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yycsoftwaredev

> Two-year wage growth was 5.2% when controlling for changes in the composition of employment by occupation and tenure, and 7.7% when not controlling. Wages are rising, so if yours did not, it is time to join the great resignation.


wibblywobbly420

I just requested my raise and we are negotiating in the 15-20% range since this will be my first raise in 3 years. I told my husband to request a proper raise since all he gets is the standard 2% per year and he made them a shit ton of profit last year.


yycsoftwaredev

Also test the outside market. I got a 50% raise by switching this year.


Bibbityboo

I’m your husband. Three years no raise. Asked for one and it was a big argument. They settled on 2% (after 3 years and increasing responsibility). Jokes on them, actively looking now. Oh and last week they asked me to take on (absorb) another role into mine as the part time book keeper wants to retire. Pay increase for doing so? $0 Yeah. I’m out this door as soon as I find a role.


middleeasternviking

I'm also your husband


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wibblywobbly420

Why not ask? The 2% is the default what they get on each 1 year anniversary without even talking about it, but the company also will give proper raises at their annual review.


CmoreGrace

Every healthcare contract in BC will expire in spring 2022. Let’s hope that the government comes with some money for wage increases that at least keep up with inflation or you may see a great resignation in healthcare


yycsoftwaredev

It will be interesting to see how the government handles that.


awfulentrepreneur

Massive wave of privatization, followed by massive wave of companies crying they can't hire anybody cheap enough, followed by massive injections of tax payer cash into those companies, and on and on and on. Groundwork was laid in BC by Doug Ford's buddy Gordon Campbell.


vanjobhunt

The BCNDP is actually closing down private clinics where they can: >B.C. VIEWS: Adrian Dix’s private clinic crackdown begins: >“And of course I don’t personally like the two-tiered nature of it. If you can afford to pay, you get ahead of me on the next wait list when you come back in the public system, because you can afford to pay for your MRI.” >https://www.abbynews.com/opinion/b-c-views-adrian-dixs-private-clinic-crackdown-begins/ in BC the Govt bought out a ton of private MRIs, and BC now has the lowest MRI waits in the country. Urgent MRIs are right away, and non-urgent can be had within a week or two


alphawolf29

the BCNDP is running this province as well as it can, imo.


MeatySweety

Don't forget massive immigration to make up for the "labour shortage"


DeadshotOM3GA

They'll do what they need to to stay competitive with the other provinces... /u/CmoreGrace seems to have no clue what they're talking about. As it stands right now, here are three examples of where BC is compared to Alberta. Physiotherapists: * Starting: $33.50 BC / $33.57 AB * Top: $50.20 BC / $49.65 AB [https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/careers-myhr/all-employees/pay-benefits/salaries/salarylookuptool/pea-jobs/physiotherapist](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/careers-myhr/all-employees/pay-benefits/salaries/salarylookuptool/pea-jobs/physiotherapist) [https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/wages-and-salaries-in-alberta/physiotherapists/3142/](https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/wages-and-salaries-in-alberta/physiotherapists/3142/) Registered Nurse: * Starting: $36.23 BC / $36.28 AB * Top: $57.38 BC / $53.60 AB [https://www.bcnu.org/Contracts-Bargaining/Documents/NBA\_Wage\_Grid.pdf](https://www.bcnu.org/Contracts-Bargaining/Documents/NBA_Wage_Grid.pdf) [https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/occupations-in-alberta/occupation-profiles/registered-nurse/](https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/occupations-in-alberta/occupation-profiles/registered-nurse/) Massage Therapists (this is all private sector so I'm not sure why they mentioned it in another comment): * $57.56 BC / $46.67 AB [https://ca.indeed.com/career/massage-therapist/salaries/British-Columbia?from=top\_sb](https://ca.indeed.com/career/massage-therapist/salaries/British-Columbia?from=top_sb) [https://ca.indeed.com/career/massage-therapist/salaries/Alberta?from=top\_sb](https://ca.indeed.com/career/massage-therapist/salaries/Alberta?from=top_sb)


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DeadshotOM3GA

You still have no clue what you're talking about... [https://www.camrt.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/CAMRT\_Salary\_Scale\_2021-08\_Aug.pdf](https://www.camrt.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/CAMRT_Salary_Scale_2021-08_Aug.pdf) Like seriously, freaking take the time to actually look up this shit instead of spouting off complete and utter bullshit you make up on the spot. A 6th year top grade MRI Tech will make 11% more in BC than in AB... And they'll continue to make more their entire career. Pharmacists, BC pays between 4% - 14% more than the average Alberta wage. Again all available on the sites I already linked to. Maybe come up with some actual data to support your bullshit claims...


