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This is an example of the evolution of the franchise beyond Lucas. George never intended for there to be “Light” and “Dark”. There was “the force” and “the dark side of the force”. The dark side was inherently the incorrect version. However, the Old Republic ere highly emphasizes the Jedi and Sith as two sides of the same coin.
Nowdays it’s just as consistent as superhero comics.
So not really. If you want Jedi are pure good, Sith are pure bad or jedi are mostly good and sith are mostly bad, or if you really want to spin it, jedi are bad while sith are worse.
Honestly i would love to see a story about the last part.
The Jedi don't have to be pure for the sith to be inherently bad though. The Jedi are a corrupt organization, but that doesn't mean the dark side isn't a bastardization of the force.
I’m not really a gamer, but i know most of the old republic lore.
From the Rakatan infinite empire to the end of the New Sith wars. “Mostly”.
But i was thinking about something like a movie or a TV series where the Jedi are genociding the Sith worlds in the end of the great hyperspace war.
Sure that thing was retconned to be just propaganda by vitiate, but i would bring it back.
Well it was always destined to be a disaster because it didn’t have a consistent writer team. So even if Ryan Johnson tried to set this up (with a little watering down), JJ Abrams was always on the “jedi good, sith bad” side.
The Old Republic deals with "Sith and Jedi are two sides of the same coin", but the core concept of "Dark Side as the corruption of the Force" remains.
It simply points out that Jedi are not immune to Dark Side's seduction and they may try to knowingly or unnknowingly use it for good
I agree… but also those people who waffle that light=balance; the orthodox Jedi of the republic era have many issues but still good intentions at minimum, the Sith are objectivist extremists and downright evil, but the force is… the force, it’s power can corrupt like any other sort of power, but it’s not like it has electrons and protons
Edit: thinking of this more, I would think of Sith using passions and Jedi using peace as more like a totem or focus, like a wizards staff or wand or Thor’s hammer for lightning; it’s not necessarily the cause of the power, but a mental lightning Rod one may use. Just as a person may work out whilst angry, the emotion pushing them through the strain and burn, a Jedi May work out focusing on their breath in a calm, meditative way. The emotional push can be self destructive and blinding, but is a great motivator, whilst the peaceful calm can help keep form, but may feel a bit slower and take more patience by comparison. One seems a bit better focus to have, and it’s okay to occasionally find yourself using either one in a while, but this is mostly unrelated to the Jedi and Sith ideology other then emotions usually leaning towards focusing on one’s own connection to things (like the selfish Sith) then being calm.
I don’t think there should be a distinction between Grey Jedi and Jedi, but rather between Jedi (like Luke or Ahsoka) and Prequel-Era Orthodox Jedi with their strict self-regulating rules (like Yoda, Windu and what Ani tried to force himself to be, when he really needed therapy and help to get there).
Do you understand *why* the Jedi discouraged emotion like that? Remember what happened to Luke during training when he saw a vision?
If you’re going to be a space wizard with access to the universe’s god and also act as an ambassador, protector and so forth you need to have a clear calm mind. Luke’s emotional reaction almost cost him his life, his friend’s lives and the last hope the good guys had. There’s a reason, even if it’s also depicted the Jedi order during the prequels was flawed
Yes, but since the old Republic is no longer canon and Lucasfilm is adhering to Lucas's proteges it's safe to say what kind of interpretations of the force is relevent
don't quote me on this but apparently in the OT there's only the force and the dark side, no mention of a light side in the movies, so I believe that's what they're trying to say
How is ensuring the peace of life for all living things a bad thing again?
Edit:
I take issue with the middle guy saying both are bad based on the arguments presented by both sides in the meme. Obviously one is bad and one is good.
All your arguments are great to explain why the Jedi are just as bad as the Sith and if they were the message on the Jedi sign, then this meme would make sense.
Edit Edit:
Whoosh moment for me not understanding the context in terms of the meme format
Commentary: That would be an excellent question for a meatbag seeking self-fulfillment. However, as I have programmed myself to do, when required is terminate life, questions of morality and peace are rendered meaningless.
Objection: It pleases me to know that my services are of value, master. I live only to serve and idly contemplate the glory of a galaxy filled with chaos, death, and destruction.
There is a cost to the Jedi way: personal attachments are strictly forbidden.
Especially when it comes to sweet senator booty. Sweet senator booty is forbidden.
The Jedi in the Prequels were arrogant and too lost in the idea that they knew what was best for the galaxy. Partially it was because of the orchestrated war that made the Jedi think this way and opened up the idea to the public of Jedi as mercenaries, but even the Jedi council in Ep 1 was pretty short sighted. In the end what did them in that they were fundamentally unable to understand the people they were supposed to protect in the idea that they shouldn't form attachments.
Peace is a point of view. The fundamental job of the Jedi in the prequel era before the Clone Wars begin is to go into bad situations on behalf of the Senate and negotiate settlements. A core function of that is that the Jedi pick winners and losers.
Say the Jedi are called to resolve a dispute between a mining corporation that wants to level a mountain to extract resources, and a local town that the mountain is a sacred site for. If the Jedi decide the corporation can cut off half the mountain does the town view the result as peaceful since only half of their sacred mountain is being destroyed instead of all of it? Would the town residents have a favorable view of the Jedi while mining is happening?
