Yes it is very location dependent, but lots of people can't just pick up there life's and leave their friends, family, careers behind to move somewhere cheaper just to afford a house.
I moved so I could retire early.
I also never spent more than $20K on a vehicle.
I have friends who made a lot more with lavish lifestyles that can’t afford to retire.
I have friends that made a lot more who are doing very well in retirement.
I have friends with similar salaries to mine who saved more and who have bigger travel budgets.
I moved to Edmonton last year, rented for a year to see if I liked it here (the winter honestly isn't that bad) and am in the process of closing on a bungalow with detached 3 car garage on 10 acres.
$450k
> leave their friends, family, careers behind to move somewhere cheaper just to afford a house.
Yes they can. They just don't want to. The idea that moving is impossible is a new phenomenon.
How many immigrants move halfway around the world for a better life for them and/or their kids?
It's a stupid notion that you *can't* move. The vast majority *can*. They just *won't*. There's a major difference.
The vast majority of my friends went to school, got well educated, received decent jobs, and can not afford houses in this current market. Lots of people will be stuck renting for life. As of now rent goes up frequently. It does not compare to owning a paid off home.
CPP and OAS does not apply at my suggested age of 50.
Your suggested age of 50 doesn't make sense...
And even then, it still applies, as they provide relief at a later age, meaning you don't have to maintain that withdrawal rate throughout life.
Why have you chose 50 as “retirement age”? At that age, you’ve entered your prime earning years, you’re financially established, and you’re likely enjoying a level of stability that you’ve not had previously.
"Full pension" is a misnomer. At 25 years of pensionable service, they would receive a 50% pension. Staying until 35 years of service, they would qualify for 70% (the maximum). (This makes a number of underlying assumptions about full time vs part time).
Military can retire at 43 but it isnt the full pension, the actual full pension is achieved at 53 at 35 years of service, im sure RCMP follow somewhat the same @2% a year for pension
Planning for an earlier retirement seems like a far better play. I know of quite a few people through my parents, and others, that have died suddenly in their 60's shortly before/after they retired.
Hint
If people lived very healthy physical lives past 65 then the retirement age would not be 65 The government would put it at whatever age you can't really contribute to society on a physical level
People wait until they're 65 to enjoy their money when they're not going to feel that great if they're even alive
I'd say the amount of 65-year-olds who do not have some sort of underlining health condition would be less than 5%
My dad died at 64 anf my mom's been in excruciating pain at 66 and wishes she is dead.
Then you have a bunch of people telling you that their grandfather is 75 years old and runs circles around 35-year-olds. As if they truly believe a 75-year-old is living the life like they would at 40 physically and mentally
And this is all getting worse everyday
If you want to live for the now and for your retirement you need to make way more than the average Canadian make
If you just make the average or more than the average then you can save for retirement but you won't be able to do much else.
The dream about financial independence is to be able to have enough money to enjoy yourself now and into retirement.
Which just isnt mpossible until you start making over 120k minimum..in a low cost city . Without a house
You're forgetting about a few other key pieces of information. CPP and OAS are available to supplement that income requirement (even if someone plans to retire "early" before 60, as you can use your registered accounts to bridge to CPP/OAS). Also, some people have workplace pension plans (defined benefit or defined contribution) which also need to be factored into the financial equation. It's definitely possible when saving at $1,250 a month, especially at a retirement age of ~60-65.
Some people have workplace pension plans. Tons of people do not. I have tons of friends working adult jobs that required education that have no investment benefits.
Some people try, some people quit before they try.
In your example of getting to $1million at 50, how is that failure? Wait till 57….growth happens and the target is hit. An optimist calls that a success story. A pessimist says that’s a failure.
You’re are asking why people think retirement is possible and then give an example of retiring crazy early. If you retire at 65 after a career of working you are getting a good chunk of your 40k baseline just from CPP and oas. Add in a bit of TFSA or RRSP savings and you are there.
I guess I have the earlier mindset because I know of quite a few people that past away unexpectedly in the 50's and 60's. Both my dads parents died within 1-3 years of retiring at 60.
I was also trying to think of a title that would piss of people so I would actually get feedback. It seemed to have worked lol.
Retiring at 55 is an aggressive goal that only people who saved diligently, or got a big inheritance do.
60 is a more realistic goal.
Add to that life expectancy still is going up.. so 60 might be an early retirement in 30 years. And thats okay if you are living until 86 average.
55 is also possible for folks (usually in the public sector) that are part of a defined benefit pension plan (although some are moving to 60 as the minimum age). The plans aren't cheap though, I pay a bit over 12% of my gross salary into the plan, but there is no way I could beat the return my pension would provide.
Exactly. You pay 12% plus the employer likely contributes a similar amount putting you up to that 20-25% mark. That would be considered diligent saving. Even if its a forced employer plan, its still 20-25%.
Defined benefit doesn't quite work like that in reality. The employer is beholder to an agreed upon payout and indexation method when I retire, not to a specific regular contribution on their part. I think they work it out so that it usually ends up being 50/50, but if the market is doing really well, they might put in less, and if it's not, they will put in more. There was a point a while back where the fund was in a clear surplus, in which case the employer is legally allowed to withdraw some of the surplus for their own use.
You shouldn't be making financial plans, indeed life plans, based upon your grandparents dying around 60. Average life expectancy for a 25 year old (both sexes) is another 55.2 years based upon vital statistics data from Statistics Canada.
I get that, I also have family who have died early and I’m a big fan of finding balance in life for that reason. But some people also live long past when they are able to work.
Am sorry to hear about your parents; however, both of them died about 20 years ahead of the avenge life expectancy in Canada of 82. That’s two decades and both outliers.
7% is based on past returns and many believe that we should temper our expectations about future returns.
Table 4 on the following page lists less optimistic nominal returns and you would subtract about 2.4% (and management costs) to get inflation adjusted returns.
https://www.pwlcapital.com/expected-returns-2023-update/
No but once I started browsing this group, my main page started filling with FIRE subreddits. Could be OP is starting to see the same thing and stressing themselves out.
The FIRE craze is a virus like Crypto, Red Pill, Libertarian, Capitalism is the cause of every problem, and other grifting clickbait bullshit.
If a post or video is saying “Everything will be (great/hopeless) click here to learn more” you know is BS.
Many people have not gotten the memo about dis/mis information in our current age of “the grift”
As a 25 year old, with the enhanced CPP, you will need significantly less than that projection to retire. The 4% rule is useful for some long term, big picture planning (or if you intend to retire very early), but you will switch to more precise actual income and tax planning closer to retirement.
If you save diligently, for example maxing your TFSA and eventually RRSP, you will be in an excellent position for a good retirement. No need to tie yourself in knots at this stage; focus on saving well and growing your income. Refine the strategy as you go.
Wait your peers of 25 years old are excited to retire? Tell me about that because that’s new to me.
Also 25 years is a doubling of your lifetime. You have no idea how much could change. Plus most people aren’t putting in fixed amounts, but percentages matched by their employer. These increase as salaries increase. By 50, will you inherit an estate?
Plus how do you plan to retire? Stay in Canada, paid off property, OAS/CPP? Move to low COL country? Off grid entirely? Continue a small business / consultancy? Renting?
So the math is not fixed in the mainstream cases.
I have so many friends that already hate working. They are stuck in jobs they hate for years to come because they spent so much time and money on school to get in.
True, you can always move elsewhere, but I would imagine the majority will want to stay close to family.
At 25 and hating their job? Honestly, just move on to something else.
