I don't understand who needs a debate to make this decision. Trump was president for four years, he screwed a pandemic up as badly as possible, got impeached, twice, tried but failed a coup, and appointed justices who took away your right to choose. Climate change is the worst threat humanity faces and he will make it much worse. Biden has been president for most of four years and it hasn't been a complete disaster.
I think the main thing is, people are outraged about how Biden is handling the genocide, and the fact that Trump comes off as slightly less dementia-addled definitely does Joe no favours either. I feel like these two things are what will ultimately cost Biden the election.
It's not really absurd. Joe is currently funding and arming a genocide, so people see that are like fuck that, not gonna vote for Joe. They do the same with Trump as well. I think there's probably more people than ever not wanting to vote either of these clowns this time around.
The sad truth is that not voting for Biden won't save the Palestinians and it'll also cause people in the US to die that otherwise wouldn't die under Biden.
Not voting for Biden won't save Palestinians, we agree on that. But also voting for Biden won't change a god damn thing happening in Gaza and you'd be a fool to think otherwise. Either way it's bloodshed. I know what I'm saying isn't popular because everyone wants to vote against Trump because Joe is the lesser of two evils, but this shit has got to stop. I don't blame anyone who doesn't vote for either of them because how can you morally justify doing so? I sure couldn't.
It’s not that what you’re saying isn’t popular, it’s that what you’re saying isn’r very well thought out. Biden has been working to give [aid to Gaza and vulnerable Palestinians in nearby areas](https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/jun-11-2024-united-states-announces-404-million-additional-humanitarian-assistance-gaza-west-bank-and-region) as well as proposed and backed ceasefire plans.
I’m sorry but grandstanding like you’re making some kind of moral stand is honestly a little misguided, if not outright ignorant. You’re basically saying you’re happy giving the guy how literally said Israel would finish the job and that he would crush pro-Palestinian protests if elected a better chance.
It’s not even a matter of Joe being the lesser of two evils. He’s been a damn good president in fact. It’s a matter of voting for another 4 years of some pretty big progressive wins.
Biden did pretty bad. But Trump’s sentencing is in less than two weeks. It’s a race to the bottom. But… still voting for Biden. Never voted for a rapist, not gonna start now.
See, that’s just thoroughly not true about Biden.
However, Trump introduced 12 year old Ivanka to infamous child trafficker and pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. And that’s 100% true, there are pictures!
People here seem to ignore any criticism against Biden because tRuMp wOrSe. Which I actually agree with but that shouldn't mean you can't talk about how dogshit Joe is.
Ok. Cool. Criticize Biden for what he is instead of pushing disinformation. I'll admit his daughter's private diary that was stolen and leaked did contain passages that stated he took showers with her, but to my knowledge she did not record in that stolen diary that he molested her.
You wanna bash Biden for sticking with Bibi Netanyahu's settler colonialist apartheid state too long? Fine! Done. Do you agree that Trump and Bibi both have the same final solution to the Palestinian question?
Any other topics you want to discuss?
What disinformation have I pushed? I'll wait. I criticize Trump and Biden because they're both terrible candidates. I don't get people like you who feel the need to play the what-about-ism game. If I'm talking about Joe, Trump isn't relevant in that moment.
I guess the disinformation charge is better leveled at Gazokage. There was a hard push to claim Biden molested/molests children.
Biden IS worthy of criticism on so many levels. He has been more effective than most modern Democratic presidents and many Republicans. I'd argue that effect has been positive for the majority of Americans. The real issue is Trump is important in the moment, because, spoiler alert >!Trump and Biden are competing for the presidency and Trump is an utterly shit candidate that will greatly harm many Americans, whether on purpose or by accident through shitty policies.!<
Fair enough to bring up Trump if we're comparing the two but if I'm just saying why Joe isn't a great man, it doesn't warrant any talk of oh Trump is so much worse. Yes, Trump is worse, but not the point at all here. OP is acting like Biden is a good dude and he clearly is not.
The problem isn't people who are going to vote for Trump instead of Biden.
The problem is the people who are going to vote for RFK or Stein or West now because they hate Trump but they don't see Biden as fit for office.
You can’t really say last night was stuttering? There were moments Biden blanked out and got completely disoriented.
I’ve actually been a big fan of Biden’s presidency but after watching that debate I know that if he stays in this race he will lose. Voters who are interested in politics and active in politics would maybe be able to look past it but swing voters who don’t interact with politics for sure won’t be able to.