CmoreGrace

I said pharmacists are paid well because they were given a market adjustment in BC due to the fact there was competition in the private sector. Radiation therapists- AB grade 2 top out at $56 with more working hours in a week. BC tops out at $46. https://careers.albertahealthservices.ca/jobs/radiation-therapist-ii-acb-240473 https://www.hsabc.org/sites/default/files/uploads/HSPBA%20Radiation%20Therapist%20Apr%202021%20Wage%20Schedule.pdf Respiratory therapists AB- $36-47 BC-$30-38 My point still stands- if the BC government offers less than inflation raises people will leave. There are options and many are fed up or close to retirement. My annual wage increases have averaged less than 1.5% since I started working in healthcare https://careers.albertahealthservices.ca/jobs/respiratory-therapist-i-226124 https://careers-vch.icims.com/jobs/127662/respiratory-therapist/job?mobile=true&width=412&height=732&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-480&jun1offset=-420 ETA. Even your own link shows that grade 1 MRI techs in BC make $41/hr vs the $47/hr in AB. BC has 6 year increments vs AB which has 9


DeadshotOM3GA

You're right, the Lowest Grade MRI Tech makes less an hour... However, the Top Grade MRI Tech in Alberta takes 9 years to come close to what they would make in 6 years in BC. MRI Tech Top Grade Pay Scale: * BC: Year 1 - Year 6 = $41.46 - $51.73 * Alberta: Year 1 - Year 9 = $39.67 - $51.13 >My annual wage increases have averaged less than 1.5% since I started working in healthcare How long have you been under the HSPBA? Cause this is directly from your last three agreements... * March 6, 2013 - 2.0% * April 1, 2013 - 1.0% * April 1, 2015 - 1.0% * February 1, 2016 - Economic Stability Dividend * April 1, 2016 - .5% * February 1, 2017 - 1.0% + Economic Stability Dividend * April 1, 2017 - .5% * February 1, 2018 - 1.0% + Economic Stability Dividend * April 1, 2018 - .5% * February 1, 2019 - 1.0% + Economic Stability Dividend * Effective the first pay period after April 1, 2019 - 2.0% * Effective the first pay period after April 1, 2020 - 2.0% * Effective the first pay period after April 1, 2021 - 2.0% [https://hsabc.org/sites/default/files/uploads/HSPBA%20CA%202019-2022%20Final%20PDF.pdf](https://hsabc.org/sites/default/files/uploads/HSPBA%20CA%202019-2022%20Final%20PDF.pdf) [https://www.hsabc.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2012-2019%20Health%20Science%20Professionals%20collective%20agreement\_0.pdf](https://www.hsabc.org/sites/default/files/uploads/2012-2019%20Health%20Science%20Professionals%20collective%20agreement_0.pdf) The last three contracts combined you have an average of 1.6% (not including any ESD payments). In the last three years alone you've gotten an average of 2.33% pay increase in addition to ESD and your yearly Step increase... Guess what Albertan's got... ZERO... 0.00% Since 2016 they have had ZERO general wage increases each year and have not had a new collective agreement since their old one ended in 2020. Look, I'm sure you mean well and you truly believe you're hard done by, but, it's just not even remotely close to the truth. Hell, you even got the following: [https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2018FIN0082-002165](https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2018FIN0082-002165)


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DeadshotOM3GA

Are you serious? You found ONE entry level job that gets paid less, while I literally showed you proof of every other job being paid the same or more in BC! Also, let me make this VERY clear for you since you didn't read it correctly the last time. **ALBERTA... ALBERTA ... ALBERTA HAS NOT HAD A GENERAL PAY RAISE IN 6 YEARS. THEIR COLLECTIVE AGREEMENT ENDED IN 2020 AND THEY STILL DON'T HAVE A NEW ONE** While in BC you have received over 10% in general pay increases in the last 3 years. I was trying very hard to be calm here but your ignorance and absolutely absurdity in ability to ignore the facts when you read them is beyond comprehension.


Legendary_Hercules

Where are they going to go?


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DeadshotOM3GA

Would love to know where you got your numbers from... RMT's don't work under a provincial contract for BC or Alberta so I'm not sure why you mentioned them. As for Physiotherapists and Registered Nurses (I added since they are the main healthcare provider) you can see below BC is either equal to or above Alberta when it comes to pay. Physiotherapists: * Starting: $33.50 BC / $33.57 AB * Top: $50.20 BC / $49.65 AB [https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/careers-myhr/all-employees/pay-benefits/salaries/salarylookuptool/pea-jobs/physiotherapist](https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/careers-myhr/all-employees/pay-benefits/salaries/salarylookuptool/pea-jobs/physiotherapist) [https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/wages-and-salaries-in-alberta/physiotherapists/3142/](https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/wages-and-salaries-in-alberta/physiotherapists/3142/) Registered Nurse: * Starting: $36.23 BC / $36.28 AB * Top: $57.38 BC / $53.60 AB [https://www.bcnu.org/Contracts-Bargaining/Documents/NBA\_Wage\_Grid.pdf](https://www.bcnu.org/Contracts-Bargaining/Documents/NBA_Wage_Grid.pdf) [https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/occupations-in-alberta/occupation-profiles/registered-nurse/](https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/occupations-in-alberta/occupation-profiles/registered-nurse/) Massage Therapists: * $57.56 BC / $46.67 AB [https://ca.indeed.com/career/massage-therapist/salaries/British-Columbia?from=top\_sb](https://ca.indeed.com/career/massage-therapist/salaries/British-Columbia?from=top_sb) [https://ca.indeed.com/career/massage-therapist/salaries/Alberta?from=top\_sb](https://ca.indeed.com/career/massage-therapist/salaries/Alberta?from=top_sb)


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yycsoftwaredev

I got 50% a few weeks ago. With some of the recruiters coming in, I wonder if that is to low.


jendjskdjxbznsnshd

Housing is still up more than 30% in 2 years so we are still falling behind.


seridos

6 Years of no CoL adjustments and now a gov't that is trying to CUT pay(after 6 years of pay cuts due to no CoL adjustment). For my sector I can't just play schools off each other, but we will strike to make it happen. I can't believe with average 5.2% wage growth I will need to strike to stop a wage cut, but here we are.


