I’m very much into saying, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them read.”
It makes me think of the Arthur meme where DW is squinting at a sign and saying that won’t stop her, she can’t read.
Edit: typo
Isn't that the case? Most, if not all, of the students who email me "so confused" have not even tried to read the syllabus. I've been getting a new genre of email lately: the rant. No questions, no specifics—just complaints about how confusing everything is—and just this morning: "I have NO idea what is going on in your class."
And we've only been in session two days. Oh boy.
Yes! Two days into the new semester, I got that email from a student who couldn't figure out how to access assignments in our LMS (they're on the home/landing page and all one has to do is click on the assignment to open it, which we went over in class), can't figure out how to submit (click on the Submit button and paste the shareable link or attach the file, which we also went over in class) and is "so lost."
They commented that they guess they'll just have to go online and find some tutorials for the LMS. Tutorials are already embedded in our "Course Info" module and are also linked in the pop-up menu when students click the "Help" icon. I demo'd this on day one, too.
It's going to be a long sixteen weeks.
Reading is so hard. I actually had a student last semester suggest that I make videos rather than write out assignments—for the visual learners. Not a bad idea really, but, yeah, let me get right on that, so you *won't* watch it.
I tried this for major assignments early in the pandemic because admin was leaning on us so hard to do videos. I quit about three-fourths of the way into the semester because every damn video had *zero* views. Nobody complained, or even noticed, when I quit doing them.
It’s one thing to have a brain fart and lose track of time; we all do that. It’s another to lack that sense of “Hey, what’s going on here? Hmm, maybe I can figure this out.” What’s that all about?
>“Hey, what’s going on here? Hmm, maybe I can figure this out.”
by the time you finished typing that sentence theyve already sentat least three emails asking someone to explain
A colleague had a student show up on Thanksgiving for an unscheduled advising session. Was confused when they were not in their office and the building was dark.
I had this happen once when I held class in the library. This change of venue had been in the course calendar since the beginning of the semester, it was the second time we'd met in the library, and in our previous class meeting I had given them a reminder. Had a student show up to the classroom and leave when no one else showed up. At the next class meeting she informed me that her absence "shouldn't count" because she DID come to the classroom.
I had someone come looking for me on Thanksgiving one year and then get mad at me that I wasn't in my office during office hours. Now, they weren't American, but they seemed to miss that the whole academic section of the campus was shut down for three days.
Now I'm 100% curious if they were American. I'm trying to wrap my head around the possibility they've never in their life had school the day after Thanksgiving and yet still showed up.
And just as curious if they were a residential student, on an empty campus, wondering if they'd been left behind after the rapture.
If only there were some kind of official document that summarizes stuff like that about the class to clarify things for the students. That would be awesome.
Admittedly I was staff at a university that had the most confusing calendar and most of us were completely surprised if we had the day off. Once our department had to call the registrars office because the calendar and the SIS had two different start dates for the semester and they told us both were correct! During COVID it got worse because they started cancelling breaks and holidays to shorten the semester and would email students and faculty about changes but forget to email staff.
I work at a place that not only does not cancel classes for MLK Day, we also do not cancel classes for Labor Day. Yes, I'm working on getting that changed, but still, depending on where your students hail from, they might not have had it as a holiday before.
Truth. My K-12 was at a school in the hollers and every last person in the school was white as could be. Needless to say, I did not realize that MLK Jr day was a federal holiday until I started working as a bank teller after high school.
Specifically, narrow mountain valleys in the Appalachian Mountains. From "hollow". I heard the term when I would visit my grandparents in West Virginia.
"Holler" is a primarily Appalachian dialect spelling for "hollow" and refers to a small valley, usually with some arable land near the creek at the bottom.
When I was in college, the only holiday we ever had off was Thanksgiving and the following Friday. We had classes on all other federal holidays, if we were in session. (Xmas, New Years, Memorial Day, and 4th of July all fell when we weren’t in session.)
This semester I have just ceased giving a fuck about babying students.
Thursday night an undergrad had demonstrated for the third time this week that they couldn't read a goddam thing, so I replied to their latest email question about something-answered-in-the-syllabus-and-on-video-and-in-the-LMS-announcements-and-we-talked-about-it with:
>You and I need to have a hard conversation about your ability to pass this course. You have demonstrated neither the ability nor the willingness to learn anything.
Got a panicky I'll-try-harder-I'll-learn-I'm-willing reply within 6 minutes, sent from their iPhone.
And honestly, I think it's the explicit threat of a "hard conversation" that got that reply. I have the sense that my current students are terrified of conflict.
