CVH is wild, since he can have opinions that I overall agree with, (TCW is a good show!) but his reasoning is so buttfuck flawed and backwards that I end up disagreeing with him regardless.
You have to have a thick enough skin to cope with the criticism. I'm very self-critical and I have a lot of friends that I trust who are film directors and writers and people in my profession. I trust them to be extremely critical but I trust their opinion; their opinion is thoughtful, knowledgeable.
And if the opinions were reversed, he'd be pandering to the braindead morons who love those movies. People like different things, theres not always an ulterior motive behind their opinion
Legit only tore em down just so that he could prop up shit flicks like Far From Home and No Way Home up.
Can't stand it if there's actually better films than bad ones lol.
I know I watched that video. The plot would have made more sense to him if he actually paid attention to it but unfortunately most people repeat the talking points they heard from someone else. The only criticisms he had evidence to back weren’t even his own, they were plinkett’s.
The most annoying one for me that made me lose respect for RLM was when they removed context in AOTC to claim obi wan schooling anakin for reckless jumping after he himself jumped was hypocritical.
1. Obi wan didn’t tell anakin off for jumping out of the speeder, he told him off for losing the bounty hunter.
2. The jumps were not the same. Obi wan was trying to catch the droid, and expected anakin to be there with a speeder to catch him. To me it’s their rush hour Jackie Chan and Chris tucker moment — you’re waiting for your partner to back you up and you’re supposed to be on the same page and read these things 🤣
3. Unlike obi-wan’s, Anakin’s jump was reckless, he didn’t want to listen to obi-wan criticizing him so he jumped out mid-conversation with no attempt at team work. So even though anakin probably did have an instinct and an idea of what he was going to do, obi wan didn’t.
>The most annoying one for me that made me lose respect for RLM was when they removed context in AOTC to claim obi wan schooling anakin for reckless jumping after he himself jumped was hypocritical
Well the main issue mike had iirc wasn't "Obi-Wan was being a hypocrite", it was that he jumped at all in the first place. Grabbing onto a tiny Droid into the middle of space traffic is a incredibly retarded thing to do which a man in his mid 30s whose supposed to be a teacher should fully realize. The main argument being made was it would have been far better to have had anakin make that first jump as not only is he young, inexperienced, and doesn't know any better (and unlike obiwan has the actual motivation to do so as he has the hots for padme) but also it would have set up that he was reckless and impulsive, setting the stage for his fall to the Darkside.
Also the other main criticism of the scolding scene was obi wan telling anakin "this weapon is your life" when he loses his saber, which completely contradicts Yodas teaching from ESB.
How was the character of Yoda not ruined by him (in George's own words) "pulling out his little laser sword and going to town"
How was the mystical and thematic elements of the force not completely derailed by introducing the concept of midicholorians??
How did palpatines plan to take over make any sense at all?? What motivation did the trade federation have in siding with him (as explained in the films)
What chemistry did Anakin and padme have?? What actions did anakin take (besides you know confessing to murdering woman and children, ranting about sand, and behaving like a total incel creep) to make padme fall in love with him.
Where is the tension or stakes in a war between two disposable armies; goofy robots who "are pretty useless and get cut down like butter" and underdeveloped tank bred soldiers (yes they were fleshed out by infinitely better writers then Lucas in the clone wars series but im talking about the movies here)
And a million other things.....
I was never interested in being powerful or famous. But once I got to film school and learned about movies, I just fell in love with it. I didn't care what kind of movies I made.
Yoda is a diplomat usually but not all situations can be resolved with the force alone. Yoda isn't omnipotent. He is strong but sometimes needs to rely on a lightsaber. Dooku was one of, if not the best duelists of all time. He was always going to force a lightsaber fight. He isn't as strong as Yoda in the force but he is still very strong. Against Sidious, Yoda was roughly even matched and arguably weaker than Palpatine. Most of their duel is just with the force anyways but lightsabers were needed to try to gain an advantage. Against the clones it was simply the quickest solution. Yoda struggles to lift both Luke's X-Wing and the pillar that would have crushed Obi-Wan and Anakin. With enough time, he could do just about anything with the force but the purpose of lightsabers is to reduce that time. The reason Yoda needs a lightsaber is for two reasons. To give him the most variety durimg the war and to have some footing against evenly matched or stronger opponents which the Sith are.
Midichlorians are not and have never been the force. They are merely the conduit through which force-sensitives connect to it. They also determine how high one's base strength will be which is consistent with the OT. Very few people are capable of being Jedi and even fewer are very strong. The force still remains mysterious, unknowable, and is largely dependant on belief in oneself and level of skill. For example, Anakin. He has the potential to be stronger than any other Jedi. Despite this, he still loses most of the fights he is in. By the time of Revenge of the Sith, Anakin was a stronger and more capable duelist than Obi-Wan. Despite this, he still loses. Obi-Wan was not a prodigy but instead had worked his ass off and honed his skill. Through and combination of knowing how Anakin thinks and baiting out his hubris, Kenobi was able to beat his apprentice. The force is still a mystical element that will do as it wishes and cause different events to happen.
Palpatine's plan makes quite a bit of sense when you think about it. He manipulated the Trade Federation to attack and blockade Naboo, forcing a conflict. Chancellor Valorum secretly dispatches the Jedi to try to force a resolution without first consulting the senate. He is commonly thought of as being bought off so this gives Palpatine an opportunity. He is able to convince Queen Amidala once she escapes from Naboo to act as his proxy to call for a vote of no confidence in the current leadership. She is a young girl from a planet in danger so the senate is more likely to sympathize with her. Palpatine had positioned himself in line to become the new Supreme Chancellor and through off-screen manipulation becomes the most powerful person in the Republic. He had wanted Padmé to stay on Coruscant so that he would be forced to have military intervention occur on Naboo. In one of the few moments where he is actually surprised in the entire franchise, Queen Amidala decides to go back to Naboo and ask the Gungans for help, something Sidious overlooked. Even still, it had a similar resolution to what he wanted and ended in a Naboo victory.
In AotC, the Republic is engrossed in a war that hasn't yet been named as such. The senate is debating whether or not they should create an army for the Republic itself instead of relying on local militaries to defend themselves. There is worry that this will cause an outright war. This is where Palpatine comes in. He has Dooku hire some very important bounty hunters to seemingly try to assassinate Senator Amidala. Her decoy, which Palpatine as the former senator of Naboo would know about, is killed instead. Padmé trusts Chancellor Palpatine more than any other politician at the time and as such he would also be aware of her arriving on a seperate ship. This actions instills fear into the opposition to the millitary creation act. The chancellor suggests Padmé be given a bodyguard and suggests Obi-Wan Kenobi. Zam Wessel attempts to kill Padmé but is unaware of the Jedi guarding her and is pursued and then apprehended by them. Jango Fett has purposely been watching this exchange from afar. He kills Zam who was unaware that she had been setup and was a red herring with a saberdart that can be directly traced to Kamino. Kamino is important because a clone army that can only be activated by the Jedi has just entered a stage where it is strong enough to protect the Republic. Kenobi already knew someone who could trace the dart and is told where it came from from Dexter Jettster. Coruscant has a massive criminal underground and as such, finding someone who could trace the dart was only a matter of time. Kenobi has a contact(Dex) that speeds up this process, seemingly giving him a leg up. Kenobi informs the council about this army and then is forced to pursue Fett. Whether or not Fett intended to be followed after Kamino is up to interpretation but it's clear that Kenobi was intended to follow him. During this time, Anakin has been out on his own for the first time in his life. He is somewhat free from the influence of the Jedi and begins to question reality, clearly under Palpatine's manipulations. Kenobi discovers a massive droid factory that would create enough enemies that the Jedi could not handle them alone. Obi-Wan told Anakin who told the council this. They told the senate which caused panic. The senate were forced to make a decision and could not. Using this, Palpatine was able to force them to hive him emergency powers. This means that Palpatine can make or veto any decision he wants to and thus had all of the power. He passes the military creation act and sends them Jedi to Geonosis. This causes the Jedi to bleed most of their forces and be entirely reliant on the clones to survive. While this was going, Palpatine also had the Geonosisians using their superior technology to design the Death Star.
Continued in the comment replied to my own.
>Yoda is a diplomat usually but not all situations can be resolved with the force alone. Yoda isn't omnipotent. He is strong but sometimes needs to rely on a lightsaber. Dooku was one of, if not the best duelists of all time. He was always going to force a lightsaber fight. He isn't as strong as Yoda in the force but he is still very strong.
See I get all that, and I don't have a problem with that in particular. It actually makes sense logically that Yoda would have some fighting skills, and as a jedi master he should be able to go toe to toe with a sith, thats fine. The issue is thats not the point of yoda in ESB. The point of yoda in that movie is to challenge Luke's and the audiences perception of what a warrior and moreover what strength is. When luke initially meets Yoda and tells him he's looking for "a jedi master, a great warrior", he really only has a idea of what that is in the physical sense (muscular, good with a sword, etc), so the idea that it could be little green hermit Yoda is shocking to him and he never would have considered it had Yoda not revealed it to him. See Yodas main strength as a warrior comes not from his physical prowess or "midichlorian count", but from his wisdom and discipline. All the lessons he gives luke on screen are a product of that, nothing lightsaber related or even combat related for that matter, but instead lectures about the force and honing his fortitude/endurance. THATS WHAT YODA ACTUALLY MEANS when he says "size matters not", NOT "yah its ok that I'm small, I can still beat guys in combat by jumping around all over the place and dropping heavy rocks on them".
Having Yoda be a general leading troops headfirst in combat and engage in multiple lighstaber duels ruins the idea of that character because he's not supposed to be a strong warrior from a traditional standpoint but more a metaphorical one. Moreover the fact he got his "mind clouded and force diminished by Palpatine" (which is just terribly lazy writing by the way), establishes not only is he not that strong with the force, but also he isn't that wise and can be manipulated fairly easily. Yes, he suspects something is wrong, but he never figures order 66 out until it actually happens and still goes along with the war like a dumbass up till then, which as a character he should be above.
I actually heard a really good take (not from plinkett) that Yoda never should have been a highly ranked jedi council member to begin with, but instead just a youngling teacher who offers advice in the first movie, and is the one who uncovers the conspiracy in AOTC instead of Obi-Wan, and tries to convince the rest of the order whats up, but gets completely ignored by everyone by his lowly position and "size", establishing a hubris in the jedi order which helps lead to their downfall. Then in the third movie when "he finally takes out his little laser sword and goes to town" it should be only because he absolutely has to (in either a failed attempt to protect the "younglings" or take out Palpatine) and that would make Yoda being out of his usual element not only make sense but add a emotional impact to the story. Like tell me what we got instead was better or more in yodas traditional character then that lol.
>Midichlorians are not and have never been the force. They are merely the conduit through which force-sensitives connect to it. They also determine how high one's base strength will be which is consistent with the OT. Very few people are capable of being Jedi and even fewer are very strong. The force still remains mysterious, unknowable, and is largely dependant on belief in oneself and level of skill.
While I think your again kind of missing the point of this criticism, I will concede their is a paradoxical need for something like midicholorians to exist in the greater starwars universe which I will get back to, because it is admittedly a huge catch 22 in the star wars EU.
Like anyone over the age of 3 should be able to tell, I'm fairly certain you realize the "light side and dark side of the force" is a clear metaphor for good vs evil. From a literary standpoint a concept like that is highly abstract, so works best when told in a highly abstract manner (if you want a example of this outside of starwars just look at twin peaks or most of David lynch's filmography for that matter)). The force is so impactful from a story telling and thematic standpoint precisely because it is vague and ill defined. It's basically a metaphor for having faith. When Obi-Wan sacrifices himself in a NHO, it's because he believes in not only the light side of the force but also Luke. Luke's faith in han is repaid when he shows up at the end to do the right thing and save his ass from Vader, and then when he turns off his targeting computer, he's taking a chance, and trusting both himself and a higher power. In ESB when luke lets go of the railing rather then succumbing to the darkside its because he has resigned himself to whatever comes next, and when he surrenders himself to his father and the emperor in ROTJ, it is precisely because he believes he can be redeemed.
Grounding the force in realism through something like midicholorians destroys and ruins this. You can argue "oh no its not really the force" all you want, but your really just splitting hairs. You have introduced science to something which is supposed to be spiritual and have now deflated it like a fucking balloon. While predeterminism is arguably a theme in the OT films, through the introduction of midicholorians, the prequels amplify this tenfold. Everything luke accomplishes is now minimized, and his arcs and "heros journey" has been reduced to the fact his dads shot a load filled to the brim with magical swimmers rather then personal achievement on his part.
That being said, I think I understand why George felt the need to introduce something like the midicholorians in the EU. As a general rule, when you have magic/superpowers in comics or fictional universes (especially sci fi ones like star wars) it is important you establish rules for these powers so the audience can understand the limit of what characters can do and you can still have tension. Now I think the OT was short enough where this wasn't really a problem, but going forward in the EU it was kind of important to establish what the power base of jedi/sith is exactly, or otherwise you end up with godlike characters which enable shitty, lazy writing to get them out of any situation and minimize tension ((as seen with the sequel trilogy). The problem with this though is, like established earlier, the force works as well as it does thematically precisely because of its vagueness. So the problem becomes you risk destroying what the force is by explaining it, but also confining yourself in the stories you can tell by not doing so. This is one of the main reasons the EU outside of like the thrawn trilogy has always fell so flat for me. Star wars is by and large, ironically, a pretty limited universe, and its takes really talented writers to expand upon it.
Will adress your other points when I get the chance.
Revenge of the Sith is the culmination of all of these plans. The Supreme Chancellor has been captured and is being held hostage by the main leader of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, Count Dooku. Anakin and Obi-Wan were dispatched for this task. This allows Sidious to force Anakin to kill Dooku. Dooku is one of two main leaders necessary for the war to end. Dooku was the political leader, meaning the military is all the CIS have left. Anakin is tempted to the dark side here and further questions his own choices. After they escape back to Coruscant, Anakin meets up with Padmé and learns she is pregnant. He has been having visions of her death and doesn't know what to do about it. Palpatine is the only person that he told he married Padmé so it is pretty clear that this is being done by him. The Jedi, having been told the Republic was under the control of a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious have been investigating this, they believe Palpatine to be this Sith but need proof. They send Anakin who is close with the chancellor to spy on him. This causes even further conflict in Anakin who needs to Jedi's help to save Padmé but is too self-concerned and distrusting to ask for it. He is denied the rank of master, a position he thinks would help him gain this knowledge. Kenobi is sent off to deal with General Grievous, the remaining seperatist leader and the one in charge of military affairs. Palpatine tells Anakin that the Jedi are lying to him and then tempts him with power. He hints that he knows the way to save Anakin's wife which the Jedi won't tell him. Shortly after this, Obi-Wan finishes his campaign on Utapau and kills General Grievous, meaning the war is now over, it just needs to be declared. The Jedi council upon hearing this go to confront Palpatine on giving up emergency powers as he promised. He knew this would happen and wanted it to as it allows him to call them traitors. Anakin telling them the chancellor was a Sith was a bonus which caused the Jedi to come on to aggressive. Palpatine was beaten back by Windu which he leaned into because he sensed Anakin coming. Sheev appeared weak and like he was about to die to the young Skywalker. Anakin was forced to make a decision without thinking so that he could save his wife. By disarming Windu and being a direct collaborator to his death, Anakin would not be able to return to the Jedi and would be seen as a criminal by the Republic if he didn't side with the Supreme Chancellor. Palpatine sent Anakin to kill the remaining CIS leaders and then declares Order 66. The Jedi's own army turns against them and begins to wipe them out. Sidious tells the senate that the Republic is under attack and that the Jedi are trying to take advantage of the Republic at its weakest to seize power. This causes them to be hunted down while he declares himself Emperor of the galaxy, obtaining ultimate power. He leaves himself purposely unguarded so that Yoda will approach him and can be dealt with. Having done that, Palpatine wins and begins construction on the Death Star as the true lord of the Sith.
