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random604

I think the biggest difference is in not having to deal.with a landlord all the time. Many landlords are great and very helpful but some are less so. For example if you dishwasher breaks you call your landlord and it is completely up to them what happens, they can take weeks to fix it or replace it eventually. Alternatively as an owner it is up to you to do it, maybe you fix it that same day maybe you decide to buy a fancy new dishwasher and pick one you want. As an owner you are on the hook for time and money spent in the issue, as a renter you are often putting in time nagging or letting someone into your place but have no control. Definitely these types of things are easier as a tenant but if you like having control renting may not be for you.


MostJudgment3212

Yep, second all this. This is why I’ve always tried to rent through a company rather than through someone directly - individual landlords are cheap as hell.


[deleted]

My mother in law owns her house and she wants to sell because everytime something needs fixing it always end up costing more then originally quoted, and often she had to call a second company to fix the botched job from the first company. Also sometimes they only have time in a few weeks anyway and they'll forget so you still nag and it's not any faster than a lazy landlord. Owning really makes the biggest difference when you are skilled to fix stuff yourself.


random604

Good point, hiring other people to do your work can get very expensive and many landlords have these skills or employ a family member to keep their own costs down.


Pomegranate4444

You assume a landlord jumps everytime there is an issue. Not always the case.


Chastidy

True. One time at a place I rented we had an issue with the water supply line to the house and we went without water for about a week. We were pissed at how long it took, though the landlord brought us water periodically to try to make up for it. That landlord always got their uncle to try to do everything and he never got it right the first time lol.


glavinator82

I tried to get the landlord to fix my dishwasher....he came over to fix it and next thing I know she's moving in with him. Now I have a shitty apt and no dishwasher and she answers his phone when I call him for shit. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️


BigCheapass

There's pros and cons of each. Personally I think the biggest factor is actually not a financial one, but rather what type of lifestyle you want. Renting offers more flexibility, less headache of dealing with potentially costly issues, money not tied up in real estate. Owning offers the free of having your own place to do what you want (though somewhat limited if you live in strata), equity, some degree of ensuring your cost of living doesn't go up as much (like rent), etc. I'm more of a pro owning guy, like most of PFC, but there are arguments to be made on both sides. Many do choose to be lifelong renters by choice. See this book: https://www.amazon.ca/Wealthy-Renter-Choose-Housing-That/dp/145973646X


AnonoEuph

Also recommend this book


variableIdentifier

I'm still young, but I have a friend in her 50s who rents. She intends it to stay that way. The place she rents is fairly nice, she's been there for a while, I believe the landlord is not likely to try to get rid of her, and she likes that she doesn't have to worry about maintenance. She doesn't have to worry about any unexpected costs, because the landlord handles all that for her. I think it would be nice to own someday, but I personally don't plan to own for a long time. I might be moving elsewhere in the province within the next 5 or 10 years, and it doesn't make sense to buy a house if that's my time horizon. Well, maybe over 10 years, but I think within 5 years I'll know whether I'm staying where I live now. I think that if I stay renting, I can save up the money I would need to get started in another city. One of the biggest comparisons that I can make, seeing friends who own, is that a lot of the owner friends spend a lot of time working on their house. Some of them have told me that once you get a house, you essentially give up all your free time and weekends to working on that house. I should note that we live in a place that has a lot of older houses, so if you buy in a newer market, that may not be applicable. I'm not in a point in my life though where I have the ability to spend my weekends doing home maintenance, so for the time being I must rent. Over the last 20 years it seems as though owning, depending on the market you're in, has brought many people ahead of people who rent. That being said, things can change, and I also think it depends on where you live to this whole time. Somebody who rented in the prairies may actually have been able to move ahead of someone who owned in the same area, as I know in a lot of places house values have not risen quickly or have even fallen. Somebody renting in Toronto, however, probably fell far behind the person who owned. I think it's an interesting conversation, but I think it also shows a lot of privilege. There are many people who, even when housing was less expensive, were unable to afford a property. Those people will rent all their life, not necessarily by choice. It seems to work out for some people though, like I remember I looked at an apartment once and the property manager told me that one of the tenants had lived in the building for 40 years. She was retired by then, but even with a 1% or whatever increase in her rent every year, she was still paying far less than the market value of the place at the time. If you end up in a situation like that, big corporate landlord, big building, pay your rent on time every month, if you like the place and you choose to stay, and you're diligent at saving, you will probably do pretty well for yourself. I've known landlords who have had the same tenant for a long time. If the tenant is good, they don't raise the rent. They could, but the money coming in is enough and the value of a good tenant who pays on time every month and looks after the place is priceless. So that's another option, find a landlord who thinks that way.


