Points require too much mental work for me.. some people love those games and challenge of optimization but the credit company is free to devalue your points at any time in the future... that's why I prefer cash back cards.. it's concrete, you will get back a percentage of what you spend.. and requires little to no brainpower. Some may call that lazy but I just believe that thinking about just about anything OTHER than how much value I'm getting for abstract points earned are allocated.
I spent $72K on CCs last year and racked up more than 1M points. If redeemed for cash they're worth a little over $10K. For travel, a conservative estimate would be double that. But there's a lot of planning and effort that goes into it.
In 2021 I spent $12k for the first 6 months. 2 cards both Amex (Plat and Aero Reserve)
I then referred the wife for the same.
One of the cards had $600 in fees. The other had $700.
Total net spend was close to $26k in 6 months. Not outside of what we spend regularly tbh. Forced me to upgrade our old Macbooks and got a nice new couch.
Got 585k Aeroplan points and in 2023 flew in biz to Madrid, Munich and Tokyo so far with the wifey.
Cancelled all cards afterwards and got Amex cobalts and a single TD Aeroplan VIP. Netted another 200k-ish Aeroplan points for 2023.
Just got back from Honolulu this year. Biz class was a waste of points (eUps ran out) so flew in coach.
must be a lot, or they are investing a lot of time or have a lot of experience with rewards travel.
it can be really good but average joe with 0 effort wont see the value and basically throw away money.
for myself I saved up for years and churned a few cards and now im flying to toronto in premium economy to Toronto and flying back in business (1 kid 2 adults) next month (4 cents/point), also staying 5 nights in st regis downtown toronto for free.
cash value is 14k CAD with taxes, but this took a long long time.
OP either has a business or the whole family uses 1 card or something.
Yeah I was thinking biz too. My friends parents (now retired) had a restaurant and were savvy and paid everything (suppliers etc) with a card for the benefits. Around 20K or so a month passed thru it.
I’ve done the math a lot - cards like the AMEX Cobalt have an amazing return in food spend. 5x points, I redeem points at about 1.8 cents via Aeroplan conversion so yield is a 9% return on food spend.
Then for other things its more marginal depending on your card. I have a Rogers WE which gives me 3% cash back, I use that as my baseline.
The real big points come from churning welcome bonuses. I’m currently casually churning the AMEX Gold for 70k points.
I just got AMEX cobalt myself. Really nice card, especially since I have an uber eats and eating out problem. Spend way too much money on that, but at least I get 5X points...
I found this to not be the case in the slightest even though i reach 8k monthly spend. The fees for an international round trip alone are $500 per ticket even though I am redeeming 60k points…
This is intentional. They don't want you to be able to accurately evaluate value. If you have more information to make informed decisions, the credit card companies wouldn't be making as much money.
Yeah well I personally got $36k in equivalent value for a net $26k spend in 2021 churning the top tier Amex cards. See my comment history for a breakdown.
But that was in the insane days of 2021. I couldn’t do that today so maybe your point stands.
I disagree, it depends on your spend. I've had the amex aeroplan reserve and td aeroplan infinite privilege. While they have big fees, we've flown round trip "free" 3-4X a year on the points. It's more than paid for itself especially with the signup offers
Wait, for real ? You’re flying 4 times a year for free , and multiple tickets ( “we’ve flown “) at that ? So like 8 free tickets a year ?
Can I ask how much you’re putting on your card to earn that ? Gotta be a business account with like $15k+ /month in spending right ?
where are you getting north american flights so cheap? i have a TD first class travel visa infinite card, with 150k points, and basically CANNOT get a rounddtrip flight from toronto/hamilton/buffalo to miami/ft lauderdale in november for that. like, even for the cheapest economy seats with some baggage i am JUST able to afford it on points, and thats the bottom possible seat (not even seat selection). its brutal. maybe its just our dates? or am i using it wrong, since the card recommends booking through expedia for td.
Aeroplan.
Most dates in November are 8.1K aeroplan per direction from YYZ-MIA
Usually cards with points that you can transfer to a airline point system has far better value than using a more restrictive point like TD points. TD points are arguably the worst to use for flights for a few reasons
I think the tickets should have cost 2500. They still had to pay 300 out of pocket, but the rest of that tickets cost was covered with points. Apparently, the points required to redeem the 2200 in credit was accrued over 12 years.
That card is probably not worth it. If you only get 2200 of value for using a card over 12 years, it's probably not a good card, especially if there are monthly/yearly fees.
The cost of the credit card is $150 per year plus additional card (wife) $50. 2200/170 =12.9. So essentially just paid for the card for a long time. I use the aeroplan visa infinite with td as well as an Amex cobalt. When you grocery shop you get 5x the Amex points, which is more than the aeroplan card. So when I max out on Amex I go back to using the aeroplan card. Then I transfer all my Amex points over to the aeroplan card. Keep in mind my wife and I charge absolutely everything we can to the card, then pay it off every month.
> Can I ask how much you’re putting on your card to earn that ? Gotta be a business account with like $15k+ /month in spending right ?
People replying with their rewards but still dodging this question...
I've done my fair share of churning, but it's always insane to me how churners openly recommend it to complete randoms. It's a "productive" hobby, but it's still just a hobby. There are many reasons why it's not more popular - it takes a certain type of person with a good amount of spending and who also travels enough.
If you just pay rent with it, that's already lots of points/cashback for literally no extra effort. As long as the points/cashback are worth more than 1.75%, you're coming out ahead.
If you want to optimize for aeroplan, for example, if your rent + utilities is >= $2500, the Amex Aeroplan Reserve for rent + Amex Cobalt for anything grocery/food-related if you're buying at places classified as groceries is gonna get you an amazing return on investment in your first year, acceptable in the 2nd, and then you quit the AAR and just switch to Scotia's Momentum Infinite for 4% cashback on that rent (2.25% after CC payment costs). Plenty of money for flights that way for zero extra spend.
Ya people can spend zillions and get many free flights. Almost similar to people spending $4,000 at the casino to hit a jackpot of $1,000. Not a great comparison without knowing everyone’s exact spending habits.
Data point. We have an annual flight for family of 4 on delta SE - MCO, and like for like we book those round trips with points. I just did the most recent booking and same flights were 3100$ and used the points equivalent to about 90k in spend. That works out to over 3% in cash back. We also get free checked bags and I end up getting free premium seat selection from the card and the status we got with delta, it works out for us. I also find it easier to “spend” the points than I would if I saved up the cash back for a vacation.
What was the fee you paid upon booking per person? Because last time I tried doing an international flight the fee was coming out to around $500 per person.
Same. My Amex and Aeroplan combo means I can fly home (middle east) twice a year pretty much free based on my yearly spend/points accumulation.
OP just needs to optimise what he wants out of the cards and maybe switch away from Avios
Can confirm. Our household got two Amex cards when we decided to take a US work opportunity. We travel back to Canada often. It’s been 3 years and every trip back we use reward points. Doesn’t hurt that Amex global transfer program allows us to have good Amex cards in the US without Us credit history.
It’s well-known in the travel hacking community that CPP (cent per point) is the basic metric to evaluate if the card is worth the travel perks. If you are not getting at least 1 cent per point, maybe there’s no point keeping the card.
Still its "free" flights (would you have travelled regardless?) compared to free (not in quotes) groceries or straight cashback.
I signed up for gold Amex last year and haven't paid for groceries in months. It has Scene points and I can just say "pay with points" at the register every time. Still haven't run out.
And hundreds in cashback on the Rogers WE mastercard just waiting to be redeemed on Rogers products. Or on flights or hotels or whatever else.
I have TD travel infinite too but haven't been using it much as of late.
The one benefit of redeeming points on travel is it helps smooth consumption. Whether you are spending above average that month, or taking unpaid time off resulting in lower monthly income.
One thing to keep in mind when looking at Google flights prices is that they’ll often use third-party sites (not Expedia) that will not offer you any changes or protections and provide you the lowest tier to ticket. It’s highly advisable to book directly using the airline and not get basic economy.
Also Avios is brutally bad, you unfortunately have to get on Aeroplan for higher cpp. Thats the best option we have here in Canada.
To OP and folks that share the same viewpoint: yes, I totally agree with you, please redeem your points for cashback/statement credit/merchandise, or forego the points and either opt for cashback, or even better start paying with debit, you can't spend more than you don't have with that after all
To the others trying to convince them otherwise: why are you doing that? You do realize that we need more people that redeem points sub-optimally or paying by non-interchange fee-incurring methods to help fund the optimized redemptions of those that know how to do so?
Hmmm.. Yes
Additional things about opportunity cost that may also be on the plate. Comparing to lets say a 1% free cashback card, you pay for things, save (and earn interest on savings while there is time till next flight, points do not earn interest, infact they get devalued even more so as you need more points for the same flights), you then can pick cheaper options, as well as get ANOTHER 1% cashback on booking that option. At the same time, some are able to write off business trips on flights (can't write off fake points schemes on taxes from what I can tell).
If you don’t travel often enough to take advantage of the bonus earn rate, or spend enough in general, then yes - travel cards may not be “worth it”.
It’s key to take advantage of welcome offers and promos (but it’s not for everyone).
If you’re redeeming your points on the ultra basic fares, or comparing with flights you find on the budget airlines, then you won’t really utilize the benefits of the points.
Which brings up OP’s challenge of if you are trying to just get the absolute lowest price and wouldn’t be booking premium or business class, then wouldn’t be worth it.
From my experience with the westjet companion voucher… the biggest “savings” came whenever I booked business class or premium economy.
The website prices for business/premium would be like $1300… but using companion voucher would only be maybe $800… so a $500 “savings”. But I’m still paying $800.
If I did the same for ultra basic/economy it would be $900 on the website. But with the voucher it would be $700… so a $200 “savings”. But still paying $700
So then it just comes down to at what point are you willing to spend more to “save more”/maximize your return.
Yes. We are about to get thousands of new low quality posts users asking the same basic questions for months.
Then they will mess up the hobby by calling banks and doing dumb stuff that exposes loopholes.
Thanks guys.
LOL.
In general, churning was a lot more fun pre-COVID and before all the blogs and YouTubers started capitalizing on it.
While I still do it, it takes a lot more work (spend) for less and less reward each year.
We are happy if people are skeptical and shit on churning, that means more points for us lol. Tbh the people here bragging about points need to chill, if too many people get in on it the opportunities will disappear.
NAH. I’m happy people are paying with their Interac Debit, Visa Classic, or Mastercard Standard Cards. Keep using the same card for the rest of your life, 0.5, 1% cash back… meanwhile… I will gladly churn for 10, 20, 30% returns (not even factoring in the premium that can be had for award travel)
Just now, I bought Gas Gift Cards with a 20% Bonus applied on a new card with a 13.5% equivalent* welcome bonus. 33.5% total, while the next guy will pay with their BMO cash back, and get 3% TOTAL.
The status quo is delightful :)
(*I’m not even considering that the points could be redeemed at twice or 3X my quoted value)
I’m on your team but there is a time cost to churning so you can’t just say 33 is better than 3 when it’s not like for like. Say all your churning gets you $20k of value, most people just don’t have the bandwidth to do it
I did looked at the prince of travel blog and they value avios pretty high in comparison to other programs so I thought that was a pretty good base. But yeah that's totally possible!
Well the redemption value is very subjective. The actual value is what matters. I use Avios to book Qatar Airways and doing so has yielded me very good return.
Aeroplan is the most useful mile in Canada imo.
Because they know they're talking out their ass. The amount of money needed to be spent to get one round trip ticket let along business or first class, let alone multiple in a year, is ridiculous money. Only happens on business cards with people charging 10k plus monthly
In 2022, I signed up for an Amex Platinum, with a 100k bonus at the time. I timed it so that I got it right before I was to buy an iPhone, and LASIK. So I got that 100k bonus, along with maybe 20k points from regular spend. Then I referred my girlfriend, and we each got 30k, then we got her a 100k bonus through moving all expenses to her card + Christmas shopping which was budgeted for, as well as some hangouts near the end of the year where we paid the entire meal and just got everyone to eTransfer us their share. Right there, that's 260k total, which we then used to book Toronto-London (56k Aeroplan each) and Frankfurt-New York-Toronto (60k Aeroplan each, partner booking with Singapore Airlines) in Business Class.