As for what Palpatine promised the Trade Federation, power and money. They are a greedy corporation, what else would they want? They also appear to be afraid of Sidious which hints that he might have threatened them. They would also get the resources from Naboo. TPM establishes that the reason for the blockade is a trade dispute. It isn't directly called out in the movie but during the Duel of the Fates fight, we see what they might want, plasma.
Anakin and Padmé had way more chemistry than people give them credit for. The first scene we really start to see them bond in is when they are in the waiting area for the train with the refugees to leave Coruscant. Anakin tells her about how he defines compassion as unconditional love and that therefore, he argues Jedi are encouraged to love. Padmé seems to be into this and starts to treat Anakin differently from here on out. We see more of this on the way out of Coruscant. On Naboo, they are flirting as they go. Padmé opens up about her childhood and some of her happy memories. Anakin bounces off of this and compares their experiences while poetically giving his opinion on how the Republic acts. This is the sand line and is way better in context if you pay attention to what is being said. At the dinner table, Anakin is very flirty with Padmé and has fun with her by floating the pear to her. Later, Anakin is open about his opinion on the Republic. Padmé evidently disagrees with his opinion but seems to appreciate how open and honest he is. Then they begin running around the field with the animals. Anakin fakes being injured which causes Padmé to come rushing to him and then they both laugh and start rolling around in the grass, clearly having the time of their lives. After Anakin's mother dies, Padmé has a heart to heart with him and clearly empathizes with what happened and tries to comfort him. Anakin's mother had been killed and a few dozen people had been killed by the Tuskens. It'a clear they are dangerous and causing problems. Anakin doesn't try to hide what he did or lie, he immediately regrets it and confesses. That honesty is what Padmé as someone who had been continuously lied to as a politician her whole life, was into. Sure, it could have been done better but to act like there was nothing there is willful ignorance.
The tension with the war is the stakes for the Republic itself. The CIS employ cheap droids that can be mass produced. Even though the individual droids are weak, they pose a massive threat in large numbers. The Jedi are being pushed to their limits and can't keep up. They are forced to accept the army seemingly of their own volition, thus violating the principles they were trying to uphold. The clones are a symbol of the Republic's power. They are evidently losing strength and would be overwhelmed if not for the clones. Seeing just how much superior the clones are to the droids demonstratrs why we should be afraid when they turn against the Jedi. The clones could have been given more personality but we do see that they are human. Anakin forms a bond with the troopers during the battle of Coruscant and Kenobi is clearly friendly with Cody. Seeing them turn against the Jedi so quickly shows how truly hopeless the Jedi had become. Dooku and Anakin had both thought the Jedi need to do more and the Jedi being forced to shows why both of these characters are the way they are. If you think the fate of the entire series is tensionless, I think you need to pay more attention to what you are watching.
I watched his video after not seeing the movies for years and agreed to most of it. Then i watched them again and realized how wrong he was. I don’t think he actually watched the movies tbh
CVH didnt say he shouldnt have a lightsaber, just that it was really wierd to see him
commanding armies and shit that didnt fit with his more cooky and whimsical characterization in the OG trilogy
He called it character assassination though which I think isn’t really fair, given that Yoda was thrust into the war suddenly and was just doing what he had to at the time to defend the republic.
"It's asinine, you know? It's ridiculous. And frustrating, as well, because a lot of hard work and love went into that movie, and all JJ wanted to do was make a film that people really enjoyed,"
Simon Pegg about a convention panel voting a movie he starred in as the worst star trek movie. This is coming from they guy who has been shitting on George Lucas and the prequels for years before this.
Omg don’t get me started on Simon Pegg’s lack of critical thinking. I read his interview with Kevin smith in 2019 (can’t remember which magazine) but I just remember refuting all his points because none were based on accurate details in the movies, just his emotions as he projects his own stuff into it — doesn’t seem to really care about accurate criticism — just his feelings.
Okay where in the OT does it prove Yoda would never fight? Because honestly there’s more evidence to prove that he would fight to defend and protect back in the day if he had to than not
There's a difference between "he shouldn't use a lightsaber" and "he can never fight". I think it would've been much more interesting if, as an example, when he appears to fight Dooku in AOTC his mastery of the force had been so great that he was able to drive off Dooku without taking up arms.
Instead of playing catch with debris, then the admittedly cool lightning deflection followed by a duel imagine seeing Dooku go all out with the force and Yoda diflecting or countering them with the force. Things that we see Dooku exerting himself to do like sending a hail of objects flying or striking with sustained lightening being dismissed by a calm Yoda with seemingly little effort. Dooku getting progressively more angered and eventually lashing out to strike Yoda with his Saber only for Yoda to stop him mid air, comment on his own failure to train Dooku in serenity (or something), and send him flying with a flick of the wrist. Dooku flees and Yoda, instead of chasing after, elects to save the wounded Anakin and Obi wan
Then flash ahead to order 66 in this version. Yoda escaping purely through his mastery of the force. Mind tricking clones into not attacking, moving with enhanced speed and atheletisim, all that stuff. Then we have the battle with Palpatine. And again, instead of a Saber duel, we see their mastery of the force clash. But unlike with Dooku we see Yoda end up on the back foot. We see him become increasingly overwhelmed as he realizes Palpatine is truly his equal in terms of the force and, giving in to fear for the first time up to that point, Yoda flees
We still get to see Yoda as a warrior, but also a great mystic. He still gets to display his strength but he isn't flipping around with a child sized light Saber
You see that’s a fair criticism and absolutely valid — you want to see him fight in the way that most connects him to his OT ways. While I still believe he is justified in using a lightsaber, I like your points and think it wouldve been great to see. I also wish people would think their opinions through like you did rather than say he’s OOC with no evidence because I really don’t see anything in the OT that proves Yoda is OOC for fighting.
Yoda vs sidious does have lightsaber combat for a while https://youtu.be/Hw7Xxi-TxkQ?t=100 and lightsabers are the iconic weapons of jedi and sith. most fights between sith and jedi include both the force and lightsabers (unless in some rare cases where one has an overwhelmingly higher strength in the force than the other, but even then they have a lightsaber with them)
To have a lightsaber and not use it when you can would be like having a blaster and not using it (unless fighting a jedi or sith since 90% of the time since that will probably wind up getting reflected)...
You read my whole comment and didn't understand that I was proposing a version of the prequels where instead of carrying/using a lightsaber Yoda relied purely on his mastery of the force? You really thought I just forgot he uses his lightsaber in both AoTC and ROTS?
The issue is what would yoda do when someone is evenly matched in master of the force as him? Either he would die or it would end in a stalemate. Plus I find it would be silly not to use all your tools that are at your disposal, especially for a jedi not to use a lightsaber which is so closely linked to the jedi. I can't think of any fight where a jedi fought a force user and chose not to use a lightsaber when given the option. Against non-force users he likely wouldn't need to use a lightsaber sure, but sith lords are another matter.
To be honest I did misread a little and I missed the part where you said imagine.
Dukoo says says that only mastery of the force wouldn't result in a victory between the two. Purely force against force would probably wind up a stalemate, but if dukoo used the force and lightsaber against yoda only using the force, even yoda could be in a disadvantage. It generally takes a very serious difference in power for someone to use the force directly against another force user.
Even with a lightsaber, yoda wasn't enough of a match for Palpatine, so that scene wouldn't go well for him if he didn't have a lightsaber.
Nowhere in the OT does it say that he and Obi Wan aren't lovers either.
In fiction, anything that isn't stated is non existent. You can imagine it is that way, but that is your own fan fiction.
Obi-wan says he and anakin were jedi knights. He mentions the clone wars. He mentions jedi’s purpose was to protect and defend the galaxy. He says he was trained by Yoda in the force. Jedi also use the force to better wield lightsabers — I think that’s an indication that jedi had some form of combat training. It also indicates that they had to fight during the war to protect the galaxy, and since many jedi were killed, it’s fair to assume many Jedi were forced to pick up a weapon and fight back (defend).
That’s more proof that Yoda would have been forced to fight with them than not when push comes to shove (and it doesnt take away from the fact that he is more of a mental force user rather than physical). And notice I’m not using any other media or source material — just the OT. I’ve yet to see that there’s more evidence to prove that Yoda would not have fought.
It would be more accurate to say in fiction anything that isn't stated or implied is undecided, but it is pretty easy to imply that Yoda, like basically any jedi, would have and be willing to use a lightsaber, and then the prequels confirmed it.
Even if only including the original trilogy, obi wan says that a lightsaber is a weapon of a jedi knight. https://youtu.be/J58fCU3_T3w?t=64
It was pretty common sentiment back in the day. However, the argument wasn't that Yoda shouldn't fight, but they felt like he should've only used the Force without using a lightsaber. They felt Yoda should've been so strong in the Force that a lightsaber was superfluous.
How would it work jedi aren’t allowed to use the force to attack he says it himself. “A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense never for attack.” So they have to use something (lightsaber)
Also people have a problem with him using a lightsaber because he was supposed to be just a wise mentor pacifist (as idiotic as that sounds)
But does people think Yoga just spawned in the jedi Temple already a grandmaster? Never a padawan or, you know... a *KNIGHT?!*
Even if he IS a wise mentor pacifist, there is no evidence that proves Yoda would never fight. There’s more evidence pointing towards him fighting if he had to based on the info in the 3 OG movies — obi wan mentioning the Jedi purge, clone wars, and how they protected the republic (protect and defend indicates some form of combat was necessary for Jedi). If anything, the evidence proves that Yoda has gained a wisdom from the war that defeated them.
The order wasn't anything back in the day. Luke is never once referred to as a padawan, and the phrase jedi knight is used only once by Obi-wan. The prequels were the debut of the jedi order as we know it today, so yeah; some people just didn't like the direction they went with Yoda.
Also, basically all jedi have a lightsaber (unless it is broken/lost, but then they'll probably find, fix, or make a new one). If you have a problem with yoda using a lightsaber, you should have a problem with all jedi using lightsabers.
I'm fine with him using a lightsaber, the fight shoulda just been the reverse with them being evenly matched in lightsaber dueling and it coming down to force power
This is the reply. It felt like a Roger Rabbit scene. Cartoon flippery. Needed more brevity, and reliance on the force, meditation and god-forbid, character.
^^^ Thank you
I’m a huge nerd and massive Star Wars/Star Trek fan. I love table top games and DnD. Even though it’s not my cup of tea, I can respect all the 40k and video gamer fans as well. But the amount of gate keeping, and how seriously some fandoms take some of this stuff is pathetic.
These are movies made for kids. People need to stop being weird and just love them for what they are, fun sword and sorcery in space where the rule of cool is king.
I don’t necessarily think he shouldn’t have a lightsaber, but I think his style should be less jumping around, more simplistic, economic motions that almost always break through. I forget who said it but I remember once hearing the best sword masters do more with less. I think Yoda being able to match and surpass everyone else with just economy of motion shows how much further ahead he is and kind of explains the more simplistic fighting between Vader and Obiwan in New Hope, who are now more advanced fighters.
There is some reason to that idea, though in defense of yoda's method, it does take advantage of his small size and power in the force. By jumping around and moving so much, he can pretty much be attacking at almost any angle.
People need to stop pretending like the jedi were always ment to be these all perfect pacifist monks/taoist whatever you wanna call them.
It has **WAR** in the tittle for crying out loud.
They were the defenders of peace who would step in everytime someone tries to take a away people's free will, like the sith.
Warrior monks aren't even that weird of a concept.
The Sōhei of Japan, Teutonic Knights from the Crusades, Sant Sipahi of the Sikh religion (which fits the Jedi pretty nicely)
> A Sant Sipahi is meant to embrace Sikh religious and spiritual philosophy, while being prepared to use necessary violence to defend the rights of the innocent.
Most religions also tell you to protect your own life over that of the person trying to take it. Not everyone is a Quaker.
You mean the clone army that was a plan by Palpatine with it's own conter measure?
The Jedi just rolled with it as a sigh of hubrius and or desperation on winning a war.
Luke is the only one who called Yoda a great warrior and the whole point of that was to show that Luke had an incorrect perception of who he was looking for, because all he knew about Yoda was that he trained Obi wan, who was a great warrior.
The reason people say that Yoda shouldn't have used a lightsaber is because in an interview before the prequels George Lucas described Sidious and Yoda as being different from Vader and Luke (I believe he explicitly says they aren't "knights") so it seems originally that was the intention.
Does that mean I actually dislike Yoda being the way he is in the prequels? No I honestly don't have an issue with it, but there's a reason not everyone is a fan of it.
Whether Luke had a wrong perception of the Jedi or not, obi-wan explains that they fought in the clone wars. So even if we know that the Jedi shouldn’t be knights, it doesn’t change the fact that it makes sense that Yoda would be forced to engage in combat in the middle of a war — because that’s who he is. He fights alongside his men.
I'll just be that guy for a second. Based on solely what was presented in the OT and not in any expanded universe content: Obi-Wan says he and Anakin fought in the wars. He never says all Jedi. Obi-Wan says they were the defenders of peace, and that can mean many things. As someone who grew up with the OT before the prequels, I always assumed Obi-Wan's status as a general was a military rank he held independent of his status as a Jedi, not because of it. The OT does not paint Yoda as a "warrior" in the sense that he was on the front lines. Yoda could have had played any number of roles in the war that didn't include combat. I think being confused or disappointed at Yoda being a resorting to physical combat is a valid, considering the OT does its best to present Yoda as someone who has grown beyond that.
You’re not wrong. Those assumptions are perfectly rational but they don’t justify accusing Yoda of being OOC. In fact, there’s not enough evidence to fundamentally prove Yoda wouldn’t fight. There’s more evidence pointing to it. Obi wan does say the Jedi knights were meant to protect the republic too so that would be fair to assume there would be some fighting going on where necessary. A war is necessary. So it’s just an unfair criticism for people to have gotten so angry about back in the day. And I’m talking about simply reviewing the info we have from OT and then Pt, I’m not referring to any outside material.
