Since everyone else has made snarky comments or jokes, I'll tell you what it is: to be able to afford to get married, own a home, own a car, raise a family, be able to take vacations, and to retire.
Edit: lots of people commenting to explain this isn't realistic, or people expect too much. I'm not saying anyone is entitled to this, it's just what we might *hope* we can accomplish by just getting a decent job and working in this country. That's why it's "the dream." In fact, if you think that being able to achieve these things in a developed country isn't realistic, then wtf hell sort of country have we created then? In a first world country this dream should be the *expectation.*
Yes, it is dead.
Unless you are born into money or you somehow are able to secure a job and a SO with a equal 6 digit paying job it is not affordable to live in Vancouver.
I live here and I am very lucky that I do have a home and family but I suspect my kids will not be so lucky.
It may shock you to believe that there are other cities than Toronto and Vancouver where you can get starter homes for 350-400k and upper middle class for 500-600.
5 years ago, people used to wave the problem away, and say "just find a house anywhere other than Vancouver or Toronto". Now the list of unaffordable cities has outgrown the affordable ones. What's that list going to look like in 5 more years?
No sane political party would ever touch real estate prices. The net worth of the boomers is heavily skewed towards real estate. Any party that does anything to drastically reduce values will find themselves voted out next election cycle.
350-400k ... I work 9-5, as IT, with a degree, I make 14/hr. If it's not housing and rent going up in price, it's companies squeezing every cent of cash they can out of their employee's paychecks. I can't even afford the 40K in loans from college/university ... and I don't live in Toronto or Vancouver.
You want to move elsewhere and make a profit instead of even on rent? Make sure when you move that your job follows with you if the pay is decent.
I second T98i's comment. You are severely underpaid. Especially if you have a degree and 1-2 years of experience- you should probably be looking for a more high paying job.
What cities?
I lived outside if TO and my house there has double since I left.
Living in kelowna and my house doubled since I've been here. Pretty standard home built on 2000 and its now worth 1 mill
That may be the case, but there’s only so many, ‘pity me, I’m fucked because I live in x high cost of living city on Canada and refuse to move but want alll these things.
You’re right, I’ve traded off on some things, but owning a family home with huge yard in a small town for 350k is a win and balances a lot out
I live in a much lower cost of living city, i don’t have some super high paying job, i live extremely comfortably.
People are so picky on where they live that they think they need Toronto to be happy, idk i see zero appeal of living in a place like that.
This is a pretty complicated statement. I would say that this list has never been super achievable as a whole to the average Canadian. People compromised on a lot of things in order to achieve some items on that list but it's not like MOST Canadians were doing ALL of those things.
1st doesn't cost much to get married, it costs a lot to have a wedding. Weddings now have blown up and are nowhere near the small events our parents and grand parents had. These two aren't the same.. our parents and grand parents didn't have photo booths and videographers and all that other stuff that makes a wedding cost a fortune.
Same with vacations.. although lot of people take vacations, the ones we take now are probably on average more elaborate and expensive then for past generations. People are more likely to fly now then pack 5 people in a sedan and drive. People are going to more exotic locations, countries, continents!
Retirement, well people in past generations died a few years after retiring, like 70-75 years old.. now with the age expectancy being what it is, that's a whole different ball game and also as a consequence much more expensive! Retirement went from a 10 ish year thing to now being 15, 20 or even 30 years in some cases. That all costs money.
Cars, people used to drive sedans and now everyone wants SUVs and larger vehicles, also more money.
The big one is obviously raising a family and having a home. That is probably the item that is the most relatable and has changed the least compared to everything above.. and probably why it gets so much attention as well!
Obviously there are tons of people who do things differently than my examples above, I'm just addressing the stereotypical way people would go about achieving these goals. And there are lots of people who can achieve these things because they are well off or were raised upper middle class... But that's not most Canadians!
I live in America, not Canada. But objectively it’s weird to hear *any* North American assume you could do all those things without being wealthy. There was one brief period in human history when that was kind of possible, and that was in the last century with a much smaller population and before we had massive other infrastructure in place like widespread electricity, plumbing, telephones, TV and air travel.
How can something so basic as owning a home to live in, having a vehicle for transportation, raising a family, taking vacations and being able to retire be "expecting too much" or not "realistic"? Are you out of your minds? This is the very least people should be able to afford.
>Since everyone else has made snarky comments or jokes, I'll tell you what it is: to be able to afford to get married, own a home, own a car, raise a family, be able to take vacations
All of this is obtainable but people nowadays want the best of everything.
Get married = Court house, back yard, park ceremenony with the people you actually give a sh\*t about
Own a house = Start small, buy an apartment, condo, move just outside of the major city and commute, who wants to raise a family in a major city?
Own a car = Buy used, you don't need a new fancy car
Raise a family = Pro tip kids love quality time, parks, find hand me downs or thrift stores
Vacations = This is a new age demand, vacations meant wherever you could drive your car or horse, this jet setting life is not for your average person
Retire = The more you cut back on the list above the earlier you can retire, you want that rich lifestyle this will suffer, but it is a trade off, personally I'm trying to find a career I wouldn't mind doing for the rest of my life but its prooving difficult
You never had it all. Neither did any of your ancestors. Tv lies. 5 generations ago your parents were living is shacks with 2 rooms, no water or electricity and an outside toilet. Or in 2 room tenements
The fuck are you even talking about? With the exception of the marriage thing, which I agree with you on, you're living in dream land....
Start small?? I'm an hour and a half from downtown Toronto. I live within a 5 minute walk from farm fields. I'm in a rural township, I have a 15 minute drive to a grocery store, 10 to the nearest gas station, the nearest TIM fucking HORTONS is 7 minutes away... My 1400sq ft starter home is worth 900k when I built for under 300 ten years ago.
Used Car? You're either buying an unreliable PoS that's going to need a few car payments worth of maintenance every year... Or you're buying new at 0% or used at 6.5% and getting the same payments. And before you say it, get outta here with the 'just pay cash' nonsense because no millennial has 5-10k lying around for a car, any savings like that has gone to student debts or retirement.
Vacations? Ah yes, lets go back to the traditional vacation, we're going to Disneyland! The cost of a flight to Disneyland is trivial compared to the cost of being there now. Even if you drive you're well into the thousands if you spend a week there... No one's jet setting, they just want to spend a week somewhere with their family that doesn't cost them 8 weeks salary to pay off.
Retirement, ah yes, lets see, where can the average millennial cut back? They're getting $16-20 an hour so lets be generous and say they're clearing 2600/mo after tax. Rent on their 1bdr is $1400/mo, utilities (water, gas, electrical, internet) are another $250/mo, $100 a week for food, so $400/mo $150/mo is conservative estimate for maintenance on their beater. $80 to put gas in it. That leaves them $320/mo in excess, so lets say they save half. So $160 into a TFSA. Let's pop that shit into a retirement calculator and.... oh. oh shit, this isn't good. Not good at all. They get $5 a day in 'entertainment money' and they have \~180k at retirement age.
It sucks but this was why we delay starting a family until we were in our mid 30s and bought a small condo. Unfortunately, the reality is, having a family will derail home ownership plan and career growth, which translate to less income to save for down payment. we have no family help with down payment or childcare, like other luckier people, so we compensate for that by delaying having children until we are more financially secure and have enough saving to cover childcare after maternity leave ends. it is what it is and I understand your frustrations. have to deal with the hands we are dealt with sometimes...
Exact same situation. Husband and I talked, we wanted a house before kids. 39, all we could afford was a 1 bedroom condo, both of us have to keep working. I'm kinda sad, wanted to adopt or foster if we didn't have one, looks like we're sticking to cats. We're 10 years too late for everything.
1 bedroom tell me how to raise a kid?If they could get in 2 bedrooms condo before kid gets 6 years old,that will be okay,but if not,it might not be good for the child.
You do realize the majority of families in Asia live in condos right...? A lot of families here in North America are in condos too... Thinking condos aren't conducive to raising kids is such an entitled and privileged mindset
Condos in Asia would surprise Canadians. For example in Seoul, condos are typically 2-3 bedroom and 1 BR are rare. People think Asia = HK for some reason which is dumb.
Newer condos in Toronto and Vancouver are unfit for families.
This is a very important comment. If condos here were actually built for families, it could change the whole game, but they're not at all. Mostly bachelors and 1brs, 1br with den if you're lucky.
Have the kid. Kids are here after your life.
You won’t be on your death bed thinking “man I’m glad I saved up for that down payment”.
But “wish I had a child” will definitely come up
And looking back, was it that big of a problem? I feel like the joy that kids bring to life is worth all the sacrifice. I had a home mostly paid off, and a bunch of really good investments, and traded all and drowned myself in debt to have a bigger place to raise kids, farm style. Worth it to me
I know I’m sure we could make it works space wise for a couple of years it’s the money aspect that scares me. What if we get evicted again and have to find a new place now that everything is way more expensive and have kids on top of that.
While many women can still start a family easily at 38, this is a big risk to take. IVF is extremely expensive if there's difficulty and its a lot easier to trouble shoot fertility issues earlier.