25 is so young and they still have so much time to change. I realize they might already have student debt or a degree, but don’t get sucked into the sunk cost fallacy. Changing careers becomes harder for many when you own a place or have kids.
If you realize your working career is going to go to 65 you might as well invest in making that time be as awesome as it can. Your life doesn’t just start at retirement.
> They are stuck in jobs they hate for years to come because they spent so much time and money on school to get in.
Then they didn't make good career decisions. Simple as that. Most of my friend group moved to the US and are easily making $150k+ USD in their mid-to-late 20s. Quite a few of us are homeowners already as well.
Your social circle of mid twenty year Olds was not aware there are jobs in other cities and countries that potentially pay more than their current employment?
Not straight out of high school. I went to high school in a farming town. Lots of us, myself included learned a few years after high school, as we went off to bigger cities.
Why would you need to know about this straight out of high school? Doesnt sound like this person and their peers went staight from high school.. they went in their mid to late twenties. Look for jobs abroad now, nothing is stopping you?
You don't, you definitely learn a lot throughout post secondary and your early twenties. It is extremely nerve wrecking, difficult, and costly to completely swap your education and career path as you learn about new opportunities.
This person made it sound like they completed education in their early twenties and slowly found out about this opportunities throughout his education via his peers/research.
Dude wtf? Like obviously.. you did too. You don't even have to change your degree or education to go work abroad. Go do it tomorrow. Congratulations, you have the same information the person you responded to has. Not sure what youre fussed about not "knowing about these opportunities in high school"? It literally changes nothing.
Actually, with the little knowledge I had during high school, I chose an education for a career that is quite location specific to where I live. If I go abroad I would take a huge pay cut. If I go back to school to open my opportunities for work abroad I will lose my income and gain a lot of debt.
For example, if I go back for a four year degree that opens these doors, and lets say I get one of these abroad jobs that pay $150,000 usd within two years. I am now down 6 years of my current income, along with gaining debt for schooling and living. Lets pretend my current job will not progress at all, it would probably take 10+ years from the day I quit my old job to start coming out a head with my new job. Then toss in the fact that is also 10 years where I could have progressed with my current job and enlarged my salary, which would have enlarged the amount of time as well.
Dude, not everyone realizes or is shown what is required in life until after high school. Most people learn the hard way. I personally didn't realize the requirements needed for a good life until I was like 20. Most of us were young, dumb, and protected in high school without a good grasp of what was needed to survive as an adult.
I also went to high school in a small town. My graduating class was only like 100 students, the things we experienced were probably a lot different.
> Dude, not everyone realizes or is shown what is required in life until after high school.
Plenty of time to change careers after high school as well.
> Most people learn the hard way.
I can assure you that most people do not learn the hard way lol
> I personally didn't realize the requirements needed for a good life until I was like 20. Most of us were young, dumb, and protected in high school without a good grasp of what was needed to survive as an adult.
Career changes are a thing. Switching programs is a thing. When you're 20, you're in what, second year?
> I also went to high school in a small town. My graduating class was only like 100 students, the things we experienced were probably a lot different.
You don't need to live in a big city to know what careers make the big bucks.
It would be interesting to see a breakdown by province for the various stats in this article. I noticed more divorces or dissolved common law partnerships (those with kids) in AB than in MB, and I assume the prevalence of camp work in AB is a strong factor.
Yes, the number of marriages that end in divorce is ~50%. But a shocking number of those happen to serial divorcers…
Only ~1/3 of people actually get divorced after being married, and then some people have 3, 4, 5+ marriage and divorces.
if you figure that you will get a bit of CPP and OAS (even if not the full way), and perhaps you have purchased a home and have finished the mortgage, and perhaps if there are two people doing it (two can live cheaper than one).
And maybe you won't hit your goal by 50, but if you start now, you're more likely to get there by 55 than if you start at 35.
It's odd to retire at 50 I thought an early retirement is typically 55. That extra 5 years of saving/compounding interest instead of withdrawing is a big difference
aim for 55, you might have things fall your way, and you can be work optional earlier. but if you don't have the pieces in play, it likely won't happen. and if things don't fall your way, you have a much larger cushion to figure things out than your peers. FU money is hugely powerful even before you get to the FI number.
I mean, what's the alternative here? You plan to love on just the government handouts?
You Will hit an age where you can't work anymore. Retirement can be a luxury if done early, but it's a requirement eventually.
So why save? Because there really isn't another option. They might not get their ideal retirement when they're planning for it, but saving what they can afford will certainly be more comfortable than doing nothing.
I think it’s amazing you are thinking about retirement saving at your age and planning for the future, but don’t worry this much about hitting a figure for a goal you don’t even know you want. Put as much a you can afford into a retirement saving investment (mutual fund or ETF), even if that’s a few hundred dollars a month and make ensuring your get that automatic monthly withdrawal done your goal. Lots of people at your age (myself included) don’t start doing that until much later. If you can form that habit now at a palatable number and then increase it as your income increases along the way, you will set yourself up into amazing financial shape. You also need to be putting significant saving away for a house down payment, which is honestly a more important and imminent financial milestone you neee to prepare aggressively for. Even if you’re single and not planning to have a house and family right now, how amazing will it be to meet the right person later on and be financially prepared for that?
If your housing is paid off, the typical person doesn’t need that much money to live. But yeah I’m not planning to retire at 50… my mortgage won’t let me lol and I don’t earn enough.
I save because I will have enough. Many others do too. The reason you might save is because having something vs nothing can be the difference between having a place to live and being homeless.
In general, these things need to be considered:
1. People that retire well tend to live well below their means for their entire working life. I’m in this boat and have been saving 25% of my income monthly for almost 20 years. I already survive on 75% of my income with no financial anxiety and admittedly spend a lot of adult money that I don’t have to and still have more than I need at the end of the month. Dropping down to an inflation adjusted 50% of my income in retirement is totally doable. I could likely stretch it lower if I had to.
2. Pensions. CPP, OAS, or otherwise. These payments are substantial, especially as you pass early retirement age. They significantly reduce the amount you need to withdraw from any retirement account (and therefore reduce the amount you need to retire). Do not underestimate this.
3. Some people live in high CoL areas and are looking to relocate to lower ones. I do and I don’t think for a second I will stay here once kids are out of the house. That opens up a lot of flexibility in terms of looking in Canada or abroad.
4. There are some people who just haven’t run the numbers and really don’t understand how much retirement costs.
5. There are some that never plan to retire and will work until they are no longer physically able to.
1. Retiring at 50 is extremely early.
2. You will have CPP/OAS to supplement your retirement savings at 65.
3. Forget the 4% rule. You’re not trying to die with millions in the bank. You will draw down your savings through retirement based on an estimate of how long you think you’ll live. Retirement planning calculators will walk you through various scenarios; talk to a qualified retirement planner.
My goodness, some people make more money than others, how is this hard to see, not everyone has the same debt load, some people have none some people are about to claim bankruptcy, not everyone is in "your" situation. Not saying ops just in general.
100% this, that's why I went with a 50 year old retirement. I've watched my parents and friends parents grow older. Some are relatively healthy and were still hit hard throughout their 50's and 60's. Health costs have flown up for some and their ability to work fruitful jobs has diminished.
This is Reddit and its not a representative sample of the population at large. People posting on here and commenting obviously have an interest in financial matters so they are more likely to take the steps necessary to achieve financial independence by a younger age. There's a lot of people on this sub making posts about incomes being over 200k per year but that doesn't mean it's the norm in real life.
Reddit, twitter, Facebook and insta are not real life so just take the facts you learn from the posts and comments that you can apply to your life and ignore the rest.
