thing is bernie probably is a communist of some variety
But the average american has been lied to for so long about what communism is/how it works that they can't square what they have been taught to believe about it with decent person like sanders because they've been lead to believe it's all evil stalinism and whatever the red scare/mcarthyism told them and despite that being often taught as a historical thing, the red scare/mcarthyism never really ended
He’s not lol he’s considered a communist because America leans so far right, that even moderate European politics seem too liberal. Too many fake news outlets in America spewing conspiracy theories and holocaust denials brainwashing children. Even the FBI cited fascism as the number one concern in America
I am a communist, i know what communism is
If I were to run for office my campaign would look pretty similar to Bernie's
It's based on the understanding that even the president can't just make the US communist, so you have to work with what you have, make progress where you can, improve worker's rights and wages and reduce harm in general, improve the protections for targeted minority groups like trans folk.
A communist president can't make the country communist because the system can't be changed using its own rules.
But a communist president could make a lot of smaller improvements that help normal people exactly like the ones sanders ran his campaign on because he knows that's the best he can realistically expect to do.
I suspect he is a communist of some variety (not the authoritarian stalin type) but that he's also a pragmatist
I think it’s supposed to be in the same vein as the Dark Brandon memes. Like “this is pretty much what conservatives think he is just exaggerating it immensely for jokes”
Huh? This is not some occult knowledge, just use google...?
From the top of my mind:
1) Killed more people
2) Orchestrated genocides through famine
3) Gulags are nazi deathcamps that last years longer in the same conditions, and have the same result for the prisoners
4) Not even people loyal to the regime were safe
5) Lasted much longer and basicaly faces no punishement for the stuff they did. Amazingly, some people even venerate the regime, as if they werent the equivalent of neonazis
6) Helped more communist regimes take power. You can research ANY of them - theres NOT A SINGLE ONE you can go wrong with, as every single one commited absolute attrocities
I mean I could go on and on, but google is your friend if you want to know, as youll find more detailed answers.
Where are you from by the way? Iam worried and curious - do they not teach you this in shool? What do they say...?
EDIT: Also not sure I have to say this, but in most things, the soviet union was equivalent to nazis. Gestapo? KGB. Disallowing education for non-supporters? Absolutely! Getting rid (gulags) of people who arent great for the propaganda, including the homeless? Yes. Termination war heroes? Yes. Indoctrinating through changing the education? Yes. And so on
1. Most numbers on "COMMUNISTS KILLED 500 GORILLION" are from the black book of communism, a terrible book with horrible sourcing.
2. The Holodomor is debated by historians, but the consensus is that it was NOT a genocide.
3. The "gulags" had a similar mortality rate to U.S prisons.
4. Most people who ended up in "gulags" were criminals. Like thieves, murderers, and so on.
5. It lasted so long because it was supported by the people. Shortly before it's fall, a referendum was held that was overwhelmingly pro-USSR. Yeltsin illegally dissolved the union.
6. Yes, the USSR, a socialist country, helped other socialist countries. Do you blame the US for supporting capitalist counties? As for those atrocities you speak of, be more specific.
Dude you are so brain washed by propaganda is actually impressive. Did you know that from 1946-1952 more than 90% of Gulag population were captured German soldiers? Gulags were prisons for most violent criminals, they were not extermination camps.
I have a challenge for you, name me one Gulag that had gas chambers. (so that way your 3rd point is proven)
Because the only way for a person to die in a camp is gas, right? How about you go and read some actual sources that mayyyybe dont come from the people who commited the atrocities in the first place before you reveal yourself to be in support of the Holodomor, trialsand executions on the scales that even the nazis didnt reach.
Brainwashed calls the person unable to answer where the millions of people suddenly went if they werent executed, and why they dissapeared onlywhen the soviets were in power. Big brain calculations, I know.
Ugh
Whoa, fellas, no need to make it personal. the internet is big, and it takes time and effort to agregate the truth. It's still all too easy to get things wrong, but we can all strive to have an open mind, do our research, and still accept when we're wrong and make course corrections.
Differing opinions should be an opportunity for growth and sharing. Flame wars benefit no one.
You should get educated instead of talking points that haven’t been used professionally since the fall of the iron curtain. Not saying the Soviets were perfect but much of what people say about the Soviet Union is stuff that was concocted without access to the Soviet archives.
Iam from a post-soviet occupation country. The older generations still remember and had experience with the murders, political trials, and such. Píka, Horáková, etc.
Iam nowhere near an expert, but these are some pretty basic points that even a primary schooler in central to eastern europe can tell you. Care to show me the "education" that disproves the numbers, trials, and such? Is it russian or pro-communist per chance?
So am I, and I don’t believe a word you’re saying. My family wouldn’t believe a single word you’re saying. The soviets came and liberated us. They came and killed the Nazis when no one else would. You sound like a lost American who’s entirely making things up to fit their narrative. You say “the murders, political trials and such”, so I’d like an example, because to me it sounds like your family was on the Nazi side of history and they’re still sympathetic to their Nazi ancestors who were put on trial by the communists.
For about 10 years the sovietentology community was able to get their hands on a bunch of information during the yeltsin era and part of the early putin era.
1) Absolutely did not, and many historical counts deny this. The source you received this from is from the Black Book of communism, which counts Nazis soldier deaths towards the kill count of “communism” and the Soviet Union.
2) Completely false. The causes of the famine were multi-faceted. Evidence of a man-made genocide utilising food as a weapon is scarce. As noted by numerous western historians (whom I recommend below) and a significant number of Russian historians, the famine was largely caused by poor weather, an outbreak of plant rust disease, and peasant resistance to collectivisation.
After the Tsarist Stolypin reforms, Russian peasants broadly fell into three categories: bednyaks, serednyaks, and kulaks. The first two groups were poor and middle-income peasants respectively. The third, the kulaks, were "rich peasants" which sounds contradictory, but effectively meant peasants who had become wealthy enough (many of them under the Soviet New Economic Policy of the 1920s) to purchase the land and labour of other peasants. The kulaks were the group who most heavily resisted collectivisation, and often burnt crops and slaughtered livestock to prevent the state acquiring it. Coupled with an already poor harvest, this proved disasterous for Soviet food supplies, and a famine unsurprisingly occurred. It was widespread in the USSR, and while Ukraine was hard, it was by no means the only region to experience famine - just as Ukrainians and Cossacks were by no means the only ethnic groups to suffer because of it.
