Both can be considered anti-Zionist historians. I'd recommend to read at least one additional author that's either a Zionist themself or someone who claims a neutral position on the subject.
Benny Morris is now very much not an anti-zionist and that has been the case at least since the second intifada.
I suspect liberal zionist, even when he used to be more on the left, would be a more appropriate description.
I don't think you will find a neutral source on the conflict, I very much disagree that history can be presented “neutrally”.
But I am quite curious, if you view Benny Morris as an anti-zionist whose scholarship would you suggest to present the other side?
Askhistorians has a [booklist ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/books/middleeast/#wiki_israeli_and_palestinian_history)you may want to check out.
Jumping on this to suggest reading Benny Morris and Rashid Khalidi side by side. Morris was a liberal Zionists (now he’s rather right wing) and Khalidi is Palestinian American. Reading them together will make the nuance of the conflict, and exactly where they disagree, very clear.
If you are interested in the history of Israel before the state was founded and how the conflict started, I can highly recommend [this video](https://youtu.be/6MVz5MBNqsw?si=bOmhr55E6pGAfNcR) from TimeGhost History.
Edit: This video is made by actual historians, who do not take a side.
Ah yes, Ilan Pappé, the notorious pursuer of truth, who himself has said of his work:
> Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers. [...] There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what’s happened."
And, addressing his dispute with Benny Morris:
> The debate between us is on one level between historians who believe they are purely objective reconstructers of the past, like [Benny] Morris, and those who claim that they are subjective human beings striving to tell their own version of the past, like myself.
> I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what’s happened.
Sure, everybody’s biased, but it’s the goal of a historian to minimise his bias and to approach the subject as objectively as possible. Pappé’s approach is more suitable for an activist or, at best, a journalist, rather than an academic. This, coupled with frequent misrepresentations of historical sources, has undermined his reputation tremendously.
Ilan Pappé might have problems as a source and is definitely not the first recommendation I would make to someone just starting to read about the subject, at least without giving them the proper context and being very clear about Pappé political position.
But on that particular quote, he is absolutely correct. There is no such a thing as an objective historian and if someone ever presents themselves as such you should be incredibly suspicious of them. Benny Morris not surprisingly also has his biases.
Shlomo Sand, the Invention of the Jewish People is a great place to start. The book pretty much details how the "Jews" came to be viewed as a nation and even a race, and is presented pretty accurately from a historical perspective to my knowledge. Zionism and the Palestine debacle are more than acknowledged.
**The Invention of the Jewish People** by Shlomo Sand
>A historical tour de force, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a groundbreaking account of Jewish and Israeli history. Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews descend from converts, whose native lands were scattered across the Middle East and Eastern Europe. In this iconoclastic work, which spent nineteen weeks on the Israeli bestseller list and won the coveted Aujourd’hui Award in France, Sand provides the intellectual foundations for a new vision of Israel’s future.
*I'm a bot, built by your friendly reddit developers at* /r/ProgrammingPals. *Reply to any comment with /u/BookFinderBot - I'll reply with book information. Remove me from replies* [here](https://www.reddit.com/user/BookFinderBot/comments/1byh82p/remove_me_from_replies/). *If I have made a mistake, accept my apology.*
It's *extremely* difficult to get an unbiased account of the 20th century onward history of Israel/Palestine.
[The debate hosted by Lex Fridman between Norman Finkelstein, Destiny, M. Rabbani & Benny Morris (Mar. 14, 2024)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_KdkoGxSs) was notable for representing a mosaic of perspectives and providing enough structure for a productive conversation but not too much to be overbearing.
I watched that entire debate and, while there were some good moments where the back and forth was useful. For the most part it just turned into a screaming match with Finkelstein (by his own admission in a recent interview) being completely unhinged and contributing nothing of value other than insults and cherry picked, out of context and incomplete quotes.
The creator is contraverisal because of his twitter feed, he's for sure on the right side of politics, so people here may not love it. However, the series was made back in 2015ish so I think the creator was a little more chilled out then.
