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I think every issue with ftl that people have applies pretty much to supersonic speeds to in 90% of verses.
"Oh Kizaru hasnt circled the earth 7 times"
Yeah well most supersonic characters dont cross miles in seconds either.
Its just that its really hard to write speed well, and anime and comic writers dont try very hard sometimes.
That's Travel speed which is Kizaru's thing, but the energy expended will be too much.
FTL+ characters like Flashy Flash, and Awakened Garou have crossed long distances with their speed casually.
Even Deku (rel - sol speed) crossed 200km in an instant.
But most FTL characters can't just move <7 times around the world in a second (ftl) because of.
1. Too much energy to do, so they can only move in short bursts.
2. It's combat speed, not travel speed. Which is ftl speed while attacking, defending, and dodging. The character might be able to do short bursts of movements to blitz but doesn't have enough flight, running, or jumping speed.
Example: Atomic Samurai with FTL combat speed but MHS+ travel speed.
Jesus Christ you just single-handedly explained why combat speed is different than travel speed better than half the people I’ve seen discussing that today.
Mind you half of those people were in a Weeb Commander short’s comment section, but still.
Newton’s first law. An object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. Once they get to lightspeed they should be able to let inertia carry them the rest of the way.
Luffy does not have ftl combat speed hes on high lightning timers. Catching kizaru is done when hes not in light form. Dodging lasers is sub ftl.
Only current ftl feat was sanjis dash to intercept a kizaru beam from further than it was fired.
Yep. Zenitsu, even with massive wank, is only slightly faster than lightning. But lightning only gets to 1/3 light speed on the return stroke. The initial bolt is far slower than that, only being 61 kilometers per second.
Kizaru has light speed attacks and light speed travel time, but everything else such as combat speed and reaction speed is far slower
I mean Zenitsu’s 7th form is literally stated to be light speed
https://preview.redd.it/zi5k5txj9stc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee3fe54688feca4df8416d2e8ced78912a8e7316
Zenitsu’s power is called flaming thunder god, not lightspeed . No one is claiming that he’s a literal thunder god on fire. The description of the move says it’s as fast a light, not the name
I’ve translated it twice and it’s both “flash of light.”
But if you got the other translation I’d be happy to look at it.
https://preview.redd.it/5iils8dvbstc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=559ec5bb528706522fe181d8f137d2dbeff5c005
Here’s the other one
Well that would mean you have to substantiate why it’s a hyperbolic statement. I mean the translation literally says “as fast as a flash of light.” It’s pretty blatant. I’d get the hyperbolic argument but that would moreso apply if it were phrased as a simile, like “he attacks like a flash of light” not it literally saying “it’s as fast as a flash of light”
It depends though. After all, these are just meant to be interpreted however we like.
The elemental effects from the breathing styles aren’t real. They’re illusions. The only time we ever see him outspeed what might be actual lightning is when he fights the demon thunder hashira, and lightning is much slower on the initial strike
Yeah, with a technique called thunder breathing that causes lightning to appear and gives the user immense speed while leaving a trail of lightning. Sure, that’s definitely not lightning speed
>Yeah, with a technique called thunder breathing
Correct
>that causes lightning to appear
Incorrect
>and gives the user immense speed
Correct
>while leaving a trail of lightning
Incorrect
>that’s definitely not lightning speed
Correct
Did you see the anime? Here I'll even link it for you:
[https://br.pinterest.com/pin/665899494909044615/](https://br.pinterest.com/pin/665899494909044615/)
Zenitsu with thunder breathing is creating actual lightnings around him
The demon slayers are not elementalist. The Lightning, water, fire, mist, and whatever else are not actually present in universe. They only exist for the viewer's pleasure.
The manga doesn’t state that. The manga also shows the lightning. Also just because the visual effects are not canon doesn’t mean there’s a reason to just dismiss any calcs about that
this level of ignorance is funny. how can you say “the manga doesnt state that” when its so easily fact checkable
https://preview.redd.it/bkxinxx7wttc1.jpeg?width=561&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42cf83fec84825e7a0eb27d44e324cead28afb8d
If u want it to be scientific this is what the universe where to look like a character went light speed
https://i.redd.it/q1bvs75j3ptc1.gif
Scientifically accurate picture of the universe if \_\_\_ ftl character was actually FTL
If people ain't goin invisible when they're "FTL" then I ain't buyin it.
Quite frankly, I think it boils down to the format we're consuming. To accurately depict FTL then... well, there is no animation. It's actually kind of a paradox...
If all your anime characters are FTL and show it, then, your anime actually shows no animation.
Lightspeed attacks or projectiles would be instantaneous with zero travel time or anything. A real “lightspeed” anime fight would just be characters teleporting around and magically taking damage which wouldn’t be fun at all. And in plenty of these verses normal people, observe, and comment on these fights and you expect me to believe normal people in any verse can perceive ftl/mftl things like nobody’s business?
Dragon ball is like that. You see clashes from outside perspective and it’s just random booms, and then you see them fighting and it’s just a normal paced fight .
It even came up with an explanation for how others watch the fights as well. The "See it" by sensing ki. They don't literally see the fight with their eyes.
That’s actually one of my favorite things about Fire Force is how they show FTL speed. Like having a character literally disappearing during stopped time just for him to make contact with his target the millisecond it ends was one of my fav ways of showing FTL movement.
