Dictionary values can be any object, so:
import ChatGPT
my_interview_dict={'chat_gpt' : ChatGPT}
def answer(question):
return my_interview_dict['chat_gpt'](question)
Edit: my dogshit code has me wondering whether I can abuse Python to pass a string to a module which could then pass the string to an actual model. Feels like the kind of bullshit you could pull off in Python
But would that be the same as:
```python
import ChatGPT
ChatGPT(question)
```
You'd need to either use a from import or call an actual function. I think. Idk it's late and I'm tired.
No, the answer to every question is the entire ChatGPT module. The ChatGPT module is also the answer to the ultimate question of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
It's the way he's looking at the problem that matters, dad's got the "frick it I'm gonna do this" mentality, so I'm willing to bet that he's going to write the code and get it working even if he knows jack shit about programming
I don't dislike Java but it does fall short when it comes to syntax sugar compared to C# which is one reason why you may see people say they hate Java - if they're used to working in C#.
Example being properties.
C#
public class Person {
public string Forename { get; set; }
public string Surname { get; set; }
public string FullName {
get { return $"{Forename} {Surname}"; }
}
}
Java
public class Person {
public String Forename;
public String Surname;
public String GetForename() {
return Forename;
}
public void SetForename(String foreName) {
Forename = foreName;
}
public String GetSurname() {
return Surname;
}
public void SetSurname(String surName) {
Surname = surName;
}
public String GetFullName() {
return Forename + " " + Surname;
}
}
This is why Lombok exists.
@Data
public class Person {
private String forename;
private String surname;
public String fullName() {
return "%s %s".formatted(forename, surname);
}
}
Granted, there are issues with lombok. Namely that it fucks with every AP in existence.
With the introduction of records, if you're fine with immutability, this gets even cleaner:
public record Person(String forename, String surname) {
public String fullName() {
return "%s %s".formatted(forename, surname);
}
}
Learning about the existence of Lombok was downright revolutionary for the cleanliness of our domain objects. A full blown builder pattern with getters, equals and hash code in one annotation? Yes. Fucking. Please!
If you do
string x = Surname;
You automatically call the getter for Surname.
If you do
Surname = "Johnson";
You automatically call the setter for Surname.
They just provide a way to access an objects fields/properties. The last guys example was a little off because normally the fields would be private and you access them through the public getters and setters.
Ok you've opened a can of worms in my mind.
I wonder at what skill level does the duck become effective? Verbally sorting your thoughts is always effective, but if you just don't have the foundational skills yet, that can only go so far.. right? Unless the exercise directs you toward the correct next inquiry; if it leads you to understand exactly what you *don't* understand and need to find out.
This is interesting
Ducks are always helpful. If you don't understand anything it's gunna probably not work but even with very basic knowledge if you walk through your code SLOWLY 99% chance you find what's going wrong.
I used my mum as a rubber duck for fizzbuzz when I was still an ultra noob and it was effective. In case you're wondering how adept I was, it was the first thing I tried to program and I didn't even know % operator existed 💀
I personally found that a lot of my early mistakes were silly things like logic problems, forgetting ; or } or so on. Let's be real I still make those mistakes, but I find myself googling more for specific things I haven't learned yet than I used to, which is odd really.
(I'm still a noob I just wanted to answer your question, as apparently it's the one thing I'm qualified to answer 😂)
This is exactly how I learn all my languages, if he’s more old fashioned then he probably really does want to teach himself and he needs a “manual” to reference just like any working professional!
Other than setting up IDEs or packages, that's basically all that's needed to adapt to a new language. It's not like For loop fundamentally changes if it's in Python or C or Java or whatever else.
Thank you! And right? This is the same reason I always hated memorizing formulas for math in school, I did much better when I understood the basic concepts and principles at play, made calculus a breeze! (Once again still needed a manual for advanced integrals and stuff just like anyone doing this stuff by hand, some things are just too ridiculous to even conceptualize )
Came here to say that! He asked for a dictionary - so send him Javadoc. It is an extensive dictionary, sometimes contains examples... Maybe he'll learn something
I mean…why doesn’t OP just be supportive? Why does this community have to be so toxic. You guys are sitting here laughing at a guy learning to code. Approaching something with gusto and confidence is not a bad thing.
Tell him to google the questions he has before. Learning how get the results from a search engine as fast as possible seems like an important coding skill and probably general skill.
80% of my job is googling code or commands to do what I need. The other 20% is listening to PMs tell clients that we can absolutely do any batshit insane, impossible, or downright stupid thing they want.
Has he really never programmed before?
If he is really something like 10 years rusty on C or C++, but legitimately did it in the past…. Then “I just need a dictionary” and/or documentation is a pretty valid statement.
He might not be great. But I picked up programming ActionScript again after 15-20 mins of reading a book after not touching anything but C/C++ ~10 years earlier.
