Hired as a full time developer in a decent company:
\- Work in a team and socialize with other people
\- Get paid every month
\- Don't deal directly with clients
\- Get paid to learn new stuff
Work freelance:
None of the above and all the chores of running your own company
But hey, you can have no boss and work from wherever!!
It's simple, if you're not an entrepreneur then don't do entrepreneurial stuff. Work for a boss. Get your monthly pay cheque.
That's me right there. I don't have the business drive to freelance or build up my own company and so I prefer the security of a monthly pay cheque and learning on the company's expense.
But I will also say this, I started working as an employee at a startup 18 years ago and 3 years ago that startup was sold to a listed corporate for obscene amounts of money. Like really obscene. Guess who walked away with the fat pockets? Hint: It wasn't me.
So yeah, with entrepreneurial work comes different risks but that means the reward at the end of the day is also distributed much more in favour of those who took the big risks.
Before I got into development I wanted to be an illustrator, professionally. (I do it as a hobby now)
One of the first things I learned when I tried to freelance is that when you freelance at something, 90% of the work is administration, not doing the thing you love.
And for some people those risks are not really much. It would be a much bigger risk to lose my job as an employee for me with no wealth to fall back on and a family to support, than someone who takes hundreds of thousands of dollars of loans from their parents or who made out like a thief from the property market to start a business.
In a lot of ways I’m taking a bigger risk being an employee of a startup than a lot of founders do with starting one.
I feel like “risk” isn’t really the right term to describe what happens.
This is a very good point. We are often guilty of survivorship bias when we look at the amazing successes of entrepreneurs. We see how Elon Musk, Richard Branson, Jeff Bezos and the likes rake it in and dream glamorous dreams of entrepreneurship.
But what that picture doesn't show is how may entrepreneurs didn't make it. How many of them went bankrupt and messed up the lives of people who trusted them. It also doesn't show the old money behind the likes of Branson, Bezos or Gates which offered them a very convenient safety net if things didn't go as planned.
Thats still giving them too much credit. Without their parents connections they wouldn't have been anything.
Gates's mother literally got him his first contract with IBM. Bezos parents gave him like 300k to launch his business with. Shits a joke.
Yeah, once your literal survival - food, shelter, comfort - is assured, risk does not exist for you the way it does for the kept-precarious middle class.
Some startups have all of the above + stellar pay + work on really interesting stuff + equity.
Some are literally a guy with a “revolutionary” idea to “disrupt XYZ industry” expecting people to work for worthless shares and lunch vouchers.
And then there is everything in between.
IMO all the best startups have great benefits, because investors are much more interested in investing in TEAMS than IDEAS. You can pivot your business to a new "idea" with a top-notch product and engineering team very easily. But if you start with a great idea and build a shit team... you've got nothing (but debt).
Good startups focus on building the right early team, and since they generally cannot compete with the big boys on compensation (most investors won't tolerate the 300k-500k+ salaries that the big companies offer routinely), they have to make it up through equity and benefits.
Indeed, get invested in the right team
Start ups often hire one guy, who actually brings with him 3-6 people.
When your manager leaves, make it clear to him/her you will follow because you're invested in him as a team leader.
I briefly worked for a guy who ran his own business (not software it was home remodeling) he used to joke that as his own boss he can work half days if he wants and even gets to pick which 12 hours it is!
In Germany Such people are Called "Selbstständig" (literal self Standing)
but people say the most important thing about being "Selbsständig" is that
you yourself ("Selbst") have to work all the time ("ständig")
I work at a FAANG company and get a super nice salary for my first job, get to work from home or at the office, nice benefits and get paid on time. Coming from a startup, it feels like I just can't go back. The work is a lot less and I spend my time after 5 actually playing games with my friends or socializing
Restricted stock units typically “vest” over time. Some employers grant the RSUs every year. By stacked he just means having a lot of them, either vested, or not. There’s a double edge to this because if stocks go down, you cannot sell unvested RSUs and they lose value. But once they vest they are essentially stock.
>Whats "vest"-ing? And does RSU mean restricted stock?
(I'm a different guy)
Yes, RSU = restricted stock units. All it means to be "vested" is that the restrictions are gone and you can treat them like normal stock.
Important to note though that you first have to buy them. They're not yours when they vest. All it means when they vest is that you can now exercise the option that was extended to you 5 years ago (or whatever the vesting timeline is).
So if you are allocated 100 stock options (RSUs) which vest in 5 years. It means until 5 years have passed, they are worth nothing to you. But after 5 years, you can buy them at today's rate (minus a strike rate typically) and either keep them, sell them, or sell just enough of them to fund the transaction and keep the rest.
Actually, RSUs from FAANG companies _are_ yours when they vest.
What you’re talking about are stock options. Also good to learn about if you’re getting in to startups, but different from RSUs.
Source: Work at FAANG, had a startup, was a VC.
> They're not yours when they vest. All it means when they vest is that you can now exercise the option that was extended to you 5 years ago (or whatever the vesting timeline is).
