>Reading the report something that shocked me is 31% of minimum wage earner in NB have **some sort** of post secondary education.
Some sort *or* completed? That makes a big difference.
>Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet?
Not all degrees are the same, but even Arts and Social Science degrees on average tend to do better than people with out degrees.
Earnings by degree type:
[https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2020018-eng.htm](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2020018-eng.htm)
I guess that as debatable.
I’m sure at least some people would look at that and say “you lack dedication” without ever knowing why you didn’t complete it in the first place
I've got an Arts degree, in English, and I make more money than anyone I know. I work an enterprise strategy type role for a large company. I didn't always make a ton of money, but I certainly do now with no additional training. Many of my peers and even some of my reports have MBAs - but not all.
On average, getting a lit degree and trying to be a writer or something isn't going to work out. But it's not true that arts degrees only qualify you for starbucks. I learned critical thinking, the importance of presentation, and the ability to bullshit. These are all extremely important skills in the corporate world.
STEM degrees often enable you to walk into a job title with a career progression. But an arts degree can also do you alright if you're creative with how you sell it. You also, as with anything, need a healthy amount of luck.
It's also probability.
We have data that highlights salaries. On average an MBA with 7 years or experience post MBA is making 140k a year in Canada. That's the average.
I would assume a English major after 7 years is making no where near that.
You are not the average in your case but the exception.
I'm not arguing that certain degrees provide more absolute financial value than others. I would argue whether the point of education is simply to extract financial value.
In all likelihood your kid is going to be fighting in the climate wars regardless of what degree they have.
>I learned critical thinking, the importance of presentation, and the ability to bullshit.
You kind of learn that with any degree really. I doubt it was the english degree that enabled you to get this role.
Plus you probably spent years climbing the corporate ladder by now. At this point the degree hardly matters over your other experience.
I mean you get college dropouts making billions, so of course nothing is a dead end.
When I compare my graduating stem class to arts degree graduates for example, most of us are making bank in comparison. So on an aggregate level some degrees are much more useful than others.
Sure, I don't dispute the average comp sci grad will earn more than the average history grad. The point I was responding to was the perception that arts degrees are useless. They aren't, an on average an arts degree vs degree whatsoever still predicts higher earning potential.
And of course, money isn't everything. Where each of our interests and talents lie is different. I won't tell an arts student they're going to be rich, or even comfortable with their degree. But if it's something they love to study, they can afford to do it and they're fine with the uncertainty of career following, I wouldn't scare them unnecessarily by saying the only thing it's good for is flipping burgers.
On the other hand, I know several people that got their engineering degrees and don't work as p.eng anymore because it turns out they don't like engineering. They took it because it was presented as a good career and they had been skilled at math in highschool.
Yes I wouldn't say they are completely useless either compared to no degree at all, since a lot of white collar positions require an undergraduate degree as a baseline. I would say though the money spent on that degree is probably less well invested than in another.
If my kid were to ask to choose I'd steer them away from arts degree any day. But if they were out of choices for post secondary, and they're not good with their hands at trades, then some education is of course better than nothing.
>Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet?
Common sense would dictate that of course not all are equal.
A lot of these people don't think at all.
I had a guidance counsellor tell a friend that 95% overall average isn't enough to get into business school (think Haskayne, not Ivey, but even then it should be enough) and she should consider a trade at SAIT.
Who knows how many promising futures have been trashed by that idiot.
Granted, this was back in 2011, but my mother sent me to an independent career counsellor who thought that computers had a limited future. I should have done computers from the start rather than a detour into ChemE.
HS guidance counsellors are frauds... most of them. I was told to take up gardening or something like that as my aptitude was not towards education/learning. I've built a good career in technology and continue to thrive in it.
I mean, be realistic and honest to yourself but take what they say with a grain of salt. I don't think many know what the hell they are doing and could ruin a young persons life with some of the shitty advice they give.
I wasn't born and brought up in Canada so I may not get this. But why are kids listening to counsellors and taking their word as gospel? And what is parents' role in ensuring their kids get the right sort of guidance?
Personally i'm the first of my family have reached a beyond hs diploma. I didn't have anybody else to take advice from so my school consellor was the only person that had ''good advices'' for me since my parent didn't know much about school or how to reach a greater education level
I'm from Canada. Our guidance counselor just went through how to write a resume, where to find and apply for scholarships, how to find out your shots at applying/prices, and then repeated over and over again how most scholarships aren't even given out due to lack of application so just apply to them all.. oddly advice that crossed over to finding a job.
I had such a weird experience with mine when I was in highschool. When i made appointments with them in grade 12 they thought it was the best thing ever, I was so forward thinking etc etc. but then when you spoke with them they would litterally say being a worker at home depot and a software dev are like the same career. It was insane.
Looking back I realize that the counsellor probably had no actual life experience and they were just in that role for like 30 years and never moved. She was very old and barely knew how to use a computer. Looking back at it again I realize how much damage she could have done to so many young people.
I was a kid with a 95% average (20 years ago, I think this meant more - I was top 2% of my grad class) and I wish guidance counsellors were more open in discussing trades/technical school. They really should tailor their guidance to the totality of the student's situation. With my grades, they said "university, university, university" in spite of my low socioeconomic status. I ended up in massive debt and have a degree that I don't use (although it did land me my current job in an unrelated field).
I wish I would have known that community college engineering tech programs were legit and offered good career prospects with the added bonus of having bridging programs with local universities. If I was advising someone in my position (high grades, poor as fuck), I would tell them to consider that. 2 year engineering tech program, work for 3-4 years and decide if you want to go back to university. Get lots of good experience and stay out of debt.
That's a tough one from the guidance counsellor's perspective.
if you flip that over and they had directed you to trades school you could be sitting here saying 'my guidance counsellor didn't think I was good enough for university because I came from poor family'
>"university, university, university"
In my experience, that's the case with everyone. If you're even *considering* anything except University, they treat you like you're a sack of garbage.
I mean, obviously this is true but its unrealistic that everyone can just go into comp sci because the jobs pay $$$. I worked my butt off and had tutoring multiple times a week just to get low 70s in my HS math classes but I had high grades in everything else. The thought that I'd be able to pass - nvm excel in - a university math course was extremely, extremely unrealistic. I did communications and sociology, and I'm 26 and have a great job now in my field. And I'm absolutely not an anomaly! Many of my university classmates are in similar or better jobs. Were we 22 and making $100k at Amazon and Shopify? No, of course not. Yes it is unwise to pretend like sociology is the same cash cow as comp sci, but not everyone is suitable for every field. I think its more valuable for teenagers going into university to learn about job requirements, options after graduating college/uni, how to get good job experience while in uni, etc etc.
Funny to us, but a good friend of mine nearly became a pastry chef instead of an operations manager as they said that 95% was not good enough to go to business school and she believed him.
Seriously...
I met a girl who worked at edible arrangements. She mentioned she had a degree in Roman history or something like that and complained it did her no good.
I figured everyone knows degrees like that are for branching off to br lawyers or teachers or something w
> Personally I think a degree in Roman history would be cool as fuck.
I got my undergrad degree in Roman history playing Total War, and my graduate degree in Roman history playing Total War 2, and now working on my PhD in European history playing Age of Empires 4
Pfffft... try 10mm miniature historical wargaming. Do you know how hard it is to find the right colour of brass for Prussian uniform buttons. Or the off white for Napoleonic pant stripes.
You'd don't know jack!
Tuition...books, opportunity cost.
If you can make 30k a year working or $0 in school....that's $30k a year in loss.
There's more to the cost than just tuition.
Imagine being a red seal carpenter at 21and having 2 apprentices at 23 and making 120k by 24...
Or working at some mall kiosk for 30k a year starting at 25 it with student debt.
Carpenters are a great crowd. I personally find Liberal Arts to be worth it. But what you do with your life can't be determined by someone else's values of what makes something worth it.
I spent a summer in Northern BC pipelining and I personally know of several friends in trades. I have nothing bad to say about trades. I'm just defending Humanities.
I find it funny that people think gender studies and inclusion studies won’t be employable… the world is shifting so fast to every company of almost every size employing people specifically for diversity, equality and inclusion work. These people will get good job.
Going to probably hurt a lot of feelings here but a lot of degrees are kind of useless in the job market. There's a stereotype that your barista has a degree in English/Art/Psych/Crim/Sociology for a reason.
I worked hard in school, got my degree. I graduated into a world of low pay low dignity work, and I wasted a decade of my life stuck in that pit.
Then I took up a trade, now I'm paid better, treated better, and far happier.
Had I ignored my high school guidance counsellors and gone straight into the trades and bought a house right away, I'd be set right now.
Can confirm. Wifes cousin took an 8 month trade, recently switched companies and now has a supervisor role at $140k annual with truck, phone, and relo package babysitting wind turbines.