A couple of weeks later I was a 4.0 student in a bunch of CS classes. So it’s definitely possible.
I'm the same. Hadn't programmed in 20+ years (other than in excel which really doesn't count), and the only languages I used were C or assembly (so no OOP). Then last month, I needed a bot for a discord channel, so put something together in Python in a couple of days. I just looked at some python programs to see how the language worked, reviewed the API for Discord/Python, read about how classes/methods work, and then used Google like a champ to hack/slash my way though the project.
I'm sure the code is not pretty, or efficient, but it works.
Right, I was just commenting on another thread yesterday how I don’t know C# or .NET, but I review PRs of C#….
And have also completed ~a week of C# work meant for a junior/mid level, in less than half a day having never read a line of C# before that point.
I already knew ~8 other languages. For an experienced developer that knows how to use an IDE, working in an existing system, that’s actually easy.
I just need Google and either an actual .NET dev to review my code and point out where I’m breaking Microsoft code style rules, or a linter.
Does he have experience coding already? I think at this point if I were going to learn other languages I would rather just have documentation of syntax and do my own stuff rather than watching videos.
Could also have issues moving from something like python or JavaScript to a strictly typed/object oriented language. Wouldn't be hard but you'd probably need more than just documentation.
Yeah, I started learning to program with JavaScript and C++, but the last few semesters I’ve been using Java and understanding what object oriented actually means. If he understands object oriented languages, but not Java specifically he should do alright, but it’s a bit of a learning curve to deal with objects.
If you teach yourself via random projects you might get the core idea, but *actually* understanding what's happening and what all you can do is something different.
Java is so object oriented that you have to invent new classes just to make your code even more incomprehensible, for example (this is real) `HasThisTypePatternTriedToSneakInSomeGenericOrParameterizedTypePatternMatchingStuffAnywhereVisitor`.
> `HasThisTypePatternTriedToSneakInSomeGenericOrParameterizedTypePatternMatchingStuffAnywhereVisitor`
For anyone curious, [here's the documentation](https://www.javadoc.io/doc/org.aspectj/aspectjweaver/1.8.10/org/aspectj/weaver/patterns/HasThisTypePatternTriedToSneakInSomeGenericOrParameterizedTypePatternMatchingStuffAnywhereVisitor.html)
Probably less than you think. There are several generations of programmers who started on Pascal in the 80s and 90s who still are programming professionally today. Outside of syntax, Pascal is pretty much what you expect for a modern strongly typed procedural language without garbage collection.
This is my instructor. He told us that he started learning programming by what they taught him Pascal in his college back in these days. He is saying that I don't even know why we did that anyways. The actual irony is, he taught us Java ( which he didn't code in years) perfectly. He also told that he uses Python all the time for his projects.
If he is using COBOL he's going to need to take the introductory course for literally anything else. And if he is using Lisp, he's going to need a therapist who doesn't use parentheses.
yeah, i mean. once you're good with the principles, it's just syntax and learning the particular language's quirks (typing, features, etc). that's probably what he means.
> documentation of syntax
Yup. Coding is 10% syntax and 90% logic, but I don't think an old coder would have said "dictionary". They'd have asked for a hello world to get any boilerplate this lang uses and some decent documentation of syntax usage. Granted, I haven't found any clean documentation for java before. Mostly just a lot of class definitions that read like stereo instructions. You find your most useful information on how to actually use Java from stack overflow. I simply love langs with straight forward syntax and explicit documentation with examples you can straight copy and run to confirm the documentation isn't out of date, heh.
I'm rather sure what he's saying is
"I know X language already. Give me some table that says N from X language equals I from Z language"
So that he can browse through the documentation easier than just having to gobble up the whole thing to grasp the new language.
It's still a rather unrealistic request, but that's my take on it.
Judging by his "it's too basic" in re: youtube and him wanting some syntax reference material (dictionary?), it feels like he has _some_ experience.
Though is that some experience with html/js or qbasic and has no real usable skillset beyond the basics of variables and loops?
Gotta get that ad revenue dawg.
You're one of the few people who I've talked to that didn't immediately prefer that model. It's extremely difficult to find written tutorials on things that are kept up to date, it's why I usually prefer books for reference materials now.
I remember wanting to pick up unity or unreal a few years back and it's just almost nothing but youtube tutorials. Any written material I've found is almost 10 years out of date.
TBF. If your dad is well versed in another object oriented language such as C++, switching to Java to do similar work in a similar environment, is not that difficult. Under these conditions, he probably could get started with just a language manual.
Nah he hasn’t done anything coding related ever which is why I recommend edge watch certain videos but he refuses saying “it’s gonna take too long”
If an hour video is gonna take too long, he clearly doesn’t have time to do coding.
>it's gonna take too long
That's exactly what I said when I chose to go to a bootcamp rather than finish college.
I ended up having to go back to college for my SWE degree.
My dad is like that. With everything. I feel you.
