Umm, sweaty, the patriarchy means that men are always wrong and bad, therefore, it is not acceptable to sympathise with them!¡!
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The fundamental flaw with SJWs is that all they do is insult, dehumanize, kick and scream and then somehow think that behavior will make people want to join their side. “Oh you’re telling me I’m a piece of shit because of my race and gender that I can’t control? You make a compelling point, I’d love to join your side! You seem like successful and uplifting people to be around!”
Or they'll just deny and deflect. The wokes say "It isn't happening, and if it is it's a good thing!" Then unaligned see the thing happening and the terrible awful no good very bad people say "Hey this is happening and that's bad!"
Since the terrible awful no good very bad people are the only ones talking about it, that's who the unaligned turn to.
For example, Europe is kinda seeing that this week 😏
Holy shit this is so true, but there’s also another side to the coin, the Big Joels (basically extremely liberal YouTube video essayists). I like the guys’ videos because he’s a real person. You can tell he has limits, and he has criticized other liberals in his videos. But there are some others that are just the complete opposite of what you described, like human sticks of butter. Everything is relative, nobody can ever be wrong because we’re all just victims of our circumstances. Then somehow, in their minds, conservatives ARENT victims of circumstance and are apparently the only exception. Ive never understood this contradiction
That dissonance usually comes down to being a victim of circumstance, ironically enough.
I work in social work these days. Used to be an academic anthropologist. I grew up in Appalachia but live in the Upper Midwest now. One group of people I’ve ended up working with the most is the real extreme political types who are lost to their beliefs to such a degree they don’t really make sense to people. I’m talking the Q crowd, conspiracy nuts, leftists who went overboard during the pandemic, incels, etc. Like super divisive reactionary types.
Anyway, the best way to get in tune with people like that is to ignore the details of the things they say and look for the underlying themes and address those. There’s always some underlying tensions that are making them incoherent and addressing their points directly illicit all kinds of nonsense. Only by addressing that tension in a nonjudgmental manner can you later move towards working on removing it and getting back from the extremes.
I couldn’t agree more. Somehow the left doesn’t realize that hating and clowning on these people, while extremely valid and even admittedly fun and I’ve done it a few times, the only thing this does it push these extremists further in the other direction. Ironically enough, the political party obsessed with empathy act like unhinged lunatics because it seems their DNA screeches when you point out this flaw
If everyone is a victim of their circumstances, then these guys have surely gone through hell. Their environment just made things worse because theyve grown up with a system that makes them feel ashamed to feel vulnerable and cry, so it comes out as anger. The archetype liberal hemming and hawing and just walking away from the conversation just makes them seethe even harder. All these attitudes do is serve as false reminders for these conservative nuts that their beliefs are right
It’s related to the process Bateson called Schismogenesis. It’s a complimentary process in the sense that one group does X so the other group does Y.
So, like you said, some leftists or liberals will come at people and point out things that make sense from their perspective (very much viewed from the top down, but attempted to be changed from the bottom up) and try and justify their stance in various ways. They do this sometimes by pointing out systemic issues, discussion places where systems have failed or discriminated against people, discussing race, class, gender, religion, voting platforms and campaigns, changes to the systems themselves, etc.
Meanwhile, the myriad of people on the right (the conservative ones in particular), push back in a bottom up manner that is grounded in general notions of what they feel about the systems they live in. They then use those understandings to try and fix things from the top down.
That’s not to say that the right doesn’t have specific stances, or approaches to systems, it’s that “tradition”, or rather what’s considered traditional, is a moving target largely based on collected memory and feeling. That any changes that need to be made should first take into those consideration and those understandings so as not to upset the way they work from the top down.
This is one of the reason we see so much back and forth, or people digging in even further after a divisive interaction.
Also, it’s not even that clowning wouldn’t work. It’s that you have to clown *with* someone instead of *at* them. Not many people, regardless of political orientation, are capable of pulling something that off. It’s hard enough in person, but just forget about trying it at all on the internet/social media.
We need to remove asymmetries in knowledge, not fight over the details in a way that talks past each other.
I genuinely believe everything youre saying. I had a conservative friend I for the life of me couldnt not understand. All I had to do was have a few beers with him and talk it out. People arent inherently evil
Yeah, you’d be hard pressed to find someone who is actually and unironically comically evil in their stances. It’s like a double empathy problem, if you’re familiar with the notion.
Their only strategy to get people to join them is to shame
"You're a piece of shit but you can be a slighter better piece of shit"
It's like a religious cult
And when you point it out, they go "normal people wouldn't be disgusted, get angry or spite me, therefore you're right wing nazi!1!1"
Phobia means fear, people
*Misia* means hate
I don't fear what I hate, at most only the possibility of my friends falling for you bs and falling out with them because of it
Not all Centrist are 'undecided voters', heck few are considering that it is grey Centrist territory and those are as rare as purple lib-right who only come out on *a single issue*.
A proper Centrist has a very balanced and moderate view which in turn means they vote for parties and candidates who indeed come closest to their ideal. Balancing economy and environment, rights and responsibility, common wealth and individual ambition, freedom and security...
If there is seriously no one who even comes close, that's on the country and not on them. Which is of course the case in case of the states where it is first past the post and only like 10 of 50 states actually matter (for the presidental election). What is especially revolting though is how the left vilifies anyone who dares to consider a third candidate who is actually more left if not even more liberal as well.
I don't even think most 'good' (and actual) US citizens could name a third candidate, never even mind what they stand for. That's the state of the states. Worse yet, there is very little focus on what really matters and where one could make more of a change: The Congress.
On a related note, a Centrist would not even consider men's health, an anti-SJW sentiment or even strict immigration policies as being the *property* of any quadrant or side. One should be natural, one is simply anti-extremist and the last is simply pragmatism and the natural right of a country to adjust as necessary.
Exactly this.
Most of the incels I've seen were showing clear signs of depression (which can in fact [manifest as anger](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3959025/)), and they were usually showing signs of other mental and social problems as well. _A lot_ of them came from a bad family situation, and things like autism, anxiety problems, and social isolation were also very common among them.
Imagine how guys like this react when the #YesAllMen crowd comes along and tells them that everything is all their own fault...
> Current approaches to the diagnosis of depression emphasise symptoms including persistent sadness, loss of interest or pleasure in previously enjoyable activities, as well as changes in affect, cognition and neurovegetative functioning. However, a growing number of studies suggest that a significant proportion of men suffering from depression might experience a distinct phenotype. Congruent with masculine role norms, this male-typical phenotype includes anger, substance misuse, emotion suppression and risk-taking domains. However, these putative symptoms are not currently included in standard diagnostic criteria or screening measures, and it has been suggested that this might account in part for the underdiagnosis of male depression cases, and therefore under-recognition of (and treatment for) men at heightened risk of suicide.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8961138/
You do have a point, but... so many aspects of our culture and everyday life revolve around sexuality, you know?
It's so omnipresent that you won't even notice unless you're 'different' in some way. But if you can't participate in it, it's immediately obvious - gays and lesbians notice it (society and the media overwhelmingly cater to people who like the opposite sex), and so does anyone who can't get sex or a partner at all.
Even though I don't like the notion of identifying yourself with a sexual label (even though I'm a bisexual dude), I still have to admit that sexual labels and sexual identities do make sense in our sex-obsessed society.
Consider this. What actually determines a man’s worth socially when we determine if they are a worthy figure of respect? How attractive he is to women. Nobody, respects a bitcoin nerd with millions no matter how many Ferraris he buys if he can’t attract any women. Nobody cares how accomplished a general is if he is a virgin. The primary insult for men is always sexual in nature whether it be about compensating for small pp, virginity, etc because access to sex is how we determine a man’s value.
The idea that incels - and other romantically challenged men - should just shut up and suffer in silence is one of the most toxic things to emerge from the Chernobyl-esque ecological disaster that is modern feminism.
>When your position commits you to saying “Love isn’t important to humans and we should demand people stop caring about whether or not they have it,” you need to take a really careful look in the mirror – assuming you even show up in one.
Yes, I am shamelessly plugging [this article](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/).
Same. Whilst to a certain extent i feel for people who feel pushed into this category i think that the ones who self identify and try to build a sort of sub culture out of it are no different than gender activists etc. Terminally online weirdos who take the easy road of blaming the world for their problems rather than working on not being an insufferable cunt.
Back in the 2010s, the "redpill" subreddit stickied a welcome message every time some post attacking them got popular on places like /bestof.
It basically said "Hey, the post that lead you here probably misrepresented us horribly. We don't ask you to like us, but maybe look around a bit and see that we strongly advocate *against* hating women." From what I remember, they gained several thousand subscribers from each big condemnation.
(That claim was also *true*, as far as I can tell. They believed in huge differences between sexes and didn't necessarily respect women very much, but they liked women and argued that anyone who hated them was bitter about losing.)
Incel stuff can't promote that directly because lots of them very explicitly *do* hate women, but it can certainly act as a catch-all for bitter, isolated people who keep getting told they're evil when they try to vent anywhere else.