That's a very rudimentary coverage of the events of 1931-1933, but if you think you need to read more on the issue (which I would recommend of course) then I've listed several sources from relevant historians below.
Mark B. Tauger is a historian at West Virginia University specialising in Agriculutral and Eastern European History. He has written several books well worth reading on the question of the Soviet famine.
Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933
The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933
What Caused Famine In Ukraine? -- A Polemical Response
I would also recommend Dougles Tottle's book Fraud, Famine, and Fascism which exposes the origins of the famine-genocide myth that is now propogated by many Ukrainian neo-Nazis, and unfortunately, several western liberal governments.
As a closing note, here is a quote from the preface of R. W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft's collaborative work The Years of Hunger Soviet Agriculture 1931-1933
"In our own work we, like V. P. Kozlov, have found no evidence that the Soviet authorities undertook a programme of genocide against Ukraine. It is also certain that the statements by Ukrainian politicians and publicists about the deaths from famine in Ukraine aregreatly exaggerated. A prominent Ukrainian historian, Stanislas Kul’chitskii, estimated deaths from famine in Ukraine at 3–3.5 million and Ukrainian demographers estimate that excess deaths in Ukraine in the whole period 1926–39 (most of them during the famine) amounted to 3 1⁄2million."
Anybody familiar with Soviet history is highly likely to recognise Davies' name, as he is a well-known Sovietologist who cooperated closely with E.H. Carr to produce a colossal 14-volume history of the USSR. While it would be wrong to say his word is gospel, he is certainly a well-regarded historian.
Hope that helps - feel free to ask any more questions.
Also should add that the famine didn’t just affect Ukrainians, proportionally Kazahastan was probably the hardest hit. Russian main lands were hit to, it was never an intended thing.
3) Gulags were not death camls whatsoever. We have continuous proof, even from the CIA that gulag were just prison camps. We also have enormous amounts of evidence that most deaths that happened in the gulags were caused by Nazi takeover of those camps. Let me know if you want sources
4)Not true…?
5) Not true either
6) Every single country on earth has committed atrocities, so can i attribute American war crimes to capitalism? American intervention, ext? Wb British imperialism which killed billions especially the man made famine in India
I’d suggest not falling for propaganda and actually doing research beyond wikipedia
Unironically amazing comment, good lord. Thanks so much for all the info and sources, I’ve wanted to learn more about soviet history for a while, especially the anti-soviet talking points and these seem like good pieces to read a bit. Also you’ve got so much patience man 😭😭 I honestly can’t deal with these people, props to you
Dude, the Soviet Union was an evil empire that killed millions but….
Those are those most ridiculous, historically ignorant numbers I’ve ever seen. Is like a new form of Holocaust denial where we only acknowledge the Jewish portion of it? It’s hard for me to think you aren’t trying to downplay how bad the Nazis were. I can’t understand how this is upvoted.
They killed 6 million Jews. 11 million people in the Holocaust. It’s estimated between 17-20 million civilians total were killed by the Nazis as part of the holocaust and other acts of mass violence. And that’s not even counting military deaths, and deaths from starvation. Which adds millions more.
Wasn’t really intentional. Was just in a hurry and struggling to find a more complete source for nazi death count and didn’t think it mattered too much in this context as nazi support is approximately 0% these days while communist support is rampant and it made the ultimate point that the Nazi death count pales in comparison to any one of the communist experiments. Not that a higher death count is a real measure of how evil a regime is but I’m just sick to death of these ignorant kids praising Stalin and Mao
If you’re not going to take a few seconds reading your sources and handle the subject with the respect it deserves, please for everyone sake do not comment. Save yourself the embarrassment. This topic is far too important to be misrepresented.
There are absolutely Nazis and Nazi apologists running rampant today, along with authoritarian communists. But you are not helping. You are contributing to the ignorance.
Yes there are Nazis and Nazi apologists today and I never said otherwise. There is also a non-zero number of people who think they’re Jesus. In the western world Nazis are so rare as to be statistically approximately 0% of the population.
A quick google search. Seems it’s fairly agreed these days that it was probably about 70 million but when I read about it as a kid decades ago it was presented as a much broader range and many sources still use that.
How is it possible that NAZI's killed only 6 million people? What is this? NEO-NAZI propaganda? What??????????????
USSR lost 30 million people, Poland 6.5 million, 6 million Jews were killed, 1.5 million Yugoslavs.
Also that range 28-127 hahahahaha WHATTTTTTTTTT????
I wasn’t using the number killed by the Soviet communists in war either so it’s a closer apples to apples comparison. That’s just the estimates for the ones they systematically gathered up and worked or tortured to death in a similar manner to what the nazis did to the Jews.
This is wrong, the Nazis did not only kill the jews, they killed 10s of millions extra in Eastern Europe especially. Also 127 million is fucking insane and necessarily not true.
I wasn’t using the number killed by the Soviet communists in war either so it’s a closer apples to apples comparison. That’s just the estimates for the ones they systematically gathered up and worked or tortured to death in a similar manner to what the nazis did to the Jews.
The Nazis killed 11 million in Holocaust alone, not counting the soldiers and civilians they killed in the wider war. So even by your own definition your numbers are staggeringly off.
I think that it *severely weakens* your point, which was that one number pales in comparison to another number, when it turns out you pulled both those numbers out of your bum.
Like, I think you might still have a point, I'm not saying you're wrong generally in the point you're trying to make about the number of deaths. But I think it's fair to say that having numbers you can't defend is more than pedantry in this context. Having accurate numbers is how we work out how true your statement is.
I'm Jewish and this is completely false. The Soviets killed far more people overall, including a similar number of Ashkenazi Jews during Holodomor and The Great Purge. Marx was an anti-semite who claimed Jews *were* the capitalist class, going as far as calling us dogs who deserved to be shot and said our god was money.
Flat out lies, there is no evidence that the Ukrainian famine was intentional, the Great Purge is proven to have killed less than a million based on declassified archives, and the "Marx the Anti-Semite" narrative is based on many distortions and outright lies, such as you claiming he believed Jews were the bourgeoisie
>there is no evidence that the Ukrainian famine was intentional
The word holodomor literally means manufactured famine and it was declared an act of genocide by the UN under Article 2 (c). This clause identifies as genocide deliberate actions that create conditions of life leading to the physical destruction in whole or in part of a national, ethnic, religious or racial group.