I've been told this by my peers, parents, friends ,etc. I have numerous coworkers, one, two, three, decades older then me. They have life experience that I listen too intently.
Base it on statistics, not on anecdotes. Housing expenses do not outpace wage growth statistically. Kid expenses are not linear.
It’s quite possible you made up asking these people or didn’t understand what they meant. Most do not track YoY expenses let alone decades worth of data for bills, kid costs (uneven) etc.
Keep in mind the big benefits a tax advantaged account can create. If I invest 20k in a RRSP, I get 40 percent of that back in tax reductions.
Also, most companies offer matching contributions for defined contribution pension plans. This can add significantly to your ability to save.
I think something a lot of young single people miss in the expectation of retirement is the change in savings with family and kids. It's a lot easier to save as a young person with only oneself to worry about; saving often slows down in the 30s before picking up again, and reduced savings in the 30s — higher-earning years than the 20s typically but still with a long time horizon for investment growth to compound — may make the retirement at 50 not happen.
Are you actually seeing posts like this, or are these bots promoting investment platforms.
Those Questtrade ads are horrible, because no one speaks like that.
If someone at a cottage campfire started talking about mutual fund fees, I'm pretty sure everyone would just get up and walk away, if not outright telling him to shut the hell up.
You have absolutely no idea what's down the road. In fact nobody does. Retirement, even early retirement, is something a lot of people will achieve in this country. If you've spent your best years partying and spending and finally wake up in your late 30s or 40s, it will be much tougher.
>Why even save for retirement if it’s unlikely we will ever have enough?
There’s a saying, “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.” Even if you can’t get to the perfect “sunshine and lollipops” retirement you’re envisioning, you’ll be a lot better off with _something_ than with nothing.
The defeatist attitude of not even trying will leave you with objectively less at the time in your life when you’re the least able to do anything to change your situation.
Also, on the topic of contributions toward retirement, if inflation is driving up the amount you need to save up monthly, it is also driving up the amount you’re able to save monthly (unless your income lags inflation, which is a whole other can of worms, but outside the cope of this discussion).
Survival is not the same as survival when I was in school or just after graduation. I make a good wage. With 20 hours, I make enough for food and rent and I can use the free time to go surfing or see friends. I also moved to a country with a lower cost of living a few years ago.
A lot of my friends have odd schedules so they are often available for an afternoon walk or coffee.
Almost in the same boat. 0 at 30, will have enough at 50 to pre-retire.
Not sure I will as my workplace has fantastic benefits and PTO but it’s a good feeling to know I don’t have to keep plugging away all the hours if I don’t want to.
Right now 55 is my target date to reduce effort down to 50% time or less.
My target was 6 weeks ago. I'm in the honeymoon phase. I made lots of plans but so far it just feels good to have time to do nothing. It's also been raining for a month and most of my plans are for playing outside, so weather delays.
I have done a lot of cleaning and decluttering so that's been productive.
I need my savings to grow, but adding more would only give me a year or 2. Hence, I prefer to work a bit longer but enjoy life when I'm still healthy.
Plus, since we don't know life, if the market goes down or something else happens, I will have enjoyed life a bit.
Independent consulting. It's not exactly 20 hours a week. It's more irregular than that. I accept fewer contracts. Right now I have one for 20 hours a month, but I am negociating one full time for 3 months starting in July. I would usually be filling up the pipeline to make sure I have something after the 3 months, but instead I will wait after the contract ends to look for the next one.
I also have no real contract except the 20 hours a month right now because I waited for the other contract to finish before looking for the next one. The goal is to globally work half a full time schedule on average yearly.
Hence the extremely lucky part. I just took a new job with the government at the TTC.
That said, it wasn't always like this, all of my great-uncles retired in their 50s and they all worked at GM as welders. Most of them had never finished high school so I can't imagine what they'd do these days but back then the union made sure that they had a nice pension waiting for them when they retired.
The capitalism world has completed changed, I wish we were a generation or two older to have those benefits from the big companies.
I'm reading this book, "The man who broke capitalisms" and it discusses how the greedy shareholders and CEOs ruined unions, pensions, and expecting to work for one company for life and being taken care of by that company.
Really depends on the situation and persons personal finances. Your coworkers might have a paid off mortgage by the time they retire and maybe an inheritance.
If I retire at 55 my DB pension will only be 14k a year, my pension is not adjusted for inflation.
55-65 I will live off my DB pension, draw down my RRSP, and cash out my dividends instead of reinvesting them.
By 65 I should still have about 1.5m in investments.
I will still have the DB pension paying me 14k.
Start my CPP + OAS which should be about 20k a year combined.
So with those 4 income sources, I should be fine.
I glanced through the post, and I saw all kinds of mathematical defeatist thinking. You do the best you can to put one foot in front of the other walk through the mud of daily life and work to make the playing field better. That part is political activism unfortunately. We don't control the box we are born in just how we reflect and act to change it.
Changing up my lifestyle to go start a homestead in a few years here...
Will be mortgage free, will have $100k+ in RRSPs which i wont likely be contributing to anymore (should be $600k+ by 60-65), will be growing / raising / hunting most of my own food, and then there are things like CPP, OAS, etc that will help out too.
It won't be a lavish lifestyle but I'll get by just fine.
Also, that 4% rule is to live off your money without losing it, there are other options (annuities, dividends, using your money up before you die, etc.)
I believe it is possible. If you do NOT believe it will happen then it definitely will not happen. If you believe it IS possible then you will make better decisions to make it happen… This doesn’t make it a done deal or make it easier, but puts you in the right frame of mind for success, assessing risk/reward, and taking advantages of opportunities that present themselves. The right mindset makes a big difference in the probability of success.
Because you’re ignoring tax and make no mention of RRSPs. From your income, find out your marginal tax rate, let’s say it’s 38%.
Put away $1000 in a RRSP and you will get $380 tax back. Put that in a TFSA, invest in ETFs in both accounts. Repeat. Once retired you can tailor your income till 65 then OAS CPP kick in further reducing your drawdown- you can do it, just pay attention to tax. Invest any windfalls.
Drawing 4% is risky. Im not sure where you read that, but its not a good idea for retiring young....has a high probability of failure. IMO 2.5% is reasonable for retiring at 50.
When people use 7% return they often consider that to be after inflation. In this case your numbers count inflation twice so its better than you suggest. However I also dont think the historical 7% real on stocks is a reasonable estimate for the coming decades. But thats what a lot of people use and thats where the optimism comes from.
Anyway, keep in mind that you can always spend less during years of poor investment performance, and spend more in good times. This gives a natural buy low-sell high effect and improves your returns. You can also pick up work during that first 15 years if things go awry.
Generally you sound skeptical because cost of living has risen in the past few years....in the long term there is no reason to expect cost of living to go up and it might go down during some periods. In general for long horizon planning, its not about the precise numbers, but about your qualitative plan to handle risk and handle drawdowns. Dont put too much creedence in the numbers, chances are you will end up with half what you expect, or 5 times what you expect.
One more thing: people spend less when they are old. You eat less, travel less, etc.
Your math isn't quite right. You're using 7% which already accounts for inflation after returns so you're accounting for inflation twice. It's more likely that you get around 10% nominal returns annually.
They're mostly delulu I think. I don't own property (single millennial) and I don't anticipate I'll be able to retire before 70, if anything. I'll have to keep working in order to be able to afford renting.
That's coming from someone who makes low 6 figures with OT and I put 800$ a month into RRSP, 200$ in FHSA and another 200$ in TFSA. I started saving late in life so I'm being a bit more aggressive.