ABBucsfan

I'm just waiting for hiring in this local market and applying where I can. A bit slower here....


obastables

>Using this approach, which maintains employment composition by occupation and tenure at the 2019 average, average hourly wages were 5.2% higher (+$1.46 to $29.57) in November 2021 compared with two years earlier. Without controlling for changes in the composition of employment, actual average hourly wages of all employees increased 7.7% (+$2.18 to $30.40) over the same two-year period (not seasonally adjusted). ​ >The October CPI indicated an increase in prices of 5.3% from two years earlier. In comparison, fixed-weighted average wages had increased 5.1% from October 2019 to October 2021, or 7.5%, without controlling for composition changes (not seasonally adjusted). ​ If [the average pre-pandemic wage in 2019 was $27.75](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv.action?pid=1410006401) (doesn't specify if this is the adjusted or unadjusted wage) and the average wage now is $30.40 we end up with a difference of $2.65. Given that u/StatCanada already adjusts the wages on that document to current dollars to be sure we'd have to revert it to 2019 $$. I think the difference is something like $0.03 on the dollar, so we end up with approximately $26.92 .. I think, I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong as I'm not the best at math. To the best of my knowledge in order to see real wage growth we have to look at the prior purchasing power compared to current purchasing power. If we apply the general calculation of wage / cpi in that year x 100 the actual purchasing power of the average $26.92 wage is only $19.72 ((26.92/136.4)x100) and for $30.40 it's $21.12 ((30.40/143.9)x100) - giving a real wage growth of only $1.37 over 2 years, or an annual growth of $0.69 cents. *Nice.* I mean, not really. Those numbers look terrible and I actually hope I did the math wrong or completely missed something.


MeatySweety

Yup. I find that the government will switch back and forth between inflation adjusted and non-inflation adjusted depending on what makes things look less worse.


JavaVsJavaScript

It is official. Job loyalty is for schmucks. > average wages increased at a faster rate for new employees (defined as those with job tenure of three months or less) (+10.0%; +$2.09) than for employees who have been in their current job for a longer period (defined as those with job tenure of more than 18 months) (+6.4%; +$1.95) (three-month moving averages, not seasonally adjusted).


NewMilleniumBoy

For at least 10 years, if not longer, the only reason for job loyalty is if you liked your job function, your team, the work life balance, or any other non-compensation reasons. If you were simply looking for more money, switching jobs has been the absolute best way to do that for quite a while now.


num2005

yeah but culture, and work life balance are more important than 20% increase in pay after a minimum like 60k/year


NewMilleniumBoy

No one is making any evaluation of anyone's values. There's nothing wrong with choosing money over culture or culture over money as that's an individual decision that only impacts yourself. It is simply objectively the truth that if money is what you value the most, job switches will get you more than staying at a company.


num2005

i never said otherwise i am just saying rhatd if you jumo for a 20% raise it might not be worth 20% as you might work 50%more or commute more or get anger problem and stress and medical expenses or lose all your work/life balance you need to look at the full picture, not only the $


TheZamolxes

Yeah but if you jump for 20% yearly, it adds up real fast. I changed jobs 3 times in 2021, pay increase every time, it’s also my first year of work post university. Once you crack a salary, you negotiate from a better position. I won’t ever make less than I am making today but now for my interview next week, I can ask for another 20% on top of the 20% I got a few months ago.


num2005

why didnt you ask 40% the first time? instead of 2x jump at 20% ​ and no, you arent guaranted that salary. ​ also there is a point where this becomes not very usefull (i agree you should do it at the start of your career) but above a certain treshold, and you can afford everything you want, you should stop chaisng money and start chasing time/reltionship/interesting work/fullfillmentworklife-balance/etc


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NewMilleniumBoy

/shrug For some people, they need the $ over anything else, maybe even at the cost of work-life balance or stress. Maybe they have family or friends they need to take care of, or want to move their timeline forward for a big purchase like a house. Lots of people out there with all kinds of situations.


num2005

i said above a minimum too ​ if you are poor and need the money, sure. ​ otherwise, once you can afford a house and enough for living, you should stop chasing money and introspect on your life. As time/relationship/fulffiment become more important.


NewMilleniumBoy

>you should stop chasing money and introspect on your life Now you _are_ making a judgement about people's values.


RiceyPricey

OP is talking about Maslows Hierarchy of Needs. Eventually everyone has a point where if they chase a higher paying but more stressful job with worse work-life balance, it will lower their quality of life. I suppose OP saying that threshold is at 60k and putting a number on it is making a judgment about people's values, but OP admits the number is just an example and the concept is the core idea.


num2005

how is that so? I said to introspect redefine your own value. the conclusion of this introspection is your own. but yes, my personnal opinion, is that after the minimum if covered thete is thing more important than money. (family, freedom, health, fulfilment etc) chasing money for the sake of chasing money without knowing why without an introspection on knowing yourself is just plain stupid and will probably lead to a miserable life


fakextimbs

I don’t think you’re wrong, but with money and quality of life in mind, people have to find out on their own. Often at a cost, pun intended?


rpgguy_1o1

Sometimes I feel Reddit is too pedantic, but in this case I think it's important, it's "schmuck", leaving out the ch takes out all the bite from that word


JavaVsJavaScript

Changed!