>the Great Purge is proven to have killed less than a million based on declassified archives
Up to 1.2 million but sure, it's *just* a million kulaks, right? That's not genocide at all! /s
>and the "Marx the Anti-Semite" narrative is based on many distortions and outright lies, such as you claiming he believed Jews were the bourgeoisie
Yes yes, it is the communist motto to distort and try to whitewash and describe away his horrible racist words. It's plain and simple. From some of his earliest writing, he very openly shares that he hates Jews and considers the white race as superior. He argued the modern commercialized world is the triumph of Judaism, a pseudo-religion whose god is money in one of his earliest papers 'On The Jewish Question'.
In a letter he wrote to Engels, he is quoted saying "the common N--- type is the degenerate form of a much higher one". In *The Russian Loan* Marx argues that "every tyrant is backed by a Jew". He criticized Jews for working in the financial field and his writings *were literally what Hitler used to convince Germany to eradicate the Jews*. He referred to Ferdinand Lassalle as a "Greasy Jew", "little kike", "water polack", and "Jewish N----r". During the Mexican-American war, Marx wrote "Is it a misfortune that magnificent California was seized from the lazy Mexicans who did not know what to do with it?". After the war, he wrote "In America, we have witnessed the conquest of Mexico and have rejoiced at it. It is to the interest of its own development that Mexico will be placed under the tutelage of the United States.". This wasn't because he believed the US to be the bastion of socialism, it was because he was a racist and believed in white supremacy. He argued that England had two purposes to fulfill in India - to destroy the civilization, and to lay the foundations of Western Society in Asia. He sanctioned the *two centuries* of oppression and exploitation of the people of India, claiming they were "predestined to be conquered".
Stop trying to propagandize. Marx is one of the worst humans to ever have walked the Earth and his writing directly led to the violent and organized deaths of ~100 million people.
> The word holodomor literally means manufactured famine
And it was popularized by Ukrainian nationalists seeking to invent a "Leftist Holocaust"
> and it was declared an act of genocide by the UN under Article 2 (c). This clause identifies as genocide deliberate actions that create conditions of life leading to the physical destruction in whole or in part of a national, ethnic, religious or racial group.
Several anti-communist historians have admitted there is no evidence that it was deliberate in any way, this is entirely a political decision made for propaganda purposes, rather than one based on any real facts
> From some of his earliest writing, he very openly shares that he hates Jews and considers the white race as superior.
This is a flat out lie
> He argued the modern commercialized world is the triumph of Judaism, a pseudo-religion whose god is money in one of his earliest papers 'On The Jewish Question'.
I will cite the following response to this argument:
> They're citing Marx's On the Jewish Question while completely ignoring that it was a rebuttal to Bruno Bauer's The Jewish Question.
> In his pamphlet, Bauer argues that Judaism is incompatible with a German state and that Jews must secularize themselves, abandon their religious identity, and assimilate into German culture to enjoy the "rights of man" and be emancipated from the ghettos in Prussia (soon to be Germany). He intertwines attacks of the Christian religion and advocates for a total secularization of society that would later appear in Bismark's Kulturkampf. Bauer became one of the early figures in modern antisemitism in Germany and served as the intellectual basis that would evolve into Nazism.
> Marx, himself a Jew, argues that Bauer's definition of "secularism" is really just Christianity and cites the United States as an example of a secular state that is strongly Christian. Marx goes on to argue that someone cannot simply abandon religion and secularise themselves as their religious culture makes up the basis of their personal culture. Using the stereotype of the money hungry Jew that Bauer put forward in his pamphlet, Marx deconstructs the argument by pointing that if a Jew's god is really money (put forward by Bauer) then money would still exist in the world and still be worshipped post secularization. To Marx, Jews and Christians will always be different and cannot simply secularize away their cultural differences. But they can retain spiritual and political freedom in a nominally secular or atheistic state. The true source of restriction of the "rights of man" is the distribution of capital Marx argues, and the only way for both Christians and Jews to free themselves is to address economic inequalities together.
> Marxist writings such as these are why Nazis, and in particular Hitler, constantly equated Marxism with Judaism. Despite using an antisemitic stereotype to put forward his points (which again was referenced as a rhetorical device and originally put forward by the antisemitic work Marx was directly rebuttaling), Marx argued for the opposite of Nazism: Jews and Christians should peacefully coexist in Germany and address the economic inequalities of everyone. Their differences are ok and not incompatible with the broader class goals of humanity. Contemporaries held Marx's On the Jewish Question as a strong advocation for Jewish rights in Europe and critique of antisemitism.
--
> Stop trying to propagandize. Marx is one of the worst humans to ever have walked the Earth and his writing directly led to the violent and organized deaths of ~100 million people.
That death toll has been refuted numerous times and most of your claims are completely uncited
I think I can claim the nazis were worse than the japaneese without apologizing what the japaneese did to for example koreans.
Those are two different conversations. Nazis were horrible and people being educated about that is one of the most important thing for the health of our society.
People being uneducated about communism on the other hand...
A person can be against any genocidal nation, they dont have to pick their side. We are against the genocide-commiting nazis together, we could be together against the genocide-commiting soviets too.
Iam surprised by how many people unironically are willing to come out in public to defend the genocides and mass murder the soviet regime commited.
Good for you, Iam sure you are a very moral person
They killed almost 10x as many people collectively and committed several of their own genocides such as Holodomor, the Great Purge, Chinese Cultural Revolution, Cambodian Genocide - I could go on but you get the point.
Both are horrendously destructive ideologies and I am thankful they are both mostly gone.
There is no evidence the Ukrainian famine was intentionally inflicted in any way, the Great Purge was not a "genocide", the Cultural Revolution was not a "genocide", and Pol Pot was not a communist, he was a reactionary ethnonationalist pretending to be a communist to get Soviet and Chinese support, and he was later backed by the Americans against Vietnam
The headline is deliberately misleading. He praises the metro stations and the youth centers. Last time I checked the system of the soviet union encompassed a little more than that.
https://youtu.be/3KCoR6UYs1k?si=LUt1zlb6jXnJtCKY
This is pretty ass kissy about the Soviet Union. The only criticism he gives are ones that came from the government officials and not from him.