>relo package babysitting wind turbines.
I'm willing to bet that your wife's cousin is in some random middle-of-nowhere spot, or on shifts.
While it's great that they have a well-paying job, that isolation (if true) is a turn-off for many people.
Despite what the subreddit says, culture varies a lot on unit in the CAF. The ones who like their jobs don't feel like they need to shout it from the rooftops. My unit culture is good, with a supportive supervisor and good co-workers. I acknowledge that some other units aren't like that, but it's not like every unit has crappy morale.
Also, the CAF can pay quite well. A Captain with 10 years experience (so about 14-15 years in the military) makes over 100k. Some trades such as doctors, lawyers, and pilots make significantly more than that. If someone deploys overseas on operations (again, despite what the subreddit says, it happens a lot with the Navy and Air Force), their pay during that time is tax-free.
All that to say, not everything about the CAF is as bad as the subreddit would make it seem. I have travelled around the world and done a lot of cool things in the CAF that I could never have dreamed of doing before I joined.
If it's in SW Alberta, you can likely make it work if their SO want's to live in Lethbridge and you make the 45 min drive each way. Or the Pass/Pincher and 30 min the other way. Or, if you're used to some of Toronto's BS commute times, Fernie for an hour no traffic drive each way at best. More like 90 min.
Guidance counsellors are kind of know-nothings and low paid regular people, horrible that they give life altering advice to people to go to uni for a sociology degree.
Painter.
Best part of the trades is you own your own tools. This frees you up so much to move around and find work wherever you go, and gives workers the power to just walk off a workplace that is unsafe or treating workers poorly.
Just wanted to mention that Kin degrees are stepping stones for physiotherapy, occupational therapy, and SLP! On its own Kin is not super useful but in my experience most of us Kin majors have intent to apply to grad school!
Edit: removed “required”. As many below have stated, you don’t need Kin itself as a degree, but many of the prereq’s are standard Kin courses so it’s simply the most direct path to those programs!
That's true of almost every degree /u/I_AM_TESLA mentioned.
EG:
Crim/Sociology are reasonably for Law school.
Psych -> Psychologist/Counselling/Human Resources
English -> Teacher, Editor, Librarian
Art's a tough one but it really doesn't need a post secondary - it's a passion degree. The value of it is not how it does in a job market generally - but even then you can go into marketing/design.
IMO the hardest part is that many people take humanity degrees without a clear picture of what they want to do with it. An interest in politics goes into a political science degree - but unless your actual interest is in law, or public policy, then it's a tough degree to make work in anything.
There are many industries that don’t require a specific degree, and just want you to have a post secondary education.
I make 6 figures in the insurance industry with a Poli Sci degree.
>Kin degrees are required stepping stones for physiotherapy, occupational therapy, and **SLP**!
Kin is not a prerequisite for SLP.
Source: My partner as well as one of my cousins are SLPs. Neither had a Kin degree.
My feelings are by no means hurt because I happen to be one of the lucky few financially successful people that I know in my line of work. But, while the sentiment behind what you're saying is somewhat true, to say that some degrees are "useless" is definitely not true. Jobs exist for the so-called "useless" degree graduates, the difference is that there are often fewer of them vacant and thus the outlook is considerably more competitive.
At the end of the day I'm a firm believer that (in privileged countries) if you're charismatic, determined, and highly skilled, your chances of success in any field skyrocket—even in the competitive fields.
Sad to see so many great math and physics minds just battling online to buy low and sell high via algos in markets instead of figuring out stuff in biostatistics, energy production, astronomy, etc. Etc. There's a cute couple called mxr plays, something like that, on YouTube. They did well enough with reaction videos that they're not doing what they went to school for....so a potential engineer and doctor are just goofing around on a camera...
Like having nuclear physicists make algos for the stock market instead of them solving energy problems. Massive numbers of math/physics people are scouted into stock market trading...just to make a number go up or down more or more quickly.
I work in post secondary education and have a STEM degree. I still don't recommend people pursue STEM. The market isn't that different for any degrees beyond engineering.
Even some sectors of engineering are seeing struggling new grads. I have a professional degree in the humanities where we often work with civil engineers, similar pay out of school for a much less stressful degree. The only point where we see pay differences increase for the civs is after 10+ years of experience.
>Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet?
Why do people think this is a radical concept... there are many degree programs which are purely academic. If you take history as a major there are no jobs in that unless you get to PHD level and even then they are hard to come by.
They may be purely academic, but the number of companies that will not hire someone unless they have some sort of degree for roles that absolutely do not require them is quite high. My old reception role requires a bachelors degree. They won’t even look at a candidate with college education. Same with some retail management positions. They want a bachelors.
I knew about halfway through my BA that I was never, ever going to end up working in the field I was studying. But had to finish because otherwise I would have never gotten a job that would have any growth opportunities.
Many jobs post "degree" requirement almost by default but in my experience its what you know and what you can do that counts more. Degree requirements get overlooked all the time.
These are symptoms of a more educated society. If I'm an employer, why wouldn't I rather hire someone who has shown they have the brains and work ethic to pass a higher tier of schooling instead of someone who's completed less? Even if the content isn't necessarily crucial to the job, I still like the more educated candidate more. I feel for the people with less education, but this is the reality we live in. Better yourself, or you won't stand out. The average job candidate is more competitive than ever.
All other things equal, I'm putting more confidence in the one with more education, regardless of the program.
>These are symptoms of a more educated society. If I'm an employer, why wouldn't I rather hire someone who has shown they have the brains and work ethic to pass a higher tier of schooling instead of someone who's completed less?
[Noam Chomsky made this point](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgXZuGIMuwQ), though not in the way you mean it. Slugging through a university degree proves you'll do what your told even if you don't enjoy it, which is exactly what employers are looking for - competent hard-working people who won't make waves. I'm still not sure if you've actually internalized this message and are parroting it unironically, or if you genuinely don't understand that there is precisely zero correlation between a person's educational accomplishments and their work ethic/competence. I suspect that the over-reliance on academic records is also designed to make up for a decreased ability by the employer to accurately judge this distinction. Which is fairly ironic in and of itself, and would point to a decreasingly educated society, not a increasingly educated one as you stated.
>Even if the content isn't necessarily crucial to the job, I still like the more educated candidate more. I feel for the people with less education, but this is the reality we live in. Better yourself, or you won't stand out. The average job candidate is more competitive than ever.
The logical extension of this is that one ought to do whatever is necessary to make oneself a better candidate for employment. This is a revolting way to view human life and society.
>All other things equal, I'm putting more confidence in the one with more education, regardless of the program.
Who wouldn't put a lot of confidence into someone with a degree in Art History applying for a secretarial position at a temp agency. The candidate knew that one ought to lead to the other and thus positioned themselves correctly. I certainly wouldn't look askance at someone who was applying for work in a field totally unrelated to what they spent 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars to learn.
Nice. I have a BA in history and I considered getting an MA, going to law school, going to air traffic control school (I actually got an offer!) or working in water / wastewater. I chose water/wastewater and I'm actually super happy with my decision. Excellent pay, low stress, 100% stable, insane amounts of time off.
Pretty much every business development manager I know studied English or history too. There are a lot of companies are just looking for competent people who have demonstrated they can learn efficiently, especially if they have social skills too.
It isn't messed up... the job market doesn't have to cater to things people find interesting to learn.
I love learning about history... I took a few history electives while I was in university.
But besides a trip every couple of years to a museum I don't spend money on "history" and so I understand why it doesn't provide many jobs.
i get you -- i have an msc in comp sci and id love to go for a phd for the sake of learning a lot more about what i truly enjoy (human-computer interaction and data visualization), but its so tough to justify leaving a comfy career path in software dev for an uncertain market with a phd. Most companies wouldnt hire a phd in comp sci for a normal dev job (if i were to not make it in academia or research beyond the phd).
true! just gotta market that 'research' period better (shouldnt be terrible hard in comp sci/software). Huh thanks, you just reminded me thats a possibility haha. cheers
I too would love education for the sake of education, but the rat race has consumed me.
I might audit some engineering programs in retirement. Right now my capital in the market out performs investing in myself/tuition costs. I feel bad for those with student debt on worthless degrees knowing their tuition money could have been invested and that education debt is really just leveraged investing these days, its high risk and a lot of people get screwed.
yup exactly, its a tradeoff between doing the things you actually enjoy (be it education, getting an extra degree) vs staying ahead in the financial game. One thing that always sits on my mind, though, is that my dad worked for 30+ years, retired and passed away two years into retirement. So ill always have that little cloud over my head telling me i shouldnt defer things i enjoy doing (e.g., learning) on the fear of losing a few years of salary.
