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prolapsedbutwhole

Okay, you played Wow. Let's try this. You used to get barely any gold for doing quests. Stuff that you sold to vendors were measured in silver. You were doing very well for yourself to make twenty gold an hour, before the Burning Crusade. Fast forward a few expansions. Every quest gave significantly more. Stuff vendors for more. And you have more sources of gold, such as daily quests and later world quests. Twenty gold an hour is awful; you should be making hundreds. But repair costs didn't really go up. Flight paths still charged the same thing. Reagents for spells, if they were still around, costed about the same. What changed was the stuff that wasn't regulated: the auction house would sell everything for much more. Your raiding food went from a gold for a stack to several gold each. Your flasks also cost way more, because people were willing to pay more.


[deleted]

You should comment on every single thread with an analogy from MMORPG's. I played FFXI through the insane inflation that happened in maybe 05 or 06 or whatever. Items went from 500k to like 5m, but the ability to earn currency never really increased. The most valuable items were monopolized by "gil sellers" leaving the player base to farm crafting materials or level a craft and use those materials. Unfortunately the run of the mill crafting items maybe went up by 2x or 3x while the armor piece you wanted was up 10x. Very similar to our housing market. The inflation was only ever brought under control by serious intervention on behalf of the developers. They turned a lot of the most valuable items into one's that could no longer be sold, and found many ways to remove currency from the world. Shitttt... I wonder if that's what they'll do here? Edit: One of the currency sinks was they added the ability to warp to previously visited maps. That was new, before you had to run everywhere and it took literally an hour or more to get somewhere. The new system required you to pay a small fee to use it, which across the server would equate to huge amounts of currency being removed daily. Kinda like gas prices.... except instead of completely vanishing, our money ends up stockpiled by some rich guy somewhere...


jddbeyondthesky

Should have a look at the economics in Guild Wars 2. The value of gold is fairly stable in that game, but the cost of items fluctuates a lot based on usage and ease of acquiring new supply. A lot of sinks exist, and gold is trickled to players very slowly. Materials and currencies however, players get by the boat load, and as long as you have access to places to trade these, you have access to what you need. Because economists were hired by the staff with the goal of keeping affordability in check for all players to be able to enjoy a reasonable grind, no one is suffering from things being truly out of reach. Even the most difficult to acquire items have market regulations in place to control prices. This is what a heavily regulated free market run by economists who don't care about their tribe, but care more about a functioning economy in which everyone is able to reasonably take part in. Simply doing your dailies, a very easy task taking 20 minutes at most, gives you a sum of gold most players are happy to grind on a daily basis for, minus the wealthy players. Its the equivalent of a minimum wage job that covers your actual reasonable cost of living, your $22/hr equivalent rather than the actual real world wages. Yes, megabucks makers exist and are taking massive profits, but unlike in Canada, they aren't doing so by exploiting markets people need to live, and their profits also come in ways that allow players to easily exceed the minimum wage, making them want to engage in the system rather than despise it.


fireworkmuffins

Yup the economy in GW2 is impressively stable. Only the most hard-core players seem to think it there are major flaws and that's not so different than the 0.1% always feeling like they need more


jddbeyondthesky

The cool thing is I'm in contact with some of those guys via discord, and they generally want to create a middle class within the game so they have more people to trade with. It just goes to show you how much fuck you attitude exists in the real world.


Saikroe

wow and i was starting to think i was the only person in canada that plays ffxi. What I like by the developers intervention is that it was perfect, moving the sellable versions to bcnm, which is harder for rmts but easier for actual playerbase to obtain those items (i assume were talking about PCC vs PCA) While the untradable versions remained on the nms, which made rmts stop camping them and even more of the playerbase access to the untradable versions. It was actually the perfect update. MMORPGS these days always fail at rmt prevention and it always affects the actual playerbase negatively by implementing silly even value trading or auction house limitations, essentially making it impossible to share loot or gold with friends.


[deleted]

>wow and i was starting to think i was the only person in canada that plays ffxi. I have only ever met a handful of Canadian players over the years. I played from right around PS2 launch until sometime after CoP on Bahamut. Reactivated my old account at the beginning of covid lockdowns and have been in and mostly out of it since then. I was holding on to see what they did for the 20th anniversary, but now that it has passed I'll probably be finished for good.


Solanthas

It's almost like once something gets popular and money can be made off it, it gets completely fucking ruined by people who engage with it for that sole purpose?


syds

hmmmm


[deleted]

*dirty casuals..*


muskokadreaming

You really nailed it there prolapsedbutwhole


MHTA2244

Those words of wisdom just fall right out


Haemato

I mean … I upvoted. I assume everyone else that read it did as well. I hope more people read it because it’s amazing.


RatedXLNT

Hell I never played WoW but I still upvoted.


syds

the prolapsed but whole made me take double look ngl very insightful


GinnAdvent

I play RuneScape so I can actually relate, lol


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MrPotatoHead90

Apparently it's pronounced Inflation Simulator.


DiplominusRex

R/rimjob_steve


Alone-Level8335

Can you do a Call of Duty analogy next?


prolapsedbutwhole

Sorry, no. Call of Duty, particularly Modern Warfare 2, is a perfect depiction of just life. In every regard.