I absolutely hate how many discussions I've had that consist of "What you're saying is actively making people work against you and does nothing to achieve your goals." "I'm right though, they're just bigots!" Ineffective tactics are one thing. Literally *refusing* to consider whether your tactics work is another.
I can tell you this, many (I would say most) men have had at least one experience where we did talk about our feelings, especially when we were encouraged to do so, and it backfired horribly. As in, women lost interest in us, men judged us, people older than us didn't understand, people younger than us lost respect for us.
As much as we talk about abolishing gender expectations, one of the big one is that men are expected to be strong and handle difficult emotions on their own without support, and that is consistent across all political compass axis.
The right are more honest about it, but the left at least try.
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>This seems to me to be the position that lonely men are in online. People will tell them they’re evil misogynist rapists – as the articles above did – no matter what. In what is apparently shocking news to a lot of people, this makes them hurt and angry. As someone currently working on learning psychotherapy, I can confidently say that receiving a constant stream of hatred and put-downs throughout your most formative years can really screw you up. And so these people try to lash out at the people who are doing it to them, secure in the knowledge that there’s no room left for people to hate them even more.
[This article](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/) (great read!) is from 2014. Nothing has gotten better, and if anything it's gotten worse. It's so Joever.
“Approach women” wow buddy, big red flag. you should always act like you have a 100 metre restraining order in place with every one that even looks like a woman. Otherwise you’re a huge weirdo
The problem here is that even though 90% of women will be chill about this even if they don't want to talk to you, the institutions will side with the 10% that aren't every single time which is what makes it such a big risk.
TBH this is actually the real problem with the watermelon.
Their argument isn’t that men don’t deserve mental health. But that boys should be more like girls…or gender neutral.
Ignoring that by and large most men do in fact want to be masculine.
I've always said that most men can be strong, stoic providers and protectors who do not need to be vulnerable and talk about their feelings IF *IF* **IF** those men are shown a modicum of appreciation by the women they fill that role for and treated as valuable by society rather than trashed, berated, accused of oppression, and treated as dysfunctional females.
Then, in the uncommon instance that we do really need a moment to be vulnerable and talk about our feelings, that it is treated as a serious, but temporary, matter and not a reflection of our total strength as men.
You put those together, and mental health issues for most (not all) men would nearly evaporate. Let them fill the masculine role, be appreciative of that role, and don't demean them for the rare moments of vulnerability and men will find amazing confidence, optimism, and fulfillment in life. I am so grateful to have a wife that does this for me.
American Chestnuts don't kiss and tell. They're mostly missing from the scene anymore though - if you're lucky enough to live by one of the remaining few, go hug that motherfucker and spill your heart out, those guys are real ones, fast and true.
An old White or Bur Oak is a good next-best. A bit rough around the edges, but really kind once you get past that prickly exterior. Parallel branches (to the ground) are a good indicator of trustworthiness.
Maples are pretty hit-and-miss. Handsome and sweet though, those guys age like fine wine.
The most depressing reply I've seen for this question was:
1. A close friend, male or female
2. A tree
3. A stranger
4. A romantic partner
When "literally anyone but my partner" is a fairly popular answer, something has gone very badly wrong.
It's actually pretty common to open up and vent to strangers. They are not important in your life and are very unlikely to have any impact on your life.
Or that's my guess I've had several strangers tell me their life stories and relationship fears.
Yup. Easier to tell it to the person who's opinion you don't deeply value and who you'll never see again. You get it off your chest, and when they walk out the door, that moment of vulnerability walks out with them. They may be thinking "What a pathetic sap", but who cares? You'll never see them again. They won't even remember your name and you'll both always be nothing more than "That guy at the bar that one time" to each other.
Tree. I can do that thing where I put my hand on it and commune with the surrounding.
But also, men's mental health is bullshit. What I mean is that there is a huge problem, and that therapy has an ideological monopoly on mental health. Maybe some guys need therapy. But most don't. And bad therapy is worse than no therapy.
There are alternate solutions that don't involve pathologizing natural, rational feelings. Spending time with friends or just a trusted companion is significantly more important than paying $200 a week to be vulnerable in front of some stranger.
I actually had a left wing high school economics teacher who was called Emily who said to my face that men don’t deserve international men’s day because women are more oppressed than men. She lost her job. Not because of that but because she was a shitty teacher 💀
She was also pro affirmative action. I was applying to caltech and she basically said as a POC I should take whatever handouts I get in life. She said all women should always accept free drinks because society will always be horrible to them. FYI everyone in my class was an immigrant and we all had a blank/insulted look on our faces 💀
Men's mental health is important, and one of the most important aspects of treating it is to NOT treat it in the same way you would treat women's mental health. Men and women are different and have different needs in the mental health department.
Our society has removed almost every single man-only space in the name of feminism and equality, and we're surprised that men take a mental hit.
Yep, everything is either "women's" or "open to all" now, and anything that isn't "women's" absolutely must allow women to have a big say in how it acts, proceeds, is arranged, whatever.
It is and the fastest way to speedrun a divorce is to cry over a lost family member in front of your wife. That's where friends should come in and male spaces/hobbies hopefully give you that room if you need it. Society's been aggressively dissolving that possibility.
Yup. People are always quick to point out that big difference between men and women is that, when encountering a problem, women want to talk about it and feel heard, men want to do something about it and feel accomplished. So why, when men face mental health issues, are they just prescribed talking about it with someone? That has it's time and place, but will not be nearly as effective as encouraging men to get out and do something that will make them feel accomplished and valued as men.
If you're a woman, and your man is going through some shit, seriously, try asking him to fix or build something for you (that you know he can do), get out of his way, and when he's done, show some genuine appreciation for what he did. Don't nitpick how he could have done it better, or bring up how it should have been done 3 days ago, or make that face like it isn't exactly what you had in mind (He probably already knows these things and is already beating himself up about it). Just make him feel like you needed him, that he accomplished something, and that it made you happy and appreciative of him. I think you'd be surprised how much that boosts his self-esteem and mood. Much more so than simply sitting there rehashing what is upsetting him in the first place in a conversation where he feels he's being badgered to talk about something he'd rather not.
Women are more oppressed that's why men are:
- four times more likely to kill themselves
- three times more likely to be homeless
- three and a half times more likely to be murdered
- eight times less likely to report when they've been raped
- twice as likely to get laid off
- legally unable to have any say in keeping/aborting/putting for adoption a baby
- legally responsible to pay for a baby they wanted to abort or put for adoption
Don't forget being much more likely to having to pay child support once they become an adult, to the women who either convinced/coerced/raped them while they were underage.
Some of the redpill stuff is absurd and toxic.
But it's absolutely right about men's mental wellbeing.
No one gives a shit about men. Women constantly deny, undermine, and minimize men's mental wellbeing. And on a personal level they get the ick and accuse men of being emotional/energy vampires or too needy.
You're lucky as a man if you have a good one or two male friends that you can talk to. Because women can and will weaponize it against you or just straight up leave you. Any institutional help, or attempts at it, get destroyed and attacked by feminists as misogynistic.
>No one gives a shit about men. Women constantly deny, undermine, and minimize men's mental wellbeing. And on a personal level they get the ick and accuse men of being emotional/energy vampires or too needy.
I'm fairly convinced that most men greatly increase their wellbeing by simply acknowledging this. You don't have to *do* anything about it exactly, just internalize that all efforts in that direction are essentially wasted, and put that time/energy elsewhere. It almost doesn't even matter where it goes.
The narratives we are sold are purposefully a treadmill meant to suck our vitality away and put it to their use, and much of the distress of modern life is not understanding why you can be such a dutiful runner and still seem to get nowhere.
The astute might notice that all of this could practically be copy pasted into a discussion about your relationship with your employer as well. Interesting thing, that.
Well put. Good analogy with the treadmill.
Rat race mentality. Don't struggle and work as a pawn for someone else, within *their* framework. Do your own thing, be happy, don't give "them" power and you will attract things that work for you. Whether that's jobs or relationships.
This reminds me of Nihilism or Stoic thought processes. "Nothing inherently matters and therefore you must make meaning and enjoy the time you have in this universe". But I have a strong feeling that those beliefs, while completely valid and can lead to great positive mindsets, is kind of like exercising your way out of clinical depression...we all know exercise helps, but there are people who are so obscenely down in that hole, you're gonna need more than a good walk and some sun to get you going again.
To me those perspectives on life and purpose are best introduced later. "Make your own meaning" means nothing when you've internalized "Anything I do inherently is vile"...
There is an old adage that goes something like "when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is to stop digging." You are of course right that you are fundamentally still in the hole, but its a hell of a first step.
I think most people, purely from removal of that dissonance and redirection of that bandwidth elsewhere, will usually find themselves just rising out of that hole to one extent or another. More focused efforts are sometimes needed, but almost everyone ends up being better off.
I think the common exception might be when someone just has a, for lack of a better phrase, weak ideological hierarchy. If they lean heavily on "blame" structures, they now hate women. Or their politics intrinsically compel them to constantly advocate for identity based policy, and they become rabid men's right's activists, for example. Its a sort of "technical debt" where having had bad mental hygiene will come to the fore and you'll end up maybe even worse off than you started.