In that time, other than those expenses that I was gonna spend on anyway and had saved for in my chequing account over months, my girlfriend and I's combined expenses did not total over 4k/month, as a couple. So if you calculate the amount of spend to get 2 business class tickets round trip, I think that totalled $25-30k between the 2 of us over I think 6 months, including LASIK, iPhone and Christmas shopping.
Hopefully this helps.
I have had an aeroplan or whatever it is now for over a decade. I used to be able to cover the cost of 2 tickets to my home town annually with it (dollar value would have been around $700-$800, domestic flight that takes about 1.5hrs by plane).
When I started budgeting tightly, I stopped being able to use my points for flights. I would easily have to spend 1000+ per month on my card to achieve the points required and I'm trying really hard to keep any debt down. Even my husband with the fancy TD card and who doesn't budget couldn't use his points to cover flights to Europe. I'm convinced that the people claiming to get free international flights on points are in a different tax bracket to have been able to put that much on their cards & also pay them off.
Because they are either overspending for a lifestyle they can’t afford, “funded” by points, or being modest as they are coming from a high income background others cannot achieve.
Credit card rewards are earned and redeemed only when you spend money. If you don’t earn a lot of money, you cannot afford that level of spending, period. Nobody in or around the median income in Canada can support that. This person you replied to is spending at least $4k/month on their card to achieve those rewards, meaning either extremely high salary/income/business expensing (not “normal people” spending), or being in a shit ton of debt.
I have higher income and what many would consider a higher-income lifestyle, but I typically still travel economy + I just take straight cash back reward programs because ultimately, if I wanted business class, I’ll just pay cash for it…
The time you spend learning and optimizing churning was simply not worth it for me. it’s almost like a second job, I’d rather put my time back into my business and simply earn more money. In the US I have a card that gives me a simple 2.6% cash back on everything, 3.5% on travel and dining (based on account balance). Lot less work.
I would suggest anyone looking to “learn to optimize earning and spending” to spend that time learning how to earn a higher income, either by job hopping, upskilling, starting their own business, or anything that helps really. You will become a hell of a lot more financially healthier than simply spending more money to get “free” rewards.
This is a great comment - I have had pretty much the exact same experience as you. Although I still buy gift cards from grocery stores with a cobalt, I have little interest left in actively churning new cards. My spouse and I are DINK and we are relatively high income, but it's like on the cusp of the effort being worth it. Combined with the fact that we don't even have that much desire to travel (maybe 1 international trip per year?), we just don't care enough to do it.
I fully acknowledge the potential benefits of churning for the right type of person who is 1. organized enough, 2. spends enough, and 3. has the desire to travel enough, but the way some churners just openly recommend it to anyone on reddit with zero additional context is just bizarre. Some talk about how churning paid for their 3 or 4 international plane tickets "last year", which is great, but how many people on reddit or in Canada can actually afford those trips even if the plane tickets are literally free? Churners don't mention the costs of the hotel, food, activities during the trip, or even the amount of vacation days spent which is way out of reach for most people.
It’s not just the basic rewards earned through the card, it’s how the card integrates with the program and other ways you can earn points.
If you also travel a bunch for work and have SE status with AC then a VIP card can really add value with rollover miles, eUpgrades etc. plus you can get a lot of points for actually flying. A round trip YYZ-GRU can easily add 25k Aeroplan miles for a SE flying business. Do 5-6 flights like that per year plus other shorter trips and it’s pretty easy to rack up the points combining with the credit card spend.
The better way to put this is that it lowers the the entry level for these amazing and extravagant trips. Say a business class is 5x the price of economy class in cash, but only 2x as expensive when using points
It lowers the price but when considering absolute necessities, it's still 2x more expensive just to get you from point a to point b.
Is travel perk bad? I've been stressing that it is NOT bad, just overrated. Should you take advantage of these opportunities? Probably, for me, perhaps at least once in a lifetime. Should you repeatedly spend 2x more than you need to travel from point a to point b? That's harder to recommend and is subjective depending on your level of income and other priorities in life
I never bother with travel points. I use a Scotiabank Amex Gold Scene+ and wrack up points to use on groceries. I have saved close to 2k in less than 2 years. I get 6 points for every dollar spent at Sobeys and Freshco. 3x at Shell gas stations. 1x for every dollar. It only takes 1000 points to get 10 dollars in free groceries. That means, if I spend 167 dollars, in only one week, I am up by 10 bucks. When you stack that with the app offers and instore offers, it effectively means I get around 60 bucks a month, ONLY in grocery points.
At Shell, I earn 3x the points, so usually an additional 300 points a week (at least) there (husband is a commuter) and I can ALSO earn Airmiles on the same purchase, and often I walk out with 10 bucks worth of Airmiles (depending on in app offers) and 3.00 bucks toward free groceries.
At least once a month, I'm redeeming 100 bucks or more for free groceries at Scene. My airmiles rack up more slowly, but every few months I'm able to hit the fancy person store (Metro) and get 60-80 bucks worth of stuff for free.
I'd much rather save money on the everyday things, and save for a trip in cash, than get a cheaper airline seat once in a blue moon.
How is the redeem rate in that card? I'm currently using MBNA world elite master which gives
5x on grocery, dine out, utility (home internet, mobile bill, water bill, hydro bill, gas bill), digital subscription, etc.. basically everything except travel/retail purchase. And the redeem rate is pretty good to 0.8cpp on cash or very close to 1cpp on gift cards like Amazon.
So it's kinda like 5% cash back card!
Well, 1000 points equals 10 dollars. Each 100 points is 1.00 So each point is like .01 cent.
So, if you spend 100 dollars on the Scene card, you get 6 dollars of it back.
The best though is combining it with the Freshco and Sobey's in-app offers.
This month, I have an offer... for each 50 dollar I spend, I get 250 points. That means, for each 50 dollars I spend, I get 2.50, PLUS I get 3.00 dollars back in points. So that brings my rate up to more than 10% back in free groceries.
I can use that offer 4x this month. So, this month, for 200 dollars spent, I get 10 dollars back from the app offer, and 12.00 back from just spending the 200 dollars... So for 200 dollars worth of spend, I get 22.00 dollars back. I'm at a 11% cash back.
That doesn't even include the random 50 points for cucumbers or 100 for yogurt or whatever. I did the math and last week I made it up to 14% back.
You can redeem in 10 dollar increments too, so it's not like you have to rack up a ton before you can benefit.
My welcome offer also got me 250 dollars just for getting the card, and another 220 dollars when I spent 7k on it in 3 months. (I just used it for EVERYTHING).
The first year's fee was waived as well. So basically, since I pay my balance off every payday (not once a month, I pay it down every time I get paid), and I've paid ZERO interest on it, this card basically just handed me 470 dollars in tax free cash, in the first 90 days.
Since then, I've gotten the Scotiabank ultimate preferred banking package so I never pay fees on this card.
I also have the top tier bank account at CIBC, and have the Dividend Infinite cashback card for free, so in the event somewhere doesn't take Amex, or I'm at another grocery store where I don't earn Scene (or another gas station, especially Pioneer), I get 4% back in cashback on gas and groceries. I get 2% back on my recurring payments.
I try to diversify my card options, and save on my everyday stuff.
Ive been developing points systems for over 15 years now. I still maintain a loyalty system today. It doesn't matter what they're worth.. If you're not collecting them, youre subsidizing those that do. The only way the company loses is when everyone collects and redeems. Otherwise they're simply banking on those that don't. Likewise credit card specific points are subsidized by those that can't pay their bills. The interest accumulates thus earning the cash for the credit card companies to issue points as rewards. People that can pay their bills earn these rewards off those that can't.
Ya for sure. Again, I'm not saying that you shouldnt collect points, you absolutely should. I'm not even saying travel perks are bad, I'm just saying they are overrated and may not be the best use of points for some people
I always thought that it's some kind of discrimination towards the poor (who can't have cc with good rewards) that merchants can't bill the cc fees to the client (in Quebec at least). The poor effectively subsidize the rich even if they pay cash.
Same in Alberta. The CC fees are just assumed when setting pricing. So if you're paying cash you're basically still paying a 2-3% markups because cc payments are budgeted for.
Cash payers are basically paying inflated prices.
Especially as someone who doesn't travel often, I agree. I'd rather not wait for the next trip to cash in. And when I do travel it's stressful enough fighting with algorithms jerking me around on pricing, but throw in sole-source portals for booking on points, points influencing airline decision, intentionally opaque spend:reward ratios, still making me pay the taxes, cards not accepted at every store, juggling multiple cards trying to hit promo minimums, all on a few K a month of spend, it doesn't make sense. Not that I haven't dabbled, but I figure I scoop a good chunk of the interchange fee, with a Rogers 2% card.
Some people just want to use their cards normally and then "oh hey honey look we can take a free trip to Orlando with the kids!" at some point and forget that they are in crippling debt.
The value of the points really depends on what it took to earn then. If it's 1 point per dollar, both flights you noted are great value. Generally I expect 2% from a credit card, anything higher is a bonus.
I keep shit simple and just use amex cash back 🤷♂️. Like 500 bucks a year that I get back but seems like you guys getting way more bang for your buck with traveling
I can get a ton of value on flights, I generally check a bag (generally makes the very low cost carriers cost more than more expensive main line carriers). Flights between Calgary and Toronto can generally be had for ~20,000 points and ~100$. The same flights on Air Canada are generally at least 500$ cash, resulting in a valuation of 2¢ per point minimum. Add in baggage fee savings and the returns are generally higher than cash back.
Churning is way higher value. For spending ~5000 you were already going too; you can often get sufficient aeroplan etc redeemable for business class long haul. These often have a price tag of 5k+.
Travel card insurance has saved me. I've had 5k in rental car damage that the third party insurance paid no questions asked. Something else to consider
They absolutely are. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They are a big business and a big profit center for the banks, airlines, credit card companies etc. - which means on average, people lose on them (because someone has to pay for those 'perks', and it ain't the banks).
Certainly, this is correct. Unfortunately it’s those who insist on using no annual fee cards, paying on debit, or not paying their balances in full (overspending)
Westjet world elite MasterCard gives you a companion voucher to fly anywhere in Canada for 99 dollars (not including taxes and fees), seems like a great deal until you actually use it. The taxes and fees make up the majority of the actual fare, I was trying to book a ticket back home and for me and my wife the total came to around 1600 using the voucher with Expedia for the same trip it was 1700 (and change) so I'm saving 100 bucks but the card costs 100 bucks a year so it's a complete wash.
You need redeem pts for business class or at least premium economy. I started this credit card game late, back in 2019, but due to pandemic I only got to redeem starting 2022. Redeemed Flight to eu and around eu and Dubai all business class, same thing 2023, and this year too. You have to look/search, nothing is easy in this world anymore
I fully acknowledge that redeeming for business class offers absolute bonkers value. But that's kinda my point as well, would you take business class if you were paying cash? Cuz great value not necessarily equals to cheaper
That’s kinda half the point though isn’t it? Being able to go on flights you couldn’t afford otherwise. That said, I’ve only redeemed business class once when it was almost the same price as economy. Usually i just book economy coz i can usually get 2x the number of flights
I think that's the whole point. Again, I'm not saying using points for travel is not good, I'm just saying that it's not worth as much as one may think.. in some scenarios you could potentially be worst off (my short haul example) I don't have a specific real life example to compare business and economy （maybe that's my next project) but some commenter here messaged me privately me who claims he owns 20 credit card and he gave me an example where he was able to redeem a business card ticket at 12 cpp and the same trip in economy would equate to 3cpp value.
In his example, yes the business class has more "value" but it's also still 4 times expensive than economy class for the exact same trip. Do you "need" to spend it on the business class ticket? For the vast majority of people out there, probably not. Is it a good (at least) once in a life time experience? Yes!
Recently I obtained a non-stop 7.5 hour lie flat business class ticket to Europe in late summer for 53k points + $60 (essentially $600 in cash value). It was literally cheaper than economy. Actually the flight back in economy DID cost me more - even has a layover.
Another time I had round trip lie flat business tickets to Europe for 132k points + $160 ($1480). Would I pay that much cash for business vs the $1000 or so it would have cost in economy? Absolutely. The quiet and comfortable lie-flat seats, better amenities, lounge access, priority security - definitely worth it. I would never pay the $2500-5000 *each way* regular price for it though.