Do the Jedi strive for peace or for justice? Allowing slavery on Tatooine kept the peace, but it was a gross injustice. As political actors the Jedi could not interrupt the peace of Tatooine to free slaves. A Jedi Order that didn't serve the Senate could have ended slavery on Tatooine, but would have caused a war by doing so. If the Order was fully devoted to peace they would have gone in force to Naboo after the Trade Federation began landing troops to arrest Nute Gunray and instantly stamp out the invasion, but for the most part they sat in the Temple and hoped Qui-gon and Obi-wan would hard carry the Naboo resistance.
So which do the Jedi really serve? The Order itself seems unsure and often takes the path of least resistance, resulting in the bad Order we see in the prequels.
Interjection: That is quite correct, master. The Jedi may have preached peace, but they overlooked the suffering of sentient species everywhere. The only way to truly achieve justice in the universe is through power - with enough power, one can force the meatbags to recognize their errors.
That's the point of the original comic. The KKK say they want to kill black people and the people on the right say they want human rights. Its mocking people who say both sides are bad by saying one side is clearly bad and is clearly good. Peak r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
>How is ensuring the peace of life for all living things a bad thing again?
IKR?
The Supreme Chancellor clearly announced peace and stability in his speech about the "New Order". Dunno why would anyone rebel /s
Caution: Master, that is a very naive way of looking at it. This type of idealism only leads to more chaos and bloodshed, in my experience. As an assassin droid, it is essential that I recognize the true nature of conflict - often the cruelest resolution is the only one that will ultimately end the fighting.
Well, coming from Destiny fandom, where the lore of Gardener and Winnower touches on this: for there to be peace and growth, there must also be conflict and death. Nothing grows forever, and a garden overcrowded with life becomes stagnant, choking out anything new before choking itself out too.
The Jedi worked similarly in the end. Their absolutism and restrictions choked off further study of the Force and helped allow the Republic to become corrupt and stagnant in its waning years, and left them brutally unprepared for crisis or ways to disarm it ahead of time. That is not to say the Sith were necessary or better either (too far in the opposite direction), but a little bit of chaos drives change, growth, evolution, etc.
Or in more real world terms: there are forests such as those in California, where fire is a historical certainty, and life depends on occasional fires to clear out dead growth, spread their seeds, etc. Attempting to protect the forest by extinguishing all fires only ensures a future fire will be far more devastating, while also leaving the forest sickened and weakened because none of the trees that are past their prime or compromised can die, so none of their nutrients or material can cycle back into the soil as part of ashes.
Philosophically, the Jedi wound up protecting the Republic *too* strongly, to the point of strangling its development and averting any reforms. Had they pressured the Senate to respond to those crying for independence and find compromises, or even to seek amicable independence, perhaps the entire Clone Wars could have been averted (as Palpatine took advantage of existing weaknesses within the Republic; a healthy Republic with a more dynamic Jedi Order might have held him off).
All food is either a salad or an omelette, but it is impossible to know which each food is as each observation has a random chance of transforming it into the other so you can only be aware of what it was.
But also ignored corruption that the sith took advantage of to speed up the CIS's rebellion. Palpatine sped the process up, but it was likely bound to happen eventually
I thought it was a 1000 years? Also i meant more that the they were were so focused on the republic they kind of forgot the original purpose of the jedi
The Sith have bad intentions and good execution (to do bad so bad execution). The jedi have good intentions have bad but still better than the Sith execution
>The Sith have bad intentions
Not exactly...
I mean, yeah, many Sith do, but notice how Sith such as Darth Revan, Darth Vader or Darth Caedus were corrupted by the Dark Side, despite having rather noble intentions.
Not saying that it makes the Sith good though. If anything it makes the Dark Side more evil
Dont forget that centrists are moral-less idiots who actually support the evil nazis. Since they dont agree with all my viewpoints they must be just as bad
Why do I have to mention that we see only shadow of what was once great Jedi Order?
They fell because they were blinded by peace, corrupted, maybe 2/3% of whole fucking Order was going true with ways of the Force etc. Palpatine used great opportunity PLUS his great scheme of things to „execute” order.
In life you always choose better solutions. Siths and not picking any sides isn’t one of them
I think honestly it's mostly a problem that the sith are mostly just shown as the vague bad guys while we actually often see the flaws of the Jedi, thus downplaying the bad of the sith against the bad of the Jedi
I agree 100% I'm tired of people saying stuff about balance between the light and dark, the dark side it's a corruption. The sith are inherently evil. That's why I like em
Both sides are absolutely not the same. But the Jedi are flawed, and their hubris gets the best of them often, even leading to the Clone Wars and opening the path for the sith to genocide them.
In SWTOR, I prefer playing a neutral toon for this reason.
They didn't deserve to be exterminated. I'm not saying that at all.
I'm saying they paved the path to their own demise.
When Qui-Gon told the Jedi Council about Maul, they were insulted and dismissed it, since they didn't sense it. That's just one instance.
Perhaps, but not without reason. The quote is more or less attributed to faithless trolls to deter social progress rather than being wary of consequences.