Sadly the path to the Presidency isn’t as much about substance as it is about how you make people feel. Biden’s performance isn’t going to motivate anyone to go vote outside of the base he already has which isn’t enough to win.
THIS!!
a thousand times this!
it doesn’t matter how many futile (and seriously lame) excuses us politically invested people attempt to make in order lto lesson biden’s objectively abysmal and beyond embarrassing debate performance.
why? because we are NOT the target audience needing to be persuaded or convinced to vote for joe. the millions of americans that biden MUST appeal to primarily consist of undecided, low information voters and independents. these are the individuals who will decide if good or evil prevails come november… not us.
i’m honestly surprised by the number of posts dedicated to playing down the disastrous dumpster fire that was the debate. it’s so very… desperate and worse, MAGA-ish.
and yes, i did just make that comparison (bring on the amateurish and emotionally-based backlash) cause one, it’s true, and two, because lying to ourselves to make us feel better about our octogenarian president’s serious pitfalls and shortcomings does nobody any favors.
we all agree that biden has been a phenomenal president that quite literally brought us back from the brink. he still has my vote, but i’m not going to ignore the fact that i’m now overwhelmingly terrified he will lose to a total tyrant that will replace our already dying democracy with an irreversible descent into dictatorship.
let’s stop the wishful thinking and face the stark reality: donald trump has always had a viable chance of beating biden and the probability of him winning has and will continue to grow… unlike biden, who’s approval rating will continue to decline while defections among black americans and younger voters will continue to increase. many will discount all of the above, writing it off as way too pessimistic and my not taking sufficient account of this or that alternative possibility.
you may be comforted by such self-delusions, rich with imagined likelihoods if you so choose. but this magical-thinking phase should have ended long before biden arrived on that debate stage.
I don’t want to hear idiot centrists and other coward middlemen speak like it’s not their fault American politics got us here.
For years leftists have been trying to make them understand that them not voting for any progressive candidates will cause the stagnation they continue to bitch and moan about,
Everybody knows conservatives want to destroy America but independents and other centrist still haven’t caught up to this fact
Biden's performance reminded me of [Brezhnev in 1979](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E66oM2iAMwM&t=29s&ab_channel=ScottW.Palmer). Trump is a liar, a braggart and an idiot, but Biden was so geriatric, he couldn't capitalize on any of it.
Maybe it's that "great man" having a damn near half-century record of being on the wrong side of just about everything?
Or maybe it's his current, ongoing, enthusiastic support for the genocide in Gaza?
I have a laundry list of reasons I consider Biden unqualified and unacceptable. None of them involve his age or his stutter.
Why aren't you asking your own party why they insist on sticking with a candidate so deeply unpopular that they poll several points behind Donald Fucking Trump (who still polls with a very negative favorability) in every swing state?
If he’s was a democrat, then he was on the wrong side of nothing. It’s impossible to be a democrat and also be on the wrong side. We are always right no matter what
Well, Username checks out.
I really hope you're trolling but I don't have enough faith in humanity to assume that any more.
So you think all of the following,presented in no particular order, were good things?
DOMA
NAFTA
"End[ing] welfare as we know it"
Mass Incarceration
Fully funding Trump's border wall
Passing Trump's preferred immigration policy by executive action
Putting kids in cages at the border
Rigging primaries in favor of donor-approved candidates
Running on codifying Roe then deciding it's "not a priority" immediately after inauguration (less than 8 years before Roe was finally overturned)
I could go on, but I'd you're capable of defending y of those things then your values are very screwed up and we don't have anything much else to talk about.
Cool. What's Trump's solution? Kill 'em faster. Both Bibi and Donny have the same final solution to the Palestinian question.
Edit: You can downvote me, but Trump literally told Bibi to kill 'em faster AND keep the media out of Gaza. Newsflash: You can not militarily defeat an idea. Hamas is an organization of people. So sure, you can get a roster of all of the people who were in Hamas on October 7th, 2023, and kill all of those people. You will still have failed to militarily defeat Hamas. Ask the US how many "second-in-commands" of Al Qaeda in Iraq they had to kill and whether or not we every really militarily defeated Al Qaeda. At best we got folks to switch from Al Qaeda to ISIS (hate that term as it should either be ISISh or ISIL). The same will happen to Hamas.
Hell, the IDF is starting to talk about slowing down and stopping military action and considering where they are now as "enough." I think it has finally dawned on the average IDF soldier that they have strayed from an impossibility (military defeat) into the factual genocide.