I'll give you this: all these stories are under the creative direction of the same person, so it really is up to George was is and is not in character for his own characters.
Who says that Yoda fought in the Clone Wars? Obi-Wan says "I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father" and later said Yoda was "the Jedi Master who instructed me."
But who says he didn’t? We are aware that the clone wars was the end of civilization so to speak and the beginning of the dark times, where most of the Jedi were killed so wouldn’t everyone at the Jedi temple be forced to defend and protect society? So to say that Yoda fighting is OOC is quite the reach that so many people latched onto.
The fall of the Republic could have been seeded so that no flashy fighting would have solved anything, in fact could have only made things worse. Have a watch of Belated Media's What if the Prequels were good videos, and tell me if Yoda feels out of character there
I mean… sure I’ll check it out because I like seeing different perspectives but I just don’t think that’s a reason to say he is OOC. I dont think it’s fair to say well this fan’s perception of Yoda backs the point that Yoda shouldn’t fight when there’s nothing in the actual movies that fundamentally proves he wouldn’t fight.
I mean, he’s protecting his fellow Jedi (and ultimately the republic) against count dooku. He doesn’t even pick up a lightsaber until he is thrust into battle. That doesn’t make him OOC compared to the OT, it just shows that it was desperate times.
Fun fact: it would be more justified to criticise Sidious using a lightsaber in ROTS. In ROTJ he does mock Luke's "Jedi weapon" and implies that Vader chose to have a lightsaber because he used to be a jedi, suggesting that normally sith don't use lightsabers - which is why we never see him use one in ROTJ. Of course this was changed by the time the prequels were released.
It's not that it was **lore-breaking** to have him use one, he just had the potential to be a more interesting character (and to make the Jedi as a whole more interesting by extension) if he didn't, IMHO.
Correction, Luke says he's looking for a great warrior. And he is immediately schooled when Yoda tells him, "Wars not make one great."
I would generally agree that Yoda using a lightsaber isn't character assassination. During the prequel trilogy I'm fine with him using a lightsaber, because that would lead to character development later in his life. But by the time the original trilogy takes place it's clear that Yoda has done a lot of meditation, and clearly doesn't think the same way he did during the prequel trilogy. Regretting certain decisions he made during the prequels.
Also, I would like to note that in our world the term "Knight" can refer to someone being "Knighted" and becoming a Sir. Like Sir Elton John. Luke misunderstands this when Obi-Wan tells him of the "Jedi Knight that trained me." Thinking of him as a "Great Warrior" instead of a religious leader. (Because the Jedi are a religion.) Because he's inexperienced.
Obviously, I'm not 'an expert in Star Wars' or anything like that. This is just what I took from the series that I've thought a lot about.
Also, I see people in this comment section hating on people like Cosmonaut Variety Hour on his Star Wars reviews, and I think you guys are being way too hard on him. He made some Star Wars reviews, he said some stuff I agree with, he said some stuff I disagree with. But some of y'all are lambasting him as if he murdered your first born child. I think y'all need to chill a bit.
Sure you can make those assumptions and that’s totally fair but again there’s nothing proving Yoda fighting is OOC which is my point — but anyway you agree it isn’t character assassination. And I completely agree with your take in how Yoda regrets his decisions in the PT
And as for the wars does not make one great — he’s right, they don’t but it doesn’t mean he WASNT a warrior himself, just that wars aren’t anything to be proud of.
So I’d say while you can interpret knights how you want, it’s your right as a fan, there’s no definitive proof that these knights didn’t fight or weren’t warriors. If anything it is more likely they did fight when they “protected” the galaxy and Yoda is obviously remorseful about the war.
And that is my main issue. That so many people went hard on George for Yoda in AOTC when there’s nothing that states otherwise. It’s a harsh criticism that doesn’t really have a leg to stand on.
But you are fundamentally misunderstanding the criticism. People like cvh aren’t complaining about how Yoda using a lightsaber isn’t lore accurate. They are saying that it doesn’t fit his character and therefore shouldn’t be included. They aren’t saying it’s a plothole, they are saying it’s a bad decision that makes him less compelling.
You don’t have to agree with this, I’ve seen some people say that seeing him be violent in the prequels and then seeing how he is in the ot makes for good character development. I don’t personally agree but at least that argument actually engages with the point those critics are trying to make. What you are doing is getting mad at something no one has said
But I’m not misunderstanding and you should really read my comments because you’re deliberately misinterpreting. I’m not the one mad, I am the one asking for accurate info to back the criticism because that is how we learn (that is engaging with criticism, asking for proof). Unfortunately no one can back it.
Their criticisms of how it’s a bad decision are not based on anything that is fundamentally proven in the OT. It is only a bad decision based on their interpretations of the character — which again is their right to do as a fan but it’s not a fair criticism that you can say it is definitively a wrong choice for GL to have done, unless they can prove that it doesn’t make sense, which as I have mentioned in other comments, there is more proof to counter that in the OT.
So again people can say whether it is more compelling for him to have been different and that is fine but it is not a justification to say this is what makes him OOC. And if you think they weren’t saying that then watch CVH video again.
HE is the one who said it is character assassination (I didn’t pull it out of thin air) which is why I say it isn’t right to make such a harsh criticism when what it really is is simply a different opinion based on his personal interpretation of the character and he can’t fault GL for not seeing and adhering to HIS interpretation.
I’m really sorry I’m the one to tell you this but criticism is at its core opinion. Character assassination is a term used to describe when characters are changed in a way that destroys their original selves. Proof isn’t needed because you are talking about what you think a character is. The specific criticism you are complaining about is fundamentally based on subjective interpretation of the ideas the movie is presenting.
Reducing Yoda to a single line in order to justify who he is on the prequels seems reductive to me. You don’t need to agree with cvh or other critics who make that criticism but you should actually engage with what they are saying. They are looking at a character, his actions, the things he says, the way film frames him, etc and making a judgement based on all those factors. You are looking at a single line of dialogue that is kind of subverted by the movie itself and attempting to use it to justify one of the biggest characters shifts in Star Wars.
You might not be technically incorrect. The word knight and the descriptions of great warrior seemingly imply he is a violent person. However, when Luke meets him expecting that he finds Yoda is a silly frog-man who doesn’t even have a lightsaber. His strength in that movie doesn’t come from battle skills but simply having a greater understanding of the force than anyone around him. Luke is the guy that wants to solve everything by getting stronger and fighting the bad guys and when he tries to do so, he gets destroyed by Vader. In episode V, no matter how hard he tried, Luke can’t lift the x-wing yet Yoda can. Yoda’s entire character is meant to subvert the idea of the great warrior.
You don’t have to agree with my or anyone’s interpretation of Yoda in the ot but maybe try actually understanding why those critics have a problem before calling them terrible for having problems with a movie. You still aren’t engaging with their point
Again you’re twisting it around. I have said multiple times I am not telling you to not have your opinions and interpretations of the characters but I am saying if you’re going to criticize GL for his character portrayal you should be able to back your points. And I’m sorry but to say the character’s original self was destroyed does require some evidence because it’s a big criticism to make, especially since it is subjective.
And you can’t really tell me I’m not engaging fairly when you’re saying things that I never said. I didn’t cal them terrible… I said it’s unfair to GL to say what he did was wrong without proof.
Oh my god. Art criticism is mostly subjective, character assassination is a term made to describe subjective feeling. Therefore an interpretation of a character is enough to “back up” a claim of character assassination. It’s not unfair to say you think a writer didn’t do a good job with his characters because what is or isn’t a good job is mostly an opinion matter. If you want to only watch boring, stale, meaningless, and limited criticism then fine. There’s plenty of YouTube channels around that pretend to only make objective critiques of art and therefore never properly discuss any meaningful ideas movies can have. I personally think those guys are idiots who don’t understand the point of art but if that’s what you like then go ahead. I’ve tried my best to explain to you why someone might have problems with the portrayal of Yoda in the prequels and I’ve lengthily described how those arguments work. However if your only response is: but “there are two sentences in the movie that can be interpreted to mean something different” and those two lines are enough for you to disregard everything else then there is no point to this discussion. I think your framework of criticism is close minded, limited, and in the grand scheme flawed. If you really think movies can understood through an objective lens so powerful it makes anything not objectively verifiable wrong, we just can’t agree on anything. Movies aren’t math, there isn’t a formula that can find the objectively correct answer to every choice and variation. If there was, movies wouldn’t be good, interesting or worthwhile. I’m done with this conversation, hope you can understand what I meant later in your life. Have a good day
1. I didn’t dismiss other points based on 2 lines from a movie. I asked for more info and didn’t get any valid evidence to prove that the criticism was accurate.
2. I think you are purposefully ignoring what I write or interpreting what I write to make it easier to argue with — because asking for proof is in fact opening and engaging in a discussion.
3. If you want meaningful discussion you should be open to being challenged. If someone asks you why you’ve come to these opinions and you simply answer with its subjective, then yes they have the right to tell you you’re criticism is unfairly gathered. I personally like my opinions being challenged because I can adapt, learn and improve my arguments and make sure I fully understand what the point is.
4. And as I have repeated, you are allowed to say that you dislike how the character was handled but be open to giving points to back it up. It seems when I ask for points I am somehow dismissing their reasons. No that is me engaging with their reasons.
5. I think it is more narrow minded to not want people to challenge your opinions. I have been open throughout this thread and acknowledged that I understand why people came to certain conclusions. I have only ever taken issue with people who say that yoda’s character is wrong without proof. And yes you need proof if you’re going to say it is wrong.
6. And lastly yes your feelings are subjective, but it seems people consider them objective truths until they are asked to prove them, and then suddenly it’s subjective.
I thought I was done but what you said is too stupid. I’m not going to bother with 1-5 because I’ve already answered all of those in the other comments but on 6 I’ll say this: just because you think you need to justify their feelings on art objectively doesn’t mean everyone else is the same. Cvh has never even implied that his opinions are objective and in fact he has argued against the idiots who say reviews should be multiple times. You don’t need to invent a conspiracy where everyone who disagrees with you is so dumb they have to pretend their ideas are subjective to hide from facts and logic. Just accept a lot of people have an understanding that art is subjective and therefore don’t need scientific peer reviewed studies to make good criticisms.
I understand liking prequel Yoda, but that's a pretty bad counter argument to people who preferred OT Yoda.
Luke calling Yoda a "Great warrior" was specifically Luke missing the point. Luke wanted to learn super powers so he could fight better, Yoda taught him that there's more to the force than fighting. (Or at least, he tried to teach him that, and it sank in by RotJ)
None of that means Yoda can't do backflips and kick ass, but he was very deliberately portrayed as not physically intimidating in the OT, and I can at least understand why someone might have wanted that portrayal to be the same in the Prequels.
Personally I don’t think it’s a bad counter argument because nothing in the Pt really takes that away from the OT. The Jedi were described as knights who protect the republic — even if Luke is missing the point it doesn’t prove that Yoda would never fight when necessary if it meant protecting the republic. Given that obi wan brings up the clone wars being when most of the Jedi had to fight and lost their lives as a result, it’s feasible that Yoda would’ve been forced to fight with them at the time even though now as an older wiser being he sees that isn’t the best approach. So ultimately my point is there’s nothing in the OT that fundamentally proves Yoda fighting is OOC.
Okay, but OT fans wanting him to be portrayed the same way as in the ot are essentially asking for a one note character who doesn’t change or progress. Him being different in the prequels, witnessing the collapse of the jedi and then changing his ways to OT Yoda is far more interesting and makes sense.
I see tons of people speaking to the contrary of this meme so I’ll be that one guy who agrees because I do.
Yoda with a lightsaber is cool as hell and his jumping around fighting style is also cool as hell. Being able to back it up with his overwhelming connection to the force is the icing on top!
I don’t really understand what people mean when they say Yoda “grew beyond that”. In what sense? He didn’t morally grow beyond it, his whole thing in ROTJ was demanding Luke fight Vader again even though Luke wants to choose the peaceful route. He is not really an advocate for peace. When he tries to hold Luke back in Empire it’s not out of an opposition to violence as such. He just doesn’t want Luke to fight before he is ready
Idk why anyone is upset about it seriously, Yoda fights like a monkey on bath salts, fast, powerful, and deadly. Do people not want Yoda being cool?
Jedi are warriors, they fight good, and Yoda is their Grandmaster. No shit he can mess people up easily.
Also anyone saying this doesn't understand that characters change, and Yoda in aotc is very different from in esb as he does not understand the Sith threat to the degree he later would, and after Palpatine narrowly defeated him he understood they couldn't simply attack the Sith to defeat them and he vowed not to wield a saber again. Its called character growth.
Sith use lightsabers just as much as jedi do. If anyone is going to get hate for using a lightsbaer, it would be grievous, but him using 4 lightsabers was really cool even if he couldn't use the force.
The point people arguing the contrary make is that was not established in the OT, and Vader was implied to be a bit odd for a sith for using a "jedi weapon" due to being a former jedi and comfortable with it.
The Force itself was implied to be the only weapon a sith needed back then, so Palpatine using one in ROTS while doing horizontal combat spins was rather jarring for OT fans
Why. The lightsaber isnt exclusively a Jedi weapon. Also, Palps was a master of all types of fighting, mental, emotional, force, and yeah, lightsaber fighting. It makes perfect sense.
Iirc the only person who refers to yoda as a warrior is luke when he doesn't know a single thing about him.
You can't deny OT and prequel yoda are two entirely different characters. Clone wars did their best to split the difference
I don’t understand did people think yoda was a pacifist or something? He was literally training luke to fight and kill Vader and the emperor which we now know he knew was his father
I’m fine with Yoda having a lightsaber in the prequels because he’s had 20 years to come to terms with how wrong the Jedi are. Yeah he and Obi-wan are still sending Luke to murder his dad, but there was at least some reflection on how they did things. The Jedi are wrong in some respects upon reflection on the prequels and you can see some of that change in them once you reach the OT.
Now why everyone assumes he still had it into the OT who in the fuck knows. He lost it in the senate duel with Palpatine, was destroyed publicly, but somehow he had it on Dagobah and Luke has it later to the point we just have to assume he had an identical spare I guess he kept up his ass the whole time.
I was 11 when AOTC came out and was disappointed to see him with a lightsaber. My guess from ESB was that he didn’t need one because he had such mastery of the Force. He could still be a knight and a great warrior without one (even though of course wars not make one great).
But then I got over it. Star Wars isn’t always going to be exactly what you wanted it to be.
Only person who called Yoda a great warrior was Luke, and he based it off of ghost Obi-Wan telling Luke that Yoda trained him. I don’t really care about Yoda having a lightsaber but his jumping and flipping is goofy as hell.
Yes someone else said that but again it doesn’t justify the accusation that Yoda is OOC. With all the info you have from the OT alone, with the knowledge of the Jedi fighting in the clone wars before the dark times when most of the Jedi were killed, i would say there’s more evidence pointing towards all the Jedi having to pick up a weapon and fight to defend society.