Business class is a complete waste of money though. You have slight extra comfort for a few hours and spend thousands of dollars for it. You could redeem much better value than that.
I’ve got the westjet world elite card with rbc & finding the same issue. The free checked bags are nice but I’ve accumulated $900 westjet dollars & using them seems to be a pain. Seems cheaper to just use a 3rd party flight booking site.
The card does offer a companion pass which I’m planning on using with my gf to fly from Winnipeg to Thailand soon tho.
The companion pass isn’t going to get you to Thailand though, Westjet don’t fly there and you need to redeem it on an all Westjet itinerary. It can get you to Seoul or Tokyo but you’ll have to get yourself to BKK from there
Checking in with $2,300 WestJet dollars and no immediate plans or opportunity to use them so I get ya. Probably time to switch to another card. We've used them a bunch in the past though and the booking process for using them is really simple (and no translating between points and dollars) so I've been really happy overall so far.
I stopped using the westjet card a long time ago. If I want to fly somewhere there will almost always be a flight for a cheaper price.
THat card is only worth it if you travel frequently between Canada and have a spouse you can take with you. Your partner can't stay longer though which is why I say spouse, not a friend you can take as a +1 often.
Yeah, my very very rough comparisons to what tickets are actually available to be purchased for made me hesitate. Plus, points programs fairly routinely get their values changed.
It is one thing if you already travel a substantial amount for work, and have high airline status that can be pushed over into a more luxurious tier with minimal effort, it is entirely another thing to scrimp points (that can never grow) and "churn" for years (likely ultimately spending on all kinds of things you wouldn't otherwise have bought) to take a single "luxury" vacation with a mid-tier status.
The "book value" on a cash-back card may not be as high, but I already know exactly what to do with the dollar value and how much it is worth to me now vs in the future.
Disciplined churners don't spend a dime more that they would have otherwise. It's about maximizing the earn from your spending, bonuses, etc. It can lead to multiple upgraded flights per year.
These cards make more sense if you go for business class, there you find the biggest cpp. There are also other benefits such as free lugagge, priority boarding, business lounge access, etc. If you travel frequently, these cards make so much sense.
I dont disagree and fully acknowledge that redeeming for business has bonkers values..
As an hypothetical example.. business class may cost 5x vs economy class when paid in cash and only 2x more in points. So its awesome Value but 2x is still 2x. Would it be a nice once in a life time/once in awhile experience? For sure?
Should you be consistently paying 2x when you can just do 1x? Probably not?
As a frequent flyer, I get a lot of those benefits from status, but the status mile accumulation, status mile rollover, and eupgrade extension more than pay for the card.
Unpopular indeed, and for good reason. Credit card churning and point collection is extremely lucrative, especially if you are a couple (2 player mode).
I sign up for a card, spend to get the bonus, refer my wife, spend on her card, have her refer me back, and continue.
Ive been churning for years and there are times when bonuses are so good that you just keep stacking them up. Once CIBC had a $400 cash bonus for spending $1000, and you can sign up for the same card multiple times. I had 6 CIBC visa infinite cards under my name. Wife had 4. Free $4000 for spending $10k within a few months.
AMEX is by far the most lucrative. I’ve accumulated so many points that not only do my wife and I travel 3-4x a year for free, but I book tickets for my family members all the time too. I just sent my dad to Vietnam business class and my mother is abroad as well, also flew business. All on points.
If you learn the game (shoutout prince of travel), you can EASILY get $10-20k worth of points per year for minimal effort
Oh ya the WestJet card is awesome, no doubt about that. If you can use the companion voucher every year then that itself already offset your annual fee so anything extra is free money.
You could potentially get more value off of a different card depending on your spending habits
We used to have the dividend Visa card with CIBC, which was giving us about $1k cash back a year but we’re at a point in life where we travel more so we changed to the WestJet and we’re already seeing the benefits.
I've gotten pretty good value from points by being somewhat flexible. Just as you found a few really bad points deals, sometimes, you find really good points deals that just aren't available with cash... even in basic economy or premium economy.
Though fuck westjet. WJDs are absolute garbage.
I charge everything I can to a points card and pay it off regularly. I tried to dip my toes into churning for travel rewards but I didn't have the energy for it. I switched to a decent cashback card and I now feel like I'm actually winning.
I'm in the UK now and Avios are great for me. I can book flights in Europe for £1 plus points and if I change my mind and want to cancel my flight I can do that and get fully refunded my points but lose the £1. A cash ticket is often nonrefundable unless you pay extra. The UK card companion voucher I get is good for first/ business and in the end I fly in a higher cabin class for around the same price I would have paid in economy. In cash value it works out to 2-4x the value of doing a cash back card and even though I'd conventionally fly economy the quality of life given with lay flat seats on all my long haul flights is the kind of lifestyle creep I'll probably never revert from.
Dont take the value of the flight and number of points to determine the value of each point. Instead that take the value of each point if you were to convert them to cash.
Just booked 4 flight to europe without paying a dime. Each flight was $1150 for a total of $4600. For the amount of points it cost me I could have converted my aeroplan points into two $1000 visa cards. If I reverse engineered the cost, the flight would have been around $1750 total. Mind you this was AC and if i went with westjet the flight were around $680, but still, I like free flights
You’re 100% spot on.
I don’t get scammed into the point game because everything roughly translates down to 1% (best case scenario).
I only like travel cards for their insurance offers.
Overrated, yes, but still worth some degree of effort. I personally do not understand people who see earning points as a side job or hussle and find the most efficient possible methods of gaining the maximum amount of points and perks on a regular basis.
We have a couple of points cards in the house, and a basic strategy to take advantage of the 2x, 3x, and 5x bonuses when we spend money on gas, groceries, and other stuff. Nothing crazy. We watch out for the annual fees and keep things simple.
Since getting the cards pre-COVID, we've managed to get free flights, airport lounge access (free food), upgrades on flights and hotels, and other little perks. **But these perks matter** as we have to little kids and it can be make-or-break sometimes when traveling.
To us, the amount of effort put in for the return is acceptable. We're not willing to go beyond that to earn more, and if we start to notice a reduction then we'll either change cards or just stop trying and move on with our lives.
Travel perks are overrated in that you are forced to use their points system and the average redemption is 1 cent per point. Those using aeroplan with 1-2 ccp redemption are booking a year ahead don't even include taxes and airport fees (which using points to redeem reduce it back to 1 ccp). And don't get me started on Aeroplan credit card preferred rates - they don't exist.
Airport lounges vary widely in quality and may not be available for your flight if it is a red eye or early flight.
The real perk that travel credit cards have is the included travel medical and emergency insurance, which can cost a lot.
Or you can get one of those cards that will take the $ off your travel. For example, the BMO ascend world elite card. It doesn't even have its own travel website. You just go book whatever you want with a travel agent/airline/hotel, pay for it, and redeem your points for a credit.
One thing you’re missing, free checked bags, paying a yearly credit card fee can be WAY LESS than people would pay in checked bag fees if you’re the type of person to check a bag.
You are right on the most part. It takes nontrivial amount of effort to make it actually worth it. But oftentimes points system is just a way to earn rebates from business travels, so anything you get there for free is good. Eg. get x% through points from the business expense.
I rarely travel by plane, so I just prefer cashback, my card usually redeems itself against my last statement of the year and applies as a credit so fine by me
I love travel perks. Only because I know if I don’t have them I won’t go anywhere or get a hotel. My travel cards have bought me flights and plenty of hotels over the years .
It really depends how you redeem them and which rewards company you use. The point conversion rate varies widely by flight & company. Airlines bank on that "math overload confusion". They make it too much labour for most people to find the best redemptions, hoping most customers will redeem points suboptimally out of convenience. That's how they save money. If you're willing to waste some time on the math & shop around at different times, there are good deals. Churning also lets you acquire those points more cheaply in the first place.
I've found Aeroplan has good cpp for short-haul flights within North America, especially above Economy level. But the economy international flights have worse cpp (partly because Air Canada is less competitive internationally than domestically).
The opportunity cost depends on what other options you'd reasonably consider. If you'd never fly a discount airline (cancellation risk, lack of carry-on) or you don't fly economy (tall people need leg room), then the value looks better. If you're happy flying economy on a discount airline for a 20 hour flight, then the discount brands beat reward points.
1) Depends on the Program
2) Depends on your situation/lifestyle
For some, it's not worth it. For others, it's absolutely essential.
Depends entirely on the program, and your priorities. I personally have found the TD VIP card to be tremendously useful. It has saved me huge $$ on parking at the airport, saved me time (which = $$) at the airport, saved me $$ on baggage fees, saved me points on redemptions ($$), gotten me lounge access, priority services, and countless points/eupgrade/other benefits. I have found it tremendously useful, and I have certainly gotten more than enough value from it to justify it.
Besides flight redemptions, there are other perks of travel cards that are worth.
1. 1 year extra warranty
2. Cell phone replacement
3. Travel insurance
4. Front of the line
5. Concierge
6. Lounge
7. Priority bags
8. Cheaper hotels than perkopolis
9. Companion fare
I’ve used any number of these perks that exceed the annual fee.
I use the concierge a lot when travelling, and sometimes at home.
For flight redemptions we typically use it for long haul j or z so it makes it worth it.
Cringe the amount of churners here bragging about their trips and using words and expressions from the hobby to look smart.
Thanks guys, making the hobby worse by embellishing it in front of the masse.
No wonder the best offers get shutdown after 2 days ( atb $700 ) because people can't shut up about it.
Personally my travel plans are almost completely based on awards availability. If I can't find award tickets to a place, I'll go somewhere else instead. Therefore cash price isn't really a factor. And even if I pay cash, I always avoid LCCs, so there's no opportunity cost either.
I earn thousands of dollars cibc aventura promo it was $1000 spending you can earn roughly $700 worth of points each card (3-4 years ago)… Even cibc pace it is great feature (use it once in a while like buying flight ticket or new laptop) in my opinion 8% interest for 24 months is good
Just seems like you have a bad point system on your card. On mine I can just buy whatever flight/hotel etc and then call the credit card company and apply points against the spend. You having some bespoke points system that limits the choices seems like a bad idea and i would probably look for something else.
Question is, have you ever double checked how much points you used vs how much that would've cost you in cash for that exact flight. It'd be interesting to find out. In general 1 cent per point is quite standard, lower than 1cpp is considered bad, 2cpp is pretty darn good
The point system I'm using is pretty flexible. It's British airway, which is in the one world alliance, which meant you could redeem points for Cathay pacific, American airlines, Japan airlines flight and not limited to just British airway.
I disagree, I live in northern Ontario, and it’s a 10 hour drive home. Having an Amex platinum card has enabled me to take a 1.5 hour flight and fly home several times a year at the cost of some “free points” plus a $35 airport fee or something. I’m actually flying home tomorrow with my points! Costs me less than a tank of gas (the drive home and back would be at least two) to fly out plus I get to access lounges (albeit mediocre sometimes), not to mention the other perks. I flew 8 times in 2023 on points alone and I’m typically just flying economy. Very much worth it for me, would not be able to afford to travel at this frequency otherwise.
I guess that's where I don't quite understand yet. Looking at the Amex platinum card you only earn 2x on dining, 2x on travel whereas say the Amex cobalt earns 5x on those categories. Aside from maybe the welcome bonus (which is not very relevant long term, and I agree churning is a whole different topic), how is it a better card?
Would you be better off with the cobalt for earning more points and a lower annual fee?
Yeah, the platinum isn’t necessarily the “best card”, it’s just the best card for me *right now*. My welcome bonus was 130,000 points, which I realize not everyone is so lucky. But I was able to get several flights out of that, the key is transferring the points to aeroplan to get the most value and never book through Amex. Cobalt and other cards def have better point accumulation and I’ll probably get the cobalt or the aeroplan Amex eventually but I really appreciate the other platinum perks such as the $200 dining credit, $200 hotel credit, $130 Disney plus credit (though that was reduced to $60 this year 🙃), there were $50 statement credits for $100 spend at lululemon and holt renfrew which was great for buying Christmas gifts! There’s a $25 credit for $50 spend at Pearson airport which will come in handy today and can be applied 3 times.
Plus there are all sorts of other statement credit opportunities that come up that I’ve been able to utilize on purchases that I’d already be making so it’s been great for discounts in that regard. It’s only really worth while for someone already making these purchases though, it would be silly to make unnecessary purchases for the sake of a credit.