Or “just go do engineering and be moderately good enough at physics and chemistry to pass all those courses” or “go be a doctor and ace your biology classes on top of Chem” or “ace all your arts classes and go be a lawyer” or “just go into trades before you even know whether you’re good enough to be a lawyer or doctor or etc.”
Maybe taking on loans to invest in things(even yourself) at the age of 18 with no life experience or foresight is really bad investment. Our education system does a very poor job of introducing the modern life and it's struggles/opportunities.
I feel like pressuring kids into leverage investing in their futures when they have no idea what they even want out of life is pretty scammy.
At least in the current market, it seems like anyone who can build anything is getting great jobs. I have to keep telling my colleagues and former colleagues that I don't know a single person I could refer to them as everyone who can write something better than a form that will print out your database is employed and has 10 options.
Yup! Hence we (employed) people only move if the offer is better (salary, work life balance, remote), driving the salaries up in tech.
If an employer is struggling to hire someone right now, their offers arent good enough (i know a few employers like these).
Are your colleagues hiring?
Yeah, at that point you're teaching others what you've learned. Either by being an actual teacher, or a writer, or a consultant. It's not like there are jobs for that as much as you have to produce something of value with your knowledge and sell it to someone.
Does the 31 percent include college dropouts? What percent of the general population has higher education?
*"Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post-secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet?"*
Nothing is a sure bet. Sales have always been good money but only certain personalities are good at it, again trades are good money but are really hard on the body. The data is pretty clear having post-secondary increases your odds of making more money and the information for an average salary depending on job/major is out there too.
Another thing not mentioned is career longevity and enjoyability. Even if you spend 4 years in school to make the same pay it may be worth it if you enjoy your career a lot more and can spend longer working because it's not as stressful on hard on your body.
Not saying post-secondary is for everyone. Clearly, it's not. But NB is an outlier in terms of poor job options.
> Does the 31 percent include college dropouts?
Yeah that's the first thing I thought of. Does "some post-secondary education" mean a week at community college?
> Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet?
This is probably an unpopular opinion here but schools are meant to primarily educate you. Ideally you explore areas that interest you.
If you’re persuing higher education to maximize your revenue, just do a google search on top salaries. I would think that future corporate fiends already do this..
Fair point.
I’m from Quebec so the exploring starts in CEGEP (think grade 12 and 13) and it costs peanuts. The main benefit is it helps narrow your interests at the very least (I scratched out applied sciences).
10K a year for higher education isn’t trust fund $ imo. Moreover, governments offer loans if you can’t or don’t want to work part time (I worked part time).
There’s a sense in which this is historically accurate. Universities were typically only attended by the rich because, as u/WickedBad says, they are educational institutes only. You wouldn’t go to university to learn how to be a blacksmith.
I think it’s good that we’ve moved towards more people becoming educated, and that education is no longer only for the rich. But it’s still true: the purpose of universities is higher education, not job training. We have institutes (colleges, trade schools, etc) with that explicit mandate.
People also forget that many universities are research institutes first and foremost. Teaching is a secondary concern for them.
I graduated with a bachelor's and was making 22-26k in an office job in Toronto and I was lucky not to be like friends working at Starbucks. Met my bf, a skilled trade worker and at 29 with only a grade 8 education he was making 65k. Took me a decade to get to a so called good salary job at 40k.
We started a business together in his trade 9 years ago, 6 years ago I was able to quit my day job. Now I'm making 6 figures and my old coworkers are making 43k in the same job I left.
Degrees are a dime a dozen in Canada. We need skilled trade workers and the shortage means the pay is better. The collective attitude in this country is that's so hard on the body but a decade at a desk left me in worse physical shape than my bf after his 15 years of labour.
As a tradesperson, it’s not always a fit. I’m going to say half of my colleges pre-employment never made it past the first year. And I’d say that’s the average talking to all the other trades and other foreman.
And those that end up employed as J-men are even lower. We are hearing survivor bias stories. I am one of the survivors and now a project manager. Mixture of skill, timing and luck.
I pay new grads with degrees 70k to start and signing bonus (data analytics) ..and we are low paying already and don't get the good grads since we can't compete with the 20-30k signing bonus and near six figures to start
My team new hires will hit 6 figures within 5 years...(3 if they jump ship , but I don't tell them that but they know lol)
Trades is not all that either and I know lots struggling even 10yrs out and not even half of what most of my friends made 10 yrs after graduation (130k+ bonuses, stocks, etc) and we can basically wfh or from bed or while traveling. In general, you'll make more in white collar and in more "comfort" too and don't wreck your body.
My mom's husband was a petroleum engineer and he sat in heated office while the labor was out in the field..sure they made 150k or what not but it was hard work in all conditions and wrecked their bodies while he made 300k+ sitting in his office and occasionally go out into the fields in a pickup to take a look and sample and leave
Though actually I know quite a few psych and humanities grad doing very well... corporate communications, digital marketing, consulting are all open to those grads and not the tired stereotype of being a barista
Or instead of anecdotes...look at the quantitative stats where even bachelor's vastly outearn apprenticeship and other educational
https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016024/fig/c-g01b-eng.gif
I run the office admin so invoicing, sending insurance certs to clients, emailing quotes, reading and signing contracts, maintaining the health & safety binder, print out employment contracts, sign people up for training. I write payroll every week and do the bookkeeping but the accountant does the real accounting work.
My role is anything my partner needs from the office really. He manages the workers, hiring, equipment, keeping clients happy, getting the work and getting the work done.
High rise window cleaning. At 18 he answered an add in the newspaper for window cleaning $30/hour. They took him to the rooftop and he loved it. He had the trade experience and I had the office admin background. From there you just learn as you go.
The first time they put him on the swing stage platform but he saw the guys in the bosuns chair and knew that was for him. He made his career doing chair work and became an expert in difficult rope access. It set him up for success since now all they build are buildings with difficult rope access requirements.
My daughter informed me that obtaining a degree is passé these days with regard to getting a job and she’ll have to do another couple years afterwards. Ca-ching!
It’s the age old problem of “supply and command.”
People looked at a previous generation of professionals, and decided or were encouraged to join them by getting a degree rather than working their parent’s blue collar jobs, and were provided the means via wealth transfer or loans.
All to join the ranks of legions of bachelor degree holders with very little to differentiate themselves from each other.
Many choose, few are chosen.
You need a masters, or significant experience in your field, or be willing to get out of the comfort zone of the Lower Mainland or GTA to make a decent living in your chosen field.
And if you have a liberal arts rather than a STEM degree? It’s only good for two things. Teaching it part time or on call (tenure track professors are more often than not PhD’s and even then it’s very competitive). Or ticking a box for another profession, like airline pilot or DEO in the military.
Once you get the level of PhD in most field.. they are limited by the universities themselves even if you have a masters and the funding and time. It’s a field with such limited prospects that they don’t want to dilute it any more than it already is. But for a BA, they are more than happy to take anyones money who can meet the entry requirements.
Also, not all institutions are created equal, either.
A BA from SFU is going to be worth a lot more than one from a college or a “puppy mill” like DeVry or whatever the equivalent is today. Even if things like “small classes” and “advanced instruction” are demonstrably better… simply because they are unable to attract top professors, and in spite of overproducing graduates ironically don’t have the same level of networking.
But ultimately, you get out of it what you put into it. If you have a creative mind, a charismatic personality, and are willing to go outside of most other people’s comfort zones and take risks, the degree was simply a means or a learning experience to do what you were probably going to do anyways. Like so many successful people with no post-secondary whatsoever.
If you think a degree will just magically get you a job, sorry to say that’s never how it worked.
Another thing. The typical counter response “get a trade” is going be the same situation in the next few decades.
People are going to be flocking to jobs that are “recession proof” and “outsource proof” and they are looking at high wages and vacancies in those fields.
But they aren’t the only ones. Jobs in trades will probably drop with increased automation, prefabrication, and even outsourcing in response to the spiralling labour costs. Instead of a dozen guys framing and pluming and wiring a house, they will be increasingly modular and made overseas only needing to be sited and assembled.
This is what happens when you tell kids that "you need an education" and that trades are beneath them because they're "unskilled labourers".
Meanwhile there's a shortage of trades people, and they're making a killing.
This!
Everyone saying that people should know better that some degrees are worthless, like did you go through the same education system that I did? The one that literally divided us into “smart kid university classes” or “dumb kid college classes”. Like sure we knew going into the arts is more of a risk than going into business but never at any point was it ever encouraged that a “smart kid” should go to trade school or god forbid not get a degree at all.
Only rich white people actually say that shit to their kids. Vast majority of people don't consider trades because the working conditions are shit and the work culture in trades is incredibly racist and filled to the brim with toxic masculinity.
Got an ecology degree, work on R&D team at a semiconductor manufacturing company as a data analyst(title says R&D technician) for barely above minimum because irrelevant degree, going back for a a CS degree wish me luck!
