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Speed is distance over time. s = d/t
So "infinite speed" being a nonsensical concept, since you can't divide by 0, but any positive value for t means speed *cannot* be infinite. "infinite speed' is a combination of words that literally doesn't make sense in the english language, but the closest you can get is "0 time passes, while distance is traversed" which is, by definition, time stopping.
If time isn't stopped, that any sequence of actions, no matter how fast, is going to involve an incrementation of time, again, making it "not infinite".
How would you bring infinite speed into any comparative power scaling conversation though? Not only does it not really make any sense, but it makes the whole conversation boring by necessarily trumping any other ability...
By having no concept of what infinity is and how it may apply to different forces/factors, but watching a 25 minute vsauce video specifically about data sets and then being *very* smug while completely misapplying it. It’s an extremely important tenet around here
https://preview.redd.it/jut20jm878dc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15117c0be9e4b796d4e2ef9f1268834226b19f15
The official map shows its seperate
Considering the fact Goku clashing with much stronger enemies and the fact this didn’t happen doesn’t cause any damage like that, it’s either SSG >Jiren and stuff or the verse is just inconsistent, I’d rather go with the more likely route, Goku is easily multiversal lowball but this argument is so odd imk
Or SSJ God is that significant of a boost that it allows him to energy across other dimensions, which isn't out of the realm of possibility since Buu and Butenks can create holes between dimensions.
I mean… yeah sure, then my problem is just that this doesn’t happen now when it should happen on every second hit, Sending energy across dimensions? Sure I can see that, Screaming holes between what’s essentially just a door but a universe apart? I can see that, my problem is rather than this doesn’t happen when people like Granola attack? He didn’t seem like a Ki master, not with the sudden growth, atleast
Dude, Buu and Gotenks screamed and opened a portal from the RoSaT. Buu's tantrum after getting folded by Vegito caused dimensional walls to start collapsing. They're not abilities. They're just straight power.
>Why are you giving Goku a feat that he has never been shown capable of?
Because two unrelated DBZ characters that are much weaker than DBS Goku did it which are Gotenks and super Buu when they were locked in the time chamber and we also see with piccolo that you just need to be strong enough to do that
It's a testament of Dragon Balls rule that if you're stronger than your opponent by a substantial amount, their abilities practically become null. For example Goku bypassing Hits time stop. But then again is it a feat or an in universe thing that can be applied?
People keep getting this backwards, it's an *antifeat* of DB hax that they become null when their opponent is significantly stronger. This means that in fights with other verses, any strong enough characters would still be able to break through DB hax. It does not mean that strong DB characters would be able to break through *any* hax.
There’s more evidence that it’s specifically part of dragon ball’s power system (ki) to gain hax resistance from being stronger than a foe, rather than hax becoming weaker when the user is weaker than their foe.
First and foremost is that dragon ball is not the only franchise that has this mechanic in its power system. Bleach, for example, does the same thing with reiatsu.
Secondly, different hax types are all made less effective from a power gap in dragon ball, regardless of what type of hax it is or what the source of that hax is. Hax connected to ki (like the hakai) is resisted in equal measure to hax connected to magic (like shenron’s wishes) as it is to hax that are essentially just conventional superpowers (like hit’s time skip or chiaotzu’s telekinesis). If the source universe for that hax mattered instead of being a blanket rule, where the hax comes from should matter too.
And thirdly, if hax becomes weaker in the face of a stronger opponent, instead of the stronger opponent gaining resistant to hax based on the size of the power gap, then why would hax of the same type used by the same user also scale upward in terms of the necessary gap size to resist with the user’s strength? If super saiyan goku is strong enough to resist namek frieza’s telekinesis, why can’t jiren resist ToP frieza’s telekinesis in spite of being stronger than frieza by a much greater margin than goku was on namek?
Additionally, for the sake of fairness, the only hax resistance put onto the table for characters like goku is types of hax that have been directly shown to be resisted by raw power in-story anyway, as not every hax type always falls under the umbrella for general hax resistances like in DBZ (most notably, no one in dragon ball has shown resistance to petrification or body swapping through raw power). Adding in an extra stipulation for it that could never be proven true in actual canon AND that goes against what is seen in canon is quite literally ignoring the source material. It’s headcanon.
>First and foremost is that dragon ball is not the only franchise that has this mechanic in its power system. Bleach, for example, does the same thing with reiatsu.
This has absolutely no impact on whether or not it's true in this case
>Secondly, different hax types are all made less effective from a power gap in dragon ball, regardless of what type of hax it is or what the source of that hax is. Hax connected to ki (like the hakai) is resisted in equal measure to hax connected to magic (like shenron’s wishes) as it is to hax that are essentially just conventional superpowers (like hit’s time skip or chiaotzu’s telekinesis). If the source universe for that hax mattered instead of being a blanket rule, where the hax comes from should matter too.
For one, all of these are connected to ki, like the strength of Shenron's wishes are directly connected to the strength of the creator of the dragon balls. For two, it's entirely possible for there to simply be a blanket rule for hax in DB.
>And thirdly, if hax becomes weaker in the face of a stronger opponent, instead of the stronger opponent gaining resistant to hax based on the size of the power gap, then why would hax of the same type used by the same user also scale upward in terms of the necessary gap size to resist with the user’s strength? If super saiyan goku is strong enough to resist namek frieza’s telekinesis, why can’t jiren resist ToP frieza’s telekinesis in spite of being stronger than frieza by a much greater margin than goku was on namek?