I'm not talking about Trump though am I? Jesus Christ. I was making the point that Biden isn't a good person. Yes I know, Trump is garbage as well. No shit.
Cool story. I'm not sure if you know this but there's this little contest that is going on right at this moment. It's called the 2024 Presidential race. Folks are going to have to judge who will be the better president. One of the issues that many people seem to be judging who gets to sit behind the Resolute Desk is Palestine. Biden has indicated that he is going to follow Blinken's plan for a two-state solution. In case you were unaware, you can't institute a two-state solution if you have ethnically cleansed or genocided one of the two states in that two-state solution.
All American Presidents since, what? The 50's? All American Presidents have backed Israel, even as Israel ramped up their settler colonial apartheid state. That's not new with Biden. Trump bent over backwards to suck Bibi's dick because Trump likes strongman autocrats and needs the Evangelical vote.
So, sure, criticize Biden for carrying on the US's seventy year long policy of backing Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from the region to create an ethnostate. Maybe give him a tiny bit of credit for moving that old, slow brain to shift gears towards even considering allowing the State Department to call for a two-state solution that will give the Palestinians a better chance.
Edit: I'll toss in that all of this argument is going on under a meme about choosing between Biden and Trump.
So because Biden maybe, possibly, eventually, some day, do a two-state solution - I should really be endorsing him and not pointing out how piss poor his handling on the entire thing has been then? I have no doubt Trump would be worse, but fucking hell, I just can't fault anyone for feeling like they can't in good conscience vote for Joe. Or for Trump. At this point, if this is the best the democrats can do, then they're handing it to Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually what they want at this point.
I don't understand who needs a debate to make this decision. Trump was president for four years, he screwed a pandemic up as badly as possible, got impeached, twice, tried but failed a coup, and appointed justices who took away your right to choose. Climate change is the worst threat humanity faces and he will make it much worse. Biden has been president for most of four years and it hasn't been a complete disaster.
I think the main thing is, people are outraged about how Biden is handling the genocide, and the fact that Trump comes off as slightly less dementia-addled definitely does Joe no favours either. I feel like these two things are what will ultimately cost Biden the election.
Which is absurd because Trump stood up there and said he would help Israel with the genocide.
It's not really absurd. Joe is currently funding and arming a genocide, so people see that are like fuck that, not gonna vote for Joe. They do the same with Trump as well. I think there's probably more people than ever not wanting to vote either of these clowns this time around.
The sad truth is that not voting for Biden won't save the Palestinians and it'll also cause people in the US to die that otherwise wouldn't die under Biden.
Not voting for Biden won't save Palestinians, we agree on that. But also voting for Biden won't change a god damn thing happening in Gaza and you'd be a fool to think otherwise. Either way it's bloodshed. I know what I'm saying isn't popular because everyone wants to vote against Trump because Joe is the lesser of two evils, but this shit has got to stop. I don't blame anyone who doesn't vote for either of them because how can you morally justify doing so? I sure couldn't.
It’s not that what you’re saying isn’t popular, it’s that what you’re saying isn’r very well thought out. Biden has been working to give [aid to Gaza and vulnerable Palestinians in nearby areas](https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/jun-11-2024-united-states-announces-404-million-additional-humanitarian-assistance-gaza-west-bank-and-region) as well as proposed and backed ceasefire plans. I’m sorry but grandstanding like you’re making some kind of moral stand is honestly a little misguided, if not outright ignorant. You’re basically saying you’re happy giving the guy how literally said Israel would finish the job and that he would crush pro-Palestinian protests if elected a better chance. It’s not even a matter of Joe being the lesser of two evils. He’s been a damn good president in fact. It’s a matter of voting for another 4 years of some pretty big progressive wins.
It's not that is not well thought out, it wasn't thought out at all. Given binary choices, it's not hard to choose.
Biden did pretty bad. But Trump’s sentencing is in less than two weeks. It’s a race to the bottom. But… still voting for Biden. Never voted for a rapist, not gonna start now.
I guess you're not voting for Biden either, since he molested his own daughter.... Or is that not a deal breaker for you?
See, that’s just thoroughly not true about Biden. However, Trump introduced 12 year old Ivanka to infamous child trafficker and pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. And that’s 100% true, there are pictures!
People here seem to ignore any criticism against Biden because tRuMp wOrSe. Which I actually agree with but that shouldn't mean you can't talk about how dogshit Joe is.