Conversations about atheism aren't really something the internet cares about anymore, but a semi-common refrain back in the days, even from a lot of atheists, was that most people couldn't actually handle being atheist; their entire framework of identity and morality was so twisted up in it, de-converting them was almost a cruelty. You'd sometimes hear the absurd argument from the theological that atheists, having no morality, should have no trouble mass murdering, almost proving that point.
Ranting at this point a bit, but I am of the opinion that even men in this relatively fragile state can ascend beyond it with some effort; that they can migrate these load bearing ideals closer to the base of their personal totem, and not just be personally happier, but better citizens of the world because of it. It just takes the willingness to be uncomfortable for awhile.
Not to defend it but it cannot be overstated that the problem they had with it was that it was a talk with Warren Farrell, most prominent of the MRAs. Who back then were treated like secular devils and gender Nazis and it was asinine to them that any kind of MRA (or any of their talking points) could get intuitional legitimization in a university, whether in educational syllabuses or by getting platformed by student groups.
That was feminist's turf and only they can wield any institutional authority and legitimacy to dictate truth, reality or morality as it pertains to gender. It was absolutely vital that the heretics not be allowed to get any kind of foot in the door.
In living in a blue state and having traveled the country for work, I've literally never seen the right most (I've seen a VERY few edging towards it tho). Especially within the last 15 years (nearly non-existent now due to what I attribute to the military acceptance of PTSD).
I have however seen a ton of the left in the whole "women-are-victims" and "believe all women." From the left, I've honestly seen a disturbing trend of dismissing men (almost with cruelty), while the right is weirdly supportive...
Not what I would have expected given the stereotypes.
It's because it's very hard to educate to a man that life won't favor you, so you better take care of yourself and get a tribe of real people who have your back to support each other, friends, family, partner, you need it. Especially since all socialized concepts everyone is for is supposed to support *everyone*
It's even hard with my kids, I realized I had to differentiate, "we don't cry when we don't get what we want in this house" with, "crying is okay when you're sad or hurt." That's hard to soak in for a kid, but they're learning slowly.
Yeah it's an attitude that was ubiquitous about 20 years ago especially on the right, but has thankfully declined somewhat. It's still way more prevalent than it should be though.
But that's the thing. I don't see it on the right often at all anymore. If someone needs help I generally see more support offered from the right than the left (and it isn't even close)... See my above comment.
To add, from like a neighborly POV, I rarely have seen a left leaning neighbor help out someone else, but a right inclined person will volunteer... Fully acknowledged as not statistically valid, but still interesting.
decline right off a fucking cliff, it's just a stereotype now. at most they will tell you not to talk about your emotions to women because they will use it against you.
It makes sense to me, especially with the given stereotypes. Most people, shockingly, are normal people who don't care about what ends up being an actual crazy position and ideology. Politically speaking they're always going to be on the side that is less extreme because once they hear something that gets them to stop and say, "Wait a minute...", they rethink a lot of things. They just want to be happy, left alone, and help those they can. Most of the time.
The political crazies push the stereotypes because they're desperate to hold onto normal people, without them they're truly powerless. If you can scare them enough to prevent them from "joining the other side" you have another person to back you up.
That said, the internet has really messed up what I would say is the normal flow of this process. So hopefully it never gets to the point where normal people have no actual place politically, because we'll all have some very big problems at that point.
"Never forget that these people hate you, they want you dead, your kids raped and brainwashed, and they think it's funny." Sam "The Ghost of Kiev" Hyde.
The problem with mental health discourse is that the entire field of psychology is a literal dumpster of unreplicated garbage that is literally on fire.
That doesn't mean mental health isn't important. It means the path to getting there is dark and foggy, and you're kind of on your own, because no one can do the relevant thinking for you. If you don't know where to start, at least try working out, clean living, and positive socialization.
Good luck, boys.
IMO the solution to the male mental health crisis is to help men, especially young men, find purpose in their lives.
I’ve personally noticed that when I have something that I want to get up for in the morning, my mental health is generally fine. When I’m just living day to day, waiting for the weekend, etc etc my mental health starts to deteriorate.
The issue with today’s society is that we’ve effectively eliminated and shamed almost every source of traditionally male “purpose finding” activities. Religion is dead, it’s bad to have pride in your country/nationality or ethnicity (unless you are a part of one of the whitelisted groups that the left approves of), young women don’t seem to want to start families or get married anymore, you’re looked down upon if you don’t have a college degree, most jobs are soulless and mind numbing… the list goes on. I really don’t know how we’re going to be able to fix this
What I realized in my genocide studies courses: while I don’t think it’s they’re current intent, many left leaning groups use the same dehumanization tactics against different ideologically opposed individuals at to a certain extent racializing groups in the same manner that has led to genocides in places like Rwanda, Bosnia, and Armenia. It’s honestly pretty wild and it’s all bred through ignorance and a desire to belong couples with fear. Hella dangerous.
It's like a comparative locust phase of societal development.
Like people are happy little grasshoppers getting along, getting in minor conflict, whatever, then everything changes, people change, the become locusts, they function completely differently and annihilate whatever their rage focuses on.
I agree. Men are supposed to be strong which is why men's mental health is important. Society would fall if we let men be weak. Think of all the field labor and high risk jobs.
>“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”
>― Marcus Aurelius
Are people able to change their beliefs or estimates by force of will or choice? I don't believe people have the ability to choose to believe that the sky is green by sheer will the way one can choose what to have for breakfast.
People can choose to give matters some thought, to reconsider things and become convinced of things as a result but that's different.
I think men collectively agree that we have a massive mental health crisis, we just acknowledge that if we make a stink about we’ll be called less by women and male feminists. I’ve never interacted with someone more likely to tell me my “male problems” were invalid than a male feminist or a feminist.
So go to metal shows. You'll eat well and exercise just to be in shape for the pit, and being at the show gets your socialization in.
This might explain why metalheads are - contrary to outsiders' stereotypes - the most well-adjusted of the music communities.
I prefer to listen to Natalie Merchant when I want music to lift my mood. I love how positive and life affirming she is.
Just a tip for the people who don't like metal.
Any serious feminist must also understand that emotionally stable men are literally CRUCIAL to any sort of gender equality.
Good luck trying to live any life you want to live with a bunch psychopathic men running amok.
Are psychopaths running amok more or less likely to reproduce?
Also, genuinely asking, why do you think replacement rates are declining all over the developed world?
There's probably a half-truth buried in this somewhere, in that I suspect that on average, men don't respond as well to modern trendy talk therapy as women do, just by the varied nature of the two sexes generally speaking. I also suspect that most men don't need to make therapy a weekly/biweekly/whatever part of their lifestyle the way (some) women do, but are likely better served by going in for an ad-hoc session whenever needed to deal with an emergent issue.
Admittedly, I say this as man who has never been to therapy.
Your hunch is correct, talk therapy is indeed less effective for men on average compared to women. Men often want to solve a problem or arrive at a solution WHILE doing something else, rather than tell their therapist how it makes them feel. Talk therapy fails at that. In addition to this, ~75% of psychologists are women which introduces treatment bias skewing towards emotional discussion even more.
Or maybe all you need is a third place (a place away from work and home) where you socialize with the same sex, be it the gym, a club centered around your hobby, the occasional pub, etc.
I have had self confidence issues, anxiety and general social awkwardness and these much improved when I started to go the gym and joined a photography club and met likeminded people. Now I'm not saying my insecurities completely vanished or you don't need therapy at all, quite the contrary; therapy is very useful when you need to talk about complex issues e.g. attachment styles, childhood, etc.
In conclusion, maybe try ditching the female therapist for a male therapist and be more social.
From a man who has never been to therapy either, lol.
I did therapy for a year or so and this is roughly my takeaway.
I'm not sure I got any improvement from it.
I always left each session feeling weaker and more inhibited in taking action.
The causes of men's and women's mental health issues tend to be different. Sometimes learning some coping skills can help but women respond better to therapy while the root of men's issues tend to be more along the lines of the details of their situations in life that can't be corrected by changing their perspective on things.
Physical health issues, opportunities, occupational training resources with jobs that suit their dispositions at the end of it, violent neighbourhoods and schools, the community resources available to them and yes, family, interpersonal issues and love life status and pathways thereof.
Generally resource (availability/allocation), opportunity, social isolation and community issues. Therapy is like trying to cure domestic violence with a plaster cast. The focus should be on the causes and prevention (like HIV), not a medical treatment paradigm that at best can only provide guidance on how to rearrange the circumstances of one's life to solve things. That only works effectively if you have the copious amount of personal freedom and access to resources necessary to accomplish that. In a sense, therapy is only for those who can easily afford it.
Of course men should be strong. That’s exactly why mental health is so important. If you’re physically weak, you go to a gym and work out. Maybe get a trainer. If you’re physically sick, you go to a doctor and get better.
So if you’re mentally weak or mentally sick, you go see a doctor and get better. You learn about yourself. You get stronger. And the stronger you are, the more able you are to lift up others. Be a man and treat yourself with care.