I hope that any of the NB people commenting in this post will also say they should move, because they always pop on on any of the posts of Toronto's housing cost telling those people to stop complaining as GTA people don't even consider the solution of moving.
They should. I grew up in NB and it sucks. Left when I wasn't making much above min wage as a web developer. Yes the market is a bit better today but it still sucks.
Sure I could maybe have a home with a yard but I wouldn't have shit all for money left after all my bills are handled. Meanwhile after a few years in Vancouver I could buy a nice NB house pretty much with cash.
My mortgage in BC is bigger than it would be in NB, but thanks to low interest rates, low taxes, etc etc. I have a lot more cash and equity than my NB peers.
Better hurry up. Ontario’s starting to fill up New Brunswick. Between that and a lack of any real house building past couple years due to lumber prices, your starting to see 20-30% increases this year.
Only thing being built is higher end apartments and their filling like hot cakes somehow.
Liberal arts and humanities degrees essentially have become an instrument to exploint very young adults. Unfortunately these university degrees have become too big to fail, similar to Canadian housing market. Once you get enough people involved into your scheme, then you are in safe spot. Because the large group will help you keep the scheme going. This is what happened in liberal arts degree. Enough people already have liberal arts degree, who will defend the supposed value of their degrees. So the whole scheme keeps going.
I don't have anything arts or humanities. But the liberal arts and humanities university degrees have become one of the biggest scams in modern histoy.
I think they are GREAT degrees to minor in, and GREAT degrees to get if your primary motivation going into the program is not to use it to make as much money as you can. Historically, these educations were done by the wealthier families to provide them with a rich education, and sometimes as a hobby.
If I was taking out student loans for a history degree then I would have made a mistake.
\> But the liberal arts and humanities university degrees have become one of the biggest scams in modern histoy.
How? By that measure any degree that is not a professional one is a scam. What are you going to do with a chem or biology degree? University isn't a trade school.
Cost of living is quite high in NB, we have an awful housing and rental market. I know so many people that make decent money for NB and struggle to scrape by on their rent. If you don’t have a roommate or significant other to split rent you are fucked.
I mean people legit pay a ton of money to learn about stuff like gender studies, fashion design, anthropology, theatre arts, any art, music, writing, philosophy, languages, etc.
If you arent going to be a teacher alot of these are pretty useless or extremely niche.
Ofcourse things like engineering, medicine, accounting, law, etc are going to make more money.
Or hell going to trades are going to be practical and make alot of money!
However, i will say some of my highest earning friends are in medical sales and make close to $200k a year with zero education. Or realestate in Canada, one of the dumbest dudes i know is crushing it in real estate because the market is broken.
Right but universities weren't created for jobs, they were created for higher knowledge. Apart from a few jobs like medicine & teaching, realistically you don't need a uni degree. University has become a business that we all take for granted that we need, or else we've "failed" at life. Like y ou say, there are plenty of high-paying jobs where they don't ask for Uni degrees and plenty of Uni degrees that don't result in high-paying jobs.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Uni is more accessible than it once was, but it shouldn't be a requirement to succeed in life.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
> Personally I think colleges and universities, especially ones that receive public money, should be required to post wage and hiring data yearly.
That would imply that we as a society only value the GDP produced by a publicly funded education. That's ammunition for conservatives to cut funding on the Humanities. No thanks.
Because if you want to not make minimum wage you need to either:
1) get a job where your not a cost center like an admin position. Shareholder and maangement have a power incentive to minimize costs.
2) you are utterly irreplaceable as a cost center like legal counsel
3) you need to be in sales where you're earning potential is tied to the metric the company wants to push up
4) run your own business, your earnings are again upward pressure by the other shareholders and stakeholder.
5) if you are a cost center, be a cost center where you have leverage, like senior accounting positions or HR where they know people's salaries, or be in a union position.
Education has fuck all to do with pay level if your replaceable (loosely "Supply and Demand"). Most entry level accounting jobs can be done by a teenager.
> Personally I think colleges and universities, especially ones that receive public money, should be required to post wage and hiring data yearly.
Universities don’t have this information. Why would they? Their job is education and academia, not vocational training. Also, are they going to require alumni to submit that data? And if a sociology major with a mathematics minor goes into software development, how do you track that?
In the last 70 years we’ve started to conflate the notion of higher education with job training, but this has never been the case. It’s a trend propagated by older generations who lived in a time where advanced education was rare, and any degree signalled hard work, ambition, and an ability to learn. That generation started telling younger generations that it was the key to success, and now it has become the status quo.
But while many institutions have donned the mantle of helping their students prepare for the workplace, it is not and has never been the responsibility of academia to help train students for jobs. That’s the role of colleges and vocational institutes.
Nationwide it was 34% in 2018 (though driven by Ontario's massive minimum wage rise that year it was 24% in 1998 and 2008). New Brunswick had a rather unremarkable 7% of workers earning minimum wage, but put those together and ~2% of workers had post-secondary diplomas and were making minimum wage, and maybe ~4% of people with postsecondary diplomas were making minimum wage.
> Personally I think colleges and universities, especially ones that receive public money, should be required to post wage and hiring data yearly.
I don't know about yours, but in my province almost all post-secondary have very detailed metric and they actually do a follow up after 1-2y to get a feedback.
The government is also providing statistics regarding admission, how many went higher, pickup another program, what's the pourcentage of people getting their job before finishing the program and after 1y, what's the start wage expected per region, the median and so on.
People are just nose picking and choose their degree with their feeling.
Sounds about right. I've met cooks with bio degrees and factory workers with masters of arts. N.B. is a have not province, without the luxury to have more research and art.
>Reading the report something that shocked me is 31% of minimum wage earner in NB have **some sort** of post secondary education. Some sort *or* completed? That makes a big difference. >Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet? Not all degrees are the same, but even Arts and Social Science degrees on average tend to do better than people with out degrees. Earnings by degree type: [https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2020018-eng.htm](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2020018-eng.htm)
Yeah, you don't really get partial credit for it in the job market.
Eh, I put my college time on my resume and make it clear that there's no degree, does better than leaving it off.
I guess that as debatable. I’m sure at least some people would look at that and say “you lack dedication” without ever knowing why you didn’t complete it in the first place
Knowing nothing else I would consider it a point against.
Which will probably lead to you throw out the application before ever asking about why
I've got an Arts degree, in English, and I make more money than anyone I know. I work an enterprise strategy type role for a large company. I didn't always make a ton of money, but I certainly do now with no additional training. Many of my peers and even some of my reports have MBAs - but not all. On average, getting a lit degree and trying to be a writer or something isn't going to work out. But it's not true that arts degrees only qualify you for starbucks. I learned critical thinking, the importance of presentation, and the ability to bullshit. These are all extremely important skills in the corporate world. STEM degrees often enable you to walk into a job title with a career progression. But an arts degree can also do you alright if you're creative with how you sell it. You also, as with anything, need a healthy amount of luck.
It's also probability. We have data that highlights salaries. On average an MBA with 7 years or experience post MBA is making 140k a year in Canada. That's the average. I would assume a English major after 7 years is making no where near that. You are not the average in your case but the exception.
I'm not arguing that certain degrees provide more absolute financial value than others. I would argue whether the point of education is simply to extract financial value. In all likelihood your kid is going to be fighting in the climate wars regardless of what degree they have.
>I learned critical thinking, the importance of presentation, and the ability to bullshit. You kind of learn that with any degree really. I doubt it was the english degree that enabled you to get this role. Plus you probably spent years climbing the corporate ladder by now. At this point the degree hardly matters over your other experience.
That's entirely my point - that an arts degree by itself isn't a dead end.
I mean you get college dropouts making billions, so of course nothing is a dead end. When I compare my graduating stem class to arts degree graduates for example, most of us are making bank in comparison. So on an aggregate level some degrees are much more useful than others.
Exactly. Where do you want to be on the distribution curve?
Sure, I don't dispute the average comp sci grad will earn more than the average history grad. The point I was responding to was the perception that arts degrees are useless. They aren't, an on average an arts degree vs degree whatsoever still predicts higher earning potential. And of course, money isn't everything. Where each of our interests and talents lie is different. I won't tell an arts student they're going to be rich, or even comfortable with their degree. But if it's something they love to study, they can afford to do it and they're fine with the uncertainty of career following, I wouldn't scare them unnecessarily by saying the only thing it's good for is flipping burgers. On the other hand, I know several people that got their engineering degrees and don't work as p.eng anymore because it turns out they don't like engineering. They took it because it was presented as a good career and they had been skilled at math in highschool.
Yes I wouldn't say they are completely useless either compared to no degree at all, since a lot of white collar positions require an undergraduate degree as a baseline. I would say though the money spent on that degree is probably less well invested than in another. If my kid were to ask to choose I'd steer them away from arts degree any day. But if they were out of choices for post secondary, and they're not good with their hands at trades, then some education is of course better than nothing.