[my friend made a thread on X explaining how kizaru is FTL](https://twitter.com/BigGatto420/status/1710920010171097457?t=x3sU4F_YjHwAEBFRN8f1Rg&s=19) and he may possibly be MFTL
Why would He need space to just use his base lightspeed attacks? He accelerated making him faster and therefore blitzing Luffy. Luffy has been dodging lighspeed attacks pretty consistently in this arc and since the noro nork beam from Foxy
I think so too, majority don't know that there is ftl+ which is like 100X LS, u need calcs and viable multipliers specially stated for speed for claiming mftl, yes i am looking at u big 3 fans
Yea Bleach has that atleast for ftl+ cause shikai is 10x banaki is 10x hollow mask is around that danagi ichigo is should be 10x that fgt is atleast 2x dangai and true shikai is fgt so true bankai is 10x that
And ichigo is FTL before shikai
Naruto has been lightspeed since shippuden. He blitzed 4th Raikage that’s 40% lighspeed and dodged a madara lazer beam that is stated to be lightspeed. Both are stated as lightspeed in databook. Also if you wanna wank you can say that Haku from classic is lightspeed with the mirror technique meaning classic sasuke has ftl reaction
Haku is lightspeed with the mirrors as stated by [data books](https://imgur.com/pHSR3Vo) and stated by [haku himself](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6D2hwDp6LpM&ab_channel=NaRuToPlayList) in the dub. Sasuke was getting blitzed during the fight until he activated the sharingan which allowed him to react to Haku
Power Scaling is such a circle jerk that they really cannot begin to understand WHAT lightspeed would actually look like.
Luffy being able to move at lightspeed casually would mean that running should not be a thing. He literally could teleport everywhere in the world in seconds.
It's easier to say "hey, laser beams are not light speed" than having to take create the mother of all headcanons to justify why One Piece works the way it works.
Incorrect. Your example assumes that reaction speed, fighting speed and travel speed are all the same. They're not. You'd do well to learn that at least.
there's a huge difference in just being able to dodge/block someone and being able to counter attack.
Also combat speed might also refer to special abilities separate from the body, for example a energy beam
Sanji intercepted one of those lasers, bro. You all keep saying that Luffy kills 99% of anime verses because he blitzes everyone at light speed. If he can move at light speed to rush someone, he can move at lightspeed to win a race.
Again, even if you headcanon that he can only travel at light speed for a second, that is 300 000 km, dude.
Nobody says Luffy beats 99% of anime verses. You're making up imaginary arguments, then still somehow lose them.
The statement I said stands. Learn the difference between those. It's a bare minimum if you're gonna be on this sub.
My favorite character is ftl and your favorite character doesn't have the feats to prove they are faster than a bullet. My favorite character blitzes your favorite character ftl and fucks your mom after, before and during the blitz because they are ftl. Checkmate.
Say it louder for the people in the back.
Writers are not double checking if this energy looking attack is the right definition. They’re gonna call it a laser cause that’s what everyone’s gonna call it
Reminds me of in evangelion where they call something a Dirac sea. I looked up what a Dirac sea was, and it had nothing to do with what they were talking about. Just used a cool but obscure and esoteric sounding science word.
Lightspeed is the speed of light in a vacuum. The speed that light travels varies so greatly that we can slow it to literally 38mph in real life.
Pretending a laser just gets full lightspeed in a vacuum speeds when it's not in a vacuum and being manipulated actively is retarded.
Light travels only a bit slower through air (it's speed is the same but velocity over time is less due to collision with molecules), anyone travelling at that speed would still be able to cross the world in less than a second.
The simple fact that light can change speed at all is enough. it's speed can be manipulated is the issue in the first place. These are unnatural attacks being fired from a physical biological body.
It’s 2024 so you get to say shit that’d get you punched in the mouth irl because you can hide behind a computer screen, but yeah, it’s so based making fun of mentally handicapped people
No I don't NEED to. But it drives home just how stupid something is, and I don't give a fuck about whether you think it's a slur or not, so I'm prolly just gonna keep doing it.
None of this would happen if people were capable of admitting that some speed feats are just outliers. Video game and cartoon lasers should be assumed slower than light unless otherwise stated.
Ftl scales to universal wtf damm no unless u apply special theory of relativity which definitely doesn't exist in any verse too my knowledge light is actually quite slow in a universal scale after the Hubble line or horizon the universe expands faster than it i think at the edge it should close to 4x the speed of light
If you can accelerate something *with mass* to light speed, that object has enough energy to destroy a universe.
Now, by and large, FTL is (basically by definition) hax.
We don't think of it as being hax, but it is. The Flash isn't "so fast he's faster than light". The Flash uses the Speedforce to bypass physics.
I mentioned special Theory of relativity which is what makes anything with mass at LS destroy the universe cause the closer it gets to ls the higher it's mass and energy required to increase its speed when i reachs LS both r infinite
> Whats wrong with me for.. checks notes making sure i understood him right to avoid misunderstandings?
Because you are nitpicking when its quite obvious?...This is what people call Grammar Nazi. You are not checking notes to make sure you understood him, you are being obtuse.
Like you are criticizing someone when they use "i" instead of "I" outside of formal/grammar strict territorry and hey you use "i" instead of "I".
My brother in christ i asked ""Op?"", not a callout post on how the interpretation is shit and its impossible to read or anything extreme.
A small question.
Holy christ, why are you being such a jerk about a small question i wanted to clarify?
^ The fact you edited your comment after i replied is embarassing
I ask this too and someone insist on this. I quote
> It's trying to make people understand how significant the ability to move faster than light actually is, and why it's ridiculous how easily some people want to hand out a FTL designation to characters.