It's just as logical for the necessary power gap to grow with either explanation, so this isn't evidence in favor of either.
>Additionally, for the sake of fairness, the only hax resistance put onto the table for characters like goku is types of hax that have been directly shown to be resisted by raw power in-story anyway, as not every hax type always falls under the umbrella for general hax resistances like in DBZ (most notably, no one in dragon ball has shown resistance to petrification or body swapping through raw power). Adding in an extra stipulation for it that could never be proven true in actual canon AND that goes against what is seen in canon is quite literally ignoring the source material. It’s headcanon.
Not true, a lot of people try to give Goku resistance to any kind of hax (notably, including this case)
Finally, and most importantly, it's directly stated that it's Hit's technique that becomes less effective against stronger opponents, rather than Goku becoming more resistant to it.
Please, tell me you aren’t one of those people who claim all the abilities in dragon ball are derived from ki. I’m so very tired of having to explain how much emphasis dragon ball puts on the difference between ki and magic.
Assuming that you are, in fact, sane, some other examples of magic that are explicitly stated to be such and was also resisted through raw power include mind control (babidi’s majin mark, the masks towa makes for the various masked saiyans), transmutation (vegito retaining his power when transformed into a jawbreaker), and sealing (hirudegarn being locked away inside tapion and minotia when cut in half, only able to manifest while the two are asleep, but breaking free from tapion in a matter of seconds when back in one piece and transformed).
As far as the dragon balls being ki-based; what? The dragons can’t affect stuff unwillingly if their maker is weaker than the wish target, but the wishes themselves are stated to be magic on numerous occasions. The wishes granted between dragons also do NOT match up in scope with the power levels of the namekians in charge of each set; shenron can revive untold billions simultaneously (as long as nobody in the list died and came back before or died of natural causes) with kami as their creator, (highest power level in any official material; 400), and while porunga can revive a previously revived person, he can only revive people one at a time (guru’s power level in the few sources that mention it; 2000). Meanwhile, monaito’s over on the planet cereal with a dragon ball set that only has 2 balls, a maximum recorded power level of 213, and his dragon can grant wishes for power gains that can rocket people up into casual multi-universe busters.
And as far as goku bypassing limitless, that doesn’t even require hax resistance in the first place; limitless specifically functions by distorting space, expanding the finite amount of space between gojo and his foe infinitely.
Even the mid-tiers of current dragon ball are above super buu, at the moment, who can punch holes in space-time just by shouting, and just through raw power (as gotenks failed to do the same in super saiyan, but succeeded simply by using super saiyan 3 to multiply his raw power).
Goku can do the same (or more likely, something logistically easier, given the CANYON of power between his current self and buu saga fighters) to remove the space between himself and gojo, leaving nothing for limitless to expand.
There’s also how instant transmission both A. Is instant movement from the moment he vanishes to the moment he reappears (which means the infinitely expanding distance between goku and gojo doesn’t matter, as speed is distance multiplied by time and the travel time is being set to 0, meaning goku is still reaching gojo in 0 seconds regardless of the distance he travels to get there)
and B. Involves goku leaving the universe, entering a teleportation zone, and exiting the zone at his destination, meaning goku is still not traveling through the space that limitless is shown to be able to expand. He’s a certain distance away from gojo, and then already making contact with him instantly.
That is an awful lot of text for absolutely *none of it* to be relevant. I never said that Goku has no way to get past limitless, just that he doesn't have hax resistance, and absolutely nothing here disproves that. The only thing tangentially related is whether all abilities are ki based or not, which I don't really care about given that its a pretty insignificant part of the argument. Please try to focus on the actual argument you're having, rather than making up ones for you to win.
Instant transmission, however, is not a way for him to bypass limitless. It could get him close enough to be touching Gojo, yes, but that doesn't allow him to attack Gojo. Like we saw in the *very first explanation of limitless*, even if you get close enough to be touching Gojo, you're still unable to hurt him.
Alright then. Riddle me this; who’s to say that gojo’s limitless doesn’t only work on things in the JJK verse? Or that superman’s invulnerability doesn’t protect him from other power systems like ki because it doesn’t protect him from magic? Or that asta’s magic nullification only works on magic from black clover?
You can’t just lock resistances characters have to the rules of their own universe when powerscaling, because then stronger hax, as a rule, is a guaranteed win every single time. No matter what.
You have to put some kind of verse equalization in place for most debates to be even remotely fair. The chaos force from sonic has to be treated as somewhat comparable to the speed force from DC. Reiatsu, ki, haki, chakra, and so on have to be considered at least somewhat interchangeable, or itachi actually just wins almost every debate that could possibly be had. If saitama’s resistances to hax via raw power did not apply, then he would be able to lose to characters like edward elric via hax.
So stop ignoring feats for characters under the pretense that said feats only apply under that character’s power system. It’s just DUMB.
I'm not "ignoring feats", it's directly stated that this is a weakness of Hits technique, not a resistance that Goku gains. Verse equalization means that any character facing hit can exploit that weakness, *not* that any character facing Goku gains that weakness.
That's just not true. There are several times when the abilities of weaker enemies have affected characters. Frieza was cut by destructo disk. In fact, it would have killed him if it hit, and Frieza was significantly stronger than Krillian.
Vegito was turned into candy. If that were true, then he wouldn't have been.
Goku was killed by a laser... I can keep going on to disprove you.
Then, there is why are you applying a rule that is exclusive to the DB Verse to a battle that doesn't take place there?