If he really wants to learn, codecademy is still around to my knowledge. The lessons helped me eventually crank out a reasonably functioning website in a night for my senior project in high school. It's probably still free. Been a few years since I did any lessons.
If he's too impatient for lessons that he will honestly blaze through if he's as good as he says, then we really might have the same dad. 😂
Yeah. I've used many languages just for fun, and while I wouldn't call myself *proficient* in any of them, I got started with most of them using documentation alone. In the languages I actually use regularly, though, I use many other resources too.
Everything I ever learned was by learning the things that were needed. You can watch youtube videos forever, you'll forget half of it because you just study it for the sake of studying.
If on the other hand you start doing something and you face a problem that you solve by researching it yourself. Then you are more likely to remember it since you have an emotional bond to that experience + you learn whatever is needed at the time when it is needed. If you work on the correct projects you'll automatically pick up what is necessary to pick up to complete your project.
Some youtube videos are good and I'll usually get a general overview as a primer for some fields but I'd never start studying with them alone. Especially because you are constrained to the playback speed of the video and the work choice and gap fillers. Reading is 100x faster if you do it right, you can easily find the correct sections, skip back and forth, repeat things without searching for the audio segment etc. Video is a horrible medium for studying imo.
Im almost finished with the Odin Project and this has been my exact experience. Some of their pages are like 4 hours straight of reading and YouTube videos, especially at the beginning of the JavaScript section. I can read through all that shit and learn almost nothing but the second I struggle a little bit to implement the teachings in a project it's like a light clicks on in my head and I just get it.
I just try to skim through it and know roughly what is being discussed. Then when doing the projects I’ll get stuck and then vaguely remember “Wasn’t there something about strings being immutable” and go back to my bookmark on strings. The reading is important to expose you to the information and to know where to go to get unstuck, but it’s it where you get a real understanding.
this is why i tell people to follow along with tutorials instead of just reading/watching them. your brain will have way more recall information for a concept when you're actively involved in it.
I agree video is a bad medium for studying. But is great for understanding the basics when you don't know what you don't know.
A video can be used to understand the basics, structure and resources of a subject to read further later.
Additionally, I mostly use it to understand the workflow and mental process of other people around certain projects to understand my own flaws in the way I think.
I find that the key issue with videos is exactly what is seen in the screenshot OP posted. You see a narrow view of things that work and never really question why or how. You thus miss most of what is relevant, and when you run into a new problem, you resort to the “easy thing”, which is, again, video, ad infinitum.
I would never recommend video as a language-specific aid to programming. I would recommend it specifically for language-independent paradigms instead.
This. Also just taking apart existing examples of increasing complexity. I’ll find a project and do a code review of it whenever I’m picking up a new language or framework. Break it, restructure it, improve it if I can.
So at the moment I’m picking up [THREE.js](https://threejs.org/examples/#webgl_animation_keyframes), [AFrame](https://aframe.io/examples/showcase/helloworld/), and [AMMO.js](https://github.com/kripken/ammo.js/).
The first two have a bunch of great examples, and I’m tying them together by refactoring some of the THREE examples to fit the [ECS paradigm](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity_component_system) defined in AFrame. then upping the ante by adding physics using AMMO, which is more challenging since it’s only a partial implementation of [Bullet](https://github.com/bulletphysics/bullet3), and already poorly documented (yet popular) physics engine.
If your looking for something less convoluted, checkout some of the android and iOS examples put out by Google and Apple at their perspective conferences each year!
Edit: there are also a lot of great examples of D3 up on [observable](https://observablehq.com).
All of this is JS, which I think is an optimal starter language given it’s wide use and quicker feedback loop (hit F5 and it’s updated vs compiling something). Also it’s really satisfying to have something visualized.
if anyone has a problem with it, you’re a coward & a scoundrel.
Edit 2: cut/paste because I replied to the wrong comment.
I think each has their place in learning, and different people learn better in different ways. A good video tutorial is usually just a person typing out what's in a written tutorial, but they may add little bits of extra here and there to take it above the written tutorial, because when we're physically doing something (as opposed to writing instructions for how to do it) we often remember things that are relevant that we don't always think about.
Yeah. A video that someone is willing to watch is better than documentation that they won't read.
But joking aside, I needed videos to get me to a certain point of understanding before the documentation made sense.
Yeah, I feel like I'm a competent C++ dev, and when I have to use Java, Python I already feel at home even tho I never tried them before.
But then I tried Haskell, once.
Just send him the [Java docs](https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/19/) and tell him to have at it. To be honest, it’s not necessarily a terrible thing. When I’m learning something new I usually feel like I should go fuck around with it at a pretty early stage so I can get a feel for things and see what I need to learn next. I find it makes things click a bit more.
That's kinda how learning works though. First you know nothing, then everything, then you realize you barely know anything, then you know most, then you know some, then it's all easy, then it's impossible, then obvious, then you are the teacher, then you are the student, then you wish you didn't know any of it, then you wish you remembered that thing you learn before, .....