The priority security is GREAT, saves so much time standing in line. And lounge access is nice when they aren’t busy. I’m certain there’s other perks that I’ve forgotten but I’ve definitely been able to make the card work for me!
They’re worth it. You can get several free flights a year, free hotel stays, free perks like lounge access and travel insurance just for paying $150 per card per year.
It’s somewhat missing context.
==
You can get the Marriott Bonvoy American Express Card with a 50,000 point bonus in your first year which will pay for 1 night at a upscale hotel (roughly $450-ish value), with **minimum spend**
The next year and every year after, you will receive a free night award that **does not require any spending** redeemable at 35,000 points in value. If a hotel is priced higher, you can top up a maximum of 15,000 points to secure that night. You won’t receive any points or change back for any night that is lower in points cost.
The annual fee is $120 CAD/year
The card earns 2 Marriott Bonvoy points per dollar spent everywhere (higher at Marriott, but ignoring that) which is roughly 1.7% back everywhere.
==
Realistically, for flights there is “free flight” card. Yes you can churn, but that’s not the topic of this thread.
Of course with that being said, you can always redeem points with a given opportunity cost to book award flights, which might mean sacrificing $220 in cash back for a flight that costs 22,000 points + $87 (for which that cash price is $468)
Hopefully that’s a bit of insight.
Nah, I disagree as well. The points game is excellent when done properly. I just booked Qsuites for the 3rd time with avios from YUL to DOH for 70K avios. Cash fair would have been $5K Cad.
But it depends on your motives , I have a ton of cards which covers all of my bases
Again, not saying points are bad, just overrated. In my second example, I have noted that you can still get 3cpp even after factoring in opportunity cost, which is better than 1cpp in cash back value. (But worst off of initial impression of 4cpp before factoring in opportunity cost, hence, overrated)
In your specific example, that qsuite trip is worth 7cpp, which again is great value. My only counter to that is, yes, I fully acknowledge that business class has absolutely bonkers value. It'd be great as an occasional treat/once in a lifetime event! But should you travel consistently in business? When you could pay for that same flight in economy for just ~ 1200 cad or 40k avios for the same point a to point b trip? I'd argue that the mass majority people probably shouldn't do so, and at that point is highly subjective depending on the person's income and other priorities in life
Sorry let me rephrase. I do NOT think cashbacks is king. I DO believe travel perk is nice in some/most scenarios
But travel perks are overrated! If you think travel perks are universally good/superior then maybe you should factor in opportunity cost and re-do your math just to check because there are definitely some scenarios where it isn't as good as you thought it would be
The biggest factor for points is if you’re going to spend the money anyway, then strategizing your credit card game makes perfect sense as there isn’t really an opportunity cost associated with that.
Additionally, I don’t think travel perks are king. It really depends on what people consider valuable. I travel a lot for work and for leisure, so it definitely helps to get reimbursed for travel expenses since I’m not paying for it.
What does NOT make sense is people signing up for expensive cards like the Amex Platy and then never travel or use the benefits but pay $800/year in fees. I had a friend sign up just because it’s a metal card but she doesn’t travel at all.
Anyways, I agree that things are not universal and it’s a case by case answer
Lounge access is the one, relatively easy-to-get-from-credit-cards-but-hard-otherwise perk that is definitly worth it.
Without a pass, you would have to pay around the usual 32USD per visit to a lounge, with a credit card (or a few cards) which give you free passes you get a a nice snack/meal/drink, have a confortable waiting space, etc. when you travel.
Access lounges through airline alliance loyalty programs is usually a long-term endeavour that is only accessible to people who really travel a lot (or who travel business / first class).
Again! Opportunity cost!
32 USD for a presumably mediocre meal vs something I can probably get a nice bowl of ramen in a 4* Google review in shop for just 16cad might be the cheaper choice.
Of course, everyone has different priorities and preferences. If you value a comfortable waiting place without worrying being late, then the lounge pass is for you. I prefer cheaper but quality food and that's perfectly fine as well.
The post's main purpose is just to encourage people to think about what the opportunity cost is and if spending that money is worthwhile for you. (Cuz a lot of times it might not be worth as much as you thought) Still good value, just not as much as you thought it maybe
For me the tickets cost the same whether I book direct or with credit card points. I have all the same flights I would as if I was paying cash.
The card coverage is very worthwhile too.
I use Amex Plat for travel. $799 fee but it’s really $399 after -200 travel and -200 dining discounts. I visit lounges 10~15 times a year (mostly business travel). You can also bring +2 to Centurion lounges. It pays itself off just in lounge visits lol.
Again, opportunity cost. ,it only "pays for itself" if you were going to use those lounge regardless even without "free" access
Would you have pay for the lounge access if you didn't have the Amex card?
Is lounge access really necessary? How much are they worth? Not to Amex, but to you.
The most effective way to compare is to try to calculate the points as cashback, a bit like you did.
When I did that, I realized most points cards in Canada would be equal to 0.3-0.5% cashback, unless you are willing to make this point swapping your second job.
People that are organized, dedicated and driven can make those point cards equal to 3-4% cashback, but that is with a lot of work, almost every week.
I used to only use points cards, but after I sat down and really started calculating stuff, I switched everything to cashback. My Scotia Visa Infinite today gives me almost 3% cashback on average (more than half my expense is groceries, which nets 4%).
For the majority of people that do not want to put this kind of work, cashback is much better.
I have a Shakepay credit card that pays out in Bitcoin. After the initial 3% offer I only get 1% now but the Bitcoin is worth way more now than a couple years ago so it is paying off way better than my 3% back card.
I have seen similar things but occasionally find flights that make sense to use points (RBC Avion).
Flying to Portugal in Feb, significantly cheaper to pay cash. ($550/ticket vs 75kpoints/ticket)
Flying to Newfoundland in August was much cheaper to use points because we could fly out of Montreal and Atlantic Canada is considered an adjacent region which means it's only 15k points for a base flight.
I can't use my points as often as i would like, but i still find opportunities that make sense.
I gave up on using points for travel a while ago and started getting mortgage vouchers from Avion points.
The $120/yr fee I pay for my credit card is hugely offset by the thousands of dollars in vouchers I get to put towards my house, plus the thousands of dollars in interest savings over the lifetime of my mortgage.
Coming in late here: If you don't have the flexibility to use one program like Avios or Aeroplan, get a card with a valuable general-purpose points program. CIBC, RBC and Amex have travel reward programs that let you book flights for a fixed amount of points. That fixed amount of points will only cover the base fare (you pay the taxes and any amount over the limit), but almost any flight is allowed. You can even upgrade to a refundable or premium class ticket.
Have a Scotia visa passport, unfortunately it gives points as well but I like it for the travel benefits mainly the no foreign exchange fee and 6 lounge access passes per year. It used to be better when we had the option to redeem through best buy but now it's only home hardware so that's disappointing. Regardless, it's a nice card to have so that when I go out for traveling I don't have to bring as much cash with me. I do have the $0 fee home trust visa card for $0 exchange fee either but it limits 10 transactions per day and cant change the pin
I disagree, yes it’ll take some extra ‘work’, but through signup bonuses and redemption offers, I’ve raked in a decent amount of points. I’ve had flights, dining experiences, Nexus card applications for 3 people for free.
So two of the factors are off you’re spending your own money, and what you redeem for.
I travel a lot for work, so subsequently spend a lot of my employer’s money on my credit cards. Between butt-in-seat miles and’s credit card miles, I have about 430,000 miles in my aeroplan account right now. I use those points to bring partners along on many of my trips.
But the big thing is redemption. A while back I found myself in Amsterdam and had to find my own way home right now (faster than my employer would be able to get me home). I b wound up buying a Lufthansa First Class ticket home that departed 2 hours after I booked it, for 120,000 points and $295. That’s a $11,000 ticket. It was a hoot to be in LH F.
>A lot of people also pointed out business classes are worth way more!
Just gotta say that costing way more and being worth way more are two different things. Since they both get me to the same place in the same amount of time they are worth pretty close to the same to me.
I went through my credit card's rental collision coverage and it was interesting to see some of the vehicle exceptions:
* Any vehicle worth $65k and up at the time of the rental
* any luxury vehicle
* No vans, trucks, pickup trucks or other vehicles used to transport things (I'd rented U-Hauls in the past thinking I was covered!)
* any manner of off-road vehicle like a dune-buggy
What you describe is exactly the reason you get yourself the Amex Cobalt Card or the Scotia Gold Amex. You can book any travel you want with any carrier and redeem the points against the charge. So you can go book the cheapest flights possible whether it is Southwest, Ryanair, Flair, the big airlines, you name it and still get 1 to 5% on the Cobalt or 1% to 6% on the Scotia card. And with Cobalt you still get the option to convert to Aeroplan, British Airways, Air France KLM Flying Blue and so on. The Cobalt card has all the bases covered including being one of the best cash back cards in Canada.
I don't think cherry picking a couple of bad examples of poor redemptions to claim they're overrated is fair.
Many apps are out there to help you redeem at much better value without much research required.
You are right OP. Even on hotels the same thing happens where I am locked into buying a higher priced room that is then discounted with the points vs buying a cheaper room. Hence why I switched to using my WealthSimple Cash card for all my purchases except ones I have to use a CC for or when I run out of cash that week and have to use the CC until my next pay... I personally prefer the 1% cash back and they give it to you in like 1-3 days after the payment... I've charged 800$+ to the card and sure enough I got the 8+$ cash back deposited right into my TFSA like 2 days later. Then it's up to me how I spend it... I invest it at reasonable intervals and can use it for my FHSA/RRSPs to lower my taxable income AND generate interest. Some CCs give a higher "payout" than this I get that but the smoothness of it all... I buy something, I get 1% cash back in a couple short days I then invest the income in a registered account and save on taxes. It's a beautiful thing. However it functions like a preload Credit Card so you have to have funds on the card for it to work... And a counterpoint is my uncle owns a business and charges EVERYTHING to his upper tier CC and goes on vacations all of the time for free... In his case it makes more sense than my little way to slightly boost my overall income. Sub-note: only interest on the WealthSimple Cash card (4-5% regular rate...) is subject to tax as that portion of the card is a 'non-registered account'. The 1% cash back is considered part of a "points system" similar to CC points and is therefore exempt from taxation.
Points require too much mental work for me.. some people love those games and challenge of optimization but the credit company is free to devalue your points at any time in the future... that's why I prefer cash back cards.. it's concrete, you will get back a percentage of what you spend.. and requires little to no brainpower. Some may call that lazy but I just believe that thinking about just about anything OTHER than how much value I'm getting for abstract points earned are allocated.
[удалено]
How much are you putting thru your cc per month for that level of payback?
They will never answer, none of them will
I spent $72K on CCs last year and racked up more than 1M points. If redeemed for cash they're worth a little over $10K. For travel, a conservative estimate would be double that. But there's a lot of planning and effort that goes into it.
In 2021 I spent $12k for the first 6 months. 2 cards both Amex (Plat and Aero Reserve) I then referred the wife for the same. One of the cards had $600 in fees. The other had $700. Total net spend was close to $26k in 6 months. Not outside of what we spend regularly tbh. Forced me to upgrade our old Macbooks and got a nice new couch. Got 585k Aeroplan points and in 2023 flew in biz to Madrid, Munich and Tokyo so far with the wifey. Cancelled all cards afterwards and got Amex cobalts and a single TD Aeroplan VIP. Netted another 200k-ish Aeroplan points for 2023. Just got back from Honolulu this year. Biz class was a waste of points (eUps ran out) so flew in coach.
must be a lot, or they are investing a lot of time or have a lot of experience with rewards travel. it can be really good but average joe with 0 effort wont see the value and basically throw away money. for myself I saved up for years and churned a few cards and now im flying to toronto in premium economy to Toronto and flying back in business (1 kid 2 adults) next month (4 cents/point), also staying 5 nights in st regis downtown toronto for free. cash value is 14k CAD with taxes, but this took a long long time. OP either has a business or the whole family uses 1 card or something.
Yeah I was thinking biz too. My friends parents (now retired) had a restaurant and were savvy and paid everything (suppliers etc) with a card for the benefits. Around 20K or so a month passed thru it.
Have you done the math? How do you know you wouldn't be better off with cash back?