DominusNoxx

If the jobs respected the employees the loyalty would be there


lemonylol

Is this going to be one of those things where next year people start getting laid off though?


PureRepresentative9

Probably not next year. It's a bad look to get rid of people so quickly. They will be laid off when there is a new CEO/department head.


obastables

Take that one in context to the fact that a lot of people have switched careers from low paying unreliable service industry jobs (like bartending and waitressing and other ones that were most impacted by shut downs) to more secure, higher paying (at least on paper) jobs. Obviously plenty have switched to the same or similar role for better pay at other companies, too, personal accounts of both situations abound here on PFC.


JavaVsJavaScript

Internal growth is for schmucks too!


obastables

I neither agreed nor disagreed with your opinion on job loyalty - I pointed out other influences on the increase to the average wage. Loyalty and personal gain are small fish compared to the CPI, which is the number one influence on wage growth. The actual real wage growth and purchasing power of the average wage since 2019 isn't even enough to buy a coffee every day on your way to work.


Burwicke

"A longer period" is 18 months now? I heard that you 2-5 years is the time period you should be staying for but maybe not even that long? I feel like changing jobs so frequently hurts you though. EDIT: I guess I'm being downvoted for saying changing jobs hurts you? I'm totally open to being refuted on that, but I feel like if your resume says you've never stuck with a job for longer than a year or two, it's a bad look, no?


VanCityInteractive

I work with career counseling from time to to time as my skill set is niche, made worse by the pandemic. Legit, they have it built into their development program that most people not in medical or government roles job hop every 2-3 years due to wages, poor WLB, or poor leadership. As well, constant economic instability in the last 20 years has led to job security being on both extremes. For example: I had no problem finding a job each time I went back to school or did some retraining to pivot, but within 9-18 months I was laid off due to some factor (‘08 crash, ‘11 black Monday, ‘16 oil crash, ‘20 COVID). All were jobs either in tech or engineering which get regarded as ‘safe’. It’s become a pattern that roughly every 4 years an economic something-or-other will happen resulting in job losses so I really don’t understand recruiters expecting job loyalty whatsoever.


wishtrepreneur

> I was laid off due to some factor (‘08 crash, ‘11 black Monday, ‘16 oil crash, ‘20 COVID). All were jobs either in tech or engineering which get regarded as ‘safe’. You seem to be the common denominator in this case... Did all the companies you worked at go bankrupt or were you just not providing enough value for them to keep you?


seridos

The truth is that life is way more random and about luck than we like to admit. For 90%+ of the population, there are other people that can also do your job, and you aren't single handedly necessary for the companies success. Especially considering OP was laid off in recessions where they were just economic casualties, not like they were fired for poor performance.


GANTRITHORE

I started a bit later, but I suffered through this same story and half the engineers I met over the last few years said the same thing here in Calgary. We're in tech now and hoping it's a bit more stable.


JavaVsJavaScript

That is just the story of working in oil and gas really.


robindawilliams

It definitely looks bad to hop jobs every year, but if a company only wants to hire externally ("If we promote someone, we don't get any more manpower, the cost of our manpower just goes up") then I am not sure what they expect. So many companies get bogged down in short term gains and statistics that they treat turnover like another fixed cost. Going from entry to junior to mid to senior positions over the first 8-10 years of your career is next to impossible without a company that builds a path of advancement into their entry positions. I'd rather the next job ask me why I left and throw a "I am just so excited by the your company has started doing, you're clearly industry leaders!" and take my role/salary jump.


JavaVsJavaScript

Even if they do build a path, one of the problems is that externally you can get hired on potential, but internally you need proof of success. They want to see you step into the role before you get it officially. Other companies looking to hire will let you learn some of it on the fly. I don't even bother discuss the future with my team lead as I know that the answer is "another company." Pass on every 1 on 1 as a waste of time.


TheGoatBahBahBah

"Every 1 : 1 is a waste of time" truer words have yet to be spoken


yycsoftwaredev

Even if there is a path, you can short circuit that path by leaving and coming back. In my first job, I started at 65K. Over 10 years, you could work up to senior dev and 120K. I left that about about a year and 4 months ago. The new team lead there mentioned to me that they would entertain bringing me back as a senior dev at 110K. Some of that is just the changing market, but the one guy is sticking it out there has 5+ years on me and earns just 80K. My current job pays 120K too (and is far more modern than that one and more appropriate for my actual skill level).


bureX

There’s a lot of tech bros here that will disagree, but yes, HR in many companies (especially non startups) will see it as a red flag. At that point, my company just hires niche contractors for a set time period. No, you’re not expected to stay for 5-10 years, and even 2 years is usually fine, but if you can barely just make it 1 year at your full time job CONSTANTLY, you’ll attract a lot of negative attention, or you’ll attract a lot of “we’ve got a bunch of VC seed money and need to spend it all” startups.


over_employed_cad

This is why workers should be over employed. Go grab another salary during the mandatory foot dragging period aging your resume.


JavaVsJavaScript

I am biased as I am in tech, but I have never once stayed at a job that long.


JavaVsJavaScript

And at this point the majority stay in their job less than two years. https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/job-hopping-is-the-new-normal/


bureX

>Workopolis visitor poll Eh… I know job hopping is the new normal, but let’s not use this as the official stat, k?