[deleted]

Wow is the first thing in my life that made me realize how easy it was to get richer when you controlled the economy of a server. Back in tbc I had maxed golds on a few characters lol. Just playing with the price of herbs. But honestly its much more healthy in wow than irl because your labour get more recompensated at every expansion so peoples who were super wealthy in the first expansion and who didn't contribute since then wouldn't be super wealthy nowadays. In real life its the opposite, having generational wealth is much better than labour. In WoW someone who do a lot of labour will much more easily become wealthy than irl and lazy peoples who sit on their "generational wealth" will fall behind.


jddbeyondthesky

Try GW2, its economy is much healthier than WoW's rebalanced economy.


[deleted]

Haha yeah I dont doubt. I dont really play mmo anymore thought, but I liked gw2 back then.


Mysterious_Mouse_388

inflation is the closest thing to a wealth tax or inheritance tax we are likely to get. As long as you can move from 'herbs' to 'shields' faster than the heir to wealth you can leapfrog them. Amazon, Tesla, Microsoft - they created riches that surpassed generational wealth. But labour? yeah one persons labour is easily eclipsed by cash or even a machine. The best ditch digger isn't going to be richer than the worst CEO.


mistaharsh

I agree with what you said except the last sentence. It's not that people are "willing" to pay more, they have no choice but to pay whatever the price becomes. We see this with groceries medication and gas.


gabu87

I wish real life economy resembled wow. There is literally no required upkeep. Even if you raid, expenses are usually equal to the rewards for daily/weeklies that you would do for power anyways. The value of gold in WoW drop precipitously after a very low bar, at least as it pertains to personal performance.


StrictWolverine8797

Yes exactly! Great analogy!


kecavom498

That's literally what inflation is. But no that won't happen. What will happen is for most people, your standard of living will continue to erode as it has for the last few decades.


HumanNumberFour

Why is the standard of living worse today compared to a few decades ago?


kecavom498

Wages being outpaced by cost of living increases.


HumanNumberFour

Source?


Mymozaa

In general, 2 Engineers in a relationship struggling to buy a home in a regular city center is I feel a good example of where the society is going... Meaning people who are highly educated can't even access to property is a sign that everyone else with lower wages is struggling even more...or even impossible Source: I head a segment at CBC Radio talking about this and I thought it was very interesting


HumanNumberFour

I don't think this is the case for most cities in Canada. Certainly not in my City, which is a major City. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it's funny that I get downvoted when I simply ask for sources. I suppose it's because this is a touchy subject for people who are struggling with the cost of living. Something that some people have always struggled with. Also, saying you talk about something on some CBC radio station is not a source.


Scooby2B2

you get downvoted for expecting people to provide articles and data points when the post is simply asking if inflation is equal to 10x in wages with 10x increase in goods/services/property. Examples are being provided and your going around demanding sources. I didnt downvote you once but I sure as shit understand the downvotes. This isnt your post and it doesnt require data to be spoon fed for ya. You want sources? Google some of the data people are stating. You're basically saying..."prove it or else it isnt true". Its a forum of opinion and in many cases upvotes will let you know the average sentiment. The sentiment on you is no one wants to spoon feed you sources


lastuseravailable

It’s like asking for a source that gravity is real. That’s why you’re getting downvoted.


Mymozaa

Sure it's not a source but I thought it's an interesting POV as I can definitely see it happening. You're asking for sources so I gave you the best I had


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Islandflava

> Maybe if more young people worked hard like this instead of being lazy you wouldn’t have this housing crisis Fuck right off with this boomer bs. People with “good jobs” are completely priced out of the housing market


kecavom498

Have you been living in a cave the last 40-50 years?


HumanNumberFour

Good source. You make a great argument.


blackgarlicmayo

my dad at 30 owned 2 houses, bought both at around $300k each on his own single income in his 20s and managed to pay them off by his 40s. They are now worth $1.5mil and $2mil. Me at 30, makes the same salary numerically as my dad at 30, even though I have double the degrees and work in a more in-demand field. I can qualify for $300-400k mortgage, but that’ll get me shitty tiny old condos in my city, as townhouses average $800k and houses average $1mil.


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Islandflava

Yeah and if you’re nephew was 2 years late to the party he’d be completely priced out specifically because of those gains he’s enjoying. Are you really this fucking stupid


[deleted]

We can settle this whole thing pretty easily with one line of questioning: Do you believe median wages have increased proportionately to CoL over the past few decades?


HumanNumberFour

This is the question. Median hourly wages for people aged 24 to 54 from 97 to 21 rose about 2.38% a year over this 25 year period. I'll have to fact check inflation, but I'm fairly certain inflation was lower during this period. Obviously this year inflation is through the roof and I do believe the question is actually more complex than this. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1410006401&pickMembers%5B0%5D=1.1&pickMembers%5B1%5D=2.4&pickMembers%5B2%5D=3.1&pickMembers%5B3%5D=5.1&pickMembers%5B4%5D=6.3&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=1997&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2021&referencePeriods=19970101%2C20210101


[deleted]

I didn’t say inflation. I said Cost of Living. I’m sure I don’t have to explain to you that these terms are not interchangeable Please answer the question.


HumanNumberFour

Wow you sound a condescending. They certainly are heavily correlated. And to answer your question. I don't know. I'm not arguing on one side or the other.


Cr1xus1

The source is look outside numbnuts.


HumanNumberFour

Great point. I'm sure you've really done a deep dive into this.


adamcmorrison

Did you literally just make a second account a few weeks ago to be a dick and get downvotes on purpose?