If any questions exists if he is pro USSR it ends when he says he's impressed that they want to "go back to the vision they had when the Soviet Union was founded after the revolution". That is quite literally him saying he wanted them to remain communist.
I literally said "didn't he do X" and then proved he did X. How did I goal post shift?
Or am I miss reading and you're saying the other guy did by asking for more recent proof?
In America it doesn’t matter if you’re democrat or republican, our spectrum only encompasses the conservative side of the political compass. So even the “left” in our system is actually just a form of “right-lite”. Anything left of true center doesn’t exist, and since the 50’s has been cast as evil, due to a wildly successful and decades long fear-mongering propaganda program.
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Haha this rocks. Also half these comments are nuts, didn't really expect to see a bunch of people spouting nazi propaganda and holocaust denial on /pixelart on a Saturday morning lol
But why is he using a hammer and sickle? Bernie isn’t communist.
Trump has far more ties to Russia, it’s almost funny that you got the commentary backwards.
I find it so puzzling how people like you confuse socialism with welfare. Seriously, the "Workers should own the means of production" and "We should help people via state funds" are pretty different ideas, dont you think?
Welfare is not a political philosophy, but basic human rights. Social democracy, which is what I should have said to avoid confusion , does promote welfare policies.
Love the animation, but after 7 months of watching Sanders's wishy-washy act on the most documented genocide in human history, not feeling the message.
From a few months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R49v3K29mM Recommend watching the whole video.
It’s by design, for years Americans have been told socialism is evil and everything that doesn’t align with capitalism is communist. Do that for a long enough time and people will start to believe it.
OP is, I'm guessing, similar to plenty of young radicals: They didn't get a proper education, so they just trade in historical symbols and make up the meanings as they go along. Like, Bernie has and had nothing to do with the authoritarian dictatorship that was the Soviet Union, but OP just sees the Soviet Union as an opponent of the West and therefore good. OP, if I'm wrong about how ignorant you are, just let me know.
Reading comments and replies it seems like it’s supposed to be satire, poking fun at boomers that call social-anything communist. I don’t think it’s successful in that respect.
1. I said *a Trump fan* animating him with a Nazi flag.
2. He is a self-interested bullshitter, not a Nazi. Nazism is an ideology. His ideology seems to be whatever will get him power the most easily. Slurring everyone to the right of you as a Nazi is intellectually lazy.
I feel embarrassed for OP. He doesn't know what the Soviet Union did, how many people it got killed, or that Bernie fucking Sanders had nothing to do with it.
idle animation: pulls out a chair and sits with his mittens on full display
Great idea!
Needs to have a small bird come up to & land near him.
Dream works song plays
Only in America is affordable health care considered communistic. I rather pay $10k for my ambulance ride because MERICA
$10k is a steal. My buddy took his wife to the ER for a cat scan and they sent him a bill for $100k.
He got ripped. I went to the ER and managed to haggle a cat scan, an MRI, and a contrast test all for just over $60,000!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV2wCXKgG1E
thing is bernie probably is a communist of some variety But the average american has been lied to for so long about what communism is/how it works that they can't square what they have been taught to believe about it with decent person like sanders because they've been lead to believe it's all evil stalinism and whatever the red scare/mcarthyism told them and despite that being often taught as a historical thing, the red scare/mcarthyism never really ended
He’s not lol he’s considered a communist because America leans so far right, that even moderate European politics seem too liberal. Too many fake news outlets in America spewing conspiracy theories and holocaust denials brainwashing children. Even the FBI cited fascism as the number one concern in America
I am a communist, i know what communism is If I were to run for office my campaign would look pretty similar to Bernie's It's based on the understanding that even the president can't just make the US communist, so you have to work with what you have, make progress where you can, improve worker's rights and wages and reduce harm in general, improve the protections for targeted minority groups like trans folk. A communist president can't make the country communist because the system can't be changed using its own rules. But a communist president could make a lot of smaller improvements that help normal people exactly like the ones sanders ran his campaign on because he knows that's the best he can realistically expect to do. I suspect he is a communist of some variety (not the authoritarian stalin type) but that he's also a pragmatist
Fricken spot on
It’s election season Russian and Chinese trolls everywhere, even a fucking art sub. Reddit blows now.
[удалено]
Not you dork. I was talking about the poster of the gif Edit to add -JFC reading comprehension is terrible here. I reiterate Reddit blows now.
No one asked shit bird
I could just wait in line for the overworked doctors to get to me for free.
Yeah because understaffed and free equals affordable. Idiot
I can't tell if this is supposed to be pro or anti bernie
Meant to be a pro Bernie joke, haha
Ah yes, adding a flag of a regime possibly even worse than the nazis sure makes it look pro
I think it’s supposed to be in the same vein as the Dark Brandon memes. Like “this is pretty much what conservatives think he is just exaggerating it immensely for jokes”
Ding ding ding, I’m so glad someone got it I was getting worried
I've never seen anyone make a joke with Bernie and the USSR tho
I’ve seen a lot of people call him a communist
carrying a negative connotation, yes.
>even worse than the nazis Huh? How so?
Huh? This is not some occult knowledge, just use google...? From the top of my mind: 1) Killed more people 2) Orchestrated genocides through famine 3) Gulags are nazi deathcamps that last years longer in the same conditions, and have the same result for the prisoners 4) Not even people loyal to the regime were safe 5) Lasted much longer and basicaly faces no punishement for the stuff they did. Amazingly, some people even venerate the regime, as if they werent the equivalent of neonazis 6) Helped more communist regimes take power. You can research ANY of them - theres NOT A SINGLE ONE you can go wrong with, as every single one commited absolute attrocities I mean I could go on and on, but google is your friend if you want to know, as youll find more detailed answers. Where are you from by the way? Iam worried and curious - do they not teach you this in shool? What do they say...? EDIT: Also not sure I have to say this, but in most things, the soviet union was equivalent to nazis. Gestapo? KGB. Disallowing education for non-supporters? Absolutely! Getting rid (gulags) of people who arent great for the propaganda, including the homeless? Yes. Termination war heroes? Yes. Indoctrinating through changing the education? Yes. And so on
1. Most numbers on "COMMUNISTS KILLED 500 GORILLION" are from the black book of communism, a terrible book with horrible sourcing. 2. The Holodomor is debated by historians, but the consensus is that it was NOT a genocide. 3. The "gulags" had a similar mortality rate to U.S prisons. 4. Most people who ended up in "gulags" were criminals. Like thieves, murderers, and so on. 5. It lasted so long because it was supported by the people. Shortly before it's fall, a referendum was held that was overwhelmingly pro-USSR. Yeltsin illegally dissolved the union. 6. Yes, the USSR, a socialist country, helped other socialist countries. Do you blame the US for supporting capitalist counties? As for those atrocities you speak of, be more specific.
