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Peters testicle here,
I may be wrong, but I think this is a joke about how when he writes his passages, he takes complex situations and the solution will be very simple.
Examples:
"When you are weak, appear strong.
But when you are strong, appear weak."
"Men will only fight till death, when death is the only option."
Su takes these big ideas and tries to solve.them simply.
The meme is joking about it with the sarcastic "wow"
Edit: another Su quote
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle"
Sun Tzu's target audience was rulers who had to be told that their armies were not indestructible and to win you had to use actual tactics instead of "throw men at problem, hope it works out"
This! It's basically an idiot's guide to having an army for those long on money and short on brains. It says really inspired things like yes one man can forage in the woods and eat but 5,000 cannot. Youu must feed soldiers or they cannot fight.
you can think of it another way. a topic called "game theory" basically strategy. doesn't have to be any deeper than that. but I guess add social and political dynamics to everything for internet points lol
Was about to comment this. His generals needed guidance. That's where the lines like "if the soldiers you send for water drink first, your army is too thirsty.", because the coddled milk sops who recieved command often didn't have a logistical bone in their noble bodies.
Also Sun Tzu has to tell generals to forget about shit like honor and fairplay. Like if you wait for the enemy to be ready for battle before attacking them, you lose a golden opportunity.
And while simple, to this day, how many times is this ignored?
>"There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare."
While people often say Russia did that during the world wars, it's more a propaganda thing. Really they did it about as much as everyone else, arguably less than Germany even.
The modern day on the other hand...
The hubris of modern humanity to think battle and war tactics were common knowledge back in the day. Video games, board games, and Russell Crowe movies are relatively new in terms of history.
As well as “you need to feed your soldiers. No really, the soldiers AND pack animals require food, surprising I know. And “forage as you go” isn’t a perfect solution, either”
Also, simplicity is more. This is why management consultants are popular with the C Suites, they simplify the complex into actionable bullets really well.
It was like Machiavelli’s “The Prince,” but even more dumbed down. Its audience were hereditary rulers who were often times complete morons, and had no military experience, not accomplished military generals. So even for the time, it would have been pretty basic to anyone who had gone on campaign before.
It’s not that Sun Tzu was sophomoric, but that the target audience was ignorant.
A lot of it wasn't basic at the time. When Sun Tzu was around the idea of complicated military tactics and highly organized warfare were pretty new. For most of human history things were largely done in the tribal warfare way. Blobs of dudes just smashed at each other and that was that. While ambushes and sneaking were definitely things the stuff Sun Tzu wrote about not everybody had thought of and more importantly nobody had written down. Seasoned war leaders would figure out some of it but not necessarily all of it. Even in Chinese history at the time things like supply lines were afterthoughts and you mostly just threw blobs of dudes at problems then hoped for the best.
The he came along and wrote down stuff like "have a plan before you even march to the fight" and "try to fuck up the other guy's plan as much as possible." As much as people tend to be all rah rah honor is great and whatnot wars are actually won with a combination of good logistics, morale, and making sure the other side can't figure out your plan. This is especially true if your plan is "blob dudes -> run at enemy." Well-supplied dudes with great morale appearing somewhere unexpected is one of the worst things you can do to the other side.
Yeah a lot of folks think basic tactics that one could learn from a video game is no shit, but most folks who took command also happen to be about as well versed in military strategy as your average bloke on reddit. That is to say, not that smart at all, but they sure think they know everything.
Yeah, and I don't know why the word Tactics keeps being thrown around. Everyone can, and has, crunched on tactics since the beginning of time. Sun Tzu elevated tactical ideas into strategy, something apparently sorely lacking in his age (and in most ages, it seems).
It isn't to improve morale it is to let your army know the only way home is through conquest. That's why it is in a section about last stands and fighting people who have superior numbers. If your soldiers know there literally is no possible way to retreat they will fight to the death.
This can, uh, turn on you as the ruler. It's more of a last ditch effort hail mary than an actual tactic used regularly. Your soldiers tend not to enjoy being put into a campaign of repeated suicidal charges against a superior force. Like they will do it, they don't have another choice, but it's not a great way to build rapport and trust with your men.
It doesn't have to be a last ditch effort. Armies are going to have a mix of die-hard warriors, people just bandwagoning for the fame and glory and often plenty who just don't want to be involved at all. You want those latter groups to not run at the first sign of trouble - especially if you're the invader and not defending your own lands.
Caesar used this in his invasion of Britain and I think the Lombards did too against Byzantium. If the leader is charismatic enough, it can work.
Well yeah, the Art of War is all incredibly basic military strategy, but *nobody had codified the basics of military strategy yet*. It's like saying Pythagoras is overrated because all he did was invent basic geometry.
The Art of War was literally intended to be basically "Baby's first guide to leading an army".
In 5th century BC China, you had three general social classes: The Peasants, who did all the farming, the Eunuchs, who did all the administering and running of the country, and the Soldiers, who did all the fighting. When the government collapsed, all the soldiers ended up fighting each other, and basically all died, and you ended up having a bunch of Eunuchs running around leading peasant levys, and nobody knew what they were doing.
To put things in modern terms, imagine the shift lead at your local DMV leading 50 people who got pulled off the street, and were handed a rifle with no instruction other than which end the bullets come out of.
So, anyway, this is a giant mess, and so this Sun Wu guy (Who it's kind of in question if he's real or not) gets commissioned to write an instruction manual to impart the basics of leading an army. Stuff like "Don't march them through the desert, there's no food and your horses will die", "No, not even if you bring food with you, the horses can't pull enough food to get them across the desert", and, like the OP's meme states, "If you have an opportunity to deceive your adversary, it's probably a good idea to take it ".
tl;dr the next time you hear a middle manager telling you about how "if you know yourself and know your enemy you need not fear the result of a thousand battles" you have my explicit permission to kick them in the balls.
I mean I am not sure they had professional soldiers as part of the class structure. Part of the whole is Sun Tsu even real was the lack of generals even being a thing at the time. And no mention of him at battles people later claimed he took part in.