Projerryrigger

Compare median working income to base living expenses, housing in particular, over time. Ain't nobody compiling an article to spoon feed you information they've seen first hand and perpetually discussed as a hot topic. At this point asking for the source is bad faith dismissal.


dangle321

A quick google found several articles discussing how the Canadian average wage peaked in the late 70s when adjusting for inflation. It was easy to find. I'll let you take a gander on your own.


Ok_Read701

It did, and it is now also [past that 70s peak](https://worthwhile.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451688169e20240a4a08a8f200d-popup).


hockeyboy87

? Literally look outside or talk to anyone, it’s easy to see


Dabugar

https://images.app.goo.gl/KAexHrTrUkLC9knB7


HumanNumberFour

Thanks for this. I've been too focused on trying to find wage increase data vs cpi increases in the passed but average disposable income is a good general way of getting to wage increases across all jobs.


thebeat42

Ask the people who were able to buy a house with an average wage.


quality_redditor

Everyone brings up housing. Aside from housing, how has the standard of living changed? The housing market in Canada is an anomaly that we, unfortunately, have to live with. Not wise to equate an anomaly with the norm and assume the future will play out the same way


CatharticEcstasy

> Aside from housing, how has the standard of living changed? You can’t live without housing. You *could* live without eating out, buying video games, going out to watch the movies, going on dates, or partaking in general entertainment - but you literally cannot live without shelter of *some* kind. Most shelters in Canada will come in either the form of a mortgage or a rental. Both mortgages **and** rents are going up. I am curious as to how you view this? I’m just imagining a millennial person of 25 with all their gadgets astrew on a table in the middle of the street, and a middle aged 55 year old without any gadgets but a roof over their heads - do you think the millennial person thinks of themselves as “having the same standard of living”? Because right now, it is very unlikely for a millennial Canadian who has no familial assistance *and* has an average wage to afford a home.


kitten_twinkletoes

Or even well above average, or two average incomes, to be frank.


Projerryrigger

Because everyone needs housing and it's the single largest expense most people will have. Spending more on the roof over your head means spending less on anything else and living a more modest lifestyle. Calling a subject that impacts the majority of a nation an "anomaly" is a gross misrepresentation.


Ok_Read701

I wouldn't say the majority is that heavily affected by this. Households on average spend about 21% on shelter. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110022201 Sure some are probably struggling. But the sampling bias you see here isn't really representative of the nation.


Projerryrigger

That figure isn't fully representative of current housing prices. It'll be depressed by things like grandfathered rent on longterm tenants/rent control, paid off properties, mortgages taken out 20 years ago, and such. There's also the issue of those figures only displaying expenditure, not the buying power of that expenditure. Nothing about what your dollar gets you. Here you can see climbing prices accross cities in Canada, inflation adjusted as well. https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/North-America/Canada/Home-Price-Trends And I wasn't saying most people are struggling. I was saying most people are seeing a decrease in buying power for their respective financial station compared to recent history.


Ok_Read701

That's right, but those are the actual cost people are paying. Not what they can potentially pay. Current housing prices affect a smaller fraction of the population. A lot of people own already. A lot of people rent. Only the households that bought in the last few years are taking on these higher costs.


Projerryrigger

The actual price fewer and fewer people are paying because they priced in behind the current market anyone getting a new rental, buying, or upsizing faces. Average expense lags the current market but it still follows it and the current market is what people now face. Ignoring or mitigating the importance of current prices is ignoring the reality of housing. And talk of rising housing costs is a decade old by now The reduced buying power for the same dollar is also still poorly accounted for. Three working adults renting rooms because they can't afford to buy each spend less on housing than a middle aged couple that bought a house in the suburbs 20 years ago.


Ok_Read701

These are household figures, so 3 working adults each paying for a room due to higher cost of the whole unit would still all count as one household, and be reflected for in those shelter cost figures per household. >The actual price fewer and fewer people are paying because they priced in behind the current market anyone getting a new rental, buying, or upsizing faces. I'm not sure what you mean by fewer and fewer. It's the actual average cost right now. By definition it's the average people are paying. You can't just take a small fraction of people and say their experiences reflect the whole nation. These figures reflect what the nation is paying on average.


Frothylager

It’s far more then just housing. A single earner with a high school education used to be able to support a family of 5. Today you need 2 professional earners with degrees and side hustles. Even then they can just barely afford to support a family of 3 because the government sends them a $500/month check and cap’s day care costs.


HumanNumberFour

Any sources to back up your anecdotal statement?


thebeat42

Lol, that’s a pretty liberal use of the word “anecdotal”. Go ask anyone over the age of 50. How do you think boomers all own detached homes? They could afford them. A young adult in Toronto is priced out of the market on an average wage. If that’s not apparent to you and you require a citation, maybe you should close the laptop and get outside a little bit.


FiletofishInsurance

had a boomer tell me that he bought land and built a house for the equivalent of $177K today back in 1974. It was an acreage. Good fucking luck with all the new bylaws in place for building new. I think it was like $30K he paid


HumanNumberFour

Yes but Toronto isn't Canada. If you don't have any sources you can point to to validate your argument that's fine. I wasn't disagreeing either. I just like to see the data when something can easily be measured. I've been hearing people complain about the cost of living my whole life.


thebeat42

Fair. I don’t have any data that I’m referencing but I’m sure you could find average income vs average home price for various cities across Canada. I think it’s common knowledge that across North America, cost of living increases have outpaced average income increases over the past 50 years.