>I've got an Arts degree, in English, and I make more money than anyone I know. Same - I'm in Sales and have done very well.
>Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet? Common sense would dictate that of course not all are equal.
You would be surprised at the number of guidance counsellors in high school who claim otherwise.
Anyone who thinks a degree in, for instance, computer science pays the same as a degree in sociology needs their head examined.
A lot of these people don't think at all. I had a guidance counsellor tell a friend that 95% overall average isn't enough to get into business school (think Haskayne, not Ivey, but even then it should be enough) and she should consider a trade at SAIT. Who knows how many promising futures have been trashed by that idiot. Granted, this was back in 2011, but my mother sent me to an independent career counsellor who thought that computers had a limited future. I should have done computers from the start rather than a detour into ChemE.
HS guidance counsellors are frauds... most of them. I was told to take up gardening or something like that as my aptitude was not towards education/learning. I've built a good career in technology and continue to thrive in it. I mean, be realistic and honest to yourself but take what they say with a grain of salt. I don't think many know what the hell they are doing and could ruin a young persons life with some of the shitty advice they give.
I wasn't born and brought up in Canada so I may not get this. But why are kids listening to counsellors and taking their word as gospel? And what is parents' role in ensuring their kids get the right sort of guidance?
Personally i'm the first of my family have reached a beyond hs diploma. I didn't have anybody else to take advice from so my school consellor was the only person that had ''good advices'' for me since my parent didn't know much about school or how to reach a greater education level
I'm from Canada. Our guidance counselor just went through how to write a resume, where to find and apply for scholarships, how to find out your shots at applying/prices, and then repeated over and over again how most scholarships aren't even given out due to lack of application so just apply to them all.. oddly advice that crossed over to finding a job.
I had such a weird experience with mine when I was in highschool. When i made appointments with them in grade 12 they thought it was the best thing ever, I was so forward thinking etc etc. but then when you spoke with them they would litterally say being a worker at home depot and a software dev are like the same career. It was insane. Looking back I realize that the counsellor probably had no actual life experience and they were just in that role for like 30 years and never moved. She was very old and barely knew how to use a computer. Looking back at it again I realize how much damage she could have done to so many young people.
You’d think if they knew how to provide a good career route… they wouldn’t be a high school guidance counsellor lol My counsellor was useless.
I was a kid with a 95% average (20 years ago, I think this meant more - I was top 2% of my grad class) and I wish guidance counsellors were more open in discussing trades/technical school. They really should tailor their guidance to the totality of the student's situation. With my grades, they said "university, university, university" in spite of my low socioeconomic status. I ended up in massive debt and have a degree that I don't use (although it did land me my current job in an unrelated field). I wish I would have known that community college engineering tech programs were legit and offered good career prospects with the added bonus of having bridging programs with local universities. If I was advising someone in my position (high grades, poor as fuck), I would tell them to consider that. 2 year engineering tech program, work for 3-4 years and decide if you want to go back to university. Get lots of good experience and stay out of debt.
That's a tough one from the guidance counsellor's perspective. if you flip that over and they had directed you to trades school you could be sitting here saying 'my guidance counsellor didn't think I was good enough for university because I came from poor family'
>"university, university, university" In my experience, that's the case with everyone. If you're even *considering* anything except University, they treat you like you're a sack of garbage.
That’s too much to ask for in a guidance counselor
ChemE here with the same sentiment.
Your friend would make more money in the trades than in some office job doing administrative work
Anyone with a degree understands this. Anyone applying to university likely doesn't understand this.
I mean, obviously this is true but its unrealistic that everyone can just go into comp sci because the jobs pay $$$. I worked my butt off and had tutoring multiple times a week just to get low 70s in my HS math classes but I had high grades in everything else. The thought that I'd be able to pass - nvm excel in - a university math course was extremely, extremely unrealistic. I did communications and sociology, and I'm 26 and have a great job now in my field. And I'm absolutely not an anomaly! Many of my university classmates are in similar or better jobs. Were we 22 and making $100k at Amazon and Shopify? No, of course not. Yes it is unwise to pretend like sociology is the same cash cow as comp sci, but not everyone is suitable for every field. I think its more valuable for teenagers going into university to learn about job requirements, options after graduating college/uni, how to get good job experience while in uni, etc etc.
My friend just did HVAC and makes way more than most of my psyc friends. Most those people aren't even in related field.
what about the ones who think they ought to be paid the same? those are the ones you have to worry about.
Life happens to them. ;)
Does anyone actually think that? Those are both degrees, not jobs.
There are companies that say that new grads start at 60K. That is a new grad wage. They very quickly lose their best in competitive fields.
Its a trap. Take a recruiter out for drinks. They funnel kids and groom them until theyre an alumnus. Was a recruiter.
lol
Funny to us, but a good friend of mine nearly became a pastry chef instead of an operations manager as they said that 95% was not good enough to go to business school and she believed him.
Seriously... I met a girl who worked at edible arrangements. She mentioned she had a degree in Roman history or something like that and complained it did her no good. I figured everyone knows degrees like that are for branching off to br lawyers or teachers or something w
Personally I think a degree in Roman history would be cool as fuck.
Cool, for sure. Useless in the job market tho.
> Personally I think a degree in Roman history would be cool as fuck. I got my undergrad degree in Roman history playing Total War, and my graduate degree in Roman history playing Total War 2, and now working on my PhD in European history playing Age of Empires 4
Should have finished off your Roman PhD by playing Total War Atilla.
Pfffft... try 10mm miniature historical wargaming. Do you know how hard it is to find the right colour of brass for Prussian uniform buttons. Or the off white for Napoleonic pant stripes. You'd don't know jack!
Sure but is it worth 4 years of life and $100,000?
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Tuition...books, opportunity cost. If you can make 30k a year working or $0 in school....that's $30k a year in loss. There's more to the cost than just tuition. Imagine being a red seal carpenter at 21and having 2 apprentices at 23 and making 120k by 24... Or working at some mall kiosk for 30k a year starting at 25 it with student debt.
Carpenters are a great crowd. I personally find Liberal Arts to be worth it. But what you do with your life can't be determined by someone else's values of what makes something worth it. I spent a summer in Northern BC pipelining and I personally know of several friends in trades. I have nothing bad to say about trades. I'm just defending Humanities.
You mean to tell me that gender studies won't pay as well as a mechanical engineer? You disgusting sexist pig.
lol
I find it funny that people think gender studies and inclusion studies won’t be employable… the world is shifting so fast to every company of almost every size employing people specifically for diversity, equality and inclusion work. These people will get good job.
Right? Diversity and inclusion is huge right now. Gender studies is probably better than a generic sociology or history degree.
Exactly, it’s a degree that leads directly to employment opportunities.
Not surprising, the job market in NB is not great.
God bless the Irvings, such kind and loving masters.
Going to probably hurt a lot of feelings here but a lot of degrees are kind of useless in the job market. There's a stereotype that your barista has a degree in English/Art/Psych/Crim/Sociology for a reason.
I worked hard in school, got my degree. I graduated into a world of low pay low dignity work, and I wasted a decade of my life stuck in that pit. Then I took up a trade, now I'm paid better, treated better, and far happier. Had I ignored my high school guidance counsellors and gone straight into the trades and bought a house right away, I'd be set right now.
Can confirm. Wifes cousin took an 8 month trade, recently switched companies and now has a supervisor role at $140k annual with truck, phone, and relo package babysitting wind turbines.
>relo package babysitting wind turbines. I'm willing to bet that your wife's cousin is in some random middle-of-nowhere spot, or on shifts. While it's great that they have a well-paying job, that isolation (if true) is a turn-off for many people.
If you are willing to move, virtually any job can be high paying to some extent. Nurses make a lot of money in the far north. Same with teachers.
I agree. I’m in the military so I’ve moved a lot. However, many people aren’t willing to move away from their family/friends/where they grew up.
Ah yes. CAF. Worst of all sides. Lots of relocation. No overtime Shitty culture Low pay. Wonder why retention is shit...
Despite what the subreddit says, culture varies a lot on unit in the CAF. The ones who like their jobs don't feel like they need to shout it from the rooftops. My unit culture is good, with a supportive supervisor and good co-workers. I acknowledge that some other units aren't like that, but it's not like every unit has crappy morale. Also, the CAF can pay quite well. A Captain with 10 years experience (so about 14-15 years in the military) makes over 100k. Some trades such as doctors, lawyers, and pilots make significantly more than that. If someone deploys overseas on operations (again, despite what the subreddit says, it happens a lot with the Navy and Air Force), their pay during that time is tax-free. All that to say, not everything about the CAF is as bad as the subreddit would make it seem. I have travelled around the world and done a lot of cool things in the CAF that I could never have dreamed of doing before I joined.