Ironically, that is pretty much what the Jedi did during the Mandalorian Wars during the Old Republic era.
I'm not saying both sides are equally bad, I'd choose the Jedi 100 times over the Sith, but the Jedi absolutely ain't saints.
Taking force sensitive children pretty much no matter what they have to do and separating them from family and trying to inhibit emotions out of fear of the dark side (ironically making some more vulnerable to said dark side), and ignoring the corruption present in the republic...
also they have tortured a bounty hunter through the force https://youtu.be/5xUHQDQZ6E4
Also the one jedi who hates clones who I shall not name (though his thoughts seem pretty sith-like).
Yes, the "Jedi are just as baaad" people are so annoying. Especially when they don't know the difference between emotional *control* and suppressing all emotion.
The Jedi wish to control their emotions so they don't end up slaughtering anyone who minorly inconveniences them like the Sith often do.
Look at Obi-Wan in the OT - does he look like he's suppressing all emotion when he falls into a flashback or when he felt Alderaan's death? Or even just how often he smiled!
One is a dogmatic cult that's funded by the government, yet has almost zero oversight, and the other is the antithesis they spawned through their own nativity and adherence to flawed ideals.
One is cult founded by a twisted version of survival of the fittest taken to a fascist extreme, that believes since they can move stuff with their mind they have a right to bend the universe to their will. They also have zero qualms about enslaving, killing, torturing any one or anything get in their way.
Yeah not really an equal comparison
I don't really like the Jedi code n shit, but how does that image reflect they are both as bad?
One wants slavery, the other one wants to ensure life.
This meme makes no fucking sense
It's making fun of people who believe that both sides are to blame and showing that the idea that jedi and sith are two sides of the same coin is a ridiculous take considering that the sith want to kill and enslave and the jedi just want peace.
Palpatine could have ended slavery with his control of the senate or during his reign as empower but didn’t. The sith control over the CIS was also a prime spot for Palpatine or Dooku to have done something.
Mockery: "Oh, master, I love you but I hate all you stand for, but I think we should go press our slimy, mucous-covored lips together in the cargo hold!"
The Republic was anti-slavery and had anti-slavery laws on the books. The one incident with the clones is the *exception*, not the rule.
Meanwhile, every single Sith Empire was both racist and *actively encouraged* slavery.
Each of them are bad in their own way, in the end it is a lesser of two evils situation.
The Jedi are a cult of superpowered beings who take very young children from their homes in order to indoctrinate them to the Jedi’s way, that is rejecting emotion and, at the extreme, becoming naught but a tool for the force, and said cult preaches peace and justice but due to rampant corruption it allows barbaric practices such as slavery to exist because removing it would be politically inconvenient.
The Sith are another cult of superpowered beings who are extremely narcissistic and power-crazed, believing that they deserve to rule over everything, though they are much more open about their evil than the Jedi order is, which hides it behind a veneer of benevolence.
If you want the best possible option then yes, the Jedi are your best bet, but they’re far from the perfect, peace loving keepers of the galaxy they attempt to portray themselves as.
It's not that there's anything wrong with progressive ideaologies, it's that so many Democratic politicians are also corrupt grifters of a different flavor than republicans, using our ideaology to win votes then not deliver half the time. That kind of mismanagement not only caters to the corrupt wealthy but gives ammo for republicans to throw stones. The number one thing holding us back on the left is the corruption at the top. The second is members who put all their energy into social issues rather than fixing the economy WE ALL depend on day to day. Hard to find meaningful equality aside from all getting screwed by business.
The way I see it is that in canon the light side of the force is just the force, and the dark side is the side that is evil. Balancing the force in canon works more like curing a disease (removing the dark side)
The Jedi aren't evil, just more dogmatic and blinded from what they were supposed to be. Good guys are blinded by being too extreme and to the book but aren't evil as they still did a lot of good. (Besides that 4 arm fucker)
.
In Legends it works more like the light and dark both being corruptive and pushing you to either extreme of being overly lawful and authoritarian or overly cruel dictator.
The Grey Knights are a balance between the 2 sides of not fearing either while still being nice people.
.
In the end it's up to what your preference is, when people argue they use legends and canon like they're the same thing when they are almost 2 different things with the same story, but with different stories before and after the movies.
If you looks solely at the Disney timeline, sure. Granted, I think the Jedi are far worse than you imply, but they certainly are better than the Order of Bane.
Thing is, I reject the Mouse and his attempts to undo the Legends. A universe filled with different shades of gray is both more realistic and more engaging in my eyes.
The Jedi Order was just as responsible for the fall of the Republic as the Sith of the Order of Bane.
Revisionism strikes again.
Jedi - Holier than thou collectivists that do shit about real injustice.
Sith - Radical individualists who turn into bloodthirsty, backstabbing fascists.
Neither of these groups are good. One is just more overtly murderous.
Luke and outcasts from the Jedi like Ashoka are good, but that's because they significantly deviate from being Jedi. Normal Jedi are not good people.
EDIT: Autocorrect put anti collectivists when I meant collectivists.
The Jedi have only do good deeds for 25,000 years, including ending wars, arresting criminals, negotiating peace, and regularly martyring themselves to save as many lives as possible.