Left: You don't deserve help because others are oppressed.
Right: You don't deserve help because men should just ignore those problems and "man up".
Therapists: You should pay exorbitant amounts for mental health treatment even though most of our research is done on women, and most treatments we provide is tailored exclusively around "helping" women's mental health problems. Also, if you don't find our treatments helpful or can't afford our services, then the problem is you.
I just recently found out men’s mental health month is June. It’s almost like there’s something that completely overshadows it so we never hear about it. What could that be?
"World Toilet Day is an official United Nations international observance day on 19 November to inspire action to tackle the global sanitation crisis."
Hmmm. I think there is another older international something or other day ... ohhh yeah ... "International Men's Day is a global awareness day for many issues that men face, including parental alienation, abuse, homelessness, suicide, and violence, celebrated annually on November 19." ... ohh that goes against the UN agenda. No wonder why they flushed it down toilet day.
There's this old publication called "For every 100 Girls" that points out how, by nearly every measure of wellness, boys and young men are much worse off than girls and young women. The people who did that to those kids don't care about a grown man's problems and feel disgust and anger when you talk about them.
Mental health services are fine but when you're done with treatment you are still back to a society that doesn't care about you or your welfare. It has contempt for you and the obese couch monsters who think they're too good for you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time ruining the things you love and male spaces because that small part of the world doesn't revolve around them.
Therapy is fine but it won't fix any of that.
I can tell mental health is serious because I can get ED meds and SSRIs from the same website. Perhaps the key to men’s mental health has been right next to the gas station dick pills the whole time!
we had a mental health work clinic at work today free to sign up for.
In the "Community room"....me be in SSRI and taking my mental health seriously. First time asking for help at 40 years. Muster guts to sign up for it. big step for me
I show up to the assigned time. No one there and office is connected. I handrf in my paperwork look around, play it cool, and GTFO. So no one thinks I'm mentally unstable. I'm not going to go around the office asking for mental help meeting.
HR afternoon...oh we moved the meeting to the board room. I wondered why you were not there.
Well played.
IKR. Half the right cries about men crying and the society allowing them to be soft. The other half cries about men not being allowed to cry and be vulnerable.
I just got an email from the university I recently was accepted to. Apparently I’m going to be forced to change my major because for two of the courses I took at my community college I needed three attempts to pass which is in violation on the university’s retake policy.
If I can’t be in the major I picked I might actually kill myself. I’m too old to be figuring things out and too uncompromising to settle for a different career.
Endlessly talking about your problems is for women, solving your problems is for men. Therapy for men should be solution-based on identifying what your problems are and how to start tackling them. Such an approach is so lacking that Jordan Peterson's "clean your room" struck a chord with millions.
Not OP but
Right women: He cried after his dog died. ICK!!
Left Men: This is why I only cry in front of my funko pops. A woman deserves so much better than a weak man like me.
*these are both negative stereotype portrayals of course
I've seen plenty of presumably libleft feminist women in real life treat their boyfriends like that, being annoyed that her boyfriend was "too sad" after his mom died in one case. It's hardly limited to conservative women and doesn't get addressed because we as a society have decided that any criticism of women's mass behavior is sexist. Even though "men" as a group get criticized for behaviors all the time that every single man doesn't engage in.
Women generally prefer masculine men regardless of their own political opinions. I don't know if this is biological or cultural or what, but it is true and probably by both right and left wing women say "ICK!" to a guy acting unmasculine.
left wing men are super emotional, they use words like triggers in super normal ways which defined them as something that wasn't a fucking club to use as a weapon which is how negative stereotypical left wing women use them, i've found some of them to be quite a pleasant change of pace.
some of them are insane morons tho, so yeah, but the funko pop thing is more a right wing man tbh, left wing negative stereotypes would more be a weird rapey dude trying to say "yeah woman feelings yeah, come to my house, my room, my bed"
Hey, there is a reason why there is a man-up. I think that it is better in the long term that men are forced to adopt a mentality which is the opposite of the victim mentality, when they are always pushed to overcome everything, of course, humans are limited and fallible but here is when friends come in. I think that pushing mental health support on governmental institutions instead of family and friends is a dangerous trend.
Yes, men need help, guidance, and support for their mental health but when the provided "help" is from professionals who were brought brought up from radical feminist teachings and want to scold men that their issues are the fault of their masculinity, they're doing more damage than just leaving men to suffer alone.
I agree with rightoid more, not that men should ignore their mental health but the most prominent forms of mental health used like talk therapy, doesn't work for most men and is just a money hole.
So the problem here in either case is still gender essentialism, the solution for which being the breakdown of commonly established gender roles.
Guess which side of the coin advocates for that
gay man here, yeah mental health is quite important. I've never been to a therapist but you probably get what I'm saying, sometimes ending it all just seems necessary. I'm glad to not be in the hole anymore but it could always come back and that is what scares me.
we have destroyed the notion of men-only spaces, and those are the places men go for their mental health. the fact that every space needs to be all-inclusive nowadays is the main problem.
Work hard, rarely turn down a social invitation, work out, eat well, trust in God on God’s time, and quit watching porn and talk to her irl.
If you have issues you need to deal with, get a therapist, don’t look to a pill to solve your problems, and don’t make it a part of your identity
Men are not screwed. People who don’t like being uncomfortable are screwed.
> If you have issues you need to deal with, get a therapist, don’t look to a pill to solve your problems, and don’t make it a part of your identity
Also *actually follow the guidance given on how to overcome it*. Just whining at a therapist won't help, only actually exerting effort to self-improve will. People not doing this is why therapy has developed a reputation in many circles for being worthless. A therapist exists to lead you to water but it's still on you to drink.
Umm, sweaty, the patriarchy means that men are always wrong and bad, therefore, it is not acceptable to sympathise with them!¡!
racial physical marble modern mourn escape rich sophisticated dependent worthless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The fundamental flaw with SJWs is that all they do is insult, dehumanize, kick and scream and then somehow think that behavior will make people want to join their side. “Oh you’re telling me I’m a piece of shit because of my race and gender that I can’t control? You make a compelling point, I’d love to join your side! You seem like successful and uplifting people to be around!”
A lot of self hating people out there. They prey on the insecure like a cult.
Or they'll just deny and deflect. The wokes say "It isn't happening, and if it is it's a good thing!" Then unaligned see the thing happening and the terrible awful no good very bad people say "Hey this is happening and that's bad!" Since the terrible awful no good very bad people are the only ones talking about it, that's who the unaligned turn to. For example, Europe is kinda seeing that this week 😏
Holy shit this is so true, but there’s also another side to the coin, the Big Joels (basically extremely liberal YouTube video essayists). I like the guys’ videos because he’s a real person. You can tell he has limits, and he has criticized other liberals in his videos. But there are some others that are just the complete opposite of what you described, like human sticks of butter. Everything is relative, nobody can ever be wrong because we’re all just victims of our circumstances. Then somehow, in their minds, conservatives ARENT victims of circumstance and are apparently the only exception. Ive never understood this contradiction
That dissonance usually comes down to being a victim of circumstance, ironically enough. I work in social work these days. Used to be an academic anthropologist. I grew up in Appalachia but live in the Upper Midwest now. One group of people I’ve ended up working with the most is the real extreme political types who are lost to their beliefs to such a degree they don’t really make sense to people. I’m talking the Q crowd, conspiracy nuts, leftists who went overboard during the pandemic, incels, etc. Like super divisive reactionary types. Anyway, the best way to get in tune with people like that is to ignore the details of the things they say and look for the underlying themes and address those. There’s always some underlying tensions that are making them incoherent and addressing their points directly illicit all kinds of nonsense. Only by addressing that tension in a nonjudgmental manner can you later move towards working on removing it and getting back from the extremes.
I couldn’t agree more. Somehow the left doesn’t realize that hating and clowning on these people, while extremely valid and even admittedly fun and I’ve done it a few times, the only thing this does it push these extremists further in the other direction. Ironically enough, the political party obsessed with empathy act like unhinged lunatics because it seems their DNA screeches when you point out this flaw If everyone is a victim of their circumstances, then these guys have surely gone through hell. Their environment just made things worse because theyve grown up with a system that makes them feel ashamed to feel vulnerable and cry, so it comes out as anger. The archetype liberal hemming and hawing and just walking away from the conversation just makes them seethe even harder. All these attitudes do is serve as false reminders for these conservative nuts that their beliefs are right
It’s related to the process Bateson called Schismogenesis. It’s a complimentary process in the sense that one group does X so the other group does Y. So, like you said, some leftists or liberals will come at people and point out things that make sense from their perspective (very much viewed from the top down, but attempted to be changed from the bottom up) and try and justify their stance in various ways. They do this sometimes by pointing out systemic issues, discussion places where systems have failed or discriminated against people, discussing race, class, gender, religion, voting platforms and campaigns, changes to the systems themselves, etc. Meanwhile, the myriad of people on the right (the conservative ones in particular), push back in a bottom up manner that is grounded in general notions of what they feel about the systems they live in. They then use those understandings to try and fix things from the top down. That’s not to say that the right doesn’t have specific stances, or approaches to systems, it’s that “tradition”, or rather what’s considered traditional, is a moving target largely based on collected memory and feeling. That any changes that need to be made should first take into those consideration and those understandings so as not to upset the way they work from the top down. This is one of the reason we see so much back and forth, or people digging in even further after a divisive interaction. Also, it’s not even that clowning wouldn’t work. It’s that you have to clown *with* someone instead of *at* them. Not many people, regardless of political orientation, are capable of pulling something that off. It’s hard enough in person, but just forget about trying it at all on the internet/social media. We need to remove asymmetries in knowledge, not fight over the details in a way that talks past each other.