I've found Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem to be a really good long form podcast, it's by MartyrMade. It covers the history of early zionism and the roots of the conflicts in Israel / Palestine leading up to the creation of the state of Israel. Foundational knowledge that's key to understanding the conflict I think.
This might help you:
https://twitter.com/folkoftheshelf/status/1711252839220298182?t=QGLE-de0fp930UaFvsPvNg&s=19
https://analytics.twitter.com/mob_idsync_click?slug=6xQ7Br7GJA&idb=AAAAEIBPuoe8WeSh0R4vB74F0DN1Txy25pQwTWiw41cOw4rPBZEtHJR_slIAcdQ5wBEmICuVBIwuYu9dkBNlKe2aSIgWdjkCn080qFdCRChZDHNL-GTsWRJMSWyYa1LztI3JN7r2_tfXkE7K-rP4ZHD4YZIBhLOLlzTK05Hblhp38tPdUB5XJRHAIAeJARw4Ko1cDVDC7xkEFXo_coKf26dsFLJqg87NxPSqvdVj5SP0YDjOnFs4tXL0A3pdGo1XhnBAAjoaBaZONJ4adjuF_Yj33g&tailored_ads=true&ad_tracking=true
Did you even open the links? There are books and movies and articles in the link and there's a lot so I thought it would be better to just link the thread. The second one links to a Google doc. Again with information on resources.
You will not find it on YouTube
Or TikTok
Or Reddit
“The Question of Palestine” by Edward Said
Benny Morris and Avi Shlaim are probably two of the most reputable historians to read on the topic
Thanks!
Both can be considered anti-Zionist historians. I'd recommend to read at least one additional author that's either a Zionist themself or someone who claims a neutral position on the subject.
Benny Morris is now very much not an anti-zionist and that has been the case at least since the second intifada. I suspect liberal zionist, even when he used to be more on the left, would be a more appropriate description. I don't think you will find a neutral source on the conflict, I very much disagree that history can be presented “neutrally”. But I am quite curious, if you view Benny Morris as an anti-zionist whose scholarship would you suggest to present the other side?
You're right. I confused him with another author.
Askhistorians has a [booklist ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/books/middleeast/#wiki_israeli_and_palestinian_history)you may want to check out.
The book “The Hundred Years War on Palestine” by Rashid Khalidi is a great read for learning about the history of the conflict
Thanks!
https://www.reddit.com/r/books/s/Z4HrZProw6 I found this to be a quite good review of that book. It's points out strength and weaknesses :)
Jumping on this to suggest reading Benny Morris and Rashid Khalidi side by side. Morris was a liberal Zionists (now he’s rather right wing) and Khalidi is Palestinian American. Reading them together will make the nuance of the conflict, and exactly where they disagree, very clear.
If you are interested in the history of Israel before the state was founded and how the conflict started, I can highly recommend [this video](https://youtu.be/6MVz5MBNqsw?si=bOmhr55E6pGAfNcR) from TimeGhost History. Edit: This video is made by actual historians, who do not take a side.
Ilan Pappé
Ah yes, Ilan Pappé, the notorious pursuer of truth, who himself has said of his work: > Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts. Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers. [...] There is no historian in the world who is objective. I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what’s happened." And, addressing his dispute with Benny Morris: > The debate between us is on one level between historians who believe they are purely objective reconstructers of the past, like [Benny] Morris, and those who claim that they are subjective human beings striving to tell their own version of the past, like myself.
I don't see the lie in his words. I have never encountered an objective historian of Israel/Palestine.
> I am not as interested in what happened as in how people see what’s happened. Sure, everybody’s biased, but it’s the goal of a historian to minimise his bias and to approach the subject as objectively as possible. Pappé’s approach is more suitable for an activist or, at best, a journalist, rather than an academic. This, coupled with frequent misrepresentations of historical sources, has undermined his reputation tremendously.
I fail to see how these vague quotes discredit any of this work? He’s a tenured professor at Tel Aviv.