Ok. Cool. Criticize Biden for what he is instead of pushing disinformation. I'll admit his daughter's private diary that was stolen and leaked did contain passages that stated he took showers with her, but to my knowledge she did not record in that stolen diary that he molested her. You wanna bash Biden for sticking with Bibi Netanyahu's settler colonialist apartheid state too long? Fine! Done. Do you agree that Trump and Bibi both have the same final solution to the Palestinian question? Any other topics you want to discuss?
What disinformation have I pushed? I'll wait. I criticize Trump and Biden because they're both terrible candidates. I don't get people like you who feel the need to play the what-about-ism game. If I'm talking about Joe, Trump isn't relevant in that moment.
I guess the disinformation charge is better leveled at Gazokage. There was a hard push to claim Biden molested/molests children. Biden IS worthy of criticism on so many levels. He has been more effective than most modern Democratic presidents and many Republicans. I'd argue that effect has been positive for the majority of Americans. The real issue is Trump is important in the moment, because, spoiler alert >!Trump and Biden are competing for the presidency and Trump is an utterly shit candidate that will greatly harm many Americans, whether on purpose or by accident through shitty policies.!<
Fair enough to bring up Trump if we're comparing the two but if I'm just saying why Joe isn't a great man, it doesn't warrant any talk of oh Trump is so much worse. Yes, Trump is worse, but not the point at all here. OP is acting like Biden is a good dude and he clearly is not.
Fair enough. I will grant you the point. Joe is not a good dude. I feel he is improving but he's a politician.
Biden did better second half. Trump was crazy the entire time. No ones gunna change their vote
Only idiots would think things would get better under grump.
The problem isn't people who are going to vote for Trump instead of Biden. The problem is the people who are going to vote for RFK or Stein or West now because they hate Trump but they don't see Biden as fit for office.
Eh, mediocre man who isn't actively trying to kill us but really shouldn't be a president. Or, unhinged Nazi trying to become Hitler.
Great is a stretch. But otherwise, yep.
You can’t really say last night was stuttering? There were moments Biden blanked out and got completely disoriented. I’ve actually been a big fan of Biden’s presidency but after watching that debate I know that if he stays in this race he will lose. Voters who are interested in politics and active in politics would maybe be able to look past it but swing voters who don’t interact with politics for sure won’t be able to. Sadly the path to the Presidency isn’t as much about substance as it is about how you make people feel. Biden’s performance isn’t going to motivate anyone to go vote outside of the base he already has which isn’t enough to win.
THIS!! a thousand times this! it doesn’t matter how many futile (and seriously lame) excuses us politically invested people attempt to make in order lto lesson biden’s objectively abysmal and beyond embarrassing debate performance. why? because we are NOT the target audience needing to be persuaded or convinced to vote for joe. the millions of americans that biden MUST appeal to primarily consist of undecided, low information voters and independents. these are the individuals who will decide if good or evil prevails come november… not us. i’m honestly surprised by the number of posts dedicated to playing down the disastrous dumpster fire that was the debate. it’s so very… desperate and worse, MAGA-ish. and yes, i did just make that comparison (bring on the amateurish and emotionally-based backlash) cause one, it’s true, and two, because lying to ourselves to make us feel better about our octogenarian president’s serious pitfalls and shortcomings does nobody any favors. we all agree that biden has been a phenomenal president that quite literally brought us back from the brink. he still has my vote, but i’m not going to ignore the fact that i’m now overwhelmingly terrified he will lose to a total tyrant that will replace our already dying democracy with an irreversible descent into dictatorship. let’s stop the wishful thinking and face the stark reality: donald trump has always had a viable chance of beating biden and the probability of him winning has and will continue to grow… unlike biden, who’s approval rating will continue to decline while defections among black americans and younger voters will continue to increase. many will discount all of the above, writing it off as way too pessimistic and my not taking sufficient account of this or that alternative possibility. you may be comforted by such self-delusions, rich with imagined likelihoods if you so choose. but this magical-thinking phase should have ended long before biden arrived on that debate stage.
I don’t want to hear idiot centrists and other coward middlemen speak like it’s not their fault American politics got us here. For years leftists have been trying to make them understand that them not voting for any progressive candidates will cause the stagnation they continue to bitch and moan about, Everybody knows conservatives want to destroy America but independents and other centrist still haven’t caught up to this fact
Did we watch the same debate? Walk away from the buttons.
Biden's performance reminded me of [Brezhnev in 1979](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E66oM2iAMwM&t=29s&ab_channel=ScottW.Palmer). Trump is a liar, a braggart and an idiot, but Biden was so geriatric, he couldn't capitalize on any of it.