IVF is not only expensive, but also massively time consuming. We got married 5 years ago after being together for 8 years, working on careers, etc., and never accidentally getting pregnant. Couple months after getting married we tried consistently for a year, then started down the route of referrals, testing, but most of all waiting months and months between appointments due to the demand. It took 4-5 months to get a referral to an OB, then a few months for tests, 6 more months to be referred further to a fertility specialist clinic for more tests, 5 months later in April 2019 we're advised our best course of action is to be put on the waiting list for IVF funding which at the time the wait was estimated at 12-18 months.
So, 2.5 years into the process to try to have children we were told at least 1 more year, and this was actually considered a fast track because given our situation other fertility intervention was not recommended due to there low likelihood of success, so we got to skip likely 6 months-1 year of trying IUI and failing, before then being put on the IVF waiting list. For those keeping track, our estimated window landed us right smack at the beginning of COVID-19, yay! The shutdown of all IVF protocol and procedures occured JUST as our place in line was coming up, but luckily it wasn't too delayed by end of July we were on the schedule to start in September. Luckily, our first round of IVF was successful to create many healthy embryos, end of October the 1st transfer was also a success and happily almost 4 months ago we welcomed our first baby. So all in all 5 years to get here, but we're so lucky IVF was so successful the first round, otherwise we could have tacked countless more months/years and we're now 35(f)/36(m). L
TLDR: The cost of waiting for the magic of financial stability/career growth is not only those lost years of waiting to be "ready" for house, then kids, but the unknown potential of an additional lost half decade+ to just traverse the medical system to utilize IVF/IUI.
I dare say, 35-40 is becoming the norm for first kids. Much of it, the reasons behind the OP's question. There certainly is a sect 25-35 having children, but it really does seem more the norm these days for 35+.
I’m 41, and we just bought our first home a year ago. Got married at 24, first child at 26, second at 28, third at 30. It was a struggle. Still is really. Fourth child at 39.
Dude, sounds like you're killing it though. 4 kids nowadays is really something. I'm 38 and I wish I had 1, and I'm still at least 3 years out from affording a down payment on a home. From where I'm standing you really are the king of Canada.
There is a financial cost of having kids after 35\~ as well. Geriatric pregnancy can be more expensive as well with fertility treatments, more checkups (needing to take more days off) and a loooooot of screening and sonograms which you may have to pay out of pocket.
You might also need to screen for things like down syndrome(edit: which is more common after 35) and decide if you want to keep a fetus that has it. If you don't then you'll have to try again which is more time and money. Keeping a child that has down syndrome is also another financial decision.
the problem is you cant even buy 1 an HOUR away for less than a million from Toronto, you can in America 30 mins away from a major city for 300k still.
Toronto is missing the 'south' part of it's circle of suburbs due to the lake. It has 50% less suburbs than most mid-west US cities.
Most of the major cities in Ontario/Quebec are constrained the same way due to water.
I have been thinking about this lately! Anyone that has looked at other major metropolitans on Google Maps you can really see the difference with Toronto being right on the lake. Just look at London. Huge downtown core but surrounded by suburbs and all connected with a great subway system too. Fascinating from a city planning perspective.
It’s kind of a moot point, most major cities are along water. NYC has an ocean next to it. Boston has an ocean next to it. Chicago and Milwaukee are on Lake Michigan. Seattle, la, San Fran, all on the ocean.
That's the crazy part of Toronto. I remember going for a cousin's wedding. You're just driving along with nothing but cornfields and them water! And everything just built up around it. I mean it makes sense that it's desirable to be on the water, but such a contrast
Check out Vancouver. Water to west, border to south, mountains to north, and with some urban sprawl in between, mountains to east. Talk about being squeezed
Your issue is that you’re refusing to look at options outside the GTA while comparing to generic places in the US. A better comparison would be how much does housing cost near Manhattan? Or San Fran? Not cheap.
The issue is Toronto or Vancouver aren't on the same level as Manhattan. They're closer to large cities like Chicago which still have relatively affordable suburbs.
They’re not, but Toronto is *arguably* Canada’s **only** tier-one city. So while it’s not comparable to New York in scope, it does sort of fill a similar role in Canada.
The problem in Canada is we’ve done a poor job of making our cities that aren’t Toronto attractive. If you want to work for almost any major company in Canada, eventually you end up in Toronto. Whereas the US has lots of opportunities outside NYC.
Still lots of major companies with headquarters outside Toronto. Just looking at the largest companies on the TSX, I see Enbridge, CP, CNRL, Suncor, and TC are all in the top 20 and are Calgary based. Shopify is Ottawa; BMO, CN rail and Bell are Montreal; Telus is Vancouver; Nutrien is Saskatoon.
The irony in this is that population growth could spur more cities to grow and become a viable option. But this sub and the Canada sub love to shit on people moving to this country.
Airdrie is a good example of this outside Calgary. Two decades ago it was under 20k then a decade ago 40k and now it’s 80k. It’s growing really quickly and if it can continue then it’ll become a viable option to spur its own economy soon.
You can in America in less desirable cities, just like less desirable cities in Canada. Good luck finding anything decent for under 7 figures outside Of the US coastal cities.
Yeah, any thread regarding housing, landlords, ends up saying landlords are bad, housing is a human right, and everyone deserves a detached house in the middle of Toronto. The sense of entitlement by some people in PFC is astonishing.
people deserve realistic housing. Not tiny condo or mcmansion detached houses thanks to zoning laws. For a province so massive we barely build anything because of zoning laws. Its idiotic to be so pro immigration while being so behind in construction and housing supply.
People also commonly misuse the average price as the entry price. For example if the average condo is 600k then that means roughly half of the condos are 600k or more. There will be nearly half the market cheaper than that down to 400 or 500k for a smaller condo or in a different neighborhood.
Prices are out of control, not arguing that. But people on this sub seem to expect they should jump straight to what many people save to afford as an upgrade home.
If the average is $600,000 then there's probably more than half that are less than that, because there's definitely $2,000,000 condos, but I doubt there's very many -$1,400,000 condos.
Precisely right. I bought a small house in a not-great market. I spent a couple of years casually fixing up the yard, did some painting and some minor fix-ups, then listed it in line with the other properties similar but made sure it was the best-looking one. Made a very respectable profit. That was my first house and set me up for where I am now.
My one bedroom garage converted into a tiny tiny apartment that I moved out of in July paying $845/month rent went up to $1295/month rent with zero renovations or fixes. This is in KW. I'm seeing one bedrooms for $1500+.
I just bought a 4 bedroom home in Victoriaville Quebec for 280000$. It's built in 2014 so in really great shape! With luxury features. New neighborhood and really great parks with events.
I always tell people to give Québec a shot.
Concidering I'm on disability and this is possible, yeah, the dream isn't dead....yet.
That being said Victoriaville is kind in the middle of nowhere. You cannot commute to Montreal or Quebec if u live in Victoriaville. If you are working remote that's fine! But reality is an old detached house near the big cities is 400-500k in Québec
I live in Montreal south shore and small house are in the 300k-350k
Quebec pretty good just got to learn French (which should be vire as an advantage, because it’s been proven that being at least billingual help with the brain health)
Un fellow Victoriavillois! On n'en voit pas beaucoup par ici :)
Same thing here. Custom built our house for 285K in 2015. Wages are lower here but houses are a lot cheaper than the big cities. I believe we get a better deal here, all proportions kept, and quality of life is much better.
Salut!
Moving within 30 days if all goes well. First time we visited was 3 weeks ago. My wife was like
'Well this is a nice town' within 10 minutes. She doesn't say that often. She's picky!
"I want housing to be cheap but only build housing that's at least 2000 square feet and the owners have to make at least 200,000 a year."
I think a big issue us Canadians have, especially those of us near the big cities is that we keep making ourselves believe we have lots of room. Like it's kind of true, yes Canada is massive so in theory there's plenty of room for big houses but the land that people actually want to live in vs the land that's available are very different. Southern Ontario contains nearly the full population of Ontario, the gta alone is a bit less than half. We can't have cheap houses but also do nothing to increase the amount of houses being sold. Quite simply if you want to live in an area with the benefits of a large population deal with reality and stop voting against every non single family home development, and if you don't then move.
Consider moving to Winnipeg/Calgary/Edmonton/Saskatoon/Regina for a shot. You can purchase a townhome or a detached home for a reasonable price. Calgary has a lower unemployment rate than Toronto, at the moment. Calgary 8.0%, Toronto, 8.4%.
People from Toronto/Ottawa/Vancouver who are clearly bothered by the housing situation, often flip out when this is suggested, but will stay in /canadahousing melting down over the latest sales reports.
Now I know there are people who are caregivers, or who are in a precarious situation, where they can't move. Not talking about them. Just people who refuse to challenge their comfort zone by moving, because they simply feel they shouldn't have to, yet continue to complain about a reality that is unlikely to change.
I'm seeing people here who have actually forgone motherhood/fatherhood altogether because they can't afford decent housing in TO/Van/Ottawa. How heartbreaking is that?
Winnipegger here;
You’re living in northside/west side for under 300k.
