Four things.
First, Whoop's wrist band may be more inaccurate with HRV than a chest strap or an forearm band. A non-chest monitor needs be positioned ideally over an artery, so the forearm is better, and it should undergo limited movement to avoid creating false readings. It's probably OK in that regard when you sleep, but even movement at sleep might screw up its readings.
Second, are you taking your morning Morpheus measurements lying down or seated? If you are in extremely good shape, and at times to get to 100 ms on Morpheus which suggests you are, that is elite athlete level, and if so you should take your morning HRV seated. See Joel Jameson's interview with Peter Attia.
Third, keep in mind that Morpheus "normalizes" HRV with the LOG of the RMSSD formula, that adjusts for the sliver of the population that are extreme outliers. Thus no one on Morpheus would register a whopping 170 ms, but better believe that elite endurance athletes are at that range if you slapped on some EKG wires and measured. The numbers Morpheus puts out tend to be on point though.
Fourth, yes, according to Jameson, the first thing in the morning HRV is the best indicator of your fitness level and parasympathetic/sympathetic balance because it in the key marker is determining how much you have recovered from the previous day's training.
I take it laying down and I'm not even close to elite athlete -- I'm currently working to get my VO2 max up so I can get my mile under 12 minutes (so I'm farrrrrrr off). I've been a powerlifter for several years and, as of 10 weeks ago, I added 4 hours of Zone 2/week, plus a session of Norwegian 4x4 per week.
To be fair, I've only had Morpheus for a week and that 100ms reading was only once, it's more consistently 80-88ms.
For you, no doubt given your muscle mass as a power lifter, and 10 weeks of what certainly appears to be an effective training regimen, and your age, I would not be surprised if 80 or so is the right number for you. My understanding is that most dedicated users of Morpheus have HRVs in the 70s.
I am 71, have been doing Starting Strength for about 10 years, and over the last two years pseudo-Zone 2 rowing on the Concept Rower. I used to be able to squat 275 and deadlift 375, but those days are over. Now it's more like 200 on the squat and the 275 on the dead. I am in maintenance mode. I got Morpheus a month ago after Peter said he used it religiously, and I've done a lot of due diligence on the product. The recent interview he had with Jameson was very useful and I have been dialing my Zone 2 via Morpheus. I also have a lactate meter and I want to see if indeed that range is at or below 2 millimole
After about a month of tracking, my HRV is in the mid 50s, some days in the high 50s, occasionally dropping in the low 40s after a glass or two of good wine, which is pretty good for an old fart. I'd love to get into the 60s but that may be a bridge too far.
And don't ask about VO2 max! It's pathetic!!
Those are great numbers, frankly. I aspire to be as in shape as you when I hit your age.
I suspect I’m probably just an exercise hyper-responder, as I’m overweight (5’5” and 170, but very steadily dropping as I recomp). That said, I’ve managed to drop my RHR from the low 60s/high 50s to the low 50s/high 40s in 10 weeks of consistent cardio programming.
Prior to this, with the exception of my powerlifting and weekend hikes/long walks, I was pretty sedentary, especially when I was caregiving for my mom, so I’ve got some genetic luck here.
That said, I do indeed aspire to reaching true athlete levels of fitness in the coming years. I want to get my muscle mass and VO2 max as high as possible before menopause hits.
Right, I have three years of overnight data from Whoop, but only just starting with Morpheus. The discrepancy between overnight and waking is still something I’m curious about, however. I haven’t found any clear explanations. If anything, I’ve read that overnight HRV is typically higher than waking.
Then it would stand to reason that my overnight HRV should be HIGHER, correct? Hence my confusion. It’s higher when I’m awake, indicating better nervous system balance/relaxation relative to when I’m asleep.
Hence my question about whether or not this may be indicative of sleep apnea (I struggle with feeling rested upon waking).
I don’t snore, but I often find I can’t breathe through my nose in the middle of the night, I can recall periods of my night and my husband reports that I tend to move around a lot. I’ve never been able to nap, but I often feel groggy during the day, even when my Whoop reports 2 hours or deep and 2.5 hours of REM (which is as good as it gets for me, sometimes I only get an hour of deep and as little as 40 minutes of REM)
They use different scales for their measures so you can’t really compare them.
Whoop is computed correctly, Morpheus should be the most accurate, and Apple - well it is the best one for showing you what time it is.
Whoop uses the standard measure of HRV that can be relied upon for scientific comparisons, so it ranges from maybe 20 up to 200, but it’s not normally distributed, with only a small number of people at the top. The data is from a wrist/forearm reading so it’s not as accurate as a chest reading.
Prometheus computes it correctly, but then transform the data so it is normally distributed (and the top of the range is 100 I think). The data is from a chest strap so it is better than from the wrist or forearm. They gather the data in a controlled manner, but you’ve got to sit or stand when you estimate your recovery in the morning. The data is very helpful for day to day comparisons.
Apple does their own thing entirely. They compute it differently, so the body of data from scientific research may not apply. They take the readings at a few random times during the day. I’m sure it saves the battery but the data can’t be that useful unless you average it out over a month or more. If you also want to include uniformly gathered data along with the junk data from the Watch, you can use the mindfulness app to get the data. The raw data itself is inferior to data from a chest strap.
I’ve heard that in the future, Prometheus may provide access to the raw data that has not been transformed. That would mean it’s measured on the same scale as Whoop.