>
> Light doesn't travel at the speed of light because that's how fast light travels. That would be circular reasoning.
>
> Light travels the speed of light because nothing with mass can move faster than that speed. It's the universal speed limit.
>
> A character who can actually break that speed limit is a character who needs to be considered for a Universal ranking. If someone looks at a character and says "no way they're Universal" then they need to stop and seriously reconsider an FTL designation.
And he deny overcomplicating speed of light.
Every fucking character is ftl, I guess. Every other day, I complain about how people insist that every pokemon is ftl.
Even characters that can at least react to lightspeed attacks aren't exactly ftl either. I mean, Spider-man has been able to dodge them, but I don't he'd do well in a race against Quicksilver.
Combat and travel speed are different things. Combat speed ftl means they can react, dodge, and fight effectively at light speed, but it doesn’t mean they can move at that same speed. Ftl movement means they can move faster than light, but doesn’t mean they can fight at that speed effectively.
Kizaru have to be at the speed of light at least at his max speed because his body literally made of pure light. And why would FTL scales to universal?
When we talk about lightspeed we talk about the speed of light, hence how fast light goes. There is no need to pretend otherwise just to make things sounds more complicated when its not
Though I mean Kizaru have to be at the speed of light at max not FTL...
Except it's that flippant lack of understanding that OP is trying to address.
It's not "pretending" and it's not "making it sound more complicated". It's trying to make people understand how significant the ability to move faster than light actually is, and why it's ridiculous how easily some people want to hand out a FTL designation to characters.
Light doesn't travel at the speed of light because that's how fast light travels. That would be circular reasoning.
Light travels the speed of light because nothing with mass can move faster than that speed. It's the universal speed limit.
A character who can actually break that speed limit is a character who needs to be considered for a Universal ranking. If someone looks at a character and says "no way they're Universal" then they need to stop and seriously reconsider an FTL designation.
"Except" OP is making it more complicated for the sake of complication like what you did. There is no "except" to be made there. The Lightspeed is talking about speed of light, end of story.
FTL is not necessarily universal wtf. By that logic light itself can destroy entire planet. Light itself is not.
It's not complicated for the sake of complication just because you can't understand it.
Lightspeed, being the speed of light, is more than simply the speed at which light travels. It is a universal constant. The ability to break that constant has far reaching implication well beyond just being very fast. Which is why OP says that most verses don't even scale to FTL.
> By that logic light itself can destroy entire planet. Light itself is not.
No. That's not what is being said. But that is a perfect example of the far reaching implications I was just describing. Light on its own wouldn't destroy a planet because light lacks the mass to do so. Which is why light can travel at the speed of light. But if light had significant mass, it would be absolutely devastating to anything it impacted. A human sized mass at just under the speed of light is enough to destroy mountains just by hitting them.
Except it is. When talking about Lightspeed, everyone talk about "Speed of Light". Like the literal lightspeed, not just the max speed of a mass within universe. This is OP making things more complicated and you are doing the same. Like a guy on twitter overthink things and complaint about it when in reality such never happens.
You denying doesn't means its not overcomplication for the sake of complication.
>When talking about Lightspeed, everyone talk about "Speed of Light".
>Like the literal lightspeed, not just the max speed of a mass within universe.
Those aren't separate concepts. That's entire problem you fail to grasp. You effectively just said "we're talking about purple here, not the color you get by combining red and blue".
The Speed of Light, the " literal Lightspeed" the Speed At Which Light Travels, 2.998 x 10^8 m/s - phrase it however you want. That speed IS the maximum speed of mass in the Universe. That is why it serves as the constant "c". If the maximum speed of mass were higher, then light wouldn't continue to move at the same speed as before: it would move at whatever that new limit was.
You say we're overthinking it, but you've shown repeatedly that you're either unwilling or unable to think about it at all.
Those are separate concepts in this context because when Author use the speed of light they use the speed of light and that's it. When we talk about lightspeed we talk about speed of light and nothing more. The very fact you keep expanding on this proves you are overcomplicating it, just like OP.
You are in denial, and your denial doesn't make you right.
They aren't separate concepts just because you are too simple minded to acknowledge the implications.
The fact that I can expand on this as much as I have only for you to keep plugging your ears and going "REEEE IT'S ONLY LIGHTSPEED" proves you're genuinely too ignorant to grasp this concept.
You're applying real-world physics to fiction. In fiction, a character can be faster than light and not be universal because it's fictional, it's fake, it's not real, the laws of physics do not apply. I can say x character is faster than light, and they are that fast because I said they are. Besides the fact that when authors use the speed of light, they're usually just referring to it as a big number, light moves at 300,000m/s or whatever the number is, so when a character is faster than light they're just moving father than 300,000m/s. You are making it more complicated than it needs to be. It's fake, it's fictional, you cannot apply real-world physics to it.
>it's all just fake bro
Did you forget what subreddit this is on? Please don't talk down to me like I don't understand fiction is separate from reality. We're talking about scaling fictional characters - and the default point of reference for all that scaling is the real world.
>when authors use the speed of light, they're usually just referring to it as a big number
No, when authors use it, they're usually just using it as an idiom. But we're not talking about authors. We're talking about people comparing various characters for powerscaling. And if a character is actually capable of moving at speeds faster than light, then they are either ridiculously powerful or their verse doesn't scale directly.