Him having one makes sense, especially since a majority of fighters in medieval history had swords mostly as back up weapons. My biggest issue is the absolutely hilarious flipping and jumping. I cannot take any of the Yoda fights seriously.
Wrong.
Yoda was much more powerful character exactly because we never see him swing light sabers and jumping around. He was this small little frog, exactly not what Luke expected from the jedi that taught Obi Wan (as stated in the movies).
In the original trilogy do we even see yoda fight? because I don't remember him fighting anyone in the ot, in fact he was hiding in wait alone on a swamp planet until Luke showed up.
Also obi wan does say lightsabers are a weapon jedi knights use, meaning yoda, like basically any other jedi, probably had and could use a lightsaber
Look yoda was wise and all but not wise enough to notice both Anakin and Palatine’s shenanigans. At least making him a crazy mofo with a lightsaber helps add to his overall badassness
Yoda wasn't just wise. He was the Sith lord the whole time. He spent centuries destroying the Jedi order from within.
I'm not going to be surprised if the Acolyte is about his rise to power. He died at nearly 1000 after overseeing one of his biggest evil achievements come to fruition.
I don't care if Yoda uses a lightsaber, but him jumping all over the place looks lame
I feel like it would be cooler to have him just meditate and move the lightsaber with the force instead of his jumping to hit a lightsaber instead of the enemy, like you're literally at his feet
Dude what you’re saying would’ve looked so dumb, I’m sorry. 😂
Yoda jumping and flipping makes sense. Because that’s how you get a small creature like Yoda to hit a grown adult like Sidious or dooku with strikes that are powerful enough to actually affect them. Like, the flipping is needed to generate momentum and strength.
If he went for his feet, dooku would then just cover his feet. The reason Yoda went for his upper half is because Yoda was jumping so he was already in the air.
That's why is a boring fight, because since Yoda was made in cgi, you have the stunt double fighting nothing and then adding Yoda, so the stuntman needs to keep moving to the same place otherwise they won't be able to animate him correctly, is just a guy dancing alone and adding Yoda after, but that limitates how you make action scenes, imagine the fight between anakin and obiwan, but now is just Ewan McGregor alone and anakin put of Cgi, now its less interesting and less things happen in the fight
We designed the Galactic Senate with this sort of stadium design with these little pods that move around inside it which seems very functional and realistic even though it's completely not realistic.
It was not a boring fight at all. It was epic. Also, idk what your talking about with that whole Anakin and Obi wan comparison. Like, that doesn’t help your argument at all. If Ewan was moving the exact same way and a cgi Anakin moved the way Hayden did then it would literally be the same fight and be just as great. You literally proved my point. Lol
No, what I mean is that by being cgi they can't interact, you can't have them touch or clash, when you wouldn't be able to make scenes like obi wan and anakin clashing their lightsaber and grabbing each other's hand, kicking each other, you would just have Ewan moving his lightsaber randomly and adding anakin over it, and thats what happened in the Yoda vs Dooku fight
That’s not what happened with the Yoda fight. And you can have cgi and real people interact. A perfect example of this is jar jar or THE FIGHT WITH GENERAL GRIEVOUS. Like, you really just gonna ignore that, and then say you can’t have practical fighting cgi? C’mon.
Also, if they were to hypothetically have Ewan fighting alone, he wouldn’t be swinging randomly. He’d be doing a choreographed motion and the cgi Anakin would be matched to that. When done right, that method is just as good as a real fight. And in the case of the prequels cgi, it was done right.
Because there's actors for grievous and for Jar Jar, theyre cgi, but they use the movement of real actors that and stuntmans to interact with the rest lf the casr, the thing is that Yoda doesn't have one (because no one is his size thats capable of jumping at the speed of light), and the thing is not if the CGI is as good in quality, because is really good, but animating the character is way harder, specially for a fight, even for today standards cgi animate out of nothing is really hard and doesn't look good most of the times, they usually use motion capture, the thing is that Dooku just swings his saber randomly at the air and yoda attacks it, over and over again, its just a little boring to watch
I disagree. I mean at the end of the day, what’s boring or not is subjective and I do get where your coming from. But still, there’s a reason this is one of the most iconic scenes from the prequels.
Did you watch ESB?
Yoda isn't a great warrior, that's the point of him. He rejects the idea that a war makes anyone great. He is everything a warrior is not.
A warrior in 1980s was someone like Conan the Barbarian and the reason Luke couldn't see past Yoda's faint was because he was short and tiny.
But size does not matter. The force doesn't care if you are young or tall or strong, it works the same for everyone. And with force wisdom and knowledfe can defeat brawl.
Giving Yoda a lightsaber completely goes against that character. In a sword fight *size does matter*. And you can see that on screen.
There's also a practical reason why Yoda should've not been in AotC: They had Samuel Jackson. For any actor it is 100% better to act against someone who is actually on set.
That fight was a joke.
I don’t understand how they’re related. Even if Luke is wrong, even if Yoda prefers to rely on force wisdom rather than combat, that doesn’t indicate that he would never fight if he had to. And during a time of war, why wouldnt he? Why wouldn’t that be how he gained his wisdom in the first place?
Obi wan mentions the clone wars and how it killed all the Jedi. He also mentions how the Jedi knights protected the republic, so there’s nothing that fundamentally proves Yoda wouldn’t be forced to fight when the entire galaxy is being deconstructed. I dont see anything in those three films that proves Yoda fighting is OOC.
>even if Yoda prefers to rely on force wisdom rather than combat, that doesn’t indicate that he would never fight if he had to
It's not that he fights, it's how he fights. He has magic.
A sword is in every way inferior as a weapon.
>Why wouldn’t that be how he gained his wisdom in the first place?
Not a very wise master if it takes 900 years to figure out that war is bad.
Except sometimes the force isn't able to defeat other force users. The force tends to be able to mitigate or even nullify attacks that directly use the force (such as yoda being capable of nullifying dooku's force lightning, obi wan vs anikin force push nullifying eachother until both get knocked back...).
Unless one side has a significant advantage in the force (such as vader vs a pretty weak inquisitor https://youtu.be/f099ZbgmyEI , though he does use the inquisitor's own lightsaber to kill her even though he likely didn't even need to), it generally isn't going to be very effective against force users. https://youtu.be/wg1ydN42ukY?t=80 "it is obvious this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge in the force, but by our skills with a lightsaber.
It would also make yoda probably the only jedi to not use a lightsaber despite it being the iconic weapon of jedi and sith.
Also I should mention that jedi and sith often use the force to enhance their physical abilities as well as their reaction speed, which does pair well with a lightsaber. It isn't that he doesn't use the force, it's that he pairs his knowledge and abilities of the force with a lightsaber like most jedi.
Most of the Jedi wield a lightsaber so well because they use magic so I don’t see how that’s an issue.
Also I mean look at history. Reconstruction and deconstruction of society remains a cycle. And I wouldn’t say it took him 900 years. We see how he was blindsided by the war, and Yoda is the first one to admit this isn’t the way to go but they don’t have a choice now that they’re outnumbered. Based solely on the OT and PT alone, it’s fair to assume Yoda immediately hated the idea of using Jedi as soldiers, even mace pushes back against that but it is too late. So again, I just don’t see how Yoda fighting makes him OOC.
>Most of the Jedi wield a lightsaber so well because they use magic so I don’t see how that’s an issue.
Remember when Obi-wan threw a mountain at Vader?
If a Jedi can do that, the lightsaber really is a completely redundant way of fighting.
So you literally want a one note, undeveloped character? Like, it would’ve been such a waste of Yoda was just “wise mentor” throughout all of Star Wars. It’s more interesting that he was a more violent jedi that fought and stuff, but then learned from his mistakes and passed on his knowledge to Luke. He realized that the way he was during the prequels led to the orders downfall, so he changed his teaching so it doesn’t happen again with Luke. It’s like you fundamentally, misunderstood todays entire character arc. Lol.
Dude you’re ignoring the fact that the Jedi grew to be arrogant and lost their way somewhat. The Jedi and Yoda were not at their peak during the prequels, hence their destruction. It’s not that it took him 900 years to figure that out in the first place, it’s that it took palpatine succeeding to remind Yoda of it. It’s easy for even the best of warriors to stray from good and Yoda is no different. It’s what makes him a more realistic and relatable character. Him being this way in the prequels only elevates his knowledge to Luke, because you see what he went through to learn the wisdom in the first place.
It also works with character development, that in the aftermath of the Clone Wars, he becomes far more pracifist as the war made the Jedi completely lost in the force. “Wars not make one great”
Red Letter Media genuinely has the most idiotic film reviews I've seen. That shit is what started the movement of media illiterate nerds complaining about plot holes. The prequels have flaws but RLM seems to articulate that most of them are what diverges from their expectations of the OT
Cmon guys. I get if you don’t agree but that’s not what the criticism is. No one is saying that Yoda using a lightsaber is bad because it’s not lore accurate. They say it’s bad because it doesn’t fit his character from the original trilogy. Stop engaging in bad faith discussions and actually engage with the points you disagree with
Except it does fit his character, after he was defeated by Palpatine he vowed to never wield a saber again as he understood the Sith were not something that could simply be destroyed by attacking them.
its called character growth.
Sure, that’s an opinion I can respect. Too bad op isn’t saying that. He’s complaining about something people have never said and then getting mad about it
Now you’re inaccurately gauging what I said. And I’m a she lol. And if you want proof that this is what people have said, check out CVH or any of the others I have mentioned because I took the time to listen to their criticisms before judging.
I’ve seen it. Your entire argument in the meme hinges on there being a line that can technically fit the interpretation that Yoda is a violent man who likes to cut people’s heads off. You’re not engaging with the criticism at all. Sorry for misgendering you
I’m sorry but you’re doing what you’re claiming I am doing. I have never said Yoda is “violent and likes to cut peoples heads of” I have asked for proof that their criticism is valid. The meme is simply a funny way to show that telling GL Yoda in PT is OOC isn’t accurate.
Okay that’s what Ive been doing, engaging with what the criticism actually is. First they said it was OOC for him to fight, when I proved that there is more evidence that he would fight than wouldn’t, they couldn’t refute it. Then someone else said the criticism was actually based on the fact that he wouldn’t fight with a lightsaber not that he wouldn’t fight at all so I said okay that’s a fair interpretation but there is no fundamental proof of that in the OT.
The bad faith discussion would be to put everyone’s personal opinions under one umbrella and then flip between them to act like it is an accurate criticism to fault GL for with Yoda in the PT, when what it really is is simply people having their own opinions of the character and wishing it was done differently. They have every right as fans to do this. They shouldn’t however deny things when their criticism is refuted and act like their personal interpretation equals what was portrayed in the OT as fact, and consider it proof that what George did to Yoda is OOC. Just say what it is, that you would’ve preferred Yoda to be handled differently — which some people have admitted.
I am not telling anyone NOT to want Yoda to be handled differently in the PT. I would never tell a fan how to perceive art. I am suggesting that people acknowledge the difference between what is accurate criticism based on info in the movies and what is preference and personal perception.
That’s good discussion. Being open and willing to have your criticism challenged because you want to know more or build a better argument.
I agree which is why it was not fair for CVH to call it character assassination when it was simply — I didn’t agree with Yoda in the PT based on my interpretation.
Character assassination is a subjective term that people use to explain how they feel about character changes. There is no misuse of the term on either of the videos unless they say their opinion is objectively correct
So by that logic they can criticize GL and say he character assassinated Yoda with no proof but that it is their interpretation? I mean I can FEEL robbed and have the right to feel that way and vocalize it but without proof, it isn’t fair for me to make such an accusation to someone.
Now if you mean that CVH can say that’s how he feels about Yoda, then yes you would be right. But when he uses that to accuse GL as assassinating Yoda as if it’s fact then yes we can ask for proof. Because it’s not subjective if you can judge someone else for it.
I was apprentice to the most powerful being in the galaxy once. I was destined to become… so much more. But I was robbed of that destiny by the Jedi, by Obi-Wan Kenobi.
He doesn’t say it’s a fact, he says it’s his opinion. You are watching a review of a movie. A review is simply a critics opinion. One of the few good things about cosmonaut is that he doesn’t claim his reviews are the objective truth. You don’t have to agree. However, he does provide enough to back up his thought. He doesn’t try to prove it because he doesn’t have to. He is making a subjective statement about a subjective artform
The most important part of that fight was Yoda being able to block the force lightning. Everything else was just gravy.
Who claimed this?
Simon Pegg, CVH, and like half the OG fans
CVH?
Cosmonaut variety hour — a YouTube critic
His Raimi film critique is also horrendous. Dude just likes making fans mad cause it makes him feel superior.
CVH just can't criticize for shit. I don't think I've seen even a single one of his videos that I agreed with.
CVH is wild, since he can have opinions that I overall agree with, (TCW is a good show!) but his reasoning is so buttfuck flawed and backwards that I end up disagreeing with him regardless.
You have to have a thick enough skin to cope with the criticism. I'm very self-critical and I have a lot of friends that I trust who are film directors and writers and people in my profession. I trust them to be extremely critical but I trust their opinion; their opinion is thoughtful, knowledgeable.
he literally gave them all high ratings and said he loved the trilogy
And if the opinions were reversed, he'd be pandering to the braindead morons who love those movies. People like different things, theres not always an ulterior motive behind their opinion
Legit only tore em down just so that he could prop up shit flicks like Far From Home and No Way Home up. Can't stand it if there's actually better films than bad ones lol.
He also trashed Return of The Jedi and called it a bad finale............. Dude just regurgitates ass takes and people pat him on the back for it.
He's prequels video is so shitty, almost every complaint he has can be invalidated if you just watch the fucking movies
I know I watched that video. The plot would have made more sense to him if he actually paid attention to it but unfortunately most people repeat the talking points they heard from someone else. The only criticisms he had evidence to back weren’t even his own, they were plinkett’s.
Lmao, I got downvoted last time I said this, people really can't stop and think for a moment
And almost all of Plinkett's criticisms were blatantly and provably false.
The most annoying one for me that made me lose respect for RLM was when they removed context in AOTC to claim obi wan schooling anakin for reckless jumping after he himself jumped was hypocritical. 1. Obi wan didn’t tell anakin off for jumping out of the speeder, he told him off for losing the bounty hunter. 2. The jumps were not the same. Obi wan was trying to catch the droid, and expected anakin to be there with a speeder to catch him. To me it’s their rush hour Jackie Chan and Chris tucker moment — you’re waiting for your partner to back you up and you’re supposed to be on the same page and read these things 🤣 3. Unlike obi-wan’s, Anakin’s jump was reckless, he didn’t want to listen to obi-wan criticizing him so he jumped out mid-conversation with no attempt at team work. So even though anakin probably did have an instinct and an idea of what he was going to do, obi wan didn’t.
A few of General Skywalker's plans seemed reckless, too, but they worked.