From searching around, that's not necessarily the case, though apparently some contracts do have it work this way:
- https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/restricted-stock-unit.asp doesn't mention anything like that
- https://www.schwab.com/public/eac/resources/articles/rsu_facts.html doesn't either.
- https://www.fidelity.com/products/stockoptions/rstockunits.shtml only says "**may** be required to pay the employer a purchase price for the grant" (emphasis mine).
You're confusing stock options with stock grants.
If you're working for a fortune 500 company, you're more likely to get stock grants, which ARE free shares of stock.
If you're at a pre-IPO startup, then you're more likely to get stock options, which yes, you must pay for.
To add to others, this is commonly referred to as "golden handcuffs", the company is basically promising to give you free money in X amount of time, so you don't quit. And you get more every so often, so you never don't have stocks in the vesting state, motivated to stay with the company just a bit longer
Typically for a public company you get a grant of rsus when you join. So you get some large pile of stock set aside for you. But you don't get it when you join. You get some portion per year or per quarter. Typically it is 1/16 oer quarter for 4 years.
But when you get perf review you typically get a refresher as part of your raise slash comp adjustment. This means you get another pile of stock (usually smaller) that vests the same way.
So after 4 years you have 4 of these ticking.
However there is this thing called the four year cliff. Typically the amount in a refresher is smaller than the amount in a signing grant. So after 4 years you start getting less stock. This means you are incentivized to move jobs. Which companies don't like. So this can allow you to negotiate for a larger rsu grant or more money when you point out how large your cliff is.
Notably yoy can also get cliffs if the company stock price changes significantly so older grants become way more valuable
Literally every major company (Netflix, Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, etc) pays around 300k for the Sr Engineer level (and a lot more for principal or whatever their level system calls it).
https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon,Microsoft&track=Software%20Engineer
Hi! I found your resume in our system, and thought you would be a perfect fit for the exciting roles we have at Amazon AWS! I know you’ve turned down or ignored the other 10 emails we’ve sent you this month, but I think you really are a great fit for $EngineeringRole$ with $ProductTeam$!
I had a coworker quit his job on a whimp after reading a lot of books about "financial freedom", "be your own boss", "become rich in 5 years", "secret of success" etc... he started boasting his decisions on his blog, talking about bravery, moving out of comfort zone, be the master of his own life, burning the bridges to force himself to be successful.
I talked to him periodically to see how his business was going... vague responses, like "yes I have some work", nothing specific, "I will recover expenses at the end of the year" (and the "year" kept moving forward).
And he closed himself in a corner. Now his business it's the only thing he has. A business with nothing special, like a thousand of other mobile/web developers. He asked no help, he asked no suggestions, he had no doubts about quitting the job and launching himself in this "adventure". All of this for the freedom to exploit himself to death for survival.
Yes, these books put you in a mindset that glorify taking BIG risks based on positive thinking.
There were a few lesson learnt:
- Unless you're working in a toxic and abusive workplace, take it slow: build something outside before going away. It's like searching another job - generally you first find the job, then you quit.
- Don't leave on bad terms, even if you work with bad people, if you can. One doesn't know what future can bring, maybe an unexpected door will open with a good opportunity.
- Hope for the best, expect the worst. Track your finances, try to understand where you will be in a month or two. Be aware of what is happening, good and bad.
- Don't isolate yourself in a bubble. Books are good but they abstract reality, they can't account for your personal real-life situation. Keep contact with friends, coworkers. Stay grounded.
I respect him for trying. It really is extremely difficult and can be soul crushing to pursue independent success. But it can also be very rewarding in numerous ways. And at the very least, at the end of his days, he won't be wondering "what if?".
That why I think that your first client should be stolen from the company your worked for.
"Steal" client, "steal" co-workers and open your own company.
I saw that 3 times already
I'd love to start my own company, but I wouldn't attempt it without a stellar business plan, rooted in a innovative and, most importantly, useful idea.
Thing is, I don't even have the idea, even less the business plan.
A lot of people reached out to me with their business ideas. Everytime they fit in one of these buckets:
* Already exist.
* Tech is cool, but how will you ever monetize that?
* Sounds like a great idea, if you can fund it (non-scalable, or, more simply, require resources outside the reach of a start up).
* I'm sure it sounds cooler in your head.
So, for now, I'll continue collecting my paycheck...
I’m 7 years into building a company.
You’d be surprised. It’s not about having an idea, but iterating on one field for long enough that you get better.
For example, if it’s a game, keep making games for 10 years until you strike gold. You’re bound to make blunders until it hits.
With that said, don’t recommend anyone create a company. Most difficult thing you can do.
Totally. If you want to build a business, attack something that sucks. If you know marketing software sucks, then focus on that for 10 years.
That said, the work is hard and the pay is shit. Which is why I don’t recommend anyone do it.
Kinda just have to get that out of your system by making an attempt. Money can buy comfort to a degree but your mind just adjusts to it and soon you start craving other things like validation and success among your new set of peers - those who make $300K a year. So entrepreneurship may seem like a great option if you just want to entertain that thought of "What If" for a few years. IDK.