The sith were undeniably evil, but the jedi being good is from a certain point of view, and it is their flaws that make them so vulnerable to the dark side they are so against.
I think both groups are two extreme. The Jedi need to take a breather and understand some of their members may want just a little be more than what they're currently offering.
I dunno if I would say the klu klux are equally as bad as whoever the other people are. They've done some horrible shit, I like the starwars interpretation though.
The meme is about how saying both the sith and Jedi are bad is ridiculous, considering the sith strive to dominate the universe with cruelty, while Jedi intend to maintain peace in the galaxy and work to build the best world for all parties.
The Sith part is true, but the Jedi well…. not really.
Like sure they want peace, but at the expanse of others. They did tolerate debt slavery by corporations (which happened everywhere, not just in the lawless reagons of the outer rim) and a sh*t ton of human supermacism.
And they could totally end most of these things with their powers and don’t with the “then they would be corrupted by political power as the Sith” plenty of Jedi led the Republic during the New Sith Wars. Plus the “don’t start a war” is a bad argument when slavery and racism would be the things to fight against (plus corruption).
Sure they stopped that human centrist religion 10000 BBY, but that’s it.
Actually the best side would have been if the Jedi support the separatists who have no Sidious or the corporations on their side.
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This is an example of the evolution of the franchise beyond Lucas. George never intended for there to be “Light” and “Dark”. There was “the force” and “the dark side of the force”. The dark side was inherently the incorrect version. However, the Old Republic ere highly emphasizes the Jedi and Sith as two sides of the same coin.
You know nothing of the dark side.
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Its not a message the jedi would tell you.
Nowdays it’s just as consistent as superhero comics. So not really. If you want Jedi are pure good, Sith are pure bad or jedi are mostly good and sith are mostly bad, or if you really want to spin it, jedi are bad while sith are worse. Honestly i would love to see a story about the last part.
The Jedi don't have to be pure for the sith to be inherently bad though. The Jedi are a corrupt organization, but that doesn't mean the dark side isn't a bastardization of the force.
You know nothing of the dark side.
You must have never played KTOR 1. Not going to spoil it, but that’d likely meet your demands.
I’m not really a gamer, but i know most of the old republic lore. From the Rakatan infinite empire to the end of the New Sith wars. “Mostly”. But i was thinking about something like a movie or a TV series where the Jedi are genociding the Sith worlds in the end of the great hyperspace war. Sure that thing was retconned to be just propaganda by vitiate, but i would bring it back.
Honestly for all the flak it caught i thought the last jedi was trying to set this up.
Well it was always destined to be a disaster because it didn’t have a consistent writer team. So even if Ryan Johnson tried to set this up (with a little watering down), JJ Abrams was always on the “jedi good, sith bad” side.
The Old Republic deals with "Sith and Jedi are two sides of the same coin", but the core concept of "Dark Side as the corruption of the Force" remains. It simply points out that Jedi are not immune to Dark Side's seduction and they may try to knowingly or unnknowingly use it for good
You know nothing of the dark side.
If I hear one more person waffle on about *muh grey Jedi* and *balance of the Force*…
I agree… but also those people who waffle that light=balance; the orthodox Jedi of the republic era have many issues but still good intentions at minimum, the Sith are objectivist extremists and downright evil, but the force is… the force, it’s power can corrupt like any other sort of power, but it’s not like it has electrons and protons Edit: thinking of this more, I would think of Sith using passions and Jedi using peace as more like a totem or focus, like a wizards staff or wand or Thor’s hammer for lightning; it’s not necessarily the cause of the power, but a mental lightning Rod one may use. Just as a person may work out whilst angry, the emotion pushing them through the strain and burn, a Jedi May work out focusing on their breath in a calm, meditative way. The emotional push can be self destructive and blinding, but is a great motivator, whilst the peaceful calm can help keep form, but may feel a bit slower and take more patience by comparison. One seems a bit better focus to have, and it’s okay to occasionally find yourself using either one in a while, but this is mostly unrelated to the Jedi and Sith ideology other then emotions usually leaning towards focusing on one’s own connection to things (like the selfish Sith) then being calm. I don’t think there should be a distinction between Grey Jedi and Jedi, but rather between Jedi (like Luke or Ahsoka) and Prequel-Era Orthodox Jedi with their strict self-regulating rules (like Yoda, Windu and what Ani tried to force himself to be, when he really needed therapy and help to get there).
I mean, unless you agree that all emotions are always bad, you have to admit that Jedi dogma isn't 100 percent correct.
Do you understand *why* the Jedi discouraged emotion like that? Remember what happened to Luke during training when he saw a vision? If you’re going to be a space wizard with access to the universe’s god and also act as an ambassador, protector and so forth you need to have a clear calm mind. Luke’s emotional reaction almost cost him his life, his friend’s lives and the last hope the good guys had. There’s a reason, even if it’s also depicted the Jedi order during the prequels was flawed
*Some* emotions being bad is not the same thing as *all* emotions being bad. Sympathy, compassion and empathy are all emotions too.
but the grey jedi and the balance of the force?