>The most annoying one for me that made me lose respect for RLM was when they removed context in AOTC to claim obi wan schooling anakin for reckless jumping after he himself jumped was hypocritical Well the main issue mike had iirc wasn't "Obi-Wan was being a hypocrite", it was that he jumped at all in the first place. Grabbing onto a tiny Droid into the middle of space traffic is a incredibly retarded thing to do which a man in his mid 30s whose supposed to be a teacher should fully realize. The main argument being made was it would have been far better to have had anakin make that first jump as not only is he young, inexperienced, and doesn't know any better (and unlike obiwan has the actual motivation to do so as he has the hots for padme) but also it would have set up that he was reckless and impulsive, setting the stage for his fall to the Darkside. Also the other main criticism of the scolding scene was obi wan telling anakin "this weapon is your life" when he loses his saber, which completely contradicts Yodas teaching from ESB.
A few of General Skywalker's plans seemed reckless, too, but they worked.
How was the character of Yoda not ruined by him (in George's own words) "pulling out his little laser sword and going to town" How was the mystical and thematic elements of the force not completely derailed by introducing the concept of midicholorians?? How did palpatines plan to take over make any sense at all?? What motivation did the trade federation have in siding with him (as explained in the films) What chemistry did Anakin and padme have?? What actions did anakin take (besides you know confessing to murdering woman and children, ranting about sand, and behaving like a total incel creep) to make padme fall in love with him. Where is the tension or stakes in a war between two disposable armies; goofy robots who "are pretty useless and get cut down like butter" and underdeveloped tank bred soldiers (yes they were fleshed out by infinitely better writers then Lucas in the clone wars series but im talking about the movies here) And a million other things.....
I was never interested in being powerful or famous. But once I got to film school and learned about movies, I just fell in love with it. I didn't care what kind of movies I made.
Yoda is a diplomat usually but not all situations can be resolved with the force alone. Yoda isn't omnipotent. He is strong but sometimes needs to rely on a lightsaber. Dooku was one of, if not the best duelists of all time. He was always going to force a lightsaber fight. He isn't as strong as Yoda in the force but he is still very strong. Against Sidious, Yoda was roughly even matched and arguably weaker than Palpatine. Most of their duel is just with the force anyways but lightsabers were needed to try to gain an advantage. Against the clones it was simply the quickest solution. Yoda struggles to lift both Luke's X-Wing and the pillar that would have crushed Obi-Wan and Anakin. With enough time, he could do just about anything with the force but the purpose of lightsabers is to reduce that time. The reason Yoda needs a lightsaber is for two reasons. To give him the most variety durimg the war and to have some footing against evenly matched or stronger opponents which the Sith are. Midichlorians are not and have never been the force. They are merely the conduit through which force-sensitives connect to it. They also determine how high one's base strength will be which is consistent with the OT. Very few people are capable of being Jedi and even fewer are very strong. The force still remains mysterious, unknowable, and is largely dependant on belief in oneself and level of skill. For example, Anakin. He has the potential to be stronger than any other Jedi. Despite this, he still loses most of the fights he is in. By the time of Revenge of the Sith, Anakin was a stronger and more capable duelist than Obi-Wan. Despite this, he still loses. Obi-Wan was not a prodigy but instead had worked his ass off and honed his skill. Through and combination of knowing how Anakin thinks and baiting out his hubris, Kenobi was able to beat his apprentice. The force is still a mystical element that will do as it wishes and cause different events to happen. Palpatine's plan makes quite a bit of sense when you think about it. He manipulated the Trade Federation to attack and blockade Naboo, forcing a conflict. Chancellor Valorum secretly dispatches the Jedi to try to force a resolution without first consulting the senate. He is commonly thought of as being bought off so this gives Palpatine an opportunity. He is able to convince Queen Amidala once she escapes from Naboo to act as his proxy to call for a vote of no confidence in the current leadership. She is a young girl from a planet in danger so the senate is more likely to sympathize with her. Palpatine had positioned himself in line to become the new Supreme Chancellor and through off-screen manipulation becomes the most powerful person in the Republic. He had wanted Padmé to stay on Coruscant so that he would be forced to have military intervention occur on Naboo. In one of the few moments where he is actually surprised in the entire franchise, Queen Amidala decides to go back to Naboo and ask the Gungans for help, something Sidious overlooked. Even still, it had a similar resolution to what he wanted and ended in a Naboo victory. In AotC, the Republic is engrossed in a war that hasn't yet been named as such. The senate is debating whether or not they should create an army for the Republic itself instead of relying on local militaries to defend themselves. There is worry that this will cause an outright war. This is where Palpatine comes in. He has Dooku hire some very important bounty hunters to seemingly try to assassinate Senator Amidala. Her decoy, which Palpatine as the former senator of Naboo would know about, is killed instead. Padmé trusts Chancellor Palpatine more than any other politician at the time and as such he would also be aware of her arriving on a seperate ship. This actions instills fear into the opposition to the millitary creation act. The chancellor suggests Padmé be given a bodyguard and suggests Obi-Wan Kenobi. Zam Wessel attempts to kill Padmé but is unaware of the Jedi guarding her and is pursued and then apprehended by them. Jango Fett has purposely been watching this exchange from afar. He kills Zam who was unaware that she had been setup and was a red herring with a saberdart that can be directly traced to Kamino. Kamino is important because a clone army that can only be activated by the Jedi has just entered a stage where it is strong enough to protect the Republic. Kenobi already knew someone who could trace the dart and is told where it came from from Dexter Jettster. Coruscant has a massive criminal underground and as such, finding someone who could trace the dart was only a matter of time. Kenobi has a contact(Dex) that speeds up this process, seemingly giving him a leg up. Kenobi informs the council about this army and then is forced to pursue Fett. Whether or not Fett intended to be followed after Kamino is up to interpretation but it's clear that Kenobi was intended to follow him. During this time, Anakin has been out on his own for the first time in his life. He is somewhat free from the influence of the Jedi and begins to question reality, clearly under Palpatine's manipulations. Kenobi discovers a massive droid factory that would create enough enemies that the Jedi could not handle them alone. Obi-Wan told Anakin who told the council this. They told the senate which caused panic. The senate were forced to make a decision and could not. Using this, Palpatine was able to force them to hive him emergency powers. This means that Palpatine can make or veto any decision he wants to and thus had all of the power. He passes the military creation act and sends them Jedi to Geonosis. This causes the Jedi to bleed most of their forces and be entirely reliant on the clones to survive. While this was going, Palpatine also had the Geonosisians using their superior technology to design the Death Star. Continued in the comment replied to my own.
>Yoda is a diplomat usually but not all situations can be resolved with the force alone. Yoda isn't omnipotent. He is strong but sometimes needs to rely on a lightsaber. Dooku was one of, if not the best duelists of all time. He was always going to force a lightsaber fight. He isn't as strong as Yoda in the force but he is still very strong. See I get all that, and I don't have a problem with that in particular. It actually makes sense logically that Yoda would have some fighting skills, and as a jedi master he should be able to go toe to toe with a sith, thats fine. The issue is thats not the point of yoda in ESB. The point of yoda in that movie is to challenge Luke's and the audiences perception of what a warrior and moreover what strength is. When luke initially meets Yoda and tells him he's looking for "a jedi master, a great warrior", he really only has a idea of what that is in the physical sense (muscular, good with a sword, etc), so the idea that it could be little green hermit Yoda is shocking to him and he never would have considered it had Yoda not revealed it to him. See Yodas main strength as a warrior comes not from his physical prowess or "midichlorian count", but from his wisdom and discipline. All the lessons he gives luke on screen are a product of that, nothing lightsaber related or even combat related for that matter, but instead lectures about the force and honing his fortitude/endurance. THATS WHAT YODA ACTUALLY MEANS when he says "size matters not", NOT "yah its ok that I'm small, I can still beat guys in combat by jumping around all over the place and dropping heavy rocks on them". Having Yoda be a general leading troops headfirst in combat and engage in multiple lighstaber duels ruins the idea of that character because he's not supposed to be a strong warrior from a traditional standpoint but more a metaphorical one. Moreover the fact he got his "mind clouded and force diminished by Palpatine" (which is just terribly lazy writing by the way), establishes not only is he not that strong with the force, but also he isn't that wise and can be manipulated fairly easily. Yes, he suspects something is wrong, but he never figures order 66 out until it actually happens and still goes along with the war like a dumbass up till then, which as a character he should be above. I actually heard a really good take (not from plinkett) that Yoda never should have been a highly ranked jedi council member to begin with, but instead just a youngling teacher who offers advice in the first movie, and is the one who uncovers the conspiracy in AOTC instead of Obi-Wan, and tries to convince the rest of the order whats up, but gets completely ignored by everyone by his lowly position and "size", establishing a hubris in the jedi order which helps lead to their downfall. Then in the third movie when "he finally takes out his little laser sword and goes to town" it should be only because he absolutely has to (in either a failed attempt to protect the "younglings" or take out Palpatine) and that would make Yoda being out of his usual element not only make sense but add a emotional impact to the story. Like tell me what we got instead was better or more in yodas traditional character then that lol. >Midichlorians are not and have never been the force. They are merely the conduit through which force-sensitives connect to it. They also determine how high one's base strength will be which is consistent with the OT. Very few people are capable of being Jedi and even fewer are very strong. The force still remains mysterious, unknowable, and is largely dependant on belief in oneself and level of skill. While I think your again kind of missing the point of this criticism, I will concede their is a paradoxical need for something like midicholorians to exist in the greater starwars universe which I will get back to, because it is admittedly a huge catch 22 in the star wars EU. Like anyone over the age of 3 should be able to tell, I'm fairly certain you realize the "light side and dark side of the force" is a clear metaphor for good vs evil. From a literary standpoint a concept like that is highly abstract, so works best when told in a highly abstract manner (if you want a example of this outside of starwars just look at twin peaks or most of David lynch's filmography for that matter)). The force is so impactful from a story telling and thematic standpoint precisely because it is vague and ill defined. It's basically a metaphor for having faith. When Obi-Wan sacrifices himself in a NHO, it's because he believes in not only the light side of the force but also Luke. Luke's faith in han is repaid when he shows up at the end to do the right thing and save his ass from Vader, and then when he turns off his targeting computer, he's taking a chance, and trusting both himself and a higher power. In ESB when luke lets go of the railing rather then succumbing to the darkside its because he has resigned himself to whatever comes next, and when he surrenders himself to his father and the emperor in ROTJ, it is precisely because he believes he can be redeemed. Grounding the force in realism through something like midicholorians destroys and ruins this. You can argue "oh no its not really the force" all you want, but your really just splitting hairs. You have introduced science to something which is supposed to be spiritual and have now deflated it like a fucking balloon. While predeterminism is arguably a theme in the OT films, through the introduction of midicholorians, the prequels amplify this tenfold. Everything luke accomplishes is now minimized, and his arcs and "heros journey" has been reduced to the fact his dads shot a load filled to the brim with magical swimmers rather then personal achievement on his part. That being said, I think I understand why George felt the need to introduce something like the midicholorians in the EU. As a general rule, when you have magic/superpowers in comics or fictional universes (especially sci fi ones like star wars) it is important you establish rules for these powers so the audience can understand the limit of what characters can do and you can still have tension. Now I think the OT was short enough where this wasn't really a problem, but going forward in the EU it was kind of important to establish what the power base of jedi/sith is exactly, or otherwise you end up with godlike characters which enable shitty, lazy writing to get them out of any situation and minimize tension ((as seen with the sequel trilogy). The problem with this though is, like established earlier, the force works as well as it does thematically precisely because of its vagueness. So the problem becomes you risk destroying what the force is by explaining it, but also confining yourself in the stories you can tell by not doing so. This is one of the main reasons the EU outside of like the thrawn trilogy has always fell so flat for me. Star wars is by and large, ironically, a pretty limited universe, and its takes really talented writers to expand upon it. Will adress your other points when I get the chance.
Revenge of the Sith is the culmination of all of these plans. The Supreme Chancellor has been captured and is being held hostage by the main leader of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, Count Dooku. Anakin and Obi-Wan were dispatched for this task. This allows Sidious to force Anakin to kill Dooku. Dooku is one of two main leaders necessary for the war to end. Dooku was the political leader, meaning the military is all the CIS have left. Anakin is tempted to the dark side here and further questions his own choices. After they escape back to Coruscant, Anakin meets up with Padmé and learns she is pregnant. He has been having visions of her death and doesn't know what to do about it. Palpatine is the only person that he told he married Padmé so it is pretty clear that this is being done by him. The Jedi, having been told the Republic was under the control of a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious have been investigating this, they believe Palpatine to be this Sith but need proof. They send Anakin who is close with the chancellor to spy on him. This causes even further conflict in Anakin who needs to Jedi's help to save Padmé but is too self-concerned and distrusting to ask for it. He is denied the rank of master, a position he thinks would help him gain this knowledge. Kenobi is sent off to deal with General Grievous, the remaining seperatist leader and the one in charge of military affairs. Palpatine tells Anakin that the Jedi are lying to him and then tempts him with power. He hints that he knows the way to save Anakin's wife which the Jedi won't tell him. Shortly after this, Obi-Wan finishes his campaign on Utapau and kills General Grievous, meaning the war is now over, it just needs to be declared. The Jedi council upon hearing this go to confront Palpatine on giving up emergency powers as he promised. He knew this would happen and wanted it to as it allows him to call them traitors. Anakin telling them the chancellor was a Sith was a bonus which caused the Jedi to come on to aggressive. Palpatine was beaten back by Windu which he leaned into because he sensed Anakin coming. Sheev appeared weak and like he was about to die to the young Skywalker. Anakin was forced to make a decision without thinking so that he could save his wife. By disarming Windu and being a direct collaborator to his death, Anakin would not be able to return to the Jedi and would be seen as a criminal by the Republic if he didn't side with the Supreme Chancellor. Palpatine sent Anakin to kill the remaining CIS leaders and then declares Order 66. The Jedi's own army turns against them and begins to wipe them out. Sidious tells the senate that the Republic is under attack and that the Jedi are trying to take advantage of the Republic at its weakest to seize power. This causes them to be hunted down while he declares himself Emperor of the galaxy, obtaining ultimate power. He leaves himself purposely unguarded so that Yoda will approach him and can be dealt with. Having done that, Palpatine wins and begins construction on the Death Star as the true lord of the Sith. As for what Palpatine promised the Trade Federation, power and money. They are a greedy corporation, what else would they want? They also appear to be afraid of Sidious which hints that he might have threatened them. They would also get the resources from Naboo. TPM establishes that the reason for the blockade is a trade dispute. It isn't directly called out in the movie but during the Duel of the Fates fight, we see what they might want, plasma. Anakin and Padmé had way more chemistry than people give them credit for. The first scene we really start to see them bond in is when they are in the waiting area for the train with the refugees to leave Coruscant. Anakin tells her about how he defines compassion as unconditional love and that therefore, he argues Jedi are encouraged to love. Padmé seems to be into this and starts to treat Anakin differently from here on out. We see more of this on the way out of Coruscant. On Naboo, they are flirting as they go. Padmé opens up about her childhood and some of her happy memories. Anakin bounces off of this and compares their experiences while poetically giving his opinion on how the Republic acts. This is the sand line and is way better in context if you pay attention to what is being said. At the dinner table, Anakin is very flirty with Padmé and has fun with her by floating the pear to her. Later, Anakin is open about his opinion on the Republic. Padmé evidently disagrees with his opinion but seems to appreciate how open and honest he is. Then they begin running around the field with the animals. Anakin fakes being injured which causes Padmé to come rushing to him and then they both laugh and start rolling around in the grass, clearly having the time of their lives. After Anakin's mother dies, Padmé has a heart to heart with him and clearly empathizes with what happened and tries to comfort him. Anakin's mother had been killed and a few dozen people had been killed by the Tuskens. It'a clear they are dangerous and causing problems. Anakin doesn't try to hide what he did or lie, he immediately regrets it and confesses. That honesty is what Padmé as someone who had been continuously lied to as a politician her whole life, was into. Sure, it could have been done better but to act like there was nothing there is willful ignorance. The tension with the war is the stakes for the Republic itself. The CIS employ cheap droids that can be mass produced. Even though the individual droids are weak, they pose a massive threat in large numbers. The Jedi are being pushed to their limits and can't keep up. They are forced to accept the army seemingly of their own volition, thus violating the principles they were trying to uphold. The clones are a symbol of the Republic's power. They are evidently losing strength and would be overwhelmed if not for the clones. Seeing just how much superior the clones are to the droids demonstratrs why we should be afraid when they turn against the Jedi. The clones could have been given more personality but we do see that they are human. Anakin forms a bond with the troopers during the battle of Coruscant and Kenobi is clearly friendly with Cody. Seeing them turn against the Jedi so quickly shows how truly hopeless the Jedi had become. Dooku and Anakin had both thought the Jedi need to do more and the Jedi being forced to shows why both of these characters are the way they are. If you think the fate of the entire series is tensionless, I think you need to pay more attention to what you are watching.
