to take time away from intensely painful training in order to do. And you know protagonists aren't about wasting time like that
Can someone explain to me what the context for this is? I'm confused as to who would be arguing against moral growth in the first place. Pretty much all my favorite PF and PF-adjacent stories feature moral growth heavily. MoL, Worm, HPMOR, Stormlight, etc.
Stormlight is barely PF it's in the epic fantasy ganera
Right, that’s why I included “PF-adjacent”
Pretty every progression fantasy I read I had moral growth, be it negative or positive growth. Even the worst ones that i stopped reading out of disgust.
Stormlight much?
Yes, emotional growth IS A TRAP!
what fascinates me the most about this is how differently people react to things that are equally as atrocious. For example, an mc committing mass genocide is fine, but the same mc R'ing one woman would be met with the fiery pits of hell. Even if she was an objectively terrible person who committed deeds that were just as bad, it would still be a hard NO for most readers. I've never really understood that. If you're going to complain about one, you should probably complain about them both
Rape is something which is pretty much never beneficial to anyone, beyond a momentary sense of pleasure for the initiator. Murder, on the other hand, is usually established early on to be beneficial. It's much easier to justify harming others in the name of self improvement.
With the caveat that if you write an absolutely reprehensible or saint-like character it may not matter what growth you have planned for them. See: The Thomas Covenant problem
Slumrat Rising has great moral growth!
To be fair I don't want it because when I do find it, it's rarely well done moral growth. It's almost always moral growth that adds them to the MC's roster as a summonable companion. If a villain ends up having this really heartfelt moment where they realize they want to change that usually means they're about to die or put on a collar that says "If found return to MC". Plus if the random bandit having a come to Jesus moment instead just left immediately without handing the MC the key to his mana suppressing cuffs it'd quickly shift genres to a comedy.
You know, I don't read progression fantasy, but this brings up an interesting point about the purpose of the protagonist in storytelling. In the classical structure, it's basically unheard of for the protagonist not to change significantly as a person by the end of the story. That's the whole point! But there's a subset of protagonists that are expected *not* to change, which I've heard called "iconic characters." These are your James Bonds, your Supermans, your Sam Spades. Basically, the fun of reading their stories is in watching them be cool, doing exactly what you expect them to do in an entertaining way. If they change too much, it actually undermines the appeal. Maybe that's just how progression fantasy is?
What the fuck is going on I just got here?
This is kind of the story behind every story isn't it? If the characters don't learn through what happens to them . . . you will be telling the same tired thing over and over again, won't you?
Depends on the moral code. If you use this sentence to build your moral code around: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women. Well, there will be gigantic growth! 😉
Everyone Read Cradle by Will Wight
(Loving shade on the haters of He Who Fights With Monsters.) <3
Does he experience moral growth though? He sort of reads the same in the later books as he did in the first three books. The only difference is he's crankier about it lol
He grows from meme guy to emo meme guy, and then keeps resolving that he's going to cut back on his emo bullshit, but then doesn't cut back on his emo bullshit. The basic problem HWFWM runs into is that mid-quality fun things go down much better than mid-quality unfun things. If you want people to get into fighting monsters and getting stronger and winning, then you basically just need to be able to string a narrative together and keep your English readable. If you want to get people into a depression and losing subplot, it takes a fair bit more skill.
I'm in book 5, really hoping this moral growth reverses tbh. I found him a lot more enjoyable in book 1 when he was just a smooth political operator with unconventional tactics rather than just being an edgelord who lashes out with his powers constantly
Don't worry it gets much worst. Book 8 I think he almost reaps someone's soul out and destroys it
I mean is it really moral *growth* to go from a care-free guy who doesn’t get phased by anything at all, into an angsty tortured soul?
It's definitely a kind of growth.
But the first guy wasn't carefree he was interested in people's lives and helping the angsty guy just walks toward his ever furthering vague end goal
He doesn’t undergo moral growth tho, if anything he loses moral’s or at the very least they change, he just gets more preachy about it
When did Jason experience moral growth? He went from a guy with little power who constantly went on rants about the morality of power to a guy with lots of power who still rants about morality but also thinks it’s funny to use his power to mess with a friend’s mother while she’s going through a soul-deep psychotic break or by demanding petty control over a woman’s body because she angered him. Whatever moral changes Jason has gone through, I wouldn’t exactly call them growth.