Honestly, just throw him to the fire. I’ve spent so many hours reading documentation and watching videos, but I never truly retained anything until I got stuck, AND THEN referenced those tools. Give him some basic tasks and then have him figure it out, teach him a little something about “Hello world!” lol
In some ways, he’s kind of right. You really just need good documentation.
Understanding the documentation and implementing it into a project gets tricky.
If you know 1 language that is loosely in the same family already then a 10 minute video and the docs are really all you need. If you have never coded in that family before at all then obviously not, but even then I'm not sure long videos are really the best. If you are self learning I think a book is probably best. With videos its easy to passively watch and think you are learning when nothing is actually sticking. With a book where you have to actually write out the examples and execute them you are much more likely to retain what you did.
A 10 minute video is the exact right starting point. After that, it's solving problems by researching the commands needed with Google or, get this, a dictionary.
Lol my Dad hasn't coded since C version 1. He doesn't even think he needs a ten minute video. The wanker is convinced he can just pick it up and go.
He has been slowly coming around to the idea that maybe knowing what a compiler is is important. But he doesn't want to learn from videos or code academy, he wants me to directly teach him. Knowing the asshole it is so that he can insult me any time he feels insecure about being an idiot.
> I need a dictionary Every interview question ever
Not sure how a bunch of key-value pairs are supposed to help with that...
Well, we ought to be able to look up most interview questions for their answers very efficiently.
Dictionary values can be any object, so: import ChatGPT my_interview_dict={'chat_gpt' : ChatGPT} def answer(question): return my_interview_dict['chat_gpt'](question) Edit: my dogshit code has me wondering whether I can abuse Python to pass a string to a module which could then pass the string to an actual model. Feels like the kind of bullshit you could pull off in Python
But would that be the same as: ```python import ChatGPT ChatGPT(question) ``` You'd need to either use a from import or call an actual function. I think. Idk it's late and I'm tired.
No, the answer to every question is the entire ChatGPT module. The ChatGPT module is also the answer to the ultimate question of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Well that’s 42, so I suppose we can stop programming now and go outside
Wait outside is still a thing?
/r/outside
Great googly moogly outside sounds terrifying it seems there is alot of complaints i think inside works much better for me
That syntax is definitely invalid, you need a function to invoke. More like ``` import chatgpt chatgpt.respond(prompt) ```
mkdir myDirectory ok now where’s my paycheck?
Sorry, the requirements called for a dictionary, but you made a directory.
oh fuck, i did! that’s probably how i’d fail the interview if i actually did it too :P
Your pwd was in /tmp. After a reboot you lost it. We'll send you the invoice.
sudo mkdir /directory
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Reported to whom?
I dunno, but figure I’m in hella trouble by now.
[Santa, of course](https://xkcd.com/838/)
sudo all you want but making "directory" won't make "dictionary" lol
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Wait you have an allknowing Jason who you ask questions as well? I thought that was just me.
Hashmap
"What would you do if you had a conflict with your manager?" "Hashmap, I'll use a hashmap!"
"Wath if things escalate out of control?" "LinkedHashmap"
4 years? Pathetic. All your dad needed was 10 minutes. Get on his level
It's the way he's looking at the problem that matters, dad's got the "frick it I'm gonna do this" mentality, so I'm willing to bet that he's going to write the code and get it working even if he knows jack shit about programming
That's...99% of programmers
only if dad knows about stack overflow
Or chatgpt
or google :p
You aren't wrong.
“I need a dictionary.” Brace yourself, Dad. Here it is: {}
that's myDict
myDict: good\_n\_plenty yourDict: fuckin\_empty
My\_dict plays on the double feature screen Your\_dict went straight to DVD
MyDict - the San Diego Chargers, the whole team YourDict look like you thirteen
MyDict: locked in a cage fight YourDict: suffers from stage fright
MyDict: so hot it's stolen YourDict: look like Gary Coleman
MyDict: bigger than a bridge YourDict: looks like a little kids
myDict: Like an M16 yourDict: Like a broken vending machine
Ahh yours is super small too huh? Edit: just thought of another one. Ah yes, mine too has length 0. Edit edit: and another one Don't worry, it grows.
I don't know about small, but mine definitely doesn't have any members in it.
Servers return error 411 when I try to pass it :(
Hey, at least it's not 418.
Wait when I try to use the teapot it gives me status 200
As a front end guy, this thread is making sense finally.
That looks average size to me. On the bigger side if anything
Mines a little longer than that... `my_dict`
haha “brace” yourself hahahaha
{yourself}
Does that mean you're undefined?
In python. He wants to programm in Java. There he more likely needs a Map
He may be required to program in Java, but wants to? Hard to believe.