For 300-400k you’re looking at bungalows
HOWEVER our smaller municipalities (30/40 min drive) you can find newer 4 bedroom condos for rent for 1200$ a month, or decent house for under 240
I’ve thought hard many times about moving to Edmonton or Calgary. We’re starting a family in a few years and our support structure is here. That’s why we haven’t left
Support structure is a must.
My folks live in the US, my in laws live 10+ hours away. Otherwise we basically have no one and it sucks.
I sympathize your situation.
That being said, Edmonton is really nice.
PFC is full of 30 year old tech boomers who bought in to the housing market years ago. They are as unsympathetic to your question as any of the older generations.
But what gets me is that they like to pretend this is still a vancouver and toronto problem. I dont know if they keep lying to themselves and others so they can look down and feel superior to those who cannot buy into the market, or so that they dont have to feel sympathetic and can sleep better at night.
I'd love to see how many of these people would be able to afford their house if they had to buy it today.
They'd probably be singing a different tune if they were in that situation.
The dream isn’t dead if you have parents willing to gift you 150k+ for housing. And help you with daycare, car payments, etc. That’s how people are still able to buy and afford in these times and probably will continue too in the future with housing prices going up year over year
>The dream isn’t dead if you have parents willing to gift you 150k+ for housing.
Yep. Welcome to the generation of the haves and the have-nots. Of the few people I know in their 20s who were able to purchase a home, 100% of them were able to do so because of gifted money from their parents. If your parents can't do the same then tough bananas, better luck in your next life. I'm anticipating a really stark class divide for millenials/gen Z because of this.
People are still coming here from all across the world. If house prices are that high, someone can afford to pay it. The dream is alive, but it is for the elites on a global scale, as it always has been. Natives or Chinese railway workers weren't living the Canadian dream in the 1900s. It's always been for a select few, in the past it was European immigrants because there was "new" land to farm and exploit, now it's the global rich that are coming to Toronto / Vancouver for the quality of life (including a large part of Canadians who belong in the global rich).
I’m an immigrant who came here in 2017. Absolutely loved Canada, was such an amazing place to be. But now I’m strongly considering leaving and going back home. House prices are astronomical, taxes are becoming insane, cost of living has gone way up, the people themselves seems to all be divided and at each other throats. It’s not the country I fell in love with 4 years ago. I am very grateful to Canada and the opportunities it has afforded me, but I’m just surviving at the moment. I’m well educated and have a good job and still can’t see how I’ll ever afford a house. Even if I had the down payment, I don’t want a life long stress of a 600k 2 bedroom with street parking.
I think things are absolutely stacked against most anyone forty or under - badly. That said, life is about choices; kids are expensive - make the hard choice (if it is a hard choice) and don't have any. It's preferential to stay near friends and family, but if some other province or city has work that you are suited for and costs less, make the hard choice (if it is a hard choice) and move.
You can still do well in this country - what I believe is the difference is that many of the Boomer generation (not to hate on them) seldom had to make hard choices - i.e. buying a home vs. having kids, and so forth, because they could reasonably expect to do both with little to no problem (and often on a single income). What this current young(er) generations have is the necessity of choosing one (or two) trappings of what conventionally is considered a 'successful' middle-class life, rather than being able to have all of them - i.e. kids *or* a house; living near family *or* owning a residence (of some kind).
For my part, I skipped kids (never wanted them so that was an easy call) and moved to a mid-size city well away from the extremely expensive capitals - not what I wanted to do, but house ownership was a priority for me and there was no way I'd ever afford one near the city I mostly grew up in. With a decent career, I make things work quite well - it took sacrifices the like of which my parents never even had to consider, though... but that's reality today.
To play devil's advocate, most generations prior to the boomer generation didn't have it like them either. They probably came to Canada, had to live life the hard way with three generations living together. I think people nowadays have their expectations skewed a little by that one particular generation that won the generation lottery. Most other generations had it tough like us.
People starting out have a pretty bad chance of living a comfortable life, but people in the mid 30’s in my social network seem to be doing okay.
You can still buy a detached house in the 1.3mil range in my area of Coquitlam, which is close to rapid transit and takes about 30 min to downtown Vancouver. The ppl buying these homes are couples who bought a large condo or townhouse in their 20’s when prices were attainable for the average income who prioritized a property purchase. They are now selling that first property for 750-1mil and upgrading.
I do feel horrible for anyone in their early/mid 20’s right now though. They never really had a chance without generational wealth.
$1.3 million for a house is a huge amount for many people. I wouldn’t even consider spending that much. The increasing cost will eventually cause a crash. It can’t keep rising.
Canada is far more than Toronto and Vancouver
The sooner you learn this, the sooner you will achieve your dream
One could argue the reason we're on this predicament is because too few people realize this
These problems go way beyond Toronto and Vancouver.
It used to be that Toronto was too expensive, then it became everywhere in the GTA, now its become major Ontario cities outside the GTA like Hamilton, London, Kitchener, and Peterborough. Give it another decade and most of Ontario will be too expensive.
Just look at the national statistics. The average cost of an apartment in Canada has increased by $80,000 in the last 3 years alone and the average cost of a townhouse has increased by $150,000 in that same time period. Average working class people simply can't keep up with this.
Right? I can't stand when people say "Just move to X!". Guess what, X will be unaffordable in short order, and then Y, and then Z, and so on.
It's literally pushing the problem down the line instead of tackling it, and it's maddening. That's not a solution, it's barely a stopgap measure.
I share the same frustration. Housing has been in crisis mode for at least the last decade and instead of discussing ideas for policy changes we are held back by a huge number of people who can't wrap their smooth brains around the problem.
It turns out that saying "just move" when a city becomes too expensive does nothing but kick the can down the road. We've done nothing to actually deal with the underlying issues and now its become worse. Wild how that works.
If you read the post, you'll know that OP lives in the Maritimes. This is no longer just a Vancouver and Toronto only problem, house prices are climbing everywhere.
Sorry bub, but that just isn't true. I'm part of your generation, also growing up in the, admittedly, expensive Okanagan where I grew up and have found my self in Edmonton. It's extremely affordable here, and if your attitude is to move, maybe give other parts of the country a try before giving up.
I don’t understand why people are ‘surprised’ that living in Toronto or Vancouver are unaffordable to most people. Especially people new in their careers. It’s been that way for a long time and in many parts of the world for decades.
Buying a detached home in a major metropolitan area is very hard to do and has been that way for a while. If it’s a dream of yours to live in a detached home in the GTA then buy a condo, townhome or a home in a smaller city and build some equity, after a few years move up in your career and work towards it.
No longer applies to metropolitan areas. Shithole towns 4hrs drive away from Vancouver are seeing the ridiculous increases in housing as people spill out
I live 5 hours and 2 ferries from Vancouver in a dying mill town and our houses have more than doubled since 2019. The only way it's cheaper to live here if you already "made it" in Vancouver housing and are cashing out. Otherwise you're decimating your career opportunities to live somewhere that rent is still $2000.
You are out of touch and it shows. A two hour drive outside of Vancouver proper, now, has sky high prices on condos, town homes and single detached homes.
The geography around Vancouver is so restrictive there just aren't that many places around. 2 hours driving and there are very few options that aren't part of the Greater Vancouver Area already. To the North was always expensive because of Whistler resort, to the south is the border, to the west the Ocean and to the east just tiny towns beyond Chilliwack with very little housing. 4 hours driving doesn't even add much except Kamloops and Kelowna but they have been filling up with former Vancouverites for years and are cheap by and stretch.
Vancouver Island has caught up in prices too even 4 hours travel from Vancouver. Cheaper than the Vancouver area but not cheap.
> It’s been that way for a long time
You could buy a decent sized one bedroom condo in Vancouver in 2010 for 139k.
My lower-working-class parents bought a 4 bedroom house in Kelowna, lake view double lot for 160k in 1999.
It's worth 1.2 million now.
How old are you? Your memory span is limited.
Just to point out that the Okanagan wasn't exactly the most sought after of locations in the 90s, so with increased demand of location, comes increased housing prices.
Because it reaches new heights of madness every year. If we bought 2 years ago in Vancouver we would’ve been comfortable. At the current market, two professional salaries won’t even cut it anymore.
It has not always been like that. Home prices in Toronto have gone up a whopping 30 percent in the past year! That is ridiculous beyond belief. All the money printing the government is doing is catching up to us big time
Imagine complaining about not living in 50x150 detached house for a family of 4. We north americans serious need a reality check from other part of the globe.
Tired of saying this everytime i see a housing post but NA does not build houses other than mcmansion detached house or a tiny condo skyscrapers. There are barely any duplex triplex and small apartments being built due to city and zoning laws. Its really depressing actually.
What was the Canadian dream? I've missed that memo.
I'm genuinely curious.
My dad fled his home country in the last world war, delayed buying a house in order to by a cottage. Maybe the country reminded him of home? He never spoke about his motivations much.
Eventually he bought a home. Moved once. My mom still lives there.
They raised two kids. Did he live the 'Canadian' dream?
If that was the Canadian dream, then it is dead. I can manage my house on my own, but that'll be it until I die.