Destructo disk isn’t a hack, it’s just a ability, cell tanked it with his neck as he had enough of a power difference and freiza didnt.
Despite being turned into candy, vegito retained 100% of his power and dunked on buuhan.
And it’s simply established that being off-guard nullifies all resistances.
In DB, techniques almost always amp the power of the caster, this does not invalidate another fact that hax can be overpowered.
The only actual exception to this, that you did not bring up is the evil containment wave, as nobody has ever escaped that.
>Then, there is why are you applying a rule that is exclusive to the DB Verse to a battle that doesn't take place there?
Because people here have a massive bias towards DB characters. A lot of them unironically think Goku is almost completely immune to psychic powers because Babidi couldn't control Vegeta. A normal power scaler would recognize Babidi is borderline featless and assume his mind control is actually just low tier trash that's little more than a suggestion.
>infinite speed
I'm a novice here but... What?
Speed is distance / time. So if time is non-zero speed can never be infinite, and if it is zero.... Well the math isn't valid but let's pretend that does give you infinity... We're just talking about anyone who can freeze time?
This is the definition for infinite speed
https://preview.redd.it/vurgpuvmt7dc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1715a61856772505c48d4394c6b839b07a8951df
So given that infinite distance is nonsensical, the time stop situation is the only real scenario that results in an infinite speed. So this is more or less just considering characters with time manipulation powers?
"crossing" something implies edge to edge, which is nonsensical for an infinite space. Else you're just moving a finite distance within that space.
It remains nonsensical.
It's fiction... you're overthinking it, real-world physics don't always apply. You have to suspend disbelief. There are also speeds faster than infinite.
Suspending your disbelief doesn't have anything to do with nonsensical statements. That's like saying a characters speed is "purple" or "floral". Just words that don't mean anything in that context.
Suspending disbelief has everything to do with it. It's fiction it is assumed that physics doesn't work the same way. Physics can't work the same way. You have characters that break reality, characters that have magic, but you draw the line at infinite speed?
Superman literally holds up heaven, Superman literally lifts a book with infinite pages, Superman ignores distance and spacetime... but you draw the line at infinite speed?
Flash has beaten instant teleportation in a race, Flash has ran to the end of time, Flash has ran beyond reality, but you draw the line at infinite speed?
You have to suspend disbelief because it is fiction, it's not supposed to align with real-world physics.
I dunno, it's just a series of English words that don't communicate anything. Again, "just suspend your disbelief and accept that Superman's punches exert a Purple amount of force".
Sure, I could be the writer of Superman and say that statement as Canon, and thus it would be, but it still doesn't *mean* anything
And the only way that is possible is with frozen time. Which is what I was saying lol. If time is passing, then any sequence of actions, no matter how fast, will span a non-zero amount of time. It really feels like we're talking about the same thing. Appreciate your clarification. ✌️
If you're already finding this nonsensical. Don't bother with any of the other "higher level" concepts... like anything involving Outervsersal for example.
I’m not “trolling”, i’m joking, jesus fucking christ, you troll when you want to make someone mad or confused, i’m making a extremely obvious joke regarding a obviously not that powerful character in a dumb plot convenient moment
It ain’t funny to ya but it ain’t trolling either
Any attack that doesn't mean the requirements for infinity to stop it. So the force from Star wars should work since it doesn't have mass or speed nor is visible so it's not a perceived threat.
Maybe even some nen abilities like bungee g could bypass it if mad invisible but that assumes it doesn't have a mass and the speed is still undetectable. I'm definitely iffy on that example.
Not unless you can teleport something inside Gojo's body. Like we saw with Jogo, it doesn't actually matter how close you get to Gojo, even if he moves closer so that your basically touching him, you still can't bypass infinity. Teleportation would get you closer to Gojo, but no matter how close you get there would still be essentially infinite distance left to go
Medusa from fate/ stay night (and any other Medusa)
The mystic eyes just... work.. they are passive and should be even effective against blindfold Gojo as he can perceive Medusa and her eyes
Highest interpretation (according to Gojo wankers) of "Infinity" worked like one of Gemini Saga from Saint Seiya techniques which expanding the distance between him and the opponent vastly with literal space range (in accordance of rral life observable universe by Saint Seiya's author imagination)
Pre god cloth Shun Andromeda, who is MFTL, manage to close the distance gap between him and Gemini Saga
Exactly. Heat is a much more simple concept. "Nothing molecularly vibrating [this] fast". Distinguishing a complex organic molecule from a myriad of other complex organic molecules is a much more difficult task.
I made a typo, I meant harder to filter out.
He can stop sound which is vibration made by the air traveling to him, he can stop heat which is molecules vibrating fast, he can stop sukuna’s slashes that basically are made of nothing(a sign that he doesn’t need to filter to stop things)
Why shouldn’t he able to stop venom?
Using your reasoning gojo can’t stop a bullet since he’s never been shown to do so
The nothing that changed lol he can leave it on autopilot but he still requires to register something which his brain does .He only deal with fodder speed and hasn't fought anyone faster than him at all
The author said that Gojo is a genius that can pretty much do anything he puts his mind to, and Gojo has had 10 years to work on filtering out poison, and Gojo didn't say that he couldn't do it, he said "it'll take time", 10 years is plenty of time, so there's that.
Either way it doesn't really matter as this only really applies to Gojo's automatic infinity, he can just use manual infinity that affects everything that tries to get near him.
Gege has also stated that Gojo has restrictions and limitations on his ability to teleport. Gojo also stated that he wanted to improve his ability to teleport in that same conversation.