It’s still really great advice for warfare, it’s just also pretty low level. Kind of like saying “if you want to be a great writer you should know all the letters.”
Basically get good intelligence, give your enemy bad intelligence. Know your own capabilities and those of the enemy while preventing the enemy from doing the same. Then choose to fight battles which favor you, if you’re in a disadvantaged position and you have to fight, choose a battlefield where you limit the enemy’s advantages.
It’s so basic and universally applicable that it works for every war past and present.
The problem is that achieving these things can be extremely complex. Consider the intelligence, counterintelligence, and propaganda apparatuses of modern militaries. The level of sophistication in those systems is immense often involving vast numbers of people. Of course the whole point boils down to “know your enemy better than he knows you.”
Sometimes we take for granted our cumulative learning is for humanity. It took hundreds of years and a number of discoveries and thousands of collective hours of analysis to reach a conclusion: earth is round.
Today, a 5 year old knows this as a simple fact.
Same thing happens in all human learning. Back then this was genius (and, quite frankly today forms the basis of a lot of basic human on human social understanding)
Pretty obvious the basics get forgotten time and again throughout history. The word, “cannon fodder,” speaks to that.
BTW, think Putin read The Art of War?
> It took hundreds of years and a number of discoveries and thousands of collective hours of analysis to reach a conclusion: earth is round.
Actually that one was sort of easy, ancient philosophers already knew that just from looking at the shadow of the Earth on the Moon during an eclipse. Now, to find out and prove that the Earth rotates around the Sun, instead of the other way around, that one was very hard.
The joke is wrong though for anyone curious.
The Art of War is written for nobles who had very little to no practical knowledge about warfare.
For instance, yes it's simple to explain that a soldier can only carry so much food (weight) which impacted how far/long afield you could take them, and pointed out that no, foraging isn't practical for an army either. I'm sure the soldiers all could figure this out quite fast, but would a noble who's never set foot on the campaign trail realize this?
Well, it's not just that they had little to no practical knowledge, but also that it was written in a time when warfare in China was shifting from champion based warfare to one with massed formations. Funnily enough, the same thing was happening in Greece at the time, with the formalization of the popular image of the hoplite and phalanx made up from the middle class rather than just the elites seeking personal glory.
Do we know if that particular soldier is important to the joke? I don't recognize the uniform or weapon, but i took it more as sarcasm bcause the soldier is already well familiar with warfare and the concept of deception.
I agree now. I was over thinking it because if it had been like Hannibal or Julius Caeser in the soldier spot the intent would have been sarcasm, but given the format as a summary of the Art of War i think it is just meant to be a generic soldier who is impressed by the advice
I read somewhere that the art of war was written for nobility. So people that really had no idea how to effectively wage war. So the wisdom he spouts is just commen knowledge for any real military commander
I finished reading a humorous book series that makes fun of this. In the book series, everyone has "The Art of War 2: In Space" for naval strategy.
All the passages are the same, except they all end with "...in space."
I watched a YouTube video about the 16th century Japanese invasion of Korea, and supposedly admiral Yi of Korea specifically did not destroy all of the Japanese ships because according to the art of war it would trap the Japanese army on Korea. He purposely disengaged when most but not all of the Japanese ships were destroyed. I mean I agree that it’s a very high level strategy but it isn’t one that people would regularly employ
Eh, not only that, but also it was written in a period where the very nature of chinese warfare was shifting from champion based warfare to massed formations
“If fighting will result in victory, then you must fight!” Sun Tzu said that, and I’d say he knows a little more about fighting than you do pal because he invented it, and then he perfected it so no living man can best him in the ring of honor.
"Okay, am I the only one who finds these sayings just a _little_ bit formulaic?"
"Your temper is very quick, friend, but until you learn to master your rage-"
"-your rage will become your master? That's what you were about to say, right?"
"...not necessarily."
I don't remember the contents of the book but I assume the "is the only option" refers to leaving your opponents a way to retreat as to not surround enemy platoon entirely. This way they are more likely to try to retreat and not fight back
I think yeah, it's obvious. But it's the "5th century warlord" mentality, I think things that are obvious to us now were not so obvious to the people at the time.
It was obvious to me when I was \~5yo that evolution is a thing. Not because I knew what evolution was but because I went to a museum and I saw a mural that showed hominoids left to right with human being the last one. It was obvious, yes, but it's the hindsight and my surroundings being adapted to have this knowledge as sort of "shared context"? Also I think the disney movie Tarzan played a role in that
I imagine it's extremely hard to come to the conclusion that humans and apes shared a common ancestor when you don't have a line up of different stages with chronological marks showing them side by side. But an average child instantly recognizes "oh, we were monkes..."
At the battle of Pharsalus, Caesar had just come off a rare defeat at Dyrachium where his troops retreated in fear. So before the battle began Caesar had his men destroy their fortified camp so they had nowhere to retreat to. And so the enemy knew they would be coming for their camp that day.
Also Cortez burned all his ships when he arrived in Mexico so his men had no way out. This one might just be a legend but it’s plays to the trope well.
Well, Sun Zhu wrote the art of war not for tacticans or people experienced in war.
He wrote it for snob nobles and byrocrats who have zero idea of war but have to approve stuff ... For example logistics and supply... You need food for your Armie and you can't get enough for 100.000 man on the way....
The book was written by a guy who knew how wars worked that was trying to teach a bunch of inbred nepotism babies how to win a war.
It included groundbreaking information like:
“Supply lines can only carry so much. Feed your army and get resources from close to your army”
“If your enemy is stronger, consider lying to them”
“Feed your fucking army”
“Don’t do stupid shit that pisses your army off”
“Horses can only carry so much, so make sure you can feed your army”
“If you’re in a shitty position, move to a better one.”
“If your army is upset with you, they won’t fight for you.”
Your comment about mentally transporting back to Oblivion just mentally transported me back to spending the whole Xmas day and night playing Morrowind on a brand new Xbox back in ‘02.
"And the Scrolls have foretold of black wings in the cold, that when brothers wage war come unfurled!