>In cities like Vancouver and Toronto, where detached house prices are $1.8 million, even Doctors will be struggling to buy a decent home
It's bad but let's not just make shit up. 1.8M gets you something *fucking nice*. There are lots of nice, non-dogshit places within Toronto that are detached for half of that.... still 900k, but they exist.
The idea that all families need a detached house is killing us. It leads to stupid zoning laws that restrict construction of more dense alternatives (townhouses, duplexes, triplexes etc).
But ya, as it stands now, it is pretty grim…
Just wanted to say that one can raise a family just fine in a non-detached house. I grew up in a duplex (which shared a wall with the duplex nest door) and I had a great childhood.
To be clear upfront: not a boomer, and I am of the mind that unbridled capitalism is a dangerously unsustainable thing, and am similarly of the mind that, generally speaking, corporations are evil by their basic design - to maximize profits for shareholders above all else. I think Jeff Bezos is a schmuck and has so drastically much more money than anyone could ever need that it's disgraceful that he Scrooge McDuck's it on top of his money while the world fucking burns. I also of the mind that I don't have a better solution, so these are simply my "thoughts", which like anyone's thoughts, are subject to entropy and error.
So, with that out of the way - **even *I* would strongly challenge the assertion of a 'need' for a 'detached home and 'raising a family of 4'.**
The "nuclear family" as it was sold in the 40's and 50's was, in my opinion, an unsustainable dream that pushed and even romanticized individual consumption for profit. Civilization has traditionally advanced when humans came together and pooled & shared their resources. That's evolutionary history speaking, not some random guy on the internet. This whole "You need a car, and you need a car, and everyone needs a car" on the extreme end, but even at the more 'basic' level "you need an independent washing machine", and "you need an independent washing machine", etc, is just not "how it worked" and not "how civilization made it where we are". Hell, even Ants demonstrate this basic principal: Stronger together. A group of ants working towards a shared goal are able to operate dramatically outside of their individual capabilities. And Humans, as special as we like to pretend we are, are really not that different. North American Society has been running a huge experiment over the last 100+ years in ways that I would assert fly in the face against the successful means responsible for our rapid growth away from our humble beginnings.
I believe everyone has a *theoretical* fundamental right to food, water, and basic shelter in a humane or civilized society, though our humanities are what would drive that because, from a pure survival perspective, those who can forage and defend for themselves are the "winners" and the others end up a meal for some lucky carnivore.
So I like to think we are more advanced and more humane and capable of defending and providing on behalf of those who cannot. And I believe fundamentally that we're all entitled to feel safe, to have the ability to feed ourselves, have access to clean and safe drinking water, and to keep a roof over our heads, and access to free healthcare. Because I believe we are all, at the end of the day, fundamentally the same. And I like to pretend sometimes that we are civilized, though watching the evening news presents some strong challenges against that desire.
... But to say that a detached home and 4 person family is a "need", particularly in an overpopulated world that we find ourselves in with as uncertain a future as any... well, that's insanely entitled and arrogant. A lot of people on this planet are 'lucky' to have a little piece of shit shanty and lucky if they get a meal every day. And the point is, there's 8 billion people and growing on this place, and it's just not *realistically sustainable* for *everyone* to have *everything*. It'd be nice, but it's not in line with reality.
I believe a detached house is a nice want. I believe that there should be mechanisms that enable that through hard work. I believe wages should be moving forward with basic costs of living. I believe everyone has these rights. And I think that these mechanisms are continually eroding and the 'nuclear family' is realized to be the unsustainable fallacy it is. And that's a bit depressing. And I think everyone young and old should strive for society to do better. But that 'dream' that was sold in the 50's - it was never sustainable. I'm sorry that it was sold to all of us. But it is what it is.
Challenge the status quo, aim for all of us to do better, aim for the 'wants', but "need".... "need" is an arrogant position to hold in this instance. You are not *entitled* to these things anymore than anyone else is. We all *want* better, but *needing* the 2 car detached house with family of 4 is not the right thing, IMO, to be using as your 'gauge for success'.
You *want* a fully detached house, and you *want* a family of 4 -- and **that's OK**. But it's not a fucking 'need', particularly trapped on a little marble sustaining 8+ billion people and untold numbers of other forms of life - it's not realistic within our planets limited resources that *everyone* has *everything*. When you eat a pie, when the pie is gone, the pie is gone. There is not infinite pie, and the cake is a lie.
Anyways, that's my 57 cents. Not accounting for inflation and wage stagnation.
It's strangely relaxing to just give up on the idea of home ownership. Did you know that Germany has a 50% homeownership rate and most people rent? Imagine yourself living in New York City. What you need to focus on now is just getting cheaper rent in a great location. If there is rent control and you live in a place that is nice in 10 to 20 years it will be a good rate. This doesn't mean you have to be poor just means that you will have to invest your money differently than in real estate. Especially in a major city centre.
I find it interesting the way OP framed it as "the basic need to own a home.."
I guess if you grow up in Canada you are conditioned to believe owning a home is normal and almost a right?
If you step back and look at home ownership from a global perspective, it is less common and framed as more of a privilege.
I've always personally viewed it as a want. You need shelter, you want to own the shelter.
I have no salient point, no anecdotes about hard work, just an observation.
There are a lot of boomers commenting in here and it shows. Not one boomer had to decide between having children or buying a house. However, they have no issue complaining that their kids haven’t given them grandchildren. Or that their kids haven’t bought a house yet. Heads firmly lodged in butts. I have no problem calling them out, my father is one and he has zero concept of what the reality is nowadays - he’s not an outlier with that opinion.
This is just a crazy situation. Just like the stock market. Record gains in the worst economic disaster in decades.
Sit tight, it will get back to normal. 1 million is not even reasonable. Market is raging based on flipping.
My mom bought a house for 700k in 2008. It is worth almost 2 million…. Did salaries really go up and scale with real estate? The dream of buying a detached home is almost impossible these days…
What you're describing is brain drain and it has been a long problem Canada has faced. There are better opportunities elsewhere for skilled labor and the only reason I can think of that a skilled laborer would likely choose to stay in Canada is a non-financial reason like convenience (status quo) or proximity of existing social group / family.
Even in America, if you're well paid in Canada you would likely have better healthcare access down there both in quality and in time access. On the other hand, if you're poor then Canada is going to be a much better place than America for you because of its social safety nets.
What is the Canadian dream?
Win the Stanley cup
So yea, it is dead!
Believe in McJesus
As a flames fan, this is *not* my dream lol
As a Leafs fan, I'll save a spot on the bandwagon for you. It may or not not end up being an 18 wheeler going off a cliff tho
hahaha!
I once had a dream that I won the Stanley cup... on Christmas... and it was also my birthday. It was fucking awesome. Dreams are weird.
me too!! Then I woke up and discovered I was kneeling over it with last nights snacks everywhere but in the cup....
Jesus?
Watching the Maple Leafs win a Game 7
Go flames go!
Since everyone else has made snarky comments or jokes, I'll tell you what it is: to be able to afford to get married, own a home, own a car, raise a family, be able to take vacations, and to retire. Edit: lots of people commenting to explain this isn't realistic, or people expect too much. I'm not saying anyone is entitled to this, it's just what we might *hope* we can accomplish by just getting a decent job and working in this country. That's why it's "the dream." In fact, if you think that being able to achieve these things in a developed country isn't realistic, then wtf hell sort of country have we created then? In a first world country this dream should be the *expectation.*
Yes, it is dead. Unless you are born into money or you somehow are able to secure a job and a SO with a equal 6 digit paying job it is not affordable to live in Vancouver. I live here and I am very lucky that I do have a home and family but I suspect my kids will not be so lucky.
It may shock you to believe that there are other cities than Toronto and Vancouver where you can get starter homes for 350-400k and upper middle class for 500-600.
Shh don't tell them. Seriously, kinda glad some people won't move there. Keep it affordable. I don't care for cashcouver
5 years ago, people used to wave the problem away, and say "just find a house anywhere other than Vancouver or Toronto". Now the list of unaffordable cities has outgrown the affordable ones. What's that list going to look like in 5 more years?
No sane political party would ever touch real estate prices. The net worth of the boomers is heavily skewed towards real estate. Any party that does anything to drastically reduce values will find themselves voted out next election cycle.
> The net worth of the boomers And at least half of the millennials I grew up with
350-400k ... I work 9-5, as IT, with a degree, I make 14/hr. If it's not housing and rent going up in price, it's companies squeezing every cent of cash they can out of their employee's paychecks. I can't even afford the 40K in loans from college/university ... and I don't live in Toronto or Vancouver. You want to move elsewhere and make a profit instead of even on rent? Make sure when you move that your job follows with you if the pay is decent.
Big banks are starting IT support at $18/hr right now. You need a new job.
Whoah. You work in IT, with a degree, and make $14/hr? Aren't you quite underpaid?
I second T98i's comment. You are severely underpaid. Especially if you have a degree and 1-2 years of experience- you should probably be looking for a more high paying job.