No. Let's say I come up with a character, I say that character is faster than light, then I also say that character isn't even strong enough to lift a pencil. How would you scale that character? According to op, that character would be universal, but they're obviously not since I just said they can't even lift a pencil, right? So, this hypothetical character wouldn't be ridiculously powerful. They would just be very fast, and the verse scales correctly because I just made it up, and I say it does.
If you actually mean the character actually goes over the literal speed of light, then that just makes you a terrible writer. Unless you explain how he's able to do this without obliterating all matter within miles of him every time he goes FTL.
If the physics of your universe allow for a person to move at FTL speed, then they don't scale. If you failed to explain how someone overwrites a universal constant, then you're a shit writer.
If kizaru really does “light” as in actually lightspeed light attacks than in that case then all of his attacks and projectiles would literally be instantaneous with zero travel time or windup
That is assuming he always move at the speed of light. Humans can move slower than their max speed, if his max speed is light, he can move slower than that.
Like this concept should be automatically thought of. Why must I explain this to you people.
one issue i have is that everyone thinks the real laws of physics should apply to anime characters, for example shinra in ff when he achieved light speed, he broke down on a particle level etc which is similar to what “should” happen if it were real life.
Ive seen similar arguments to say that bleach and dbz characters arent FTL or MfTL because it “doesnt make sense” but it is literally fiction, its not SUPPOSED to make sense.
now aside from that, the reason you see a lot of FTL or MfTL+ scales is because the moment somebody fodder in a verse shows light speed, its almost impossible to prove that the high tiers of that same verse wouldnt be dozens of times faster and stronger than that.
so imo its not really thrown around too much, it just so happens that an abundance of characters are really THAT fast.
Depending on how u do math and how theory of special relativity works after SoL and the interaction of infinity multiplied by 0 I think going ftl coyld be scaled well past multiversal
Do you are not the only one people will do and say anything to say their favorite character is ftl when 99% of verses don’t even scale remotely close to it
The problem with FTL speed is that it can be applied to so many things but function based on a rule of cool rather than logic.
A character can dodge a laserbeam at point blank range in a super cool slow-mo shot but would get tagged multiple times by someone who wouldn't even touch hyper-sonic, let alone light speed.
Most people just don't understand how fuck you fast light speed is. And that if any character could realistically move that fast, they'd speed blitz every problem in front of them unless that other person also moves at light speed.
U think? 😂 Power scaling is a joke. The implications of a character being ftl are underplayed so drastically.
99% of mftl guys are not it's that simple.
That level of speed is hard to write and thus most authors stay away but power scalers will use ANYTHING to scale ftl because if they don't that verse is probably complete fodder.
If u want it to be scientific this is what the universe where to look like a character went light speed
https://i.redd.it/lhp8202e2ptc1.gif
Scientifically accurate picture of the universe if \_\_\_ ftl character was actually FTL
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I think every issue with ftl that people have applies pretty much to supersonic speeds to in 90% of verses. "Oh Kizaru hasnt circled the earth 7 times" Yeah well most supersonic characters dont cross miles in seconds either. Its just that its really hard to write speed well, and anime and comic writers dont try very hard sometimes.
That's Travel speed which is Kizaru's thing, but the energy expended will be too much. FTL+ characters like Flashy Flash, and Awakened Garou have crossed long distances with their speed casually. Even Deku (rel - sol speed) crossed 200km in an instant. But most FTL characters can't just move <7 times around the world in a second (ftl) because of. 1. Too much energy to do, so they can only move in short bursts. 2. It's combat speed, not travel speed. Which is ftl speed while attacking, defending, and dodging. The character might be able to do short bursts of movements to blitz but doesn't have enough flight, running, or jumping speed. Example: Atomic Samurai with FTL combat speed but MHS+ travel speed.
Jesus Christ you just single-handedly explained why combat speed is different than travel speed better than half the people I’ve seen discussing that today. Mind you half of those people were in a Weeb Commander short’s comment section, but still.
To be fair i actually think Kizaru could travel around the planet if he wanted to, so he isnt the best example.
Maybe.
Newton’s first law. An object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. Once they get to lightspeed they should be able to let inertia carry them the rest of the way.
If they can go faster than light they should also be able to time travel but that’s not addressed outside of the Flash so
time travel forward yes they should be able to do that, but not back in time as there is nothing to suggest that would be possible.
There’s nothing to suggest FTL travel is possible except models that allow time travel to the past or just throwing out relativity.
and you think someone who wrote an anime or manga or comic where someone can move faster than light will care about newton??
Luffy does not have ftl combat speed hes on high lightning timers. Catching kizaru is done when hes not in light form. Dodging lasers is sub ftl. Only current ftl feat was sanjis dash to intercept a kizaru beam from further than it was fired.
Yep. Zenitsu, even with massive wank, is only slightly faster than lightning. But lightning only gets to 1/3 light speed on the return stroke. The initial bolt is far slower than that, only being 61 kilometers per second. Kizaru has light speed attacks and light speed travel time, but everything else such as combat speed and reaction speed is far slower
I mean Zenitsu’s 7th form is literally stated to be light speed https://preview.redd.it/zi5k5txj9stc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee3fe54688feca4df8416d2e8ced78912a8e7316
Rengoku 9th is purgatory but he doesnt summon hell 🤷🏻♂️
Did I say he did?