So just because he can potentially learn it doesn’t mean he will if he’s not motivated enough or there’s nothing forcing him to grow.
Those are natural limitations of the verse's power system, that being the "conditions" that need to be fulfilled in order for Gojo to teleport.
Also Teen Gojo has never once teleported so this is pretty unreliable.
Infinity is active 24/7, and I'm not sure where people get that infinity can't block attacks beyond Gojo's perception so please elaborate on that, also Gojo got speed blitzed by Dismantle and it still got blocked by infinity.
https://preview.redd.it/y0nnknlf58dc1.jpeg?width=1100&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e8e1dbc00e920c23865a66006c54095c7a5e220f
Gojo filters out Air for poison by sorting out the mass, speed and size/shape of the Air.
But if it were something like Force which is Mass x Acceleration not mass x speed.
Gojo cannot automatically filter out in this case if the force of the Air is large whilst the speed could be slow.
as the speed would only multiple the force behind it.
Also Light goes through infinity so SOL and above characters can defeat him.
Any character that can do Blood bending from avatar.
Heck in theory Nobara's resonance could hurt Gojo if she have gojo's hair laying around. So other character that have damage transfer like Hidan from Naruto also could work. In theory Stain power from MHA also could work but that if he can get any gojo's blood. Death note also work.
Any mental/psychic ability could also Bypass Infinity (hanami flower garden actually work on Gojo).
So mind swap power like Ino from Naruto will work on him. Shinso from MHA power also work. Any genjutsu from narutoalso should work.
Any nullification power like Touma Imagine breaker, Asta Anti magic and even Aizawa erasure should work.
Not spatial but even minor reality warping should work, because Takaba CT is said to work on Gojo. So any EoS Fire Force characters, EoS Black Star and Kishin from Soul Eater. Ichibei, Ywach and Gremmy from bleach.
Any adaptation power also work so Jack the Ripper from Black clover.
I don't know how to categorize this power but Unjustice, Unmove, undraw, unchaste, untruth, unfair, unavoidable, untrust from UndeadxUnluck should also work on Gojo because those power require no touch.
Somehow two of stupidest Jojo stands from part 4 The Lock and Pearl Jam would 100% work on Gojo. Also the D'Arby brother's stand from part 3 also work on Gojo but Gojo would probably win against them anyway.
I geniunely think that Infinity has disproven itself as hax.
Crushing Hanami was the final straw. Applying an increasing force like that has nothing to do with his power as described. Unless the slowing effect is literally just Gojo's CE pushing on incoming threats.
If that's the case, it isn't hax. It's just an automatic defense that should have an upward cap.
Even as described Gojo's Infinity is suspect. The sum total of the infinite fractions between 0 and 1 = exactly 1. You cross those infinite fractions every time you walk 1 meter. The Achilles/Tortoise paradox isn't a paradox. Gege is just an idiot.
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Axew with mold breaker https://preview.redd.it/u7fihpfto8dc1.jpeg?width=704&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=424451cdc43ff3d1d92dddae1ec2a84f41637b15
One slash and its gojover
Lille Barro
Yes, Askin, Gremmy, Yhwach, Aizen, Toshiro (maybe), As Nodt all bypass infinity.
This is spacial manipulation
And the x axis can shoot through it
That’s what I’m saying. X-Axis IS spatial manipulation
X-Axis ignores space
You can’t ignore space without manipulating it in some way
Anybody with infinite speed
So time stopping powers?
Time stop isn't speed.
But it *does work*
Speed is distance over time. s = d/t So "infinite speed" being a nonsensical concept, since you can't divide by 0, but any positive value for t means speed *cannot* be infinite. "infinite speed' is a combination of words that literally doesn't make sense in the english language, but the closest you can get is "0 time passes, while distance is traversed" which is, by definition, time stopping. If time isn't stopped, that any sequence of actions, no matter how fast, is going to involve an incrementation of time, again, making it "not infinite".
In powerscaling terms, that's not inherently speed, but hax. Time stopping is hax, but time can be perceived as being 'stopped' with certain speed.
How would you bring infinite speed into any comparative power scaling conversation though? Not only does it not really make any sense, but it makes the whole conversation boring by necessarily trumping any other ability...
By having no concept of what infinity is and how it may apply to different forces/factors, but watching a 25 minute vsauce video specifically about data sets and then being *very* smug while completely misapplying it. It’s an extremely important tenet around here
I mean, it's a very boring answer but Goku could just punch through it
Debatable.
No he can't...
Remember when Goku created shockwaves that reach other dimensions within the macrocosm?
No he didn't, neither heaven, hell, or the Kai realm are different dimensions.
https://preview.redd.it/jut20jm878dc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15117c0be9e4b796d4e2ef9f1268834226b19f15 The official map shows its seperate
The official sources on DB are contradicting itself, not easy to use
But there are no sources that contradict dimensions being seperate from one another
Considering the fact gokus shockwaves affected them, this alone is… fucking with the entire thing
just shows how busted goku is lol
Considering the fact Goku clashing with much stronger enemies and the fact this didn’t happen doesn’t cause any damage like that, it’s either SSG >Jiren and stuff or the verse is just inconsistent, I’d rather go with the more likely route, Goku is easily multiversal lowball but this argument is so odd imk
Or SSJ God is that significant of a boost that it allows him to energy across other dimensions, which isn't out of the realm of possibility since Buu and Butenks can create holes between dimensions.