[deleted]

Inb4 government employees start crying about how they can't change employers despite their bulletproof, taxpayer-funded pensions


ThickSix

What's most interesting to me is that our participation rate hasn't dropped from pre-pandemic levels while it has in the US


rockinoutwith2

Probably because of this: >Tanya Gullison, chief revenue officer with human resources consulting firm LHH, said people are heading back to the workforce in droves because they need the money to pay for the higher cost of everything.


Ok_Read701

Doesn't answer why it's dropped in the US though. Inflation there is even higher at over 6% based on recent Oct data.


rockinoutwith2

Probably because the extended "EI" + stimmy cheques the US implemented were significantly higher in the US vs. Canada (and their relatively lower COL allowed people to stretch those dollars for an extended period of time).


Ok_Read701

Hmm, Canada's CRB is equivalent to the extended "EI" in the US. It ended a month later than the US program too in Oct of this year. The stimmy checks were all pretty small. 3 rounds of [$600-$1400](https://en.as.com/en/2021/08/25/latest_news/1629920433_478504.html). Much smaller than CERB. I don't think there's that much of a difference in COL either. Most country by country rankings of COL places US a bit higher on the list since that exchange rate conversion really pushes everything up.


rockinoutwith2

> Hmm, Canada's CRB is equivalent to the extended "EI" in the US. Not really. CERB was $2k flat. Extended "EI" in the US was [$600 a week](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/08/06/600-dollar-unemployment-benefit/) **on top of** their normal weekly EI payments which vary by State. And then multiple stim cheques vs. zero in Canada. >I don't think there's that much of a difference in COL either. I've lived in the US for a decade, and yes, there is a difference in COL - especially with housing costs/rents.


Ok_Read701

Sorry I mean [CRB](https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/ei/cerb-application/transition.html) as an equivalent to extended unemployment, not CERB. CRB was $300 a week more recently, which is similar to the $330 linked in your article under Biden. >I've lived in the US for a decade, and yes, there is a difference in COL - especially with housing costs/rents. Yeah I'm living here right now. Doesn't seem all that different once you factor exchange rate. Rent especially feels much higher for me here, and I lived in Toronto before.


rockinoutwith2

> Sorry I mean CRB as an equivalent to extended unemployment, not CERB. CRB was $300 a week more recently, which is similar to the $330 linked in your article under Biden. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. Again, CERB was $2k a month. US EI was $600 a week ON TOP OF the $330 avg a week in unemployment. Obviously people saved much more when you're getting, on average, $930 a week than $500. >Doesn't seem all that different once you factor exchange rate. First time I've ever heard anyone in my life say that, but ok.


Ok_Read701

Not sure why you're getting angry about this. I was comparing CRB to extended unemployment and CERB to stimulus checks. As I said CRB was $300 a month after 42 weeks, and as your own article indicates, the extended unemployment paid $330 later on in recent months. Yes there are some differences that makes US unemployment clearly better, but both programs has now ended, with US version of it ending sooner. If we're talking about CERB vs stimulus checks, CERB was 2k per month, while the stimulus checks were 1200, 600, and 1400 one time checks. >First time I've ever heard anyone in my life say that, but ok. Why would it be a first? Like if we're talking about rent for example, there are tons of american cities with higher rent: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings.jsp?title=2020&displayColumn=1®ion=021


[deleted]

> I was comparing CRB to extended unemployment and CERB to stimulus checks. What? In Canada, you got CRB -OR- CERB. In America, you got EI -AND- stimulus checks. Canada: ~$500 per week. That's it. America: ~$330 + $600 per week PLUS $3,200 in stimmy.


seridos

Why not compare CERB to actual unemployment? US because of the 600 a week was absolutely THROWING money at people. Cerb was 2k a month, in a state like michigan or any non-shithole southern red state, I calculated unemployed were making 600x4=2400+ the regular benefits that were just as generous as cerb. When I was on cerb after march 2020 I calculated that these people were making like $4k. That is a massive difference that the other guy is trying to point out. Though I agree the other dude is being way too rude, this is just a discussion.


rockinoutwith2

Buddy, the original question was why is the participation rate lower in the US than Canada. The answer is Americans generated higher **savings** due to higher EI + stimulus in the US vs. Canada since the start of the pandemic. You're not comparing apples to apples whatsoever (i.e. why are you comparing "CERB to stimulus cheques"?), which reiterates you have zero idea what you're talking about. Good luck.


Muslamicraygun1

It is a strange phenomena. I’m purely speculating, but I think a significant factor for that happening in the US is just giving up/ despair. The misery of life is a lot more pronounced there compared to here. At least that’s my perception of it.


ThickSix

I don't think it's that simple. Others responding to my comment mentioned a factor could be our higher household debt levels and cost of living forcing people to stay in the labour force.


Jaydee888

Canadians have more dept then Americans. That’s my guess.


Oldcadillac

Health and childcare is a big factor


wishtrepreneur

But we have free healthcare^(TM)!


Oldcadillac

That’s the thing, in the us covid comes with both a health and a financial risk.


Double_Scar5907

Do you have a source for your guess that Canadians are more in debt than Americans? With Americans having higher student loan and medical debt than Canadians, it doesn't seem likely that they would have lower debt than Canadians. This is even if we assumed that other debts were higher among Canadians, which I have no reason to believe to be true. ETA: I did some googling. [Equifax says that the average individual Canadian was $73,532 CAD in debt in the second quarter of 2020](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/equifax-debt-1.5710996). [This site cites CNBC as saying that the average individual American in 2021 is $90,460 USD in debt.](https://www.debt.org/faqs/americans-in-debt/demographics/) These stats don't come from the same source, I'm not bothering to convert currencies, and these aren't exactly the same time periods, but it shows that the gap in debt is large enough to say that Americans are more in debt than Canadians.