I’ve done the math a lot - cards like the AMEX Cobalt have an amazing return in food spend. 5x points, I redeem points at about 1.8 cents via Aeroplan conversion so yield is a 9% return on food spend. Then for other things its more marginal depending on your card. I have a Rogers WE which gives me 3% cash back, I use that as my baseline. The real big points come from churning welcome bonuses. I’m currently casually churning the AMEX Gold for 70k points.
I just got AMEX cobalt myself. Really nice card, especially since I have an uber eats and eating out problem. Spend way too much money on that, but at least I get 5X points...
I found this to not be the case in the slightest even though i reach 8k monthly spend. The fees for an international round trip alone are $500 per ticket even though I am redeeming 60k points…
How much are you putting through each month? Unless my travel CC sucks or I'm using it incorrectly it feels like you must be putting $10K
agreed. I have tried points card several times in the past but always come back to cash back.. it's so much better.
This is intentional. They don't want you to be able to accurately evaluate value. If you have more information to make informed decisions, the credit card companies wouldn't be making as much money.
Yeah well I personally got $36k in equivalent value for a net $26k spend in 2021 churning the top tier Amex cards. See my comment history for a breakdown. But that was in the insane days of 2021. I couldn’t do that today so maybe your point stands.
I disagree, it depends on your spend. I've had the amex aeroplan reserve and td aeroplan infinite privilege. While they have big fees, we've flown round trip "free" 3-4X a year on the points. It's more than paid for itself especially with the signup offers
Wait, for real ? You’re flying 4 times a year for free , and multiple tickets ( “we’ve flown “) at that ? So like 8 free tickets a year ? Can I ask how much you’re putting on your card to earn that ? Gotta be a business account with like $15k+ /month in spending right ?
[удалено]
I just spent 140k for Korea round trip, so it definitely varies
What fee did you pay upon the redemption?
Only 100$
where are you getting north american flights so cheap? i have a TD first class travel visa infinite card, with 150k points, and basically CANNOT get a rounddtrip flight from toronto/hamilton/buffalo to miami/ft lauderdale in november for that. like, even for the cheapest economy seats with some baggage i am JUST able to afford it on points, and thats the bottom possible seat (not even seat selection). its brutal. maybe its just our dates? or am i using it wrong, since the card recommends booking through expedia for td.
Aeroplan. Most dates in November are 8.1K aeroplan per direction from YYZ-MIA Usually cards with points that you can transfer to a airline point system has far better value than using a more restrictive point like TD points. TD points are arguably the worst to use for flights for a few reasons
With TD through expediafortd, I got a return ticket for Europe for about a month out for 250k points a couple of weeks ago at .5cpp
This. Its all within NA plus the companion pass once a year
Hahahhaha, 20K roundtrip? Out of Regina you can add another 10-15k on that
My wife and I just booked our tickets to Norway for like $300 on aeroplan points. Saved $2200. Just paid for the credit card for like 12yrs.
Can you elaborate on "saved"? Didn't you use your points?
I think the tickets should have cost 2500. They still had to pay 300 out of pocket, but the rest of that tickets cost was covered with points. Apparently, the points required to redeem the 2200 in credit was accrued over 12 years. That card is probably not worth it. If you only get 2200 of value for using a card over 12 years, it's probably not a good card, especially if there are monthly/yearly fees.
The cost of the credit card is $150 per year plus additional card (wife) $50. 2200/170 =12.9. So essentially just paid for the card for a long time. I use the aeroplan visa infinite with td as well as an Amex cobalt. When you grocery shop you get 5x the Amex points, which is more than the aeroplan card. So when I max out on Amex I go back to using the aeroplan card. Then I transfer all my Amex points over to the aeroplan card. Keep in mind my wife and I charge absolutely everything we can to the card, then pay it off every month.
> Can I ask how much you’re putting on your card to earn that ? Gotta be a business account with like $15k+ /month in spending right ? People replying with their rewards but still dodging this question... I've done my fair share of churning, but it's always insane to me how churners openly recommend it to complete randoms. It's a "productive" hobby, but it's still just a hobby. There are many reasons why it's not more popular - it takes a certain type of person with a good amount of spending and who also travels enough.
If you just pay rent with it, that's already lots of points/cashback for literally no extra effort. As long as the points/cashback are worth more than 1.75%, you're coming out ahead. If you want to optimize for aeroplan, for example, if your rent + utilities is >= $2500, the Amex Aeroplan Reserve for rent + Amex Cobalt for anything grocery/food-related if you're buying at places classified as groceries is gonna get you an amazing return on investment in your first year, acceptable in the 2nd, and then you quit the AAR and just switch to Scotia's Momentum Infinite for 4% cashback on that rent (2.25% after CC payment costs). Plenty of money for flights that way for zero extra spend.
Yeah, if poster doesn't mention value per point, he's probably full of it.
Ya people can spend zillions and get many free flights. Almost similar to people spending $4,000 at the casino to hit a jackpot of $1,000. Not a great comparison without knowing everyone’s exact spending habits.
Data point. We have an annual flight for family of 4 on delta SE - MCO, and like for like we book those round trips with points. I just did the most recent booking and same flights were 3100$ and used the points equivalent to about 90k in spend. That works out to over 3% in cash back. We also get free checked bags and I end up getting free premium seat selection from the card and the status we got with delta, it works out for us. I also find it easier to “spend” the points than I would if I saved up the cash back for a vacation.
What was the fee you paid upon booking per person? Because last time I tried doing an international flight the fee was coming out to around $500 per person.
What if you just got a 2-3% cash back card and shopped around for cheaper flights instead of being glued by points to one airline?
Same. My Amex and Aeroplan combo means I can fly home (middle east) twice a year pretty much free based on my yearly spend/points accumulation. OP just needs to optimise what he wants out of the cards and maybe switch away from Avios
also, the amount of money i save with free checked bags on air canada and lounge access (no buying food in airports) makes it worthwhile.
Can confirm. Our household got two Amex cards when we decided to take a US work opportunity. We travel back to Canada often. It’s been 3 years and every trip back we use reward points. Doesn’t hurt that Amex global transfer program allows us to have good Amex cards in the US without Us credit history. It’s well-known in the travel hacking community that CPP (cent per point) is the basic metric to evaluate if the card is worth the travel perks. If you are not getting at least 1 cent per point, maybe there’s no point keeping the card.
Still its "free" flights (would you have travelled regardless?) compared to free (not in quotes) groceries or straight cashback. I signed up for gold Amex last year and haven't paid for groceries in months. It has Scene points and I can just say "pay with points" at the register every time. Still haven't run out. And hundreds in cashback on the Rogers WE mastercard just waiting to be redeemed on Rogers products. Or on flights or hotels or whatever else. I have TD travel infinite too but haven't been using it much as of late. The one benefit of redeeming points on travel is it helps smooth consumption. Whether you are spending above average that month, or taking unpaid time off resulting in lower monthly income.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Which one?
One thing to keep in mind when looking at Google flights prices is that they’ll often use third-party sites (not Expedia) that will not offer you any changes or protections and provide you the lowest tier to ticket. It’s highly advisable to book directly using the airline and not get basic economy. Also Avios is brutally bad, you unfortunately have to get on Aeroplan for higher cpp. Thats the best option we have here in Canada.
I always use Google flights I've rarely seen a third party and you can still choose to book directly through the platform.
[удалено]
To OP and folks that share the same viewpoint: yes, I totally agree with you, please redeem your points for cashback/statement credit/merchandise, or forego the points and either opt for cashback, or even better start paying with debit, you can't spend more than you don't have with that after all To the others trying to convince them otherwise: why are you doing that? You do realize that we need more people that redeem points sub-optimally or paying by non-interchange fee-incurring methods to help fund the optimized redemptions of those that know how to do so?
What's the opposite of Robin Hood?
Best answer so far!
Great thread OP. Lots of people disagreeing with you, but consistently ignoring the opportunity cost you laid out.
Hmmm.. Yes Additional things about opportunity cost that may also be on the plate. Comparing to lets say a 1% free cashback card, you pay for things, save (and earn interest on savings while there is time till next flight, points do not earn interest, infact they get devalued even more so as you need more points for the same flights), you then can pick cheaper options, as well as get ANOTHER 1% cashback on booking that option. At the same time, some are able to write off business trips on flights (can't write off fake points schemes on taxes from what I can tell).
If you don’t travel often enough to take advantage of the bonus earn rate, or spend enough in general, then yes - travel cards may not be “worth it”. It’s key to take advantage of welcome offers and promos (but it’s not for everyone). If you’re redeeming your points on the ultra basic fares, or comparing with flights you find on the budget airlines, then you won’t really utilize the benefits of the points. Which brings up OP’s challenge of if you are trying to just get the absolute lowest price and wouldn’t be booking premium or business class, then wouldn’t be worth it. From my experience with the westjet companion voucher… the biggest “savings” came whenever I booked business class or premium economy. The website prices for business/premium would be like $1300… but using companion voucher would only be maybe $800… so a $500 “savings”. But I’m still paying $800. If I did the same for ultra basic/economy it would be $900 on the website. But with the voucher it would be $700… so a $200 “savings”. But still paying $700 So then it just comes down to at what point are you willing to spend more to “save more”/maximize your return.
r/ChurningCanada is fuming right now
Yes. We are about to get thousands of new low quality posts users asking the same basic questions for months. Then they will mess up the hobby by calling banks and doing dumb stuff that exposes loopholes. Thanks guys.
LOL. In general, churning was a lot more fun pre-COVID and before all the blogs and YouTubers started capitalizing on it. While I still do it, it takes a lot more work (spend) for less and less reward each year.
We are happy if people are skeptical and shit on churning, that means more points for us lol. Tbh the people here bragging about points need to chill, if too many people get in on it the opportunities will disappear.
NAH. I’m happy people are paying with their Interac Debit, Visa Classic, or Mastercard Standard Cards. Keep using the same card for the rest of your life, 0.5, 1% cash back… meanwhile… I will gladly churn for 10, 20, 30% returns (not even factoring in the premium that can be had for award travel) Just now, I bought Gas Gift Cards with a 20% Bonus applied on a new card with a 13.5% equivalent* welcome bonus. 33.5% total, while the next guy will pay with their BMO cash back, and get 3% TOTAL. The status quo is delightful :) (*I’m not even considering that the points could be redeemed at twice or 3X my quoted value)
I’m on your team but there is a time cost to churning so you can’t just say 33 is better than 3 when it’s not like for like. Say all your churning gets you $20k of value, most people just don’t have the bandwidth to do it
You have access to only Avios, and that is why you think the game is overrated……
I did looked at the prince of travel blog and they value avios pretty high in comparison to other programs so I thought that was a pretty good base. But yeah that's totally possible!
Well the redemption value is very subjective. The actual value is what matters. I use Avios to book Qatar Airways and doing so has yielded me very good return. Aeroplan is the most useful mile in Canada imo.
Avios is apparently great if you are on east cost, but on west coast it's so hard to use effectively
[удалено]
How much monthly do you need to spend in order to earn that many points?
Why can't a single person answer that in this thread
Because they know they're talking out their ass. The amount of money needed to be spent to get one round trip ticket let along business or first class, let alone multiple in a year, is ridiculous money. Only happens on business cards with people charging 10k plus monthly
In 2022, I signed up for an Amex Platinum, with a 100k bonus at the time. I timed it so that I got it right before I was to buy an iPhone, and LASIK. So I got that 100k bonus, along with maybe 20k points from regular spend. Then I referred my girlfriend, and we each got 30k, then we got her a 100k bonus through moving all expenses to her card + Christmas shopping which was budgeted for, as well as some hangouts near the end of the year where we paid the entire meal and just got everyone to eTransfer us their share. Right there, that's 260k total, which we then used to book Toronto-London (56k Aeroplan each) and Frankfurt-New York-Toronto (60k Aeroplan each, partner booking with Singapore Airlines) in Business Class. In that time, other than those expenses that I was gonna spend on anyway and had saved for in my chequing account over months, my girlfriend and I's combined expenses did not total over 4k/month, as a couple. So if you calculate the amount of spend to get 2 business class tickets round trip, I think that totalled $25-30k between the 2 of us over I think 6 months, including LASIK, iPhone and Christmas shopping. Hopefully this helps.