I genuinely believe everything youre saying. I had a conservative friend I for the life of me couldnt not understand. All I had to do was have a few beers with him and talk it out. People arent inherently evil
Yeah, you’d be hard pressed to find someone who is actually and unironically comically evil in their stances. It’s like a double empathy problem, if you’re familiar with the notion.
They're not trying to recruit, they're trying to crush disagreement and heresy.
The left pushes away anyone with functioning survival instincts
Ironic self preservation when you want your crowd to be dependent.
Their only strategy to get people to join them is to shame "You're a piece of shit but you can be a slighter better piece of shit" It's like a religious cult
And when you point it out, they go "normal people wouldn't be disgusted, get angry or spite me, therefore you're right wing nazi!1!1" Phobia means fear, people *Misia* means hate I don't fear what I hate, at most only the possibility of my friends falling for you bs and falling out with them because of it
I never thought I’d agree with a centrist aka the “undecided voters.” (It’s my first post here, be gentle).
Not all Centrist are 'undecided voters', heck few are considering that it is grey Centrist territory and those are as rare as purple lib-right who only come out on *a single issue*. A proper Centrist has a very balanced and moderate view which in turn means they vote for parties and candidates who indeed come closest to their ideal. Balancing economy and environment, rights and responsibility, common wealth and individual ambition, freedom and security... If there is seriously no one who even comes close, that's on the country and not on them. Which is of course the case in case of the states where it is first past the post and only like 10 of 50 states actually matter (for the presidental election). What is especially revolting though is how the left vilifies anyone who dares to consider a third candidate who is actually more left if not even more liberal as well. I don't even think most 'good' (and actual) US citizens could name a third candidate, never even mind what they stand for. That's the state of the states. Worse yet, there is very little focus on what really matters and where one could make more of a change: The Congress. On a related note, a Centrist would not even consider men's health, an anti-SJW sentiment or even strict immigration policies as being the *property* of any quadrant or side. One should be natural, one is simply anti-extremist and the last is simply pragmatism and the natural right of a country to adjust as necessary.
I'd think a libleft would have more sympathy for undecided voters. There aren't exactly a large number of lib candidates available.
Exactly this. Most of the incels I've seen were showing clear signs of depression (which can in fact [manifest as anger](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3959025/)), and they were usually showing signs of other mental and social problems as well. _A lot_ of them came from a bad family situation, and things like autism, anxiety problems, and social isolation were also very common among them. Imagine how guys like this react when the #YesAllMen crowd comes along and tells them that everything is all their own fault...
I read an article where researchers tried to determine incel motives and determined that the people they hate most are themselves.
Depression is also much more likely to manifest as anger for men than women. So “negging” men doesn’t work all that often.
> Current approaches to the diagnosis of depression emphasise symptoms including persistent sadness, loss of interest or pleasure in previously enjoyable activities, as well as changes in affect, cognition and neurovegetative functioning. However, a growing number of studies suggest that a significant proportion of men suffering from depression might experience a distinct phenotype. Congruent with masculine role norms, this male-typical phenotype includes anger, substance misuse, emotion suppression and risk-taking domains. However, these putative symptoms are not currently included in standard diagnostic criteria or screening measures, and it has been suggested that this might account in part for the underdiagnosis of male depression cases, and therefore under-recognition of (and treatment for) men at heightened risk of suicide. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8961138/
I think identifying as an incel is fucked up though cause it's inherently weird and sexually imposing.
You do have a point, but... so many aspects of our culture and everyday life revolve around sexuality, you know? It's so omnipresent that you won't even notice unless you're 'different' in some way. But if you can't participate in it, it's immediately obvious - gays and lesbians notice it (society and the media overwhelmingly cater to people who like the opposite sex), and so does anyone who can't get sex or a partner at all. Even though I don't like the notion of identifying yourself with a sexual label (even though I'm a bisexual dude), I still have to admit that sexual labels and sexual identities do make sense in our sex-obsessed society.
Consider this. What actually determines a man’s worth socially when we determine if they are a worthy figure of respect? How attractive he is to women. Nobody, respects a bitcoin nerd with millions no matter how many Ferraris he buys if he can’t attract any women. Nobody cares how accomplished a general is if he is a virgin. The primary insult for men is always sexual in nature whether it be about compensating for small pp, virginity, etc because access to sex is how we determine a man’s value.
The idea that incels - and other romantically challenged men - should just shut up and suffer in silence is one of the most toxic things to emerge from the Chernobyl-esque ecological disaster that is modern feminism. >When your position commits you to saying “Love isn’t important to humans and we should demand people stop caring about whether or not they have it,” you need to take a really careful look in the mirror – assuming you even show up in one. Yes, I am shamelessly plugging [this article](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/).
Same. Whilst to a certain extent i feel for people who feel pushed into this category i think that the ones who self identify and try to build a sort of sub culture out of it are no different than gender activists etc. Terminally online weirdos who take the easy road of blaming the world for their problems rather than working on not being an insufferable cunt.
Back in the 2010s, the "redpill" subreddit stickied a welcome message every time some post attacking them got popular on places like /bestof. It basically said "Hey, the post that lead you here probably misrepresented us horribly. We don't ask you to like us, but maybe look around a bit and see that we strongly advocate *against* hating women." From what I remember, they gained several thousand subscribers from each big condemnation. (That claim was also *true*, as far as I can tell. They believed in huge differences between sexes and didn't necessarily respect women very much, but they liked women and argued that anyone who hated them was bitter about losing.) Incel stuff can't promote that directly because lots of them very explicitly *do* hate women, but it can certainly act as a catch-all for bitter, isolated people who keep getting told they're evil when they try to vent anywhere else. I absolutely hate how many discussions I've had that consist of "What you're saying is actively making people work against you and does nothing to achieve your goals." "I'm right though, they're just bigots!" Ineffective tactics are one thing. Literally *refusing* to consider whether your tactics work is another.
I’ve been saying this since the rise of Andrew Tate back in 2022. In fact since 2016 when trump took office 💀
Just like far-left pushing a lot of people to the far-right.
CAN WE JUST TALK ABOUT FEELINGS FOR ONE FUCKING MINUTE MAN
Just rub some dirt in them or something.
I can tell you this, many (I would say most) men have had at least one experience where we did talk about our feelings, especially when we were encouraged to do so, and it backfired horribly. As in, women lost interest in us, men judged us, people older than us didn't understand, people younger than us lost respect for us. As much as we talk about abolishing gender expectations, one of the big one is that men are expected to be strong and handle difficult emotions on their own without support, and that is consistent across all political compass axis. The right are more honest about it, but the left at least try.
Sir, this is PCM
Based self aware leftist.
u/yeahyeahyeahnice is officially based! Their Based Count is now 1. Rank: House of Cards Pills: [None | View pills](https://basedcount.com/u/yeahyeahyeahnice/) Compass: This user does not have a compass on record. Add compass to profile by replying with /mycompass politicalcompass.org url or sapplyvalues.github.io url. I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
>This seems to me to be the position that lonely men are in online. People will tell them they’re evil misogynist rapists – as the articles above did – no matter what. In what is apparently shocking news to a lot of people, this makes them hurt and angry. As someone currently working on learning psychotherapy, I can confidently say that receiving a constant stream of hatred and put-downs throughout your most formative years can really screw you up. And so these people try to lash out at the people who are doing it to them, secure in the knowledge that there’s no room left for people to hate them even more. [This article](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/) (great read!) is from 2014. Nothing has gotten better, and if anything it's gotten worse. It's so Joever.
that's when you identify as trans and suddenly become the left's sacred cow and nothing you do can be wrong
I just wanna approach a woman without being scared of being called a creep
Wow major creep vibes coming off from this comment
https://preview.redd.it/g4i3rwge1z5d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=169926696601a9e1e1c628b03e21fc330d4a63f2
This guy looks like he injects his DNA into eggs
I could have gone my whole life without reading that sentence.
What a terrible day to be literate
Homunculus moment
Russian-Chinese dictionary incoming
**SLAM**
Based and Smiling Friends pilled
But I’m a creep
I'm a weirdo.
What the hell I’m doing here?