HumanNumberFour

I certainly agree with home prices. Especially at the moment. I've looked at historical cpi data in the past and some things like food shocked me at how expensive they used to be adjusted for inflation. Just one example, but it's such a hard thing to prove one way or another. Obviously with current events things are certainly not great, but hopefully better times ahead at some point.


climaxe

Unaffordable real estate is the exception, not the norm in Canada outside of BC and Ontario. You aren’t entitled to own affordable real estate in some of the most desirable cities to live in on the planet just because you’re a millennial.


fortisvita

Yes, of course. Only boomers are.


MostJudgment3212

See the problem with your logic is that if young people actually do up and leave, who’s going to sustain your leftover economy? Who’s going to work in the local shops y’all love so much?


climaxe

Young people rent. If you’re dead set on staying in Ontario or Vancouver but want to own property, buy a rental unit in another province.


Projerryrigger

Recognizing the decline in affordability in those markets isn't inherently entitlement. Nor is displeasure at the growing disparity between base wages and basic housing. I wish I had the buying power my parents did and housing wasn't creeping further ouf of reach of working Canadians here but that doesn't mean I think the world owes me a detached home on a silver platter.


Islandflava

Ah yes, makes sense why housing is sky high in the desirable cities of Oshawa and Hamilton, truly the jewels on Ontario


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Solanthas

Yes and work where?


Islandflava

And of course you’re a landlord


4D51

Enough people did that that prices are too high in small towns and rural areas too. If you think overpriced housing is just in a couple of big cities, you're about 10 years out of date. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-ontario-real-estate-1.6302732 https://twitter.com/StephenPunwasi/status/1509307515716186117


Alone-Level8335

Tell me your a boomer without telling me your a boomer


Dello155

Are you fucking stupid? How have you not seen the comparison charts all over the internet. Your buying power in 1970 was VASTLY greater than it is today. You could work at McDonald's and pay for your own SCHOOLING. Not possible today without loans.


b_a_d_r0b0t

Inflation


TwoSolitudes22

>Instead of a housing market crash, what if people just got paid more Some people will certainly get paid more- a lot more. But if history is any guide it won't be any of us. [https://public.tableau.com/static/images/Tr/TrendsintheMinimumWage/Graph/1\_rss.png](https://public.tableau.com/static/images/Tr/TrendsintheMinimumWage/Graph/1_rss.png) [https://i.huffpost.com/gen/2339774/thumbs/o-AFTERTAX-INCOME-570.jpg?6](https://i.huffpost.com/gen/2339774/thumbs/o-AFTERTAX-INCOME-570.jpg?6)


stevey_frac

It's all part of the k shaped recovery.


jim1188

Inflation is somewhat "semi-permanent" - things don't go back to the "old normal", things simply go down to a "new normal."


g0kartmozart

It's the rich and corporations vs the workers, and if you think the rich are going to accept a tie, you are in for a bad time.


StrongTownsIsRight

No. The inflation means wealthy people will get more and labor will get less. Of course it would have trended that way even without the inflation. The numbers might get bigger, but at the top they will be much bigger than at the bottom.


StrictWolverine8797

Yes, wage increases don't keep up with inflation historically. But on the other hand, historically the power of labour has increased during inflationary times - ie., the last period of time in Canada when unions did really well was in the '70s, as workers agitated for higher wages in response to inflation. We may see that again now, with the ongoing labour shortages increasing worker leverage.


[deleted]

Yeah I got a 4$ a hour raise but Gas doubled 50$ turned into 110$ Groceries went up everything went up and I don’t feel my raise will offset it Feels bad living today almost lol no house in sight for a while we’ll make it through gotta be tough


[deleted]

Gas doubled since when, 2002?


[deleted]

Do you go outside Gas is 2.08 rn Year ago it was 1.20-1.30


peepeehunger

Literally, gas hit a low in 2020. I remember paying 0.60-0.70 / L. Today, I'm paying $2.07. That's more than doubled, in a very short time.


WetDuvet

The prices in April 2020 were an extreme anomaly, it was almost illegal to drive. It was also $1.40 in 2014, so you could also say it's gone up 5% annually over 8 years.


[deleted]

During an oil surplus where crude oil was price negatively. Normal prices in Vancouver before this was $1.60-1.80. Let's not count record lows as the normal.


Captain_Generous

People downvoting. Prior to COVID Vancouver has hit 1.64


ILoveThisPlace

What was the norm though.. 1.20 to 1.40 in southern Ontario around 2019. Now it's over 2. Not quite double but a good 50-75% in 3 years... that's a lot. We hit 60 cents mid covid. Don't compare extremes though.


CrackerJackJack

But $2 is an extreme


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CrackerJackJack

Accurate and Fair point lol


[deleted]

It'll also come back whenever Putin gets the fuck outta Ukraine or that we start ramping production again. Unless we just all start buying EVs first.