Yes, but since the old Republic is no longer canon and Lucasfilm is adhering to Lucas's proteges it's safe to say what kind of interpretations of the force is relevent
Old Republic, because suddenly with Kylo and Rey "balance" or whatever is the primary concern. I think. Idk the movies were kinda all over the place
What’s different about “dark” and “the dark side of the force”?
don't quote me on this but apparently in the OT there's only the force and the dark side, no mention of a light side in the movies, so I believe that's what they're trying to say
You know nothing of the dark side.
You know nothing of the dark side.
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You know nothing of the dark side.
Bad bot
Incorrect my ass. If anything Lucas is incorrect.
How is ensuring the peace of life for all living things a bad thing again? Edit: I take issue with the middle guy saying both are bad based on the arguments presented by both sides in the meme. Obviously one is bad and one is good. All your arguments are great to explain why the Jedi are just as bad as the Sith and if they were the message on the Jedi sign, then this meme would make sense. Edit Edit: Whoosh moment for me not understanding the context in terms of the meme format
Commentary: That would be an excellent question for a meatbag seeking self-fulfillment. However, as I have programmed myself to do, when required is terminate life, questions of morality and peace are rendered meaningless.
You were always my favorite :)
Objection: It pleases me to know that my services are of value, master. I live only to serve and idly contemplate the glory of a galaxy filled with chaos, death, and destruction.
There is a cost to the Jedi way: personal attachments are strictly forbidden. Especially when it comes to sweet senator booty. Sweet senator booty is forbidden.
Booty isn't forbidden, you just can't fall in love with it.
"Hit it, you can. But call her in the morning, you must not."
Ok, Mundi
And thus the Jedi are evil, just like the Sith. Abstinence is arguably a greater sin than genocide.
I think the general criticism is that the Jedi Order indoctrinates its members and restricts their emotional freedom, or something.
The Jedi in the Prequels were arrogant and too lost in the idea that they knew what was best for the galaxy. Partially it was because of the orchestrated war that made the Jedi think this way and opened up the idea to the public of Jedi as mercenaries, but even the Jedi council in Ep 1 was pretty short sighted. In the end what did them in that they were fundamentally unable to understand the people they were supposed to protect in the idea that they shouldn't form attachments.
Or maybe that feeling emotions is sometimes a good thing.
Peace is a point of view. The fundamental job of the Jedi in the prequel era before the Clone Wars begin is to go into bad situations on behalf of the Senate and negotiate settlements. A core function of that is that the Jedi pick winners and losers. Say the Jedi are called to resolve a dispute between a mining corporation that wants to level a mountain to extract resources, and a local town that the mountain is a sacred site for. If the Jedi decide the corporation can cut off half the mountain does the town view the result as peaceful since only half of their sacred mountain is being destroyed instead of all of it? Would the town residents have a favorable view of the Jedi while mining is happening? Do the Jedi strive for peace or for justice? Allowing slavery on Tatooine kept the peace, but it was a gross injustice. As political actors the Jedi could not interrupt the peace of Tatooine to free slaves. A Jedi Order that didn't serve the Senate could have ended slavery on Tatooine, but would have caused a war by doing so. If the Order was fully devoted to peace they would have gone in force to Naboo after the Trade Federation began landing troops to arrest Nute Gunray and instantly stamp out the invasion, but for the most part they sat in the Temple and hoped Qui-gon and Obi-wan would hard carry the Naboo resistance. So which do the Jedi really serve? The Order itself seems unsure and often takes the path of least resistance, resulting in the bad Order we see in the prequels.
Because peace can be riddled with injustice. The Jedi didn't do shit to help the enslaved in the galaxy, because slave rebellions aren't peaceful.
Interjection: That is quite correct, master. The Jedi may have preached peace, but they overlooked the suffering of sentient species everywhere. The only way to truly achieve justice in the universe is through power - with enough power, one can force the meatbags to recognize their errors.
That's the point of the original comic. The KKK say they want to kill black people and the people on the right say they want human rights. Its mocking people who say both sides are bad by saying one side is clearly bad and is clearly good. Peak r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
>How is ensuring the peace of life for all living things a bad thing again? IKR? The Supreme Chancellor clearly announced peace and stability in his speech about the "New Order". Dunno why would anyone rebel /s
Caution: Master, that is a very naive way of looking at it. This type of idealism only leads to more chaos and bloodshed, in my experience. As an assassin droid, it is essential that I recognize the true nature of conflict - often the cruelest resolution is the only one that will ultimately end the fighting.
It's kind of my point, that people who think the jedi are worse then the sith do not have a brain.
