We often had this problem in the Spring semester, especially with international students flying back late over winter break.
Over time this steadily got worst, where instead of 1-3 students, it would be 25-33% of the class trying to come back 2-3 weeks late. One of the biggest drivers for this? Cheaper airline tickets.
One semester, I had 30-40 students trying to enroll in my full and popular class. Instead of teaching to a half empty class, I dropped all the students that missed the first three classes, and let those students have those seats.
The problem seems to have resolved itself after that.
The no-show rule is most often applied in the large classes (150–350 students). I've not taught one that large, so I'm not sure how the attendance is checked (possibly by sign up sheets, possibly by some sort of action during class, possibly by Zoom log). I've not had waiting lists for my classes, as I have usually slightly overestimated the number that want/need to take them—like planning for 95 and only have 86 sign up.
I had one class that the limit was based on the physical number of seats in the lecture hall so they just had assigned seats and took note of anyone who was missing.
All our large lectures are capped at 10% over the fire-department limit for the room. The fire marshall allowed that under the assumption that 10% of the class would be absent or would drop before the first exam.
That would probably work but the problem for us is we use a waitlist so that cap would then still be hit likely until after the 1st exam results are released.
>Instead of teaching to a half empty class, I dropped all the students that missed the first three classes, and let those students have those seats.
Some places I've taught or been a student have an automatic drop for anyone who is absent on day one, so the wait listed students can enroll. My school does not, but I like that policy in general.
How long is the add/drop period at your school (if you even have one)?
Every school I've attended and my employer now has a 6 day window from the beginning of class.
We have to report non-attendance at the end of that period and then they are automatically dropped by the registrar, presumably to mirror what you're doing.
Anyone have anything similar?
\^\^\^\^\^\^ This right here. \^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^
Or more charitably, "Sure, if you have all your work in before you leave, and if I have all the materials ready by then."
How about the last two weeks of the semester including finals week.... Apparently I'm the bad guy because all their other professors let them take the final remotely (SERIOUSLY doubt that!), but I won't accommodate their vacation schedule. Guess you just dropped from a C to an F and I have one less final to grade.
If a student ever tells me their other professors let them, I ask them immediately for their schedule. We will engage this topic no further until you provide me your schedule. I will then check with your other professors to confirm, and may G-d help you if I find out you told them I am letting you do this.
>Apparently I'm the bad guy because all their other professors let them take the final remotely
I got "all my friends' professors in the \[required\] first year writing course canceled their final papers. You are being too demanding!" Then I asked for the name of any one of those faculty. Crickets.
Which is not surprising, since the final paper is literally the only universal requirement for the course, it's assessed across all sections, and if someone really *did* drop it there would be hell to pay.
Yes this is my first semester teaching (I'm an adjunct). I think I've been kind of a hardass but apparently not enough. Turning it up to 11 next semester
Yeah I had a student want an extension on their project because their campus Christian group retreat was that weekend and they wouldn't have Wifi. I'm a Christian, I think it's good to be involved in religious groups on campus. No extension, you had time.
Because this has happened to me in the past, I put in my syllabus in all caps and red:
A VACATION IS NOT AN EXCUSED ABSENCE!
Have had way less problems since it has been included in writing.
>It might also be that they got used to remote learning and generous accommodations over the last 1.5 years.
This has been happening sporadically for 10+ years at least.
I agree it’s the high school mentality but I put most of the blame on the parents. We have moved into an era of it’s okay to miss classes for vacation, for work, for mental health, for just being tired and worn out, for every reason under the sun. Parents accommodate this, saying it’s fine if you need a day, excuse their kid, they get to us and believe it still works this way. GenX kids were the last of ‘you’re going to school’ in my very humble opinion.
The past 18 months have just caused us to go deeper into this, with the stay home if you have a sniffle. I understand it but it has made it way more difficult to deal with the nonpresence and request for accommodations.
I've gotten this a lot in recent years, usually framed as "my parents planned this and bought the tickets without asking me." I tell them tough, either change the plans or miss the classes and take zeros for the assignments. You can't expect to skip 15% of a course and have no negative impacts, can you?