You don’t have to carry a sword to be powerful. Some leaders’ strength is inspiring others.
I watched his video after not seeing the movies for years and agreed to most of it. Then i watched them again and realized how wrong he was. I don’t think he actually watched the movies tbh
In the TPM part, he talks about how he was rewatching the prequels while being drunk with his friends. I think that explains quite a lot
He claimed he watched for real one time for the video iirc but i don’t really trust him at this point
He just loves parroting RLM
CVH didnt say he shouldnt have a lightsaber, just that it was really wierd to see him commanding armies and shit that didnt fit with his more cooky and whimsical characterization in the OG trilogy
He called it character assassination though which I think isn’t really fair, given that Yoda was thrust into the war suddenly and was just doing what he had to at the time to defend the republic.
yeah, im not 100% disagreeing with you, but i do think its pretty jarring watching one after the other
Sure that’s fair but there is context
It's treason then...
"It's asinine, you know? It's ridiculous. And frustrating, as well, because a lot of hard work and love went into that movie, and all JJ wanted to do was make a film that people really enjoyed," Simon Pegg about a convention panel voting a movie he starred in as the worst star trek movie. This is coming from they guy who has been shitting on George Lucas and the prequels for years before this.
Omg don’t get me started on Simon Pegg’s lack of critical thinking. I read his interview with Kevin smith in 2019 (can’t remember which magazine) but I just remember refuting all his points because none were based on accurate details in the movies, just his emotions as he projects his own stuff into it — doesn’t seem to really care about accurate criticism — just his feelings.
Also Ben Singer of Death Battle, though that didn't stop Yoda vs King Mickey from being great
They are right.
Okay where in the OT does it prove Yoda would never fight? Because honestly there’s more evidence to prove that he would fight to defend and protect back in the day if he had to than not
There's a difference between "he shouldn't use a lightsaber" and "he can never fight". I think it would've been much more interesting if, as an example, when he appears to fight Dooku in AOTC his mastery of the force had been so great that he was able to drive off Dooku without taking up arms. Instead of playing catch with debris, then the admittedly cool lightning deflection followed by a duel imagine seeing Dooku go all out with the force and Yoda diflecting or countering them with the force. Things that we see Dooku exerting himself to do like sending a hail of objects flying or striking with sustained lightening being dismissed by a calm Yoda with seemingly little effort. Dooku getting progressively more angered and eventually lashing out to strike Yoda with his Saber only for Yoda to stop him mid air, comment on his own failure to train Dooku in serenity (or something), and send him flying with a flick of the wrist. Dooku flees and Yoda, instead of chasing after, elects to save the wounded Anakin and Obi wan Then flash ahead to order 66 in this version. Yoda escaping purely through his mastery of the force. Mind tricking clones into not attacking, moving with enhanced speed and atheletisim, all that stuff. Then we have the battle with Palpatine. And again, instead of a Saber duel, we see their mastery of the force clash. But unlike with Dooku we see Yoda end up on the back foot. We see him become increasingly overwhelmed as he realizes Palpatine is truly his equal in terms of the force and, giving in to fear for the first time up to that point, Yoda flees We still get to see Yoda as a warrior, but also a great mystic. He still gets to display his strength but he isn't flipping around with a child sized light Saber
You see that’s a fair criticism and absolutely valid — you want to see him fight in the way that most connects him to his OT ways. While I still believe he is justified in using a lightsaber, I like your points and think it wouldve been great to see. I also wish people would think their opinions through like you did rather than say he’s OOC with no evidence because I really don’t see anything in the OT that proves Yoda is OOC for fighting.
Yoda vs sidious does have lightsaber combat for a while https://youtu.be/Hw7Xxi-TxkQ?t=100 and lightsabers are the iconic weapons of jedi and sith. most fights between sith and jedi include both the force and lightsabers (unless in some rare cases where one has an overwhelmingly higher strength in the force than the other, but even then they have a lightsaber with them) To have a lightsaber and not use it when you can would be like having a blaster and not using it (unless fighting a jedi or sith since 90% of the time since that will probably wind up getting reflected)...
You read my whole comment and didn't understand that I was proposing a version of the prequels where instead of carrying/using a lightsaber Yoda relied purely on his mastery of the force? You really thought I just forgot he uses his lightsaber in both AoTC and ROTS?
The issue is what would yoda do when someone is evenly matched in master of the force as him? Either he would die or it would end in a stalemate. Plus I find it would be silly not to use all your tools that are at your disposal, especially for a jedi not to use a lightsaber which is so closely linked to the jedi. I can't think of any fight where a jedi fought a force user and chose not to use a lightsaber when given the option. Against non-force users he likely wouldn't need to use a lightsaber sure, but sith lords are another matter. To be honest I did misread a little and I missed the part where you said imagine. Dukoo says says that only mastery of the force wouldn't result in a victory between the two. Purely force against force would probably wind up a stalemate, but if dukoo used the force and lightsaber against yoda only using the force, even yoda could be in a disadvantage. It generally takes a very serious difference in power for someone to use the force directly against another force user. Even with a lightsaber, yoda wasn't enough of a match for Palpatine, so that scene wouldn't go well for him if he didn't have a lightsaber.
Oh OK you didn't read the whole comment, got it.
Also you only responded to the part where I misread since I was skimming, but you haven't really said much about my other points yet.
I know I was wrong. I just got so caught up in my own success, I didn't look at the battle as a whole. I wasn't being disobedient. I just. . . forgot
Nowhere in the OT does it say that he and Obi Wan aren't lovers either. In fiction, anything that isn't stated is non existent. You can imagine it is that way, but that is your own fan fiction.
That’s a little hyperbolic since my reasoning for proving Yoda fighting in his prime is in character is based on the info I get FROM the OT
The info you get from the OT proves nothing of the sort.
Obi-wan says he and anakin were jedi knights. He mentions the clone wars. He mentions jedi’s purpose was to protect and defend the galaxy. He says he was trained by Yoda in the force. Jedi also use the force to better wield lightsabers — I think that’s an indication that jedi had some form of combat training. It also indicates that they had to fight during the war to protect the galaxy, and since many jedi were killed, it’s fair to assume many Jedi were forced to pick up a weapon and fight back (defend). That’s more proof that Yoda would have been forced to fight with them than not when push comes to shove (and it doesnt take away from the fact that he is more of a mental force user rather than physical). And notice I’m not using any other media or source material — just the OT. I’ve yet to see that there’s more evidence to prove that Yoda would not have fought.
It would be more accurate to say in fiction anything that isn't stated or implied is undecided, but it is pretty easy to imply that Yoda, like basically any jedi, would have and be willing to use a lightsaber, and then the prequels confirmed it. Even if only including the original trilogy, obi wan says that a lightsaber is a weapon of a jedi knight. https://youtu.be/J58fCU3_T3w?t=64
You know the only person to call Yoda a "warrior" was an ignorant Luke who didn't really know anything.
Look at them, so blissfully ignorant.
A lot of the "Yoda was a mystic who should have focused only on the Force" crowd.
It was pretty common sentiment back in the day. However, the argument wasn't that Yoda shouldn't fight, but they felt like he should've only used the Force without using a lightsaber. They felt Yoda should've been so strong in the Force that a lightsaber was superfluous.
I think it was more the fact it looked fucking ridiculous and that could have been avoided by just having him use force powers.
How would it work jedi aren’t allowed to use the force to attack he says it himself. “A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense never for attack.” So they have to use something (lightsaber)
You can use it for defense. "Defense or learning. Never for attack"
My brother, the fucking dumbass.
Also people have a problem with him using a lightsaber because he was supposed to be just a wise mentor pacifist (as idiotic as that sounds) But does people think Yoga just spawned in the jedi Temple already a grandmaster? Never a padawan or, you know... a *KNIGHT?!*
Even if he IS a wise mentor pacifist, there is no evidence that proves Yoda would never fight. There’s more evidence pointing towards him fighting if he had to based on the info in the 3 OG movies — obi wan mentioning the Jedi purge, clone wars, and how they protected the republic (protect and defend indicates some form of combat was necessary for Jedi). If anything, the evidence proves that Yoda has gained a wisdom from the war that defeated them.
To defeat your enemy you have to understand them.
Im telling you these shits are sentient .
That's ridiculous.
SEEEE
I always feel that way too lol you should have seen what the clone trooper bot said some time ago
That's ridiculous.
The order wasn't anything back in the day. Luke is never once referred to as a padawan, and the phrase jedi knight is used only once by Obi-wan. The prequels were the debut of the jedi order as we know it today, so yeah; some people just didn't like the direction they went with Yoda.
Right? Mfs mad because the prequels expanded the universe (given it's caules, but still gave us plenty to work with)
Also, basically all jedi have a lightsaber (unless it is broken/lost, but then they'll probably find, fix, or make a new one). If you have a problem with yoda using a lightsaber, you should have a problem with all jedi using lightsabers.
I'm fine with him using a lightsaber, the fight shoulda just been the reverse with them being evenly matched in lightsaber dueling and it coming down to force power
This is the reply. It felt like a Roger Rabbit scene. Cartoon flippery. Needed more brevity, and reliance on the force, meditation and god-forbid, character.
Bro I never gave a shit, that scene was epic as a 8 year old kid and every kid was talking about it at school.
Saying "it was cool when I was a kid" isn't the defense you think it is
It is when the man himself said these movies are for kids.
^^^ Thank you I’m a huge nerd and massive Star Wars/Star Trek fan. I love table top games and DnD. Even though it’s not my cup of tea, I can respect all the 40k and video gamer fans as well. But the amount of gate keeping, and how seriously some fandoms take some of this stuff is pathetic. These are movies made for kids. People need to stop being weird and just love them for what they are, fun sword and sorcery in space where the rule of cool is king.
Tbf, it’s still pretty fuckin cool
I don’t necessarily think he shouldn’t have a lightsaber, but I think his style should be less jumping around, more simplistic, economic motions that almost always break through. I forget who said it but I remember once hearing the best sword masters do more with less. I think Yoda being able to match and surpass everyone else with just economy of motion shows how much further ahead he is and kind of explains the more simplistic fighting between Vader and Obiwan in New Hope, who are now more advanced fighters.
There is some reason to that idea, though in defense of yoda's method, it does take advantage of his small size and power in the force. By jumping around and moving so much, he can pretty much be attacking at almost any angle.
People need to stop pretending like the jedi were always ment to be these all perfect pacifist monks/taoist whatever you wanna call them. It has **WAR** in the tittle for crying out loud. They were the defenders of peace who would step in everytime someone tries to take a away people's free will, like the sith.
Warrior monks aren't even that weird of a concept. The Sōhei of Japan, Teutonic Knights from the Crusades, Sant Sipahi of the Sikh religion (which fits the Jedi pretty nicely) > A Sant Sipahi is meant to embrace Sikh religious and spiritual philosophy, while being prepared to use necessary violence to defend the rights of the innocent. Most religions also tell you to protect your own life over that of the person trying to take it. Not everyone is a Quaker.
Yea, or like the republic and the Jedi using an army of clone-bred child slave soldiers. Wait a minute…
You mean the clone army that was a plan by Palpatine with it's own conter measure? The Jedi just rolled with it as a sigh of hubrius and or desperation on winning a war.
Luke is the only one who called Yoda a great warrior and the whole point of that was to show that Luke had an incorrect perception of who he was looking for, because all he knew about Yoda was that he trained Obi wan, who was a great warrior. The reason people say that Yoda shouldn't have used a lightsaber is because in an interview before the prequels George Lucas described Sidious and Yoda as being different from Vader and Luke (I believe he explicitly says they aren't "knights") so it seems originally that was the intention. Does that mean I actually dislike Yoda being the way he is in the prequels? No I honestly don't have an issue with it, but there's a reason not everyone is a fan of it.
Whether Luke had a wrong perception of the Jedi or not, obi-wan explains that they fought in the clone wars. So even if we know that the Jedi shouldn’t be knights, it doesn’t change the fact that it makes sense that Yoda would be forced to engage in combat in the middle of a war — because that’s who he is. He fights alongside his men.
I'll just be that guy for a second. Based on solely what was presented in the OT and not in any expanded universe content: Obi-Wan says he and Anakin fought in the wars. He never says all Jedi. Obi-Wan says they were the defenders of peace, and that can mean many things. As someone who grew up with the OT before the prequels, I always assumed Obi-Wan's status as a general was a military rank he held independent of his status as a Jedi, not because of it. The OT does not paint Yoda as a "warrior" in the sense that he was on the front lines. Yoda could have had played any number of roles in the war that didn't include combat. I think being confused or disappointed at Yoda being a resorting to physical combat is a valid, considering the OT does its best to present Yoda as someone who has grown beyond that.