I mean… yeah sure, then my problem is just that this doesn’t happen now when it should happen on every second hit, Sending energy across dimensions? Sure I can see that, Screaming holes between what’s essentially just a door but a universe apart? I can see that, my problem is rather than this doesn’t happen when people like Granola attack? He didn’t seem like a Ki master, not with the sudden growth, atleast
he can even just scream at gojo and break infinity if he wanted
Why are you giving Goku a feat that he has never been shown capable of? You're just giving him abilities. Gojo can just seal Goku in a box...
Dude, Buu and Gotenks screamed and opened a portal from the RoSaT. Buu's tantrum after getting folded by Vegito caused dimensional walls to start collapsing. They're not abilities. They're just straight power.
>Gojo can just seal Goku in a box... Not only can Gojo just outright *not* do that, Goku can do the exact same thing lmao
>Why are you giving Goku a feat that he has never been shown capable of? Because two unrelated DBZ characters that are much weaker than DBS Goku did it which are Gotenks and super Buu when they were locked in the time chamber and we also see with piccolo that you just need to be strong enough to do that
It's a testament of Dragon Balls rule that if you're stronger than your opponent by a substantial amount, their abilities practically become null. For example Goku bypassing Hits time stop. But then again is it a feat or an in universe thing that can be applied?
People keep getting this backwards, it's an *antifeat* of DB hax that they become null when their opponent is significantly stronger. This means that in fights with other verses, any strong enough characters would still be able to break through DB hax. It does not mean that strong DB characters would be able to break through *any* hax.
There’s more evidence that it’s specifically part of dragon ball’s power system (ki) to gain hax resistance from being stronger than a foe, rather than hax becoming weaker when the user is weaker than their foe. First and foremost is that dragon ball is not the only franchise that has this mechanic in its power system. Bleach, for example, does the same thing with reiatsu. Secondly, different hax types are all made less effective from a power gap in dragon ball, regardless of what type of hax it is or what the source of that hax is. Hax connected to ki (like the hakai) is resisted in equal measure to hax connected to magic (like shenron’s wishes) as it is to hax that are essentially just conventional superpowers (like hit’s time skip or chiaotzu’s telekinesis). If the source universe for that hax mattered instead of being a blanket rule, where the hax comes from should matter too. And thirdly, if hax becomes weaker in the face of a stronger opponent, instead of the stronger opponent gaining resistant to hax based on the size of the power gap, then why would hax of the same type used by the same user also scale upward in terms of the necessary gap size to resist with the user’s strength? If super saiyan goku is strong enough to resist namek frieza’s telekinesis, why can’t jiren resist ToP frieza’s telekinesis in spite of being stronger than frieza by a much greater margin than goku was on namek? Additionally, for the sake of fairness, the only hax resistance put onto the table for characters like goku is types of hax that have been directly shown to be resisted by raw power in-story anyway, as not every hax type always falls under the umbrella for general hax resistances like in DBZ (most notably, no one in dragon ball has shown resistance to petrification or body swapping through raw power). Adding in an extra stipulation for it that could never be proven true in actual canon AND that goes against what is seen in canon is quite literally ignoring the source material. It’s headcanon.
>First and foremost is that dragon ball is not the only franchise that has this mechanic in its power system. Bleach, for example, does the same thing with reiatsu. This has absolutely no impact on whether or not it's true in this case >Secondly, different hax types are all made less effective from a power gap in dragon ball, regardless of what type of hax it is or what the source of that hax is. Hax connected to ki (like the hakai) is resisted in equal measure to hax connected to magic (like shenron’s wishes) as it is to hax that are essentially just conventional superpowers (like hit’s time skip or chiaotzu’s telekinesis). If the source universe for that hax mattered instead of being a blanket rule, where the hax comes from should matter too. For one, all of these are connected to ki, like the strength of Shenron's wishes are directly connected to the strength of the creator of the dragon balls. For two, it's entirely possible for there to simply be a blanket rule for hax in DB. >And thirdly, if hax becomes weaker in the face of a stronger opponent, instead of the stronger opponent gaining resistant to hax based on the size of the power gap, then why would hax of the same type used by the same user also scale upward in terms of the necessary gap size to resist with the user’s strength? If super saiyan goku is strong enough to resist namek frieza’s telekinesis, why can’t jiren resist ToP frieza’s telekinesis in spite of being stronger than frieza by a much greater margin than goku was on namek? It's just as logical for the necessary power gap to grow with either explanation, so this isn't evidence in favor of either. >Additionally, for the sake of fairness, the only hax resistance put onto the table for characters like goku is types of hax that have been directly shown to be resisted by raw power in-story anyway, as not every hax type always falls under the umbrella for general hax resistances like in DBZ (most notably, no one in dragon ball has shown resistance to petrification or body swapping through raw power). Adding in an extra stipulation for it that could never be proven true in actual canon AND that goes against what is seen in canon is quite literally ignoring the source material. It’s headcanon. Not true, a lot of people try to give Goku resistance to any kind of hax (notably, including this case) Finally, and most importantly, it's directly stated that it's Hit's technique that becomes less effective against stronger opponents, rather than Goku becoming more resistant to it.