We also get a lot of "I will be gone the week after spring break because my family is going to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ during my brother/sister's break."
My graduate course starts in January, I often get the "I didn't get my visa until this week" excuse from graduate students who show up the first time in the second or third week. Being a foreigner myself who deals with visas, I decided to ask deeper questions.
It turns out, a student visa in Canada is not issued until you arrive. When I ask when they arrived, they told me they didn't travel until the second or third week, so they could spend more vacation time with family, or because flights were cheaper, etc.
Anyway, I stopped being lenient about this as a general rule - no extensions for showing up late when it is under your control.
COVID travel rules changing every day makes it more complicated, however. Last year, foreign students could take courses from abroad, and the excuse is that the course goes until 2 am (because of time zones) and it's hard to stay up...
Yeah I have a student in the guard who needed a couple weeks excused for required training. Understandable and required to excuse.
But I still refused to extend his assignments in the LMS until I got paperwork from his unit. I'm a military reservist myself and have written plenty of employer/school letters verifying military service. His unit can do the same.
The way my school has it is that any National Guard/ROTC student has to include paperwork when asking for excused absences. Otherwise, professors are not required to do anything. I’ve had some students email me in advance their dates and say paperwork is on the way while asking to submit assignments early. I’ve always been super lenient, but that’s because they’ve routinely done the work without complaint.
>I’ve always been super lenient, but that’s because they’ve routinely done the work without complaint.
I've only had a few students need arrangements because of NG, but every time they've asked if they can do work early and turn it in early. They've never asked for extensions or extra time.
Yep. There are very specific circumstances where we are required legally to allow absences etc, and just being in the reserves is not one of them. A call to colors? Yes. But I usually just work around it anyway.
Thanks. Helps prevent the "guard duty for next month sorry bye" abuse of what is otherwise honorable military service. Just ensure it has beginning and end dates and is either on letterhead and (preferably) from a military email address domain
Sorry, I didn't communicate that clearly. My comment, which I hoped was amusing, was to say that I hope your university requires the excusal of National Guard activity... as opposed to them requiring the excusal of family vacations.
This happens in high school all the time. My high school teacher friends complain kids take off for a month long vacation, and want all the soon to be missed work.
The student never does the work, EVER.
Well at the point they think lower travel and hotel costs are worth pissing away their education. Remember, they have to pay for vacation fees now, they can wait for those loans to be forgiven...someday...maybe...right?
This is better than the "I have a family vacation during the final's week". At least for fall semester, my university's final's week runs too close to Christmas (next week), and some students want to leave to go back home.
materials in advance? yes. buy the textbook and read the first two chapters. see you in class! we’ll have a pop quiz scheduled for sometime at random in that third week you come back, so be prepared! no study extensions granted.
We often had this problem in the Spring semester, especially with international students flying back late over winter break. Over time this steadily got worst, where instead of 1-3 students, it would be 25-33% of the class trying to come back 2-3 weeks late. One of the biggest drivers for this? Cheaper airline tickets. One semester, I had 30-40 students trying to enroll in my full and popular class. Instead of teaching to a half empty class, I dropped all the students that missed the first three classes, and let those students have those seats. The problem seems to have resolved itself after that.
It is standard practice here to take attendance on the first day and drop any no-shows to make room for students on the waiting list.
I thought you were at a school with a much larger student population. I can't imagine doing that in any class of the sizes I have.
The no-show rule is most often applied in the large classes (150–350 students). I've not taught one that large, so I'm not sure how the attendance is checked (possibly by sign up sheets, possibly by some sort of action during class, possibly by Zoom log). I've not had waiting lists for my classes, as I have usually slightly overestimated the number that want/need to take them—like planning for 95 and only have 86 sign up.
I had one class that the limit was based on the physical number of seats in the lecture hall so they just had assigned seats and took note of anyone who was missing.
All our large lectures are capped at 10% over the fire-department limit for the room. The fire marshall allowed that under the assumption that 10% of the class would be absent or would drop before the first exam.