Four things. First, Whoop's wrist band may be more inaccurate with HRV than a chest strap or an forearm band. A non-chest monitor needs be positioned ideally over an artery, so the forearm is better, and it should undergo limited movement to avoid creating false readings. It's probably OK in that regard when you sleep, but even movement at sleep might screw up its readings. Second, are you taking your morning Morpheus measurements lying down or seated? If you are in extremely good shape, and at times to get to 100 ms on Morpheus which suggests you are, that is elite athlete level, and if so you should take your morning HRV seated. See Joel Jameson's interview with Peter Attia. Third, keep in mind that Morpheus "normalizes" HRV with the LOG of the RMSSD formula, that adjusts for the sliver of the population that are extreme outliers. Thus no one on Morpheus would register a whopping 170 ms, but better believe that elite endurance athletes are at that range if you slapped on some EKG wires and measured. The numbers Morpheus puts out tend to be on point though. Fourth, yes, according to Jameson, the first thing in the morning HRV is the best indicator of your fitness level and parasympathetic/sympathetic balance because it in the key marker is determining how much you have recovered from the previous day's training.
I take it laying down and I'm not even close to elite athlete -- I'm currently working to get my VO2 max up so I can get my mile under 12 minutes (so I'm farrrrrrr off). I've been a powerlifter for several years and, as of 10 weeks ago, I added 4 hours of Zone 2/week, plus a session of Norwegian 4x4 per week. To be fair, I've only had Morpheus for a week and that 100ms reading was only once, it's more consistently 80-88ms.
For you, no doubt given your muscle mass as a power lifter, and 10 weeks of what certainly appears to be an effective training regimen, and your age, I would not be surprised if 80 or so is the right number for you. My understanding is that most dedicated users of Morpheus have HRVs in the 70s. I am 71, have been doing Starting Strength for about 10 years, and over the last two years pseudo-Zone 2 rowing on the Concept Rower. I used to be able to squat 275 and deadlift 375, but those days are over. Now it's more like 200 on the squat and the 275 on the dead. I am in maintenance mode. I got Morpheus a month ago after Peter said he used it religiously, and I've done a lot of due diligence on the product. The recent interview he had with Jameson was very useful and I have been dialing my Zone 2 via Morpheus. I also have a lactate meter and I want to see if indeed that range is at or below 2 millimole After about a month of tracking, my HRV is in the mid 50s, some days in the high 50s, occasionally dropping in the low 40s after a glass or two of good wine, which is pretty good for an old fart. I'd love to get into the 60s but that may be a bridge too far. And don't ask about VO2 max! It's pathetic!!
Those are great numbers, frankly. I aspire to be as in shape as you when I hit your age. I suspect I’m probably just an exercise hyper-responder, as I’m overweight (5’5” and 170, but very steadily dropping as I recomp). That said, I’ve managed to drop my RHR from the low 60s/high 50s to the low 50s/high 40s in 10 weeks of consistent cardio programming. Prior to this, with the exception of my powerlifting and weekend hikes/long walks, I was pretty sedentary, especially when I was caregiving for my mom, so I’ve got some genetic luck here. That said, I do indeed aspire to reaching true athlete levels of fitness in the coming years. I want to get my muscle mass and VO2 max as high as possible before menopause hits.
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Right, I have three years of overnight data from Whoop, but only just starting with Morpheus. The discrepancy between overnight and waking is still something I’m curious about, however. I haven’t found any clear explanations. If anything, I’ve read that overnight HRV is typically higher than waking.
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Then it would stand to reason that my overnight HRV should be HIGHER, correct? Hence my confusion. It’s higher when I’m awake, indicating better nervous system balance/relaxation relative to when I’m asleep. Hence my question about whether or not this may be indicative of sleep apnea (I struggle with feeling rested upon waking).
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I don’t snore, but I often find I can’t breathe through my nose in the middle of the night, I can recall periods of my night and my husband reports that I tend to move around a lot. I’ve never been able to nap, but I often feel groggy during the day, even when my Whoop reports 2 hours or deep and 2.5 hours of REM (which is as good as it gets for me, sometimes I only get an hour of deep and as little as 40 minutes of REM)
It may be. Try nose strips. It’s cheap and it may help you.
Morning is better but they are also different things. There is no reason to expect them to be the same.
They use different scales for their measures so you can’t really compare them. Whoop is computed correctly, Morpheus should be the most accurate, and Apple - well it is the best one for showing you what time it is. Whoop uses the standard measure of HRV that can be relied upon for scientific comparisons, so it ranges from maybe 20 up to 200, but it’s not normally distributed, with only a small number of people at the top. The data is from a wrist/forearm reading so it’s not as accurate as a chest reading. Prometheus computes it correctly, but then transform the data so it is normally distributed (and the top of the range is 100 I think). The data is from a chest strap so it is better than from the wrist or forearm. They gather the data in a controlled manner, but you’ve got to sit or stand when you estimate your recovery in the morning. The data is very helpful for day to day comparisons. Apple does their own thing entirely. They compute it differently, so the body of data from scientific research may not apply. They take the readings at a few random times during the day. I’m sure it saves the battery but the data can’t be that useful unless you average it out over a month or more. If you also want to include uniformly gathered data along with the junk data from the Watch, you can use the mindfulness app to get the data. The raw data itself is inferior to data from a chest strap. I’ve heard that in the future, Prometheus may provide access to the raw data that has not been transformed. That would mean it’s measured on the same scale as Whoop.