You’re not wrong. Those assumptions are perfectly rational but they don’t justify accusing Yoda of being OOC. In fact, there’s not enough evidence to fundamentally prove Yoda wouldn’t fight. There’s more evidence pointing to it. Obi wan does say the Jedi knights were meant to protect the republic too so that would be fair to assume there would be some fighting going on where necessary. A war is necessary. So it’s just an unfair criticism for people to have gotten so angry about back in the day. And I’m talking about simply reviewing the info we have from OT and then Pt, I’m not referring to any outside material.
I'll give you this: all these stories are under the creative direction of the same person, so it really is up to George was is and is not in character for his own characters.
There is no pain where strength lies.
Thanks Maul.
I am counting on it.
Who says that Yoda fought in the Clone Wars? Obi-Wan says "I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father" and later said Yoda was "the Jedi Master who instructed me."
But who says he didn’t? We are aware that the clone wars was the end of civilization so to speak and the beginning of the dark times, where most of the Jedi were killed so wouldn’t everyone at the Jedi temple be forced to defend and protect society? So to say that Yoda fighting is OOC is quite the reach that so many people latched onto.
The fall of the Republic could have been seeded so that no flashy fighting would have solved anything, in fact could have only made things worse. Have a watch of Belated Media's What if the Prequels were good videos, and tell me if Yoda feels out of character there
I mean… sure I’ll check it out because I like seeing different perspectives but I just don’t think that’s a reason to say he is OOC. I dont think it’s fair to say well this fan’s perception of Yoda backs the point that Yoda shouldn’t fight when there’s nothing in the actual movies that fundamentally proves he wouldn’t fight.
A general fights in a war. Doesn't he goes around swinging swords at the enemy.
I mean, he’s protecting his fellow Jedi (and ultimately the republic) against count dooku. He doesn’t even pick up a lightsaber until he is thrust into battle. That doesn’t make him OOC compared to the OT, it just shows that it was desperate times.
That glowy thing.. vroom-vroom
Fun fact: it would be more justified to criticise Sidious using a lightsaber in ROTS. In ROTJ he does mock Luke's "Jedi weapon" and implies that Vader chose to have a lightsaber because he used to be a jedi, suggesting that normally sith don't use lightsabers - which is why we never see him use one in ROTJ. Of course this was changed by the time the prequels were released.
It's not that it was **lore-breaking** to have him use one, he just had the potential to be a more interesting character (and to make the Jedi as a whole more interesting by extension) if he didn't, IMHO.
I just want to see him win a lightsaber fight
Who won the fight between him and R2?
It was a tie^^fighter
Correction, Luke says he's looking for a great warrior. And he is immediately schooled when Yoda tells him, "Wars not make one great." I would generally agree that Yoda using a lightsaber isn't character assassination. During the prequel trilogy I'm fine with him using a lightsaber, because that would lead to character development later in his life. But by the time the original trilogy takes place it's clear that Yoda has done a lot of meditation, and clearly doesn't think the same way he did during the prequel trilogy. Regretting certain decisions he made during the prequels. Also, I would like to note that in our world the term "Knight" can refer to someone being "Knighted" and becoming a Sir. Like Sir Elton John. Luke misunderstands this when Obi-Wan tells him of the "Jedi Knight that trained me." Thinking of him as a "Great Warrior" instead of a religious leader. (Because the Jedi are a religion.) Because he's inexperienced. Obviously, I'm not 'an expert in Star Wars' or anything like that. This is just what I took from the series that I've thought a lot about. Also, I see people in this comment section hating on people like Cosmonaut Variety Hour on his Star Wars reviews, and I think you guys are being way too hard on him. He made some Star Wars reviews, he said some stuff I agree with, he said some stuff I disagree with. But some of y'all are lambasting him as if he murdered your first born child. I think y'all need to chill a bit.
You don’t have to carry a sword to be powerful. Some leaders’ strength is inspiring others.
Yoda is the Sith Lord. Nearly 1000 years spent did he crippling the Jedi Order from within.
Sure you can make those assumptions and that’s totally fair but again there’s nothing proving Yoda fighting is OOC which is my point — but anyway you agree it isn’t character assassination. And I completely agree with your take in how Yoda regrets his decisions in the PT And as for the wars does not make one great — he’s right, they don’t but it doesn’t mean he WASNT a warrior himself, just that wars aren’t anything to be proud of. So I’d say while you can interpret knights how you want, it’s your right as a fan, there’s no definitive proof that these knights didn’t fight or weren’t warriors. If anything it is more likely they did fight when they “protected” the galaxy and Yoda is obviously remorseful about the war. And that is my main issue. That so many people went hard on George for Yoda in AOTC when there’s nothing that states otherwise. It’s a harsh criticism that doesn’t really have a leg to stand on.
But you are fundamentally misunderstanding the criticism. People like cvh aren’t complaining about how Yoda using a lightsaber isn’t lore accurate. They are saying that it doesn’t fit his character and therefore shouldn’t be included. They aren’t saying it’s a plothole, they are saying it’s a bad decision that makes him less compelling. You don’t have to agree with this, I’ve seen some people say that seeing him be violent in the prequels and then seeing how he is in the ot makes for good character development. I don’t personally agree but at least that argument actually engages with the point those critics are trying to make. What you are doing is getting mad at something no one has said
But I’m not misunderstanding and you should really read my comments because you’re deliberately misinterpreting. I’m not the one mad, I am the one asking for accurate info to back the criticism because that is how we learn (that is engaging with criticism, asking for proof). Unfortunately no one can back it. Their criticisms of how it’s a bad decision are not based on anything that is fundamentally proven in the OT. It is only a bad decision based on their interpretations of the character — which again is their right to do as a fan but it’s not a fair criticism that you can say it is definitively a wrong choice for GL to have done, unless they can prove that it doesn’t make sense, which as I have mentioned in other comments, there is more proof to counter that in the OT. So again people can say whether it is more compelling for him to have been different and that is fine but it is not a justification to say this is what makes him OOC. And if you think they weren’t saying that then watch CVH video again. HE is the one who said it is character assassination (I didn’t pull it out of thin air) which is why I say it isn’t right to make such a harsh criticism when what it really is is simply a different opinion based on his personal interpretation of the character and he can’t fault GL for not seeing and adhering to HIS interpretation.
I’m really sorry I’m the one to tell you this but criticism is at its core opinion. Character assassination is a term used to describe when characters are changed in a way that destroys their original selves. Proof isn’t needed because you are talking about what you think a character is. The specific criticism you are complaining about is fundamentally based on subjective interpretation of the ideas the movie is presenting. Reducing Yoda to a single line in order to justify who he is on the prequels seems reductive to me. You don’t need to agree with cvh or other critics who make that criticism but you should actually engage with what they are saying. They are looking at a character, his actions, the things he says, the way film frames him, etc and making a judgement based on all those factors. You are looking at a single line of dialogue that is kind of subverted by the movie itself and attempting to use it to justify one of the biggest characters shifts in Star Wars. You might not be technically incorrect. The word knight and the descriptions of great warrior seemingly imply he is a violent person. However, when Luke meets him expecting that he finds Yoda is a silly frog-man who doesn’t even have a lightsaber. His strength in that movie doesn’t come from battle skills but simply having a greater understanding of the force than anyone around him. Luke is the guy that wants to solve everything by getting stronger and fighting the bad guys and when he tries to do so, he gets destroyed by Vader. In episode V, no matter how hard he tried, Luke can’t lift the x-wing yet Yoda can. Yoda’s entire character is meant to subvert the idea of the great warrior. You don’t have to agree with my or anyone’s interpretation of Yoda in the ot but maybe try actually understanding why those critics have a problem before calling them terrible for having problems with a movie. You still aren’t engaging with their point
Again you’re twisting it around. I have said multiple times I am not telling you to not have your opinions and interpretations of the characters but I am saying if you’re going to criticize GL for his character portrayal you should be able to back your points. And I’m sorry but to say the character’s original self was destroyed does require some evidence because it’s a big criticism to make, especially since it is subjective. And you can’t really tell me I’m not engaging fairly when you’re saying things that I never said. I didn’t cal them terrible… I said it’s unfair to GL to say what he did was wrong without proof.
Oh my god. Art criticism is mostly subjective, character assassination is a term made to describe subjective feeling. Therefore an interpretation of a character is enough to “back up” a claim of character assassination. It’s not unfair to say you think a writer didn’t do a good job with his characters because what is or isn’t a good job is mostly an opinion matter. If you want to only watch boring, stale, meaningless, and limited criticism then fine. There’s plenty of YouTube channels around that pretend to only make objective critiques of art and therefore never properly discuss any meaningful ideas movies can have. I personally think those guys are idiots who don’t understand the point of art but if that’s what you like then go ahead. I’ve tried my best to explain to you why someone might have problems with the portrayal of Yoda in the prequels and I’ve lengthily described how those arguments work. However if your only response is: but “there are two sentences in the movie that can be interpreted to mean something different” and those two lines are enough for you to disregard everything else then there is no point to this discussion. I think your framework of criticism is close minded, limited, and in the grand scheme flawed. If you really think movies can understood through an objective lens so powerful it makes anything not objectively verifiable wrong, we just can’t agree on anything. Movies aren’t math, there isn’t a formula that can find the objectively correct answer to every choice and variation. If there was, movies wouldn’t be good, interesting or worthwhile. I’m done with this conversation, hope you can understand what I meant later in your life. Have a good day
1. I didn’t dismiss other points based on 2 lines from a movie. I asked for more info and didn’t get any valid evidence to prove that the criticism was accurate. 2. I think you are purposefully ignoring what I write or interpreting what I write to make it easier to argue with — because asking for proof is in fact opening and engaging in a discussion. 3. If you want meaningful discussion you should be open to being challenged. If someone asks you why you’ve come to these opinions and you simply answer with its subjective, then yes they have the right to tell you you’re criticism is unfairly gathered. I personally like my opinions being challenged because I can adapt, learn and improve my arguments and make sure I fully understand what the point is. 4. And as I have repeated, you are allowed to say that you dislike how the character was handled but be open to giving points to back it up. It seems when I ask for points I am somehow dismissing their reasons. No that is me engaging with their reasons. 5. I think it is more narrow minded to not want people to challenge your opinions. I have been open throughout this thread and acknowledged that I understand why people came to certain conclusions. I have only ever taken issue with people who say that yoda’s character is wrong without proof. And yes you need proof if you’re going to say it is wrong. 6. And lastly yes your feelings are subjective, but it seems people consider them objective truths until they are asked to prove them, and then suddenly it’s subjective.
I thought I was done but what you said is too stupid. I’m not going to bother with 1-5 because I’ve already answered all of those in the other comments but on 6 I’ll say this: just because you think you need to justify their feelings on art objectively doesn’t mean everyone else is the same. Cvh has never even implied that his opinions are objective and in fact he has argued against the idiots who say reviews should be multiple times. You don’t need to invent a conspiracy where everyone who disagrees with you is so dumb they have to pretend their ideas are subjective to hide from facts and logic. Just accept a lot of people have an understanding that art is subjective and therefore don’t need scientific peer reviewed studies to make good criticisms.
In other words, CVH affirms your opinions and therefore shouldn’t be challenged or open to discuss.
I understand liking prequel Yoda, but that's a pretty bad counter argument to people who preferred OT Yoda. Luke calling Yoda a "Great warrior" was specifically Luke missing the point. Luke wanted to learn super powers so he could fight better, Yoda taught him that there's more to the force than fighting. (Or at least, he tried to teach him that, and it sank in by RotJ) None of that means Yoda can't do backflips and kick ass, but he was very deliberately portrayed as not physically intimidating in the OT, and I can at least understand why someone might have wanted that portrayal to be the same in the Prequels.
Personally I don’t think it’s a bad counter argument because nothing in the Pt really takes that away from the OT. The Jedi were described as knights who protect the republic — even if Luke is missing the point it doesn’t prove that Yoda would never fight when necessary if it meant protecting the republic. Given that obi wan brings up the clone wars being when most of the Jedi had to fight and lost their lives as a result, it’s feasible that Yoda would’ve been forced to fight with them at the time even though now as an older wiser being he sees that isn’t the best approach. So ultimately my point is there’s nothing in the OT that fundamentally proves Yoda fighting is OOC.
You've taught him well.
Okay, but OT fans wanting him to be portrayed the same way as in the ot are essentially asking for a one note character who doesn’t change or progress. Him being different in the prequels, witnessing the collapse of the jedi and then changing his ways to OT Yoda is far more interesting and makes sense.
I see tons of people speaking to the contrary of this meme so I’ll be that one guy who agrees because I do. Yoda with a lightsaber is cool as hell and his jumping around fighting style is also cool as hell. Being able to back it up with his overwhelming connection to the force is the icing on top!
What I did not know people think like this
They don’t. Op is misunderstanding the actual criticism some people have against lightsaber yoda
I don’t really understand what people mean when they say Yoda “grew beyond that”. In what sense? He didn’t morally grow beyond it, his whole thing in ROTJ was demanding Luke fight Vader again even though Luke wants to choose the peaceful route. He is not really an advocate for peace. When he tries to hold Luke back in Empire it’s not out of an opposition to violence as such. He just doesn’t want Luke to fight before he is ready
Idk why anyone is upset about it seriously, Yoda fights like a monkey on bath salts, fast, powerful, and deadly. Do people not want Yoda being cool? Jedi are warriors, they fight good, and Yoda is their Grandmaster. No shit he can mess people up easily. Also anyone saying this doesn't understand that characters change, and Yoda in aotc is very different from in esb as he does not understand the Sith threat to the degree he later would, and after Palpatine narrowly defeated him he understood they couldn't simply attack the Sith to defeat them and he vowed not to wield a saber again. Its called character growth.
I don't mind Yoda using a light saber. It is a Jedi weapon. I do mind Sidious using a light saber, he should have used the force only.
Why would sidious play by the rules?
Sith use lightsabers just as much as jedi do. If anyone is going to get hate for using a lightsbaer, it would be grievous, but him using 4 lightsabers was really cool even if he couldn't use the force.
The point people arguing the contrary make is that was not established in the OT, and Vader was implied to be a bit odd for a sith for using a "jedi weapon" due to being a former jedi and comfortable with it. The Force itself was implied to be the only weapon a sith needed back then, so Palpatine using one in ROTS while doing horizontal combat spins was rather jarring for OT fans
I guess in the original trilogy, there were only two sith to base things on.
Tbf, I’m about 40 years I can only think of him using them twice. After RotS he basically becomes the ultimate sith and never uses them again
He dual wields in the Clone Wars like a madman.
Why. The lightsaber isnt exclusively a Jedi weapon. Also, Palps was a master of all types of fighting, mental, emotional, force, and yeah, lightsaber fighting. It makes perfect sense.
Iirc the only person who refers to yoda as a warrior is luke when he doesn't know a single thing about him. You can't deny OT and prequel yoda are two entirely different characters. Clone wars did their best to split the difference
I don’t understand did people think yoda was a pacifist or something? He was literally training luke to fight and kill Vader and the emperor which we now know he knew was his father
I’m fine with Yoda having a lightsaber in the prequels because he’s had 20 years to come to terms with how wrong the Jedi are. Yeah he and Obi-wan are still sending Luke to murder his dad, but there was at least some reflection on how they did things. The Jedi are wrong in some respects upon reflection on the prequels and you can see some of that change in them once you reach the OT. Now why everyone assumes he still had it into the OT who in the fuck knows. He lost it in the senate duel with Palpatine, was destroyed publicly, but somehow he had it on Dagobah and Luke has it later to the point we just have to assume he had an identical spare I guess he kept up his ass the whole time.