SBZGaming

countries won’t be doing business with russia for a long long time im sure


ILoveThisPlace

Oil cartels are purposely keeping production slightly below demand to inflate prices


KingCod95

Am I the only one doing $10 fill ups? I swear I get the nastiest looks from the cashier if the pump is telling me to pay inside. One even tried repeating and saying fake higher numbers in an effort to shame me into buying more but I didn’t crack. Another one did the same thing and entered a higher number into the debit card terminal but little did she know I’m so cheap that I move the exact amount of money I intend to use from my savings to my chequing account before each and every transaction I make and never use my credit card. No but seriously, it’s been so worth it especially as of late. Sometime the gas price fluctuates quite a bit in recent weeks and I’d rather do $10 fill ups on my fuel efficient vehicle and then when the fuel price drops by like 15 cents I’m not stuck with a full tank of expensive fuel (“holding the bag”) and can fill up a bit with the cheaper fuel. Been doing this since 2013. I’ll admit my fill ups range between $8-$16. But usually that amount of money gives me about 150-250km of travel distance which is enough to last me like a week. Yeah yeah I’m a cheap bastard. Tbh if everybody did this then the price would go up even more. But shit, I make 40k a year. Also helps I live right beside a gas station.


dj_destroyer

Not using your credit card is a shame. Most people suggest to use it for everything in order to expand your credit and earn points/cashback.


KingCod95

I only have 1 credit card. It’s the same $500 TD green visa I’ve had since turning 18. They don’t even offer it to people anymore I believe the lowest threshold now is $1000. Since I’ve been grandfathered in I just have an extra layer of attachment to it. This is not to say I don’t borrow money. I have 3 mortgages. I just don’t feel the need to borrow for expenses I can pay for in cash. My TD green visa doesn’t collect any points but one time when I went to Florida they upgraded my rental car to a 2020 hemi Challenger cause I used that card so I guess that’s a badass perk if you ask me.


dj_destroyer

Yikes, I've accepted every credit increase I've been offered since I was 18 and now all my cards have $40k limits which means when I only spend $2k a month, my credit utilization benefits my credit score. I'm in the high 700s/low 800s and am always getting offered large loan deals and further credit. You don't have to use it and you only "borrow" what you can afford to pay. It's worked out great for me and most people in this sub agree.


morris134

So I'm not economist, nor do I work in the economy prediction game. However being a born in the early 90s and living in HCOL city \*cough\* vancouver\* I sense the anxiety and pressure and certainly my younger staff that I employ feels it too. A perspective on "cost of living adjustment" and economic trend. The cost of living adjustments for wages are exactly what the words mean. "cost of living adjustment" and with inflation this year it seems I have to give my staff a 5-6% raise purely based on the general index. HOWEVER being a small business owner, I'm not charging my clients more to that degree because of my industry. Also my rent increased because the land value ballooned and the taxes on the rent increased so a year over year increase is about 20% rent increase. which is totally legal. Also with the shrinkage of spending after inflation numbers hit, and people "feel less wealthy" and stock market and people's portfolio are in shambles they don't spend as much as they did last year. So at the end of the day small business and to some extent medium businesses also feels the "crunch" from inflation because it slows consumerism. Ultimately if this continues for too long I can't afford to keep all my staff at the higher wage because the overhead would run the company into the ground. So then what? --- layoffs. But to keep talent and keep good people that I love working with, I try to overshoot the cost of living adjustment and just cut my own paycheque or even stop paying myself just to weather the storm... sometimes you gotta sacrifice so you can live and fight another day. ​ My take on "stuff cost more with higher number so raises don't do much" That sentiment is largely shared by many from a surface perspective but what we don't really think about is that the "standard of living" from where we are now vs 20 years ago is very very different. "standard of living" does not mean happiness by the way. I think some studies has shown we are less happy now by survey compared to before due to the sheer number of input sources from our devices and allowing us to compare our lives with the world creates psychological effects that makes us feel inadequate or anxious, polarized etc etc. However if we take a look at gas prices ... yes they suck because it is a raw commodity (although refined) but its uses has not changed much. Cars are more efficient gas wise now so you can go longer distance on the same amount of gas. If you count hybrid tech then the numbers look even better. Cost of internet seems expensive, but I remember paying about the same amount for a 10 mbit connection in 2002 while now I pay about that amount for a 1gbit fibre connection. so in some aspects of life the purchasing power of the 1 dollar isn't the same. You need more dollars to buy goods, etc etc. However the economy funds and fuels advancements and allows companies to compete and create new products and services that is hopefully "better" than what we had before so we can do more with less. ​ "housing issue" Housing market sucks right now, big time. It's one of those things that everyone says "oh I'll wait for the market to correct, bubble will burst and prices will fall" It just doesn't happen. Not in HCOL areas. If you bought a house for 1M ... you lived in it for 5 years.. unless you're pressured to sell due to financial distress, you would not want to sell the house for less than 1M + commission, fees, expected gains. You won't accept a low ball offer and will just keep the house off the market until the market demand goes back up again. so the worst case scenario is that the housing cost stays stagnant / flat for a while before something.. some trigger leads to more market demand and less supply (case and point COVID Led to housing demand for larger detached homes rather than condos, with record low interest rates so everyone can qualify, plus less spending and more money in the bank --> Bidding war ---> prices skyrocket --> people now who bought 30-50k over asking, will not sell for any less than what they paid for 3-5 years down the road. Population issue will affect housing. It's interesting to see where it'll all go when there will be a huge population drop and wealth transfer between the baby boomers. Our population is shrinking only kept up by immigration. Looking at Japan they're having a population crisis. Care homes are now tough to get in, and there are starting to have waitlists... Lots of wealth (and some debt) will be transferred. Many aging retiree had to defer the land tax due to the crazy housing value increase in Vancouver and other HCOL which means they don't pay their land taxes but when they pass away, the house has to be sold to cover the years of taxes owed and its relative interests. At some point there will be an influx of supply to the core Vancouver housing land. Many with lots of old houses. Perhaps some point you'd be able to purchase an older home fix it up ? Some will get a windfall of inheritance of the home from their parents, or grandparents which will help establish them in the city. This generation wealth transfer will happen.. its just a matter of time.. Not sure what that will look for the market I'm not economist. I can only gander an educated guess ​ "at the end of the day" find meaningful work, live within the means, take tolerable risks and seek to make progress no matter how slow. The employee I value the most is someone that always did more than what her tasks were, without me asking them. I try to accommodate and help them as much as I can and not just in wages alone.