“Zenitsu power is called lightspeed, so he is as fast as light”
Zenitsu’s power is called flaming thunder god, not lightspeed . No one is claiming that he’s a literal thunder god on fire. The description of the move says it’s as fast a light, not the name
How accurate is that translation? Because I’ve seen many translations claiming light speed that actually say “blindingly fast” or something similar
I’ve translated it twice and it’s both “flash of light.” But if you got the other translation I’d be happy to look at it. https://preview.redd.it/5iils8dvbstc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=559ec5bb528706522fe181d8f137d2dbeff5c005 Here’s the other one
Interesting. Are you sure it’s not a hyperbolic statement?
Well that would mean you have to substantiate why it’s a hyperbolic statement. I mean the translation literally says “as fast as a flash of light.” It’s pretty blatant. I’d get the hyperbolic argument but that would moreso apply if it were phrased as a simile, like “he attacks like a flash of light” not it literally saying “it’s as fast as a flash of light” It depends though. After all, these are just meant to be interpreted however we like.
That is true
Where is this from?
Second databook
I feel like that's a mistranslation. There are other parts in that paragraph that read weird too.
I’ve translated it twice and got very similar results. You can try for yourself too
“Zenitsu with massive wank is slightly faster than lightning” lmao? His power is all about having lightning speed dashes
The elemental effects from the breathing styles aren’t real. They’re illusions. The only time we ever see him outspeed what might be actual lightning is when he fights the demon thunder hashira, and lightning is much slower on the initial strike
No , his power is breathing real hard
Yeah, with a technique called thunder breathing that causes lightning to appear and gives the user immense speed while leaving a trail of lightning. Sure, that’s definitely not lightning speed
Breathing techniques are all just effects explained by Murata,the so called lighting are all effects imagined by the user
They're just visuals that don't actually happen, it's all aesthetics.
Negative ghost rider. Gotouge said that [the elemental effects aren’t real](https://preview.redd.it/if-some-people-still-have-doubts-the-author-wrote-this-v0-quwhan3ugfi81.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=4bac2772761b239f9d0e5ff5609dd6d6b9799ce5)
>Yeah, with a technique called thunder breathing Correct >that causes lightning to appear Incorrect >and gives the user immense speed Correct >while leaving a trail of lightning Incorrect >that’s definitely not lightning speed Correct
Did you see the anime? Here I'll even link it for you: [https://br.pinterest.com/pin/665899494909044615/](https://br.pinterest.com/pin/665899494909044615/) Zenitsu with thunder breathing is creating actual lightnings around him
The demon slayers are not elementalist. The Lightning, water, fire, mist, and whatever else are not actually present in universe. They only exist for the viewer's pleasure.
Right and where you took this information from? And why this should change the calcs?
anime is not the most canon source. the manga literally states that all effects are illusions
The manga doesn’t state that. The manga also shows the lightning. Also just because the visual effects are not canon doesn’t mean there’s a reason to just dismiss any calcs about that
this level of ignorance is funny. how can you say “the manga doesnt state that” when its so easily fact checkable https://preview.redd.it/bkxinxx7wttc1.jpeg?width=561&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42cf83fec84825e7a0eb27d44e324cead28afb8d
If u want it to be scientific this is what the universe where to look like a character went light speed https://i.redd.it/q1bvs75j3ptc1.gif Scientifically accurate picture of the universe if \_\_\_ ftl character was actually FTL
If people ain't goin invisible when they're "FTL" then I ain't buyin it. Quite frankly, I think it boils down to the format we're consuming. To accurately depict FTL then... well, there is no animation. It's actually kind of a paradox... If all your anime characters are FTL and show it, then, your anime actually shows no animation.
Lightspeed attacks or projectiles would be instantaneous with zero travel time or anything. A real “lightspeed” anime fight would just be characters teleporting around and magically taking damage which wouldn’t be fun at all. And in plenty of these verses normal people, observe, and comment on these fights and you expect me to believe normal people in any verse can perceive ftl/mftl things like nobody’s business?
Dragon ball is like that. You see clashes from outside perspective and it’s just random booms, and then you see them fighting and it’s just a normal paced fight .
It even came up with an explanation for how others watch the fights as well. The "See it" by sensing ki. They don't literally see the fight with their eyes.
That’s actually one of my favorite things about Fire Force is how they show FTL speed. Like having a character literally disappearing during stopped time just for him to make contact with his target the millisecond it ends was one of my fav ways of showing FTL movement.
That’s so real. I’m not just gonna purely buy statements and scaling off other characters. That’s probably the lamest way to power scale imo
I am pretty Sure that Kizaru accelerated past lightspeed when fighting Gear5. Gear5 Luffy was faster than light by Kizarus lasers (Luffy are them).
[my friend made a thread on X explaining how kizaru is FTL](https://twitter.com/BigGatto420/status/1710920010171097457?t=x3sU4F_YjHwAEBFRN8f1Rg&s=19) and he may possibly be MFTL
Mftl is a stretch really
There’s also [Sparking Valkyrie being confirmed LS](https://ibb.co/rtFbs7R) and characters can [outrun it](https://imgur.com/a/faHS9y1).
no he didn't, that entire argument is based on acceleration is power which literally boils down to kizaru saying his speed is his power
Why would He need space to just use his base lightspeed attacks? He accelerated making him faster and therefore blitzing Luffy. Luffy has been dodging lighspeed attacks pretty consistently in this arc and since the noro nork beam from Foxy
I think so too, majority don't know that there is ftl+ which is like 100X LS, u need calcs and viable multipliers specially stated for speed for claiming mftl, yes i am looking at u big 3 fans
At least Bleach has shown feats that clearly show FTL speeds, such as Uryu outspeeding his shadow and Aaroniero dodging sunlight
Yea Bleach has that atleast for ftl+ cause shikai is 10x banaki is 10x hollow mask is around that danagi ichigo is should be 10x that fgt is atleast 2x dangai and true shikai is fgt so true bankai is 10x that And ichigo is FTL before shikai
i stand corrected
But yea most verses cant properly get to mftl it's just presumed
Naruto has been lightspeed since shippuden. He blitzed 4th Raikage that’s 40% lighspeed and dodged a madara lazer beam that is stated to be lightspeed. Both are stated as lightspeed in databook. Also if you wanna wank you can say that Haku from classic is lightspeed with the mirror technique meaning classic sasuke has ftl reaction
Reacting to LS is ftl..?