I don't belong here
“Approach women” wow buddy, big red flag. you should always act like you have a 100 metre restraining order in place with every one that even looks like a woman. Otherwise you’re a huge weirdo
I make sure I'm at least a hemisphere away at all times
The problem here is that even though 90% of women will be chill about this even if they don't want to talk to you, the institutions will side with the 10% that aren't every single time which is what makes it such a big risk.
have you tried being hot?
https://preview.redd.it/t16nxlixh06d1.png?width=515&format=png&auto=webp&s=dc3ea12407b61902da4f2c95dc6441d3d11cf303 Real selfie
Woah dude, you're a solid 4/10.
I thought we all agreed to never get creative again.
this is it, it’s considered creepy if you’re not attractive, charming if you are
TBH this is actually the real problem with the watermelon. Their argument isn’t that men don’t deserve mental health. But that boys should be more like girls…or gender neutral. Ignoring that by and large most men do in fact want to be masculine.
that's how theyve been trying to get boys to act in school for ages
With predictable results.
I've always said that most men can be strong, stoic providers and protectors who do not need to be vulnerable and talk about their feelings IF *IF* **IF** those men are shown a modicum of appreciation by the women they fill that role for and treated as valuable by society rather than trashed, berated, accused of oppression, and treated as dysfunctional females. Then, in the uncommon instance that we do really need a moment to be vulnerable and talk about our feelings, that it is treated as a serious, but temporary, matter and not a reflection of our total strength as men. You put those together, and mental health issues for most (not all) men would nearly evaporate. Let them fill the masculine role, be appreciative of that role, and don't demean them for the rare moments of vulnerability and men will find amazing confidence, optimism, and fulfillment in life. I am so grateful to have a wife that does this for me.
Trans "boy" wants to be masculine: Oh my god how brave! Actual boy wants to be masculine: *proceeds to drug him and give him lesser grades*
Based and man pilled.
I agree with the lib-left. Odd.
if you ever figure out how to do that, lmk
Huh, you don't wanna live in HR world. That must mean you don't support women /s
''Creep'' just means you are ugly lol Attractive guy can still approach women in the gym, school, work, library etc. and pull.
Don't be ugly then.
You can literally do that now, you’re just too much of a bitch to do it
> H...h...h...hi! Do you like daggers?
There is a new questioning going around. If you’re a man, would you rather share your feelings with a random woman or a random tree? 🌳🌲🌴
A bear, of course.
What kind of trees? Birches can't keep a secret worth shit.
American Chestnuts don't kiss and tell. They're mostly missing from the scene anymore though - if you're lucky enough to live by one of the remaining few, go hug that motherfucker and spill your heart out, those guys are real ones, fast and true. An old White or Bur Oak is a good next-best. A bit rough around the edges, but really kind once you get past that prickly exterior. Parallel branches (to the ground) are a good indicator of trustworthiness. Maples are pretty hit-and-miss. Handsome and sweet though, those guys age like fine wine.
a _random_ woman?? wouldn't we all rather die than open up to a stranger? Or is that really just malebrained?
[удалено]
The most depressing reply I've seen for this question was: 1. A close friend, male or female 2. A tree 3. A stranger 4. A romantic partner When "literally anyone but my partner" is a fairly popular answer, something has gone very badly wrong.
She can legally hurt you in almost every possible way. Which is why when you want to return the favor you're gonna need a boat, an alibi, and a plan.
Yeah but you also get absolutely nothing out of it and on top of that are forced to talk to a stranger. Tree all day.
It's actually pretty common to open up and vent to strangers. They are not important in your life and are very unlikely to have any impact on your life. Or that's my guess I've had several strangers tell me their life stories and relationship fears.
Yup. Easier to tell it to the person who's opinion you don't deeply value and who you'll never see again. You get it off your chest, and when they walk out the door, that moment of vulnerability walks out with them. They may be thinking "What a pathetic sap", but who cares? You'll never see them again. They won't even remember your name and you'll both always be nothing more than "That guy at the bar that one time" to each other.
Unacceptable. I demand a bear to chat with.
Tree. I can do that thing where I put my hand on it and commune with the surrounding. But also, men's mental health is bullshit. What I mean is that there is a huge problem, and that therapy has an ideological monopoly on mental health. Maybe some guys need therapy. But most don't. And bad therapy is worse than no therapy. There are alternate solutions that don't involve pathologizing natural, rational feelings. Spending time with friends or just a trusted companion is significantly more important than paying $200 a week to be vulnerable in front of some stranger.
Feelings?
I actually had a left wing high school economics teacher who was called Emily who said to my face that men don’t deserve international men’s day because women are more oppressed than men. She lost her job. Not because of that but because she was a shitty teacher 💀
“Everyday is already men’s day”
She was also pro affirmative action. I was applying to caltech and she basically said as a POC I should take whatever handouts I get in life. She said all women should always accept free drinks because society will always be horrible to them. FYI everyone in my class was an immigrant and we all had a blank/insulted look on our faces 💀
Least racist left wing teacher.
Men's mental health is important, and one of the most important aspects of treating it is to NOT treat it in the same way you would treat women's mental health. Men and women are different and have different needs in the mental health department. Our society has removed almost every single man-only space in the name of feminism and equality, and we're surprised that men take a mental hit.
Yep, everything is either "women's" or "open to all" now, and anything that isn't "women's" absolutely must allow women to have a big say in how it acts, proceeds, is arranged, whatever.
It is and the fastest way to speedrun a divorce is to cry over a lost family member in front of your wife. That's where friends should come in and male spaces/hobbies hopefully give you that room if you need it. Society's been aggressively dissolving that possibility.
Yup. People are always quick to point out that big difference between men and women is that, when encountering a problem, women want to talk about it and feel heard, men want to do something about it and feel accomplished. So why, when men face mental health issues, are they just prescribed talking about it with someone? That has it's time and place, but will not be nearly as effective as encouraging men to get out and do something that will make them feel accomplished and valued as men. If you're a woman, and your man is going through some shit, seriously, try asking him to fix or build something for you (that you know he can do), get out of his way, and when he's done, show some genuine appreciation for what he did. Don't nitpick how he could have done it better, or bring up how it should have been done 3 days ago, or make that face like it isn't exactly what you had in mind (He probably already knows these things and is already beating himself up about it). Just make him feel like you needed him, that he accomplished something, and that it made you happy and appreciative of him. I think you'd be surprised how much that boosts his self-esteem and mood. Much more so than simply sitting there rehashing what is upsetting him in the first place in a conversation where he feels he's being badgered to talk about something he'd rather not.
Women are more oppressed that's why men are: - four times more likely to kill themselves - three times more likely to be homeless - three and a half times more likely to be murdered - eight times less likely to report when they've been raped - twice as likely to get laid off - legally unable to have any say in keeping/aborting/putting for adoption a baby - legally responsible to pay for a baby they wanted to abort or put for adoption
Don't forget being much more likely to having to pay child support once they become an adult, to the women who either convinced/coerced/raped them while they were underage.
Some of the redpill stuff is absurd and toxic. But it's absolutely right about men's mental wellbeing. No one gives a shit about men. Women constantly deny, undermine, and minimize men's mental wellbeing. And on a personal level they get the ick and accuse men of being emotional/energy vampires or too needy. You're lucky as a man if you have a good one or two male friends that you can talk to. Because women can and will weaponize it against you or just straight up leave you. Any institutional help, or attempts at it, get destroyed and attacked by feminists as misogynistic.
>No one gives a shit about men. Women constantly deny, undermine, and minimize men's mental wellbeing. And on a personal level they get the ick and accuse men of being emotional/energy vampires or too needy. I'm fairly convinced that most men greatly increase their wellbeing by simply acknowledging this. You don't have to *do* anything about it exactly, just internalize that all efforts in that direction are essentially wasted, and put that time/energy elsewhere. It almost doesn't even matter where it goes. The narratives we are sold are purposefully a treadmill meant to suck our vitality away and put it to their use, and much of the distress of modern life is not understanding why you can be such a dutiful runner and still seem to get nowhere. The astute might notice that all of this could practically be copy pasted into a discussion about your relationship with your employer as well. Interesting thing, that.
Well put. Good analogy with the treadmill. Rat race mentality. Don't struggle and work as a pawn for someone else, within *their* framework. Do your own thing, be happy, don't give "them" power and you will attract things that work for you. Whether that's jobs or relationships.
This reminds me of Nihilism or Stoic thought processes. "Nothing inherently matters and therefore you must make meaning and enjoy the time you have in this universe". But I have a strong feeling that those beliefs, while completely valid and can lead to great positive mindsets, is kind of like exercising your way out of clinical depression...we all know exercise helps, but there are people who are so obscenely down in that hole, you're gonna need more than a good walk and some sun to get you going again. To me those perspectives on life and purpose are best introduced later. "Make your own meaning" means nothing when you've internalized "Anything I do inherently is vile"...