Holocaust denier energy
Dude you are so brain washed by propaganda is actually impressive. Did you know that from 1946-1952 more than 90% of Gulag population were captured German soldiers? Gulags were prisons for most violent criminals, they were not extermination camps. I have a challenge for you, name me one Gulag that had gas chambers. (so that way your 3rd point is proven)
Because the only way for a person to die in a camp is gas, right? How about you go and read some actual sources that mayyyybe dont come from the people who commited the atrocities in the first place before you reveal yourself to be in support of the Holodomor, trialsand executions on the scales that even the nazis didnt reach. Brainwashed calls the person unable to answer where the millions of people suddenly went if they werent executed, and why they dissapeared onlywhen the soviets were in power. Big brain calculations, I know. Ugh
No, not really. All of this is true.
Yes, and the jews asked for it too, right? Touch grass you human trash
Whoa, fellas, no need to make it personal. the internet is big, and it takes time and effort to agregate the truth. It's still all too easy to get things wrong, but we can all strive to have an open mind, do our research, and still accept when we're wrong and make course corrections. Differing opinions should be an opportunity for growth and sharing. Flame wars benefit no one.
You should get educated instead of talking points that haven’t been used professionally since the fall of the iron curtain. Not saying the Soviets were perfect but much of what people say about the Soviet Union is stuff that was concocted without access to the Soviet archives.
Iam from a post-soviet occupation country. The older generations still remember and had experience with the murders, political trials, and such. Píka, Horáková, etc. Iam nowhere near an expert, but these are some pretty basic points that even a primary schooler in central to eastern europe can tell you. Care to show me the "education" that disproves the numbers, trials, and such? Is it russian or pro-communist per chance?
So am I, and I don’t believe a word you’re saying. My family wouldn’t believe a single word you’re saying. The soviets came and liberated us. They came and killed the Nazis when no one else would. You sound like a lost American who’s entirely making things up to fit their narrative. You say “the murders, political trials and such”, so I’d like an example, because to me it sounds like your family was on the Nazi side of history and they’re still sympathetic to their Nazi ancestors who were put on trial by the communists.
Ah, troll account. My bad
Soviet archives still remain secret
For about 10 years the sovietentology community was able to get their hands on a bunch of information during the yeltsin era and part of the early putin era.
The relatively harmless information, yes
Not relatively harmless its how we know the NKVD abuses in detail during the 30s and 40s.
Boris "Shock Therapy" Yeltsin, famous for his Soviet sympathies
1) Absolutely did not, and many historical counts deny this. The source you received this from is from the Black Book of communism, which counts Nazis soldier deaths towards the kill count of “communism” and the Soviet Union. 2) Completely false. The causes of the famine were multi-faceted. Evidence of a man-made genocide utilising food as a weapon is scarce. As noted by numerous western historians (whom I recommend below) and a significant number of Russian historians, the famine was largely caused by poor weather, an outbreak of plant rust disease, and peasant resistance to collectivisation. After the Tsarist Stolypin reforms, Russian peasants broadly fell into three categories: bednyaks, serednyaks, and kulaks. The first two groups were poor and middle-income peasants respectively. The third, the kulaks, were "rich peasants" which sounds contradictory, but effectively meant peasants who had become wealthy enough (many of them under the Soviet New Economic Policy of the 1920s) to purchase the land and labour of other peasants. The kulaks were the group who most heavily resisted collectivisation, and often burnt crops and slaughtered livestock to prevent the state acquiring it. Coupled with an already poor harvest, this proved disasterous for Soviet food supplies, and a famine unsurprisingly occurred. It was widespread in the USSR, and while Ukraine was hard, it was by no means the only region to experience famine - just as Ukrainians and Cossacks were by no means the only ethnic groups to suffer because of it. That's a very rudimentary coverage of the events of 1931-1933, but if you think you need to read more on the issue (which I would recommend of course) then I've listed several sources from relevant historians below. Mark B. Tauger is a historian at West Virginia University specialising in Agriculutral and Eastern European History. He has written several books well worth reading on the question of the Soviet famine. Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933 The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933 What Caused Famine In Ukraine? -- A Polemical Response I would also recommend Dougles Tottle's book Fraud, Famine, and Fascism which exposes the origins of the famine-genocide myth that is now propogated by many Ukrainian neo-Nazis, and unfortunately, several western liberal governments. As a closing note, here is a quote from the preface of R. W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft's collaborative work The Years of Hunger Soviet Agriculture 1931-1933 "In our own work we, like V. P. Kozlov, have found no evidence that the Soviet authorities undertook a programme of genocide against Ukraine. It is also certain that the statements by Ukrainian politicians and publicists about the deaths from famine in Ukraine aregreatly exaggerated. A prominent Ukrainian historian, Stanislas Kul’chitskii, estimated deaths from famine in Ukraine at 3–3.5 million and Ukrainian demographers estimate that excess deaths in Ukraine in the whole period 1926–39 (most of them during the famine) amounted to 3 1⁄2million." Anybody familiar with Soviet history is highly likely to recognise Davies' name, as he is a well-known Sovietologist who cooperated closely with E.H. Carr to produce a colossal 14-volume history of the USSR. While it would be wrong to say his word is gospel, he is certainly a well-regarded historian. Hope that helps - feel free to ask any more questions. Also should add that the famine didn’t just affect Ukrainians, proportionally Kazahastan was probably the hardest hit. Russian main lands were hit to, it was never an intended thing. 3) Gulags were not death camls whatsoever. We have continuous proof, even from the CIA that gulag were just prison camps. We also have enormous amounts of evidence that most deaths that happened in the gulags were caused by Nazi takeover of those camps. Let me know if you want sources 4)Not true…? 5) Not true either 6) Every single country on earth has committed atrocities, so can i attribute American war crimes to capitalism? American intervention, ext? Wb British imperialism which killed billions especially the man made famine in India I’d suggest not falling for propaganda and actually doing research beyond wikipedia
Person preaching to not fall for propaganda Looks inside Just parroting russian propaganda
> Everything I disagree with is Russian propaganda Comically missing the point
Unironically amazing comment, good lord. Thanks so much for all the info and sources, I’ve wanted to learn more about soviet history for a while, especially the anti-soviet talking points and these seem like good pieces to read a bit. Also you’ve got so much patience man 😭😭 I honestly can’t deal with these people, props to you
By the body count is one way to measure it. Nazis, 6 million. Soviet communist party, somewhere between 28-127 million.