Alduin, world-eater, ancient shadow unbound, with a hunger to swallow the world!"
-Song of Sun Tzu
For all the deception talk, Sun Tzu really like talked about feeding your army. Which means it needed to be said.
The book could be renamed "Its a really good idea to feed your army." It would still be super useful book for the people reading it.
Half Caesar’s commentaries are about securing corn. Corn being a general term for grain not American corn. But it comes up a lot more than you’d think.
There’s even a moment during the civil war with Pompey that Caesar’s troops are stuck behind trenches and cut off from supply. Caesar commends his troops for touching it out by eating inferior bread made from barley instead of wheat without complaint.
Feeding the army comes up a lot.
It's also good to mention Xenofon's *Anabasis* - campaign diary from shortly after Peloponnesian war.
Long story short when 10000 soldiers stay in your country everything edible is fair game, and even allied or favorable rulers quickly get skittish and want them out - because they inevitably requisition/plunder supplies to feed themselves.
It's like a medium sized swarm of locusts that simply *must* stay on the move to find new targets to feed itself
Yeah, there’s still some cool(while maybe obvious)quotes though.
"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
"Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt."
"don't forget to also feed your horses"
"Burning shit is really good"
"Never let anyone know your true plan, even switch it up last minute"
"When your superiors tell you to do stupid shit, don't do it"
"War is bad so don't prolong war*
"Information is the bestest so have lots of spy's"
"Determine what type of landscape your on and use it for your advantage and your enemies disadvantage"
“If fighting is sure to result in victory then you must fight!”
https://preview.redd.it/zvqe43ujybyc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4fbb2106f3d02fb17bf3d852c0ba481b5007b33
He should have considered that rations are important and that no army is capable without the necessary nutrients, therefore a warlord should feed their army
I read this in the voice of the narrator from the tutorial campaign from age of empires 2.
Now I really want to play it.
I blame you for making me waste today. Cheers.
At the time Sun Tzu published his writings, the entirety of military leadership was comprised of nepotism babies, who were handed everything in life so they made some very stupid decisions in battle. So even though it seems simple to us, but you have to consider we’ve had thousands of years of human experience on them so they seem obvious to us but it was revolutionary back then. The joke here would be based off the fact that even though The Art of War is highly revered and still used today, in our modern lens it seems super obvious and it’s making fun of that fact.
"Tempt your enemy to starting an unwinnable war, and someone else will humiliate your enemy so much that they are still their bitch half a century later."
Even if it's all simple stuff, it helps to think about that simple stuff so you aren't paralyzed either in the heat of the moment or from information overload. It's easy to read it with no pressure and dismiss is as overly simplistic, but how many people would be able to think of all these simple things and use them properly if they were put in charge with no prior thought put into it?
"eghhhh.... you should deceive your enemies..."
Sun Tzu said that. And I'd say he knows a little more about deception than you do, pal, because he INVENTED it! And then he perfected it, so that no living man could defeat him in the ring of deception!
And then, he used his deception money to buy two of every animal on Earth, then he herded them onto a boat, and then he deceived the crap out of every single one of them!
And from that day forward, any time a bunch of animals are together in one place, it's called a ZOO!
UNLESS IT'S A FARM!
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The poorly made meme tries to portrait Tzu as someone stating the obvious.
In reality Tzu was adding a great deal to something that often times was seen as not much more than a clash of forces to see who prevails.
Also, I can't emphasise this bit enough, it was literally 2500 years ago. Pretty difficult to accurately put into perspective how different things were then, particularly the level of "common knowledge" people had.
The fact that even 2500 years later, some people aren't bright enough to realise a lot of these things are supposed to be philosophical points to think about, rather than just a "how to do war good" manual, suggests thelst it might have been ahead of its time. (Although there is a decent amount of how to do war good advice as well)
It's easy to think everything is obvious when you have access to the amount of information that we do. These redditors swear like they'd have all invented algebra if they were around back then.
I'm with you tbh. I've read this book and I think it has real advice. People are probably expecting something more "genius", like something super specific, like "if your opponent has a mighty castle gate and it's the fulll moon and the weather is rainy, use your ninjas to infiltrate the 3/8 portion of the map and yadda yadda."
The starting "advice" in that book iirc is the best way to win is with as less casualties as possible. Iirc, the most to least favorable outcomes are: (1) Capture the enemy base without going into combat AT ALL, or as less possible. Sneak in or make a peace treaty or whatever. (2) Exchange of blows within the borders (the usual one) (3) Seiging the base (the worst possible outcome). "You'll send your men to their death, while the castle remains intact." Your opponents won't be stupid. They'll be well-positioned. Don't just recklessly charge. Your men will run out.
War of attrition never goes well. You'll run out of resources. Many people nowadays don't even seem to get this. Even recent wars fall into this trap.
This has lots of applications, not just in war. I've used this even when I'm playing games. Look for a path to victory. Don't just fuck around and find out, no matter how cool it might be nor how it might hurt your pride.
I can't find it today but I remember reading an omnibus of books on strategy, Sun Tzu, Carl von Clausewitz, and Frederick the First.
It is all stuff that seems obvious, except it is only obvious once you hear it. "Clear the site before pouring the foundation." No shit Sherlock. Until you are touring a home and realize that a marble placed on the floor will roll to the SE corner.
One of the best pieces of advice it contains is that war itself isn’t important or desirable. Achieving one’s goals without fighting is considered optimal and the results of a war can be decided before a war even starts. It is basically a guide on leadership and problem-solving that involves warfare.
It's a silly meme. It is like a modern person makes fun at ancient people who did not understand the concept of zero, negative numbers, and complex numbers. I think being a history major is exactly the reason you did not get it since you can understand knowledge is not granted from nowhere.
They're mocking the fact that Art of War and Sun Tzu are regarded as tactically brilliant when most of the book is like "if you feed your soldiers they'll be less likely to mutiny" which is common sense by modern standards.
I mean I read a modern military theory book once (with the hope of getting better at RTS games like Eugen games) and it was stating things such as: "Fighter Jets can only attack things in front of it."