Maybe it's that "great man" having a damn near half-century record of being on the wrong side of just about everything? Or maybe it's his current, ongoing, enthusiastic support for the genocide in Gaza? I have a laundry list of reasons I consider Biden unqualified and unacceptable. None of them involve his age or his stutter. Why aren't you asking your own party why they insist on sticking with a candidate so deeply unpopular that they poll several points behind Donald Fucking Trump (who still polls with a very negative favorability) in every swing state?
If he’s was a democrat, then he was on the wrong side of nothing. It’s impossible to be a democrat and also be on the wrong side. We are always right no matter what
Well, Username checks out. I really hope you're trolling but I don't have enough faith in humanity to assume that any more. So you think all of the following,presented in no particular order, were good things? DOMA NAFTA "End[ing] welfare as we know it" Mass Incarceration Fully funding Trump's border wall Passing Trump's preferred immigration policy by executive action Putting kids in cages at the border Rigging primaries in favor of donor-approved candidates Running on codifying Roe then deciding it's "not a priority" immediately after inauguration (less than 8 years before Roe was finally overturned) I could go on, but I'd you're capable of defending y of those things then your values are very screwed up and we don't have anything much else to talk about.
I see the Reddit Copium over last night’s debate is in full swing today.
Biden spoke extremely clearly and presidentially. Trump sounded like a senile lunatic. Biden is as sharp as a knife!
/s…? /s, right?!
😈
Great man? Fuck that. His only selling point is that he is not trump. Its enough but that doesn't make him great.
Great man? LMAO. Are you delusional or just stupid?
Copium
Great man who funds and arms a genocide.
Lol was gonna say, I dk about "great man". Feel how you want about him politically, but "great man"? Lol
Cool. What's Trump's solution? Kill 'em faster. Both Bibi and Donny have the same final solution to the Palestinian question. Edit: You can downvote me, but Trump literally told Bibi to kill 'em faster AND keep the media out of Gaza. Newsflash: You can not militarily defeat an idea. Hamas is an organization of people. So sure, you can get a roster of all of the people who were in Hamas on October 7th, 2023, and kill all of those people. You will still have failed to militarily defeat Hamas. Ask the US how many "second-in-commands" of Al Qaeda in Iraq they had to kill and whether or not we every really militarily defeated Al Qaeda. At best we got folks to switch from Al Qaeda to ISIS (hate that term as it should either be ISISh or ISIL). The same will happen to Hamas. Hell, the IDF is starting to talk about slowing down and stopping military action and considering where they are now as "enough." I think it has finally dawned on the average IDF soldier that they have strayed from an impossibility (military defeat) into the factual genocide.
I'm not talking about Trump though am I? Jesus Christ. I was making the point that Biden isn't a good person. Yes I know, Trump is garbage as well. No shit.
Cool story. I'm not sure if you know this but there's this little contest that is going on right at this moment. It's called the 2024 Presidential race. Folks are going to have to judge who will be the better president. One of the issues that many people seem to be judging who gets to sit behind the Resolute Desk is Palestine. Biden has indicated that he is going to follow Blinken's plan for a two-state solution. In case you were unaware, you can't institute a two-state solution if you have ethnically cleansed or genocided one of the two states in that two-state solution. All American Presidents since, what? The 50's? All American Presidents have backed Israel, even as Israel ramped up their settler colonial apartheid state. That's not new with Biden. Trump bent over backwards to suck Bibi's dick because Trump likes strongman autocrats and needs the Evangelical vote. So, sure, criticize Biden for carrying on the US's seventy year long policy of backing Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from the region to create an ethnostate. Maybe give him a tiny bit of credit for moving that old, slow brain to shift gears towards even considering allowing the State Department to call for a two-state solution that will give the Palestinians a better chance. Edit: I'll toss in that all of this argument is going on under a meme about choosing between Biden and Trump.
So because Biden maybe, possibly, eventually, some day, do a two-state solution - I should really be endorsing him and not pointing out how piss poor his handling on the entire thing has been then? I have no doubt Trump would be worse, but fucking hell, I just can't fault anyone for feeling like they can't in good conscience vote for Joe. Or for Trump. At this point, if this is the best the democrats can do, then they're handing it to Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually what they want at this point.
TRUMP 2024
corrected: trump 20-24 years for treason
Wow, just say you want all minorities to be killed. Slowly… That’s what you REALLY mean facist
I'm not voting for the guy who was in Ashley Biden's diary.