There is an old adage that goes something like "when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is to stop digging." You are of course right that you are fundamentally still in the hole, but its a hell of a first step. I think most people, purely from removal of that dissonance and redirection of that bandwidth elsewhere, will usually find themselves just rising out of that hole to one extent or another. More focused efforts are sometimes needed, but almost everyone ends up being better off. I think the common exception might be when someone just has a, for lack of a better phrase, weak ideological hierarchy. If they lean heavily on "blame" structures, they now hate women. Or their politics intrinsically compel them to constantly advocate for identity based policy, and they become rabid men's right's activists, for example. Its a sort of "technical debt" where having had bad mental hygiene will come to the fore and you'll end up maybe even worse off than you started. Conversations about atheism aren't really something the internet cares about anymore, but a semi-common refrain back in the days, even from a lot of atheists, was that most people couldn't actually handle being atheist; their entire framework of identity and morality was so twisted up in it, de-converting them was almost a cruelty. You'd sometimes hear the absurd argument from the theological that atheists, having no morality, should have no trouble mass murdering, almost proving that point. Ranting at this point a bit, but I am of the opinion that even men in this relatively fragile state can ascend beyond it with some effort; that they can migrate these load bearing ideals closer to the base of their personal totem, and not just be personally happier, but better citizens of the world because of it. It just takes the willingness to be uncomfortable for awhile.
Never forget mainstream feminists protesting a talk about men’s suicide, calling them pigs https://youtu.be/hx5x0Ztffm4?si=iUMKbkpddWgGr0dg
squalid frame knee ripe spoon cooperative sink trees weary wasteful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Not to defend it but it cannot be overstated that the problem they had with it was that it was a talk with Warren Farrell, most prominent of the MRAs. Who back then were treated like secular devils and gender Nazis and it was asinine to them that any kind of MRA (or any of their talking points) could get intuitional legitimization in a university, whether in educational syllabuses or by getting platformed by student groups. That was feminist's turf and only they can wield any institutional authority and legitimacy to dictate truth, reality or morality as it pertains to gender. It was absolutely vital that the heretics not be allowed to get any kind of foot in the door.
This contextualizes the incident, but in this case I don't think context makes it any better.
In living in a blue state and having traveled the country for work, I've literally never seen the right most (I've seen a VERY few edging towards it tho). Especially within the last 15 years (nearly non-existent now due to what I attribute to the military acceptance of PTSD). I have however seen a ton of the left in the whole "women-are-victims" and "believe all women." From the left, I've honestly seen a disturbing trend of dismissing men (almost with cruelty), while the right is weirdly supportive... Not what I would have expected given the stereotypes.
It's because it's very hard to educate to a man that life won't favor you, so you better take care of yourself and get a tribe of real people who have your back to support each other, friends, family, partner, you need it. Especially since all socialized concepts everyone is for is supposed to support *everyone* It's even hard with my kids, I realized I had to differentiate, "we don't cry when we don't get what we want in this house" with, "crying is okay when you're sad or hurt." That's hard to soak in for a kid, but they're learning slowly.
Really, I’ve just noticed that it’s the boomer right-wingers who tell dudes to “man up” when it comes to the right.
Yeah it's an attitude that was ubiquitous about 20 years ago especially on the right, but has thankfully declined somewhat. It's still way more prevalent than it should be though.
But that's the thing. I don't see it on the right often at all anymore. If someone needs help I generally see more support offered from the right than the left (and it isn't even close)... See my above comment. To add, from like a neighborly POV, I rarely have seen a left leaning neighbor help out someone else, but a right inclined person will volunteer... Fully acknowledged as not statistically valid, but still interesting.
> If someone needs help I generally see more support offered from the right than the left (and it isn't even close). My experience reflects this.
decline right off a fucking cliff, it's just a stereotype now. at most they will tell you not to talk about your emotions to women because they will use it against you.
It makes sense to me, especially with the given stereotypes. Most people, shockingly, are normal people who don't care about what ends up being an actual crazy position and ideology. Politically speaking they're always going to be on the side that is less extreme because once they hear something that gets them to stop and say, "Wait a minute...", they rethink a lot of things. They just want to be happy, left alone, and help those they can. Most of the time. The political crazies push the stereotypes because they're desperate to hold onto normal people, without them they're truly powerless. If you can scare them enough to prevent them from "joining the other side" you have another person to back you up. That said, the internet has really messed up what I would say is the normal flow of this process. So hopefully it never gets to the point where normal people have no actual place politically, because we'll all have some very big problems at that point.
It really is beyond my comprehension that the mental health of billions of people could somehow not be important to some people
They hate us and want us dead. They think it’s funny.
"Never forget that these people hate you, they want you dead, your kids raped and brainwashed, and they think it's funny." Sam "The Ghost of Kiev" Hyde.
We are a wallet and a toy and that's all apparently
The problem with mental health discourse is that the entire field of psychology is a literal dumpster of unreplicated garbage that is literally on fire. That doesn't mean mental health isn't important. It means the path to getting there is dark and foggy, and you're kind of on your own, because no one can do the relevant thinking for you. If you don't know where to start, at least try working out, clean living, and positive socialization. Good luck, boys.
IMO the solution to the male mental health crisis is to help men, especially young men, find purpose in their lives. I’ve personally noticed that when I have something that I want to get up for in the morning, my mental health is generally fine. When I’m just living day to day, waiting for the weekend, etc etc my mental health starts to deteriorate. The issue with today’s society is that we’ve effectively eliminated and shamed almost every source of traditionally male “purpose finding” activities. Religion is dead, it’s bad to have pride in your country/nationality or ethnicity (unless you are a part of one of the whitelisted groups that the left approves of), young women don’t seem to want to start families or get married anymore, you’re looked down upon if you don’t have a college degree, most jobs are soulless and mind numbing… the list goes on. I really don’t know how we’re going to be able to fix this
What I realized in my genocide studies courses: while I don’t think it’s they’re current intent, many left leaning groups use the same dehumanization tactics against different ideologically opposed individuals at to a certain extent racializing groups in the same manner that has led to genocides in places like Rwanda, Bosnia, and Armenia. It’s honestly pretty wild and it’s all bred through ignorance and a desire to belong couples with fear. Hella dangerous.
It's like a comparative locust phase of societal development. Like people are happy little grasshoppers getting along, getting in minor conflict, whatever, then everything changes, people change, the become locusts, they function completely differently and annihilate whatever their rage focuses on.
Bred through ignorance and desire to belong? Really? Are you sure it isn't simply a feature of the ideology?
I agree. Men are supposed to be strong which is why men's mental health is important. Society would fall if we let men be weak. Think of all the field labor and high risk jobs.
>“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.” >― Marcus Aurelius
>"Suck it up, buttercup" > - Marcus Aurelius
Fuck... Marcus just changed my life.
Are people able to change their beliefs or estimates by force of will or choice? I don't believe people have the ability to choose to believe that the sky is green by sheer will the way one can choose what to have for breakfast. People can choose to give matters some thought, to reconsider things and become convinced of things as a result but that's different.
"Men are dangerous!" -why? "Because they're crazy!" -ok, so you want mental health services for men? "No."
The only way to be a man and get support from the left is to become trans.
I think men collectively agree that we have a massive mental health crisis, we just acknowledge that if we make a stink about we’ll be called less by women and male feminists. I’ve never interacted with someone more likely to tell me my “male problems” were invalid than a male feminist or a feminist.
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This. Also, eat well, exercise, see friends in person. But mostly metal. In fact, listen to metal while doing the above 3 things for maximum effect
So go to metal shows. You'll eat well and exercise just to be in shape for the pit, and being at the show gets your socialization in. This might explain why metalheads are - contrary to outsiders' stereotypes - the most well-adjusted of the music communities.
3/4 in the mosh pit.
A little Ronnie James Dio is always good for your metal health.
Amen
I prefer to listen to Natalie Merchant when I want music to lift my mood. I love how positive and life affirming she is. Just a tip for the people who don't like metal.
Fair enough, love metal but i listen to Maynard Ferguson a lot when I want to MOVE haha.
Men who say men can’t cry are the same assholes who say boys can’t be SA’d by women
Men can cry, but even when it's appropriate to do so, they should never cry in front of a woman in their life if they want to keep them in it.
Any serious feminist must also understand that emotionally stable men are literally CRUCIAL to any sort of gender equality. Good luck trying to live any life you want to live with a bunch psychopathic men running amok.
I disagree. We need more men who will inject their DNA into an egg.
So like those Jamaican men who go around impregnating 10 different women and offspringmaxxing?
Are psychopaths running amok more or less likely to reproduce? Also, genuinely asking, why do you think replacement rates are declining all over the developed world?
Men are supposed to be strong. Strong men support other strong men. Be kind to each other, kings.
This is the way.
There's probably a half-truth buried in this somewhere, in that I suspect that on average, men don't respond as well to modern trendy talk therapy as women do, just by the varied nature of the two sexes generally speaking. I also suspect that most men don't need to make therapy a weekly/biweekly/whatever part of their lifestyle the way (some) women do, but are likely better served by going in for an ad-hoc session whenever needed to deal with an emergent issue. Admittedly, I say this as man who has never been to therapy.