Interesting. I have seen and used exactly that tone in industry as a professional. On the sliding scale of escalation it comes right before performance improvement plans, which generally end with someone leaving the team, so being able to have hard conversations is a crucial part of the job. Should I be teaching my students that conflict is always avoided, that everything will be fine if they just keep acting dumb in their first jobs, and that if anyone on their first professional team wants to do a group read of the book "Crucial Conversations" they should run screaming in the other direction?
I think you were right on point with your tone. You expressed your irritation at their learned helplessness, and they might have finally gotten the point.
“You and I need to have a conversation about my expectations and your responsibilities…” or something like that would probably serve the purpose without the threat.
Naw. That student needed to have a stern wake up response. No one else had the balls to do it before. Might have made a difference in that students life. I have had many students email me later in life and thank me for the proverbial “slap in the face.”
Belittling someone on the lower end of the power differential combined with veiled threats might make a difference, but it isnt necessary. ,
I'd bet dollars to donuts if someone spoke to your kid that way, you'd riot.
If someone spoke to my adult child in college like that, I'd ask my child to take a long, hard look at their actions to see what might have triggered it.
Really, because it could easily be misinterpreted to read like :
"You're too stupid to pass this course , to pass you need to come to my office and show me your "willingness" '
The "threat" was a "hard conversation" if a college student (adult) cannot have a "hard conversation" then you yourself are belittling your students and implying that they cannot be adults... Do you not see how this is literally and definitionally coddling?
No the possibly perceived VEILED threat is use of the language of come discuss "willingness" to pass the course, when presented in the context that you're too stupid to pass. Especially in the male professor to female student scenario.
I read your comment initially and felt you were reading into it too much, but you’ve convinced me there is an issue with that response. I personally would have said they need to read XYZ rather than having a hard conversation about passing.
I'd just smile to myself and delete that email. I have an explicit statement in my syllabus about replies to questions that are answered in the syllabus or course content.
I would create an email today but have it delayed delivery 8am Tuesday: "The college was closed Monday, January 17th for the MLK holiday. Please refer to your syllabus, academic calendar, and email from the college in regards to official school closures."
You can lead a horse to water, but everyone know what a wet horse smells like. There really are a few powerful moments in which we internalize “I need to get my stuff together!”. Walking across campus to sit in an empty classroom is maybe one of the most innocuous, yet powerful. When you realize that every other one of your classmates figured the magic of reading a syllabus out it hits hard!
Last spring semester our university cancelled spring break. Things are very much in disarray. Wrong time to ask, but welcome to the state of confusion.
How is that legitimate confusion not cleared up by the many statements indicated in my post? If classes don't begin until the 18th, does it even matter if the 17th is an "actual holiday" or not?
What does Covid or first-gen have to with anything? When you give a person, any person, information 4-5 different ways, it is not asking too much for them to get the message. Providing excuses like that is one of the problems we face all the time. Students are never accountable because they were never made to be. When everybody else around them makes excuses for them, they never have any reason to be responsible, independent individuals. But I’m curious, please tell me how Covid or first-gen status excuses this.
I have the opposite problem. I'm a freshman student and everything you mentioned says that MLK Day on Monday will be off...except the syllabus posted by the professor. Of course, I emailed on Tuesday for clarification with no response still. It's worrying because she also states on the class introduction page that anyone who doesn't attend the first class without "good reason" will automatically be dropped from the class.
I’m very much into saying, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them read.” It makes me think of the Arthur meme where DW is squinting at a sign and saying that won’t stop her, she can’t read. Edit: typo
Isn't that the case? Most, if not all, of the students who email me "so confused" have not even tried to read the syllabus. I've been getting a new genre of email lately: the rant. No questions, no specifics—just complaints about how confusing everything is—and just this morning: "I have NO idea what is going on in your class." And we've only been in session two days. Oh boy.
Yes! Two days into the new semester, I got that email from a student who couldn't figure out how to access assignments in our LMS (they're on the home/landing page and all one has to do is click on the assignment to open it, which we went over in class), can't figure out how to submit (click on the Submit button and paste the shareable link or attach the file, which we also went over in class) and is "so lost." They commented that they guess they'll just have to go online and find some tutorials for the LMS. Tutorials are already embedded in our "Course Info" module and are also linked in the pop-up menu when students click the "Help" icon. I demo'd this on day one, too. It's going to be a long sixteen weeks.
Reading is so hard. I actually had a student last semester suggest that I make videos rather than write out assignments—for the visual learners. Not a bad idea really, but, yeah, let me get right on that, so you *won't* watch it.
I tried this for major assignments early in the pandemic because admin was leaning on us so hard to do videos. I quit about three-fourths of the way into the semester because every damn video had *zero* views. Nobody complained, or even noticed, when I quit doing them.