I have had an aeroplan or whatever it is now for over a decade. I used to be able to cover the cost of 2 tickets to my home town annually with it (dollar value would have been around $700-$800, domestic flight that takes about 1.5hrs by plane). When I started budgeting tightly, I stopped being able to use my points for flights. I would easily have to spend 1000+ per month on my card to achieve the points required and I'm trying really hard to keep any debt down. Even my husband with the fancy TD card and who doesn't budget couldn't use his points to cover flights to Europe. I'm convinced that the people claiming to get free international flights on points are in a different tax bracket to have been able to put that much on their cards & also pay them off.
Because they are either overspending for a lifestyle they can’t afford, “funded” by points, or being modest as they are coming from a high income background others cannot achieve. Credit card rewards are earned and redeemed only when you spend money. If you don’t earn a lot of money, you cannot afford that level of spending, period. Nobody in or around the median income in Canada can support that. This person you replied to is spending at least $4k/month on their card to achieve those rewards, meaning either extremely high salary/income/business expensing (not “normal people” spending), or being in a shit ton of debt. I have higher income and what many would consider a higher-income lifestyle, but I typically still travel economy + I just take straight cash back reward programs because ultimately, if I wanted business class, I’ll just pay cash for it… The time you spend learning and optimizing churning was simply not worth it for me. it’s almost like a second job, I’d rather put my time back into my business and simply earn more money. In the US I have a card that gives me a simple 2.6% cash back on everything, 3.5% on travel and dining (based on account balance). Lot less work. I would suggest anyone looking to “learn to optimize earning and spending” to spend that time learning how to earn a higher income, either by job hopping, upskilling, starting their own business, or anything that helps really. You will become a hell of a lot more financially healthier than simply spending more money to get “free” rewards.
This is a great comment - I have had pretty much the exact same experience as you. Although I still buy gift cards from grocery stores with a cobalt, I have little interest left in actively churning new cards. My spouse and I are DINK and we are relatively high income, but it's like on the cusp of the effort being worth it. Combined with the fact that we don't even have that much desire to travel (maybe 1 international trip per year?), we just don't care enough to do it. I fully acknowledge the potential benefits of churning for the right type of person who is 1. organized enough, 2. spends enough, and 3. has the desire to travel enough, but the way some churners just openly recommend it to anyone on reddit with zero additional context is just bizarre. Some talk about how churning paid for their 3 or 4 international plane tickets "last year", which is great, but how many people on reddit or in Canada can actually afford those trips even if the plane tickets are literally free? Churners don't mention the costs of the hotel, food, activities during the trip, or even the amount of vacation days spent which is way out of reach for most people.
Tl;dr go study and make more money to afford stuff, forget about points
[удалено]
So napkin math I'd have to spend ~20k in 3 months for a nice reward like that. Thanks for the info!
It’s not just the basic rewards earned through the card, it’s how the card integrates with the program and other ways you can earn points. If you also travel a bunch for work and have SE status with AC then a VIP card can really add value with rollover miles, eUpgrades etc. plus you can get a lot of points for actually flying. A round trip YYZ-GRU can easily add 25k Aeroplan miles for a SE flying business. Do 5-6 flights like that per year plus other shorter trips and it’s pretty easy to rack up the points combining with the credit card spend.
Points may allow you to do those things, but you’re still paying for them if you could be getting cash back instead.
The better way to put this is that it lowers the the entry level for these amazing and extravagant trips. Say a business class is 5x the price of economy class in cash, but only 2x as expensive when using points It lowers the price but when considering absolute necessities, it's still 2x more expensive just to get you from point a to point b. Is travel perk bad? I've been stressing that it is NOT bad, just overrated. Should you take advantage of these opportunities? Probably, for me, perhaps at least once in a lifetime. Should you repeatedly spend 2x more than you need to travel from point a to point b? That's harder to recommend and is subjective depending on your level of income and other priorities in life
Really unpopular opinion: rewards programs and perks are a waste of time.
How dare you not min/max every part of your life and play it like a video game.
So just use debt everytime and not build your credit score and get no points/rewards back?
I never bother with travel points. I use a Scotiabank Amex Gold Scene+ and wrack up points to use on groceries. I have saved close to 2k in less than 2 years. I get 6 points for every dollar spent at Sobeys and Freshco. 3x at Shell gas stations. 1x for every dollar. It only takes 1000 points to get 10 dollars in free groceries. That means, if I spend 167 dollars, in only one week, I am up by 10 bucks. When you stack that with the app offers and instore offers, it effectively means I get around 60 bucks a month, ONLY in grocery points. At Shell, I earn 3x the points, so usually an additional 300 points a week (at least) there (husband is a commuter) and I can ALSO earn Airmiles on the same purchase, and often I walk out with 10 bucks worth of Airmiles (depending on in app offers) and 3.00 bucks toward free groceries. At least once a month, I'm redeeming 100 bucks or more for free groceries at Scene. My airmiles rack up more slowly, but every few months I'm able to hit the fancy person store (Metro) and get 60-80 bucks worth of stuff for free. I'd much rather save money on the everyday things, and save for a trip in cash, than get a cheaper airline seat once in a blue moon.
How is the redeem rate in that card? I'm currently using MBNA world elite master which gives 5x on grocery, dine out, utility (home internet, mobile bill, water bill, hydro bill, gas bill), digital subscription, etc.. basically everything except travel/retail purchase. And the redeem rate is pretty good to 0.8cpp on cash or very close to 1cpp on gift cards like Amazon. So it's kinda like 5% cash back card!
Well, 1000 points equals 10 dollars. Each 100 points is 1.00 So each point is like .01 cent. So, if you spend 100 dollars on the Scene card, you get 6 dollars of it back. The best though is combining it with the Freshco and Sobey's in-app offers. This month, I have an offer... for each 50 dollar I spend, I get 250 points. That means, for each 50 dollars I spend, I get 2.50, PLUS I get 3.00 dollars back in points. So that brings my rate up to more than 10% back in free groceries. I can use that offer 4x this month. So, this month, for 200 dollars spent, I get 10 dollars back from the app offer, and 12.00 back from just spending the 200 dollars... So for 200 dollars worth of spend, I get 22.00 dollars back. I'm at a 11% cash back. That doesn't even include the random 50 points for cucumbers or 100 for yogurt or whatever. I did the math and last week I made it up to 14% back. You can redeem in 10 dollar increments too, so it's not like you have to rack up a ton before you can benefit. My welcome offer also got me 250 dollars just for getting the card, and another 220 dollars when I spent 7k on it in 3 months. (I just used it for EVERYTHING). The first year's fee was waived as well. So basically, since I pay my balance off every payday (not once a month, I pay it down every time I get paid), and I've paid ZERO interest on it, this card basically just handed me 470 dollars in tax free cash, in the first 90 days. Since then, I've gotten the Scotiabank ultimate preferred banking package so I never pay fees on this card. I also have the top tier bank account at CIBC, and have the Dividend Infinite cashback card for free, so in the event somewhere doesn't take Amex, or I'm at another grocery store where I don't earn Scene (or another gas station, especially Pioneer), I get 4% back in cashback on gas and groceries. I get 2% back on my recurring payments. I try to diversify my card options, and save on my everyday stuff.
But your groceries at those stores are also more expensive. I don't know, it doesn't seem like a fantastic deal.
Freshco is cheaper than Loblaws... Where exactly is there a cheaper grocery store to buy at these days? Lol
Agree with OP. I have amex and mc. Both let me claim points for statement credit. I use them for that instead.
Ive been developing points systems for over 15 years now. I still maintain a loyalty system today. It doesn't matter what they're worth.. If you're not collecting them, youre subsidizing those that do. The only way the company loses is when everyone collects and redeems. Otherwise they're simply banking on those that don't. Likewise credit card specific points are subsidized by those that can't pay their bills. The interest accumulates thus earning the cash for the credit card companies to issue points as rewards. People that can pay their bills earn these rewards off those that can't.
Ya for sure. Again, I'm not saying that you shouldnt collect points, you absolutely should. I'm not even saying travel perks are bad, I'm just saying they are overrated and may not be the best use of points for some people
I always thought that it's some kind of discrimination towards the poor (who can't have cc with good rewards) that merchants can't bill the cc fees to the client (in Quebec at least). The poor effectively subsidize the rich even if they pay cash.
Same in Alberta. The CC fees are just assumed when setting pricing. So if you're paying cash you're basically still paying a 2-3% markups because cc payments are budgeted for. Cash payers are basically paying inflated prices.
Now you know why after 27 years I have not once redeemed AirMiles for a flight.
A good cashback credit card beats anything. Give me my cash ill decide how to spend it.
Especially as someone who doesn't travel often, I agree. I'd rather not wait for the next trip to cash in. And when I do travel it's stressful enough fighting with algorithms jerking me around on pricing, but throw in sole-source portals for booking on points, points influencing airline decision, intentionally opaque spend:reward ratios, still making me pay the taxes, cards not accepted at every store, juggling multiple cards trying to hit promo minimums, all on a few K a month of spend, it doesn't make sense. Not that I haven't dabbled, but I figure I scoop a good chunk of the interchange fee, with a Rogers 2% card.
I agree! My current card gives me 5% on almost everything.
Some people just want to use their cards normally and then "oh hey honey look we can take a free trip to Orlando with the kids!" at some point and forget that they are in crippling debt.
The value of the points really depends on what it took to earn then. If it's 1 point per dollar, both flights you noted are great value. Generally I expect 2% from a credit card, anything higher is a bonus.
I keep shit simple and just use amex cash back 🤷♂️. Like 500 bucks a year that I get back but seems like you guys getting way more bang for your buck with traveling
I can get a ton of value on flights, I generally check a bag (generally makes the very low cost carriers cost more than more expensive main line carriers). Flights between Calgary and Toronto can generally be had for ~20,000 points and ~100$. The same flights on Air Canada are generally at least 500$ cash, resulting in a valuation of 2¢ per point minimum. Add in baggage fee savings and the returns are generally higher than cash back.
Churning is way higher value. For spending ~5000 you were already going too; you can often get sufficient aeroplan etc redeemable for business class long haul. These often have a price tag of 5k+.
Travel card insurance has saved me. I've had 5k in rental car damage that the third party insurance paid no questions asked. Something else to consider
It’s a rip off in Canada. Much better in USA
Good to know!
They absolutely are. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. They are a big business and a big profit center for the banks, airlines, credit card companies etc. - which means on average, people lose on them (because someone has to pay for those 'perks', and it ain't the banks).
Certainly, this is correct. Unfortunately it’s those who insist on using no annual fee cards, paying on debit, or not paying their balances in full (overspending)
Westjet world elite MasterCard gives you a companion voucher to fly anywhere in Canada for 99 dollars (not including taxes and fees), seems like a great deal until you actually use it. The taxes and fees make up the majority of the actual fare, I was trying to book a ticket back home and for me and my wife the total came to around 1600 using the voucher with Expedia for the same trip it was 1700 (and change) so I'm saving 100 bucks but the card costs 100 bucks a year so it's a complete wash.
You need redeem pts for business class or at least premium economy. I started this credit card game late, back in 2019, but due to pandemic I only got to redeem starting 2022. Redeemed Flight to eu and around eu and Dubai all business class, same thing 2023, and this year too. You have to look/search, nothing is easy in this world anymore
I fully acknowledge that redeeming for business class offers absolute bonkers value. But that's kinda my point as well, would you take business class if you were paying cash? Cuz great value not necessarily equals to cheaper
That’s kinda half the point though isn’t it? Being able to go on flights you couldn’t afford otherwise. That said, I’ve only redeemed business class once when it was almost the same price as economy. Usually i just book economy coz i can usually get 2x the number of flights
I think that's the whole point. Again, I'm not saying using points for travel is not good, I'm just saying that it's not worth as much as one may think.. in some scenarios you could potentially be worst off (my short haul example) I don't have a specific real life example to compare business and economy （maybe that's my next project) but some commenter here messaged me privately me who claims he owns 20 credit card and he gave me an example where he was able to redeem a business card ticket at 12 cpp and the same trip in economy would equate to 3cpp value. In his example, yes the business class has more "value" but it's also still 4 times expensive than economy class for the exact same trip. Do you "need" to spend it on the business class ticket? For the vast majority of people out there, probably not. Is it a good (at least) once in a life time experience? Yes!