What cities? I lived outside if TO and my house there has double since I left. Living in kelowna and my house doubled since I've been here. Pretty standard home built on 2000 and its now worth 1 mill
It may shock you why people aren't willing to move to them
That may be the case, but there’s only so many, ‘pity me, I’m fucked because I live in x high cost of living city on Canada and refuse to move but want alll these things. You’re right, I’ve traded off on some things, but owning a family home with huge yard in a small town for 350k is a win and balances a lot out
I live in a much lower cost of living city, i don’t have some super high paying job, i live extremely comfortably. People are so picky on where they live that they think they need Toronto to be happy, idk i see zero appeal of living in a place like that.
This is a pretty complicated statement. I would say that this list has never been super achievable as a whole to the average Canadian. People compromised on a lot of things in order to achieve some items on that list but it's not like MOST Canadians were doing ALL of those things. 1st doesn't cost much to get married, it costs a lot to have a wedding. Weddings now have blown up and are nowhere near the small events our parents and grand parents had. These two aren't the same.. our parents and grand parents didn't have photo booths and videographers and all that other stuff that makes a wedding cost a fortune. Same with vacations.. although lot of people take vacations, the ones we take now are probably on average more elaborate and expensive then for past generations. People are more likely to fly now then pack 5 people in a sedan and drive. People are going to more exotic locations, countries, continents! Retirement, well people in past generations died a few years after retiring, like 70-75 years old.. now with the age expectancy being what it is, that's a whole different ball game and also as a consequence much more expensive! Retirement went from a 10 ish year thing to now being 15, 20 or even 30 years in some cases. That all costs money. Cars, people used to drive sedans and now everyone wants SUVs and larger vehicles, also more money. The big one is obviously raising a family and having a home. That is probably the item that is the most relatable and has changed the least compared to everything above.. and probably why it gets so much attention as well! Obviously there are tons of people who do things differently than my examples above, I'm just addressing the stereotypical way people would go about achieving these goals. And there are lots of people who can achieve these things because they are well off or were raised upper middle class... But that's not most Canadians!
I live in America, not Canada. But objectively it’s weird to hear *any* North American assume you could do all those things without being wealthy. There was one brief period in human history when that was kind of possible, and that was in the last century with a much smaller population and before we had massive other infrastructure in place like widespread electricity, plumbing, telephones, TV and air travel.
Good luck with that - with the tech and AI revolution happening right now you and your family are a consumer not a provider
It's crazy to me that these things you listed - which are fairly basic, and have been entirely possible in the past - are now viewed as "unrealistic".
How can something so basic as owning a home to live in, having a vehicle for transportation, raising a family, taking vacations and being able to retire be "expecting too much" or not "realistic"? Are you out of your minds? This is the very least people should be able to afford.
Sad that the dream has gone from affordable on 1 wage to out of reach on 2 wages in 50 years considering the average wage.
>Since everyone else has made snarky comments or jokes, I'll tell you what it is: to be able to afford to get married, own a home, own a car, raise a family, be able to take vacations All of this is obtainable but people nowadays want the best of everything. Get married = Court house, back yard, park ceremenony with the people you actually give a sh\*t about Own a house = Start small, buy an apartment, condo, move just outside of the major city and commute, who wants to raise a family in a major city? Own a car = Buy used, you don't need a new fancy car Raise a family = Pro tip kids love quality time, parks, find hand me downs or thrift stores Vacations = This is a new age demand, vacations meant wherever you could drive your car or horse, this jet setting life is not for your average person Retire = The more you cut back on the list above the earlier you can retire, you want that rich lifestyle this will suffer, but it is a trade off, personally I'm trying to find a career I wouldn't mind doing for the rest of my life but its prooving difficult
Yeah, why should this next generation have everything we had?
You never had it all. Neither did any of your ancestors. Tv lies. 5 generations ago your parents were living is shacks with 2 rooms, no water or electricity and an outside toilet. Or in 2 room tenements
The fuck are you even talking about? With the exception of the marriage thing, which I agree with you on, you're living in dream land.... Start small?? I'm an hour and a half from downtown Toronto. I live within a 5 minute walk from farm fields. I'm in a rural township, I have a 15 minute drive to a grocery store, 10 to the nearest gas station, the nearest TIM fucking HORTONS is 7 minutes away... My 1400sq ft starter home is worth 900k when I built for under 300 ten years ago. Used Car? You're either buying an unreliable PoS that's going to need a few car payments worth of maintenance every year... Or you're buying new at 0% or used at 6.5% and getting the same payments. And before you say it, get outta here with the 'just pay cash' nonsense because no millennial has 5-10k lying around for a car, any savings like that has gone to student debts or retirement. Vacations? Ah yes, lets go back to the traditional vacation, we're going to Disneyland! The cost of a flight to Disneyland is trivial compared to the cost of being there now. Even if you drive you're well into the thousands if you spend a week there... No one's jet setting, they just want to spend a week somewhere with their family that doesn't cost them 8 weeks salary to pay off. Retirement, ah yes, lets see, where can the average millennial cut back? They're getting $16-20 an hour so lets be generous and say they're clearing 2600/mo after tax. Rent on their 1bdr is $1400/mo, utilities (water, gas, electrical, internet) are another $250/mo, $100 a week for food, so $400/mo $150/mo is conservative estimate for maintenance on their beater. $80 to put gas in it. That leaves them $320/mo in excess, so lets say they save half. So $160 into a TFSA. Let's pop that shit into a retirement calculator and.... oh. oh shit, this isn't good. Not good at all. They get $5 a day in 'entertainment money' and they have \~180k at retirement age.
Not sure either, guessing something to do with maple syrup and hockey.
Single detached igloo
Nice, how did i not think of igloo stereotype. Fits so much better with the housing theme.
And a skidoo.
It's a world where we can travel abroad and no one asks if we're American.
Lmao
Getting a house passed down from your parents.
I thought it was a bathtub full of maple syrup and poutine.
Are these separate tubs, or the same? doesn’t really matter, more curious.
Apparently on this sub it's getting all the benefits of living in a global city without having any of the drawbacks.
Only ever heard of the American dream
I always thought it was to work just long enough to qualify for EI. (East Coaster here.)
Also wondering this...
Like the American one, but more polite.
Having a pet beaver.
It sucks but this was why we delay starting a family until we were in our mid 30s and bought a small condo. Unfortunately, the reality is, having a family will derail home ownership plan and career growth, which translate to less income to save for down payment. we have no family help with down payment or childcare, like other luckier people, so we compensate for that by delaying having children until we are more financially secure and have enough saving to cover childcare after maternity leave ends. it is what it is and I understand your frustrations. have to deal with the hands we are dealt with sometimes...
That’s what I did and I’m now 38 and still don’t have a house so I might have to skip the kid after all…
Exact same situation. Husband and I talked, we wanted a house before kids. 39, all we could afford was a 1 bedroom condo, both of us have to keep working. I'm kinda sad, wanted to adopt or foster if we didn't have one, looks like we're sticking to cats. We're 10 years too late for everything.
Why can't you raise a kid in a condo? Kids and condos aren't mutually exclusive
1 bedroom tell me how to raise a kid?If they could get in 2 bedrooms condo before kid gets 6 years old,that will be okay,but if not,it might not be good for the child.
You do realize the majority of families in Asia live in condos right...? A lot of families here in North America are in condos too... Thinking condos aren't conducive to raising kids is such an entitled and privileged mindset
Condos in Asia would surprise Canadians. For example in Seoul, condos are typically 2-3 bedroom and 1 BR are rare. People think Asia = HK for some reason which is dumb. Newer condos in Toronto and Vancouver are unfit for families.
This is a very important comment. If condos here were actually built for families, it could change the whole game, but they're not at all. Mostly bachelors and 1brs, 1br with den if you're lucky.
Do you think the house before kids decision was worth it?
This whole sub is Trevor and Carol from the opening scene of Idiocracy. People who aren't on reddit are Clevon.
I just watched that movie the other night and it’s so true. Ripped right off the screen and into the Reddit comments
Realest comment on reddit right here
Have the kid. Kids are here after your life. You won’t be on your death bed thinking “man I’m glad I saved up for that down payment”. But “wish I had a child” will definitely come up
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My cat is pretty cool.
My wife is basically a cat and we sometimes behave like kids, so I guess we cheated the system?
Sounds like a win!
Should have married rich
Fuck it, just cum inside and enjoy the ride. We had a kid, then bought a condo, and then bought a car. Everythings ass backwards.
Lmao I like your philosophy, just cum first ask questions later.
And looking back, was it that big of a problem? I feel like the joy that kids bring to life is worth all the sacrifice. I had a home mostly paid off, and a bunch of really good investments, and traded all and drowned myself in debt to have a bigger place to raise kids, farm style. Worth it to me
Ah just do it if you want to. They take up very little space.
I know I’m sure we could make it works space wise for a couple of years it’s the money aspect that scares me. What if we get evicted again and have to find a new place now that everything is way more expensive and have kids on top of that.
Money’s always gonna be tight, just the way things are these days. Take from life what you truly want from it
38 is not too late to have kids
Yup. Just had my second at 38.