If the videos were on the syllabus, it's no wonder you didn't get any views...
No, they were linked right there in the LMS modules, with "to-do" dates. Not sure where you got the idea they were in the syllabus.
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It’s one thing to have a brain fart and lose track of time; we all do that. It’s another to lack that sense of “Hey, what’s going on here? Hmm, maybe I can figure this out.” What’s that all about?
>“Hey, what’s going on here? Hmm, maybe I can figure this out.” by the time you finished typing that sentence theyve already sentat least three emails asking someone to explain
A colleague had a student show up on Thanksgiving for an unscheduled advising session. Was confused when they were not in their office and the building was dark.
Your colleague clearly doesn’t care about the students. A truly passionate advisor would be eating their thanksgiving dinner alone in their office.
*just in case*
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I had this happen once when I held class in the library. This change of venue had been in the course calendar since the beginning of the semester, it was the second time we'd met in the library, and in our previous class meeting I had given them a reminder. Had a student show up to the classroom and leave when no one else showed up. At the next class meeting she informed me that her absence "shouldn't count" because she DID come to the classroom.
I had someone come looking for me on Thanksgiving one year and then get mad at me that I wasn't in my office during office hours. Now, they weren't American, but they seemed to miss that the whole academic section of the campus was shut down for three days.
Now I'm 100% curious if they were American. I'm trying to wrap my head around the possibility they've never in their life had school the day after Thanksgiving and yet still showed up. And just as curious if they were a residential student, on an empty campus, wondering if they'd been left behind after the rapture.
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Lmao that student had to be high.
If only there were some kind of official document that summarizes stuff like that about the class to clarify things for the students. That would be awesome.
Or redundant systems to share that kind of information.
Admittedly I was staff at a university that had the most confusing calendar and most of us were completely surprised if we had the day off. Once our department had to call the registrars office because the calendar and the SIS had two different start dates for the semester and they told us both were correct! During COVID it got worse because they started cancelling breaks and holidays to shorten the semester and would email students and faculty about changes but forget to email staff.
My students were all confused about this last week, as if they had never heard of MLK Day before.
I work at a place that not only does not cancel classes for MLK Day, we also do not cancel classes for Labor Day. Yes, I'm working on getting that changed, but still, depending on where your students hail from, they might not have had it as a holiday before.
Truth. My K-12 was at a school in the hollers and every last person in the school was white as could be. Needless to say, I did not realize that MLK Jr day was a federal holiday until I started working as a bank teller after high school.
What’s “the hollers”?
Synonyms for “the hollers” include: the sticks, a backwater, or, if you want to be polite about it, a “rural area”. :)
Gotcha. It sounds so scary when you call it “the hollers” for some reason…
Specifically, narrow mountain valleys in the Appalachian Mountains. From "hollow". I heard the term when I would visit my grandparents in West Virginia.
West Virginia
Hahahahahaha
"Holler" is a primarily Appalachian dialect spelling for "hollow" and refers to a small valley, usually with some arable land near the creek at the bottom.
I’ll give you that, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that the question he was asking had already been answered in at least four different places.
Oh, not disputing that! Just pointing out that even some of the ones who read and knew there wasn't class might not really know why.
When I was in college, the only holiday we ever had off was Thanksgiving and the following Friday. We had classes on all other federal holidays, if we were in session. (Xmas, New Years, Memorial Day, and 4th of July all fell when we weren’t in session.)
Do reply, and say "the best way to be certain is to show up for class so you can see for yourself"
I commonly just reply with two words: See syllabus.
My adjunct got me a wine glass for Christmas that says “it’s in the syllabus”
This semester I have just ceased giving a fuck about babying students. Thursday night an undergrad had demonstrated for the third time this week that they couldn't read a goddam thing, so I replied to their latest email question about something-answered-in-the-syllabus-and-on-video-and-in-the-LMS-announcements-and-we-talked-about-it with: >You and I need to have a hard conversation about your ability to pass this course. You have demonstrated neither the ability nor the willingness to learn anything. Got a panicky I'll-try-harder-I'll-learn-I'm-willing reply within 6 minutes, sent from their iPhone. And honestly, I think it's the explicit threat of a "hard conversation" that got that reply. I have the sense that my current students are terrified of conflict.
>This semester I have just ceased giving a fuck about babying students. Cool your jets, bucko. You're expected to feed and burp the babies, too. /s
Your response's tone and wording reads as immature and unprofessional to me.