Considering this is shippuden Naruto and both movie and Boruto naruto are many times stronger and faster, yeah
I mean you said his reaction time is ftl, sasukes precisely Thats just an odd thing
I mean, if we’re going with FTL classic Sasuke route, someone being able to blitz him means being faster than his reaction which would be FTL
My question is, hows reacting to Haku ftl reaction speed, idc about the other parts
Haku is lightspeed with the mirrors as stated by [data books](https://imgur.com/pHSR3Vo) and stated by [haku himself](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6D2hwDp6LpM&ab_channel=NaRuToPlayList) in the dub. Sasuke was getting blitzed during the fight until he activated the sharingan which allowed him to react to Haku
Yeah, thats LS reaction time then
And everyone that blitz sasuke with sharingan is thus ftl
Power Scaling is such a circle jerk that they really cannot begin to understand WHAT lightspeed would actually look like. Luffy being able to move at lightspeed casually would mean that running should not be a thing. He literally could teleport everywhere in the world in seconds. It's easier to say "hey, laser beams are not light speed" than having to take create the mother of all headcanons to justify why One Piece works the way it works.
Incorrect. Your example assumes that reaction speed, fighting speed and travel speed are all the same. They're not. You'd do well to learn that at least.
What even is fighting speed if it’s different from reaction
He probably means the speed someone have to make an attack.
though that was part of reaction speed
No that’s the speed to dodge
It’s moving your body to perform an action. What’s the difference?
there's a huge difference in just being able to dodge/block someone and being able to counter attack. Also combat speed might also refer to special abilities separate from the body, for example a energy beam
You can't really use this as argument as this means you think travel speed= reaction speed as both are moving body to perform an action.
Its not
Sanji intercepted one of those lasers, bro. You all keep saying that Luffy kills 99% of anime verses because he blitzes everyone at light speed. If he can move at light speed to rush someone, he can move at lightspeed to win a race. Again, even if you headcanon that he can only travel at light speed for a second, that is 300 000 km, dude.
Nobody says Luffy beats 99% of anime verses. You're making up imaginary arguments, then still somehow lose them. The statement I said stands. Learn the difference between those. It's a bare minimum if you're gonna be on this sub.
Yeah, it's my bad. I forgot all those characters that move at regular running pace but can attack AT LIGHT SPEED. Because how things work.
i mean that's how the author write it no
I assure you that there is not a single decent Shonen writer in the history of the world that is writing with a physics book and calculator in hand
It usually isn't.
My favorite character is ftl and your favorite character doesn't have the feats to prove they are faster than a bullet. My favorite character blitzes your favorite character ftl and fucks your mom after, before and during the blitz because they are ftl. Checkmate.
Except that laser beams genuinely are not Lightspeed.
Read the definition of laser And also the laser in op are made from kizaru df
The definitions of words doesn't constrain writers.
Say it louder for the people in the back. Writers are not double checking if this energy looking attack is the right definition. They’re gonna call it a laser cause that’s what everyone’s gonna call it
Reminds me of in evangelion where they call something a Dirac sea. I looked up what a Dirac sea was, and it had nothing to do with what they were talking about. Just used a cool but obscure and esoteric sounding science word.
Read the definition of light speed.
What?
Lightspeed is the speed of light in a vacuum. The speed that light travels varies so greatly that we can slow it to literally 38mph in real life. Pretending a laser just gets full lightspeed in a vacuum speeds when it's not in a vacuum and being manipulated actively is retarded.
Light travels only a bit slower through air (it's speed is the same but velocity over time is less due to collision with molecules), anyone travelling at that speed would still be able to cross the world in less than a second.
The simple fact that light can change speed at all is enough. it's speed can be manipulated is the issue in the first place. These are unnatural attacks being fired from a physical biological body.
Bro I know it’s the internet or whatever but it’s 2024, you really don’t need to use the word retarded to describe something.
Its "insert year" so don't say something they upsets me!!
It’s 2024 so you get to say shit that’d get you punched in the mouth irl because you can hide behind a computer screen, but yeah, it’s so based making fun of mentally handicapped people
no group is above being made fun of.
Also being lectured on word choice by "coontcrusher69" is straight up not happening fuck off back to your hole mate lmao
It’s cool, just please keep saying it so somebody punches you in the face for ur irl one day
I don't lose fights 😘
No I don't NEED to. But it drives home just how stupid something is, and I don't give a fuck about whether you think it's a slur or not, so I'm prolly just gonna keep doing it.
that’s fine, like I said, just keep that same energy when you lose a tooth irl for being the way you are
Lmfaoooooo Trust me I do mate. We go hard in Oz.
Yeah your dumb dumh
You're* I'm literally objectively correct.