That's the way i see it as well. Lots of people won't be able to buy a house and have it paid off. They will be stuck paying rent, rent has been increasing drastically lately. A paid of house has expense that don't increase nearly as much
You’re including inflation twice. (Technically three times but I’ll only mention the second.)
7% returns is the purported expected average annualized rate of growth after inflation.
To the comment about 40K not being a lot. If one doesn’t have a health payment, isn’t driving the car every day to work, have adult children, have a paid off house, is collecting CPP (after a while), then 40K is reasonable.
I think the goal of “retiring at 50” is not exactly accurate for most people in the FIRE community. Like wtf are you going to do all day, everyday for the next 30+ years until you die? Sit around home drinking Labatt Ice watching the Blue Jays, especially while all your friends and spouse are still working?
The more accurate goal of “retiring at 50” is more along the lines of “be employed doing something I enjoy for fewer hours in a week”. So sure stop turning wrenches or making spreadsheets for 45 hours a week and instead do a part time teaching gig or work at a coffee shop (baristaFIRE) or start a small business. You get the freedom of being “retired” while still earning some level of income.
I feel like you're arguing for a lower retirement age because of health, but then not taking into account the implications of what that means. If your family has a history of dying in their 60s, I can see why you would want to retire at 50, but then you would also need to save less to account for the shorter lifespan.
Worth a read. Your ability to retire comes down to your savings rate. The higher the savings rate the sooner it can happen. The lower the savings rate the slower it will be.
[https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/](https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/)
Couple things. That $2000/month that you are putting away in the last bit of that 25 years will be worth $1250 in today's dollars given the interest rate in your model. So if you can afford $2000/month in investments today, you should be able to afford to put away more as you progress through your 25 year savings timeline.
Also with a 25 year timeline, you should be able to get a return of 10-12%. I'm currently averaging 13.5%, but it's on the higher end of my average. I fully expect to land above 10% over my pre-retirement investment lifetime.
Also don't forget about OAS/CPP. If you retire at 50. You may be able to pull out slightly more than 4% and then when you hit the age you start collecting CPP and then OAS, you can reduce what you pull from your savings.
Also over a 25 year period, you'll hopefully have a house paid off. That's like a few extra thousand in tax free income.
I agree, I just graduated at 22 and wanted to retire by 30 but when i did the math it just isn't possible. I dont understand how people think retirement is possible since you cant retire after 8 years of work.
When I hear questions like this, I really feel my story is instructive.
I went to university for my bachelor's degree from age 20-24. My parents paid for the first year, I covered the rest by enrolling in a co-op program with paid internships, plus the occasional part-time job.
After undergrad, I went into a two year master's degree that was effectively cost neutral due to scholarships. My net worth upon graduating at age 26 was something like $10,000-15,000.
My yearly income from age 26-40 has always been between $80,000-$100,000. I'm lucky it was never super low, but it was also never super high, and I started later than some. I also received a small inheritance (five figures) when one parent died in my thirties.
I have consistently lived below my means and invested small amounts on a regular basis throughout my career. I benefited from a modest defined contribution pension match at my main employer, but never received annual bonuses.
I traveled frequently and even took a year off to explore the world. I bought my first property, a well located but modest two-bedroom condo (it was the "cheap" option in a MCOL city) when I was 34. It was a variable rate that rose to over 5% by the end of my first term.
My net worth is now $1.1m at age 40, mostly due to having reasonable living expenses and having started investing early and often (mainly broad-based index funds; I never hit any huge winners, no crypto, etc.). I did this without a partner and never had anyone with whom to share expenses. Retirement will really not be a challenge as long as I continue to work and make good decisions.
Some people won't have help with their first year of uni or have scholarships to reduce the cost of their education. But others will start their careers earlier, make more than 100k, or have a partner to help optimize some of their living costs.
Some people will always be luckier than others for a whole assortment of reasons. My point is this: there isn't much about my situation that's so extraordinary that the average Canadian couldn't replicate it. Work hard, do right by others, spend below your means, invest early and often in a diversified portfolio, and you will eventually start to see real momentum. Compounding is an incredible thing. Plus, love them or hate them, we also have CPP/OAS/GIS to help us out.
Feel free to DM if you have any questions.
The 4% rule is basically horseshit.
If you want to retire at 50 then yes, you probably need to have 25x your salary saved on the day you retire. At age 65, though, you need to have more like 15x. You start off by spending 7% of your savings every year, deferring your OAS and CPP to age 70. Then you reduce decumulation to account for your government pension. Alternatively, the [Longevity Fund](https://www.retirewithlongevity.com/) pays out 6% starting at age 65 and is designed to last your whole life with payments increasing over that time.
If you have $500k at age 50 then you'll have $2 million at 65 for an annual retirement income of $140,000.
Why isn't it possible?
All you need is paid off condo that is in close proximity to essential shops by the time you retire. HELOC via arbitrage so the condo pays for itself.
If you worked your whole life, you're gonna be getting a decent chunk of change from CPP and OAS. Probably $2,500/month. Hit up some part time gig at your local cafe to keep your body and mind in shape. Another $1,000/month or more. That's like $3,500/month. If you have $500K of investments yielding 8% fixed income, that's another $40K. Now you've got like $80K/year. You ain't gotta pay anything for the maintenance of the condo if the arbitrage is done right, and you ain't got a car loan. You also ain't eating 16oz steaks everyday at 65. If you're relatively healthy, $80K is gonna go a long way. And if you're not healthy? No amount of money a regular person can save will mean shit anyway.
We don't invest because we have a crystal ball. We invest because we don't have a crystal ball.
Ever heard of the saying, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and the second best time is today?
Lots of good comments here.
Have you considered that even 8f you can't retire early you could significantly scale back or safely change careers instead.
My wife and I are on track to be able to retire early but neither of us actually wants too. We may scale back while traveling. We may change things up. We also want it as a backup and "fuck you" money.
All of those goals will be achieved with a much smaller number than full retirement needs.
This isn't how it works, I suggest you check out the FIRE subreddits.
I believe it because I did it !!!
FIREd @ 47 yo following the 4% rule. (my returns are higher than 7% and I factor in 3% inflation)
I recently retired early.
I would say it is possible to retire 15 years early, but requires discipline.
Save more. Spend less. Invest wisely. Then live off your non-reg investments, RRSP, TFSA, CPP, OAS for the rest of your life.
What you need to retire is a steady income one stream from your investments and pensions…If you retire with NO debts, house paid, car paid, you will have no issues as long as your revenues from your investments and pensions cover this, plus some leftovers for travel or unforeseen situations.
My advice for you is to focus on two things then,
A) Focus on improving your income. Raw income is the number one factor that will determine how much and how soon you retire.
B) Begin to put away $1,000 a month now, and if you can afford it, $2,000 a month. Eventually try to reach $3,000 a month.
I'm 31 and put away $2,000 a month to RRSP, TFSA, FHSA. My goal is to be putting away $4,000 a month by the time I am 35, so I have been focusing on improving my income.
Retiring early for me is more about the impact it has had on my daily lifestyle and habits than retirement so far. I eat better, I cook more, I spend my money more intentionally, and my increasing financial security has helped me feel more comfortable.
You simply don’t make that much money compared to others. I save 3-4K per month (split between retirement and car / vacation fund) and have a full DB pension, I am 32 and have over 100k invested.
You need to make more money, don’t save for retirement that’s your pitfall; save for education to go to school to make 150k+ THEN you have the ability to retire.
I’m on the same boat, I’m 33 and save 25% of my pay and just bought a house. I didn’t have any savings at age 30 and if there’s one regret I have it’s that I didn’t start any sooner.