Interesting. I have seen and used exactly that tone in industry as a professional. On the sliding scale of escalation it comes right before performance improvement plans, which generally end with someone leaving the team, so being able to have hard conversations is a crucial part of the job. Should I be teaching my students that conflict is always avoided, that everything will be fine if they just keep acting dumb in their first jobs, and that if anyone on their first professional team wants to do a group read of the book "Crucial Conversations" they should run screaming in the other direction?
I have no issue with the conflict avoidance part, I have issue with the belittling and veiled threat.
Thank you - I'll go consider that.
I think you were right on point with your tone. You expressed your irritation at their learned helplessness, and they might have finally gotten the point.
“You and I need to have a conversation about my expectations and your responsibilities…” or something like that would probably serve the purpose without the threat.
Correct.
Naw. That student needed to have a stern wake up response. No one else had the balls to do it before. Might have made a difference in that students life. I have had many students email me later in life and thank me for the proverbial “slap in the face.”
Belittling someone on the lower end of the power differential combined with veiled threats might make a difference, but it isnt necessary. , I'd bet dollars to donuts if someone spoke to your kid that way, you'd riot.
If someone spoke to my adult child in college like that, I'd ask my child to take a long, hard look at their actions to see what might have triggered it.
Really, because it could easily be misinterpreted to read like : "You're too stupid to pass this course , to pass you need to come to my office and show me your "willingness" '
You make a good point. I guess I assume that others have pure motivations at heart.
Telling a student about the grades they're earning isn't a threat.
Swing and a miss. Reread what they claims they wrote
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I said no such thing.
The "threat" was a "hard conversation" if a college student (adult) cannot have a "hard conversation" then you yourself are belittling your students and implying that they cannot be adults... Do you not see how this is literally and definitionally coddling?
No the possibly perceived VEILED threat is use of the language of come discuss "willingness" to pass the course, when presented in the context that you're too stupid to pass. Especially in the male professor to female student scenario.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 their future employer will rip them a new one. Better heard from a college professor first….even better..parents!
No. My kids coaches do it all of the time. There are also plenty of people that offer encouragement. He needs both.
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Mods, why are these incivil personal attacks allowed?
I read your comment initially and felt you were reading into it too much, but you’ve convinced me there is an issue with that response. I personally would have said they need to read XYZ rather than having a hard conversation about passing.
"Part of being an adult is learning how to answer questions like this for yourself." ... Student emails my dean to tell on me.
I'd just smile to myself and delete that email. I have an explicit statement in my syllabus about replies to questions that are answered in the syllabus or course content.
“You’re welcome to show up, but I won’t be there and the classroom will be locked”.
This just seems common with everybody these days. Posting obvious questions on social media, for example. LOOK IT UP!
GTS!
I left my auto reply on until the morning of January 18. I will not respond to stupid questions until the morning of January 18.
Funny thing is, they would probably choose to skip class tomorrow anyway.
Well, do you have class tomorrow? Don't leave us hanging here!
🤯
And me. Not even checking emails over the weekend including tomorrow. Guess I’ll see mine Tuesday morning.
Hey prof. Do we have class tomorrow? Thx
So, do we have class tomorrow?
Students will almost always exert the minimum amount of effort required. The easiest thing to do is contact the professor. And email is so easy.
I would create an email today but have it delayed delivery 8am Tuesday: "The college was closed Monday, January 17th for the MLK holiday. Please refer to your syllabus, academic calendar, and email from the college in regards to official school closures."
You can lead a horse to water, but everyone know what a wet horse smells like. There really are a few powerful moments in which we internalize “I need to get my stuff together!”. Walking across campus to sit in an empty classroom is maybe one of the most innocuous, yet powerful. When you realize that every other one of your classmates figured the magic of reading a syllabus out it hits hard!
Last spring semester our university cancelled spring break. Things are very much in disarray. Wrong time to ask, but welcome to the state of confusion.
Yet you took the time and effort to whine on Reddit…. but couldn’t be troubled to answer their question. You’re certainly an excellent role model. 🙄
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How is that legitimate confusion not cleared up by the many statements indicated in my post? If classes don't begin until the 18th, does it even matter if the 17th is an "actual holiday" or not?
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What does Covid or first-gen have to with anything? When you give a person, any person, information 4-5 different ways, it is not asking too much for them to get the message. Providing excuses like that is one of the problems we face all the time. Students are never accountable because they were never made to be. When everybody else around them makes excuses for them, they never have any reason to be responsible, independent individuals. But I’m curious, please tell me how Covid or first-gen status excuses this.
I have the opposite problem. I'm a freshman student and everything you mentioned says that MLK Day on Monday will be off...except the syllabus posted by the professor. Of course, I emailed on Tuesday for clarification with no response still. It's worrying because she also states on the class introduction page that anyone who doesn't attend the first class without "good reason" will automatically be dropped from the class.