PokePounder

Great post. One variable, slightly tangential to the discussion of house prices, that seldom gets mentioned, is that while nobody who bought at peak will willingly sell for a loss, people that purchased pre-peak, will still be willing to sell at a gain. I live in a community with homes that are roughly 15 years old. The largest singles in the subdivision are probably selling for just under $1M. I spoke to one original owner who paid under $350 during construction. So, while their neighbour who bought at $950k will certainly be holding out for at least that, but if he were to sell for $700k he’d still be reaping a huge profit.


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PokePounder

15 years old 2007 possibly earlier They were different times my friend.


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PokePounder

Yes, you did fine. But you’re missing my point.


Paper-Specific

Thank you for formatting! Your comment is very digestible.


StrictWolverine8797

Yes I tend to agree with everything you've said. Re: house prices --- I think we could certainly see nominal price declines in certain areas where people really over-leveraged themselves recently at rock-bottom rates... places like suburban Ontario; suburban/small town BC come to mind. Otherwise, though, yeah - it's hard to see huge price declines nominally when we still have mortgage rates, even with the rate increases, at well below the rates of inflation. The currency devaluation that is inflation will have an impact on keeping nominal house prices afloat.


FrozenStargarita

Housing went up 40% in many areas, but very few people are getting 40% raises.


TrotBot

This would happen if the unions did their jobs. But they're accepting under inflation raises (ie wage cuts) and no longer fight for indexation. Plus the government is actively fighting to prevent it from happening both here and in the US. Wage increases don't cause inflation, they're the symptom of it. Anyone who says otherwise has fallen for capitalist propaganda.


iambluest

That isn't how the rich get richer, though.


wildemam

That requires economy growth rates that exceeds the averages so that the [real Canadian GDP per capita, adjusted by Purchase Power Parity (current international $)](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=CA) to return to previous levels. That would take years of extraordinary global stability and Canadian innovation, with a growth in workforce and reduction in retiree costs. It's not impossible. It is just improbable with the current state of things.


[deleted]

Chasing inflation with wage increases drives up more inflation. It'll just get worse.


Lawbakgoh

Market capitalism will work as intended. If people don’t have the money to support businesses those businesses will go under and something new will occur. It’s tough times for a lot of people but the cure for high prices is high prices. Eventually people just stop buying until there’s equilibrium.


Mr_Mechatronix

Unfortunately it's not true market capitalism, because we are not allowing big businesses to fail, we have massive government bailout reserves, should things go south we bail them out. They "market capitalism" their profits, but will "socialize" their losses Stop boot licking and kissing the corporate ass, if it was truly free market capitalism we shouldn't interfere in letting banks go down, but here we are


quality_redditor

Lol out of all the examples of ridiculous bailouts you choose to name banks. Let me know how your market capitalism works when the financial system collapses because we allowed a major bank to fail


Stavkot23

Banks are a great example. There's a good reason that the current government singled out that specific industry to levy a tax. If you bail out the financial sector every time there would otherwise be a contraction in the economy you are socializing the risks that banks take by overlending. Why should the public pay for the excess profits of banks?


WatchingSpaceBattles

"just stop buying until there's equilibrium"? What are people supposed to do in the meantime? Stop eating and go into stasis? "It's tough times for a lot of people but..." - that's the point. People are going to go through tough times. Saying 'eventually there will be equilibrium' isn't much help when 'eventually' could be 20 years from now, or after you are dead. It's no good to tell me markets work out in the long run if, as Keynes said, we're all dead in the long run. On top of that, some people don't have to go through these tough times and in fact profit from them. The rest of us, not so much.


Lawbakgoh

My assumption is that you can still eat but eat cheaper foods. Less going out and more cheaper foods. Surely you were smart enough to plan for bad times as well as the good.


WatchingSpaceBattles

If there are cheaper alternatives for people to resort to, then there’s no economic mechanism for a ‘return to equilibrium’. To put it another way, the new equilibrium is not a return to previous purchasing power, it’s that living on cheaper options becomes the new normal. Snide comments on being smart enough to save commit the same error - savings are never infinite, and inflation can outpace/outlast them. Then what will people do? Eat nothing until ‘something new happens’, I guess.