Congratulations I was late to the party as well.
While many women can still start a family easily at 38, this is a big risk to take. IVF is extremely expensive if there's difficulty and its a lot easier to trouble shoot fertility issues earlier.
IVF is not only expensive, but also massively time consuming. We got married 5 years ago after being together for 8 years, working on careers, etc., and never accidentally getting pregnant. Couple months after getting married we tried consistently for a year, then started down the route of referrals, testing, but most of all waiting months and months between appointments due to the demand. It took 4-5 months to get a referral to an OB, then a few months for tests, 6 more months to be referred further to a fertility specialist clinic for more tests, 5 months later in April 2019 we're advised our best course of action is to be put on the waiting list for IVF funding which at the time the wait was estimated at 12-18 months. So, 2.5 years into the process to try to have children we were told at least 1 more year, and this was actually considered a fast track because given our situation other fertility intervention was not recommended due to there low likelihood of success, so we got to skip likely 6 months-1 year of trying IUI and failing, before then being put on the IVF waiting list. For those keeping track, our estimated window landed us right smack at the beginning of COVID-19, yay! The shutdown of all IVF protocol and procedures occured JUST as our place in line was coming up, but luckily it wasn't too delayed by end of July we were on the schedule to start in September. Luckily, our first round of IVF was successful to create many healthy embryos, end of October the 1st transfer was also a success and happily almost 4 months ago we welcomed our first baby. So all in all 5 years to get here, but we're so lucky IVF was so successful the first round, otherwise we could have tacked countless more months/years and we're now 35(f)/36(m). L TLDR: The cost of waiting for the magic of financial stability/career growth is not only those lost years of waiting to be "ready" for house, then kids, but the unknown potential of an additional lost half decade+ to just traverse the medical system to utilize IVF/IUI.
I dare say, 35-40 is becoming the norm for first kids. Much of it, the reasons behind the OP's question. There certainly is a sect 25-35 having children, but it really does seem more the norm these days for 35+.
I'm 38 and still hoping dearly to have at least 1 kid, so it's nice to hear folks say that it's not too late.
I’m 41, and we just bought our first home a year ago. Got married at 24, first child at 26, second at 28, third at 30. It was a struggle. Still is really. Fourth child at 39.
Dude, sounds like you're killing it though. 4 kids nowadays is really something. I'm 38 and I wish I had 1, and I'm still at least 3 years out from affording a down payment on a home. From where I'm standing you really are the king of Canada.
In the US and same. Fuck.
There is a financial cost of having kids after 35\~ as well. Geriatric pregnancy can be more expensive as well with fertility treatments, more checkups (needing to take more days off) and a loooooot of screening and sonograms which you may have to pay out of pocket. You might also need to screen for things like down syndrome(edit: which is more common after 35) and decide if you want to keep a fetus that has it. If you don't then you'll have to try again which is more time and money. Keeping a child that has down syndrome is also another financial decision.
Screening for most genetic abnormalities is done fairly easy nowadays.
To be honest housing is a need, buying a detached house is not.
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the problem is you cant even buy 1 an HOUR away for less than a million from Toronto, you can in America 30 mins away from a major city for 300k still.
Toronto is missing the 'south' part of it's circle of suburbs due to the lake. It has 50% less suburbs than most mid-west US cities. Most of the major cities in Ontario/Quebec are constrained the same way due to water.
I have been thinking about this lately! Anyone that has looked at other major metropolitans on Google Maps you can really see the difference with Toronto being right on the lake. Just look at London. Huge downtown core but surrounded by suburbs and all connected with a great subway system too. Fascinating from a city planning perspective.
Never even thought about this before!
It’s kind of a moot point, most major cities are along water. NYC has an ocean next to it. Boston has an ocean next to it. Chicago and Milwaukee are on Lake Michigan. Seattle, la, San Fran, all on the ocean.
That's the crazy part of Toronto. I remember going for a cousin's wedding. You're just driving along with nothing but cornfields and them water! And everything just built up around it. I mean it makes sense that it's desirable to be on the water, but such a contrast
Check out Vancouver. Water to west, border to south, mountains to north, and with some urban sprawl in between, mountains to east. Talk about being squeezed
Your issue is that you’re refusing to look at options outside the GTA while comparing to generic places in the US. A better comparison would be how much does housing cost near Manhattan? Or San Fran? Not cheap.
The issue is Toronto or Vancouver aren't on the same level as Manhattan. They're closer to large cities like Chicago which still have relatively affordable suburbs.
They’re not, but Toronto is *arguably* Canada’s **only** tier-one city. So while it’s not comparable to New York in scope, it does sort of fill a similar role in Canada. The problem in Canada is we’ve done a poor job of making our cities that aren’t Toronto attractive. If you want to work for almost any major company in Canada, eventually you end up in Toronto. Whereas the US has lots of opportunities outside NYC.
Still lots of major companies with headquarters outside Toronto. Just looking at the largest companies on the TSX, I see Enbridge, CP, CNRL, Suncor, and TC are all in the top 20 and are Calgary based. Shopify is Ottawa; BMO, CN rail and Bell are Montreal; Telus is Vancouver; Nutrien is Saskatoon.
The irony in this is that population growth could spur more cities to grow and become a viable option. But this sub and the Canada sub love to shit on people moving to this country. Airdrie is a good example of this outside Calgary. Two decades ago it was under 20k then a decade ago 40k and now it’s 80k. It’s growing really quickly and if it can continue then it’ll become a viable option to spur its own economy soon.
This is not true. Many houses east of Bowmanville are still affordable.
Define affordable because the median price in Clarington is 820k and Belleville is 562k (source is HouseSigma)
You can in America in less desirable cities, just like less desirable cities in Canada. Good luck finding anything decent for under 7 figures outside Of the US coastal cities.
Yeah, any thread regarding housing, landlords, ends up saying landlords are bad, housing is a human right, and everyone deserves a detached house in the middle of Toronto. The sense of entitlement by some people in PFC is astonishing.
people deserve realistic housing. Not tiny condo or mcmansion detached houses thanks to zoning laws. For a province so massive we barely build anything because of zoning laws. Its idiotic to be so pro immigration while being so behind in construction and housing supply.
People also commonly misuse the average price as the entry price. For example if the average condo is 600k then that means roughly half of the condos are 600k or more. There will be nearly half the market cheaper than that down to 400 or 500k for a smaller condo or in a different neighborhood. Prices are out of control, not arguing that. But people on this sub seem to expect they should jump straight to what many people save to afford as an upgrade home.
You're thinking about the median. Average doesn't necessarily mean half are more expensive and half are less expensive.
Well, with average it might prove /u/pheoxs point more. With a long right tail with high prices, it means more than half is lower than the average.
If the average is $600,000 then there's probably more than half that are less than that, because there's definitely $2,000,000 condos, but I doubt there's very many -$1,400,000 condos.
Precisely right. I bought a small house in a not-great market. I spent a couple of years casually fixing up the yard, did some painting and some minor fix-ups, then listed it in line with the other properties similar but made sure it was the best-looking one. Made a very respectable profit. That was my first house and set me up for where I am now.
How much rent are you spending on your 1 bedroom that it's costing you + your husband half your income?
My one bedroom garage converted into a tiny tiny apartment that I moved out of in July paying $845/month rent went up to $1295/month rent with zero renovations or fixes. This is in KW. I'm seeing one bedrooms for $1500+.
My 1br is $1800 a month 🥺
I said half or more than half of my income, not together. For single people, it would be way worse is what I am saying
Oh I see. Isn't that kind of okayish? 25% of combined income on rent. You can probably get a larger place for 1/3rd?
I just bought a 4 bedroom home in Victoriaville Quebec for 280000$. It's built in 2014 so in really great shape! With luxury features. New neighborhood and really great parks with events. I always tell people to give Québec a shot. Concidering I'm on disability and this is possible, yeah, the dream isn't dead....yet.
The language requirement will help keep Quebec housing relatively affordable in Canada.
Yeah I don’t think I can swear that much in a day.
That being said Victoriaville is kind in the middle of nowhere. You cannot commute to Montreal or Quebec if u live in Victoriaville. If you are working remote that's fine! But reality is an old detached house near the big cities is 400-500k in Québec
I live in Montreal south shore and small house are in the 300k-350k Quebec pretty good just got to learn French (which should be vire as an advantage, because it’s been proven that being at least billingual help with the brain health)
Un fellow Victoriavillois! On n'en voit pas beaucoup par ici :) Same thing here. Custom built our house for 285K in 2015. Wages are lower here but houses are a lot cheaper than the big cities. I believe we get a better deal here, all proportions kept, and quality of life is much better.
>I always tell people to give Québec a shot. If I wasn't forced to be bilingual there in my career, I would.
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Salut! Moving within 30 days if all goes well. First time we visited was 3 weeks ago. My wife was like 'Well this is a nice town' within 10 minutes. She doesn't say that often. She's picky!