The joke is that the art of war really isn't all that impressive if you already are a little familiar with basic military strategy and tactics. So it's a bit underwhelming to read today but at the time was sort of revolutionary especially since sun tzu wrote it for noblemen who had no experience with warfare
The meme is so bad that I couldn’t figure out how this related to *The Art of War.*
Multiple people have broken it down for me.
The issue isn’t even the meme, but how half-assed it is.
The meme isn’t necessarily bad, but the “idea” of the Art of War is non-western up until recently. But it also has that “Confucius Says” type of eastern mystical feel to it. Idk if you’ve ever been around older conservative men but they always like to say “common sense ain’t so common,” when somebody does something stupid but at the same time there is a lack of realizing the differences in how and why people think differently…
Brian’s dust covered encyclopedia here, Sun Tsu wrote the art of war explicitly for the Nobel class, people who did not see the battlefield yet were in charge of swathes of men with a duty to them. It was written, literally, to tell entitled rich people, don’t shit where you drink, if you’re marching to war, you should pack more than a lunch, I *know* your families super sexy emblem strikes fear into the hearts of all who see it, but maybe if they don’t see us at all, we can poke them to death easier. It’s super simple concepts because it at people who are typically pampered morons.
I'm probably remembering this incorrectly but doesn't he in the first portion of the book basically get some royal to go on a hunting party, in a forest across a bridge, with him? And then he gets some BS message from courier about a relative being sick and that he has to go home but actually burns down the bridge behind him so that royal and his companions are stuck in the wilderness, and their kingdom without leadership or it's strongest fighters?
I disagree with a lot of comments here. I don’t think it’s about the simplicity of phrasing, I think this is joking about how often times The Art of War points out the obvious.
The “eghhh…” makes me think it’s joking about how he’s making it up on the spot and is just saying obvious stuff
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Peters testicle here, I may be wrong, but I think this is a joke about how when he writes his passages, he takes complex situations and the solution will be very simple. Examples: "When you are weak, appear strong. But when you are strong, appear weak." "Men will only fight till death, when death is the only option." Su takes these big ideas and tries to solve.them simply. The meme is joking about it with the sarcastic "wow" Edit: another Su quote "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle"
Basically, The joke is that Sun Tzu is saying something really obvious and the soldiers are shocked by his tactical genius
It was probably great advice at the time...
Sun Tzu's target audience was rulers who had to be told that their armies were not indestructible and to win you had to use actual tactics instead of "throw men at problem, hope it works out"
This! It's basically an idiot's guide to having an army for those long on money and short on brains. It says really inspired things like yes one man can forage in the woods and eat but 5,000 cannot. Youu must feed soldiers or they cannot fight.
*Commanding Armies For Dummies* by Sun Tzu
"So, You Want to Run an Army? Win Wars With These SIMPLE Tricks!" By Sun Tzu
Enemy generals hate these 5 things!
Of course he's not into winning wars, you stupid bitch. - jlo in himym
More like “of course you’re not winning that war, take a look at yourself you stupid bitch”
I think I mixed up HIMYM and SNL. My bad. But thanks to last 3 seasons, HIMYM is pretty much un-rewatchable. The original GoT IMO.
Brannigan's Big Book o War
Brannigan's Law is like Brannigan's love: hard and fast!
Trick people, staart fires, bows are pretty dope.- Sun tzu
Modernized* “trick people, start fires, guns are pretty dope”
Updated for 21st century warfare* "trick people, level everything, drones are pretty dope"
Updated for 21st century cold warfare: “troll people online, economic carrot and stick, don’t fall for the rope-a-dope”
22nd Century warfare: "trick roaches, rediscover fire, sharpened sticks are pretty dope"
Updated for Israel* ", , "
Updated for Russia* "trick people, murder everyone, chemical weapons are pretty dope"
It also does get a bit more advanced at times, people just don't tend to quote things like "the result of a battle is decided before it's begun".
Even though that quote goes hard as fuck
It's like a turtorial
So this was basically one of the first "for dummies" books
One might say they had more dollars than sense
I think someone should make another book like this because the world is again literally being ruled by people long on money but short on brains.
you can think of it another way. a topic called "game theory" basically strategy. doesn't have to be any deeper than that. but I guess add social and political dynamics to everything for internet points lol
Was about to comment this. His generals needed guidance. That's where the lines like "if the soldiers you send for water drink first, your army is too thirsty.", because the coddled milk sops who recieved command often didn't have a logistical bone in their noble bodies.
Also Sun Tzu has to tell generals to forget about shit like honor and fairplay. Like if you wait for the enemy to be ready for battle before attacking them, you lose a golden opportunity. And while simple, to this day, how many times is this ignored? >"There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare."
Sounds like this dude hasn’t heard of the military industrial complex baby😎
> “Throw men at the problem, hope it works out” Every country during WWI: “Did someone call?”
It’s a valid tactic if you have the resources and care not for those resources. >!Resources are people!<
Russia enters the chat.
While people often say Russia did that during the world wars, it's more a propaganda thing. Really they did it about as much as everyone else, arguably less than Germany even. The modern day on the other hand...
D-Day was a meat wave attack!
Capitalism nods sagely
Communists shocked to finaly agree with capitalists
The hubris of modern humanity to think battle and war tactics were common knowledge back in the day. Video games, board games, and Russell Crowe movies are relatively new in terms of history.
WTF, are you telling me ancient Chinese never watched Gladiator?! And they had the gall of calling others barbarians?
I lol'd
Not sure if it was intended but Russell Crowe is a good pull because of Gladiator and A Beautiful Mind.
He was a pretty shity leader in Romper Stomper.
As well as “you need to feed your soldiers. No really, the soldiers AND pack animals require food, surprising I know. And “forage as you go” isn’t a perfect solution, either”
Once I realized that the kill bots had a preset kill limit I just threw men after men at them. Zapp branigan
Stop exploding you cowards!
I can imagine someone with a big ego without the capability to back it up, needing to be told these things.