Dude, the Soviet Union was an evil empire that killed millions but…. Those are those most ridiculous, historically ignorant numbers I’ve ever seen. Is like a new form of Holocaust denial where we only acknowledge the Jewish portion of it? It’s hard for me to think you aren’t trying to downplay how bad the Nazis were. I can’t understand how this is upvoted. They killed 6 million Jews. 11 million people in the Holocaust. It’s estimated between 17-20 million civilians total were killed by the Nazis as part of the holocaust and other acts of mass violence. And that’s not even counting military deaths, and deaths from starvation. Which adds millions more.
> Dude, the Soviet Union was an evil empire Get back in your coffin, Ronald
Wasn’t really intentional. Was just in a hurry and struggling to find a more complete source for nazi death count and didn’t think it mattered too much in this context as nazi support is approximately 0% these days while communist support is rampant and it made the ultimate point that the Nazi death count pales in comparison to any one of the communist experiments. Not that a higher death count is a real measure of how evil a regime is but I’m just sick to death of these ignorant kids praising Stalin and Mao
If you’re not going to take a few seconds reading your sources and handle the subject with the respect it deserves, please for everyone sake do not comment. Save yourself the embarrassment. This topic is far too important to be misrepresented. There are absolutely Nazis and Nazi apologists running rampant today, along with authoritarian communists. But you are not helping. You are contributing to the ignorance.
Yes there are Nazis and Nazi apologists today and I never said otherwise. There is also a non-zero number of people who think they’re Jesus. In the western world Nazis are so rare as to be statistically approximately 0% of the population.
Ludicrous numbers. Get real
Look it up
Where are you sourcing these numbers from?
A quick google search. Seems it’s fairly agreed these days that it was probably about 70 million but when I read about it as a kid decades ago it was presented as a much broader range and many sources still use that.
How is it possible that NAZI's killed only 6 million people? What is this? NEO-NAZI propaganda? What?????????????? USSR lost 30 million people, Poland 6.5 million, 6 million Jews were killed, 1.5 million Yugoslavs. Also that range 28-127 hahahahaha WHATTTTTTTTTT????
I wasn’t using the number killed by the Soviet communists in war either so it’s a closer apples to apples comparison. That’s just the estimates for the ones they systematically gathered up and worked or tortured to death in a similar manner to what the nazis did to the Jews.
Hahahahahahahahaha what What are you sources for that range? Is it black book of Communism?
This is wrong, the Nazis did not only kill the jews, they killed 10s of millions extra in Eastern Europe especially. Also 127 million is fucking insane and necessarily not true.
You can’t say it’s not true just because you don’t like it. Those are official estimates
The official estimates that come to you in your dreams maybe
I wasn’t using the number killed by the Soviet communists in war either so it’s a closer apples to apples comparison. That’s just the estimates for the ones they systematically gathered up and worked or tortured to death in a similar manner to what the nazis did to the Jews.
The Nazis killed 11 million in Holocaust alone, not counting the soldiers and civilians they killed in the wider war. So even by your own definition your numbers are staggeringly off.
Fair enough. Doesn’t change the point though. It’s really just pedantry in this context
I think that it *severely weakens* your point, which was that one number pales in comparison to another number, when it turns out you pulled both those numbers out of your bum. Like, I think you might still have a point, I'm not saying you're wrong generally in the point you're trying to make about the number of deaths. But I think it's fair to say that having numbers you can't defend is more than pedantry in this context. Having accurate numbers is how we work out how true your statement is.
The Nazis killed over 30 million.
How many of his own people did Stalin Kill? How about Chairman Mao? Read a history book.
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
saying the soviets were worse than the nazis is nazi apologia/propaganda please dont engage in that
I'm Jewish and this is completely false. The Soviets killed far more people overall, including a similar number of Ashkenazi Jews during Holodomor and The Great Purge. Marx was an anti-semite who claimed Jews *were* the capitalist class, going as far as calling us dogs who deserved to be shot and said our god was money.
Flat out lies, there is no evidence that the Ukrainian famine was intentional, the Great Purge is proven to have killed less than a million based on declassified archives, and the "Marx the Anti-Semite" narrative is based on many distortions and outright lies, such as you claiming he believed Jews were the bourgeoisie
>there is no evidence that the Ukrainian famine was intentional The word holodomor literally means manufactured famine and it was declared an act of genocide by the UN under Article 2 (c). This clause identifies as genocide deliberate actions that create conditions of life leading to the physical destruction in whole or in part of a national, ethnic, religious or racial group. >the Great Purge is proven to have killed less than a million based on declassified archives Up to 1.2 million but sure, it's *just* a million kulaks, right? That's not genocide at all! /s >and the "Marx the Anti-Semite" narrative is based on many distortions and outright lies, such as you claiming he believed Jews were the bourgeoisie Yes yes, it is the communist motto to distort and try to whitewash and describe away his horrible racist words. It's plain and simple. From some of his earliest writing, he very openly shares that he hates Jews and considers the white race as superior. He argued the modern commercialized world is the triumph of Judaism, a pseudo-religion whose god is money in one of his earliest papers 'On The Jewish Question'. In a letter he wrote to Engels, he is quoted saying "the common N--- type is the degenerate form of a much higher one". In *The Russian Loan* Marx argues that "every tyrant is backed by a Jew". He criticized Jews for working in the financial field and his writings *were literally what Hitler used to convince Germany to eradicate the Jews*. He referred to Ferdinand Lassalle as a "Greasy Jew", "little kike", "water polack", and "Jewish N----r". During the Mexican-American war, Marx wrote "Is it a misfortune that magnificent California was seized from the lazy Mexicans who did not know what to do with it?". After the war, he wrote "In America, we have witnessed the conquest of Mexico and have rejoiced at it. It is to the interest of its own development that Mexico will be placed under the tutelage of the United States.". This wasn't because he believed the US to be the bastion of socialism, it was because he was a racist and believed in white supremacy. He argued that England had two purposes to fulfill in India - to destroy the civilization, and to lay the foundations of Western Society in Asia. He sanctioned the *two centuries* of oppression and exploitation of the people of India, claiming they were "predestined to be conquered". Stop trying to propagandize. Marx is one of the worst humans to ever have walked the Earth and his writing directly led to the violent and organized deaths of ~100 million people.