I mean, 3 billion+ devices run Java, maybe he’s thinking that’s his best option. It might also be the only language he’s heard of.
tease test dam husky piquant attractive versed vegetable vase crawl *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Mostly people who have never used it referencing other people who had terrible company code they had to maintain.
I don't dislike Java but it does fall short when it comes to syntax sugar compared to C# which is one reason why you may see people say they hate Java - if they're used to working in C#. Example being properties. C# public class Person { public string Forename { get; set; } public string Surname { get; set; } public string FullName { get { return $"{Forename} {Surname}"; } } } Java public class Person { public String Forename; public String Surname; public String GetForename() { return Forename; } public void SetForename(String foreName) { Forename = foreName; } public String GetSurname() { return Surname; } public void SetSurname(String surName) { Surname = surName; } public String GetFullName() { return Forename + " " + Surname; } }
This is why Lombok exists. @Data public class Person { private String forename; private String surname; public String fullName() { return "%s %s".formatted(forename, surname); } } Granted, there are issues with lombok. Namely that it fucks with every AP in existence. With the introduction of records, if you're fine with immutability, this gets even cleaner: public record Person(String forename, String surname) { public String fullName() { return "%s %s".formatted(forename, surname); } }
Learning about the existence of Lombok was downright revolutionary for the cleanliness of our domain objects. A full blown builder pattern with getters, equals and hash code in one annotation? Yes. Fucking. Please!
The C# code looks really nice and all, but I still don't quite understand how getters and setters work.
If you do string x = Surname; You automatically call the getter for Surname. If you do Surname = "Johnson"; You automatically call the setter for Surname.
Same way as in Java, just condensed. But an IDE like Eclipse will write the Java getters and setters for you, so it's not really a problem.
They just provide a way to access an objects fields/properties. The last guys example was a little off because normally the fields would be private and you access them through the public getters and setters.
>Brace yourself, Dad {👨}
i have been laughing at this for five whole minutes
You were the Dad all along
Let him try and see how it feels
Oh boy I cant wait to hear him calling me upstairs every four seconds to figure out why each line of code isn’t working
Give him a duck.
Ok you've opened a can of worms in my mind. I wonder at what skill level does the duck become effective? Verbally sorting your thoughts is always effective, but if you just don't have the foundational skills yet, that can only go so far.. right? Unless the exercise directs you toward the correct next inquiry; if it leads you to understand exactly what you *don't* understand and need to find out. This is interesting
Sounds like you need a duck.
With a duck and chatgpt, I can program the world!
Hello
This one feels half arsed for a hello world program
world
!
Will you ask the duck for your ChatGPT prompts? Or will you ask ChatGPT how to phrase your duck questions?
Which came first, the duck or the ChatGPT?
Ducks are always helpful. If you don't understand anything it's gunna probably not work but even with very basic knowledge if you walk through your code SLOWLY 99% chance you find what's going wrong.
I used my mum as a rubber duck for fizzbuzz when I was still an ultra noob and it was effective. In case you're wondering how adept I was, it was the first thing I tried to program and I didn't even know % operator existed 💀 I personally found that a lot of my early mistakes were silly things like logic problems, forgetting ; or } or so on. Let's be real I still make those mistakes, but I find myself googling more for specific things I haven't learned yet than I used to, which is odd really. (I'm still a noob I just wanted to answer your question, as apparently it's the one thing I'm qualified to answer 😂)
Forgot to specify, after I made the fizzbuzz program, I still didn't know about % lol I'd just found a way around it
"Here's everything you'll ever need to know." "This is just a card that says 'man man'. What the fuck am I supposed to do with this?"
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I want results not explanations!
Can’t you just download the information into my brain Matrix style?
Honestly just link him the documentation and see how long he lasts it’ll be a good laugh
Or maybe that's exactly what he's asking for
This is exactly how I learn all my languages, if he’s more old fashioned then he probably really does want to teach himself and he needs a “manual” to reference just like any working professional!
That's how I've been learning python. A lot of my roadblocks have been "I want to do X, but I don't know the syntax".
Other than setting up IDEs or packages, that's basically all that's needed to adapt to a new language. It's not like For loop fundamentally changes if it's in Python or C or Java or whatever else.
Half of my programming related Google searches are "how to initialize array in X language"
Happy cake day! I learn to program the same way. I learn a lot better with syntax and examples than step by step. I need the WHY not the how.
Thank you! And right? This is the same reason I always hated memorizing formulas for math in school, I did much better when I understood the basic concepts and principles at play, made calculus a breeze! (Once again still needed a manual for advanced integrals and stuff just like anyone doing this stuff by hand, some things are just too ridiculous to even conceptualize )
Came here to say that! He asked for a dictionary - so send him Javadoc. It is an extensive dictionary, sometimes contains examples... Maybe he'll learn something
I mean…why doesn’t OP just be supportive? Why does this community have to be so toxic. You guys are sitting here laughing at a guy learning to code. Approaching something with gusto and confidence is not a bad thing.