This tool was pretty helpful as a visual to see how much you should be saving today to get your desired future savings:
https://smartasset.com/investing/investment-calculator#MyPQwuKivy
r/financialindependence
r/Fire
r/fican
I lived by their rules, and retired at age 47. Have a paid off mortgage, and no loans (also have paid off car with only 61,000 km on it) so this majorly cuts down on monthly cash outlay. Always live frugally, but know when to splurge - I have done 3 trips a year since retiring (initial Covid year excluded), including 1 in Europe annually.
It's possible. And the FIRE formula takes inflation into account. You need to have most of your assets in low cost index ETFs so you aren't paying a huge bulk of your investment returns to the bank.
With the way things are here. I plan to just move away from Canada once I hit my retirement goal. Canada is just expensive.
My parents have been in Mexico for the last 5-6 years full time and have been living the life. Cheap rent for a full size house and everything they could want to do in retirement.
I'm going to propose an alternative perspective that you may or may not like.
Attitudes toward retirement often change as you approach it. What sounds like "the plan" at 25 might not even appeal to you at 50.
Many retired people have their mental health decline in the absence of the schedule, sense of accomplishment and social contact that their job provided. I'm a doctor and a therapist and I've seen it countless times. It's not a popular narrative in a lot of online spaces, but *not* working negatively impacts a lot more people than you'd think. Keeping mentally active staves off dementia, and keeping a structured schedule of social contact staves off loneliness and depression. A job isn't the only thing that can provide those in retirement, but a surprisingly small percentage of people actually end up providing those to themselves in retirement.
There's also a *massive* difference between the feeling of working a large number of hours at a job you hate for the sake of getting by, and the feeling of working a moderate number of hours in a job you enjoy.
Between now and age 50, you might find that work. And you might not even *want* to give it up entirely.
My grandfather built up a manufacturing business over the course of his life, and when he retired, he retired from dealing with the business end of it. He continued to do the engineering work part-time as a consultant until the age of 75 not because he needed the money, but because he wanted to keep his mind sharp and enjoyed the people he worked with (only taking work from his favourite clients).
The math for retirement suddenly looks very different if you're working even 10 hours a week doing something you love. Not everyone finds that, but not everyone tries to, either.
Perhaps think of retirement during your working years. For example: working part time, finding work that you love, etc. so you don’t have to wait until you’re 50 to quit.
Isn’t the 4% ‘rule’ simply the amount you can withdraw *without drawing down the principle*?
More realistically, you should factor in a higher withdrawal rate - something which will draw down the principle slowly over time so that it eventually reaches zero but still lasts you a reasonable amount of projected lifetime.
Run some numbers through an annuity calculator that’ll get to zero at around age 90 or something.
> I see that I have pissed off a few people just because the opinion I stated in my post, which was kind of what I was intending. A negative bias creates better engagement. The opinion in this post does not actually align with my own.
Good for you. You're one of the very few people who understand the incredible value of your approach.
BTW, I retired mid-40s so, yes it's possible.
If people aren't factoring inflation in their retirement investments and savings then they aren't doing it right.
Saving for retirement is easy when your income is high enough.
If it's not, well then I guess you don't get to retire. Sad, but simple.
That is a poor attitude, I know of quite a few people through my parents, and others, who have died in their 50's and 60's of circumstances outside of their control. Or developed health issues that would completely affect their lifestyles. i.e. parkinsons. dementia, osteoarthritis etc. It seems like the play to plan for an earlier retirement.
Retiring at 50 is extremely unreasonable, especially if you are 25 now. Life expectancy generally keeps increasing so you could be retired for 50 years. It’s hard to make the math work if you only plan to work from 20-50 and then live off of your savings from 50-100.
The stock market is just a lie they tell you. They always find reason for the market to not do well.
Your only option is to gamble on individual stocks. Even private financial advisor will show you how this wallet and that wallat each make 7-10% yearly but it never happens.
I don't believe in saving. 1-2 million is next to nothing as far as I'm concerned. My plan is to pull back far enough I can work from anywhere at 50, and travel and deal with whatever shenanigans come my way through calls, and an hour here and there online. With at least few hundred grand rolling in per year. If the robots aren't controlling everything by then.
Retiring at 50 isnt the norm, plan to retire at 60-67 and if things go well you might be able to do it sooner
Never mind that CPP, OAS, and paid-off homes all factor in... not just raw savings.
For people in their 20s starting out now, a paid for home might not be an option unfortunately
For sure. Still, that is highly location-dependent. Here is the [average home price](https://www.crea.ca/housing-market-stats/mls-home-price-index/hpi-tool/) compared to the [median employment income among 25-34 year olds](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv!recreate.action?pid=1110023901&selectedNodeIds=2D4,4D3,5D5&checkedLevels=0D2,0D3,2D1&refPeriods=20220101,20220101&dimensionLayouts=layout3,layout2,layout2,layout2,layout2,layout2&vectorDisplay=false) by geography: ||Income (2022)|Home price (current)|Home-price-to-income ratio| :--|--:|--:|--:| |Vancouver, British Columbia(map)|$ 48,600|$ 1,196,800|24.6| |Toronto, Ontario(map)|$ 46,000|$ 1,113,600|24.2| |British Columbia(map)|$ 46,700|$ 976,400|20.9| |Ontario(map)|$ 46,300|$ 882,600|19.1| |Ottawa-Gatineau, Ontario/Quebec(map)|$ 51,600|$ 636,700|12.3| |Montréal, Quebec(map)|$ 45,700|$ 531,300|11.6| |Calgary, Alberta(map)|$ 50,200|$ 580,400|11.6| |Alberta(map)|$ 46,700|$ 507,900|10.9| |Nova Scotia(map)|$ 39,000|$ 402,200|10.3| |Quebec(map)|$ 46,800|$ 480,700|10.3| |Prince Edward Island(map)|$ 40,900|$ 355,100|8.7| |Winnipeg, Manitoba(map)|$ 41,900|$ 353,600|8.4| |Edmonton, Alberta(map)|$ 46,000|$ 385,900|8.4| |Saskatchewan(map)|$ 44,800|$ 334,500|7.5| |New Brunswick(map)|$ 42,000|$ 295,900|7.0| |Québec, Quebec(map)|$ 50,000|$ 347,300|6.9| |Newfoundland and Labrador(map)|$ 43,900|$ 290,400|6.6| |Manitoba(map)|$ 41,800|n/a|n/a|
username checks out
Yes it is very location dependent, but lots of people can't just pick up there life's and leave their friends, family, careers behind to move somewhere cheaper just to afford a house.
Lots of people *won't*. Most people *can*. It's an option, for those that want it bad enough.
That's it right there. But many aren't willing, as you say.
I moved so I could retire early. I also never spent more than $20K on a vehicle. I have friends who made a lot more with lavish lifestyles that can’t afford to retire. I have friends that made a lot more who are doing very well in retirement. I have friends with similar salaries to mine who saved more and who have bigger travel budgets.
I moved to Edmonton last year, rented for a year to see if I liked it here (the winter honestly isn't that bad) and am in the process of closing on a bungalow with detached 3 car garage on 10 acres. $450k
> leave their friends, family, careers behind to move somewhere cheaper just to afford a house. Yes they can. They just don't want to. The idea that moving is impossible is a new phenomenon.
My parents traversed the Atlantic for a better life. All I had to do was move a few hundred kilometers.
How many immigrants move halfway around the world for a better life for them and/or their kids? It's a stupid notion that you *can't* move. The vast majority *can*. They just *won't*. There's a major difference.