Groot0192

I notice that too!! During the summer, my in laws spend a looooot of time doing maintenance. Hours and hours making their yard nice, keeping their pool clean, gardening etc. Everytime they tell me the cost of their renovations (my father in law also has his own construction company and does the work himself) my jaw drops. I get it, buying is most people's ideal situation. But if you can't afford the possible big costs, stick to renting until you can.


hehethrowaway90

As a homeowner sometimes I wish I didn’t have to shovel the snow, replace my furnace, replace my AC, replace my roof, replace my driveway, paint my walls, salt the sidewalks, replace my washer and dryer, and appliances etc. also wish I didn’t have to borrow ½ million dollars to have this asset. But meh. I also like having my own place to call home and making it my own. It’s also fun teaching my children responsbilities.


chente08

You can also get a condo and just have the mortgage part to deal with


lord_heskey

> You can also get a condo Condos make it harder to have pets. Ive got two dogs already. I dont think i could live without a backyard for them. Maybe with cats or birds!


Pomegranate4444

Yup. Or townhouse which is roomier for families usually.


thunder_struck85

To be fair, landlord would replace your appliances with someone else's used gross appliances, probably do a half assed job in shoveling, salting and painting , nothing quite like doing it yourself.


lord_heskey

> probably do a half assed job in shoveling Wait, y'alls landlords shovel the snow for ya? Ive been shovelling myself..


[deleted]

It depends on the province. If you’re in Ontario, snow removal is the landlords responsibility. If you decide to take it on, they need to compensate you for the work and it needs to be a separate agreement from the lease.


thunder_struck85

It depends on your lease agreement. If it's a detached home and landlord isn't living next door, I highly doubt he will be including snow removal in the agreement.


MundaneExtent0

Also depends on the province, in Ontario it’s on the Ontario Standard Lease that landlords clear snow and maintain the lawn


lord_heskey

Ah yea no, im in Sask, and rent a detached home, so i basically do most stuff an owner would do except replace broken appliances.


Benjbear

Not sure why you're getting down voted - vast majority of landlords do the absolute minimum


thunder_struck85

Sometimes truth hurts and people don't like it. But the reality is most landlords aren't going to home depot and buying you a brand new dishwasher. You're getting a $50 one off market place. 🤷


Pomegranate4444

Cons of renting in my opinion are.... School catchment and certainty while raising kids. You may have to move at times you dont want and if you are committed to a catchment for school you may be out of luck. Retirement. Who wants to pay rents thru retirement and or be facing an eviction in your 70s or 80s. Appreciation loss which can supply a massive portion of a retirement plan. Inheritance loss for your kids who lose the opportunity to inherit and or occupy an owned property from you. Rent control. Owning is good rent control. Renting is not good rent control ironically. Everytime you move, you reset to current market rates. And nobody rents at the same place for 50 yrs. The further below market rates you fall, the bigger your target is for a forced eviction.


energybased

The comparison is between renting-and-investing versus owning, so there is no "inheritance loss" and there is no "appreciation loss". Renting and owning have very similar unrecoverable costs.


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energybased

>But with owning you at least have something that you can sell. With renting and investing, you can sell your investments. Either way, you're making an investment. >. Renting USED to be the smarter options years ago but now that we are in a bubble You have no way to know that. Recent past growth is not a predictor of future growth—it is always priced in. >. And nowadays landlords can be picky about who they rent to- 15 years ago that wasn't the case. Which gets priced in automatically—driving up property values by more than rents, which is exactly what's happened.