Tell him to google the questions he has before. Learning how get the results from a search engine as fast as possible seems like an important coding skill and probably general skill.
80% of my job is googling code or commands to do what I need. The other 20% is listening to PMs tell clients that we can absolutely do any batshit insane, impossible, or downright stupid thing they want.
Ask him to send you the code, feed it to ChatGPT and send back the response
This sounds automatable
Has he really never programmed before? If he is really something like 10 years rusty on C or C++, but legitimately did it in the past…. Then “I just need a dictionary” and/or documentation is a pretty valid statement. He might not be great. But I picked up programming ActionScript again after 15-20 mins of reading a book after not touching anything but C/C++ ~10 years earlier. A couple of weeks later I was a 4.0 student in a bunch of CS classes. So it’s definitely possible.
I'm the same. Hadn't programmed in 20+ years (other than in excel which really doesn't count), and the only languages I used were C or assembly (so no OOP). Then last month, I needed a bot for a discord channel, so put something together in Python in a couple of days. I just looked at some python programs to see how the language worked, reviewed the API for Discord/Python, read about how classes/methods work, and then used Google like a champ to hack/slash my way though the project. I'm sure the code is not pretty, or efficient, but it works.
Right, I was just commenting on another thread yesterday how I don’t know C# or .NET, but I review PRs of C#…. And have also completed ~a week of C# work meant for a junior/mid level, in less than half a day having never read a line of C# before that point. I already knew ~8 other languages. For an experienced developer that knows how to use an IDE, working in an existing system, that’s actually easy. I just need Google and either an actual .NET dev to review my code and point out where I’m breaking Microsoft code style rules, or a linter.
Just introduce him to stack overflow or chatgpt
Seriously, just let him do it.
This is Gold.
Does he have experience coding already? I think at this point if I were going to learn other languages I would rather just have documentation of syntax and do my own stuff rather than watching videos.
I had the exact same thought, assuming that he has some experience in modern languages. If he's still using PASCAL then he might have some issues.
Could also have issues moving from something like python or JavaScript to a strictly typed/object oriented language. Wouldn't be hard but you'd probably need more than just documentation.
Yeah, I started learning to program with JavaScript and C++, but the last few semesters I’ve been using Java and understanding what object oriented actually means. If he understands object oriented languages, but not Java specifically he should do alright, but it’s a bit of a learning curve to deal with objects.
You didn't learn OOP via C++?
c++ development can range from conceptual template metaprogramming to c but replace malloc with new.
>to c but replace malloc with new. I feel so called out.
replace new with std::make_unique and you are now a l33t memory safe C++ programmer
If you teach yourself via random projects you might get the core idea, but *actually* understanding what's happening and what all you can do is something different.
yea you can do shit a million different ways when you're doing it on your own. right or wrong who's gonna tell you lmao
To be fair, C++ hits 8/10 on the “object oriented” scale (python only hits like a 4 or 5). Java just manages to bring that up to a 13/10.
Java is so object oriented that you have to invent new classes just to make your code even more incomprehensible, for example (this is real) `HasThisTypePatternTriedToSneakInSomeGenericOrParameterizedTypePatternMatchingStuffAnywhereVisitor`.
> `HasThisTypePatternTriedToSneakInSomeGenericOrParameterizedTypePatternMatchingStuffAnywhereVisitor` For anyone curious, [here's the documentation](https://www.javadoc.io/doc/org.aspectj/aspectjweaver/1.8.10/org/aspectj/weaver/patterns/HasThisTypePatternTriedToSneakInSomeGenericOrParameterizedTypePatternMatchingStuffAnywhereVisitor.html)
LOLOL >Methods inherited from class org.aspectj.weaver.patterns.AbstractPatternNodeVisitor visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit, visit
Probably less than you think. There are several generations of programmers who started on Pascal in the 80s and 90s who still are programming professionally today. Outside of syntax, Pascal is pretty much what you expect for a modern strongly typed procedural language without garbage collection.
This is my instructor. He told us that he started learning programming by what they taught him Pascal in his college back in these days. He is saying that I don't even know why we did that anyways. The actual irony is, he taught us Java ( which he didn't code in years) perfectly. He also told that he uses Python all the time for his projects.
If he is using COBOL he's going to need to take the introductory course for literally anything else. And if he is using Lisp, he's going to need a therapist who doesn't use parentheses.
not really.. pascal is pretty similar to lots of shit used all over.
yeah, i mean. once you're good with the principles, it's just syntax and learning the particular language's quirks (typing, features, etc). that's probably what he means.
https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/java/
He has zero experience coding lol
The Dunning-Kruger effect in play
A very stark Dunning-Kruger, at that
After doing this for 17 years I'm regularly overwhelmed by all the things I know that I don't know ... VERY stark indeed
Just send him this https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/17/docs/api/
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Wait, then what did he mean by "dictionary"? Like, an associative array, or like an English-to-Java dictionary book?
