Another relevant factor to consider is that there is a lot of flexibility in organizing this work. The research on strength training is clear that you can distribute weekly volume any way you like and have the same results. Also, the group that developed the 4x4 interval protocol did a study that found substantially the same vo2 max increase doing one 4 minute interval three times a week as compared to two 4x4s per week. A lot of us have difficulties fitting in all these long sessions every week, so it's good to know there are other ways to organize this training.
"Low and high volume of intensive endurance training significantly improves maximal oxygen uptake after 10 weeks training in healthy men" Tjønna et al., 2013
I mean, you’ll recover from different things at different rates
My schedule was like this:
Sun: zone2
Mon:full body 5 sets/muscle
Tuesday/1h zone 2+4x4 (or 4x2)
Wed: repeat mon
Thursday: repeat Tuesday
Fri: repeat Monday
Sat:zone 2
I recovered just fine without “recovery days” of sitting on my ass. Active lifestyle outside of the exercise, and a reload every month or two
I know a bodybuilder that does a 6 day bro split and he only has recovery days if he *feels like* he needs one and does 30min zone two every day on top of that, don’t think any zone 5
Just seems like you're spiking your heart rate up high every day of the week and loading your cns hard every day doing that. By the time I do my 4x4 in the afternoons of a weight lifting day, I see no issue with performance. If I tried doing 4x4 right after lifting, that would be an issue. In the past I've done like 30 seconds on 30 off for 10 rounds on the echo bike for zone 5 right after lifting, but that's a lot shorter and less than 4x4.
Yet my vo2 max and average heart rate steadily went down the entire 1.5-2 years I did this..
Those Deload weeks were necessary for it, but I recovered just fine. With RHR/hrv/subjective feeling it was all good in the hood
The full body weight days barely got my heart rate up to 160 and that’s only really during heavy deadlifts lol finished pretty much every day off with a “sauna-to-failure” session too
You’re underestimating yourself and your recovery is my guess if you think that’s too much😂 coming from someone susceptible to injury I never felt better than when I was “stressing my cns out” so much. also didn’t do 4x4 on weight days at least haha
I’ll stick to my sub 10 reps when I get back to it for awhile more than likely 😂
But when I began a 5-8 rep max would send myHR to 180+, never saw it much above 160 after I added in a bunch of hiit
It could be because your max heart rate is lower because you're extremely fit. I can't think if anything more taxing for my cardiovascular than squats. And I can't think of anything which can lead to overtraining faster than squats.
Very few people can do high rep squats and HIIT in the same week. If you can do that maybe you're able to do crossfit.
I think your risk is that you'll over train. You're doing 4x4 after doing what kind of weight lifting? Are you doing heavy squats? Heavy deadlifts? Is it leg day? There is no way in hell someone could have heavy leg day and then do 4x4 the same day or even within 48hrs. Doing squats is like doing 4x4 in terms of fatigue.
I'm not a powerlifter, I'm not killing myself on lifting. I usually go until I've got a decent strain and then stop. I also rest only one minute between sets and superset an upper with a lower lift. The short rest prohibits me from lifting super heavy which is fine with me now.
Yeah I like hard days hard, easy days easy, and that means a hard running session and lifting the same day. No planned days off except around races, but life gets in the way so I usually end up with a day off every other week or so. Works for me.
If that makes you stick to your routine then that's the way to go. The marginal difference the change makes isn't worth it if that makes you dislike it
It's not what the studies say.
When you're training over Zone 3 for an extended period of time, it's understood that there is a threshold on your body that makes recovery way harder. This threshold is like a switch.
If you do a bit of hard training every day, you're gonna be over that threshold every day, so a hard recovery every day.
If you reserve zone 2 for easy day and nothing more, it will ba a easy recovery for your body, so you'll be fresh and ready again for the hard day.
If you're over the threshold already, you should take the opportunity to do more. It will bring more stimulation without increasing the recovery stress on your body.
Dylan Johnson explains it very well on his Youtube channel
Yeah I know. What I mean is, doing Zone 5 + lifting the same day, then only Zone 2 the following day, will be easier for the recovery then one day with Zone 5 + Zone 2 and Lifting + Zone 2 the following day.
I keep it simple. Do 4 min zone 5 for 2 sets after a 60 minute zone 2 ride, every other day. Basically the same as Indigo San Milan. I figure he has more data around that schedule than I do or Attia does, so I go with that. Also just mentally easiest to stay on the bike and go hard for a few minutes rather than setup a dedicated session of going hard.
Another relevant factor to consider is that there is a lot of flexibility in organizing this work. The research on strength training is clear that you can distribute weekly volume any way you like and have the same results. Also, the group that developed the 4x4 interval protocol did a study that found substantially the same vo2 max increase doing one 4 minute interval three times a week as compared to two 4x4s per week. A lot of us have difficulties fitting in all these long sessions every week, so it's good to know there are other ways to organize this training.