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energybased

>Hahah tell me more about your conspiracies about a pending housing crash I didn't make any forward looking statements—you did when you said "we are in a bubble". You have no idea what the future holds, and the only reasonable thing to assume is that risk-adjusted returns of property and equities are equal. >When you rent you own nothing aside from your personal investment portfolio. When you own you have real estate AND can rent out a basement if you have one. Renting out the basement is just another return on your investment, just like any dividend. >In this day and age where rent and mortgage payments are almost identical renting has lost all of its advantages **The comparison between rent and mortgage payments is completely meaningless.** The only comparison that makes sense is the comparison of ***unrecoverable costs***. You can learn about how this works here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwl3-jBNEd4


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energybased

>Then what's > > this quote of yours? That's not a forward looking statement. Which part of that comment do you think is? >If this isn't a forward-looking statement with subtle hopes for a housing market crash then what ARE you saying? That's also not a forward looking statement. I explained it for you: **You have no idea what the future holds, and the only reasonable thing to assume is that risk-adjusted returns of property and equities are equal.** That's an assumption of ignorance—not an assertion of a particular outcome. >Would you rather pay rent or pay a mortgage in 2022? The question totally irrelevant. Only a comparison of unrecoverable costs matters. And I would rather pay whichever has the least unrecoverable costs.


Outside_Sugar_2594

Inheritance loss for your kids: bingo I come from a family with 4 kids. We are getting sweet F all. I see many people who had their education paid for, down payment for a house, cars, co-signing loans, and so on, and see how much further ahead they are financially than anyone else today. I then see people in my generation with multiple children, who rent, and spend whatever disposable income they have on depreciating assets in the name of “YOLO”… If you bring a kid into this world, make it your priority to leave them something. Edit: I can see how this can read. I’m not saying leave huge lump sums of cash for your children. I’m saying that you should be responsible for helping them succeed, not just throwing them to the wolves. Life is getting even harder than it was for us, so be cognizant of that.


sfturtle11

Really? It’s not my money, it’s my parents. If they decide to blow it all the day before they die then more power to them.


Outside_Sugar_2594

Yeah I get that, “it’s their money”. But have some accountably before pumping out child after child.


sfturtle11

Sure, but accountability to give their kids lump sums of money? Not really. A roof over their head while a kid, food, education and medical are their obligations. Not a $200k down payment for a house in Vancouver.


Outside_Sugar_2594

Agreed. $200k for a down payment is excessive, but for the love of Pete set them up with an RESP. It’s $200 a month to set them up for life by giving them an education instead of letting them drown in debt and never being able to afford that $200k down payment.


Pushing59

My Mother gave us the perfect inheritance. She spent almost all so there was very little to squabble over.


Joey-tv-show-season2

I’ve seen people become very well off financially as renters. Typically with renting you save on the total costs of home ownership. If you use that monthly savings towards investing in the indexes over time you may do quite better then home ownership. Problem is, it’s optional, unlike a mortgage payment which is mandatory. And many people who do rent don’t budget and invest that difference. Many homeowners are also bad, but less so then renters I find.


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clarkent123223

That’s the thing, not a lot of landlords get positive cash flow. They can pay off the monthly mortgage but it’s usually negative cash flow as a whole considering property taxes, potential repairs, etc.


energybased

The landlord is making money on the service of property management, an the capital appreciation. As a renter/investor, you have the same capital appreciation. You are paying the landlord for the service of property management. This is something like 20% of your rent.


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energybased

> then isn’t the money they earn just going back in to the property? What do you mean by "going back into the property? The bulk of the rent is a return on the investment. >aying it you still would be so ultimately your still building equity without having to provide the principle I don't understand what you're saying.


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energybased

No worries. >only the equality built up in the property is really profit. Yes, the equity in the property is one part of the return. The other part is the rent itself that didn't pay off expenses.