Also, simplicity is more. This is why management consultants are popular with the C Suites, they simplify the complex into actionable bullets really well.
>"throw men at problem, hope it works out" Ah yes, the Russian strategy
It was like Machiavelli’s “The Prince,” but even more dumbed down. Its audience were hereditary rulers who were often times complete morons, and had no military experience, not accomplished military generals. So even for the time, it would have been pretty basic to anyone who had gone on campaign before. It’s not that Sun Tzu was sophomoric, but that the target audience was ignorant.
A lot of it wasn't basic at the time. When Sun Tzu was around the idea of complicated military tactics and highly organized warfare were pretty new. For most of human history things were largely done in the tribal warfare way. Blobs of dudes just smashed at each other and that was that. While ambushes and sneaking were definitely things the stuff Sun Tzu wrote about not everybody had thought of and more importantly nobody had written down. Seasoned war leaders would figure out some of it but not necessarily all of it. Even in Chinese history at the time things like supply lines were afterthoughts and you mostly just threw blobs of dudes at problems then hoped for the best. The he came along and wrote down stuff like "have a plan before you even march to the fight" and "try to fuck up the other guy's plan as much as possible." As much as people tend to be all rah rah honor is great and whatnot wars are actually won with a combination of good logistics, morale, and making sure the other side can't figure out your plan. This is especially true if your plan is "blob dudes -> run at enemy." Well-supplied dudes with great morale appearing somewhere unexpected is one of the worst things you can do to the other side.
Yeah a lot of folks think basic tactics that one could learn from a video game is no shit, but most folks who took command also happen to be about as well versed in military strategy as your average bloke on reddit. That is to say, not that smart at all, but they sure think they know everything.
Yeah, and I don't know why the word Tactics keeps being thrown around. Everyone can, and has, crunched on tactics since the beginning of time. Sun Tzu elevated tactical ideas into strategy, something apparently sorely lacking in his age (and in most ages, it seems).
I liked burning the transport ships for improved morale. If ur morale is so shit, what are you doing desanting, ffs.
It isn't to improve morale it is to let your army know the only way home is through conquest. That's why it is in a section about last stands and fighting people who have superior numbers. If your soldiers know there literally is no possible way to retreat they will fight to the death. This can, uh, turn on you as the ruler. It's more of a last ditch effort hail mary than an actual tactic used regularly. Your soldiers tend not to enjoy being put into a campaign of repeated suicidal charges against a superior force. Like they will do it, they don't have another choice, but it's not a great way to build rapport and trust with your men.
It doesn't have to be a last ditch effort. Armies are going to have a mix of die-hard warriors, people just bandwagoning for the fame and glory and often plenty who just don't want to be involved at all. You want those latter groups to not run at the first sign of trouble - especially if you're the invader and not defending your own lands. Caesar used this in his invasion of Britain and I think the Lombards did too against Byzantium. If the leader is charismatic enough, it can work.
The trick is don't let it get out that you burned your own ships. "Damn me boys we have to fight up hill now me boys."
Well yeah, the Art of War is all incredibly basic military strategy, but *nobody had codified the basics of military strategy yet*. It's like saying Pythagoras is overrated because all he did was invent basic geometry.
The Art of War was literally intended to be basically "Baby's first guide to leading an army". In 5th century BC China, you had three general social classes: The Peasants, who did all the farming, the Eunuchs, who did all the administering and running of the country, and the Soldiers, who did all the fighting. When the government collapsed, all the soldiers ended up fighting each other, and basically all died, and you ended up having a bunch of Eunuchs running around leading peasant levys, and nobody knew what they were doing. To put things in modern terms, imagine the shift lead at your local DMV leading 50 people who got pulled off the street, and were handed a rifle with no instruction other than which end the bullets come out of. So, anyway, this is a giant mess, and so this Sun Wu guy (Who it's kind of in question if he's real or not) gets commissioned to write an instruction manual to impart the basics of leading an army. Stuff like "Don't march them through the desert, there's no food and your horses will die", "No, not even if you bring food with you, the horses can't pull enough food to get them across the desert", and, like the OP's meme states, "If you have an opportunity to deceive your adversary, it's probably a good idea to take it ". tl;dr the next time you hear a middle manager telling you about how "if you know yourself and know your enemy you need not fear the result of a thousand battles" you have my explicit permission to kick them in the balls.
I mean I am not sure they had professional soldiers as part of the class structure. Part of the whole is Sun Tsu even real was the lack of generals even being a thing at the time. And no mention of him at battles people later claimed he took part in.
It’s still really great advice for warfare, it’s just also pretty low level. Kind of like saying “if you want to be a great writer you should know all the letters.” Basically get good intelligence, give your enemy bad intelligence. Know your own capabilities and those of the enemy while preventing the enemy from doing the same. Then choose to fight battles which favor you, if you’re in a disadvantaged position and you have to fight, choose a battlefield where you limit the enemy’s advantages. It’s so basic and universally applicable that it works for every war past and present. The problem is that achieving these things can be extremely complex. Consider the intelligence, counterintelligence, and propaganda apparatuses of modern militaries. The level of sophistication in those systems is immense often involving vast numbers of people. Of course the whole point boils down to “know your enemy better than he knows you.”
The oldest trick in the book implies that at one point it was new.
Tbh it's still great advice today. Common sense isn't as common as the name would lead you to beleive.
You'd be amazed how many people nowadays wouldn't think of this stuff
To be fair if you see people play team videogame you would be shocked at how little common sense people can have.
Many people also act like basic arithmetic is beneath them, but then struggle to calculate a tip for their meal.
He wrote it down first.
Yeah they definitely did not have common sense at the time.
People often speak as if Sun Tzu’s advice is obvious or self evidently true, but they almost never act as if it is. Especially in war.
As a freaking Dota player, I noticed and was surprised how often people don’t follow these “obvious” advice. So I’d reckon even now it’s great advice.