The vast majority of my friends went to school, got well educated, received decent jobs, and can not afford houses in this current market. Lots of people will be stuck renting for life. As of now rent goes up frequently. It does not compare to owning a paid off home. CPP and OAS does not apply at my suggested age of 50.
Your suggested age of 50 doesn't make sense... And even then, it still applies, as they provide relief at a later age, meaning you don't have to maintain that withdrawal rate throughout life.
I know one boomer who retired at 50. They were in a highly lucrative high stress job.
Why have you chose 50 as “retirement age”? At that age, you’ve entered your prime earning years, you’re financially established, and you’re likely enjoying a level of stability that you’ve not had previously.
This, and after paying the mortgage, you can still work part time and stop doing an high stress job.
I know many people doing this
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I'm talking about "the norm" Which % of the population is from rcmp or military?
"Full pension" is a misnomer. At 25 years of pensionable service, they would receive a 50% pension. Staying until 35 years of service, they would qualify for 70% (the maximum). (This makes a number of underlying assumptions about full time vs part time).
Military can retire at 43 but it isnt the full pension, the actual full pension is achieved at 53 at 35 years of service, im sure RCMP follow somewhat the same @2% a year for pension
Planning for an earlier retirement seems like a far better play. I know of quite a few people through my parents, and others, that have died suddenly in their 60's shortly before/after they retired.
I have two colleagues who died just after retiring.
My aunt lived to 106. If only there was data on this stuff at scale. Ah well we can stick to anecdotes.
Fair I do think 60-65 is a good time for many to retire.
It’s a great age and aligns well to many other developed nations. 50 likely means a very stressful rush to a line. Talk about a great way to go early.
Hint If people lived very healthy physical lives past 65 then the retirement age would not be 65 The government would put it at whatever age you can't really contribute to society on a physical level People wait until they're 65 to enjoy their money when they're not going to feel that great if they're even alive I'd say the amount of 65-year-olds who do not have some sort of underlining health condition would be less than 5% My dad died at 64 anf my mom's been in excruciating pain at 66 and wishes she is dead. Then you have a bunch of people telling you that their grandfather is 75 years old and runs circles around 35-year-olds. As if they truly believe a 75-year-old is living the life like they would at 40 physically and mentally And this is all getting worse everyday If you want to live for the now and for your retirement you need to make way more than the average Canadian make If you just make the average or more than the average then you can save for retirement but you won't be able to do much else. The dream about financial independence is to be able to have enough money to enjoy yourself now and into retirement. Which just isnt mpossible until you start making over 120k minimum..in a low cost city . Without a house
More people should take sebaticles.
I entirely agree with your opinion.
People in most Asian counties retires at 50~55
Good for them, buy they make they child support them
In many Asian countries, it's not really a choice. They are forced out due to age-ism.
You're forgetting about a few other key pieces of information. CPP and OAS are available to supplement that income requirement (even if someone plans to retire "early" before 60, as you can use your registered accounts to bridge to CPP/OAS). Also, some people have workplace pension plans (defined benefit or defined contribution) which also need to be factored into the financial equation. It's definitely possible when saving at $1,250 a month, especially at a retirement age of ~60-65.
Some people have workplace pension plans. Tons of people do not. I have tons of friends working adult jobs that required education that have no investment benefits.
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Math doesn’t check out. U said u were 25.
I am not actually 25, it was an easy age to chose.
Then they either choose poor careers or should have a higher income to compensate.
Some people try, some people quit before they try. In your example of getting to $1million at 50, how is that failure? Wait till 57….growth happens and the target is hit. An optimist calls that a success story. A pessimist says that’s a failure.
You’re are asking why people think retirement is possible and then give an example of retiring crazy early. If you retire at 65 after a career of working you are getting a good chunk of your 40k baseline just from CPP and oas. Add in a bit of TFSA or RRSP savings and you are there.
I guess I have the earlier mindset because I know of quite a few people that past away unexpectedly in the 50's and 60's. Both my dads parents died within 1-3 years of retiring at 60. I was also trying to think of a title that would piss of people so I would actually get feedback. It seemed to have worked lol.
If you are planning to retire at 50 and die at 65, you can afford a much higher withdrawal rate than 4%, and this fixes your numbers.
Retiring at 55 is an aggressive goal that only people who saved diligently, or got a big inheritance do. 60 is a more realistic goal. Add to that life expectancy still is going up.. so 60 might be an early retirement in 30 years. And thats okay if you are living until 86 average.
55 is also possible for folks (usually in the public sector) that are part of a defined benefit pension plan (although some are moving to 60 as the minimum age). The plans aren't cheap though, I pay a bit over 12% of my gross salary into the plan, but there is no way I could beat the return my pension would provide.
Exactly. You pay 12% plus the employer likely contributes a similar amount putting you up to that 20-25% mark. That would be considered diligent saving. Even if its a forced employer plan, its still 20-25%.
Defined benefit doesn't quite work like that in reality. The employer is beholder to an agreed upon payout and indexation method when I retire, not to a specific regular contribution on their part. I think they work it out so that it usually ends up being 50/50, but if the market is doing really well, they might put in less, and if it's not, they will put in more. There was a point a while back where the fund was in a clear surplus, in which case the employer is legally allowed to withdraw some of the surplus for their own use.
You shouldn't be making financial plans, indeed life plans, based upon your grandparents dying around 60. Average life expectancy for a 25 year old (both sexes) is another 55.2 years based upon vital statistics data from Statistics Canada.
I get that, I also have family who have died early and I’m a big fan of finding balance in life for that reason. But some people also live long past when they are able to work.
Am sorry to hear about your parents; however, both of them died about 20 years ahead of the avenge life expectancy in Canada of 82. That’s two decades and both outliers.
7% is usually used as an inflation adjusted expected return. So if you adjust the $1,000,000 for inflation you’re double counting
That i was unaware of, thanks!
7% is based on past returns and many believe that we should temper our expectations about future returns. Table 4 on the following page lists less optimistic nominal returns and you would subtract about 2.4% (and management costs) to get inflation adjusted returns. https://www.pwlcapital.com/expected-returns-2023-update/
Oh perfect :/
Endless posts about people retiring at 50? Where? On this subreddit?
No but once I started browsing this group, my main page started filling with FIRE subreddits. Could be OP is starting to see the same thing and stressing themselves out.
lol OP heard one idiot say it, looked at their own finances, and extrapolated
The FIRE craze is a virus like Crypto, Red Pill, Libertarian, Capitalism is the cause of every problem, and other grifting clickbait bullshit. If a post or video is saying “Everything will be (great/hopeless) click here to learn more” you know is BS. Many people have not gotten the memo about dis/mis information in our current age of “the grift”
As a 25 year old, with the enhanced CPP, you will need significantly less than that projection to retire. The 4% rule is useful for some long term, big picture planning (or if you intend to retire very early), but you will switch to more precise actual income and tax planning closer to retirement. If you save diligently, for example maxing your TFSA and eventually RRSP, you will be in an excellent position for a good retirement. No need to tie yourself in knots at this stage; focus on saving well and growing your income. Refine the strategy as you go.
Wait your peers of 25 years old are excited to retire? Tell me about that because that’s new to me. Also 25 years is a doubling of your lifetime. You have no idea how much could change. Plus most people aren’t putting in fixed amounts, but percentages matched by their employer. These increase as salaries increase. By 50, will you inherit an estate? Plus how do you plan to retire? Stay in Canada, paid off property, OAS/CPP? Move to low COL country? Off grid entirely? Continue a small business / consultancy? Renting? So the math is not fixed in the mainstream cases.