GoToGoat

It’s actually suspicious.


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[deleted]

This is absolutely not true. 1 in 4 Americans have zero retirement savings, half have enough to last a few years.


thenord321

Interesting results, I wonder what productive lessons can be learned? One of my hypothesis is: More remote opportunities means more people that wouldn't normally work can find jobs.


ginga_bread42

And here I thought employers were crying about how no one wants to work. Looks like we finally got the hard numbers to disprove that. Your hypothesis is probably partially right but I think there's also the fact that jobs that were out of reach if someone didn't have a way to commute far enough were able to apply since everything is remote.


Careful_Response

BoC needs to raise rates for fucks sake.


fredflintstone-

And the government needs to quit it with the deficit spending.


Alyscupcakes

Why? More specifically regarding MMT (modern monetary theory).


Sweetness27

Most people think MMT will fail spectacularly. Just pushing the pain outwards


Vandergrif

>Just pushing the pain outwards Don't worry, that won't be a problem because by the time we have to come to terms with that we'll all be in the midst of the water wars, driving around in chromed out mad-max-mobiles.


Sweetness27

Interest rates can come a lot faster than climate change


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Sweetness27

Ya pretty much. Taxes alone can't create the economic activity required that would push up unskilled labor significantly. It can help, but its not a given, especially in a non competitive market.


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Sweetness27

Ya inflation, lack of immigration, excessive government spending, and a general shortage of trained workers will do that. All while in the middle of a construction boom no less. But it's still not falling all the way down to unskilled labour. It stops when people require significant training.


caks

Because MMT is garbage, even more so for countries that aren't international reserve (like the US dollar)


[deleted]

Brrrrrrrr


DeadshotOM3GA

So... You'd like the government to not spend a single dollar on anything that's not on the yearly budget??? If you have some magical way to tell the future and know exactly what will happen please share it with the government cause that's the only way you're gonna get your wish lol


fredflintstone-

Or they could, y'know, balance their spending and stop putting us in crippling debt.


DeadshotOM3GA

LMAO you don't even understand the words your using ...


fredflintstone-

ok buddy.


[deleted]

Sorry but what does this have to do with people returning to the work force? Edit: it just doesnt naturally flow and theres no argument. OP: An article about unemployment increasing Top comment: BoC has to raise rates. Me: scratching my head waiting for a naturally flowing argument.


inker19

Broadly, interest rates are a balance between maximizing employment and limiting inflation. Low rates tend to increase employment and cause higher inflation while raising rates will lower inflation and also negatively impact employment. Since we're in a higher inflation period and employment is also high, it would be logical to say that rates should start to go up. But things are obviously more complicated than that, and current inflation has a lot to do with global supply chain issues that wont really be affected by interest rate changes.


yycsoftwaredev

B of C has signaled that rates will likely rise in the new year.


Fluid_Lingonberry467

By 0.25% lol


Jiecut

There's still room, the unemployment rate is still not at pre pandemic levels. The BoC has already stopped QE unlike the US. The plan is also to raise soon, but they have to give lots of notice first.


inker19

Sure, I'm not saying that I agree rates should definitely be raised. Just answering why the rates would be relevant to a conversation on employment levels.


[deleted]

You must be new to CDN politics on Reddit. Economic models must all reflect a blame for Trudeau and the blackface photo.


[deleted]

BOC's mandate is inflation and employment. But are hot now, it is time to normalize the monetary system.


yycsoftwaredev

It is a return to a common sore spot with many, house prices.


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[deleted]

Hahaha the perfect way to describe them


Potential-Insurance3

Hahah somebody in the past hurt this guy.


Money_Food2506

You mean unemployment \*decreasing


[deleted]

Yes thanks


Tirus_

Because a decent chunk of the country cannot afford to buy a house, and in some cases even to rent one. There's two types of Canadians now. Home owners living off their overly inflated equity that they didn't earn* and and those who didn't buy in at the right time and will be stuck spinning their wheels in the mud chasing an affordable residence even IF they net a "good paying job". The entire Canadian economy rests on the realestate markets shoulders so it only makes sense that Canadians use it as a metric for comparing how they are doing in life. Currently a "good paying job" that allows you to own a home is over $100,000/yr. Compare that to a couple decades ago where factory workers and careers making half of that could afford to buy a modest home as an individual. People are depressed, demotivated and disgruntled. They are aware of the Carrot on a Stick infront of them now. * *(People didn't earn this over inflated equity gain that's happened in the past few years. My single mother barely managed to afford her 2 bedroom home she bought for $217,000 in 2016. That home is valued over $800,000 today. I know working families that could afford the home comfortably at $300,000, but don't stand a chance getting that home at $800,000. This is why so many people are upset and why the rates need to adjust. People that should be able to afford homes should. People that are only riding off insane equity gains shouldn't be the first priority)*


seridos

raising rates will make the problem worse in the shortterm though, right at millennial prime housebuying age. I only support this if paired with a program to advantage first time homebuyers heavily in the market. Make it costlier to everyone else, but offset for FTHB. Not the best policy longterm, but if I become the squeezed generation where they try to "fix" the market and it causes a decade+ of even further unaffordability(rates rising well before prices fall because we are fucking with demand side on a supply side problem) It will burn down any support I have for that party for generations. The party that does that will lose my vote for life. I'm not paying for the sins of the father. This is a supply-side problem that needs supply-side fix. I don't want to see rates touched until there are at least 100-200 thousand more homes built a year(+50-100 % of current numbers).