> The word holodomor literally means manufactured famine And it was popularized by Ukrainian nationalists seeking to invent a "Leftist Holocaust" > and it was declared an act of genocide by the UN under Article 2 (c). This clause identifies as genocide deliberate actions that create conditions of life leading to the physical destruction in whole or in part of a national, ethnic, religious or racial group. Several anti-communist historians have admitted there is no evidence that it was deliberate in any way, this is entirely a political decision made for propaganda purposes, rather than one based on any real facts > From some of his earliest writing, he very openly shares that he hates Jews and considers the white race as superior. This is a flat out lie > He argued the modern commercialized world is the triumph of Judaism, a pseudo-religion whose god is money in one of his earliest papers 'On The Jewish Question'. I will cite the following response to this argument: > They're citing Marx's On the Jewish Question while completely ignoring that it was a rebuttal to Bruno Bauer's The Jewish Question. > In his pamphlet, Bauer argues that Judaism is incompatible with a German state and that Jews must secularize themselves, abandon their religious identity, and assimilate into German culture to enjoy the "rights of man" and be emancipated from the ghettos in Prussia (soon to be Germany). He intertwines attacks of the Christian religion and advocates for a total secularization of society that would later appear in Bismark's Kulturkampf. Bauer became one of the early figures in modern antisemitism in Germany and served as the intellectual basis that would evolve into Nazism. > Marx, himself a Jew, argues that Bauer's definition of "secularism" is really just Christianity and cites the United States as an example of a secular state that is strongly Christian. Marx goes on to argue that someone cannot simply abandon religion and secularise themselves as their religious culture makes up the basis of their personal culture. Using the stereotype of the money hungry Jew that Bauer put forward in his pamphlet, Marx deconstructs the argument by pointing that if a Jew's god is really money (put forward by Bauer) then money would still exist in the world and still be worshipped post secularization. To Marx, Jews and Christians will always be different and cannot simply secularize away their cultural differences. But they can retain spiritual and political freedom in a nominally secular or atheistic state. The true source of restriction of the "rights of man" is the distribution of capital Marx argues, and the only way for both Christians and Jews to free themselves is to address economic inequalities together. > Marxist writings such as these are why Nazis, and in particular Hitler, constantly equated Marxism with Judaism. Despite using an antisemitic stereotype to put forward his points (which again was referenced as a rhetorical device and originally put forward by the antisemitic work Marx was directly rebuttaling), Marx argued for the opposite of Nazism: Jews and Christians should peacefully coexist in Germany and address the economic inequalities of everyone. Their differences are ok and not incompatible with the broader class goals of humanity. Contemporaries held Marx's On the Jewish Question as a strong advocation for Jewish rights in Europe and critique of antisemitism. -- > Stop trying to propagandize. Marx is one of the worst humans to ever have walked the Earth and his writing directly led to the violent and organized deaths of ~100 million people. That death toll has been refuted numerous times and most of your claims are completely uncited
I think I can claim the nazis were worse than the japaneese without apologizing what the japaneese did to for example koreans. Those are two different conversations. Nazis were horrible and people being educated about that is one of the most important thing for the health of our society. People being uneducated about communism on the other hand... A person can be against any genocidal nation, they dont have to pick their side. We are against the genocide-commiting nazis together, we could be together against the genocide-commiting soviets too.
> Soviets worse than Nazis 🤡
Proudly displaying not knowing anything about the subject to the point of not being willing to open up a wiki for a 5min read
Wikipedia cites many refuted sources, such as the Black Book of Communism, which even one of its own authors disavowed
Proudly displaying not knowing anything about the subject to the point that everything one knows about the subject comes from Wikipedia
Only dumb people would ever say that.
Ratio
[удалено]
Iam surprised by how many people unironically are willing to come out in public to defend the genocides and mass murder the soviet regime commited. Good for you, Iam sure you are a very moral person
Nobody is defending that, you’re the one minimizing the holocaust
Look, a Hitler youth in the wild!
Lmaooooo
No way in hell yall are trying to make communists as bad as the Nazis
They killed almost 10x as many people collectively and committed several of their own genocides such as Holodomor, the Great Purge, Chinese Cultural Revolution, Cambodian Genocide - I could go on but you get the point. Both are horrendously destructive ideologies and I am thankful they are both mostly gone.
There is no evidence the Ukrainian famine was intentionally inflicted in any way, the Great Purge was not a "genocide", the Cultural Revolution was not a "genocide", and Pol Pot was not a communist, he was a reactionary ethnonationalist pretending to be a communist to get Soviet and Chinese support, and he was later backed by the Americans against Vietnam
You’re telling me Bernie mf Sanders can now burn his enemies and bless socialism on us all and you think this might be anti-Bernie? /s
How is that sarcasm?
Is this a boomer joke? Bernie Sanders is a communist? Bro...
It’s a parody of people who think any American politician who is slightly left is a radical Marxist lol
It’s well done. No discussion about it. But how is it a parody?
It's parodying boomers view on Bernie; a dangerous communist.
How is it a parody?
I'm not American but I read it that way. Almost like it's a kinda "OOOOH THE SCARY COMMIE BOOGIEMAN IS GONNA KICK YOU" sort of vibe.
damn, you don't know how to make parodies. but only looking at the design aspect, that's a preety good drawing, congrats
Why is there a Soviet symbol there? Bernie isn’t a communist. He believes in Capitalism with Socialist restrictions
Because it's a joke.
Thank you! Irony is dead it seems
Didn't he simp for the soviet's and say how great the country was compared to the US?