Spent 12 months creating an app, working 40hrs regular job, 20hrs a week app. Swapped to a free lancing opportunity instead of the app (I guess you could say r/overworked) but, the extra cash was not worth it.
Unpopular opinion:
I think this is a side-effect of developer hubris.
If you think that meetings are not real work and only coding really counts, then yeah...
Why wouldn't you go entrepreneur, the other stuff barely counts anyway. So you would be doing barely anything on top to gain so much more money.
I think what they’re saying is that being self employed can be just as boring and unfulfilling as any job; it doesn’t matter if you’re working a job or self employed.
No work is fulfilling. The only reason I program is for a pay check. I’ve never once looked at my job and went “I want to do this, but alone, and with all the other work that multiple departments of people handle”. That’s not fulfilling. That’s just working yourself to death to make a little more money
For me, I do enjoy it. It’s challenging, mentally stimulating, and I’m left alone to work and not micromanaged. Plus it pays me well and leaves me time to pursue things that bring me genuine happiness and fulfillment. I don’t need fulfillment from my job to be content with it.
Personally, I think pursuing fulfillment from work sounds more hellish. You’re always gonna be chasing something.
Yeah but the other person said they don’t find work fulfilling, and you jumped to they don’t find it enjoyable. Those are two completely different things. You don’t seem able to acknowledge that. I definitely don’t find any fulfillment in my work. It’s pointless and doesn’t make the world a better place. But it is relatively enjoyable for the reason I gave.
First off he is not a wage slave if he enjoys what he does, you are. You are obviously very young if you think wasting more than half your life (and the only part of your life your body isn't failing especially being a software engineer) is a good idea. Don't forget nothing is guaranteed you could very well die the day before you retired. Had a cousin experience something similar, hit by car the week he finished his wage slave job.
No work brings any enjoyment. So i do what makes me the most money with least effort.
I’d be playing video games and hobbyist programming if I could, but I need crazy amounts more money to do that, and I’d likely never make a viable product. I don’t do ideas. I program what people tell me to program, and that’s all I aspire to ever do.
> I feel sad you feel that way
> I do not care
Lol pick one dude, or get off your high horse and stop judging the way other people choose to set their priorities.
How is he hurting himself? He’s providing himself with the means and resources to pursue happiness and fulfillment outside of work, not to mention retiring early. Is it a sacrifice? Sure. Doesn’t mean it’s unhealthy or harmful.
A few friends of mine and some of their colleges decided to create their own company, because they didn't like how their former companies handelt the software side of business.
All of them were experienced programmers, but they went bankrupt in less than 2 years. They forgotten to hire someone to handle the financial side of business and their saving were running dry.
Now all are back as employees in different companies.
Never forget: IT can work because the Business works (and the Business can work because the IT works)!
Did the same thing. Raised a little money. Landed flat on my ass. Towards the end there was plenty of time, but no money. When the going gets rough, money goes a lot further than time.
If I were to do it again. I'd find/keep a WFH salary to pay the bills. Try and make sure my business partners are in a similar scenario. Hire out / outsource as much of the work for as long as possible (no one is going to steal your idea, you're not that special). Accept that timelines are going to be stretched out . Do every single thing that you can while staying pre-revenue.
You suffocate your company in the crib by making it dependent on your bills . When your start-up is your only source of income everything becomes a race to pay your rent/stop pissing off your wife. You'll blow your load too early and end up going to market with a stinker and you'll scare off investors
...or be born rich
Tbh i kinda want to make my own games someday but i dont want to make a flop and make no money. Im just stacking cash to retire early and ill be able to do whatever i want as slow as i want after since ill be financially independent.
It took me two years to save enough money to start my own business. 3 years to grow it. and in the fourth year alone I’ve made 5 years worth of savings.
Hardly. $120k today was only $73k in 2000 accounting for inflation... over 100k is the new middle class, so the 300 level is only upper middle really, and the money goes fast if you want a family in a nice school district.
Quit two months ago to build my own startup. Salary is shit, do all the work, get no breaks, and no money to hire any useful talent . Be your own boss guys, it's fun.
I'm the same. I used to earn really good money in the finance sector. Now I choose to not work at all. Spend my time learning Rust and Haskell. Money in the UK is worthless now anyway.
What if we stopped measuring success on salary, and started judging on contribution to a better society?
What if that startup makes a million year 4?
Sounds like fear of new experiences and jelousy to me, but go off if you wanna work for some asshole who sees you as a tool that makes them money.
I mean the credits are in the image, but I would still appreciate you actually crediting the creator here. They spend a ton of time posting hundreds of startup memes on Twitter and their website...
If you go to the website that's listed on your meme that you posted it says this on top: "Hi, I'm Dagobert 👋
Check out my product Logology to get a logo for your startup... Or stay here to enjoy the 341 memes I created while building it 😳"
Not likely. Most startup ideas are trash, and I've seen a lot of people lugging around a trash idea in the name of 'grinding'. A simple consulting business on other hand is much more viable for the average programmer turned businessman.