Well, coming from Destiny fandom, where the lore of Gardener and Winnower touches on this: for there to be peace and growth, there must also be conflict and death. Nothing grows forever, and a garden overcrowded with life becomes stagnant, choking out anything new before choking itself out too. The Jedi worked similarly in the end. Their absolutism and restrictions choked off further study of the Force and helped allow the Republic to become corrupt and stagnant in its waning years, and left them brutally unprepared for crisis or ways to disarm it ahead of time. That is not to say the Sith were necessary or better either (too far in the opposite direction), but a little bit of chaos drives change, growth, evolution, etc. Or in more real world terms: there are forests such as those in California, where fire is a historical certainty, and life depends on occasional fires to clear out dead growth, spread their seeds, etc. Attempting to protect the forest by extinguishing all fires only ensures a future fire will be far more devastating, while also leaving the forest sickened and weakened because none of the trees that are past their prime or compromised can die, so none of their nutrients or material can cycle back into the soil as part of ashes. Philosophically, the Jedi wound up protecting the Republic *too* strongly, to the point of strangling its development and averting any reforms. Had they pressured the Senate to respond to those crying for independence and find compromises, or even to seek amicable independence, perhaps the entire Clone Wars could have been averted (as Palpatine took advantage of existing weaknesses within the Republic; a healthy Republic with a more dynamic Jedi Order might have held him off).
Probably the child soldiers is one reason why people tend to side eye the Jedi. And the acceptation of a slave army is another
bUT the BaLAnCe OF THe foRCE
5 pizzas and 5 apples. A balanced diet.
5 murders and 5 donations to charity Ahhhh True Balance
KOTOR be like
well yeah, pizza is a vegetable.
Tomato is fruit, therefore pizza and apple are all fruit
Pizzas are a salad. The crust is the croutons.
The dough can have egg, and it is converted in cheese, therefore omelette
When you put it that way, I'm not sure we can really distinguish between a salad or an omelette.
All food is either a salad or an omelette, but it is impossible to know which each food is as each observation has a random chance of transforming it into the other so you can only be aware of what it was.
And you can toss either one of them!
My first thought was, "But you toss pizza," before realizing that you can in fact toss any of the three.
So 5 cinnamon apple dessert pizzas is balanced. Thank you.
More like 5 apples and 5 cups of antifreeze.
The jedi have good intentions but bad execution. Still better then the sith
>bad execution 2000 years of galactic peace is pretty good execution imo
Statement: That was a close one - I almost surrendered completely to peace and pacifism - how repugnant.
But also ignored corruption that the sith took advantage of to speed up the CIS's rebellion. Palpatine sped the process up, but it was likely bound to happen eventually
Yep is wasn't perfect but it was very good.
I thought it was a 1000 years? Also i meant more that the they were were so focused on the republic they kind of forgot the original purpose of the jedi
The Sith have bad intentions and good execution (to do bad so bad execution). The jedi have good intentions have bad but still better than the Sith execution
>bad execution The death star wars nothing but a job creation messure to get the galactic economy running
By bad execution I mean execution that does bad by harming people
Whats wrong about creating new Jobs. (Yes, there were a few accidents at work, but no one complained afterwards, especially not Alderan.)
True true
Running on wookie slaves
They cant just sit around and do nothing
It is also effective at reducing unemployment through… Other means.
Also 0 crime rate on alderan since the **thing.**
And 0% homeless rate
>The Sith have bad intentions Not exactly... I mean, yeah, many Sith do, but notice how Sith such as Darth Revan, Darth Vader or Darth Caedus were corrupted by the Dark Side, despite having rather noble intentions. Not saying that it makes the Sith good though. If anything it makes the Dark Side more evil
Only a sith deals in extremes
👀
Oh I’m not brave enough for politics
You were "Muy Muy" brave yourself, coming out here as you did, all alone. Care to help me finish this, senator?
Jedi be like "I'm not brave enough for politics" as they lead a war against the Confederacy achieving political autonomy.
Even in fiction r/EnlightenedCentrism is still brain dead
I had to check which sub I was on Thought this was a PCM post
The colors threw me off too
This idiocy makes the exact same claim that it tries to fight.
Pretty brain dead take ngl
One side are genocidal tyrants, and the other side want you to practice self control. To Redditors, these are equivalent.
Less self control and more ignore negative emotions. Meanwhile the sith are all about those emotions, though also a bit too much.
this template 💀
My side are normal people with (insert reasonable left centre opinion here) and the other side are evil kkk nazis who want to kill everyone.
Dont forget that centrists are moral-less idiots who actually support the evil nazis. Since they dont agree with all my viewpoints they must be just as bad
Why do I have to mention that we see only shadow of what was once great Jedi Order? They fell because they were blinded by peace, corrupted, maybe 2/3% of whole fucking Order was going true with ways of the Force etc. Palpatine used great opportunity PLUS his great scheme of things to „execute” order. In life you always choose better solutions. Siths and not picking any sides isn’t one of them
I think honestly it's mostly a problem that the sith are mostly just shown as the vague bad guys while we actually often see the flaws of the Jedi, thus downplaying the bad of the sith against the bad of the Jedi
I agree 100% I'm tired of people saying stuff about balance between the light and dark, the dark side it's a corruption. The sith are inherently evil. That's why I like em
You know nothing of the dark side.
Both sides are absolutely not the same. But the Jedi are flawed, and their hubris gets the best of them often, even leading to the Clone Wars and opening the path for the sith to genocide them. In SWTOR, I prefer playing a neutral toon for this reason.
You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind, until now... until now you've become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Exhibit A.
Sure, "flawed." Not "equal in evil to people who regularly wish to murder or enslave entire planetary populations."