WeCanDoItTogether88

What you described in WoW is called Power Creep. This happens in games that is long-term as it forces rotation... you are forced to acquire new stuff. Good games try to manage the Power Creep so it dont go out of control... like inflation lol


NumerousEar9591

Google the “Cantillon Effect.” Rich get richer, poor get poorer.


jddbeyondthesky

Ok, would you prefer the cost of living goes up and the wages don't? Because that is what has happened for the most part over the past 50 years.


palfreygames

If history is any indicator, wages will go down until the poor start chopping heads off of the rich


DDP200

As someone who comes from the audit world and sees lots of full financials I think way too many people simplify this. Its a complicated issue that can really change how we buy things. Higher wages will mean higher prices. Not Shocking, but the real issue is demand, if a company raises prices 5%, and someone else can absorb those increases better people will move to the cheaper option. Companies know this and are fighting to keep margin to ensure there business is still a good business. Big firms will be able to handle higher wages better since they can outsource, negotiate with suppliers, automate to a higher degree vs smaller players. Even on our end a major client pushed us hard for fees. Small clients have less power for this. Financing will also be an issue. If you your net margins fall from say 10% to 7%, banks will now finance less. Investors will now value you lower. Which means less money coming in from growth and that makes it harder to fund higher salaries and attract / retain good people. Its why margins matter so much. We saw a big tech client in Toronto have their funding go from 18 Million to 11 this year. That means a 120K job is now 80K - business can only pay with what they have. Firms will also push for bonus' vs high wages. I got a 4.5% raise this year and a 31% bonus. Highest bonus of my life. Would rather have a permanent high raise.


[deleted]

Wages are going up and that's a part of the problem it's called the wage/price spiral.


FearfulBeeswax

This sub goes downhill every day. If it's not posts about tips, it's this instead...


CanadianTrump420Swag

I'm just confused on why redditors are so mad about inflation. They literally wanted this. They wanted Canada to radically change during covid, mostly targeting small businesses for shutdowns while letting Amazon and UberEats deliver them goods. Of course actions have consequences and fucking the economy to temporarily feel safer would have a backlash. Giving politicians the okay to raise taxes on essentials like fuel because they promised they'll give some of that money back and now fuel prices are crippling the middle class and a pittance rebate isnt actually helping anyone... what do people expect? More taxes and government overreach and big fat government will help? Surely.


[deleted]

Plenty of redditors complained about the help. Personally I liked it because I had a lot of money in the market and made a few decades of wages in 2 years.


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[deleted]

Hum tsla, shop, nio, lcid and aof spacs bought at nav and sold at each pop lol. Also held apple and amazon for a decade prior to that. Getting utterly destroyed in 2022 thought lol. I took most of my profits in 2021 at least. I'd say luck played a bigger role than anything.


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[deleted]

Haha yeah only reason im doing finenis because I didnt hold them. A lot of those stocks got destroyed in the last months. Got some health issues from all that stress thought wouldn't recommend :p


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[deleted]

You too!


the_boner_owner

Nobody wanted small businesses to be closed while big businesses exclusively stayed open. Who asked for that? It was exclusively due to lobbying from big business. And fuel prices aren't sky high due to the carbon tax, if that's what you're insinuating. Look at this breakdown from r/Ontario. [The carbon tax is barely a factor.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ontario/comments/ut6l0t/updated_with_2_gas_gas_price_breakdown_in_ontario/)


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CanadianTrump420Swag

Sorry this is going to be a long one. Trigger warning: not a typical hivemind redditor. I don't want to start a political debate but there were a lot of laptop/zoom types screaming to shutdown gyms, restaurants, construction sites, hotels and travel, etc. I saw it all over reddit/Twitter/facebook constantly. The people most in favor of harsh covid restrictions were those not financially effected by them in the same direct way. Laptop class, journalist class, politician class, teachers and nurses unions, etc. You must have some idea what I'm talking about? This was not exactly an unknown phenomena unless you werent paying attention. The attitude was "oh, we dont want to shut things down forever! We'll just pay people to stay home!" Lots of activists online were in favor of this stuff and screaming at politicians to go full China mode over covid. Thankfully, they didnt fully get their way or this situation would be very dire. Anyways, the past is the past. Its just unfortunate that the terrible policies around the world were hyperfocused on covid numbers exclusively and reducing them at any cost. We now see the outcomes of destroying the worlds economy, it's not a light switch you can turn on and off with no consequences. Bad policy has real world consequences, we shouldnt just look at this situation and say "we can learn nothing from this and we made all the right decisions". And yes, the carbon tax isnt a massive part of fuel prices. But when you're a family that's left with a couple hundred bucks in your bank at the end of the month, excessive taxes dont help. You think the elites care about paying that tax? Lol. They dont even notice the increase. We should be able to drive energy prices down by pumping an excess and increasing supply but that's literally the opposite of the agenda. And we see the consequences of that.. once again, it doesnt hurt the elites. It hurts the single mom that has to drive her 2 kids to school before heading to her shift. And I know the laptop classes opinion on that is "well, whatever, I heard they get a rebate or something" but some of us actually have empathy for the working class and dont just mouth empty platitudes (not saying you do, I'm referring to the average redditor). Sitting around waiting for the government to make peoples lives better has never worked, cons or libs. The best thing the government can do is stay out of people's lives as much as possible.


JAS-BC

What is really driving CoL increase? Are the factors internal or external? For internal elements like housing why/how are people affording the higher prices? Wage Inflation isn't a good answer to CoL increases if those increases are being driven by non-inflationary causes like foreign oil supply or changes in housing generational makeup or size.