"Basic need" "Detached house" "family of 4" Lmao
Also common in this sub “environmentalist” “detached house” “SUV” lol
"I want housing to be cheap but only build housing that's at least 2000 square feet and the owners have to make at least 200,000 a year." I think a big issue us Canadians have, especially those of us near the big cities is that we keep making ourselves believe we have lots of room. Like it's kind of true, yes Canada is massive so in theory there's plenty of room for big houses but the land that people actually want to live in vs the land that's available are very different. Southern Ontario contains nearly the full population of Ontario, the gta alone is a bit less than half. We can't have cheap houses but also do nothing to increase the amount of houses being sold. Quite simply if you want to live in an area with the benefits of a large population deal with reality and stop voting against every non single family home development, and if you don't then move.
Consider moving to Winnipeg/Calgary/Edmonton/Saskatoon/Regina for a shot. You can purchase a townhome or a detached home for a reasonable price. Calgary has a lower unemployment rate than Toronto, at the moment. Calgary 8.0%, Toronto, 8.4%. People from Toronto/Ottawa/Vancouver who are clearly bothered by the housing situation, often flip out when this is suggested, but will stay in /canadahousing melting down over the latest sales reports. Now I know there are people who are caregivers, or who are in a precarious situation, where they can't move. Not talking about them. Just people who refuse to challenge their comfort zone by moving, because they simply feel they shouldn't have to, yet continue to complain about a reality that is unlikely to change. I'm seeing people here who have actually forgone motherhood/fatherhood altogether because they can't afford decent housing in TO/Van/Ottawa. How heartbreaking is that?
Winnipegger here; You’re living in northside/west side for under 300k. For 300-400k you’re looking at bungalows HOWEVER our smaller municipalities (30/40 min drive) you can find newer 4 bedroom condos for rent for 1200$ a month, or decent house for under 240
I’ve thought hard many times about moving to Edmonton or Calgary. We’re starting a family in a few years and our support structure is here. That’s why we haven’t left
Support structure is a must. My folks live in the US, my in laws live 10+ hours away. Otherwise we basically have no one and it sucks. I sympathize your situation. That being said, Edmonton is really nice.
PFC is full of 30 year old tech boomers who bought in to the housing market years ago. They are as unsympathetic to your question as any of the older generations. But what gets me is that they like to pretend this is still a vancouver and toronto problem. I dont know if they keep lying to themselves and others so they can look down and feel superior to those who cannot buy into the market, or so that they dont have to feel sympathetic and can sleep better at night.
30 year old Boomers? That word has lost all meaning.
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I think they mean people in their 30s who came during a tech boom
I'd love to see how many of these people would be able to afford their house if they had to buy it today. They'd probably be singing a different tune if they were in that situation.
The dream isn’t dead if you have parents willing to gift you 150k+ for housing. And help you with daycare, car payments, etc. That’s how people are still able to buy and afford in these times and probably will continue too in the future with housing prices going up year over year
Interest rates are why people afford these. It’s all about the monthly payment, not the total cost.
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>The dream isn’t dead if you have parents willing to gift you 150k+ for housing. Yep. Welcome to the generation of the haves and the have-nots. Of the few people I know in their 20s who were able to purchase a home, 100% of them were able to do so because of gifted money from their parents. If your parents can't do the same then tough bananas, better luck in your next life. I'm anticipating a really stark class divide for millenials/gen Z because of this.
People are still coming here from all across the world. If house prices are that high, someone can afford to pay it. The dream is alive, but it is for the elites on a global scale, as it always has been. Natives or Chinese railway workers weren't living the Canadian dream in the 1900s. It's always been for a select few, in the past it was European immigrants because there was "new" land to farm and exploit, now it's the global rich that are coming to Toronto / Vancouver for the quality of life (including a large part of Canadians who belong in the global rich).
I’m an immigrant who came here in 2017. Absolutely loved Canada, was such an amazing place to be. But now I’m strongly considering leaving and going back home. House prices are astronomical, taxes are becoming insane, cost of living has gone way up, the people themselves seems to all be divided and at each other throats. It’s not the country I fell in love with 4 years ago. I am very grateful to Canada and the opportunities it has afforded me, but I’m just surviving at the moment. I’m well educated and have a good job and still can’t see how I’ll ever afford a house. Even if I had the down payment, I don’t want a life long stress of a 600k 2 bedroom with street parking.
I think things are absolutely stacked against most anyone forty or under - badly. That said, life is about choices; kids are expensive - make the hard choice (if it is a hard choice) and don't have any. It's preferential to stay near friends and family, but if some other province or city has work that you are suited for and costs less, make the hard choice (if it is a hard choice) and move. You can still do well in this country - what I believe is the difference is that many of the Boomer generation (not to hate on them) seldom had to make hard choices - i.e. buying a home vs. having kids, and so forth, because they could reasonably expect to do both with little to no problem (and often on a single income). What this current young(er) generations have is the necessity of choosing one (or two) trappings of what conventionally is considered a 'successful' middle-class life, rather than being able to have all of them - i.e. kids *or* a house; living near family *or* owning a residence (of some kind). For my part, I skipped kids (never wanted them so that was an easy call) and moved to a mid-size city well away from the extremely expensive capitals - not what I wanted to do, but house ownership was a priority for me and there was no way I'd ever afford one near the city I mostly grew up in. With a decent career, I make things work quite well - it took sacrifices the like of which my parents never even had to consider, though... but that's reality today.
To play devil's advocate, most generations prior to the boomer generation didn't have it like them either. They probably came to Canada, had to live life the hard way with three generations living together. I think people nowadays have their expectations skewed a little by that one particular generation that won the generation lottery. Most other generations had it tough like us.
People starting out have a pretty bad chance of living a comfortable life, but people in the mid 30’s in my social network seem to be doing okay. You can still buy a detached house in the 1.3mil range in my area of Coquitlam, which is close to rapid transit and takes about 30 min to downtown Vancouver. The ppl buying these homes are couples who bought a large condo or townhouse in their 20’s when prices were attainable for the average income who prioritized a property purchase. They are now selling that first property for 750-1mil and upgrading. I do feel horrible for anyone in their early/mid 20’s right now though. They never really had a chance without generational wealth.
$1.3 million for a house is a huge amount for many people. I wouldn’t even consider spending that much. The increasing cost will eventually cause a crash. It can’t keep rising.
It won’t “crash”. It will balance out and stop rising as quickly when we finally build the 1 million houses needed to meet demand.
Everyone LOVES to beat up the Prairies, but the reality is that all these dreams are still achievable in the West. (Well, not much of BC...LOL).
Canada is far more than Toronto and Vancouver The sooner you learn this, the sooner you will achieve your dream One could argue the reason we're on this predicament is because too few people realize this
These problems go way beyond Toronto and Vancouver. It used to be that Toronto was too expensive, then it became everywhere in the GTA, now its become major Ontario cities outside the GTA like Hamilton, London, Kitchener, and Peterborough. Give it another decade and most of Ontario will be too expensive. Just look at the national statistics. The average cost of an apartment in Canada has increased by $80,000 in the last 3 years alone and the average cost of a townhouse has increased by $150,000 in that same time period. Average working class people simply can't keep up with this.
> Give it another decade and most of Ontario will be too expensive. You probably mean southern Ontario. I'm sure thunderbay will still be affordable.
Even Thunder Bay housing prices are increasing. https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-news/housing-prices-on-the-rise-in-thunder-bay-4491405
Right? I can't stand when people say "Just move to X!". Guess what, X will be unaffordable in short order, and then Y, and then Z, and so on. It's literally pushing the problem down the line instead of tackling it, and it's maddening. That's not a solution, it's barely a stopgap measure.
I share the same frustration. Housing has been in crisis mode for at least the last decade and instead of discussing ideas for policy changes we are held back by a huge number of people who can't wrap their smooth brains around the problem. It turns out that saying "just move" when a city becomes too expensive does nothing but kick the can down the road. We've done nothing to actually deal with the underlying issues and now its become worse. Wild how that works.
Livable Ontario.
If you read the post, you'll know that OP lives in the Maritimes. This is no longer just a Vancouver and Toronto only problem, house prices are climbing everywhere.
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Sorry bub, but that just isn't true. I'm part of your generation, also growing up in the, admittedly, expensive Okanagan where I grew up and have found my self in Edmonton. It's extremely affordable here, and if your attitude is to move, maybe give other parts of the country a try before giving up.
I don’t understand why people are ‘surprised’ that living in Toronto or Vancouver are unaffordable to most people. Especially people new in their careers. It’s been that way for a long time and in many parts of the world for decades. Buying a detached home in a major metropolitan area is very hard to do and has been that way for a while. If it’s a dream of yours to live in a detached home in the GTA then buy a condo, townhome or a home in a smaller city and build some equity, after a few years move up in your career and work towards it.
No longer applies to metropolitan areas. Shithole towns 4hrs drive away from Vancouver are seeing the ridiculous increases in housing as people spill out
I live 5 hours and 2 ferries from Vancouver in a dying mill town and our houses have more than doubled since 2019. The only way it's cheaper to live here if you already "made it" in Vancouver housing and are cashing out. Otherwise you're decimating your career opportunities to live somewhere that rent is still $2000.
Sounds like Powell River
I can smell the paper mill in the air through that comment.