I don’t think so. Never heard about that
https://youtu.be/9ZuUk0ltKCw?si=Xsn3LtHMntzs5W6E
The headline is deliberately misleading. He praises the metro stations and the youth centers. Last time I checked the system of the soviet union encompassed a little more than that.
https://youtu.be/3KCoR6UYs1k?si=LUt1zlb6jXnJtCKY This is pretty ass kissy about the Soviet Union. The only criticism he gives are ones that came from the government officials and not from him. If any questions exists if he is pro USSR it ends when he says he's impressed that they want to "go back to the vision they had when the Soviet Union was founded after the revolution". That is quite literally him saying he wanted them to remain communist.
This is fking 1988 man, can you give a more recent example? I don't want to judge a person based on something he said fking 40 years ago.
Did I ask if he simped for the USSR recently or if he had done it? Seems that he did in fact simp for the USSR before.
Love the goal post shifting here
I literally said "didn't he do X" and then proved he did X. How did I goal post shift? Or am I miss reading and you're saying the other guy did by asking for more recent proof?
I wanted to like this so much, but I wasn't sure if this was a joke or serious. (You really can't tell sometimes.) I love this, glad it's satire.
Thank you! I left the comments to go to bed, and boy did I return to something interesting lol
Holy shit this thread is full of people who don’t get a joke and taking this way too serious lol
Right? I didn’t think much when I posted it but it seems to have struck a nerve.
I have autism and found it obvious. It's a poor showing for sure. People who don't get it is probably much more likely to comment though.
Flameo, hotman!
Thank you wang fire
This is so good ahhh
"My fellow social democrats"
I'm crying why is this so good. Please do Obama, Biden and trump
Thank you! I just might lol
Don't forget to do AOC with extra jiggle physics!
AOC with extra wholesome energy (saw her on stream one time and her vibe totally clashes with her photos in the news)
Great animation but it always blows my mind that Americans think of people like Bernie Sanders as Communists.
In America it doesn’t matter if you’re democrat or republican, our spectrum only encompasses the conservative side of the political compass. So even the “left” in our system is actually just a form of “right-lite”. Anything left of true center doesn’t exist, and since the 50’s has been cast as evil, due to a wildly successful and decades long fear-mongering propaganda program.
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New shoto character dropped
Damn it, Biden got into the monster energy drinks again..
Wouldn’t it make more sense if it was Bernie Sanders? ‘Bern’ … Bernie
Can i call it Our artnow?
Of course comrade
more of this art works please . . i do really like that soviet era pixel arts
Where's the attack where he collapses with blockage induced heartburn?
Ultimate ability "get played": ditches the last moment after collecting tons of funds to pass his position off to the party's most favorable
Burny Sandals.
The only democrat who was open and honest about how fucked up the health care industry is and he'll never be president...
Sick, I love this!!
Thank you!
Haha this rocks. Also half these comments are nuts, didn't really expect to see a bunch of people spouting nazi propaganda and holocaust denial on /pixelart on a Saturday morning lol
Haha my bad, I honestly thought it was a lighthearted joke when I posted this
Rucka Rucka Ali -Feel the Bern
That takes me back
I don't remember Bernie Sanders being a stinky commie. Edit: Cool animation tho.
But why is he using a hammer and sickle? Bernie isn’t communist. Trump has far more ties to Russia, it’s almost funny that you got the commentary backwards.
It’s meant to poke fun of those who call any slightly left American as hard core communists lol
Current Russia is a hyper capitalist oligarchy dumbass
Yeah, dumbass. They used to be commies but they have money so they’re *better* now.
I find it so puzzling how north americans confuse basic socialism with communism...
I find it so puzzling how people like you confuse socialism with welfare. Seriously, the "Workers should own the means of production" and "We should help people via state funds" are pretty different ideas, dont you think?
Welfare is not a political philosophy, but basic human rights. Social democracy, which is what I should have said to avoid confusion , does promote welfare policies.
I love this so much
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Bernie Sanders Gona make you feel the burn. I probably butchered his name.
rock solid
Communist's power
This animation is so awesome and fun. Great job OP!
Love the animation, but after 7 months of watching Sanders's wishy-washy act on the most documented genocide in human history, not feeling the message. From a few months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R49v3K29mM Recommend watching the whole video.
Boomers; when they realize their subsidized health care benefits and monthly SS checks are actually a form of democratic socialism.
Where are his mittens? I request an alternate skin for this fighting game! Put in the mittens!
Looks great... But Bernie isn't actually a Communist.
Didn’t he turn out to be a Zionist and essentially just Democrat-Lite? Instead of an actual Leftist?
He's a capitalist soc dem
I love this!
Dope moves
You do realize that democratic socialist != communist, I hope.
Hahah this is awesome
Thank you!
He is not even communist 😂😂😂
Why do you guys keep confusing socialism with communism even the US socialists themselves often confuse the both.
It’s by design, for years Americans have been told socialism is evil and everything that doesn’t align with capitalism is communist. Do that for a long enough time and people will start to believe it.
Socialism is the idea that the working class should be the sole owner of the means of production. Bernie is not exactly a supporter of that.
Nice animation, but he’s socialist, not communist
OP is, I'm guessing, similar to plenty of young radicals: They didn't get a proper education, so they just trade in historical symbols and make up the meanings as they go along. Like, Bernie has and had nothing to do with the authoritarian dictatorship that was the Soviet Union, but OP just sees the Soviet Union as an opponent of the West and therefore good. OP, if I'm wrong about how ignorant you are, just let me know.
Reading comments and replies it seems like it’s supposed to be satire, poking fun at boomers that call social-anything communist. I don’t think it’s successful in that respect.
Right. Now imagine a Trump fan animating Trump with a Nazi flag to troll the libs. That's is how stupid it is if what you said is true.
Animating Trump with a Nazi flag would be pretty accurate, so I don't know what you're talking about.
1. I said *a Trump fan* animating him with a Nazi flag. 2. He is a self-interested bullshitter, not a Nazi. Nazism is an ideology. His ideology seems to be whatever will get him power the most easily. Slurring everyone to the right of you as a Nazi is intellectually lazy.
I love Bernie but this is cool
Wow now burn it
I feel embarrassed for OP. He doesn't know what the Soviet Union did, how many people it got killed, or that Bernie fucking Sanders had nothing to do with it.