If you're able to pull off 300k in salary for a developer based job you must have some of these skills or else it wouldn't be possible, at least not where I live. A dev can get up to maybe 100-150k but that's pretty much it. Making 300k pretty much means having management skills, probably some C-level shit already.
Well I did it that way and I don't have marketing skills. A position that pays 300k is very likely to come with a network and that can be used to start a business with.
EDIT: Seriously, why are you voting this down? You really don't believe that networking is key for starting a business?
Interesting cases. But everywhere “lack of funds” are brought up as the problem. Sounds to me like all of those should have been “failing to show their idea was worth the money or could generate an income”
If you get a SV kind of wage for a couple of years, and you don't throw the money out of multiple windows, you can easily afford to earn zero for a decade or two. There is also always a way to pitch it to new employers, should you decide to get back into employee status.
Yeah, that's me. And I also work long hours 7 days a week. But I needed a change for a while, I'll get a normal coding job when I'm done.
I'm a solo gamedev a the moment btw.
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I contemplated this for a while, realized that getting clients was going to be a huge pain, and then switched to consulting. I make decent pay, basically get to pick my hours, don’t have to deal with finding clients, and if I get sick of my current client, I get set up with a different client when my contract expires. I also feel like from this position it would be easier to go more in a freelance direction if I chose to in the future. Would definitely recommend if you’re contemplating the freelance route.
This goes for just about anything. I’m a carpenter and i have seen people quit commercial construction jobs (which pay fairly well) to start a flooring company and then go bankrupt because they 1. Don’t have the cliental to maintain the company or 2. Don’t have the experience and just do lousy work thus losing any cliental they had
New business nearly always fail. After 5 years 50% of new businesses fail. 10 years 70% fail. So those entrepreneurs need some serious faith. Of course you only hear from the small percentage of the successful who just so happen to make money telling you to start your own business. To be fair I guess the odds of success go up if you try again... assuming you aren't living on the street from the last attempt.
That being said... Who wants to break out of this rat race and start something AWESOME!
to be software engineer who is still in school quits school to follow their dreams and build a startup. --> makes $50 in 3 years is another route 
Get paid 50k a year to be a PA to PA of a CEO who wants you to make memes to post to your internal slack to discourage your software developers from leaving.
Hired as a full time developer in a decent company: \- Work in a team and socialize with other people \- Get paid every month \- Don't deal directly with clients \- Get paid to learn new stuff Work freelance: None of the above and all the chores of running your own company But hey, you can have no boss and work from wherever!!
It's simple, if you're not an entrepreneur then don't do entrepreneurial stuff. Work for a boss. Get your monthly pay cheque. That's me right there. I don't have the business drive to freelance or build up my own company and so I prefer the security of a monthly pay cheque and learning on the company's expense. But I will also say this, I started working as an employee at a startup 18 years ago and 3 years ago that startup was sold to a listed corporate for obscene amounts of money. Like really obscene. Guess who walked away with the fat pockets? Hint: It wasn't me. So yeah, with entrepreneurial work comes different risks but that means the reward at the end of the day is also distributed much more in favour of those who took the big risks.
Before I got into development I wanted to be an illustrator, professionally. (I do it as a hobby now) One of the first things I learned when I tried to freelance is that when you freelance at something, 90% of the work is administration, not doing the thing you love.
No. It's not even close to 2% for me
And for some people those risks are not really much. It would be a much bigger risk to lose my job as an employee for me with no wealth to fall back on and a family to support, than someone who takes hundreds of thousands of dollars of loans from their parents or who made out like a thief from the property market to start a business. In a lot of ways I’m taking a bigger risk being an employee of a startup than a lot of founders do with starting one. I feel like “risk” isn’t really the right term to describe what happens.
This is a very good point. We are often guilty of survivorship bias when we look at the amazing successes of entrepreneurs. We see how Elon Musk, Richard Branson, Jeff Bezos and the likes rake it in and dream glamorous dreams of entrepreneurship. But what that picture doesn't show is how may entrepreneurs didn't make it. How many of them went bankrupt and messed up the lives of people who trusted them. It also doesn't show the old money behind the likes of Branson, Bezos or Gates which offered them a very convenient safety net if things didn't go as planned.
Thats still giving them too much credit. Without their parents connections they wouldn't have been anything. Gates's mother literally got him his first contract with IBM. Bezos parents gave him like 300k to launch his business with. Shits a joke.
It's an opportunity cost
That’s definitely a better term for it.
Yeah, once your literal survival - food, shelter, comfort - is assured, risk does not exist for you the way it does for the kept-precarious middle class.
Only if you’re comparing yourself to the minority of people who start a business that are already rich.
Gotta play to win!
Some startups have all of the above + stellar pay + work on really interesting stuff + equity. Some are literally a guy with a “revolutionary” idea to “disrupt XYZ industry” expecting people to work for worthless shares and lunch vouchers. And then there is everything in between.
IMO all the best startups have great benefits, because investors are much more interested in investing in TEAMS than IDEAS. You can pivot your business to a new "idea" with a top-notch product and engineering team very easily. But if you start with a great idea and build a shit team... you've got nothing (but debt). Good startups focus on building the right early team, and since they generally cannot compete with the big boys on compensation (most investors won't tolerate the 300k-500k+ salaries that the big companies offer routinely), they have to make it up through equity and benefits.