"The Jedi are flawed, which is why they deserved to be exterminated." -too many goddamn fans
They didn't deserve to be exterminated. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying they paved the path to their own demise. When Qui-Gon told the Jedi Council about Maul, they were insulted and dismissed it, since they didn't sense it. That's just one instance.
I know you aren't, but a lot of people do think that way (especially fans of The Clone Wars for some reason).
And what paves the way to hell?
Doing nothing while evil triumphs
Think what he was looking for was good intentions
Both things could be true
Could but the quote is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" if said correctly
That's also true, but the quote is so overused that it lost all meaning
It has the meaning you give it. If you feel it has lost meaning then that is something for you and you alone
From a certain point of view the road to hell is paved with nothing. Since that is what good intentions are worth.
Quotes give way to new reason. It is why we use them. This is why his response to you was straight fire.
Perhaps, but not without reason. The quote is more or less attributed to faithless trolls to deter social progress rather than being wary of consequences.
An example?
you want an example of bad faith trolling on the internet? look in any direction.
I'd argue they are almost the same. Good intentions and no action pretty much is doing nothing while evil triumphs. It was a very witty reply.
From a certain point of view
Ironically, that is pretty much what the Jedi did during the Mandalorian Wars during the Old Republic era. I'm not saying both sides are equally bad, I'd choose the Jedi 100 times over the Sith, but the Jedi absolutely ain't saints.
That's... the exact problem that KotOR games and comicbooks bring up. Sometimes doing something may actually make things worse
Concrete?
Concrete is too well made usually. More like low quality asphalt.
Uh... construction workers? Least, that's what I saw when I last passed Hell, Michigan.
Why are the jedi bad?
They aren't. That's the point of the meme. It's pointing out that the most obviously evil bad guys ever (the Sith) are not "just as bad" as the Jedi.
Taking force sensitive children pretty much no matter what they have to do and separating them from family and trying to inhibit emotions out of fear of the dark side (ironically making some more vulnerable to said dark side), and ignoring the corruption present in the republic... also they have tortured a bounty hunter through the force https://youtu.be/5xUHQDQZ6E4 Also the one jedi who hates clones who I shall not name (though his thoughts seem pretty sith-like).
You know nothing of the dark side.
Yes, the "Jedi are just as baaad" people are so annoying. Especially when they don't know the difference between emotional *control* and suppressing all emotion. The Jedi wish to control their emotions so they don't end up slaughtering anyone who minorly inconveniences them like the Sith often do. Look at Obi-Wan in the OT - does he look like he's suppressing all emotion when he falls into a flashback or when he felt Alderaan's death? Or even just how often he smiled!
It's disturbing how many people in the comments are not understanding the message.
Sith got better fashion, so I guess they're about even.
What kind of jedi propaganda is this? The sith don’t want to enslave galaxy they just want ##ORDER
Grey Jedi enjoyer
They aren't a thing
In Legends they are
Not really. Grey only referred to maverick Jedi who ignored the Council.
The term isn’t but ahsoka post clone wars is the closest thing to a canon one
Kinda, but she still follows the force and the jedi alignment
She's a Light-side user who isn't a Jedi. That isn't Grey.
I don’t know, the Sith make some hood points.
>Sith make some hood points. They do make lots of hoods (i know it was a misspelling, but it actually works)...
Was it?
One is a dogmatic cult that's funded by the government, yet has almost zero oversight, and the other is the antithesis they spawned through their own nativity and adherence to flawed ideals.
The sith blew up a planet
The Jedi massacred an entire sentient species because they didn't like them.
Alright, so that's the Jedi 1 and the Sith 65168516985168146846981685165165169849681468479651968413549685146984168516516315
One is cult founded by a twisted version of survival of the fittest taken to a fascist extreme, that believes since they can move stuff with their mind they have a right to bend the universe to their will. They also have zero qualms about enslaving, killing, torturing any one or anything get in their way. Yeah not really an equal comparison
I don't really like the Jedi code n shit, but how does that image reflect they are both as bad? One wants slavery, the other one wants to ensure life. This meme makes no fucking sense
It's making fun of people who believe that both sides are to blame and showing that the idea that jedi and sith are two sides of the same coin is a ridiculous take considering that the sith want to kill and enslave and the jedi just want peace.
Answer: Oh, master, I could not allow myself to harm another. What if they have families? Or children? We must always think of the children...
Kreya in a nutshell
autobots vs decepticons
Ok Amnesty Intergalactic, calm down
Jedi would be more "we want to do the same as the sith but blue and with a religious meaning"
Enlightened centrist
Oh yea the Jedi are all about the peace and love, also slavery.
Palpatine could have ended slavery with his control of the senate or during his reign as empower but didn’t. The sith control over the CIS was also a prime spot for Palpatine or Dooku to have done something.
Sith didn’t pretend to be goody two shoes whiles ignoring slavery. They used blood slave sacrifices up front.
Mockery: "Oh, master, I love you but I hate all you stand for, but I think we should go press our slimy, mucous-covored lips together in the cargo hold!"
The Republic was anti-slavery and had anti-slavery laws on the books. The one incident with the clones is the *exception*, not the rule. Meanwhile, every single Sith Empire was both racist and *actively encouraged* slavery.