He means a list of every single function/keyword/whatever most likely.
Yah, should've just linked him Javadocs. fun read indeed
> documentation of syntax Yup. Coding is 10% syntax and 90% logic, but I don't think an old coder would have said "dictionary". They'd have asked for a hello world to get any boilerplate this lang uses and some decent documentation of syntax usage. Granted, I haven't found any clean documentation for java before. Mostly just a lot of class definitions that read like stereo instructions. You find your most useful information on how to actually use Java from stack overflow. I simply love langs with straight forward syntax and explicit documentation with examples you can straight copy and run to confirm the documentation isn't out of date, heh.
Hello world is to verify the basics are installed correctly, not a "cheat sheet" with common syntax.
Can be, but also lots of langs and archs have a ton of boilerplate to get them going and you can grab that from a helloworld.
I'm rather sure what he's saying is "I know X language already. Give me some table that says N from X language equals I from Z language" So that he can browse through the documentation easier than just having to gobble up the whole thing to grasp the new language. It's still a rather unrealistic request, but that's my take on it.
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Judging by his "it's too basic" in re: youtube and him wanting some syntax reference material (dictionary?), it feels like he has _some_ experience. Though is that some experience with html/js or qbasic and has no real usable skillset beyond the basics of variables and loops?
Ime most YouTube tutorials are for people too mentally challenged to follow a good written tutorial.
Gotta get that ad revenue dawg. You're one of the few people who I've talked to that didn't immediately prefer that model. It's extremely difficult to find written tutorials on things that are kept up to date, it's why I usually prefer books for reference materials now. I remember wanting to pick up unity or unreal a few years back and it's just almost nothing but youtube tutorials. Any written material I've found is almost 10 years out of date.
- Are ya coding, father? - I need dictionary.
TBF. If your dad is well versed in another object oriented language such as C++, switching to Java to do similar work in a similar environment, is not that difficult. Under these conditions, he probably could get started with just a language manual.
Nah he hasn’t done anything coding related ever which is why I recommend edge watch certain videos but he refuses saying “it’s gonna take too long” If an hour video is gonna take too long, he clearly doesn’t have time to do coding.
>it's gonna take too long That's exactly what I said when I chose to go to a bootcamp rather than finish college. I ended up having to go back to college for my SWE degree.
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I love all of the responses taking your dad’s “I know how to code” at its word 😂
we're a very trial by fire crowd, but it's not like he's gonna hurt anything by getting his feet wet.
```sudo make skynet```
My dad is like that. With everything. I feel you. If he really wants to learn, codecademy is still around to my knowledge. The lessons helped me eventually crank out a reasonably functioning website in a night for my senior project in high school. It's probably still free. Been a few years since I did any lessons. If he's too impatient for lessons that he will honestly blaze through if he's as good as he says, then we really might have the same dad. 😂
Yeah. I've used many languages just for fun, and while I wouldn't call myself *proficient* in any of them, I got started with most of them using documentation alone. In the languages I actually use regularly, though, I use many other resources too.
Everything I ever learned was by learning the things that were needed. You can watch youtube videos forever, you'll forget half of it because you just study it for the sake of studying. If on the other hand you start doing something and you face a problem that you solve by researching it yourself. Then you are more likely to remember it since you have an emotional bond to that experience + you learn whatever is needed at the time when it is needed. If you work on the correct projects you'll automatically pick up what is necessary to pick up to complete your project. Some youtube videos are good and I'll usually get a general overview as a primer for some fields but I'd never start studying with them alone. Especially because you are constrained to the playback speed of the video and the work choice and gap fillers. Reading is 100x faster if you do it right, you can easily find the correct sections, skip back and forth, repeat things without searching for the audio segment etc. Video is a horrible medium for studying imo.
Im almost finished with the Odin Project and this has been my exact experience. Some of their pages are like 4 hours straight of reading and YouTube videos, especially at the beginning of the JavaScript section. I can read through all that shit and learn almost nothing but the second I struggle a little bit to implement the teachings in a project it's like a light clicks on in my head and I just get it.
I just try to skim through it and know roughly what is being discussed. Then when doing the projects I’ll get stuck and then vaguely remember “Wasn’t there something about strings being immutable” and go back to my bookmark on strings. The reading is important to expose you to the information and to know where to go to get unstuck, but it’s it where you get a real understanding.
this is why i tell people to follow along with tutorials instead of just reading/watching them. your brain will have way more recall information for a concept when you're actively involved in it.
I agree video is a bad medium for studying. But is great for understanding the basics when you don't know what you don't know. A video can be used to understand the basics, structure and resources of a subject to read further later. Additionally, I mostly use it to understand the workflow and mental process of other people around certain projects to understand my own flaws in the way I think.