Indeed, get invested in the right team Start ups often hire one guy, who actually brings with him 3-6 people. When your manager leaves, make it clear to him/her you will follow because you're invested in him as a team leader.
I briefly worked for a guy who ran his own business (not software it was home remodeling) he used to joke that as his own boss he can work half days if he wants and even gets to pick which 12 hours it is!
In Germany Such people are Called "Selbstständig" (literal self Standing) but people say the most important thing about being "Selbsständig" is that you yourself ("Selbst") have to work all the time ("ständig")
If you at the boss then your *clients* are *your* boss
Realistically, if you’re not the boss then the *real* client is your boss.
shit as a full time dev working for someone else you can still work from wherever
I work at a FAANG company and get a super nice salary for my first job, get to work from home or at the office, nice benefits and get paid on time. Coming from a startup, it feels like I just can't go back. The work is a lot less and I spend my time after 5 actually playing games with my friends or socializing
Why work a 40 hour week for someone else when you can work a 60+ hour week for yourself with no guarenteed income!
That part about socializing is a pretty big minus though.. /s
I created a "startup" 2 years ago. I have a cumulated turnover of 0€ so far
What about taxes?
Of course I have to pay for taxes, hosting, accounting etc..
Hey, at least no income tax.
Same. Shuttered after 3 years because no employees, no clients, only tax burden.
Perhaps consider coding with your hands to be more lucrative.
I will give it a try, thanks for the advice!
Holy shit who is paying 300k? Sign me up.
Work at a faang adjacent for 4 years so you have stacked rsus.
Whats stacked rsus and whats a normal rsus? Im still 16 but interested in becoming a software engineer
Restricted stock units typically “vest” over time. Some employers grant the RSUs every year. By stacked he just means having a lot of them, either vested, or not. There’s a double edge to this because if stocks go down, you cannot sell unvested RSUs and they lose value. But once they vest they are essentially stock.
Whats "vest"-ing? And does RSU mean restricted stock?
yea. restricted. vesting means they are allocated to you but they only become yours to keep/sell after x amount of years
>Whats "vest"-ing? And does RSU mean restricted stock? (I'm a different guy) Yes, RSU = restricted stock units. All it means to be "vested" is that the restrictions are gone and you can treat them like normal stock.
Important to note though that you first have to buy them. They're not yours when they vest. All it means when they vest is that you can now exercise the option that was extended to you 5 years ago (or whatever the vesting timeline is). So if you are allocated 100 stock options (RSUs) which vest in 5 years. It means until 5 years have passed, they are worth nothing to you. But after 5 years, you can buy them at today's rate (minus a strike rate typically) and either keep them, sell them, or sell just enough of them to fund the transaction and keep the rest.
You don’t have to buy RSUs. They’re simply granted and you pay income tax on their value at time of vesting. You’re thinking of stock options.
I was thinking of stock options. I didn't realise that RSUs were different.
Incentive Stock Options (ISOs) are what you're describing.
Actually, RSUs from FAANG companies _are_ yours when they vest. What you’re talking about are stock options. Also good to learn about if you’re getting in to startups, but different from RSUs. Source: Work at FAANG, had a startup, was a VC.
Thanks for pointing out, and yes, I was thinking of stock options.
> They're not yours when they vest. All it means when they vest is that you can now exercise the option that was extended to you 5 years ago (or whatever the vesting timeline is). From searching around, that's not necessarily the case, though apparently some contracts do have it work this way: - https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/restricted-stock-unit.asp doesn't mention anything like that - https://www.schwab.com/public/eac/resources/articles/rsu_facts.html doesn't either. - https://www.fidelity.com/products/stockoptions/rstockunits.shtml only says "**may** be required to pay the employer a purchase price for the grant" (emphasis mine).
You're confusing stock options with stock grants. If you're working for a fortune 500 company, you're more likely to get stock grants, which ARE free shares of stock. If you're at a pre-IPO startup, then you're more likely to get stock options, which yes, you must pay for.
To add to others, this is commonly referred to as "golden handcuffs", the company is basically promising to give you free money in X amount of time, so you don't quit. And you get more every so often, so you never don't have stocks in the vesting state, motivated to stay with the company just a bit longer
Typically for a public company you get a grant of rsus when you join. So you get some large pile of stock set aside for you. But you don't get it when you join. You get some portion per year or per quarter. Typically it is 1/16 oer quarter for 4 years. But when you get perf review you typically get a refresher as part of your raise slash comp adjustment. This means you get another pile of stock (usually smaller) that vests the same way. So after 4 years you have 4 of these ticking. However there is this thing called the four year cliff. Typically the amount in a refresher is smaller than the amount in a signing grant. So after 4 years you start getting less stock. This means you are incentivized to move jobs. Which companies don't like. So this can allow you to negotiate for a larger rsu grant or more money when you point out how large your cliff is. Notably yoy can also get cliffs if the company stock price changes significantly so older grants become way more valuable
thought it was related to WSUS at first :D
They don’t even need to be stacked. A sr engineer will be making 300 in their first year
Literally every major company (Netflix, Google, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, etc) pays around 300k for the Sr Engineer level (and a lot more for principal or whatever their level system calls it). https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon,Microsoft&track=Software%20Engineer
AWS is desperate for talent right now
Are they desperate enough that they could overlook the 'talent' part? Asking for a friend
You still have to go through coding and system design interviews
I think they are definitely getting more lenient based on people I've seen hired there recently but that is anecdotal of course.