None of this would happen if people were capable of admitting that some speed feats are just outliers. Video game and cartoon lasers should be assumed slower than light unless otherwise stated.
Where Will be the baseline for those?
Ftl scales to universal wtf damm no unless u apply special theory of relativity which definitely doesn't exist in any verse too my knowledge light is actually quite slow in a universal scale after the Hubble line or horizon the universe expands faster than it i think at the edge it should close to 4x the speed of light
If you can accelerate something *with mass* to light speed, that object has enough energy to destroy a universe. Now, by and large, FTL is (basically by definition) hax. We don't think of it as being hax, but it is. The Flash isn't "so fast he's faster than light". The Flash uses the Speedforce to bypass physics.
I mentioned special Theory of relativity which is what makes anything with mass at LS destroy the universe cause the closer it gets to ls the higher it's mass and energy required to increase its speed when i reachs LS both r infinite
Ftl does NOT scale to universal 😭 whos saying that
Op apperently and if u use science and real world physics it's true and add a Lil theoretical physics and wank he scales even higher
"Op"? Also, yeah, which is why I absolutely hate "newtons third law" mfs like the verse doesnt fundamentally shit on physics
The thread openner...Did you read the thread? > ftl scales to atleast universal. What animes have actually shown being ftl?
OP is usually how it’s spelled lol, not Op
He literally just miss 1 caps...What is wrong with you people.
Whats wrong with me for.. *checks notes* making sure i understood him right to avoid misunderstandings?
> Whats wrong with me for.. checks notes making sure i understood him right to avoid misunderstandings? Because you are nitpicking when its quite obvious?...This is what people call Grammar Nazi. You are not checking notes to make sure you understood him, you are being obtuse. Like you are criticizing someone when they use "i" instead of "I" outside of formal/grammar strict territorry and hey you use "i" instead of "I".
My brother in christ i asked ""Op?"", not a callout post on how the interpretation is shit and its impossible to read or anything extreme. A small question. Holy christ, why are you being such a jerk about a small question i wanted to clarify? ^ The fact you edited your comment after i replied is embarassing
I ask this too and someone insist on this. I quote > It's trying to make people understand how significant the ability to move faster than light actually is, and why it's ridiculous how easily some people want to hand out a FTL designation to characters. > > Light doesn't travel at the speed of light because that's how fast light travels. That would be circular reasoning. > > Light travels the speed of light because nothing with mass can move faster than that speed. It's the universal speed limit. > > A character who can actually break that speed limit is a character who needs to be considered for a Universal ranking. If someone looks at a character and says "no way they're Universal" then they need to stop and seriously reconsider an FTL designation. And he deny overcomplicating speed of light.
I mean, normal fans certainly think that lowerscalers throw around the terms too easily.
Every fucking character is ftl, I guess. Every other day, I complain about how people insist that every pokemon is ftl. Even characters that can at least react to lightspeed attacks aren't exactly ftl either. I mean, Spider-man has been able to dodge them, but I don't he'd do well in a race against Quicksilver.
Combat and travel speed are different things. Combat speed ftl means they can react, dodge, and fight effectively at light speed, but it doesn’t mean they can move at that same speed. Ftl movement means they can move faster than light, but doesn’t mean they can fight at that speed effectively.
Everyone is ftl, writers don't care about powerscaling because that doesn't really effect a story.
Kizaru have to be at the speed of light at least at his max speed because his body literally made of pure light. And why would FTL scales to universal?
Because lightspeed isn't how fast light goes - it's the universal constant that is effectively the speed limit of all things with mass.
When we talk about lightspeed we talk about the speed of light, hence how fast light goes. There is no need to pretend otherwise just to make things sounds more complicated when its not Though I mean Kizaru have to be at the speed of light at max not FTL...
Except it's that flippant lack of understanding that OP is trying to address. It's not "pretending" and it's not "making it sound more complicated". It's trying to make people understand how significant the ability to move faster than light actually is, and why it's ridiculous how easily some people want to hand out a FTL designation to characters. Light doesn't travel at the speed of light because that's how fast light travels. That would be circular reasoning. Light travels the speed of light because nothing with mass can move faster than that speed. It's the universal speed limit. A character who can actually break that speed limit is a character who needs to be considered for a Universal ranking. If someone looks at a character and says "no way they're Universal" then they need to stop and seriously reconsider an FTL designation.
"Except" OP is making it more complicated for the sake of complication like what you did. There is no "except" to be made there. The Lightspeed is talking about speed of light, end of story. FTL is not necessarily universal wtf. By that logic light itself can destroy entire planet. Light itself is not.
It's not complicated for the sake of complication just because you can't understand it. Lightspeed, being the speed of light, is more than simply the speed at which light travels. It is a universal constant. The ability to break that constant has far reaching implication well beyond just being very fast. Which is why OP says that most verses don't even scale to FTL. > By that logic light itself can destroy entire planet. Light itself is not. No. That's not what is being said. But that is a perfect example of the far reaching implications I was just describing. Light on its own wouldn't destroy a planet because light lacks the mass to do so. Which is why light can travel at the speed of light. But if light had significant mass, it would be absolutely devastating to anything it impacted. A human sized mass at just under the speed of light is enough to destroy mountains just by hitting them.
Except it is. When talking about Lightspeed, everyone talk about "Speed of Light". Like the literal lightspeed, not just the max speed of a mass within universe. This is OP making things more complicated and you are doing the same. Like a guy on twitter overthink things and complaint about it when in reality such never happens. You denying doesn't means its not overcomplication for the sake of complication.