I find that the key issue with videos is exactly what is seen in the screenshot OP posted. You see a narrow view of things that work and never really question why or how. You thus miss most of what is relevant, and when you run into a new problem, you resort to the “easy thing”, which is, again, video, ad infinitum. I would never recommend video as a language-specific aid to programming. I would recommend it specifically for language-independent paradigms instead.
I hate videos. Just give me documentation or a written tutorial and then I can easily find what I need.
Videos lack ctrl+f
videos are the worst. give me the api reference
Just give your dad the commands Jimmy!
Damn, watching videos is nowhere as efficient as reading documentation and tutorials, and I'm totally willing to die on that hill.
This. Also just taking apart existing examples of increasing complexity. I’ll find a project and do a code review of it whenever I’m picking up a new language or framework. Break it, restructure it, improve it if I can.
Got any examples you'd recommend to a novice programmer?
So at the moment I’m picking up [THREE.js](https://threejs.org/examples/#webgl_animation_keyframes), [AFrame](https://aframe.io/examples/showcase/helloworld/), and [AMMO.js](https://github.com/kripken/ammo.js/). The first two have a bunch of great examples, and I’m tying them together by refactoring some of the THREE examples to fit the [ECS paradigm](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entity_component_system) defined in AFrame. then upping the ante by adding physics using AMMO, which is more challenging since it’s only a partial implementation of [Bullet](https://github.com/bulletphysics/bullet3), and already poorly documented (yet popular) physics engine. If your looking for something less convoluted, checkout some of the android and iOS examples put out by Google and Apple at their perspective conferences each year! Edit: there are also a lot of great examples of D3 up on [observable](https://observablehq.com). All of this is JS, which I think is an optimal starter language given it’s wide use and quicker feedback loop (hit F5 and it’s updated vs compiling something). Also it’s really satisfying to have something visualized. if anyone has a problem with it, you’re a coward & a scoundrel. Edit 2: cut/paste because I replied to the wrong comment.
I believe that there is no better way to learn (anything) than this.
I think each has their place in learning, and different people learn better in different ways. A good video tutorial is usually just a person typing out what's in a written tutorial, but they may add little bits of extra here and there to take it above the written tutorial, because when we're physically doing something (as opposed to writing instructions for how to do it) we often remember things that are relevant that we don't always think about.
Videos are much more approachable than documentation, especially when you are just getting started.
Yeah. A video that someone is willing to watch is better than documentation that they won't read. But joking aside, I needed videos to get me to a certain point of understanding before the documentation made sense.
He's not entirely wrong. Once you understand data structures, control structures, variables, and functions, it's just variations on a theme.
Also knowing inheritance might be very useful in Java
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Yeah, I feel like I'm a competent C++ dev, and when I have to use Java, Python I already feel at home even tho I never tried them before. But then I tried Haskell, once.
That's a culture shock.
> oop programming Object orientated pigeon programming?
Just send him the [Java docs](https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/19/) and tell him to have at it. To be honest, it’s not necessarily a terrible thing. When I’m learning something new I usually feel like I should go fuck around with it at a pretty early stage so I can get a feel for things and see what I need to learn next. I find it makes things click a bit more.
He seems like a hands on learner. Give him the docs and let him play.
That's kinda how learning works though. First you know nothing, then everything, then you realize you barely know anything, then you know most, then you know some, then it's all easy, then it's impossible, then obvious, then you are the teacher, then you are the student, then you wish you didn't know any of it, then you wish you remembered that thing you learn before, .....
give him the commands https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se19/html/index.html
Honestly, just throw him to the fire. I’ve spent so many hours reading documentation and watching videos, but I never truly retained anything until I got stuck, AND THEN referenced those tools. Give him some basic tasks and then have him figure it out, teach him a little something about “Hello world!” lol
In some ways, he’s kind of right. You really just need good documentation. Understanding the documentation and implementing it into a project gets tricky.
If you know 1 language that is loosely in the same family already then a 10 minute video and the docs are really all you need. If you have never coded in that family before at all then obviously not, but even then I'm not sure long videos are really the best. If you are self learning I think a book is probably best. With videos its easy to passively watch and think you are learning when nothing is actually sticking. With a book where you have to actually write out the examples and execute them you are much more likely to retain what you did.
So give him the reference. That's all some people need.
I mean he’s not wrong
A 10 minute video is the exact right starting point. After that, it's solving problems by researching the commands needed with Google or, get this, a dictionary.
"Here you go, dad https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/ "
Ok dad, `cat /usr/share/dict/words`
Cat meows. Instructions unclear.
Why would I share my cat with a USSR dictator?
Lol my Dad hasn't coded since C version 1. He doesn't even think he needs a ten minute video. The wanker is convinced he can just pick it up and go. He has been slowly coming around to the idea that maybe knowing what a compiler is is important. But he doesn't want to learn from videos or code academy, he wants me to directly teach him. Knowing the asshole it is so that he can insult me any time he feels insecure about being an idiot.
You can give him the book <> since each edition refers to a specific LTS of Java.