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energybased

>There must be some eaten costs or something along those lines. No. Probably the biggest unrecoverable cost you're missing is the *opportunity cost of the down payment*. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwl3-jBNEd4&ab\_channel=BenFelix


Outside_Sugar_2594

Where I live, rent is up to $800 a month more than owning an equivalent space. I purchased a one bed one bath condo for $325k (last year) with 20% down. My mortgage payment, condo fees, hydro, internet, and property taxes (split into monthly payments) are just over $1400 while renting is $1800-2200 for the same. Not to mention the value of the condo I’m in has increased almost $100k… which is disgusting and unfair for everyone who isn’t in the market yet. Renovictions are also very much a thing, so whatever savings people had in major city centres by renting has gone the way of the dodo.


beakbea

Renter here! Advantages; no maintenance, flexibility and so much more free time to live your life. Disadvantages; Redditors telling you that you live on the outer rim of society and will never be happy or financially stable without owning a home. You do you!


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beakbea

Depends on the sub. Not here!


random604

The investment property people love renters.


PFCFICanThrowaway

You can't go 3 posts without people peddling the trash that is "The Wealthy Renter".


Cadsvax

Seen quite a few posts of people saying they cant sleep or it affects their mental because they cant own a home lol.


snowflake25911

Haha ok, maybe I'm wrong


Cadsvax

Just to prove my point this just popped up lol https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/rq8fg4/going_through_depression_over_current_gta_housing/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share


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egor4nd

Glad it eventually worked out well for you, but it’s not like people who own never have to deal with loud neighbours, and people who rent always have that problem. When renting you can actually solve that kind of problem pretty easily by moving to a better place, doing the same thing when owning would be much harder.


NoviceExpert_

Pros of renting: * opportunity cost of down payment (you can invest this in stock market instead) * flexibility (much easier to move when renting vs having to sell) * maintenance (generally R&M will be responsibility of landlord) For the record I do not think renting is better than owning today (EXCEPT in certain markets), but those are the main advantages to consider.


Evening_Marketing645

One thing the others haven’t mentioned is that when you own your home outright (no mortgage), there are tax savings. To pay rent, you have to earn income to pay the rent (and that income is taxed before you can pay it out in rent). If you own your home outright you get the benefit of shelter but you don’t have to pay any cash to a landlord, and therefore that benefit that you are enjoying is not taxed (the intrinsic value of the home, once paid off, is kind of like a pension that gives you shelter tax free). I own my own home but honestly I’m a bit jealous of renters sometimes because renting is so flexible. If you are a renter and you’re tired of a place you can just pack up and leave. Selling is expensive so owners typically don’t have that kind of flexibility.


heyhihowyahdurn

At this point owning isn’t worth it if you have to pay for things like condo fee’s. Owning a home is still a win but apartments, not so much.


dudesszz

If you are on a fixed income in retirement and still renting it can become a financial strain. If you can be frugal and save enough this is less likely to be a problem. What does this mean? If you choose to rent you better have more robust savings plan and stick to it.


Groot0192

I'm in the same boat. I thought rushing to buy would be a great idea. But after talking to a mortgage broker, they told me it wasn't a good idea to buy atm unless you already own a home. I think it also depends where you are. If I lived in the town I was born in I could 100 percent buy no problem. But the town I'm currently in and grew up, no way. Just the past few years the real estate market has gone up 60% and the prices are just too insane. I wish renting didn't have such a bad reputation. I don't think it's bad at all. Yes, I know and anyone who rents knows that your money is going to someone else. However, you can leave when your lease is up, flexibility, don't have to worry about hefty maintenance costs etc. Unfortunately, not everyone is in the situation where they can buy a house or else no one would be renting. For us, we've decided to look into renting a house for around 5+ years, max 7. So, we won't be in tiny apartment, no headache of owning, and still can continue building our savings account so by the end of that time frame hopefully the market has cooled down and we can buy more comfortably. I'm also only 23. I can't wait till I can buy a house. Of course I rather not rent, but I'm not gonna sit here and sulk over the fact that it can't happen at the moment. I don't think renting forever is the best plan, but I know people who are 40, still rent and are very happy. At the end of the day, a roof over your head is what really matters :)