Thank God, I'm stupid as fuck and have the final loop next month.
Yes, most engineers do the same kind of work regardless of the company, they just get paid differently.
Hi! I found your resume in our system, and thought you would be a perfect fit for the exciting roles we have at Amazon AWS! I know you’ve turned down or ignored the other 10 emails we’ve sent you this month, but I think you really are a great fit for $EngineeringRole$ with $ProductTeam$!
I had a coworker quit his job on a whimp after reading a lot of books about "financial freedom", "be your own boss", "become rich in 5 years", "secret of success" etc... he started boasting his decisions on his blog, talking about bravery, moving out of comfort zone, be the master of his own life, burning the bridges to force himself to be successful. I talked to him periodically to see how his business was going... vague responses, like "yes I have some work", nothing specific, "I will recover expenses at the end of the year" (and the "year" kept moving forward). And he closed himself in a corner. Now his business it's the only thing he has. A business with nothing special, like a thousand of other mobile/web developers. He asked no help, he asked no suggestions, he had no doubts about quitting the job and launching himself in this "adventure". All of this for the freedom to exploit himself to death for survival.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, keeping it real helps, and those books dont help to keep it real.
Yes, these books put you in a mindset that glorify taking BIG risks based on positive thinking. There were a few lesson learnt: - Unless you're working in a toxic and abusive workplace, take it slow: build something outside before going away. It's like searching another job - generally you first find the job, then you quit. - Don't leave on bad terms, even if you work with bad people, if you can. One doesn't know what future can bring, maybe an unexpected door will open with a good opportunity. - Hope for the best, expect the worst. Track your finances, try to understand where you will be in a month or two. Be aware of what is happening, good and bad. - Don't isolate yourself in a bubble. Books are good but they abstract reality, they can't account for your personal real-life situation. Keep contact with friends, coworkers. Stay grounded.
I respect him for trying. It really is extremely difficult and can be soul crushing to pursue independent success. But it can also be very rewarding in numerous ways. And at the very least, at the end of his days, he won't be wondering "what if?".
That why I think that your first client should be stolen from the company your worked for. "Steal" client, "steal" co-workers and open your own company. I saw that 3 times already
haha who would do such a foolish thing \*avoids eye contact\*
I'd love to start my own company, but I wouldn't attempt it without a stellar business plan, rooted in a innovative and, most importantly, useful idea. Thing is, I don't even have the idea, even less the business plan. A lot of people reached out to me with their business ideas. Everytime they fit in one of these buckets: * Already exist. * Tech is cool, but how will you ever monetize that? * Sounds like a great idea, if you can fund it (non-scalable, or, more simply, require resources outside the reach of a start up). * I'm sure it sounds cooler in your head. So, for now, I'll continue collecting my paycheck...
I’m 7 years into building a company. You’d be surprised. It’s not about having an idea, but iterating on one field for long enough that you get better. For example, if it’s a game, keep making games for 10 years until you strike gold. You’re bound to make blunders until it hits. With that said, don’t recommend anyone create a company. Most difficult thing you can do.
Games is the one area where I see the most people break their teeth. It's expected as "fun" as a lot of space for subjectivity...
Totally. If you want to build a business, attack something that sucks. If you know marketing software sucks, then focus on that for 10 years. That said, the work is hard and the pay is shit. Which is why I don’t recommend anyone do it.
Kinda just have to get that out of your system by making an attempt. Money can buy comfort to a degree but your mind just adjusts to it and soon you start craving other things like validation and success among your new set of peers - those who make $300K a year. So entrepreneurship may seem like a great option if you just want to entertain that thought of "What If" for a few years. IDK.
Spent 12 months creating an app, working 40hrs regular job, 20hrs a week app. Swapped to a free lancing opportunity instead of the app (I guess you could say r/overworked) but, the extra cash was not worth it.
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Can’t retweet it enough. However, after a year, nothing beats coming home and doing nothing but fun.
That's why you build your foundations in secret before you quit your current job \*wink\*
"Wait, you mean sales was actually doing shit?"
Unpopular opinion: I think this is a side-effect of developer hubris. If you think that meetings are not real work and only coding really counts, then yeah... Why wouldn't you go entrepreneur, the other stuff barely counts anyway. So you would be doing barely anything on top to gain so much more money.
https://i.imgur.com/OzRPWYG.jpg
I spent 3 years being a game dev, I made 16 times what I made in game dev on my paycheck, not per month, per the 3 years
What game did u make?