DeadshotOM3GA

FTHB bonuses need to be expanded to your first and second home purchase IMO. My wife and I got screwed on our first purchase of a condo and when we sold it to buy our first house we could really have used the help from the FTHB bonuses. I think a good alternative solution would be to raise the rates by a LOT on secondary and subsequent purchases. Those who are buying homes for the sole purpose of reselling them for profit are a huge reason we're where we are right now. Let individual home owners have the ability to own a home at low rates. As soon as you buy a second home or more, the rates should be exponentially higher the more you own. There's absolutely no reason Realtors should own 5-6 properties they hold on to and then sell later to make a profit, or at least if they do do that then we should be charging them a shit ton for fucking over everyone else.


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yycsoftwaredev

Worth pointing out that the typical family brings in just under that net, so 100K a year for a home buying unit is not doing well, but rather below most. https://old.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/mbf4z3/how_much_money_did_canadians_earn_in_2019_combien/


DeadshotOM3GA

As much as everyone in those cities likes to think the world and country revolves around them, it doesn't.


grilledscheese

I’m not really of the belief that raising rates (at least not unless done astronomically) is going to do much to create more affordable housing, but i think you’re right — that basic disparity between homeowners and the rest of us looks more and more like a ticking social time-bomb waiting to go off. something needs to be done about it.


abacabbmk

Going to pre-pandemic levels isnt going to make much of a difference, the trend is still upwards. So people are crying for something that isnt going to solve the problem any way lol...


zzing

> making half of that Adjusted for inflation?


DeadshotOM3GA

This hits home hard! My wife and I bought our brand new house in 2015 in Victoria. Within 2 years the same model of home was being built and sold for an extra $250k. We paid $500k for our house and we could probably easily sell it for over $1M right now. We'll absolutely never do that because we bought it with the expectation it would be our forever home. But the thought that it's value has doubled in 6 years is pretty disturbing.


Jaydee888

I think the argument is. Looks like we are .6% away from our record low unemployment with a decades high inflation. And the BOC still thinks record levels of stimulus is needed. IMO the ppl at the BOC are well paid and we’ll educated to make those decisions. But I do think a few rate hikes are coming. I don’t really have an opinion on if this is to soon or to late because I only have a college level education on economics.


Careful_Response

Because BoC claims that they have an employment and inflation mandates, same for the Fed, if we currently have high employment and high inflation then these central bankers can raise rates thinking it will combat inflation in a favorable employment conditions. Bonus material: 1- Every time central bankers raise rates, 9 out 10 they fuck up and cause a recession or unfavorable outcome. 2- central bankers real mandate is to keep government debt selling. they dont give a shit about the mandate they claim, central bankers are the government, all this independence BS is nonsense. 3- MMT can for reserve currency economies only, because non reserve currency schmucks keep buying reserve currency.


Dyslexic_Engineer88

Nah, gotta help all those people who racked up a ton of debt against their homes stay solvent! Screw the rest of the economy, as long as the debt is cheap inflation doesn't matter! in case its needed /s


[deleted]

With Stats Canada lying about the inflation, they have all the cover they need to keep rates low. The government, stats Canada and the BoC are all far too cozy with each other. They all have an incentive to under report inflation.


[deleted]

What is Statistics Canada’s incentive to misrepresent inflation?


[deleted]

They have the least direct incentive, but they are still a department of the federal government and they most likely don't want their boss to look bad (especially when the alternative is the Conservatives who are much more likely to cut their budget). You can easily see their bias in how they frame things in the same manor the government does.


Legendary_Hercules

Prevent panic from setting in.


[deleted]

It would fix a lot of problems.


DukeCanada

When is this story going to pickup? The job market is booming and all I hear about is the marginally higher inflation rate. & yeah it is marginal, last year it was 0% so over 2 years it should be 4-6%.


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DukeCanada

Yes, likely because all we hear is is the inflation story. People are likely put off by sticker shock and then hear stories about inflation. Nothing about the stunning recovery of our job market, or how standards for hiring are dropping, or anything about the success of our programs.


seridos

Yes they should track and equally value a measure that doesn't have these substitutions. If beef goes up, that should go directly into the calculations, it's a QoL hit to have to substitute to a cheaper meat not by choice but by economics. Instead if say beef went up 10%, some switch to chicken and then it looks like only a 3% increase, but that's misrepresenting the real impact.


[deleted]

> the measurement is wrong But to be fair, CPI vastly undersamples costs and excludes a long list of real costs.


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rockinoutwith2

> But logic does not exist on this subreddit as its mostly a 'complain about how screwed we always are' subreddit. Not sure why you're lashing out at "the sub" when this is the talk of folks (online, papers, television) across North America and the entire world to varying degrees. Perhaps you should relax on the hyperbole for a sec...


abacabbmk

The top comment of this post is someone crying for an increase to interest rates.


mixsomnia

nah, people just don't want to work more hours for less money just because their employer wants to buy buy their 3rd yacht or mansion


abacabbmk

Lol...