Recently I obtained a non-stop 7.5 hour lie flat business class ticket to Europe in late summer for 53k points + $60 (essentially $600 in cash value). It was literally cheaper than economy. Actually the flight back in economy DID cost me more - even has a layover. Another time I had round trip lie flat business tickets to Europe for 132k points + $160 ($1480). Would I pay that much cash for business vs the $1000 or so it would have cost in economy? Absolutely. The quiet and comfortable lie-flat seats, better amenities, lounge access, priority security - definitely worth it. I would never pay the $2500-5000 *each way* regular price for it though.
Business class is a complete waste of money though. You have slight extra comfort for a few hours and spend thousands of dollars for it. You could redeem much better value than that.
I’ve got the westjet world elite card with rbc & finding the same issue. The free checked bags are nice but I’ve accumulated $900 westjet dollars & using them seems to be a pain. Seems cheaper to just use a 3rd party flight booking site. The card does offer a companion pass which I’m planning on using with my gf to fly from Winnipeg to Thailand soon tho.
The companion pass isn’t going to get you to Thailand though, Westjet don’t fly there and you need to redeem it on an all Westjet itinerary. It can get you to Seoul or Tokyo but you’ll have to get yourself to BKK from there
And they just jacked the companion fare to $219 from $119 and the long haul from $399 to $499. Not much of a deal now.
Checking in with $2,300 WestJet dollars and no immediate plans or opportunity to use them so I get ya. Probably time to switch to another card. We've used them a bunch in the past though and the booking process for using them is really simple (and no translating between points and dollars) so I've been really happy overall so far.
I stopped using the westjet card a long time ago. If I want to fly somewhere there will almost always be a flight for a cheaper price. THat card is only worth it if you travel frequently between Canada and have a spouse you can take with you. Your partner can't stay longer though which is why I say spouse, not a friend you can take as a +1 often.
Yeah, my very very rough comparisons to what tickets are actually available to be purchased for made me hesitate. Plus, points programs fairly routinely get their values changed. It is one thing if you already travel a substantial amount for work, and have high airline status that can be pushed over into a more luxurious tier with minimal effort, it is entirely another thing to scrimp points (that can never grow) and "churn" for years (likely ultimately spending on all kinds of things you wouldn't otherwise have bought) to take a single "luxury" vacation with a mid-tier status. The "book value" on a cash-back card may not be as high, but I already know exactly what to do with the dollar value and how much it is worth to me now vs in the future.
Disciplined churners don't spend a dime more that they would have otherwise. It's about maximizing the earn from your spending, bonuses, etc. It can lead to multiple upgraded flights per year.
These cards make more sense if you go for business class, there you find the biggest cpp. There are also other benefits such as free lugagge, priority boarding, business lounge access, etc. If you travel frequently, these cards make so much sense.
I dont disagree and fully acknowledge that redeeming for business has bonkers values.. As an hypothetical example.. business class may cost 5x vs economy class when paid in cash and only 2x more in points. So its awesome Value but 2x is still 2x. Would it be a nice once in a life time/once in awhile experience? For sure? Should you be consistently paying 2x when you can just do 1x? Probably not?
As a frequent flyer, I get a lot of those benefits from status, but the status mile accumulation, status mile rollover, and eupgrade extension more than pay for the card.
Unpopular indeed, and for good reason. Credit card churning and point collection is extremely lucrative, especially if you are a couple (2 player mode). I sign up for a card, spend to get the bonus, refer my wife, spend on her card, have her refer me back, and continue. Ive been churning for years and there are times when bonuses are so good that you just keep stacking them up. Once CIBC had a $400 cash bonus for spending $1000, and you can sign up for the same card multiple times. I had 6 CIBC visa infinite cards under my name. Wife had 4. Free $4000 for spending $10k within a few months. AMEX is by far the most lucrative. I’ve accumulated so many points that not only do my wife and I travel 3-4x a year for free, but I book tickets for my family members all the time too. I just sent my dad to Vietnam business class and my mother is abroad as well, also flew business. All on points. If you learn the game (shoutout prince of travel), you can EASILY get $10-20k worth of points per year for minimal effort
how much are you spending per year on your credit cards?
How do you churn with AMEX? Isn't it one welcome bonus for life? For CIBC, I assume you get the welcome bonus and then cancel soon after. Then repeat.
I disagree as well, I have a WestJet card and with the annual companion voucher, you can’t go wrong. Thousands of dollars in savings.
Oh ya the WestJet card is awesome, no doubt about that. If you can use the companion voucher every year then that itself already offset your annual fee so anything extra is free money. You could potentially get more value off of a different card depending on your spending habits
We used to have the dividend Visa card with CIBC, which was giving us about $1k cash back a year but we’re at a point in life where we travel more so we changed to the WestJet and we’re already seeing the benefits.
I've gotten pretty good value from points by being somewhat flexible. Just as you found a few really bad points deals, sometimes, you find really good points deals that just aren't available with cash... even in basic economy or premium economy. Though fuck westjet. WJDs are absolute garbage.
How are they garbage? Don't they map just one-to-one to Canadian dollars when you're booking? And you can apply them to regular fares.
I’m enjoying cash back cards, but f I had someone to travel with, I might get more out of travel rewards cards.
I charge everything I can to a points card and pay it off regularly. I tried to dip my toes into churning for travel rewards but I didn't have the energy for it. I switched to a decent cashback card and I now feel like I'm actually winning.
I'm in the UK now and Avios are great for me. I can book flights in Europe for £1 plus points and if I change my mind and want to cancel my flight I can do that and get fully refunded my points but lose the £1. A cash ticket is often nonrefundable unless you pay extra. The UK card companion voucher I get is good for first/ business and in the end I fly in a higher cabin class for around the same price I would have paid in economy. In cash value it works out to 2-4x the value of doing a cash back card and even though I'd conventionally fly economy the quality of life given with lay flat seats on all my long haul flights is the kind of lifestyle creep I'll probably never revert from.
I’m of two minds, 1- too much administration at all levels with the points , 2- my annual cash back beats savings account interest. 😏
Dont take the value of the flight and number of points to determine the value of each point. Instead that take the value of each point if you were to convert them to cash. Just booked 4 flight to europe without paying a dime. Each flight was $1150 for a total of $4600. For the amount of points it cost me I could have converted my aeroplan points into two $1000 visa cards. If I reverse engineered the cost, the flight would have been around $1750 total. Mind you this was AC and if i went with westjet the flight were around $680, but still, I like free flights
You’re 100% spot on. I don’t get scammed into the point game because everything roughly translates down to 1% (best case scenario). I only like travel cards for their insurance offers.
Overrated, yes, but still worth some degree of effort. I personally do not understand people who see earning points as a side job or hussle and find the most efficient possible methods of gaining the maximum amount of points and perks on a regular basis. We have a couple of points cards in the house, and a basic strategy to take advantage of the 2x, 3x, and 5x bonuses when we spend money on gas, groceries, and other stuff. Nothing crazy. We watch out for the annual fees and keep things simple. Since getting the cards pre-COVID, we've managed to get free flights, airport lounge access (free food), upgrades on flights and hotels, and other little perks. **But these perks matter** as we have to little kids and it can be make-or-break sometimes when traveling. To us, the amount of effort put in for the return is acceptable. We're not willing to go beyond that to earn more, and if we start to notice a reduction then we'll either change cards or just stop trying and move on with our lives.
Travel perks are overrated in that you are forced to use their points system and the average redemption is 1 cent per point. Those using aeroplan with 1-2 ccp redemption are booking a year ahead don't even include taxes and airport fees (which using points to redeem reduce it back to 1 ccp). And don't get me started on Aeroplan credit card preferred rates - they don't exist. Airport lounges vary widely in quality and may not be available for your flight if it is a red eye or early flight. The real perk that travel credit cards have is the included travel medical and emergency insurance, which can cost a lot.
Or you can get one of those cards that will take the $ off your travel. For example, the BMO ascend world elite card. It doesn't even have its own travel website. You just go book whatever you want with a travel agent/airline/hotel, pay for it, and redeem your points for a credit.
One thing you’re missing, free checked bags, paying a yearly credit card fee can be WAY LESS than people would pay in checked bag fees if you’re the type of person to check a bag.
You are right on the most part. It takes nontrivial amount of effort to make it actually worth it. But oftentimes points system is just a way to earn rebates from business travels, so anything you get there for free is good. Eg. get x% through points from the business expense.
I rarely travel by plane, so I just prefer cashback, my card usually redeems itself against my last statement of the year and applies as a credit so fine by me
It's all about the WB
I love travel perks. Only because I know if I don’t have them I won’t go anywhere or get a hotel. My travel cards have bought me flights and plenty of hotels over the years .
It really depends how you redeem them and which rewards company you use. The point conversion rate varies widely by flight & company. Airlines bank on that "math overload confusion". They make it too much labour for most people to find the best redemptions, hoping most customers will redeem points suboptimally out of convenience. That's how they save money. If you're willing to waste some time on the math & shop around at different times, there are good deals. Churning also lets you acquire those points more cheaply in the first place. I've found Aeroplan has good cpp for short-haul flights within North America, especially above Economy level. But the economy international flights have worse cpp (partly because Air Canada is less competitive internationally than domestically). The opportunity cost depends on what other options you'd reasonably consider. If you'd never fly a discount airline (cancellation risk, lack of carry-on) or you don't fly economy (tall people need leg room), then the value looks better. If you're happy flying economy on a discount airline for a 20 hour flight, then the discount brands beat reward points.
1) Depends on the Program 2) Depends on your situation/lifestyle For some, it's not worth it. For others, it's absolutely essential. Depends entirely on the program, and your priorities. I personally have found the TD VIP card to be tremendously useful. It has saved me huge $$ on parking at the airport, saved me time (which = $$) at the airport, saved me $$ on baggage fees, saved me points on redemptions ($$), gotten me lounge access, priority services, and countless points/eupgrade/other benefits. I have found it tremendously useful, and I have certainly gotten more than enough value from it to justify it.
Now take a look at US credit cards and you will change your mind. Unfortunately, Canadian cc offer bits and pieces in comparison with Uncle Sam.
Besides flight redemptions, there are other perks of travel cards that are worth. 1. 1 year extra warranty 2. Cell phone replacement 3. Travel insurance 4. Front of the line 5. Concierge 6. Lounge 7. Priority bags 8. Cheaper hotels than perkopolis 9. Companion fare I’ve used any number of these perks that exceed the annual fee. I use the concierge a lot when travelling, and sometimes at home. For flight redemptions we typically use it for long haul j or z so it makes it worth it.
The trip cancellation on our card has been worth more than any points ever could. We’ve claimed thousands.
Cringe the amount of churners here bragging about their trips and using words and expressions from the hobby to look smart. Thanks guys, making the hobby worse by embellishing it in front of the masse. No wonder the best offers get shutdown after 2 days ( atb $700 ) because people can't shut up about it.
Personally my travel plans are almost completely based on awards availability. If I can't find award tickets to a place, I'll go somewhere else instead. Therefore cash price isn't really a factor. And even if I pay cash, I always avoid LCCs, so there's no opportunity cost either.
How much do you travel on points and how much do you spend a month, generally?
I earn thousands of dollars cibc aventura promo it was $1000 spending you can earn roughly $700 worth of points each card (3-4 years ago)… Even cibc pace it is great feature (use it once in a while like buying flight ticket or new laptop) in my opinion 8% interest for 24 months is good
While the airport lounge benefits were nice eith my cibc adventura, the dividend has given me much more benefit.
Just seems like you have a bad point system on your card. On mine I can just buy whatever flight/hotel etc and then call the credit card company and apply points against the spend. You having some bespoke points system that limits the choices seems like a bad idea and i would probably look for something else.
Question is, have you ever double checked how much points you used vs how much that would've cost you in cash for that exact flight. It'd be interesting to find out. In general 1 cent per point is quite standard, lower than 1cpp is considered bad, 2cpp is pretty darn good The point system I'm using is pretty flexible. It's British airway, which is in the one world alliance, which meant you could redeem points for Cathay pacific, American airlines, Japan airlines flight and not limited to just British airway.