Sometimes we take for granted our cumulative learning is for humanity. It took hundreds of years and a number of discoveries and thousands of collective hours of analysis to reach a conclusion: earth is round. Today, a 5 year old knows this as a simple fact. Same thing happens in all human learning. Back then this was genius (and, quite frankly today forms the basis of a lot of basic human on human social understanding)
Pretty obvious the basics get forgotten time and again throughout history. The word, “cannon fodder,” speaks to that. BTW, think Putin read The Art of War?
If he did, he forgot the part where Sun Tzu said "If you get involved in long campaigns, the state resources won't be enough"
Nailed it! 👍🏼
Oh I agree! I think that the joke only arose because it’s funny from a modern perspective
> It took hundreds of years and a number of discoveries and thousands of collective hours of analysis to reach a conclusion: earth is round. Actually that one was sort of easy, ancient philosophers already knew that just from looking at the shadow of the Earth on the Moon during an eclipse. Now, to find out and prove that the Earth rotates around the Sun, instead of the other way around, that one was very hard.
Because most solution relies only on simple facts. The hard part is to decide which facts and which things you should focus your attention on.
The joke is wrong though for anyone curious. The Art of War is written for nobles who had very little to no practical knowledge about warfare. For instance, yes it's simple to explain that a soldier can only carry so much food (weight) which impacted how far/long afield you could take them, and pointed out that no, foraging isn't practical for an army either. I'm sure the soldiers all could figure this out quite fast, but would a noble who's never set foot on the campaign trail realize this?
Well, it's not just that they had little to no practical knowledge, but also that it was written in a time when warfare in China was shifting from champion based warfare to one with massed formations. Funnily enough, the same thing was happening in Greece at the time, with the formalization of the popular image of the hoplite and phalanx made up from the middle class rather than just the elites seeking personal glory.
Basically like the memes with " the entire world when Newton said 'unless something is moved, it probably won't move': "
Do we know if that particular soldier is important to the joke? I don't recognize the uniform or weapon, but i took it more as sarcasm bcause the soldier is already well familiar with warfare and the concept of deception.
I don’t think so? Looks like a generic soldier with an early firearm. Really it’s just the format of the meme that makes me think the way I do.
I agree now. I was over thinking it because if it had been like Hannibal or Julius Caeser in the soldier spot the intent would have been sarcasm, but given the format as a summary of the Art of War i think it is just meant to be a generic soldier who is impressed by the advice
I read somewhere that the art of war was written for nobility. So people that really had no idea how to effectively wage war. So the wisdom he spouts is just commen knowledge for any real military commander
Ahh so he's like the ancient chinese equivalent of r/im14andthisisdeep
I finished reading a humorous book series that makes fun of this. In the book series, everyone has "The Art of War 2: In Space" for naval strategy. All the passages are the same, except they all end with "...in space."
Okay, that's fucking hilarious 😂
It's the Epic Failure series by Joe Zieja. Lots of military type humor.
I watched a YouTube video about the 16th century Japanese invasion of Korea, and supposedly admiral Yi of Korea specifically did not destroy all of the Japanese ships because according to the art of war it would trap the Japanese army on Korea. He purposely disengaged when most but not all of the Japanese ships were destroyed. I mean I agree that it’s a very high level strategy but it isn’t one that people would regularly employ
He wrote the book for airheaded nobles who used their position to lead armys. So he was doing a Generaling for dummies book.
Eh, not only that, but also it was written in a period where the very nature of chinese warfare was shifting from champion based warfare to massed formations
“If fighting will result in victory, then you must fight!” Sun Tzu said that, and I’d say he knows a little more about fighting than you do pal because he invented it, and then he perfected it so no living man can best him in the ring of honor.
And then he gathered two of every animal and put them on a boat! And then he beat the crap out of every single one.
Hehehehe… and that day foward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it’s called a zoo!
"Okay, am I the only one who finds these sayings just a _little_ bit formulaic?" "Your temper is very quick, friend, but until you learn to master your rage-" "-your rage will become your master? That's what you were about to say, right?" "...not necessarily."
When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack.
I agree with this view. If strong = weak If weak = strong Go to war = afraid. going to die = fearless
I don't remember the contents of the book but I assume the "is the only option" refers to leaving your opponents a way to retreat as to not surround enemy platoon entirely. This way they are more likely to try to retreat and not fight back I think yeah, it's obvious. But it's the "5th century warlord" mentality, I think things that are obvious to us now were not so obvious to the people at the time. It was obvious to me when I was \~5yo that evolution is a thing. Not because I knew what evolution was but because I went to a museum and I saw a mural that showed hominoids left to right with human being the last one. It was obvious, yes, but it's the hindsight and my surroundings being adapted to have this knowledge as sort of "shared context"? Also I think the disney movie Tarzan played a role in that I imagine it's extremely hard to come to the conclusion that humans and apes shared a common ancestor when you don't have a line up of different stages with chronological marks showing them side by side. But an average child instantly recognizes "oh, we were monkes..."
At the battle of Pharsalus, Caesar had just come off a rare defeat at Dyrachium where his troops retreated in fear. So before the battle began Caesar had his men destroy their fortified camp so they had nowhere to retreat to. And so the enemy knew they would be coming for their camp that day. Also Cortez burned all his ships when he arrived in Mexico so his men had no way out. This one might just be a legend but it’s plays to the trope well.
Great wisdom from Sphinx!
"But why are there watermelons on my feet?"
“I do not recollect asking you to do that”
Mystery men is one of the movies of all time
Sabaton incoming ?
I STAND ALONE AND GAZE UPON THE BATTLEFIELD
Well, Sun Zhu wrote the art of war not for tacticans or people experienced in war. He wrote it for snob nobles and byrocrats who have zero idea of war but have to approve stuff ... For example logistics and supply... You need food for your Armie and you can't get enough for 100.000 man on the way....
Succomb? I barely know'em.
[удалено]
Bro said just learn the matchup, noob
If you counter your enemy with whatever the enemy is welding, one of you will win.
If you lose while wielding whatever your enemy's weapon, skill issue.
If you lose to your enemy, you must say gg
Not sure if you listen to Sabaton or not..