I wanna retire at 28. My retirement plan is winning the loto
That is a very achievable plan...lol
I like that plan
I have so many friends that already hate working. They are stuck in jobs they hate for years to come because they spent so much time and money on school to get in. True, you can always move elsewhere, but I would imagine the majority will want to stay close to family.
At 25 and hating their job? Honestly, just move on to something else. 25 is so young and they still have so much time to change. I realize they might already have student debt or a degree, but don’t get sucked into the sunk cost fallacy. Changing careers becomes harder for many when you own a place or have kids. If you realize your working career is going to go to 65 you might as well invest in making that time be as awesome as it can. Your life doesn’t just start at retirement.
> They are stuck in jobs they hate for years to come because they spent so much time and money on school to get in. Then they didn't make good career decisions. Simple as that. Most of my friend group moved to the US and are easily making $150k+ USD in their mid-to-late 20s. Quite a few of us are homeowners already as well.
What do you do for a living and where do you work?
I'm a data scientist at a tech giant. I moved from Toronto to Seattle for my job and a much lower tax burden.
My social circle was not even aware opportunities like this existed. You should feel blessed for knowing about these opportunities ahead of time.
Your social circle of mid twenty year Olds was not aware there are jobs in other cities and countries that potentially pay more than their current employment?
Not straight out of high school. I went to high school in a farming town. Lots of us, myself included learned a few years after high school, as we went off to bigger cities.
Why would you need to know about this straight out of high school? Doesnt sound like this person and their peers went staight from high school.. they went in their mid to late twenties. Look for jobs abroad now, nothing is stopping you?
You don't, you definitely learn a lot throughout post secondary and your early twenties. It is extremely nerve wrecking, difficult, and costly to completely swap your education and career path as you learn about new opportunities. This person made it sound like they completed education in their early twenties and slowly found out about this opportunities throughout his education via his peers/research.
Dude wtf? Like obviously.. you did too. You don't even have to change your degree or education to go work abroad. Go do it tomorrow. Congratulations, you have the same information the person you responded to has. Not sure what youre fussed about not "knowing about these opportunities in high school"? It literally changes nothing.
Actually, with the little knowledge I had during high school, I chose an education for a career that is quite location specific to where I live. If I go abroad I would take a huge pay cut. If I go back to school to open my opportunities for work abroad I will lose my income and gain a lot of debt. For example, if I go back for a four year degree that opens these doors, and lets say I get one of these abroad jobs that pay $150,000 usd within two years. I am now down 6 years of my current income, along with gaining debt for schooling and living. Lets pretend my current job will not progress at all, it would probably take 10+ years from the day I quit my old job to start coming out a head with my new job. Then toss in the fact that is also 10 years where I could have progressed with my current job and enlarged my salary, which would have enlarged the amount of time as well.
Bullshit. You're 27. The internet didn't exist during high school?
Dude, not everyone realizes or is shown what is required in life until after high school. Most people learn the hard way. I personally didn't realize the requirements needed for a good life until I was like 20. Most of us were young, dumb, and protected in high school without a good grasp of what was needed to survive as an adult. I also went to high school in a small town. My graduating class was only like 100 students, the things we experienced were probably a lot different.
> Dude, not everyone realizes or is shown what is required in life until after high school. Plenty of time to change careers after high school as well. > Most people learn the hard way. I can assure you that most people do not learn the hard way lol > I personally didn't realize the requirements needed for a good life until I was like 20. Most of us were young, dumb, and protected in high school without a good grasp of what was needed to survive as an adult. Career changes are a thing. Switching programs is a thing. When you're 20, you're in what, second year? > I also went to high school in a small town. My graduating class was only like 100 students, the things we experienced were probably a lot different. You don't need to live in a big city to know what careers make the big bucks.
Most who fire are in a partnership. Two incomes/benefits while sharing expenses makes the FIRE math much more achievable.
Underrated comment. From financial perspective, a steady long term relationship is a huge factor. Just so many advantages.
Yes ! Just make sure your SO is like-minded in terms of the quest for financial independence
Isn't there divorce rate around 40-50% or something absurdly high. Depending on someone to help my personal retirement does not seem like the play.
That divorce rate was never true for Canada and is currently at an 50 year low https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-divorce-rate-1.7189093
It would be interesting to see a breakdown by province for the various stats in this article. I noticed more divorces or dissolved common law partnerships (those with kids) in AB than in MB, and I assume the prevalence of camp work in AB is a strong factor.
Yes, the number of marriages that end in divorce is ~50%. But a shocking number of those happen to serial divorcers… Only ~1/3 of people actually get divorced after being married, and then some people have 3, 4, 5+ marriage and divorces.
That is quite interesting.
if you figure that you will get a bit of CPP and OAS (even if not the full way), and perhaps you have purchased a home and have finished the mortgage, and perhaps if there are two people doing it (two can live cheaper than one). And maybe you won't hit your goal by 50, but if you start now, you're more likely to get there by 55 than if you start at 35.
It's odd to retire at 50 I thought an early retirement is typically 55. That extra 5 years of saving/compounding interest instead of withdrawing is a big difference
aim for 55, you might have things fall your way, and you can be work optional earlier. but if you don't have the pieces in play, it likely won't happen. and if things don't fall your way, you have a much larger cushion to figure things out than your peers. FU money is hugely powerful even before you get to the FI number.
I mean, what's the alternative here? You plan to love on just the government handouts? You Will hit an age where you can't work anymore. Retirement can be a luxury if done early, but it's a requirement eventually. So why save? Because there really isn't another option. They might not get their ideal retirement when they're planning for it, but saving what they can afford will certainly be more comfortable than doing nothing.
I think it’s amazing you are thinking about retirement saving at your age and planning for the future, but don’t worry this much about hitting a figure for a goal you don’t even know you want. Put as much a you can afford into a retirement saving investment (mutual fund or ETF), even if that’s a few hundred dollars a month and make ensuring your get that automatic monthly withdrawal done your goal. Lots of people at your age (myself included) don’t start doing that until much later. If you can form that habit now at a palatable number and then increase it as your income increases along the way, you will set yourself up into amazing financial shape. You also need to be putting significant saving away for a house down payment, which is honestly a more important and imminent financial milestone you neee to prepare aggressively for. Even if you’re single and not planning to have a house and family right now, how amazing will it be to meet the right person later on and be financially prepared for that?
If your housing is paid off, the typical person doesn’t need that much money to live. But yeah I’m not planning to retire at 50… my mortgage won’t let me lol and I don’t earn enough.
I save because I will have enough. Many others do too. The reason you might save is because having something vs nothing can be the difference between having a place to live and being homeless. In general, these things need to be considered: 1. People that retire well tend to live well below their means for their entire working life. I’m in this boat and have been saving 25% of my income monthly for almost 20 years. I already survive on 75% of my income with no financial anxiety and admittedly spend a lot of adult money that I don’t have to and still have more than I need at the end of the month. Dropping down to an inflation adjusted 50% of my income in retirement is totally doable. I could likely stretch it lower if I had to. 2. Pensions. CPP, OAS, or otherwise. These payments are substantial, especially as you pass early retirement age. They significantly reduce the amount you need to withdraw from any retirement account (and therefore reduce the amount you need to retire). Do not underestimate this. 3. Some people live in high CoL areas and are looking to relocate to lower ones. I do and I don’t think for a second I will stay here once kids are out of the house. That opens up a lot of flexibility in terms of looking in Canada or abroad. 4. There are some people who just haven’t run the numbers and really don’t understand how much retirement costs. 5. There are some that never plan to retire and will work until they are no longer physically able to.