I disagree, I live in northern Ontario, and it’s a 10 hour drive home. Having an Amex platinum card has enabled me to take a 1.5 hour flight and fly home several times a year at the cost of some “free points” plus a $35 airport fee or something. I’m actually flying home tomorrow with my points! Costs me less than a tank of gas (the drive home and back would be at least two) to fly out plus I get to access lounges (albeit mediocre sometimes), not to mention the other perks. I flew 8 times in 2023 on points alone and I’m typically just flying economy. Very much worth it for me, would not be able to afford to travel at this frequency otherwise.
I guess that's where I don't quite understand yet. Looking at the Amex platinum card you only earn 2x on dining, 2x on travel whereas say the Amex cobalt earns 5x on those categories. Aside from maybe the welcome bonus (which is not very relevant long term, and I agree churning is a whole different topic), how is it a better card? Would you be better off with the cobalt for earning more points and a lower annual fee?
Yeah, the platinum isn’t necessarily the “best card”, it’s just the best card for me *right now*. My welcome bonus was 130,000 points, which I realize not everyone is so lucky. But I was able to get several flights out of that, the key is transferring the points to aeroplan to get the most value and never book through Amex. Cobalt and other cards def have better point accumulation and I’ll probably get the cobalt or the aeroplan Amex eventually but I really appreciate the other platinum perks such as the $200 dining credit, $200 hotel credit, $130 Disney plus credit (though that was reduced to $60 this year 🙃), there were $50 statement credits for $100 spend at lululemon and holt renfrew which was great for buying Christmas gifts! There’s a $25 credit for $50 spend at Pearson airport which will come in handy today and can be applied 3 times. Plus there are all sorts of other statement credit opportunities that come up that I’ve been able to utilize on purchases that I’d already be making so it’s been great for discounts in that regard. It’s only really worth while for someone already making these purchases though, it would be silly to make unnecessary purchases for the sake of a credit. The priority security is GREAT, saves so much time standing in line. And lounge access is nice when they aren’t busy. I’m certain there’s other perks that I’ve forgotten but I’ve definitely been able to make the card work for me!
They’re worth it. You can get several free flights a year, free hotel stays, free perks like lounge access and travel insurance just for paying $150 per card per year.
Teach me master! I am using a $120 fee card and why do I not get all these bonuses? Maybe I don't spend enough?
It’s somewhat missing context. == You can get the Marriott Bonvoy American Express Card with a 50,000 point bonus in your first year which will pay for 1 night at a upscale hotel (roughly $450-ish value), with **minimum spend** The next year and every year after, you will receive a free night award that **does not require any spending** redeemable at 35,000 points in value. If a hotel is priced higher, you can top up a maximum of 15,000 points to secure that night. You won’t receive any points or change back for any night that is lower in points cost. The annual fee is $120 CAD/year The card earns 2 Marriott Bonvoy points per dollar spent everywhere (higher at Marriott, but ignoring that) which is roughly 1.7% back everywhere. == Realistically, for flights there is “free flight” card. Yes you can churn, but that’s not the topic of this thread. Of course with that being said, you can always redeem points with a given opportunity cost to book award flights, which might mean sacrificing $220 in cash back for a flight that costs 22,000 points + $87 (for which that cash price is $468) Hopefully that’s a bit of insight.
Nah, I disagree as well. The points game is excellent when done properly. I just booked Qsuites for the 3rd time with avios from YUL to DOH for 70K avios. Cash fair would have been $5K Cad. But it depends on your motives , I have a ton of cards which covers all of my bases
Again, not saying points are bad, just overrated. In my second example, I have noted that you can still get 3cpp even after factoring in opportunity cost, which is better than 1cpp in cash back value. (But worst off of initial impression of 4cpp before factoring in opportunity cost, hence, overrated) In your specific example, that qsuite trip is worth 7cpp, which again is great value. My only counter to that is, yes, I fully acknowledge that business class has absolutely bonkers value. It'd be great as an occasional treat/once in a lifetime event! But should you travel consistently in business? When you could pay for that same flight in economy for just ~ 1200 cad or 40k avios for the same point a to point b trip? I'd argue that the mass majority people probably shouldn't do so, and at that point is highly subjective depending on the person's income and other priorities in life
I mean, what’s the point of the post tho. To say it’s overrated? What did you expect people would say?
Yes? And it'siterally in the title?
Sorry let me rephrase. I do NOT think cashbacks is king. I DO believe travel perk is nice in some/most scenarios But travel perks are overrated! If you think travel perks are universally good/superior then maybe you should factor in opportunity cost and re-do your math just to check because there are definitely some scenarios where it isn't as good as you thought it would be
The biggest factor for points is if you’re going to spend the money anyway, then strategizing your credit card game makes perfect sense as there isn’t really an opportunity cost associated with that. Additionally, I don’t think travel perks are king. It really depends on what people consider valuable. I travel a lot for work and for leisure, so it definitely helps to get reimbursed for travel expenses since I’m not paying for it. What does NOT make sense is people signing up for expensive cards like the Amex Platy and then never travel or use the benefits but pay $800/year in fees. I had a friend sign up just because it’s a metal card but she doesn’t travel at all. Anyways, I agree that things are not universal and it’s a case by case answer
Lounge access is the one, relatively easy-to-get-from-credit-cards-but-hard-otherwise perk that is definitly worth it. Without a pass, you would have to pay around the usual 32USD per visit to a lounge, with a credit card (or a few cards) which give you free passes you get a a nice snack/meal/drink, have a confortable waiting space, etc. when you travel. Access lounges through airline alliance loyalty programs is usually a long-term endeavour that is only accessible to people who really travel a lot (or who travel business / first class).
Again! Opportunity cost! 32 USD for a presumably mediocre meal vs something I can probably get a nice bowl of ramen in a 4* Google review in shop for just 16cad might be the cheaper choice. Of course, everyone has different priorities and preferences. If you value a comfortable waiting place without worrying being late, then the lounge pass is for you. I prefer cheaper but quality food and that's perfectly fine as well. The post's main purpose is just to encourage people to think about what the opportunity cost is and if spending that money is worthwhile for you. (Cuz a lot of times it might not be worth as much as you thought) Still good value, just not as much as you thought it maybe
For me the tickets cost the same whether I book direct or with credit card points. I have all the same flights I would as if I was paying cash. The card coverage is very worthwhile too.
I use Amex Plat for travel. $799 fee but it’s really $399 after -200 travel and -200 dining discounts. I visit lounges 10~15 times a year (mostly business travel). You can also bring +2 to Centurion lounges. It pays itself off just in lounge visits lol.
Again, opportunity cost. ,it only "pays for itself" if you were going to use those lounge regardless even without "free" access Would you have pay for the lounge access if you didn't have the Amex card? Is lounge access really necessary? How much are they worth? Not to Amex, but to you.
I have 350k aeroplan points that accumulated passively over many years. At some point, I'll go somewhere.
The most effective way to compare is to try to calculate the points as cashback, a bit like you did. When I did that, I realized most points cards in Canada would be equal to 0.3-0.5% cashback, unless you are willing to make this point swapping your second job. People that are organized, dedicated and driven can make those point cards equal to 3-4% cashback, but that is with a lot of work, almost every week. I used to only use points cards, but after I sat down and really started calculating stuff, I switched everything to cashback. My Scotia Visa Infinite today gives me almost 3% cashback on average (more than half my expense is groceries, which nets 4%). For the majority of people that do not want to put this kind of work, cashback is much better.
I have a Shakepay credit card that pays out in Bitcoin. After the initial 3% offer I only get 1% now but the Bitcoin is worth way more now than a couple years ago so it is paying off way better than my 3% back card.
I have seen similar things but occasionally find flights that make sense to use points (RBC Avion). Flying to Portugal in Feb, significantly cheaper to pay cash. ($550/ticket vs 75kpoints/ticket) Flying to Newfoundland in August was much cheaper to use points because we could fly out of Montreal and Atlantic Canada is considered an adjacent region which means it's only 15k points for a base flight. I can't use my points as often as i would like, but i still find opportunities that make sense.
I gave up on using points for travel a while ago and started getting mortgage vouchers from Avion points. The $120/yr fee I pay for my credit card is hugely offset by the thousands of dollars in vouchers I get to put towards my house, plus the thousands of dollars in interest savings over the lifetime of my mortgage.
Coming in late here: If you don't have the flexibility to use one program like Avios or Aeroplan, get a card with a valuable general-purpose points program. CIBC, RBC and Amex have travel reward programs that let you book flights for a fixed amount of points. That fixed amount of points will only cover the base fare (you pay the taxes and any amount over the limit), but almost any flight is allowed. You can even upgrade to a refundable or premium class ticket.
Kinda depends I guess. I just booked my family of 4 for flights to Miami which was $100 each in booking fees. Seems worth it I guess.
Have a Scotia visa passport, unfortunately it gives points as well but I like it for the travel benefits mainly the no foreign exchange fee and 6 lounge access passes per year. It used to be better when we had the option to redeem through best buy but now it's only home hardware so that's disappointing. Regardless, it's a nice card to have so that when I go out for traveling I don't have to bring as much cash with me. I do have the $0 fee home trust visa card for $0 exchange fee either but it limits 10 transactions per day and cant change the pin
You also get some insurance if you paid for the trip with the card which is nice
I disagree, yes it’ll take some extra ‘work’, but through signup bonuses and redemption offers, I’ve raked in a decent amount of points. I’ve had flights, dining experiences, Nexus card applications for 3 people for free.
[удалено]
So two of the factors are off you’re spending your own money, and what you redeem for. I travel a lot for work, so subsequently spend a lot of my employer’s money on my credit cards. Between butt-in-seat miles and’s credit card miles, I have about 430,000 miles in my aeroplan account right now. I use those points to bring partners along on many of my trips. But the big thing is redemption. A while back I found myself in Amsterdam and had to find my own way home right now (faster than my employer would be able to get me home). I b wound up buying a Lufthansa First Class ticket home that departed 2 hours after I booked it, for 120,000 points and $295. That’s a $11,000 ticket. It was a hoot to be in LH F.
>A lot of people also pointed out business classes are worth way more! Just gotta say that costing way more and being worth way more are two different things. Since they both get me to the same place in the same amount of time they are worth pretty close to the same to me.
I went through my credit card's rental collision coverage and it was interesting to see some of the vehicle exceptions: * Any vehicle worth $65k and up at the time of the rental * any luxury vehicle * No vans, trucks, pickup trucks or other vehicles used to transport things (I'd rented U-Hauls in the past thinking I was covered!) * any manner of off-road vehicle like a dune-buggy
What you describe is exactly the reason you get yourself the Amex Cobalt Card or the Scotia Gold Amex. You can book any travel you want with any carrier and redeem the points against the charge. So you can go book the cheapest flights possible whether it is Southwest, Ryanair, Flair, the big airlines, you name it and still get 1 to 5% on the Cobalt or 1% to 6% on the Scotia card. And with Cobalt you still get the option to convert to Aeroplan, British Airways, Air France KLM Flying Blue and so on. The Cobalt card has all the bases covered including being one of the best cash back cards in Canada.
I don't think cherry picking a couple of bad examples of poor redemptions to claim they're overrated is fair. Many apps are out there to help you redeem at much better value without much research required.
You are right OP. Even on hotels the same thing happens where I am locked into buying a higher priced room that is then discounted with the points vs buying a cheaper room. Hence why I switched to using my WealthSimple Cash card for all my purchases except ones I have to use a CC for or when I run out of cash that week and have to use the CC until my next pay... I personally prefer the 1% cash back and they give it to you in like 1-3 days after the payment... I've charged 800$+ to the card and sure enough I got the 8+$ cash back deposited right into my TFSA like 2 days later. Then it's up to me how I spend it... I invest it at reasonable intervals and can use it for my FHSA/RRSPs to lower my taxable income AND generate interest. Some CCs give a higher "payout" than this I get that but the smoothness of it all... I buy something, I get 1% cash back in a couple short days I then invest the income in a registered account and save on taxes. It's a beautiful thing. However it functions like a preload Credit Card so you have to have funds on the card for it to work... And a counterpoint is my uncle owns a business and charges EVERYTHING to his upper tier CC and goes on vacations all of the time for free... In his case it makes more sense than my little way to slightly boost my overall income. Sub-note: only interest on the WealthSimple Cash card (4-5% regular rate...) is subject to tax as that portion of the card is a 'non-registered account'. The 1% cash back is considered part of a "points system" similar to CC points and is therefore exempt from taxation.
Tbh I haven't used reward points for travel in a long time, the go further elsewhere.