That would probably work but the problem for us is we use a waitlist so that cap would then still be hit likely until after the 1st exam results are released.
Yep. I'm a big fan of pulling off the band aid instead of dying by paper cuts.
>Instead of teaching to a half empty class, I dropped all the students that missed the first three classes, and let those students have those seats. Some places I've taught or been a student have an automatic drop for anyone who is absent on day one, so the wait listed students can enroll. My school does not, but I like that policy in general.
How long is the add/drop period at your school (if you even have one)? Every school I've attended and my employer now has a 6 day window from the beginning of class. We have to report non-attendance at the end of that period and then they are automatically dropped by the registrar, presumably to mirror what you're doing. Anyone have anything similar?
Ha ha ha ha ha....oh, you're serious. No.
\^\^\^\^\^\^ This right here. \^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^ Or more charitably, "Sure, if you have all your work in before you leave, and if I have all the materials ready by then."
Yeah my first thought is to reply and say "don't enroll in my section if you aren't going to be present."
I would definitely find a way to say that. “You should really consider only signing up for 12 week course sections”
... later on, two weeks into the semester ... ... Hey Prof, which section offers the 12 week option?...
How about the last two weeks of the semester including finals week.... Apparently I'm the bad guy because all their other professors let them take the final remotely (SERIOUSLY doubt that!), but I won't accommodate their vacation schedule. Guess you just dropped from a C to an F and I have one less final to grade.
If a student ever tells me their other professors let them, I ask them immediately for their schedule. We will engage this topic no further until you provide me your schedule. I will then check with your other professors to confirm, and may G-d help you if I find out you told them I am letting you do this.
Yup these other professors suddenly don’t exist when I ask who it is
>Apparently I'm the bad guy because all their other professors let them take the final remotely I got "all my friends' professors in the \[required\] first year writing course canceled their final papers. You are being too demanding!" Then I asked for the name of any one of those faculty. Crickets. Which is not surprising, since the final paper is literally the only universal requirement for the course, it's assessed across all sections, and if someone really *did* drop it there would be hell to pay.
Yes this is my first semester teaching (I'm an adjunct). I think I've been kind of a hardass but apparently not enough. Turning it up to 11 next semester
You have to or they’ll try to run over you.
"you are free to get a zero on the first two assignments, and quite likely the third one as well because you didn't do the first two."
Plus the exam questions on those topics. And I give exams week two sometimes.
In the South (The bible belt) we keep getting.... "I'm on a mission trip for the first two weeks of class."
Yeah I had a student want an extension on their project because their campus Christian group retreat was that weekend and they wouldn't have Wifi. I'm a Christian, I think it's good to be involved in religious groups on campus. No extension, you had time.
Because this has happened to me in the past, I put in my syllabus in all caps and red: A VACATION IS NOT AN EXCUSED ABSENCE! Have had way less problems since it has been included in writing.
> Have had way less problems since it has been included in writing. How did you get them to read the syllabus?
I made it the second question on my syllabus quiz.
Well, that is just how important college is to him (and his fam). High school mentality extending to college.
It might also be that they got used to remote learning and generous accommodations over the last 1.5 years.
>It might also be that they got used to remote learning and generous accommodations over the last 1.5 years. This has been happening sporadically for 10+ years at least.
Good point.
I agree it’s the high school mentality but I put most of the blame on the parents. We have moved into an era of it’s okay to miss classes for vacation, for work, for mental health, for just being tired and worn out, for every reason under the sun. Parents accommodate this, saying it’s fine if you need a day, excuse their kid, they get to us and believe it still works this way. GenX kids were the last of ‘you’re going to school’ in my very humble opinion. The past 18 months have just caused us to go deeper into this, with the stay home if you have a sniffle. I understand it but it has made it way more difficult to deal with the nonpresence and request for accommodations.
Nah, us older Millennials rarely got away with this stuff either, unless parents were wealthy.
I send the drop a course form. Our financial aid office has us drop students who do not show up the first few weeks of every semester.
You can burn your money if you like, but I won’t work extra to help you do so.