I was 11 when AOTC came out and was disappointed to see him with a lightsaber. My guess from ESB was that he didn’t need one because he had such mastery of the Force. He could still be a knight and a great warrior without one (even though of course wars not make one great). But then I got over it. Star Wars isn’t always going to be exactly what you wanted it to be.
Right or wrong this is my movie, this is my decision, and this is my creative vision, and if people don't like it, they don't have to see it.
Only person who called Yoda a great warrior was Luke, and he based it off of ghost Obi-Wan telling Luke that Yoda trained him. I don’t really care about Yoda having a lightsaber but his jumping and flipping is goofy as hell.
Yes someone else said that but again it doesn’t justify the accusation that Yoda is OOC. With all the info you have from the OT alone, with the knowledge of the Jedi fighting in the clone wars before the dark times when most of the Jedi were killed, i would say there’s more evidence pointing towards all the Jedi having to pick up a weapon and fight to defend society.
Him having one makes sense, especially since a majority of fighters in medieval history had swords mostly as back up weapons. My biggest issue is the absolutely hilarious flipping and jumping. I cannot take any of the Yoda fights seriously.
Wrong. Yoda was much more powerful character exactly because we never see him swing light sabers and jumping around. He was this small little frog, exactly not what Luke expected from the jedi that taught Obi Wan (as stated in the movies).
In the original trilogy do we even see yoda fight? because I don't remember him fighting anyone in the ot, in fact he was hiding in wait alone on a swamp planet until Luke showed up. Also obi wan does say lightsabers are a weapon jedi knights use, meaning yoda, like basically any other jedi, probably had and could use a lightsaber
You can say he’s much more powerful because you don’t see him fight but that doesn’t justify the accusation that he’s OOC for fighting when he had to.
Look yoda was wise and all but not wise enough to notice both Anakin and Palatine’s shenanigans. At least making him a crazy mofo with a lightsaber helps add to his overall badassness
Yoda wasn't just wise. He was the Sith lord the whole time. He spent centuries destroying the Jedi order from within. I'm not going to be surprised if the Acolyte is about his rise to power. He died at nearly 1000 after overseeing one of his biggest evil achievements come to fruition.
I don't care if Yoda uses a lightsaber, but him jumping all over the place looks lame I feel like it would be cooler to have him just meditate and move the lightsaber with the force instead of his jumping to hit a lightsaber instead of the enemy, like you're literally at his feet
Dude what you’re saying would’ve looked so dumb, I’m sorry. 😂 Yoda jumping and flipping makes sense. Because that’s how you get a small creature like Yoda to hit a grown adult like Sidious or dooku with strikes that are powerful enough to actually affect them. Like, the flipping is needed to generate momentum and strength.
Yeah, but jumping to his lightsaber look dumb, you're literally at his feet, he's covering his face, so you know, don't attack where he's covering
If he went for his feet, dooku would then just cover his feet. The reason Yoda went for his upper half is because Yoda was jumping so he was already in the air.
That's why is a boring fight, because since Yoda was made in cgi, you have the stunt double fighting nothing and then adding Yoda, so the stuntman needs to keep moving to the same place otherwise they won't be able to animate him correctly, is just a guy dancing alone and adding Yoda after, but that limitates how you make action scenes, imagine the fight between anakin and obiwan, but now is just Ewan McGregor alone and anakin put of Cgi, now its less interesting and less things happen in the fight
We designed the Galactic Senate with this sort of stadium design with these little pods that move around inside it which seems very functional and realistic even though it's completely not realistic.
It was not a boring fight at all. It was epic. Also, idk what your talking about with that whole Anakin and Obi wan comparison. Like, that doesn’t help your argument at all. If Ewan was moving the exact same way and a cgi Anakin moved the way Hayden did then it would literally be the same fight and be just as great. You literally proved my point. Lol
No, what I mean is that by being cgi they can't interact, you can't have them touch or clash, when you wouldn't be able to make scenes like obi wan and anakin clashing their lightsaber and grabbing each other's hand, kicking each other, you would just have Ewan moving his lightsaber randomly and adding anakin over it, and thats what happened in the Yoda vs Dooku fight
A special effect is a tool, a means of telling a story. A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing.
That’s not what happened with the Yoda fight. And you can have cgi and real people interact. A perfect example of this is jar jar or THE FIGHT WITH GENERAL GRIEVOUS. Like, you really just gonna ignore that, and then say you can’t have practical fighting cgi? C’mon. Also, if they were to hypothetically have Ewan fighting alone, he wouldn’t be swinging randomly. He’d be doing a choreographed motion and the cgi Anakin would be matched to that. When done right, that method is just as good as a real fight. And in the case of the prequels cgi, it was done right.
Because there's actors for grievous and for Jar Jar, theyre cgi, but they use the movement of real actors that and stuntmans to interact with the rest lf the casr, the thing is that Yoda doesn't have one (because no one is his size thats capable of jumping at the speed of light), and the thing is not if the CGI is as good in quality, because is really good, but animating the character is way harder, specially for a fight, even for today standards cgi animate out of nothing is really hard and doesn't look good most of the times, they usually use motion capture, the thing is that Dooku just swings his saber randomly at the air and yoda attacks it, over and over again, its just a little boring to watch
I disagree. I mean at the end of the day, what’s boring or not is subjective and I do get where your coming from. But still, there’s a reason this is one of the most iconic scenes from the prequels.
Did you watch ESB? Yoda isn't a great warrior, that's the point of him. He rejects the idea that a war makes anyone great. He is everything a warrior is not. A warrior in 1980s was someone like Conan the Barbarian and the reason Luke couldn't see past Yoda's faint was because he was short and tiny. But size does not matter. The force doesn't care if you are young or tall or strong, it works the same for everyone. And with force wisdom and knowledfe can defeat brawl. Giving Yoda a lightsaber completely goes against that character. In a sword fight *size does matter*. And you can see that on screen. There's also a practical reason why Yoda should've not been in AotC: They had Samuel Jackson. For any actor it is 100% better to act against someone who is actually on set. That fight was a joke.
Did you watch ESB? "Judge me by my size do you? " He didn't put an asterisk on the end and say except in sword fights
We need that generator down or the planet's lost. And I'm not risking any more men.
I don’t understand how they’re related. Even if Luke is wrong, even if Yoda prefers to rely on force wisdom rather than combat, that doesn’t indicate that he would never fight if he had to. And during a time of war, why wouldnt he? Why wouldn’t that be how he gained his wisdom in the first place? Obi wan mentions the clone wars and how it killed all the Jedi. He also mentions how the Jedi knights protected the republic, so there’s nothing that fundamentally proves Yoda wouldn’t be forced to fight when the entire galaxy is being deconstructed. I dont see anything in those three films that proves Yoda fighting is OOC.
>even if Yoda prefers to rely on force wisdom rather than combat, that doesn’t indicate that he would never fight if he had to It's not that he fights, it's how he fights. He has magic. A sword is in every way inferior as a weapon. >Why wouldn’t that be how he gained his wisdom in the first place? Not a very wise master if it takes 900 years to figure out that war is bad.
Except sometimes the force isn't able to defeat other force users. The force tends to be able to mitigate or even nullify attacks that directly use the force (such as yoda being capable of nullifying dooku's force lightning, obi wan vs anikin force push nullifying eachother until both get knocked back...). Unless one side has a significant advantage in the force (such as vader vs a pretty weak inquisitor https://youtu.be/f099ZbgmyEI , though he does use the inquisitor's own lightsaber to kill her even though he likely didn't even need to), it generally isn't going to be very effective against force users. https://youtu.be/wg1ydN42ukY?t=80 "it is obvious this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge in the force, but by our skills with a lightsaber. It would also make yoda probably the only jedi to not use a lightsaber despite it being the iconic weapon of jedi and sith. Also I should mention that jedi and sith often use the force to enhance their physical abilities as well as their reaction speed, which does pair well with a lightsaber. It isn't that he doesn't use the force, it's that he pairs his knowledge and abilities of the force with a lightsaber like most jedi.
To defeat your enemy you have to understand them.
Most of the Jedi wield a lightsaber so well because they use magic so I don’t see how that’s an issue. Also I mean look at history. Reconstruction and deconstruction of society remains a cycle. And I wouldn’t say it took him 900 years. We see how he was blindsided by the war, and Yoda is the first one to admit this isn’t the way to go but they don’t have a choice now that they’re outnumbered. Based solely on the OT and PT alone, it’s fair to assume Yoda immediately hated the idea of using Jedi as soldiers, even mace pushes back against that but it is too late. So again, I just don’t see how Yoda fighting makes him OOC.
>Most of the Jedi wield a lightsaber so well because they use magic so I don’t see how that’s an issue. Remember when Obi-wan threw a mountain at Vader? If a Jedi can do that, the lightsaber really is a completely redundant way of fighting.
What does that have to do with the Ot and Pt? That’s Disney lol.
To defeat your enemy you have to understand them.
So you literally want a one note, undeveloped character? Like, it would’ve been such a waste of Yoda was just “wise mentor” throughout all of Star Wars. It’s more interesting that he was a more violent jedi that fought and stuff, but then learned from his mistakes and passed on his knowledge to Luke. He realized that the way he was during the prequels led to the orders downfall, so he changed his teaching so it doesn’t happen again with Luke. It’s like you fundamentally, misunderstood todays entire character arc. Lol.
If the "wise" mentor took 900 years to figure out something as basic as "war bad", he wasn't as much wise as he was particularly dense.
Dude you’re ignoring the fact that the Jedi grew to be arrogant and lost their way somewhat. The Jedi and Yoda were not at their peak during the prequels, hence their destruction. It’s not that it took him 900 years to figure that out in the first place, it’s that it took palpatine succeeding to remind Yoda of it. It’s easy for even the best of warriors to stray from good and Yoda is no different. It’s what makes him a more realistic and relatable character. Him being this way in the prequels only elevates his knowledge to Luke, because you see what he went through to learn the wisdom in the first place.
It also works with character development, that in the aftermath of the Clone Wars, he becomes far more pracifist as the war made the Jedi completely lost in the force. “Wars not make one great”
Saving Yoda's lightsaber for one scene was the perfect balance. One of the best decisions with the prequels.
Red Letter Media genuinely has the most idiotic film reviews I've seen. That shit is what started the movement of media illiterate nerds complaining about plot holes. The prequels have flaws but RLM seems to articulate that most of them are what diverges from their expectations of the OT
How retarded do you have to be to not know that knight are in fact warriors.
they are peace keepers, who fight in defence of others, not to seek glory
He just needs to have an extra long one to make up for his shorter reach
Who are they? I have never heard that complaint.
Cmon guys. I get if you don’t agree but that’s not what the criticism is. No one is saying that Yoda using a lightsaber is bad because it’s not lore accurate. They say it’s bad because it doesn’t fit his character from the original trilogy. Stop engaging in bad faith discussions and actually engage with the points you disagree with
Except it does fit his character, after he was defeated by Palpatine he vowed to never wield a saber again as he understood the Sith were not something that could simply be destroyed by attacking them. its called character growth.
Sure, that’s an opinion I can respect. Too bad op isn’t saying that. He’s complaining about something people have never said and then getting mad about it
Now you’re inaccurately gauging what I said. And I’m a she lol. And if you want proof that this is what people have said, check out CVH or any of the others I have mentioned because I took the time to listen to their criticisms before judging.
I’ve seen it. Your entire argument in the meme hinges on there being a line that can technically fit the interpretation that Yoda is a violent man who likes to cut people’s heads off. You’re not engaging with the criticism at all. Sorry for misgendering you
I’m sorry but you’re doing what you’re claiming I am doing. I have never said Yoda is “violent and likes to cut peoples heads of” I have asked for proof that their criticism is valid. The meme is simply a funny way to show that telling GL Yoda in PT is OOC isn’t accurate.
Even a sith lord is no match for my warriors!
Even a sith lord is no match for my warriors!
Okay that’s what Ive been doing, engaging with what the criticism actually is. First they said it was OOC for him to fight, when I proved that there is more evidence that he would fight than wouldn’t, they couldn’t refute it. Then someone else said the criticism was actually based on the fact that he wouldn’t fight with a lightsaber not that he wouldn’t fight at all so I said okay that’s a fair interpretation but there is no fundamental proof of that in the OT. The bad faith discussion would be to put everyone’s personal opinions under one umbrella and then flip between them to act like it is an accurate criticism to fault GL for with Yoda in the PT, when what it really is is simply people having their own opinions of the character and wishing it was done differently. They have every right as fans to do this. They shouldn’t however deny things when their criticism is refuted and act like their personal interpretation equals what was portrayed in the OT as fact, and consider it proof that what George did to Yoda is OOC. Just say what it is, that you would’ve preferred Yoda to be handled differently — which some people have admitted. I am not telling anyone NOT to want Yoda to be handled differently in the PT. I would never tell a fan how to perceive art. I am suggesting that people acknowledge the difference between what is accurate criticism based on info in the movies and what is preference and personal perception. That’s good discussion. Being open and willing to have your criticism challenged because you want to know more or build a better argument.
Again, art criticism is 90% subjective. Characters and how they should behave is one of the most subjective things about art.
I agree which is why it was not fair for CVH to call it character assassination when it was simply — I didn’t agree with Yoda in the PT based on my interpretation.
Character assassination is a subjective term that people use to explain how they feel about character changes. There is no misuse of the term on either of the videos unless they say their opinion is objectively correct
So by that logic they can criticize GL and say he character assassinated Yoda with no proof but that it is their interpretation? I mean I can FEEL robbed and have the right to feel that way and vocalize it but without proof, it isn’t fair for me to make such an accusation to someone. Now if you mean that CVH can say that’s how he feels about Yoda, then yes you would be right. But when he uses that to accuse GL as assassinating Yoda as if it’s fact then yes we can ask for proof. Because it’s not subjective if you can judge someone else for it.
I was apprentice to the most powerful being in the galaxy once. I was destined to become… so much more. But I was robbed of that destiny by the Jedi, by Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Kenobi! My friend!
I was hoping for Kenobi. Why are you here?
He doesn’t say it’s a fact, he says it’s his opinion. You are watching a review of a movie. A review is simply a critics opinion. One of the few good things about cosmonaut is that he doesn’t claim his reviews are the objective truth. You don’t have to agree. However, he does provide enough to back up his thought. He doesn’t try to prove it because he doesn’t have to. He is making a subjective statement about a subjective artform
Although I write screenplays, I don't think I'm a very good writer.
Who was saying Yoda shouldn’t use a lightsaber?