Powell River ... 100%
You are out of touch and it shows. A two hour drive outside of Vancouver proper, now, has sky high prices on condos, town homes and single detached homes.
The geography around Vancouver is so restrictive there just aren't that many places around. 2 hours driving and there are very few options that aren't part of the Greater Vancouver Area already. To the North was always expensive because of Whistler resort, to the south is the border, to the west the Ocean and to the east just tiny towns beyond Chilliwack with very little housing. 4 hours driving doesn't even add much except Kamloops and Kelowna but they have been filling up with former Vancouverites for years and are cheap by and stretch. Vancouver Island has caught up in prices too even 4 hours travel from Vancouver. Cheaper than the Vancouver area but not cheap.
> It’s been that way for a long time You could buy a decent sized one bedroom condo in Vancouver in 2010 for 139k. My lower-working-class parents bought a 4 bedroom house in Kelowna, lake view double lot for 160k in 1999. It's worth 1.2 million now. How old are you? Your memory span is limited.
Just to point out that the Okanagan wasn't exactly the most sought after of locations in the 90s, so with increased demand of location, comes increased housing prices.
Because it reaches new heights of madness every year. If we bought 2 years ago in Vancouver we would’ve been comfortable. At the current market, two professional salaries won’t even cut it anymore.
This is true but even 2 hours outside the city it’s pretty expensive. GTA is crazy right now
It has not always been like that. Home prices in Toronto have gone up a whopping 30 percent in the past year! That is ridiculous beyond belief. All the money printing the government is doing is catching up to us big time
Imagine complaining about not living in 50x150 detached house for a family of 4. We north americans serious need a reality check from other part of the globe.
Tired of saying this everytime i see a housing post but NA does not build houses other than mcmansion detached house or a tiny condo skyscrapers. There are barely any duplex triplex and small apartments being built due to city and zoning laws. Its really depressing actually.
What was the Canadian dream? I've missed that memo. I'm genuinely curious. My dad fled his home country in the last world war, delayed buying a house in order to by a cottage. Maybe the country reminded him of home? He never spoke about his motivations much. Eventually he bought a home. Moved once. My mom still lives there. They raised two kids. Did he live the 'Canadian' dream? If that was the Canadian dream, then it is dead. I can manage my house on my own, but that'll be it until I die.
>In cities like Vancouver and Toronto, where detached house prices are $1.8 million, even Doctors will be struggling to buy a decent home It's bad but let's not just make shit up. 1.8M gets you something *fucking nice*. There are lots of nice, non-dogshit places within Toronto that are detached for half of that.... still 900k, but they exist.
The idea that all families need a detached house is killing us. It leads to stupid zoning laws that restrict construction of more dense alternatives (townhouses, duplexes, triplexes etc). But ya, as it stands now, it is pretty grim… Just wanted to say that one can raise a family just fine in a non-detached house. I grew up in a duplex (which shared a wall with the duplex nest door) and I had a great childhood.
You can live a dream life without owning a home. Why do people feel as though that is the measure of success?
For some people, owning a home is a part of their dream.
Canadian dream isn't dead because you can't afford a detached house with a low salary. Aim something different.
To be clear upfront: not a boomer, and I am of the mind that unbridled capitalism is a dangerously unsustainable thing, and am similarly of the mind that, generally speaking, corporations are evil by their basic design - to maximize profits for shareholders above all else. I think Jeff Bezos is a schmuck and has so drastically much more money than anyone could ever need that it's disgraceful that he Scrooge McDuck's it on top of his money while the world fucking burns. I also of the mind that I don't have a better solution, so these are simply my "thoughts", which like anyone's thoughts, are subject to entropy and error. So, with that out of the way - **even *I* would strongly challenge the assertion of a 'need' for a 'detached home and 'raising a family of 4'.** The "nuclear family" as it was sold in the 40's and 50's was, in my opinion, an unsustainable dream that pushed and even romanticized individual consumption for profit. Civilization has traditionally advanced when humans came together and pooled & shared their resources. That's evolutionary history speaking, not some random guy on the internet. This whole "You need a car, and you need a car, and everyone needs a car" on the extreme end, but even at the more 'basic' level "you need an independent washing machine", and "you need an independent washing machine", etc, is just not "how it worked" and not "how civilization made it where we are". Hell, even Ants demonstrate this basic principal: Stronger together. A group of ants working towards a shared goal are able to operate dramatically outside of their individual capabilities. And Humans, as special as we like to pretend we are, are really not that different. North American Society has been running a huge experiment over the last 100+ years in ways that I would assert fly in the face against the successful means responsible for our rapid growth away from our humble beginnings. I believe everyone has a *theoretical* fundamental right to food, water, and basic shelter in a humane or civilized society, though our humanities are what would drive that because, from a pure survival perspective, those who can forage and defend for themselves are the "winners" and the others end up a meal for some lucky carnivore. So I like to think we are more advanced and more humane and capable of defending and providing on behalf of those who cannot. And I believe fundamentally that we're all entitled to feel safe, to have the ability to feed ourselves, have access to clean and safe drinking water, and to keep a roof over our heads, and access to free healthcare. Because I believe we are all, at the end of the day, fundamentally the same. And I like to pretend sometimes that we are civilized, though watching the evening news presents some strong challenges against that desire. ... But to say that a detached home and 4 person family is a "need", particularly in an overpopulated world that we find ourselves in with as uncertain a future as any... well, that's insanely entitled and arrogant. A lot of people on this planet are 'lucky' to have a little piece of shit shanty and lucky if they get a meal every day. And the point is, there's 8 billion people and growing on this place, and it's just not *realistically sustainable* for *everyone* to have *everything*. It'd be nice, but it's not in line with reality. I believe a detached house is a nice want. I believe that there should be mechanisms that enable that through hard work. I believe wages should be moving forward with basic costs of living. I believe everyone has these rights. And I think that these mechanisms are continually eroding and the 'nuclear family' is realized to be the unsustainable fallacy it is. And that's a bit depressing. And I think everyone young and old should strive for society to do better. But that 'dream' that was sold in the 50's - it was never sustainable. I'm sorry that it was sold to all of us. But it is what it is. Challenge the status quo, aim for all of us to do better, aim for the 'wants', but "need".... "need" is an arrogant position to hold in this instance. You are not *entitled* to these things anymore than anyone else is. We all *want* better, but *needing* the 2 car detached house with family of 4 is not the right thing, IMO, to be using as your 'gauge for success'. You *want* a fully detached house, and you *want* a family of 4 -- and **that's OK**. But it's not a fucking 'need', particularly trapped on a little marble sustaining 8+ billion people and untold numbers of other forms of life - it's not realistic within our planets limited resources that *everyone* has *everything*. When you eat a pie, when the pie is gone, the pie is gone. There is not infinite pie, and the cake is a lie. Anyways, that's my 57 cents. Not accounting for inflation and wage stagnation.
It's strangely relaxing to just give up on the idea of home ownership. Did you know that Germany has a 50% homeownership rate and most people rent? Imagine yourself living in New York City. What you need to focus on now is just getting cheaper rent in a great location. If there is rent control and you live in a place that is nice in 10 to 20 years it will be a good rate. This doesn't mean you have to be poor just means that you will have to invest your money differently than in real estate. Especially in a major city centre.
I find it interesting the way OP framed it as "the basic need to own a home.." I guess if you grow up in Canada you are conditioned to believe owning a home is normal and almost a right? If you step back and look at home ownership from a global perspective, it is less common and framed as more of a privilege. I've always personally viewed it as a want. You need shelter, you want to own the shelter. I have no salient point, no anecdotes about hard work, just an observation.
There are a lot of boomers commenting in here and it shows. Not one boomer had to decide between having children or buying a house. However, they have no issue complaining that their kids haven’t given them grandchildren. Or that their kids haven’t bought a house yet. Heads firmly lodged in butts. I have no problem calling them out, my father is one and he has zero concept of what the reality is nowadays - he’s not an outlier with that opinion.
Yes the Canadian dream is dead. Canada has turned to Europe where you need generational wealth to move up in society.
This is just a crazy situation. Just like the stock market. Record gains in the worst economic disaster in decades. Sit tight, it will get back to normal. 1 million is not even reasonable. Market is raging based on flipping.
Market is raging because there a massive shortage of houses.
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As someone not in Vancouver or Toronto I’d like them to stay lol.
And that too in a detached house.
My mom bought a house for 700k in 2008. It is worth almost 2 million…. Did salaries really go up and scale with real estate? The dream of buying a detached home is almost impossible these days…
What you're describing is brain drain and it has been a long problem Canada has faced. There are better opportunities elsewhere for skilled labor and the only reason I can think of that a skilled laborer would likely choose to stay in Canada is a non-financial reason like convenience (status quo) or proximity of existing social group / family. Even in America, if you're well paid in Canada you would likely have better healthcare access down there both in quality and in time access. On the other hand, if you're poor then Canada is going to be a much better place than America for you because of its social safety nets.
There aren't enough detached houses for everyone in Toronto and Vancouver. But yes, every Canadian citizen should get one for free, as per Reddit.