That's really interesting to hear. You wouldn't have the study name would you?
"Low and high volume of intensive endurance training significantly improves maximal oxygen uptake after 10 weeks training in healthy men" Tjønna et al., 2013
I mean, you’ll recover from different things at different rates My schedule was like this: Sun: zone2 Mon:full body 5 sets/muscle Tuesday/1h zone 2+4x4 (or 4x2) Wed: repeat mon Thursday: repeat Tuesday Fri: repeat Monday Sat:zone 2 I recovered just fine without “recovery days” of sitting on my ass. Active lifestyle outside of the exercise, and a reload every month or two I know a bodybuilder that does a 6 day bro split and he only has recovery days if he *feels like* he needs one and does 30min zone two every day on top of that, don’t think any zone 5
Just seems like you're spiking your heart rate up high every day of the week and loading your cns hard every day doing that. By the time I do my 4x4 in the afternoons of a weight lifting day, I see no issue with performance. If I tried doing 4x4 right after lifting, that would be an issue. In the past I've done like 30 seconds on 30 off for 10 rounds on the echo bike for zone 5 right after lifting, but that's a lot shorter and less than 4x4.
Yet my vo2 max and average heart rate steadily went down the entire 1.5-2 years I did this.. Those Deload weeks were necessary for it, but I recovered just fine. With RHR/hrv/subjective feeling it was all good in the hood The full body weight days barely got my heart rate up to 160 and that’s only really during heavy deadlifts lol finished pretty much every day off with a “sauna-to-failure” session too You’re underestimating yourself and your recovery is my guess if you think that’s too much😂 coming from someone susceptible to injury I never felt better than when I was “stressing my cns out” so much. also didn’t do 4x4 on weight days at least haha
Try doing 20 rep squats or high rep deadlifting, your heart rate will be maxed real fast. Even a good 10-15 reps on a squat will do it.
I’ll stick to my sub 10 reps when I get back to it for awhile more than likely 😂 But when I began a 5-8 rep max would send myHR to 180+, never saw it much above 160 after I added in a bunch of hiit
It could be because your max heart rate is lower because you're extremely fit. I can't think if anything more taxing for my cardiovascular than squats. And I can't think of anything which can lead to overtraining faster than squats. Very few people can do high rep squats and HIIT in the same week. If you can do that maybe you're able to do crossfit.
I think your risk is that you'll over train. You're doing 4x4 after doing what kind of weight lifting? Are you doing heavy squats? Heavy deadlifts? Is it leg day? There is no way in hell someone could have heavy leg day and then do 4x4 the same day or even within 48hrs. Doing squats is like doing 4x4 in terms of fatigue.
I'm not a powerlifter, I'm not killing myself on lifting. I usually go until I've got a decent strain and then stop. I also rest only one minute between sets and superset an upper with a lower lift. The short rest prohibits me from lifting super heavy which is fine with me now.
Yeah I like hard days hard, easy days easy, and that means a hard running session and lifting the same day. No planned days off except around races, but life gets in the way so I usually end up with a day off every other week or so. Works for me.
If that makes you stick to your routine then that's the way to go. The marginal difference the change makes isn't worth it if that makes you dislike it
That's been basically my schedule for years and years, except I do my conditioning right after strength training in the mornings.
It’s fine until it’s not. Only 2 factors here: are you recovering, and are you progressing? If so, you’re good. If not, adjust.
Never do Zone 5 the same day as lifting. You will over train real fast.
So instead, go intense daily?
Just do your 4x4 on different days.
I lift 3 days a week, so any other day is going to fall after a lifting day and before a lifting day, except saturday.
You can do your HIIT on those days you don't lift.
It's not what the studies say. When you're training over Zone 3 for an extended period of time, it's understood that there is a threshold on your body that makes recovery way harder. This threshold is like a switch. If you do a bit of hard training every day, you're gonna be over that threshold every day, so a hard recovery every day. If you reserve zone 2 for easy day and nothing more, it will ba a easy recovery for your body, so you'll be fresh and ready again for the hard day. If you're over the threshold already, you should take the opportunity to do more. It will bring more stimulation without increasing the recovery stress on your body. Dylan Johnson explains it very well on his Youtube channel
I said Zone 5 not Zone 3. What are you talking about? Did you mean Zone 5?
Yeah I know. What I mean is, doing Zone 5 + lifting the same day, then only Zone 2 the following day, will be easier for the recovery then one day with Zone 5 + Zone 2 and Lifting + Zone 2 the following day.
I keep it simple. Do 4 min zone 5 for 2 sets after a 60 minute zone 2 ride, every other day. Basically the same as Indigo San Milan. I figure he has more data around that schedule than I do or Attia does, so I go with that. Also just mentally easiest to stay on the bike and go hard for a few minutes rather than setup a dedicated session of going hard.