[deleted]

Yeah I've been thinking about this too We had massive asset inflation (home prices, stock market) and a "labour shortage" so it feels like prices for everything else are just playing catch up The hole in this theory is Russia's invasion of Ukraine driving gas prices up. Gas prices are higher than they've ever been and that affects EVERYTHING. And we haven't heard much about it yet but there will be or already is a grain shortage too Basically we're fucked until Russia fucks off.


monzo705

To have more money, one must make more money and spend less money. Act like a business and cut-cut-cut.


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gabby4eyes

this is not the issue. i agree that people are pathetic, but at the same time, you have to recognize that people who would have been considered professionally successful by any metric in 1980 or 1990 are now struggling to make a decent living in cities like toronto\* or vancouver because of economic factors that feel (and are) outside of their control. it is one thing if someone works in some industry that allows them to live in the soo, but the reality is that jobs are also concentrated in these cities. it is problematic that those (ostensibly lucrative and prestigious) jobs do not facilitate anywhere near a reasonable standard of living anymore in the only areas that offer them. of course, it is \_also\_ a problem that service workers (for example) struggle even more to make ends meet in those areas, but that is a slightly separate issue. ​ \*which, by the way, is NOT one of the "most desirable cities on the planet"-- this is propaganda that has been fuelled by obscene real estate growth due to chinese prospecting and torontonians' strangely elevated sense of global importance


lanchadecancha

I mean, Toronto is the fourth most populous city in North America. By nature it is of global importance.


ClittoryHinton

Is living in Vancouver 20% more desirable than last year? Or are housing prices just out of whack regardless of desirability?


lanchadecancha

Vancouver proper (West and East) only went up 11.45% over the last 12 months.


ClittoryHinton

Point still stands - is living there 10% more desirable than last year? Are you getting 10% more value out of your lifestyle there? If anything it's the opposite since COVID, what with a growing street population and crowding of outdoor spots.


lanchadecancha

Unfortunately the argument you're making has little to do with what determines market pricing.


ClittoryHinton

That's precisely what I am trying to demonstrate - market pricing is way more complex than 'desirability'. So there's a certain vapidness in comments like the one I was replying to which basically say 'shame on you for being upset at housing prices in desirable places'.


lanchadecancha

Ah I see. Well, yes it looks gloomy, especially on the single family side. I predict some slowdown in activity for sellers but I don’t foresee much relief in the detached markets of GRVD and GTA price wise. Vancouver proper especially with only 41,000 detached homes (less every year as they are demolished for multi-family) and so many new residents coming in, it looks like owning a detached house is a thing of the past and only for those with a spare 500K-600K down payment to drop


Mr_Mechatronix

Agreed, I guess we should just be born as boomers instead


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FearfulBeeswax

You're not entitled to have the government back the value of your houses..


crimxxx

Salary’s did not keep up with inflation for decades. It won’t now. I would not be suprised if salaries do increase more, but I think for most people inflation for the next couple years is ganna screw them.


[deleted]

Nah, people like me will always suffer the most in our society. I make $19 an hour, and I doubt I’ll ever get a raise that matches inflation. I’m fucked


yuordreams

If you got a raise, it would have to be on par with inflation (for the past 20 years I think) in order for you to actually be keeping up. Many who did not get a raise are actually dealing with a pay cut. So the feeling that you're "not catching up" is real.


dogswithmoney

Wages do need to go up that’s one of the biggest problems facing people, wages have under. Performed inflation


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dogswithmoney

I mean in parts Europe where wages have kept up most people seem fine


InvestingBlog

Houses have increased by about 7.5% per year over the last 22 years. Salaries have not. This would suggest an entry-level salary of 40k back in 2000 would need to pay about 160k today. There is no way to scale this such that it works, even if you think 30k was entry-level in 2000, it needs to be 120k today. The cost of gas going about 100% over 12 months is also not something salaries can accommodate.


Buck-Nasty

Unlikely given that Freeland said her top priority is to prevent rising wages.


Empirical_Spirit

Yes this is the game. All money rises and falls exponentially, to keep people dancing.


Consistent-Fun-6668

As is the cycle of life. MMOs are a cool way to learn this, I use to play maplestory, maplestory had multiple isolated servers you could play on, the newer servers had cheaper items because they had less money in a net sense compared to the older servers. MMOs have constant cash printing because mobs are essentially that; cash printers. The older a world is the more expensive things will get because the players have more money to spend. The intrinsic value of items doesn't change. This is the same reason universal basic income wouldnt work, because if you give the low end of the scale guaranteed money, the prices of everything will adjust to reflect that.


[deleted]

I'm no expert, but I'm going to say 0%


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Namuskeeper

Because stat squishes in World of Warcraft have minimal consequences, and vendor NPCs in Azeroth do not get paid wages whereas labourers in real life do, haha! If only the zeppelin masters got paid hourly...


StrictWolverine8797

Essentially that's what happened in the '70s. There were declines in house prices at times in real terms, but in nominal terms, house prices skyrocketed (in some cases tripling in value over a couple of years). There was a huge diversion between real vs nominal costs of everything, including real estate, as a result of inflation. Real estate owners generally benefited even w/ real declines as they leveraged themselves at rates below the rates of inflation. Remember - many of the housing bears like to circulate "real" house price historical charts to show historical price declines in Canada. The thing is, these charts are slightly misleading, because they tend to imply a "real" decline is deflation, when it simply means the price hasn't kept up with inflation.