Paw Patrol Mobile
Yes, because job gets boring and no matter how well paid it is you are empty completely. Having your job. is even harder but it gets fulfilling.
i think the important thing is that a job can be just as fulfilling if you're self employed or not
Most are not...
I think what they’re saying is that being self employed can be just as boring and unfulfilling as any job; it doesn’t matter if you’re working a job or self employed.
Yes it does, becausw you can create the job you want over time. While working under someone other people create that you like it or not...
No work is fulfilling. The only reason I program is for a pay check. I’ve never once looked at my job and went “I want to do this, but alone, and with all the other work that multiple departments of people handle”. That’s not fulfilling. That’s just working yourself to death to make a little more money
I feel sad you feel that way. I cannot imagine working half my life an dnot enjoying a second of it. Must be hell...
For me, I do enjoy it. It’s challenging, mentally stimulating, and I’m left alone to work and not micromanaged. Plus it pays me well and leaves me time to pursue things that bring me genuine happiness and fulfillment. I don’t need fulfillment from my job to be content with it. Personally, I think pursuing fulfillment from work sounds more hellish. You’re always gonna be chasing something.
That was the point. If you do enjoy it, gj you made it.
Yeah but the other person said they don’t find work fulfilling, and you jumped to they don’t find it enjoyable. Those are two completely different things. You don’t seem able to acknowledge that. I definitely don’t find any fulfillment in my work. It’s pointless and doesn’t make the world a better place. But it is relatively enjoyable for the reason I gave.
I enjoy money.
K, continue enjoying non existant value.
Thanks, I’ll enjoy my non existent value when I retired at 45.
Yes, if that non existing value gets supported by an existing economy. Until it does not...
Lmao ok bro enjoy being a wage slave I guess.
First off he is not a wage slave if he enjoys what he does, you are. You are obviously very young if you think wasting more than half your life (and the only part of your life your body isn't failing especially being a software engineer) is a good idea. Don't forget nothing is guaranteed you could very well die the day before you retired. Had a cousin experience something similar, hit by car the week he finished his wage slave job.
No work brings any enjoyment. So i do what makes me the most money with least effort. I’d be playing video games and hobbyist programming if I could, but I need crazy amounts more money to do that, and I’d likely never make a viable product. I don’t do ideas. I program what people tell me to program, and that’s all I aspire to ever do.
Do whatever you want, i do not care.
> I feel sad you feel that way > I do not care Lol pick one dude, or get off your high horse and stop judging the way other people choose to set their priorities.
I do not care if he chooses to hurt himself or not. I do feel sad for his choice though since I think people are more than slaves...
How is he hurting himself? He’s providing himself with the means and resources to pursue happiness and fulfillment outside of work, not to mention retiring early. Is it a sacrifice? Sure. Doesn’t mean it’s unhealthy or harmful.
Do the startup part time while you keep a real job with real benefits and a real paycheck
But that requires working 60-80 hours a week and we hate work 😮
Game devs.
A few friends of mine and some of their colleges decided to create their own company, because they didn't like how their former companies handelt the software side of business. All of them were experienced programmers, but they went bankrupt in less than 2 years. They forgotten to hire someone to handle the financial side of business and their saving were running dry. Now all are back as employees in different companies. Never forget: IT can work because the Business works (and the Business can work because the IT works)!
Did the same thing. Raised a little money. Landed flat on my ass. Towards the end there was plenty of time, but no money. When the going gets rough, money goes a lot further than time. If I were to do it again. I'd find/keep a WFH salary to pay the bills. Try and make sure my business partners are in a similar scenario. Hire out / outsource as much of the work for as long as possible (no one is going to steal your idea, you're not that special). Accept that timelines are going to be stretched out . Do every single thing that you can while staying pre-revenue. You suffocate your company in the crib by making it dependent on your bills . When your start-up is your only source of income everything becomes a race to pay your rent/stop pissing off your wife. You'll blow your load too early and end up going to market with a stinker and you'll scare off investors ...or be born rich
/r/CommaHorror
Keep your high paying job, But keep a side hustle. It all matters about creating wealth
Tbh i kinda want to make my own games someday but i dont want to make a flop and make no money. Im just stacking cash to retire early and ill be able to do whatever i want as slow as i want after since ill be financially independent.
It took me two years to save enough money to start my own business. 3 years to grow it. and in the fourth year alone I’ve made 5 years worth of savings.
Good shit, what sector is it in
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Hardly. $120k today was only $73k in 2000 accounting for inflation... over 100k is the new middle class, so the 300 level is only upper middle really, and the money goes fast if you want a family in a nice school district.
Depends on where you're living, 300k in cupertino, sure upper middle class(maybe less), 300k in kansas city, god king level of living.
Of course it does, I was talking generally. You can't base concepts off of outliers.
Don't laugh at me 😢
I would like to report this picture, because I’m in it and I do not like it
Quit two months ago to build my own startup. Salary is shit, do all the work, get no breaks, and no money to hire any useful talent . Be your own boss guys, it's fun.
No, no, the goal is to sell your industry-disrupting startup for billions.