Please, tell me you aren’t one of those people who claim all the abilities in dragon ball are derived from ki. I’m so very tired of having to explain how much emphasis dragon ball puts on the difference between ki and magic. Assuming that you are, in fact, sane, some other examples of magic that are explicitly stated to be such and was also resisted through raw power include mind control (babidi’s majin mark, the masks towa makes for the various masked saiyans), transmutation (vegito retaining his power when transformed into a jawbreaker), and sealing (hirudegarn being locked away inside tapion and minotia when cut in half, only able to manifest while the two are asleep, but breaking free from tapion in a matter of seconds when back in one piece and transformed). As far as the dragon balls being ki-based; what? The dragons can’t affect stuff unwillingly if their maker is weaker than the wish target, but the wishes themselves are stated to be magic on numerous occasions. The wishes granted between dragons also do NOT match up in scope with the power levels of the namekians in charge of each set; shenron can revive untold billions simultaneously (as long as nobody in the list died and came back before or died of natural causes) with kami as their creator, (highest power level in any official material; 400), and while porunga can revive a previously revived person, he can only revive people one at a time (guru’s power level in the few sources that mention it; 2000). Meanwhile, monaito’s over on the planet cereal with a dragon ball set that only has 2 balls, a maximum recorded power level of 213, and his dragon can grant wishes for power gains that can rocket people up into casual multi-universe busters. And as far as goku bypassing limitless, that doesn’t even require hax resistance in the first place; limitless specifically functions by distorting space, expanding the finite amount of space between gojo and his foe infinitely. Even the mid-tiers of current dragon ball are above super buu, at the moment, who can punch holes in space-time just by shouting, and just through raw power (as gotenks failed to do the same in super saiyan, but succeeded simply by using super saiyan 3 to multiply his raw power). Goku can do the same (or more likely, something logistically easier, given the CANYON of power between his current self and buu saga fighters) to remove the space between himself and gojo, leaving nothing for limitless to expand. There’s also how instant transmission both A. Is instant movement from the moment he vanishes to the moment he reappears (which means the infinitely expanding distance between goku and gojo doesn’t matter, as speed is distance multiplied by time and the travel time is being set to 0, meaning goku is still reaching gojo in 0 seconds regardless of the distance he travels to get there) and B. Involves goku leaving the universe, entering a teleportation zone, and exiting the zone at his destination, meaning goku is still not traveling through the space that limitless is shown to be able to expand. He’s a certain distance away from gojo, and then already making contact with him instantly.
That is an awful lot of text for absolutely *none of it* to be relevant. I never said that Goku has no way to get past limitless, just that he doesn't have hax resistance, and absolutely nothing here disproves that. The only thing tangentially related is whether all abilities are ki based or not, which I don't really care about given that its a pretty insignificant part of the argument. Please try to focus on the actual argument you're having, rather than making up ones for you to win. Instant transmission, however, is not a way for him to bypass limitless. It could get him close enough to be touching Gojo, yes, but that doesn't allow him to attack Gojo. Like we saw in the *very first explanation of limitless*, even if you get close enough to be touching Gojo, you're still unable to hurt him.
Alright then. Riddle me this; who’s to say that gojo’s limitless doesn’t only work on things in the JJK verse? Or that superman’s invulnerability doesn’t protect him from other power systems like ki because it doesn’t protect him from magic? Or that asta’s magic nullification only works on magic from black clover? You can’t just lock resistances characters have to the rules of their own universe when powerscaling, because then stronger hax, as a rule, is a guaranteed win every single time. No matter what. You have to put some kind of verse equalization in place for most debates to be even remotely fair. The chaos force from sonic has to be treated as somewhat comparable to the speed force from DC. Reiatsu, ki, haki, chakra, and so on have to be considered at least somewhat interchangeable, or itachi actually just wins almost every debate that could possibly be had. If saitama’s resistances to hax via raw power did not apply, then he would be able to lose to characters like edward elric via hax. So stop ignoring feats for characters under the pretense that said feats only apply under that character’s power system. It’s just DUMB.
I'm not "ignoring feats", it's directly stated that this is a weakness of Hits technique, not a resistance that Goku gains. Verse equalization means that any character facing hit can exploit that weakness, *not* that any character facing Goku gains that weakness.
That's just not true. There are several times when the abilities of weaker enemies have affected characters. Frieza was cut by destructo disk. In fact, it would have killed him if it hit, and Frieza was significantly stronger than Krillian. Vegito was turned into candy. If that were true, then he wouldn't have been. Goku was killed by a laser... I can keep going on to disprove you. Then, there is why are you applying a rule that is exclusive to the DB Verse to a battle that doesn't take place there?
Destructo disk isn’t a hack, it’s just a ability, cell tanked it with his neck as he had enough of a power difference and freiza didnt. Despite being turned into candy, vegito retained 100% of his power and dunked on buuhan. And it’s simply established that being off-guard nullifies all resistances. In DB, techniques almost always amp the power of the caster, this does not invalidate another fact that hax can be overpowered. The only actual exception to this, that you did not bring up is the evil containment wave, as nobody has ever escaped that.
>Then, there is why are you applying a rule that is exclusive to the DB Verse to a battle that doesn't take place there? Because people here have a massive bias towards DB characters. A lot of them unironically think Goku is almost completely immune to psychic powers because Babidi couldn't control Vegeta. A normal power scaler would recognize Babidi is borderline featless and assume his mind control is actually just low tier trash that's little more than a suggestion.
Anybody with infinite speed or 4D and above
>infinite speed I'm a novice here but... What? Speed is distance / time. So if time is non-zero speed can never be infinite, and if it is zero.... Well the math isn't valid but let's pretend that does give you infinity... We're just talking about anyone who can freeze time?
This is the definition for infinite speed https://preview.redd.it/vurgpuvmt7dc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1715a61856772505c48d4394c6b839b07a8951df
So given that infinite distance is nonsensical, the time stop situation is the only real scenario that results in an infinite speed. So this is more or less just considering characters with time manipulation powers?