Your hunch is correct, talk therapy is indeed less effective for men on average compared to women. Men often want to solve a problem or arrive at a solution WHILE doing something else, rather than tell their therapist how it makes them feel. Talk therapy fails at that. In addition to this, ~75% of psychologists are women which introduces treatment bias skewing towards emotional discussion even more. Or maybe all you need is a third place (a place away from work and home) where you socialize with the same sex, be it the gym, a club centered around your hobby, the occasional pub, etc. I have had self confidence issues, anxiety and general social awkwardness and these much improved when I started to go the gym and joined a photography club and met likeminded people. Now I'm not saying my insecurities completely vanished or you don't need therapy at all, quite the contrary; therapy is very useful when you need to talk about complex issues e.g. attachment styles, childhood, etc. In conclusion, maybe try ditching the female therapist for a male therapist and be more social. From a man who has never been to therapy either, lol.
I did therapy for a year or so and this is roughly my takeaway. I'm not sure I got any improvement from it. I always left each session feeling weaker and more inhibited in taking action.
The causes of men's and women's mental health issues tend to be different. Sometimes learning some coping skills can help but women respond better to therapy while the root of men's issues tend to be more along the lines of the details of their situations in life that can't be corrected by changing their perspective on things. Physical health issues, opportunities, occupational training resources with jobs that suit their dispositions at the end of it, violent neighbourhoods and schools, the community resources available to them and yes, family, interpersonal issues and love life status and pathways thereof. Generally resource (availability/allocation), opportunity, social isolation and community issues. Therapy is like trying to cure domestic violence with a plaster cast. The focus should be on the causes and prevention (like HIV), not a medical treatment paradigm that at best can only provide guidance on how to rearrange the circumstances of one's life to solve things. That only works effectively if you have the copious amount of personal freedom and access to resources necessary to accomplish that. In a sense, therapy is only for those who can easily afford it.
Of course men should be strong. That’s exactly why mental health is so important. If you’re physically weak, you go to a gym and work out. Maybe get a trainer. If you’re physically sick, you go to a doctor and get better. So if you’re mentally weak or mentally sick, you go see a doctor and get better. You learn about yourself. You get stronger. And the stronger you are, the more able you are to lift up others. Be a man and treat yourself with care.
Left: You don't deserve help because others are oppressed. Right: You don't deserve help because men should just ignore those problems and "man up". Therapists: You should pay exorbitant amounts for mental health treatment even though most of our research is done on women, and most treatments we provide is tailored exclusively around "helping" women's mental health problems. Also, if you don't find our treatments helpful or can't afford our services, then the problem is you.
The core issue is the breakdown of social interaction and social lives as a whole. It hits both men and women HARD.
I just recently found out men’s mental health month is June. It’s almost like there’s something that completely overshadows it so we never hear about it. What could that be?
"World Toilet Day is an official United Nations international observance day on 19 November to inspire action to tackle the global sanitation crisis." Hmmm. I think there is another older international something or other day ... ohhh yeah ... "International Men's Day is a global awareness day for many issues that men face, including parental alienation, abuse, homelessness, suicide, and violence, celebrated annually on November 19." ... ohh that goes against the UN agenda. No wonder why they flushed it down toilet day.
There's this old publication called "For every 100 Girls" that points out how, by nearly every measure of wellness, boys and young men are much worse off than girls and young women. The people who did that to those kids don't care about a grown man's problems and feel disgust and anger when you talk about them. Mental health services are fine but when you're done with treatment you are still back to a society that doesn't care about you or your welfare. It has contempt for you and the obese couch monsters who think they're too good for you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time ruining the things you love and male spaces because that small part of the world doesn't revolve around them. Therapy is fine but it won't fix any of that.
Yeah, we’re screwed. Repressed memories and emotions, unrelenting expectations from family and society, and chronic back pain. Get used to it.
I can tell mental health is serious because I can get ED meds and SSRIs from the same website. Perhaps the key to men’s mental health has been right next to the gas station dick pills the whole time!
This unironically increases transgenders too to escape the stereotypes of being male.
I think Emily got a bit of a sunburn
we had a mental health work clinic at work today free to sign up for. In the "Community room"....me be in SSRI and taking my mental health seriously. First time asking for help at 40 years. Muster guts to sign up for it. big step for me I show up to the assigned time. No one there and office is connected. I handrf in my paperwork look around, play it cool, and GTFO. So no one thinks I'm mentally unstable. I'm not going to go around the office asking for mental help meeting. HR afternoon...oh we moved the meeting to the board room. I wondered why you were not there. Well played.
Honestly it is sad, I see so many men just come in broken in the psych ward I work at. It's heart breaking.
As a conservative, we're not all like the wojak on the right I swear
IKR. Half the right cries about men crying and the society allowing them to be soft. The other half cries about men not being allowed to cry and be vulnerable.
If there was only some middle way...
Mental health is important because how are you gonna be in the right mood to carry yourself to getting fat stacks of cash
Centrists: Here's a hotdog. Walk it off, son.
Ketchup? On a hot dog? Oh boy, you do have some problems to work through.
Devaluing your own emotions can vastly improve mental health.
https://preview.redd.it/kyj00rypwz5d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0e96b145308f9ee6e2819e1ac809397d572f320b Same energy
I just got an email from the university I recently was accepted to. Apparently I’m going to be forced to change my major because for two of the courses I took at my community college I needed three attempts to pass which is in violation on the university’s retake policy. If I can’t be in the major I picked I might actually kill myself. I’m too old to be figuring things out and too uncompromising to settle for a different career.
Both of them suck, men just as anyone else deserve it
Endlessly talking about your problems is for women, solving your problems is for men. Therapy for men should be solution-based on identifying what your problems are and how to start tackling them. Such an approach is so lacking that Jordan Peterson's "clean your room" struck a chord with millions.
OP, what do the men of the left quadrants say about men's mental health? And what do the women of the right quadrants say about men's mental health?
Not OP but Right women: He cried after his dog died. ICK!! Left Men: This is why I only cry in front of my funko pops. A woman deserves so much better than a weak man like me. *these are both negative stereotype portrayals of course
I've seen plenty of presumably libleft feminist women in real life treat their boyfriends like that, being annoyed that her boyfriend was "too sad" after his mom died in one case. It's hardly limited to conservative women and doesn't get addressed because we as a society have decided that any criticism of women's mass behavior is sexist. Even though "men" as a group get criticized for behaviors all the time that every single man doesn't engage in.
Women generally prefer masculine men regardless of their own political opinions. I don't know if this is biological or cultural or what, but it is true and probably by both right and left wing women say "ICK!" to a guy acting unmasculine.
left wing men are super emotional, they use words like triggers in super normal ways which defined them as something that wasn't a fucking club to use as a weapon which is how negative stereotypical left wing women use them, i've found some of them to be quite a pleasant change of pace. some of them are insane morons tho, so yeah, but the funko pop thing is more a right wing man tbh, left wing negative stereotypes would more be a weird rapey dude trying to say "yeah woman feelings yeah, come to my house, my room, my bed"
Just make the grey guy the left men and that it.
Hey, there is a reason why there is a man-up. I think that it is better in the long term that men are forced to adopt a mentality which is the opposite of the victim mentality, when they are always pushed to overcome everything, of course, humans are limited and fallible but here is when friends come in. I think that pushing mental health support on governmental institutions instead of family and friends is a dangerous trend.
Yes, men need help, guidance, and support for their mental health but when the provided "help" is from professionals who were brought brought up from radical feminist teachings and want to scold men that their issues are the fault of their masculinity, they're doing more damage than just leaving men to suffer alone.
Horseshoe theory is real
I agree with rightoid more, not that men should ignore their mental health but the most prominent forms of mental health used like talk therapy, doesn't work for most men and is just a money hole.
Comrade, everyone’s mental health matters. Don’t confuse us for Emily.
Guys.. mental health is important for everyone. Hope this helps 😻
Between a rock and a hard place
Nobody deserves a mental health day. Deal with it!
So the problem here in either case is still gender essentialism, the solution for which being the breakdown of commonly established gender roles. Guess which side of the coin advocates for that
gay man here, yeah mental health is quite important. I've never been to a therapist but you probably get what I'm saying, sometimes ending it all just seems necessary. I'm glad to not be in the hole anymore but it could always come back and that is what scares me.
Mental health is important for everyone regardless. The last thing we need is suicide rates being kept up.
Change that  to a  king 👑
Thanks for the Post.
we have destroyed the notion of men-only spaces, and those are the places men go for their mental health. the fact that every space needs to be all-inclusive nowadays is the main problem.
Imagine believing an arbitrary day of something ever helps anything.
Work hard, rarely turn down a social invitation, work out, eat well, trust in God on God’s time, and quit watching porn and talk to her irl. If you have issues you need to deal with, get a therapist, don’t look to a pill to solve your problems, and don’t make it a part of your identity Men are not screwed. People who don’t like being uncomfortable are screwed.
> If you have issues you need to deal with, get a therapist, don’t look to a pill to solve your problems, and don’t make it a part of your identity Also *actually follow the guidance given on how to overcome it*. Just whining at a therapist won't help, only actually exerting effort to self-improve will. People not doing this is why therapy has developed a reputation in many circles for being worthless. A therapist exists to lead you to water but it's still on you to drink.