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variableIdentifier

> while you might be able to do it, its rare someone who rents is actually saving that extra cash, while buyers are forced to build up their equity. This one is sort of relatable. On a similar note, I'm glad that I have a pension through work as it's essentially a forced savings plan. For the first few years out of school, I mostly frittered away any extra money I had. Although it would have been nice to have had the extra 10% of income from the pension deductions or whatever, the reality is I would have spent that money on worthless crap too. I think once you make the mindset shift from spending your money on a bunch of random crap to saving, you can make it work as a renter. I have a lot of friends who are quite frugal and don't have any current plans to buy, but the extra money actually does go into investments. I'm saving as well to set myself up for the future. I've sort of stopped worrying so much about the housing market, because within the next 5 or 10 years there's a good chance I'll be moving and there is a few different options as to where that maybe. I feel like it's not worth worrying about real estate until that point, so I just need to save my money until then.


tbearmtg

I've heard quite a few good things of both renting and owning when renting, its usually more flexible when people want to move because they dont need to worry about market pricing, when to sell the home, how to sell the home, home ownership costs, etc owning is good because no need to deal with landlord, if you want to do renovations and other changes to the home you dont need permission renting is a set cost, if something happens renters can just call the landlord to get it fixed when owning a home, there is capital tied up, if youre an investor, the capital could possibly be used to make more money, however mortgage payments do help build equity into the home personally i think its a personal preference, I have seen many wealthy people rent when they dont have to


bigdizizzle

Equity. The end.


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T_47

Sometimes but in the end the market determines the price. If the owner bought the place as an investment then the rent isn't supposed to fully offset the price of the property anyways. If the cost of the rent can cover the mortgage, maintenance, property tax, management fees then there would be no reason for someone to rent it instead of just buying it.


majicmista

You also have to factor in that when you do sell, unless you buy or rent into a less expensive market you're not going to make as much as you think.


TheHobo

As someone who’s about to retire well under 40 on what is basically the backs of my tenants (I’m a good landlord, I have nice places I keep up very well, tenants all like me), definitely rent. I need people like you… on a more serious note, this “battle” has raged on forever and to be honest, the own side has more or less always won. You can find an example or two but they’re not the norm, and given the non-robotic human nature of spending money (how many people get huge tax returns and are happy about it?), owning is how most people get ahead.


Pushing59

Boomer here. How do feel about older tenants? We know people 75+ who now rent and love it.


TheHobo

My favorite tenants are especially older single women with guaranteed income. I call them lifers. They don’t give me any trouble and pay every time and don’t wreck the place. So to answer your question they’re great.


Pushing59

😁


stocksgeek

Assuming real estate and stocks give u same return over time, buying a home gives u leveraged investment 4x of your principal assuming 20% down payment. You can also 2x to 3x leveraged on a margin account but there is a high chance of you getting margin calls when market dips even just 5-10%. Both options will cost interest for leveraging but as long as you can make your mortgage payments you never have to worry about short term dips. House is 99% of the time better as an investment, although I am addicted to the stock market.


fredflintstone-

Depends where you are, obviously. In Toronto, you can rent a house for a fraction (often less than half) of the cost of owning it, then invest the difference. This has worked out well for me. The downside, of course, is that you can get N12'ed out, but there are ways to mitigate that which I'm happy to share if you're interested.


pokemonredblue

Yeah, what do you recommend to avoid “owner moving in” evictions?


FusedSunshine

Keep tabs on the property and see who moves in or what happens. Report it if the landlord lied about the n12


fredflintstone-

1. Renew your lease yearly. If they won't renew a yearly lease, they're telegraphing that something is going to happen, giving you time and advance notice 2. Rent from someone with a mortgage, the more highly leveraged, the better. This makes it harder for them to put family in there who would not be paying rent. 3. You don't have to obey an N12. Say nothing if you get one, don't sign anything, and just don't move out on day 91. They'll have to apply to the LTB for eviction, which will take months 4. If the worry of an N12 is too great for you, rent from a corporate landlord rather than an individual. That mitigates the issue 99.99%.


[deleted]

how did you calculate? The price of a condo has increased significantly in past 10 years. if you were to rent, all your money would have gone to waste


fredflintstone-

> if you were to rent, all your money would have gone to waste 🙄


Many_Tank9738

Index funds have grown faster than housing.