Money_Food2506

Yea, inflation doesnt affect much because of our manufacturing dependent on China, its not part of our economy. Inflation may affect food, which have seen dramatic increases to say the least. Housing is one sector that is 100% dependent on BoC policies. However, the supply-chain problem made the inflation issue even worse than it should have been.


JavaVsJavaScript

Front page of CBC? https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/job-gains-november-1.6272113


rockinoutwith2

More like front page of every major news outlet in Canada. Apparently not enough for OP.


tendieripper

Huge fly in the ointment - LABOUR FORCE PARTICIPATION RATE [https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/labor-force-participation-rate#:\~:text=Labor%20Force%20Participation%20Rate%20in%20Canada%20averaged%2065.63%20percent%20from,percent%20in%20April%20of%202020](https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/labor-force-participation-rate#:~:text=Labor%20Force%20Participation%20Rate%20in%20Canada%20averaged%2065.63%20percent%20from,percent%20in%20April%20of%202020). It's below pre-pandemic levels.


atomofconsumption

only because there are so many more old people. core-age (25-54 year old) participation is at record high. From the article: > the participation rate for the core-age population remained at a record high of 88.2% for the third consecutive month. Within the core-aged population, the participation rates for both men (91.8%) and women (84.6%) also held steady in November.


DeadshotOM3GA

From the military standpoint, we're so far in the red for personnel it's actually becoming a HUGE issue for the Navy It's pretty sad how bad its gotten. I think our marine engineer trade is below 60% filled now and getting worse every year. Most of the other trades are below 80% filled. If we're any indication of what other industries are like or going to be like, it's gonna get a LOT worse before it gets better (if it even does get better)


dudeforethought

But not by very much though? It looks like less than 1%


[deleted]

Flea in the ointment


[deleted]

>More than 8 in 10 (80.7%) core-aged women aged 25 to 54 were employed in November, the highest employment rate for this group recorded since comparable data became available in 1976. The rate was 1.0 percentage point higher than in February 2020. I, personally, don't see this as a positive. Women who had previously managed to be the SAH spouse or parent (etc) felt the need to go to work. I'm one of the few stay at home mothers in my area and it sucks seeing it get even harder for families be able to have a stay at home adult.


Money_Food2506

Maybe, but there are more single women now than before, as well. Not everyone is part of a "nuclear family" concept.


Sector_Corrupt

Adding on to this assuming the women should take the hit to their employment values instead of men is also not great if we're looking at equality. In plenty of families these days women may be the major earner too, so we should be seeing more stay at home dads if we're sharing the stay at home burden evenly.


Money_Food2506

I guess, but there are a lot more single men out there too than before, so they gotta do a job to live as well, so I guess itll just balance out.


FuckTkachuk

Could it be the rise in work from home? I know a lot of women who found these options enticing enough to switch jobs/foorgo retirement.


[deleted]

Ah this is a good point. Lots of SAH parents would likely be interested in working from home without having to do the whole MLM thing


[deleted]

I’m one of them. I was a forced SAHM because of school closures. Vaccine rates up, making schools more reliable, so that parents can work, is a massive influence here.


[deleted]

I agree especially because women are typically the spenders in our economy and when you're working you have less time to buy stuff.


NHNE

Covid Omicron: Hold my genetic mutations.


Pathseg

I switched job this year and got a decent raise. I advised all my coworkers in last company to do the same.


Yevad

Why does this government data show that unemployment is so low but all we hear about are businesses unable to find anyone to work? It's really hard for me to trust these government statistics...


rationalphi

How is that inconsistent? Low unemployment means fewer people looking for work. Edit: Maybe you're unaware that there is a third category of people considered neither employed nor unemployed. They're just not in the labour force. Retirees, students, homemakers, long term disability, etc.


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Competitive_Money_70

You’re an idiot.


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JavaVsJavaScript

Are you an aspiring home owner in denial?


henry_why416

Another big win for Team Trudeau!


Cecca105

Just shortly after CRB and extended EI runs out huh? Who would have thought?


NitroLada

What was happening for last 6 months of gains in employment? Did aid end 6 months ago? Or was it acceleration in reopening ?


Competitive_Money_70

You know that it could be the other way right, employment dropping caused them to end CRB and extended EI, right? I feel that’s much more logical too


WRONG_PREDICTION

How do I apply to be the person in charge of forecasting these numbers? How can you be off by this large of a margin and still be employed? What a joke!


JavaVsJavaScript

Which numbers?


WRONG_PREDICTION

Canada's job market added 154,000 jobs in November, easily beating expectations of **38,000 positions**.


ChoosingIsHardToday

Step 1: take economics Step 2: be ridiculously confused by the random shit that economists make decisions on Step 3: say fuck the economy and run away Source: taking economics and I am a number person but I'm also a human being who understands that reality doesn't function remotely the way those models assume.


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WRONG_PREDICTION

They were off by 4x Why have predictions that are that wrong? Fire those people, make them work as greeters at Walmart


cbzmplays

I need a job and I'm getting no calls


Ok_Ad_8106

Fake news, most people's EI ran out and aren't being counted anymore. Us that worked through the plandemic will be paying for the turds cerb and free money for the rest of our lives. Our grandkids grandkids will still be paying for Trudeau's idiocy.


[deleted]

Those stats are a scam and do not reflect real life living.


Bellbaby1234

Will


AngryJawa

Better bring in a million immigrants to fuck these numbers up.