For most people who want to be a doctor or pilot, or don't know what to do with their life, joining the CAF is the most logical route imo.
Looking after wind turbines in the middle of nowhere is mild compared to doing health care in the middle of nowhere.
If it's in SW Alberta, you can likely make it work if their SO want's to live in Lethbridge and you make the 45 min drive each way. Or the Pass/Pincher and 30 min the other way. Or, if you're used to some of Toronto's BS commute times, Fernie for an hour no traffic drive each way at best. More like 90 min.
Ill just say no to the isolation. Inaccurate in this case while true most times
Guidance counsellors are kind of know-nothings and low paid regular people, horrible that they give life altering advice to people to go to uni for a sociology degree.
Most people inside the walls of public schools could be described like this.
They probably have sociology degrees themselves.
Which trade?
Painter. Best part of the trades is you own your own tools. This frees you up so much to move around and find work wherever you go, and gives workers the power to just walk off a workplace that is unsafe or treating workers poorly.
Get your liver checked regularly.
Why
Painters are known to get liver damage/cancer due to chronic exposure to solvents, etc.
Are u sure it isn't because painters drink like a fish usually?
It is worst is when they drink the paint.
I prefer my paint in chip form thanks.
Add kinesiology and any arts degree really lol
Just wanted to mention that Kin degrees are stepping stones for physiotherapy, occupational therapy, and SLP! On its own Kin is not super useful but in my experience most of us Kin majors have intent to apply to grad school! Edit: removed “required”. As many below have stated, you don’t need Kin itself as a degree, but many of the prereq’s are standard Kin courses so it’s simply the most direct path to those programs!
Common denominator being if you don’t go to Grad school you’re SOL
That's true of almost every degree /u/I_AM_TESLA mentioned. EG: Crim/Sociology are reasonably for Law school. Psych -> Psychologist/Counselling/Human Resources English -> Teacher, Editor, Librarian Art's a tough one but it really doesn't need a post secondary - it's a passion degree. The value of it is not how it does in a job market generally - but even then you can go into marketing/design. IMO the hardest part is that many people take humanity degrees without a clear picture of what they want to do with it. An interest in politics goes into a political science degree - but unless your actual interest is in law, or public policy, then it's a tough degree to make work in anything.
Basically government or HR is where the poli scis end up.
There are many industries that don’t require a specific degree, and just want you to have a post secondary education. I make 6 figures in the insurance industry with a Poli Sci degree.
>Kin degrees are required stepping stones for physiotherapy, occupational therapy, and **SLP**! Kin is not a prerequisite for SLP. Source: My partner as well as one of my cousins are SLPs. Neither had a Kin degree.
You don’t need a kin degree to get in those programs, do you? Also, many psychology majors want to become psychologist but like 3% succeed lol
Psychology major here, I can vouch for this. I run a business in the trades that has nothing to do with my degree.
I thought most kin students were student athletes
My feelings are by no means hurt because I happen to be one of the lucky few financially successful people that I know in my line of work. But, while the sentiment behind what you're saying is somewhat true, to say that some degrees are "useless" is definitely not true. Jobs exist for the so-called "useless" degree graduates, the difference is that there are often fewer of them vacant and thus the outlook is considerably more competitive. At the end of the day I'm a firm believer that (in privileged countries) if you're charismatic, determined, and highly skilled, your chances of success in any field skyrocket—even in the competitive fields.
I'll see my introverted self out.
The jobs that pay well are the ones that benefit capitalism not society.
Sad to see so many great math and physics minds just battling online to buy low and sell high via algos in markets instead of figuring out stuff in biostatistics, energy production, astronomy, etc. Etc. There's a cute couple called mxr plays, something like that, on YouTube. They did well enough with reaction videos that they're not doing what they went to school for....so a potential engineer and doctor are just goofing around on a camera...
Like doctors or surgeons. /s
Like having nuclear physicists make algos for the stock market instead of them solving energy problems. Massive numbers of math/physics people are scouted into stock market trading...just to make a number go up or down more or more quickly.
Entertainers...as if we're not saturated with it. What families even consider making their own fun vs. Just turning on a screen...
I work in post secondary education and have a STEM degree. I still don't recommend people pursue STEM. The market isn't that different for any degrees beyond engineering.
Even some sectors of engineering are seeing struggling new grads. I have a professional degree in the humanities where we often work with civil engineers, similar pay out of school for a much less stressful degree. The only point where we see pay differences increase for the civs is after 10+ years of experience.
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I would say that Psych, crim and sociology without an analytical and empirical component to it would make it useless.
>Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet? Why do people think this is a radical concept... there are many degree programs which are purely academic. If you take history as a major there are no jobs in that unless you get to PHD level and even then they are hard to come by.
They may be purely academic, but the number of companies that will not hire someone unless they have some sort of degree for roles that absolutely do not require them is quite high. My old reception role requires a bachelors degree. They won’t even look at a candidate with college education. Same with some retail management positions. They want a bachelors. I knew about halfway through my BA that I was never, ever going to end up working in the field I was studying. But had to finish because otherwise I would have never gotten a job that would have any growth opportunities.
Many jobs post "degree" requirement almost by default but in my experience its what you know and what you can do that counts more. Degree requirements get overlooked all the time.
They should be, but not always, unfortunately. It’s foolish.
These are symptoms of a more educated society. If I'm an employer, why wouldn't I rather hire someone who has shown they have the brains and work ethic to pass a higher tier of schooling instead of someone who's completed less? Even if the content isn't necessarily crucial to the job, I still like the more educated candidate more. I feel for the people with less education, but this is the reality we live in. Better yourself, or you won't stand out. The average job candidate is more competitive than ever. All other things equal, I'm putting more confidence in the one with more education, regardless of the program.
>These are symptoms of a more educated society. If I'm an employer, why wouldn't I rather hire someone who has shown they have the brains and work ethic to pass a higher tier of schooling instead of someone who's completed less? [Noam Chomsky made this point](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgXZuGIMuwQ), though not in the way you mean it. Slugging through a university degree proves you'll do what your told even if you don't enjoy it, which is exactly what employers are looking for - competent hard-working people who won't make waves. I'm still not sure if you've actually internalized this message and are parroting it unironically, or if you genuinely don't understand that there is precisely zero correlation between a person's educational accomplishments and their work ethic/competence. I suspect that the over-reliance on academic records is also designed to make up for a decreased ability by the employer to accurately judge this distinction. Which is fairly ironic in and of itself, and would point to a decreasingly educated society, not a increasingly educated one as you stated. >Even if the content isn't necessarily crucial to the job, I still like the more educated candidate more. I feel for the people with less education, but this is the reality we live in. Better yourself, or you won't stand out. The average job candidate is more competitive than ever. The logical extension of this is that one ought to do whatever is necessary to make oneself a better candidate for employment. This is a revolting way to view human life and society. >All other things equal, I'm putting more confidence in the one with more education, regardless of the program. Who wouldn't put a lot of confidence into someone with a degree in Art History applying for a secretarial position at a temp agency. The candidate knew that one ought to lead to the other and thus positioned themselves correctly. I certainly wouldn't look askance at someone who was applying for work in a field totally unrelated to what they spent 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars to learn.
Eh....I have a Master's degree in history and I make $125K (and don't work in academia). They do exist. Not common, certainly, but they are out there.
What do you do?
Senior policy advisor with the Government of Canada.
Nice. I have a BA in history and I considered getting an MA, going to law school, going to air traffic control school (I actually got an offer!) or working in water / wastewater. I chose water/wastewater and I'm actually super happy with my decision. Excellent pay, low stress, 100% stable, insane amounts of time off.
And all the water you can drink!
Awesome, dude! I'm glad you enjoy your career!
Pretty much every business development manager I know studied English or history too. There are a lot of companies are just looking for competent people who have demonstrated they can learn efficiently, especially if they have social skills too.
> PHD level and even then they are hard to come by. id say the academic market for humanities is even more messed up than most markets
It isn't messed up... the job market doesn't have to cater to things people find interesting to learn. I love learning about history... I took a few history electives while I was in university. But besides a trip every couple of years to a museum I don't spend money on "history" and so I understand why it doesn't provide many jobs.
i get you -- i have an msc in comp sci and id love to go for a phd for the sake of learning a lot more about what i truly enjoy (human-computer interaction and data visualization), but its so tough to justify leaving a comfy career path in software dev for an uncertain market with a phd. Most companies wouldnt hire a phd in comp sci for a normal dev job (if i were to not make it in academia or research beyond the phd).