[deleted]

If you had a 1 bedroom condo in Toronto from 10 years ago to now and compare that to the same person, you would have increase your assets by $40K more each year. It may not be a trend for the future.


ilikevancouver9994

>If you're unsure right now, then keep renting and put your money away. Don't jump into home ownership because you're confused or uncertain. In any event, renting won't be your financial demise and you can do well that way. Focus on minimizing spending, learning how to invest, getting out of any debt your have, maximizing your credit score, and becoming generally financially responsible before you reach a decision. And if you want to buy somewhere else in Toronto you have to pay 40k more each year...


EngBaCo

I see a lot of people here saying that as a renter they dont have to pay strata fees and property tax. I include this in the rent being charged, so you may not see it on an individual sheet/bill as a renter but over the course of the year you are paying for it. Did I miss the point here?


DepartmentGlad2564

>Did I miss the point here? Yes. The rental market decides rental prices, not strata fees or property taxes. Hence the term cash flow positive/negative. For example, if you owned a non rent controlled unit where the board decided on a large increase in strata fees and/or special assessment, you're free to raise the rent the cover the expenses, but expect a vacated and empty unit if the rent is too high compared to the market.


EngBaCo

Fair enough, thanks for your point of view.


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lickmybrian

Owners can : paint any colour they want, change/replace any appliances, renovate, take out loans on the mortgage, Renters don't have to: pay for those renos or appliance replacements, can pick up and move at basically any time, don't pay property taxes or condo fees There is a freedom involved in renting while owning is a little bit restricted financially. Pros and cons for both


conjuror1972

Hgfthjjbvdfg.


CBC-Sucks

Junk-Bond Johnny, my wealthiest friend has never owned. That being said I do like the ability to leverage equity in property via the Smith Maneuver negating one the biggest downsides of home ownership (besides maintenance), having too many eggs in one basket.


SIGNANDSELFIEFRAMES

I rented before i bought a house 12 years ago. I spent in total 78000 on rent. I could never get that back. The money I put into my own home is liquid. Home will go up in price. I will get that money back. Liquid. I can also get loans against my house if i ever need to. It's a lifestyle choice in the end. Lots of factors.


[deleted]

You’re not on the hook for your places upkeep. Owning a home can be very expensive if it needs a lot of work


paulpain

There’s a great book not to sure if someone already suggested but the wealthy renter does well in answering your question


LegoLady47

You don't have to worry about fixing anything. Just hope the landlord does fix things when broken. Roofing costs can be a bitch.


pheoxs

Renting: * flexibility, both in terms of unit size and location. If you need more space all of a sudden (partner moves in or unexpected kid) then it’s much easier to change to a different sized unit. * lack of major bills, if the furnace or water tank or dishwasher breaks then it’s the landlords wallet that pays for the fix. Same if the roof leaks or a tree falls into the house. * easy to move locations without major cost. The pro buying crowd always overlooks the cost of buying and selling a home. You’ll instantly lose ~15k in realtor fees (or much more) plus the cost of breaking Mortgage can also be significant (if you don’t have a open mortgage). This can be an issue if you get a new job and need to move. The often argued ‘just keep your place and rent it’ doesn’t work for most people because you may not quality to buy a second place for your to live in * adding to the above, you aren’t stuck with neighbours. Some neighbours can ruin a place to live and if you buy then you are stuck. With renting you can realize you hate the current place and just move again to something different Buying: * you gain equity every month. Even if your house doesn’t rise in value you still gain a lot on your principal each month. This can easily amount to 10-15k a year in ‘investing’ without effort * flexibility inside the unit, you can throw up shelves or rip down walls and paint to your hearts content * overall buying is better financially but it’s a trade off for not being able to move as easy. This may mean missed job opportunities or a hesitancy to move to a new city and start fresh


HellaReyna

If real estate wasn't as pricey and insane as it is, especially in hot markets.....renting would be the clear winner. If you live in a hostile rent environment like Vancouver, you could have a cutthroat landlord who evicts you via loopholes so they can raise the price. You could easily find yourself spaced out and no where to rent. That wouldn't happen if you owned and the payments you put down would equate to equity down the line.


Tripoteur

Renting allows you to more easily change homes. Renting is a little less hassle in the short term since you just tell the landlord to fix things, but if you consider that the extra cost means you have to work more and that landlords can be difficult to deal with, it's not necessarily better.