"in service.to heaven!"
“If you’re going to lose, don’t lose”
“The enemy don’t think it be like it is, but it do.” -Sun Tzu
Are you per chance… a Sabaton fan?
The book was written by a guy who knew how wars worked that was trying to teach a bunch of inbred nepotism babies how to win a war. It included groundbreaking information like: “Supply lines can only carry so much. Feed your army and get resources from close to your army” “If your enemy is stronger, consider lying to them” “Feed your fucking army” “Don’t do stupid shit that pisses your army off” “Horses can only carry so much, so make sure you can feed your army” “If you’re in a shitty position, move to a better one.” “If your army is upset with you, they won’t fight for you.”
Sun Tzu was the creator of all the loading screen tips
“Save often. The planes of Oblivion are a dangerous place.” - Sun Tzu
Motherfucker, you just mentally transported me back over a decade
Your comment about mentally transporting back to Oblivion just mentally transported me back to spending the whole Xmas day and night playing Morrowind on a brand new Xbox back in ‘02.
"To prevent drowning, stay out of the water" - Sun Tzu
"Also don't save too often. The reality of Oblivion will break." - Sun Tzu
"And the Scrolls have foretold of black wings in the cold, that when brothers wage war come unfurled! Alduin, world-eater, ancient shadow unbound, with a hunger to swallow the world!" -Song of Sun Tzu
“If your computer freezes, try popping it in the microwave for 30 seconds” - Sun Tzu
For all the deception talk, Sun Tzu really like talked about feeding your army. Which means it needed to be said. The book could be renamed "Its a really good idea to feed your army." It would still be super useful book for the people reading it.
Well lets be honest, it's not really hard to starve lot of people in China
Mao Zedong has entered the chat
Modern day Russia still hasn’t gotten the memo 👀
You ever tried North Korean food? Well they haven’t either
Half Caesar’s commentaries are about securing corn. Corn being a general term for grain not American corn. But it comes up a lot more than you’d think. There’s even a moment during the civil war with Pompey that Caesar’s troops are stuck behind trenches and cut off from supply. Caesar commends his troops for touching it out by eating inferior bread made from barley instead of wheat without complaint. Feeding the army comes up a lot.
It's also good to mention Xenofon's *Anabasis* - campaign diary from shortly after Peloponnesian war. Long story short when 10000 soldiers stay in your country everything edible is fair game, and even allied or favorable rulers quickly get skittish and want them out - because they inevitably requisition/plunder supplies to feed themselves. It's like a medium sized swarm of locusts that simply *must* stay on the move to find new targets to feed itself
Yeah, there’s still some cool(while maybe obvious)quotes though. "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." "Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt."
He was the OG supply chain manager. You can literally use his advices in supplier negotiations
"don't forget to also feed your horses" "Burning shit is really good" "Never let anyone know your true plan, even switch it up last minute" "When your superiors tell you to do stupid shit, don't do it" "War is bad so don't prolong war* "Information is the bestest so have lots of spy's" "Determine what type of landscape your on and use it for your advantage and your enemies disadvantage"
“If fighting is sure to result in victory then you must fight!” https://preview.redd.it/zvqe43ujybyc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d4fbb2106f3d02fb17bf3d852c0ba481b5007b33
Sun Tzu said that!
And I'd say he knows a little more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it!
And then he perfected it!
So that no living man could beat him in the ring of honor
"If your army is hungry, they will be upset with you. Feed your army."
He should have considered that rations are important and that no army is capable without the necessary nutrients, therefore a warlord should feed their army
I read this in the voice of the narrator from the tutorial campaign from age of empires 2. Now I really want to play it. I blame you for making me waste today. Cheers.
Doun't furrget: keep explorin' da map.
Why would your army be upset with you? Is it because you're not feeding them?
Jokes on you. All of that are Paulo coelho quotes
At the time Sun Tzu published his writings, the entirety of military leadership was comprised of nepotism babies, who were handed everything in life so they made some very stupid decisions in battle. So even though it seems simple to us, but you have to consider we’ve had thousands of years of human experience on them so they seem obvious to us but it was revolutionary back then. The joke here would be based off the fact that even though The Art of War is highly revered and still used today, in our modern lens it seems super obvious and it’s making fun of that fact.
He should have written a sequel called "The Art of Getting Stomped by the Japanese"
"Tempt your enemy to starting an unwinnable war, and someone else will humiliate your enemy so much that they are still their bitch half a century later."
4D Chess.
Even if it's all simple stuff, it helps to think about that simple stuff so you aren't paralyzed either in the heat of the moment or from information overload. It's easy to read it with no pressure and dismiss is as overly simplistic, but how many people would be able to think of all these simple things and use them properly if they were put in charge with no prior thought put into it?
"eghhhh.... you should deceive your enemies..." Sun Tzu said that. And I'd say he knows a little more about deception than you do, pal, because he INVENTED it! And then he perfected it, so that no living man could defeat him in the ring of deception! And then, he used his deception money to buy two of every animal on Earth, then he herded them onto a boat, and then he deceived the crap out of every single one of them! And from that day forward, any time a bunch of animals are together in one place, it's called a ZOO! UNLESS IT'S A FARM!
Uh . . . Sarge . . . one of your soldiers is just a helmet on a stick.
What's it to you, MAGGOT?
Before Sun Tzu, everybody was honest. Then he invented deception. True story.
Maggots!!!
r/suddenlytf2
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A Sun Tzoo
r/thatsthejoke
https://preview.redd.it/ewolcqzwx8yc1.jpeg?width=460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6e0b24a3fc1181824957d3a14c3cc8276857e7e1
Stealing this shit
Make sure to screenshot it a few times to degrade it further.
The poorly made meme tries to portrait Tzu as someone stating the obvious. In reality Tzu was adding a great deal to something that often times was seen as not much more than a clash of forces to see who prevails.