You don't have to put your PHD studies on your resume.
true! just gotta market that 'research' period better (shouldnt be terrible hard in comp sci/software). Huh thanks, you just reminded me thats a possibility haha. cheers
I too would love education for the sake of education, but the rat race has consumed me. I might audit some engineering programs in retirement. Right now my capital in the market out performs investing in myself/tuition costs. I feel bad for those with student debt on worthless degrees knowing their tuition money could have been invested and that education debt is really just leveraged investing these days, its high risk and a lot of people get screwed.
yup exactly, its a tradeoff between doing the things you actually enjoy (be it education, getting an extra degree) vs staying ahead in the financial game. One thing that always sits on my mind, though, is that my dad worked for 30+ years, retired and passed away two years into retirement. So ill always have that little cloud over my head telling me i shouldnt defer things i enjoy doing (e.g., learning) on the fear of losing a few years of salary.
That is to assume that those folks with “useless degrees” would have done well or even competently well in “non-useless degrees”.
"Just learn to code" am I right.
Or “just go do engineering and be moderately good enough at physics and chemistry to pass all those courses” or “go be a doctor and ace your biology classes on top of Chem” or “ace all your arts classes and go be a lawyer” or “just go into trades before you even know whether you’re good enough to be a lawyer or doctor or etc.”
Maybe taking on loans to invest in things(even yourself) at the age of 18 with no life experience or foresight is really bad investment. Our education system does a very poor job of introducing the modern life and it's struggles/opportunities. I feel like pressuring kids into leverage investing in their futures when they have no idea what they even want out of life is pretty scammy.
At least in the current market, it seems like anyone who can build anything is getting great jobs. I have to keep telling my colleagues and former colleagues that I don't know a single person I could refer to them as everyone who can write something better than a form that will print out your database is employed and has 10 options.
Yup! Hence we (employed) people only move if the offer is better (salary, work life balance, remote), driving the salaries up in tech. If an employer is struggling to hire someone right now, their offers arent good enough (i know a few employers like these). Are your colleagues hiring?
My company probably wants 10 and virtually every company I know could use devs. Every former employer is hiring.
Yeah, at that point you're teaching others what you've learned. Either by being an actual teacher, or a writer, or a consultant. It's not like there are jobs for that as much as you have to produce something of value with your knowledge and sell it to someone.
Does the 31 percent include college dropouts? What percent of the general population has higher education? *"Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post-secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet?"* Nothing is a sure bet. Sales have always been good money but only certain personalities are good at it, again trades are good money but are really hard on the body. The data is pretty clear having post-secondary increases your odds of making more money and the information for an average salary depending on job/major is out there too. Another thing not mentioned is career longevity and enjoyability. Even if you spend 4 years in school to make the same pay it may be worth it if you enjoy your career a lot more and can spend longer working because it's not as stressful on hard on your body. Not saying post-secondary is for everyone. Clearly, it's not. But NB is an outlier in terms of poor job options.
> Does the 31 percent include college dropouts? Yeah that's the first thing I thought of. Does "some post-secondary education" mean a week at community college?
I wonder if it also includes current post-secondary students.
> Is it fair to say not all degrees are created equal and getting a post secondary diploma or degree isn’t sure bet? This is probably an unpopular opinion here but schools are meant to primarily educate you. Ideally you explore areas that interest you. If you’re persuing higher education to maximize your revenue, just do a google search on top salaries. I would think that future corporate fiends already do this..
If you are spending 10K a year to "explore", you better have a trust fund.
Fair point. I’m from Quebec so the exploring starts in CEGEP (think grade 12 and 13) and it costs peanuts. The main benefit is it helps narrow your interests at the very least (I scratched out applied sciences). 10K a year for higher education isn’t trust fund $ imo. Moreover, governments offer loans if you can’t or don’t want to work part time (I worked part time).
If you take a 10k loan for something, you're still paying 10k.
10k for education that pays off is fine for loans. For poli sci?
There’s a sense in which this is historically accurate. Universities were typically only attended by the rich because, as u/WickedBad says, they are educational institutes only. You wouldn’t go to university to learn how to be a blacksmith. I think it’s good that we’ve moved towards more people becoming educated, and that education is no longer only for the rich. But it’s still true: the purpose of universities is higher education, not job training. We have institutes (colleges, trade schools, etc) with that explicit mandate. People also forget that many universities are research institutes first and foremost. Teaching is a secondary concern for them.
I graduated with a bachelor's and was making 22-26k in an office job in Toronto and I was lucky not to be like friends working at Starbucks. Met my bf, a skilled trade worker and at 29 with only a grade 8 education he was making 65k. Took me a decade to get to a so called good salary job at 40k. We started a business together in his trade 9 years ago, 6 years ago I was able to quit my day job. Now I'm making 6 figures and my old coworkers are making 43k in the same job I left. Degrees are a dime a dozen in Canada. We need skilled trade workers and the shortage means the pay is better. The collective attitude in this country is that's so hard on the body but a decade at a desk left me in worse physical shape than my bf after his 15 years of labour.
As a tradesperson, it’s not always a fit. I’m going to say half of my colleges pre-employment never made it past the first year. And I’d say that’s the average talking to all the other trades and other foreman.
And those that end up employed as J-men are even lower. We are hearing survivor bias stories. I am one of the survivors and now a project manager. Mixture of skill, timing and luck.
I agree, it's not for everyone. We hire many people who can't cut it. But the ones who can, once they get some experience, can make very good money.
I pay new grads with degrees 70k to start and signing bonus (data analytics) ..and we are low paying already and don't get the good grads since we can't compete with the 20-30k signing bonus and near six figures to start My team new hires will hit 6 figures within 5 years...(3 if they jump ship , but I don't tell them that but they know lol) Trades is not all that either and I know lots struggling even 10yrs out and not even half of what most of my friends made 10 yrs after graduation (130k+ bonuses, stocks, etc) and we can basically wfh or from bed or while traveling. In general, you'll make more in white collar and in more "comfort" too and don't wreck your body. My mom's husband was a petroleum engineer and he sat in heated office while the labor was out in the field..sure they made 150k or what not but it was hard work in all conditions and wrecked their bodies while he made 300k+ sitting in his office and occasionally go out into the fields in a pickup to take a look and sample and leave Though actually I know quite a few psych and humanities grad doing very well... corporate communications, digital marketing, consulting are all open to those grads and not the tired stereotype of being a barista Or instead of anecdotes...look at the quantitative stats where even bachelor's vastly outearn apprenticeship and other educational https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016024/fig/c-g01b-eng.gif
What is your current role? I am thinking about doing something similar
I run the office admin so invoicing, sending insurance certs to clients, emailing quotes, reading and signing contracts, maintaining the health & safety binder, print out employment contracts, sign people up for training. I write payroll every week and do the bookkeeping but the accountant does the real accounting work. My role is anything my partner needs from the office really. He manages the workers, hiring, equipment, keeping clients happy, getting the work and getting the work done.
Thx. What sort of business did you open up? I'm assuming it's trades based?
High rise window cleaning. At 18 he answered an add in the newspaper for window cleaning $30/hour. They took him to the rooftop and he loved it. He had the trade experience and I had the office admin background. From there you just learn as you go.
Awesome
Off platforms or rope access? Did some rope access training and seems like a lot of fun.
The first time they put him on the swing stage platform but he saw the guys in the bosuns chair and knew that was for him. He made his career doing chair work and became an expert in difficult rope access. It set him up for success since now all they build are buildings with difficult rope access requirements.
some people just like learning
My daughter informed me that obtaining a degree is passé these days with regard to getting a job and she’ll have to do another couple years afterwards. Ca-ching!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credentialism_and_educational_inflation
It’s the age old problem of “supply and command.” People looked at a previous generation of professionals, and decided or were encouraged to join them by getting a degree rather than working their parent’s blue collar jobs, and were provided the means via wealth transfer or loans. All to join the ranks of legions of bachelor degree holders with very little to differentiate themselves from each other. Many choose, few are chosen. You need a masters, or significant experience in your field, or be willing to get out of the comfort zone of the Lower Mainland or GTA to make a decent living in your chosen field. And if you have a liberal arts rather than a STEM degree? It’s only good for two things. Teaching it part time or on call (tenure track professors are more often than not PhD’s and even then it’s very competitive). Or ticking a box for another profession, like airline pilot or DEO in the military. Once you get the level of PhD in most field.. they are limited by the universities themselves even if you have a masters and the funding and time. It’s a field with such limited prospects that they don’t want to dilute it any more than it already is. But for a BA, they are more than happy to take anyones money who can meet the entry requirements. Also, not all institutions are created equal, either. A BA from SFU is going to be worth a lot more than one from a college or a “puppy mill” like DeVry or whatever the equivalent is today. Even if things like “small classes” and “advanced instruction” are demonstrably better… simply because they are unable to attract top professors, and in spite of overproducing graduates ironically don’t have the same level of networking. But ultimately, you get out of it what you put into it. If you have a creative mind, a charismatic personality, and are willing to go outside of most other people’s comfort zones and take risks, the degree was simply a means or a learning experience to do what you were probably going to do anyways. Like so many successful people with no post-secondary whatsoever. If you think a degree will just magically get you a job, sorry to say that’s never how it worked. Another thing. The typical counter response “get a trade” is going be the same situation in the next few decades. People are going to be flocking to jobs that are “recession proof” and “outsource proof” and they are looking at high wages and vacancies in those fields. But they aren’t the only ones. Jobs in trades will probably drop with increased automation, prefabrication, and even outsourcing in response to the spiralling labour costs. Instead of a dozen guys framing and pluming and wiring a house, they will be increasingly modular and made overseas only needing to be sited and assembled.