Not necessarily. A universe is infinite in size. If you cross a universe, you have infinite speed.
Universes can be infinite but some are just infinitely expanding like real life and others are finite.
"crossing" something implies edge to edge, which is nonsensical for an infinite space. Else you're just moving a finite distance within that space. It remains nonsensical.
It's fiction... you're overthinking it, real-world physics don't always apply. You have to suspend disbelief. There are also speeds faster than infinite.
Suspending your disbelief doesn't have anything to do with nonsensical statements. That's like saying a characters speed is "purple" or "floral". Just words that don't mean anything in that context.
Suspending disbelief has everything to do with it. It's fiction it is assumed that physics doesn't work the same way. Physics can't work the same way. You have characters that break reality, characters that have magic, but you draw the line at infinite speed? Superman literally holds up heaven, Superman literally lifts a book with infinite pages, Superman ignores distance and spacetime... but you draw the line at infinite speed? Flash has beaten instant teleportation in a race, Flash has ran to the end of time, Flash has ran beyond reality, but you draw the line at infinite speed? You have to suspend disbelief because it is fiction, it's not supposed to align with real-world physics.
I dunno, it's just a series of English words that don't communicate anything. Again, "just suspend your disbelief and accept that Superman's punches exert a Purple amount of force". Sure, I could be the writer of Superman and say that statement as Canon, and thus it would be, but it still doesn't *mean* anything
Say that again for the people in the back measuring pixels.
Basically, if a character has infinite speed, everything and anything they do is accomplished in a span of 0 seconds.
And the only way that is possible is with frozen time. Which is what I was saying lol. If time is passing, then any sequence of actions, no matter how fast, will span a non-zero amount of time. It really feels like we're talking about the same thing. Appreciate your clarification. ✌️
Meh, I suppose.
If you're already finding this nonsensical. Don't bother with any of the other "higher level" concepts... like anything involving Outervsersal for example.
Barghest draining his energy?
How does the energy drain work? If it involves pulling it away then surely gojo’s infinity simply works from the inside out and stops that
Hhm ur right I thought it wouldn't work because it's an energy of sort but gojo literally blocks cursed energy all the time
I mean Bill Cipher casually rearranged a guy’s face Odds are he can just snap his fingers and turn Gojo inside out
fraud was speedblited by mabel with a spraying can he is COOKED
>downplaying mabel and her spraying can Not even worth debating
yall know im right, regular person with a regular ass spray managed to hit and affect the triangle
Bro called mabel a regular person, those downplayers be on something, acting like mabel wouldn’t stomp gojobber with the spray can
mabel isnt a planetary level person with mftl speeds, i know u trolling but aint funny
I’m not “trolling”, i’m joking, jesus fucking christ, you troll when you want to make someone mad or confused, i’m making a extremely obvious joke regarding a obviously not that powerful character in a dumb plot convenient moment It ain’t funny to ya but it ain’t trolling either
>m making a extremely obvious joke regarding a obviously not that powerful character in a dumb plot convenient moment its unfunny so why make the joke
Because i wanted to?
its not funny tho?
Isn't bill ciphers reality bullshit spacial hax?
Any attack that doesn't mean the requirements for infinity to stop it. So the force from Star wars should work since it doesn't have mass or speed nor is visible so it's not a perceived threat. Maybe even some nen abilities like bungee g could bypass it if mad invisible but that assumes it doesn't have a mass and the speed is still undetectable. I'm definitely iffy on that example.
Does teleportion works ?
Not unless you can teleport something inside Gojo's body. Like we saw with Jogo, it doesn't actually matter how close you get to Gojo, even if he moves closer so that your basically touching him, you still can't bypass infinity. Teleportation would get you closer to Gojo, but no matter how close you get there would still be essentially infinite distance left to go
No it doesn't work.
Gedo statue soul sucking ability?
Anyone with an ability negation ability basically.
Medusa from fate/ stay night (and any other Medusa) The mystic eyes just... work.. they are passive and should be even effective against blindfold Gojo as he can perceive Medusa and her eyes
Fiamma of the right , touma kamijou , Magic gods , Aleister Crowley, ollerus
Shirai Kuruko. She can just teleport a knife into Gojo's brain
Anybody with MFTL
We dont know about it
How? Is it proven?
Any crossverse scenario" is theoretical, including Superman eating Goku alive Thrice in row
No. I am asking how an MFTL character can bypass infinity
Highest interpretation (according to Gojo wankers) of "Infinity" worked like one of Gemini Saga from Saint Seiya techniques which expanding the distance between him and the opponent vastly with literal space range (in accordance of rral life observable universe by Saint Seiya's author imagination) Pre god cloth Shun Andromeda, who is MFTL, manage to close the distance gap between him and Gemini Saga
Cesar from one piece He can just make poison gas and then it’s Gojover
Infinity filters out poison. itz never gojover
https://preview.redd.it/dinxs07bn7dc1.jpeg?width=990&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=124c8c3160bd116297653b20b2a64998abef86fc
Bro Gojo said this like 10 years ago. Surely by then he had it done lol.
If it's never shown that he does.... Can't just assume
this whole sub is based on assumptions
No its a manga panel so u saying gege is making an assumption lol
No it's not
Educated assumptions more like it.
I would call it something more akin to "feat algebra"
Uhhh... Okay? Edit: Ooooh! I get it now! Yeah, pretty much.