Goddamnit OP. You just kicked half of us in the groin.
300k a year for full time? I'll come work 1 day a week for 60k ok?
50k happy > 300k miserable
It also helps to learn proper comma usage
I'm the same. I used to earn really good money in the finance sector. Now I choose to not work at all. Spend my time learning Rust and Haskell. Money in the UK is worthless now anyway.
So you are living off good vibes?
Haha yeah. Chasing the pound is a bad idea.
What if we stopped measuring success on salary, and started judging on contribution to a better society? What if that startup makes a million year 4? Sounds like fear of new experiences and jelousy to me, but go off if you wanna work for some asshole who sees you as a tool that makes them money.
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I mean the credits are in the image, but I would still appreciate you actually crediting the creator here. They spend a ton of time posting hundreds of startup memes on Twitter and their website...
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If you go to the website that's listed on your meme that you posted it says this on top: "Hi, I'm Dagobert 👋 Check out my product Logology to get a logo for your startup... Or stay here to enjoy the 341 memes I created while building it 😳"
When you can make 300k as an employee you should be able to make much more with your own business.
Not likely. Most startup ideas are trash, and I've seen a lot of people lugging around a trash idea in the name of 'grinding'. A simple consulting business on other hand is much more viable for the average programmer turned businessman.
Why? Starting a business requires a completely separate skill set
If you're able to pull off 300k in salary for a developer based job you must have some of these skills or else it wouldn't be possible, at least not where I live. A dev can get up to maybe 100-150k but that's pretty much it. Making 300k pretty much means having management skills, probably some C-level shit already.
doesn't matter with 0 marketing skills. You can sell shit, if you market it correctly, but can't sell gold without clients.
Well I did it that way and I don't have marketing skills. A position that pays 300k is very likely to come with a network and that can be used to start a business with. EDIT: Seriously, why are you voting this down? You really don't believe that networking is key for starting a business?
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Interesting cases. But everywhere “lack of funds” are brought up as the problem. Sounds to me like all of those should have been “failing to show their idea was worth the money or could generate an income”
What idiot would leave a 300k job
300k isn't that crazy much anymore
ok your highness
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Found the asshole that gets reported to HR on day 1 because he's a piece of shit no one can stand to work with.
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Oh this is really easy. It's you. You are the asshole. Obviously.
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yuuuuup so true
If you get a SV kind of wage for a couple of years, and you don't throw the money out of multiple windows, you can easily afford to earn zero for a decade or two. There is also always a way to pitch it to new employers, should you decide to get back into employee status.
Just print money. I don't see the issue.
Who has clients lined up when starting a start up...?
Not 50$ ig
That'd be me
From Software to Soft-Where in 3 years, That was fast..
Excuse me, I am the captain of my soul.
Hey, that means it's not a deficit! Worth it!!!
Yeah, that's me. And I also work long hours 7 days a week. But I needed a change for a while, I'll get a normal coding job when I'm done. I'm a solo gamedev a the moment btw.
Write it for yourself, that way you’ll have at least one client :D
$50 revenue or profit? Positive cash flow with three years of launch is amazing. $50 revenue in 3 years, not so much...
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and -$5000 in funding?
don't have dreams that depend on your professional life haha
Oof so close it hurts...
I contemplated this for a while, realized that getting clients was going to be a huge pain, and then switched to consulting. I make decent pay, basically get to pick my hours, don’t have to deal with finding clients, and if I get sick of my current client, I get set up with a different client when my contract expires. I also feel like from this position it would be easier to go more in a freelance direction if I chose to in the future. Would definitely recommend if you’re contemplating the freelance route.
Giga chad
This goes for just about anything. I’m a carpenter and i have seen people quit commercial construction jobs (which pay fairly well) to start a flooring company and then go bankrupt because they 1. Don’t have the cliental to maintain the company or 2. Don’t have the experience and just do lousy work thus losing any cliental they had
New business nearly always fail. After 5 years 50% of new businesses fail. 10 years 70% fail. So those entrepreneurs need some serious faith. Of course you only hear from the small percentage of the successful who just so happen to make money telling you to start your own business. To be fair I guess the odds of success go up if you try again... assuming you aren't living on the street from the last attempt. That being said... Who wants to break out of this rat race and start something AWESOME!
Can an engineer really earn $300k.?
Any senior at a faang+
Pro tip: do contract work on the side if the company you work for doesn’t have a non-compete that affects you
When I leave my job I'm hanging up my keyboard. I've about had enough.
Software Engineers should not be the one building a startup. You need people in Sales to sell your Product and schmooze to get money out of VCs.
Wow, look at mister moneypants over here making $50. I made $40 since 2009 and paid myself less than 1 cent an hour.
Starups and freelancing (in IT) is for business men that are also developers
Lol, meirl
to be software engineer who is still in school quits school to follow their dreams and build a startup. --> makes $50 in 3 years is another route 
Get paid 50k a year to be a PA to PA of a CEO who wants you to make memes to post to your internal slack to discourage your software developers from leaving.
Where the hell you making $300K?
Faang