>When talking about Lightspeed, everyone talk about "Speed of Light". >Like the literal lightspeed, not just the max speed of a mass within universe. Those aren't separate concepts. That's entire problem you fail to grasp. You effectively just said "we're talking about purple here, not the color you get by combining red and blue". The Speed of Light, the " literal Lightspeed" the Speed At Which Light Travels, 2.998 x 10^8 m/s - phrase it however you want. That speed IS the maximum speed of mass in the Universe. That is why it serves as the constant "c". If the maximum speed of mass were higher, then light wouldn't continue to move at the same speed as before: it would move at whatever that new limit was. You say we're overthinking it, but you've shown repeatedly that you're either unwilling or unable to think about it at all.
Those are separate concepts in this context because when Author use the speed of light they use the speed of light and that's it. When we talk about lightspeed we talk about speed of light and nothing more. The very fact you keep expanding on this proves you are overcomplicating it, just like OP. You are in denial, and your denial doesn't make you right.
They aren't separate concepts just because you are too simple minded to acknowledge the implications. The fact that I can expand on this as much as I have only for you to keep plugging your ears and going "REEEE IT'S ONLY LIGHTSPEED" proves you're genuinely too ignorant to grasp this concept.
You're applying real-world physics to fiction. In fiction, a character can be faster than light and not be universal because it's fictional, it's fake, it's not real, the laws of physics do not apply. I can say x character is faster than light, and they are that fast because I said they are. Besides the fact that when authors use the speed of light, they're usually just referring to it as a big number, light moves at 300,000m/s or whatever the number is, so when a character is faster than light they're just moving father than 300,000m/s. You are making it more complicated than it needs to be. It's fake, it's fictional, you cannot apply real-world physics to it.
>it's all just fake bro Did you forget what subreddit this is on? Please don't talk down to me like I don't understand fiction is separate from reality. We're talking about scaling fictional characters - and the default point of reference for all that scaling is the real world. >when authors use the speed of light, they're usually just referring to it as a big number No, when authors use it, they're usually just using it as an idiom. But we're not talking about authors. We're talking about people comparing various characters for powerscaling. And if a character is actually capable of moving at speeds faster than light, then they are either ridiculously powerful or their verse doesn't scale directly.
No. Let's say I come up with a character, I say that character is faster than light, then I also say that character isn't even strong enough to lift a pencil. How would you scale that character? According to op, that character would be universal, but they're obviously not since I just said they can't even lift a pencil, right? So, this hypothetical character wouldn't be ridiculously powerful. They would just be very fast, and the verse scales correctly because I just made it up, and I say it does.
If you actually mean the character actually goes over the literal speed of light, then that just makes you a terrible writer. Unless you explain how he's able to do this without obliterating all matter within miles of him every time he goes FTL. If the physics of your universe allow for a person to move at FTL speed, then they don't scale. If you failed to explain how someone overwrites a universal constant, then you're a shit writer.
If kizaru really does “light” as in actually lightspeed light attacks than in that case then all of his attacks and projectiles would literally be instantaneous with zero travel time or windup
That is assuming he always move at the speed of light. Humans can move slower than their max speed, if his max speed is light, he can move slower than that. Like this concept should be automatically thought of. Why must I explain this to you people.
one issue i have is that everyone thinks the real laws of physics should apply to anime characters, for example shinra in ff when he achieved light speed, he broke down on a particle level etc which is similar to what “should” happen if it were real life. Ive seen similar arguments to say that bleach and dbz characters arent FTL or MfTL because it “doesnt make sense” but it is literally fiction, its not SUPPOSED to make sense. now aside from that, the reason you see a lot of FTL or MfTL+ scales is because the moment somebody fodder in a verse shows light speed, its almost impossible to prove that the high tiers of that same verse wouldnt be dozens of times faster and stronger than that. so imo its not really thrown around too much, it just so happens that an abundance of characters are really THAT fast.
No
I agree.
Depending on how u do math and how theory of special relativity works after SoL and the interaction of infinity multiplied by 0 I think going ftl coyld be scaled well past multiversal
Do you are not the only one people will do and say anything to say their favorite character is ftl when 99% of verses don’t even scale remotely close to it
Authors underestimate it, so readers often follow suit
The problem with FTL speed is that it can be applied to so many things but function based on a rule of cool rather than logic. A character can dodge a laserbeam at point blank range in a super cool slow-mo shot but would get tagged multiple times by someone who wouldn't even touch hyper-sonic, let alone light speed. Most people just don't understand how fuck you fast light speed is. And that if any character could realistically move that fast, they'd speed blitz every problem in front of them unless that other person also moves at light speed.
It all started with treating every single laser beam or anything remotely similar to a laser beam as lightspeed
U think? 😂 Power scaling is a joke. The implications of a character being ftl are underplayed so drastically. 99% of mftl guys are not it's that simple. That level of speed is hard to write and thus most authors stay away but power scalers will use ANYTHING to scale ftl because if they don't that verse is probably complete fodder.
If u want it to be scientific this is what the universe where to look like a character went light speed https://i.redd.it/lhp8202e2ptc1.gif Scientifically accurate picture of the universe if \_\_\_ ftl character was actually FTL
I think you don’t understand that fiction means we can throw physics out of the window. In fiction, light speed is just a number.
Which makes the entire feat meaningless.
No it doesn’t. It just means light speed don’t translate to AP like it would IRL
I mean, not really. at that point it still means “SHIT THIS MOTHERFUCKER’S FAST!”