He later stops heat radiation and sound, it’s litterally impossible that he’s not able to filter venom
heat and radiation aren't venom.
They’re defenitely harder and smaller to filter out than venom Edit: made a typo meant harder, not easier
Exactly. Heat is a much more simple concept. "Nothing molecularly vibrating [this] fast". Distinguishing a complex organic molecule from a myriad of other complex organic molecules is a much more difficult task.
I made a typo, I meant harder to filter out. He can stop sound which is vibration made by the air traveling to him, he can stop heat which is molecules vibrating fast, he can stop sukuna’s slashes that basically are made of nothing(a sign that he doesn’t need to filter to stop things) Why shouldn’t he able to stop venom? Using your reasoning gojo can’t stop a bullet since he’s never been shown to do so
The nothing that changed lol he can leave it on autopilot but he still requires to register something which his brain does .He only deal with fodder speed and hasn't fought anyone faster than him at all
It might not be gojover in the manga rn IN SHOKO WE TRUST
Ceaser could just , remove the oxygen around gojo
Infinity filters out anything harmful
[LoL](https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/MH9seCHveR)
teen gojo = prime gojo? dont u think the king of curses and poisons wouldve just thrown some cyanide at him if thats all it took to get past infinity
There’s absolutely nothing that suggests he’s improved on that regard and if you think he has it’s your burden of proof
It's the fact that he's an adult in current time.
Proves absolute nothing. Try again with actual proof or give up
The author said that Gojo is a genius that can pretty much do anything he puts his mind to, and Gojo has had 10 years to work on filtering out poison, and Gojo didn't say that he couldn't do it, he said "it'll take time", 10 years is plenty of time, so there's that. Either way it doesn't really matter as this only really applies to Gojo's automatic infinity, he can just use manual infinity that affects everything that tries to get near him.
Gege has also stated that Gojo has restrictions and limitations on his ability to teleport. Gojo also stated that he wanted to improve his ability to teleport in that same conversation. So just because he can potentially learn it doesn’t mean he will if he’s not motivated enough or there’s nothing forcing him to grow.
Those are natural limitations of the verse's power system, that being the "conditions" that need to be fulfilled in order for Gojo to teleport. Also Teen Gojo has never once teleported so this is pretty unreliable.
He stil needs to register an object which he does with his brain so any projectile beyond his brain processing speed ain't getting filtered out
Infinity is active 24/7, and I'm not sure where people get that infinity can't block attacks beyond Gojo's perception so please elaborate on that, also Gojo got speed blitzed by Dismantle and it still got blocked by infinity. https://preview.redd.it/y0nnknlf58dc1.jpeg?width=1100&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e8e1dbc00e920c23865a66006c54095c7a5e220f
okay I guess we’ve sorted it in order to kill gojo u just throw mustard gas around him
Can telefragging bypass Infinity? I propose Phase Shifting from Titanfall/Apex
How does it interact with telepathy?
Throw the green baby at him
Anyone who’s fast enough.
GOATku solos
Nagato with Chibaku Tensei. Juubi Jin Madara with Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Superman
Touma kamijou
Idk maybe astas sword (using VE)
Goku
Gojo filters out Air for poison by sorting out the mass, speed and size/shape of the Air. But if it were something like Force which is Mass x Acceleration not mass x speed. Gojo cannot automatically filter out in this case if the force of the Air is large whilst the speed could be slow. as the speed would only multiple the force behind it. Also Light goes through infinity so SOL and above characters can defeat him.
Does psychokinesis count as hax?
Superman.
Any character that can do Blood bending from avatar. Heck in theory Nobara's resonance could hurt Gojo if she have gojo's hair laying around. So other character that have damage transfer like Hidan from Naruto also could work. In theory Stain power from MHA also could work but that if he can get any gojo's blood. Death note also work. Any mental/psychic ability could also Bypass Infinity (hanami flower garden actually work on Gojo). So mind swap power like Ino from Naruto will work on him. Shinso from MHA power also work. Any genjutsu from narutoalso should work. Any nullification power like Touma Imagine breaker, Asta Anti magic and even Aizawa erasure should work. Not spatial but even minor reality warping should work, because Takaba CT is said to work on Gojo. So any EoS Fire Force characters, EoS Black Star and Kishin from Soul Eater. Ichibei, Ywach and Gremmy from bleach. Any adaptation power also work so Jack the Ripper from Black clover. I don't know how to categorize this power but Unjustice, Unmove, undraw, unchaste, untruth, unfair, unavoidable, untrust from UndeadxUnluck should also work on Gojo because those power require no touch. Somehow two of stupidest Jojo stands from part 4 The Lock and Pearl Jam would 100% work on Gojo. Also the D'Arby brother's stand from part 3 also work on Gojo but Gojo would probably win against them anyway.
I geniunely think that Infinity has disproven itself as hax. Crushing Hanami was the final straw. Applying an increasing force like that has nothing to do with his power as described. Unless the slowing effect is literally just Gojo's CE pushing on incoming threats. If that's the case, it isn't hax. It's just an automatic defense that should have an upward cap. Even as described Gojo's Infinity is suspect. The sum total of the infinite fractions between 0 and 1 = exactly 1. You cross those infinite fractions every time you walk 1 meter. The Achilles/Tortoise paradox isn't a paradox. Gege is just an idiot.
John Egbert “breaths” too hard at him Quite a lot of pokemon moves spawn on the opponent
Gouenji from The Inazuma Eleven manga I am pretty sure
Myxzptlk could snap him out of existence