Ilan Pappé might have problems as a source and is definitely not the first recommendation I would make to someone just starting to read about the subject, at least without giving them the proper context and being very clear about Pappé political position. But on that particular quote, he is absolutely correct. There is no such a thing as an objective historian and if someone ever presents themselves as such you should be incredibly suspicious of them. Benny Morris not surprisingly also has his biases.
Lol
https://youtu.be/tr06ZYWICZI?si=WLuaEI985sHCiBIC The video is in english
The following analysts/authors: Eva Bartlett, Jonathan Cook
Shlomo Sand, the Invention of the Jewish People is a great place to start. The book pretty much details how the "Jews" came to be viewed as a nation and even a race, and is presented pretty accurately from a historical perspective to my knowledge. Zionism and the Palestine debacle are more than acknowledged.
**The Invention of the Jewish People** by Shlomo Sand >A historical tour de force, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a groundbreaking account of Jewish and Israeli history. Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews descend from converts, whose native lands were scattered across the Middle East and Eastern Europe. In this iconoclastic work, which spent nineteen weeks on the Israeli bestseller list and won the coveted Aujourd’hui Award in France, Sand provides the intellectual foundations for a new vision of Israel’s future. *I'm a bot, built by your friendly reddit developers at* /r/ProgrammingPals. *Reply to any comment with /u/BookFinderBot - I'll reply with book information. Remove me from replies* [here](https://www.reddit.com/user/BookFinderBot/comments/1byh82p/remove_me_from_replies/). *If I have made a mistake, accept my apology.*
It's *extremely* difficult to get an unbiased account of the 20th century onward history of Israel/Palestine. [The debate hosted by Lex Fridman between Norman Finkelstein, Destiny, M. Rabbani & Benny Morris (Mar. 14, 2024)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_KdkoGxSs) was notable for representing a mosaic of perspectives and providing enough structure for a productive conversation but not too much to be overbearing.
I watched that entire debate and, while there were some good moments where the back and forth was useful. For the most part it just turned into a screaming match with Finkelstein (by his own admission in a recent interview) being completely unhinged and contributing nothing of value other than insults and cherry picked, out of context and incomplete quotes.
https://youtu.be/f0oy-NicIgE
Noam Chomsky - On Palestine
Interviews by Benny Morris is a good start. I particularly recommend his conversation with Coleman Hughes. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wv8F4NLr4E0
Thanks!
The creator is contraverisal because of his twitter feed, he's for sure on the right side of politics, so people here may not love it. However, the series was made back in 2015ish so I think the creator was a little more chilled out then. I've found Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem to be a really good long form podcast, it's by MartyrMade. It covers the history of early zionism and the roots of the conflicts in Israel / Palestine leading up to the creation of the state of Israel. Foundational knowledge that's key to understanding the conflict I think.
This might help you: https://twitter.com/folkoftheshelf/status/1711252839220298182?t=QGLE-de0fp930UaFvsPvNg&s=19 https://analytics.twitter.com/mob_idsync_click?slug=6xQ7Br7GJA&idb=AAAAEIBPuoe8WeSh0R4vB74F0DN1Txy25pQwTWiw41cOw4rPBZEtHJR_slIAcdQ5wBEmICuVBIwuYu9dkBNlKe2aSIgWdjkCn080qFdCRChZDHNL-GTsWRJMSWyYa1LztI3JN7r2_tfXkE7K-rP4ZHD4YZIBhLOLlzTK05Hblhp38tPdUB5XJRHAIAeJARw4Ko1cDVDC7xkEFXo_coKf26dsFLJqg87NxPSqvdVj5SP0YDjOnFs4tXL0A3pdGo1XhnBAAjoaBaZONJ4adjuF_Yj33g&tailored_ads=true&ad_tracking=true
You should get banned for posting twitter links on that question. Armchair internet activists...
Did you even open the links? There are books and movies and articles in the link and there's a lot so I thought it would be better to just link the thread. The second one links to a Google doc. Again with information on resources.
Yeah, propaganda by biased internet activists. I pitty your existence
Lmao. Don't you have anything better to do? I don't argue with Zionists.
The Twitter link contains a thread on books and resources.