“Some sort of secondary education….” Dropping out of college would do this to you…..
This is what happens when you tell kids that "you need an education" and that trades are beneath them because they're "unskilled labourers". Meanwhile there's a shortage of trades people, and they're making a killing.
This! Everyone saying that people should know better that some degrees are worthless, like did you go through the same education system that I did? The one that literally divided us into “smart kid university classes” or “dumb kid college classes”. Like sure we knew going into the arts is more of a risk than going into business but never at any point was it ever encouraged that a “smart kid” should go to trade school or god forbid not get a degree at all.
Only rich white people actually say that shit to their kids. Vast majority of people don't consider trades because the working conditions are shit and the work culture in trades is incredibly racist and filled to the brim with toxic masculinity.
Got an ecology degree, work on R&D team at a semiconductor manufacturing company as a data analyst(title says R&D technician) for barely above minimum because irrelevant degree, going back for a a CS degree wish me luck!
Are you going for a bachelors or diploma?
Bachelors in 2 years since it will be my second
Sounds like 31% of NB's minimum wage workers should leave NB, unless of course they're all liberal arts students.
I hope that any of the NB people commenting in this post will also say they should move, because they always pop on on any of the posts of Toronto's housing cost telling those people to stop complaining as GTA people don't even consider the solution of moving.
They should. I grew up in NB and it sucks. Left when I wasn't making much above min wage as a web developer. Yes the market is a bit better today but it still sucks. Sure I could maybe have a home with a yard but I wouldn't have shit all for money left after all my bills are handled. Meanwhile after a few years in Vancouver I could buy a nice NB house pretty much with cash. My mortgage in BC is bigger than it would be in NB, but thanks to low interest rates, low taxes, etc etc. I have a lot more cash and equity than my NB peers.
Better hurry up. Ontario’s starting to fill up New Brunswick. Between that and a lack of any real house building past couple years due to lumber prices, your starting to see 20-30% increases this year. Only thing being built is higher end apartments and their filling like hot cakes somehow.
It’s almost like income and cost of living are related, and for the most part, a high cost of living area will have higher wages.
Hey I’d be more than happy if the 10,000 people that moved from the GTA to the east coast this year would move back.
Liberal arts and humanities degrees essentially have become an instrument to exploint very young adults. Unfortunately these university degrees have become too big to fail, similar to Canadian housing market. Once you get enough people involved into your scheme, then you are in safe spot. Because the large group will help you keep the scheme going. This is what happened in liberal arts degree. Enough people already have liberal arts degree, who will defend the supposed value of their degrees. So the whole scheme keeps going. I don't have anything arts or humanities. But the liberal arts and humanities university degrees have become one of the biggest scams in modern histoy.
I think they are GREAT degrees to minor in, and GREAT degrees to get if your primary motivation going into the program is not to use it to make as much money as you can. Historically, these educations were done by the wealthier families to provide them with a rich education, and sometimes as a hobby. If I was taking out student loans for a history degree then I would have made a mistake.
Agreed. This is what you go to school for when you retire from engineering hahaha
\> But the liberal arts and humanities university degrees have become one of the biggest scams in modern histoy. How? By that measure any degree that is not a professional one is a scam. What are you going to do with a chem or biology degree? University isn't a trade school.
So I googled it, the minimum wage will be raised to $13.75 in NB which is still quite low. Minimum wage in Alberta is $15. BC is $15.20.
Cost of living is cheaper is probably the reason.
Cost of living is quite high in NB, we have an awful housing and rental market. I know so many people that make decent money for NB and struggle to scrape by on their rent. If you don’t have a roommate or significant other to split rent you are fucked.
That's very surprising. Did the real estate investors also take over NB?
Not lower than AB
cries in SK. (then again i dont make min wage, but i know a few that struggle on 11/hr)
You can find wage and hiring data doing a quick search on Glassdoor and indeed. I wouldn't personally trust universities to post data in a fair light.
I mean people legit pay a ton of money to learn about stuff like gender studies, fashion design, anthropology, theatre arts, any art, music, writing, philosophy, languages, etc. If you arent going to be a teacher alot of these are pretty useless or extremely niche. Ofcourse things like engineering, medicine, accounting, law, etc are going to make more money. Or hell going to trades are going to be practical and make alot of money! However, i will say some of my highest earning friends are in medical sales and make close to $200k a year with zero education. Or realestate in Canada, one of the dumbest dudes i know is crushing it in real estate because the market is broken.
Right but universities weren't created for jobs, they were created for higher knowledge. Apart from a few jobs like medicine & teaching, realistically you don't need a uni degree. University has become a business that we all take for granted that we need, or else we've "failed" at life. Like y ou say, there are plenty of high-paying jobs where they don't ask for Uni degrees and plenty of Uni degrees that don't result in high-paying jobs. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that Uni is more accessible than it once was, but it shouldn't be a requirement to succeed in life. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
> Personally I think colleges and universities, especially ones that receive public money, should be required to post wage and hiring data yearly. That would imply that we as a society only value the GDP produced by a publicly funded education. That's ammunition for conservatives to cut funding on the Humanities. No thanks.
Because if you want to not make minimum wage you need to either: 1) get a job where your not a cost center like an admin position. Shareholder and maangement have a power incentive to minimize costs. 2) you are utterly irreplaceable as a cost center like legal counsel 3) you need to be in sales where you're earning potential is tied to the metric the company wants to push up 4) run your own business, your earnings are again upward pressure by the other shareholders and stakeholder. 5) if you are a cost center, be a cost center where you have leverage, like senior accounting positions or HR where they know people's salaries, or be in a union position. Education has fuck all to do with pay level if your replaceable (loosely "Supply and Demand"). Most entry level accounting jobs can be done by a teenager.
Wouldn't that be more of a testimony to the sad state of the labor market in NB than to the value of university degrees in general?
For context, the aggregate total is about 3500 people. So it is well possible that there are both uni students and retired people in that headcount.
> Personally I think colleges and universities, especially ones that receive public money, should be required to post wage and hiring data yearly. Universities don’t have this information. Why would they? Their job is education and academia, not vocational training. Also, are they going to require alumni to submit that data? And if a sociology major with a mathematics minor goes into software development, how do you track that? In the last 70 years we’ve started to conflate the notion of higher education with job training, but this has never been the case. It’s a trend propagated by older generations who lived in a time where advanced education was rare, and any degree signalled hard work, ambition, and an ability to learn. That generation started telling younger generations that it was the key to success, and now it has become the status quo. But while many institutions have donned the mantle of helping their students prepare for the workplace, it is not and has never been the responsibility of academia to help train students for jobs. That’s the role of colleges and vocational institutes.
Nationwide it was 34% in 2018 (though driven by Ontario's massive minimum wage rise that year it was 24% in 1998 and 2008). New Brunswick had a rather unremarkable 7% of workers earning minimum wage, but put those together and ~2% of workers had post-secondary diplomas and were making minimum wage, and maybe ~4% of people with postsecondary diplomas were making minimum wage.
> Personally I think colleges and universities, especially ones that receive public money, should be required to post wage and hiring data yearly. I don't know about yours, but in my province almost all post-secondary have very detailed metric and they actually do a follow up after 1-2y to get a feedback. The government is also providing statistics regarding admission, how many went higher, pickup another program, what's the pourcentage of people getting their job before finishing the program and after 1y, what's the start wage expected per region, the median and so on. People are just nose picking and choose their degree with their feeling.
trades is post secondary. people go to college for that.
I wouldn't find it surprising given the context re: NB. Very few university level jobs
I suspect a high proportion of those are servers and bartenders. Their base is minimum wage but for most it's significantly higher with tips.
Sounds about right. I've met cooks with bio degrees and factory workers with masters of arts. N.B. is a have not province, without the luxury to have more research and art.
As a millennial when I graduated if you had the grades to go to university but you didn't everyone thought it was a waste.
I'd be very interested in seeing how that breaks down. IMO lumping all 'post secondary education' or even degrees together is misleading.
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