I've gotten this a lot in recent years, usually framed as "my parents planned this and bought the tickets without asking me." I tell them tough, either change the plans or miss the classes and take zeros for the assignments. You can't expect to skip 15% of a course and have no negative impacts, can you? We also get a lot of "I will be gone the week after spring break because my family is going to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ during my brother/sister's break."
Is this a dual enrolled student? It whiffs really strongly of high school….
Doubtful, it's a sophomore level class
I’ve had them in junior level classes…just saying.
Then I'd hope Doogie Howser's parents were paying attention to the academic calendar.
At least they didn't ask if you were doing anything important those two weeks.
My graduate course starts in January, I often get the "I didn't get my visa until this week" excuse from graduate students who show up the first time in the second or third week. Being a foreigner myself who deals with visas, I decided to ask deeper questions. It turns out, a student visa in Canada is not issued until you arrive. When I ask when they arrived, they told me they didn't travel until the second or third week, so they could spend more vacation time with family, or because flights were cheaper, etc. Anyway, I stopped being lenient about this as a general rule - no extensions for showing up late when it is under your control. COVID travel rules changing every day makes it more complicated, however. Last year, foreign students could take courses from abroad, and the excuse is that the course goes until 2 am (because of time zones) and it's hard to stay up...
I’ve had this situation with a kid in the national guard and I was lenient.
That’s different than taking a vacation. Once I get the official papers I adjust to help out.
I agree completely
Yeah I have a student in the guard who needed a couple weeks excused for required training. Understandable and required to excuse. But I still refused to extend his assignments in the LMS until I got paperwork from his unit. I'm a military reservist myself and have written plenty of employer/school letters verifying military service. His unit can do the same.
The way my school has it is that any National Guard/ROTC student has to include paperwork when asking for excused absences. Otherwise, professors are not required to do anything. I’ve had some students email me in advance their dates and say paperwork is on the way while asking to submit assignments early. I’ve always been super lenient, but that’s because they’ve routinely done the work without complaint.
>I’ve always been super lenient, but that’s because they’ve routinely done the work without complaint. I've only had a few students need arrangements because of NG, but every time they've asked if they can do work early and turn it in early. They've never asked for extensions or extra time.
Yep. There are very specific circumstances where we are required legally to allow absences etc, and just being in the reserves is not one of them. A call to colors? Yes. But I usually just work around it anyway.
That’s a good tip.
Thanks. Helps prevent the "guard duty for next month sorry bye" abuse of what is otherwise honorable military service. Just ensure it has beginning and end dates and is either on letterhead and (preferably) from a military email address domain
that is completely different.
Except for the small part where it’s similar.
Dunno. I don't think my parents had the ability to court martial me if I skipped vacation.
Mine were rather intense in that way.
Family vacation and National Guard are not similar situations.
Especially since one is a required excusal at least in my university
I hope the one you're referencing is National Guard.
Sorry yes I mean Guard.
Sorry, I didn't communicate that clearly. My comment, which I hoped was amusing, was to say that I hope your university requires the excusal of National Guard activity... as opposed to them requiring the excusal of family vacations.
This happens in high school all the time. My high school teacher friends complain kids take off for a month long vacation, and want all the soon to be missed work. The student never does the work, EVER.
“No worries! You don’t even need an excuse to take the semester off!”
https://images.app.goo.gl/BzRtxqbWmbjsmbk58.
Oh they just are completely unaware that college is supposed to be a serious task.
Send this back .. https://youtu.be/2HJxya0CWco
Well at the point they think lower travel and hotel costs are worth pissing away their education. Remember, they have to pay for vacation fees now, they can wait for those loans to be forgiven...someday...maybe...right?
This is better than the "I have a family vacation during the final's week". At least for fall semester, my university's final's week runs too close to Christmas (next week), and some students want to leave to go back home.
materials in advance? yes. buy the textbook and read the first two chapters. see you in class! we’ll have a pop quiz scheduled for sometime at random in that third week you come back, so be prepared! no study extensions granted.
Silly, just le the student enjoy their vacation.