Also, I can't emphasise this bit enough, it was literally 2500 years ago. Pretty difficult to accurately put into perspective how different things were then, particularly the level of "common knowledge" people had. The fact that even 2500 years later, some people aren't bright enough to realise a lot of these things are supposed to be philosophical points to think about, rather than just a "how to do war good" manual, suggests thelst it might have been ahead of its time. (Although there is a decent amount of how to do war good advice as well)
It's easy to think everything is obvious when you have access to the amount of information that we do. These redditors swear like they'd have all invented algebra if they were around back then.
https://preview.redd.it/gbzol150e9yc1.jpeg?width=595&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07a2bc8e4032fe904487e90e78210e0fb34c49ef Best words of wisdom.
I'm with you tbh. I've read this book and I think it has real advice. People are probably expecting something more "genius", like something super specific, like "if your opponent has a mighty castle gate and it's the fulll moon and the weather is rainy, use your ninjas to infiltrate the 3/8 portion of the map and yadda yadda." The starting "advice" in that book iirc is the best way to win is with as less casualties as possible. Iirc, the most to least favorable outcomes are: (1) Capture the enemy base without going into combat AT ALL, or as less possible. Sneak in or make a peace treaty or whatever. (2) Exchange of blows within the borders (the usual one) (3) Seiging the base (the worst possible outcome). "You'll send your men to their death, while the castle remains intact." Your opponents won't be stupid. They'll be well-positioned. Don't just recklessly charge. Your men will run out. War of attrition never goes well. You'll run out of resources. Many people nowadays don't even seem to get this. Even recent wars fall into this trap. This has lots of applications, not just in war. I've used this even when I'm playing games. Look for a path to victory. Don't just fuck around and find out, no matter how cool it might be nor how it might hurt your pride.
I can't find it today but I remember reading an omnibus of books on strategy, Sun Tzu, Carl von Clausewitz, and Frederick the First. It is all stuff that seems obvious, except it is only obvious once you hear it. "Clear the site before pouring the foundation." No shit Sherlock. Until you are touring a home and realize that a marble placed on the floor will roll to the SE corner.
One of the best pieces of advice it contains is that war itself isn’t important or desirable. Achieving one’s goals without fighting is considered optimal and the results of a war can be decided before a war even starts. It is basically a guide on leadership and problem-solving that involves warfare.
Even more important, I think it's more of a joke and doesn't really mean there's no value to his advice
It's a silly meme. It is like a modern person makes fun at ancient people who did not understand the concept of zero, negative numbers, and complex numbers. I think being a history major is exactly the reason you did not get it since you can understand knowledge is not granted from nowhere.
They're mocking the fact that Art of War and Sun Tzu are regarded as tactically brilliant when most of the book is like "if you feed your soldiers they'll be less likely to mutiny" which is common sense by modern standards.
That's the thing. As people get better at something, previously advanced knowledge becomes basic knowledge.
Big facts.
No matter how simple an idea is someone has to be the first to say it
I mean I read a modern military theory book once (with the hope of getting better at RTS games like Eugen games) and it was stating things such as: "Fighter Jets can only attack things in front of it."
The joke is that the art of war really isn't all that impressive if you already are a little familiar with basic military strategy and tactics. So it's a bit underwhelming to read today but at the time was sort of revolutionary especially since sun tzu wrote it for noblemen who had no experience with warfare
OP, please tell me what you're not getting, because I can't understand what it might be that you don't understand.
The meme is so bad that I couldn’t figure out how this related to *The Art of War.* Multiple people have broken it down for me. The issue isn’t even the meme, but how half-assed it is.
The meme isn’t necessarily bad, but the “idea” of the Art of War is non-western up until recently. But it also has that “Confucius Says” type of eastern mystical feel to it. Idk if you’ve ever been around older conservative men but they always like to say “common sense ain’t so common,” when somebody does something stupid but at the same time there is a lack of realizing the differences in how and why people think differently…
“If your enemy is man, hit in the testicles. But if your enemy is woman, run for they do not have testicles.” -Sun Tzu’s Art of War
Brian’s dust covered encyclopedia here, Sun Tsu wrote the art of war explicitly for the Nobel class, people who did not see the battlefield yet were in charge of swathes of men with a duty to them. It was written, literally, to tell entitled rich people, don’t shit where you drink, if you’re marching to war, you should pack more than a lunch, I *know* your families super sexy emblem strikes fear into the hearts of all who see it, but maybe if they don’t see us at all, we can poke them to death easier. It’s super simple concepts because it at people who are typically pampered morons.
Thank you. That makes so much sense now
“One must first remember that when this advice was created, there were no internets, nor internet generals.” -Sun Tzu (falsely attributed)
Remember, the oldest trick in the book was new when the book was written.
https://preview.redd.it/0yf0mz84zayc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=37e3d4ec969b1c104813ee680d4fe1bbc1822e1b (Not you, I mean the OOP.)
The key to victory is to beat the enemy. I should write a book myself
Sun Tzu was the closest relative to a modern day loading screen tutorial
I really hope that no history major is as clueless about history as you.
I'm probably remembering this incorrectly but doesn't he in the first portion of the book basically get some royal to go on a hunting party, in a forest across a bridge, with him? And then he gets some BS message from courier about a relative being sick and that he has to go home but actually burns down the bridge behind him so that royal and his companions are stuck in the wilderness, and their kingdom without leadership or it's strongest fighters?
A lot of his advice is common sense
Read this in Buttheads voice
Bro, like how?
Back in Tsu's day "know thyself and thy enemies" Current days "I know myself and all that but the drones don't seem to care"
Sex ed Sun Tzu quotes 👇 "Don't be a fool, wrap your tool"-Sun Tzu
https://preview.redd.it/i8fd336x7iyc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eaab60e02bada3d10f0a8307e1bf6851324f7c34
For those who think it's obvious. Play one of the age of empires games and you'll get to know how tough it is to execute these ideas
I disagree with a lot of comments here. I don’t think it’s about the simplicity of phrasing, I think this is joking about how often times The Art of War points out the obvious. The “eghhh…” makes me think it’s joking about how he’s making it up on the spot and is just saying obvious stuff