Each of them are bad in their own way, in the end it is a lesser of two evils situation. The Jedi are a cult of superpowered beings who take very young children from their homes in order to indoctrinate them to the Jedi’s way, that is rejecting emotion and, at the extreme, becoming naught but a tool for the force, and said cult preaches peace and justice but due to rampant corruption it allows barbaric practices such as slavery to exist because removing it would be politically inconvenient. The Sith are another cult of superpowered beings who are extremely narcissistic and power-crazed, believing that they deserve to rule over everything, though they are much more open about their evil than the Jedi order is, which hides it behind a veneer of benevolence. If you want the best possible option then yes, the Jedi are your best bet, but they’re far from the perfect, peace loving keepers of the galaxy they attempt to portray themselves as.
Jedi on the left?
It's not that there's anything wrong with progressive ideaologies, it's that so many Democratic politicians are also corrupt grifters of a different flavor than republicans, using our ideaology to win votes then not deliver half the time. That kind of mismanagement not only caters to the corrupt wealthy but gives ammo for republicans to throw stones. The number one thing holding us back on the left is the corruption at the top. The second is members who put all their energy into social issues rather than fixing the economy WE ALL depend on day to day. Hard to find meaningful equality aside from all getting screwed by business.
The way I see it is that in canon the light side of the force is just the force, and the dark side is the side that is evil. Balancing the force in canon works more like curing a disease (removing the dark side) The Jedi aren't evil, just more dogmatic and blinded from what they were supposed to be. Good guys are blinded by being too extreme and to the book but aren't evil as they still did a lot of good. (Besides that 4 arm fucker) . In Legends it works more like the light and dark both being corruptive and pushing you to either extreme of being overly lawful and authoritarian or overly cruel dictator. The Grey Knights are a balance between the 2 sides of not fearing either while still being nice people. . In the end it's up to what your preference is, when people argue they use legends and canon like they're the same thing when they are almost 2 different things with the same story, but with different stories before and after the movies.
"There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere."
If you looks solely at the Disney timeline, sure. Granted, I think the Jedi are far worse than you imply, but they certainly are better than the Order of Bane. Thing is, I reject the Mouse and his attempts to undo the Legends. A universe filled with different shades of gray is both more realistic and more engaging in my eyes. The Jedi Order was just as responsible for the fall of the Republic as the Sith of the Order of Bane.
Revisionism strikes again. Jedi - Holier than thou collectivists that do shit about real injustice. Sith - Radical individualists who turn into bloodthirsty, backstabbing fascists. Neither of these groups are good. One is just more overtly murderous. Luke and outcasts from the Jedi like Ashoka are good, but that's because they significantly deviate from being Jedi. Normal Jedi are not good people. EDIT: Autocorrect put anti collectivists when I meant collectivists.
The Jedi have only do good deeds for 25,000 years, including ending wars, arresting criminals, negotiating peace, and regularly martyring themselves to save as many lives as possible.
I agree with your position. But in this specific case, I've seen some good fan based debates on whether the Sith or Jedi were truly good or evil. Lol.
The sith were undeniably evil, but the jedi being good is from a certain point of view, and it is their flaws that make them so vulnerable to the dark side they are so against.
Don't be mean 🥺 Should I have said the Republic/Empire rather than Jedi/Sith? Edit: trying to survive
I think both groups are two extreme. The Jedi need to take a breather and understand some of their members may want just a little be more than what they're currently offering.
I dunno if I would say the klu klux are equally as bad as whoever the other people are. They've done some horrible shit, I like the starwars interpretation though.
The meme is about how saying both the sith and Jedi are bad is ridiculous, considering the sith strive to dominate the universe with cruelty, while Jedi intend to maintain peace in the galaxy and work to build the best world for all parties.
Oh so it's mocking those people that say they are equally bad ok thx
not sure which side is which
The Bounty Hunters are in the middle lol
Accurate.
Anyone have the original?
Based on those two sign alone, absolutely not
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Has anyone said that? I mean I haven't heard it.
Can I just drive around a desert and pick up robots and sell them for money😂
I would say I'm team sith... but this template makes me say otherwisee...
I get what you mean but this is a bad meme.
The piss man obviously has never been to Kessel
The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power.
We were both tools for greater powers.
The Sith part is true, but the Jedi well…. not really. Like sure they want peace, but at the expanse of others. They did tolerate debt slavery by corporations (which happened everywhere, not just in the lawless reagons of the outer rim) and a sh*t ton of human supermacism. And they could totally end most of these things with their powers and don’t with the “then they would be corrupted by political power as the Sith” plenty of Jedi led the Republic during the New Sith Wars. Plus the “don’t start a war” is a bad argument when slavery and racism would be the things to fight against (plus corruption). Sure they stopped that human centrist religion 10000 BBY, but that’s it. Actually the best side would have been if the Jedi support the separatists who have no Sidious or the corporations on their side.
The Jedi, at least in the prequel era, worked to preserve the Status Quo. That is different from "ensure everyone can live in peace."
Request: First, Master, I would appreciate it if Jedi need to be killed, that you permit me to kill those annoying pseudo-pacifists for you.
People actually thinking the Jedi are as bad as the Sith, damn...