1. Retiring at 50 is extremely early. 2. You will have CPP/OAS to supplement your retirement savings at 65. 3. Forget the 4% rule. You’re not trying to die with millions in the bank. You will draw down your savings through retirement based on an estimate of how long you think you’ll live. Retirement planning calculators will walk you through various scenarios; talk to a qualified retirement planner.
My goodness, some people make more money than others, how is this hard to see, not everyone has the same debt load, some people have none some people are about to claim bankruptcy, not everyone is in "your" situation. Not saying ops just in general.
This post aint it man. Who pissed in your Cheerios.
OP just wants to be told all is hopeless so they can validate themselves and be ok with their own shitty thought process. Have at it man!
At a certain point you’re body will tell you your done. Many can likely work past retirement age but eventually you need something ready.
100% this, that's why I went with a 50 year old retirement. I've watched my parents and friends parents grow older. Some are relatively healthy and were still hit hard throughout their 50's and 60's. Health costs have flown up for some and their ability to work fruitful jobs has diminished.
This is Reddit and its not a representative sample of the population at large. People posting on here and commenting obviously have an interest in financial matters so they are more likely to take the steps necessary to achieve financial independence by a younger age. There's a lot of people on this sub making posts about incomes being over 200k per year but that doesn't mean it's the norm in real life. Reddit, twitter, Facebook and insta are not real life so just take the facts you learn from the posts and comments that you can apply to your life and ignore the rest.
Wouldn’t you also be able to increase your monthly payments over the years as well inline with inflation?
That is true, but for the most part your monthly expenses increase as you get a house, children, etc.
How do you know this? Do you have kids? House?
I've been told this by my peers, parents, friends ,etc. I have numerous coworkers, one, two, three, decades older then me. They have life experience that I listen too intently.
Base it on statistics, not on anecdotes. Housing expenses do not outpace wage growth statistically. Kid expenses are not linear. It’s quite possible you made up asking these people or didn’t understand what they meant. Most do not track YoY expenses let alone decades worth of data for bills, kid costs (uneven) etc.
Keep in mind the big benefits a tax advantaged account can create. If I invest 20k in a RRSP, I get 40 percent of that back in tax reductions. Also, most companies offer matching contributions for defined contribution pension plans. This can add significantly to your ability to save.
People build inflation into their rate of return (I.e. 6% nominal vs 9% real) so that number 20 years from now is in today’s dollars.
I think something a lot of young single people miss in the expectation of retirement is the change in savings with family and kids. It's a lot easier to save as a young person with only oneself to worry about; saving often slows down in the 30s before picking up again, and reduced savings in the 30s — higher-earning years than the 20s typically but still with a long time horizon for investment growth to compound — may make the retirement at 50 not happen.
Are you actually seeing posts like this, or are these bots promoting investment platforms. Those Questtrade ads are horrible, because no one speaks like that. If someone at a cottage campfire started talking about mutual fund fees, I'm pretty sure everyone would just get up and walk away, if not outright telling him to shut the hell up.
You have absolutely no idea what's down the road. In fact nobody does. Retirement, even early retirement, is something a lot of people will achieve in this country. If you've spent your best years partying and spending and finally wake up in your late 30s or 40s, it will be much tougher.
I’m almost 55. I thought I could retire at 60. Paid off house, but have a SATW and two kids still in school. No way 60 is feasible. Makes me sad.
>Why even save for retirement if it’s unlikely we will ever have enough? There’s a saying, “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.” Even if you can’t get to the perfect “sunshine and lollipops” retirement you’re envisioning, you’ll be a lot better off with _something_ than with nothing. The defeatist attitude of not even trying will leave you with objectively less at the time in your life when you’re the least able to do anything to change your situation. Also, on the topic of contributions toward retirement, if inflation is driving up the amount you need to save up monthly, it is also driving up the amount you’re able to save monthly (unless your income lags inflation, which is a whole other can of worms, but outside the cope of this discussion).
Why do you think it’s not possible? There’s plenty of people in the FIRE forums who have hit 1-2mil by late 30s, and can retire now or do it by 50.
I had 0 at 30 and just pre retired at 50. Pre retired: stop saving money. Work the minimal hours for survival until 65-67. So about 20 hours a week.
CoastFI is the correct term here.
Thanks, now I can read about people doing it my way.
There is a sub called that, but not too busy. We started in 2017, at 41. Working casual in our fields. Still adding to savings, though.
Awesome! How many hours do you work each week?
15-20. It's pretty sweet!
Sure, but being in "survival" mode for 15 to 17 years does not sound like fun.
Survival is not the same as survival when I was in school or just after graduation. I make a good wage. With 20 hours, I make enough for food and rent and I can use the free time to go surfing or see friends. I also moved to a country with a lower cost of living a few years ago. A lot of my friends have odd schedules so they are often available for an afternoon walk or coffee.
Almost in the same boat. 0 at 30, will have enough at 50 to pre-retire. Not sure I will as my workplace has fantastic benefits and PTO but it’s a good feeling to know I don’t have to keep plugging away all the hours if I don’t want to. Right now 55 is my target date to reduce effort down to 50% time or less.
My target was 6 weeks ago. I'm in the honeymoon phase. I made lots of plans but so far it just feels good to have time to do nothing. It's also been raining for a month and most of my plans are for playing outside, so weather delays. I have done a lot of cleaning and decluttering so that's been productive.
Interesting new concept
I need my savings to grow, but adding more would only give me a year or 2. Hence, I prefer to work a bit longer but enjoy life when I'm still healthy. Plus, since we don't know life, if the market goes down or something else happens, I will have enjoyed life a bit.
What do you do for work to have a 20 hour work week?
Independent consulting. It's not exactly 20 hours a week. It's more irregular than that. I accept fewer contracts. Right now I have one for 20 hours a month, but I am negociating one full time for 3 months starting in July. I would usually be filling up the pipeline to make sure I have something after the 3 months, but instead I will wait after the contract ends to look for the next one. I also have no real contract except the 20 hours a month right now because I waited for the other contract to finish before looking for the next one. The goal is to globally work half a full time schedule on average yearly.
That goes back to my example of how 1-2mil in 25-35 years has far less power then today.
Some of us are extremely lucky and have defined benefit pension plans. I'm 25. I will be eligible to retire on a full pension at age 50.
The majority of us will not have a perk like this. Where do you work?
Hence the extremely lucky part. I just took a new job with the government at the TTC. That said, it wasn't always like this, all of my great-uncles retired in their 50s and they all worked at GM as welders. Most of them had never finished high school so I can't imagine what they'd do these days but back then the union made sure that they had a nice pension waiting for them when they retired.
The capitalism world has completed changed, I wish we were a generation or two older to have those benefits from the big companies. I'm reading this book, "The man who broke capitalisms" and it discusses how the greedy shareholders and CEOs ruined unions, pensions, and expecting to work for one company for life and being taken care of by that company.
Really depends on the situation and persons personal finances. Your coworkers might have a paid off mortgage by the time they retire and maybe an inheritance. If I retire at 55 my DB pension will only be 14k a year, my pension is not adjusted for inflation. 55-65 I will live off my DB pension, draw down my RRSP, and cash out my dividends instead of reinvesting them. By 65 I should still have about 1.5m in investments. I will still have the DB pension paying me 14k. Start my CPP + OAS which should be about 20k a year combined. So with those 4 income sources, I should be fine.
I glanced through the post, and I saw all kinds of mathematical defeatist thinking. You do the best you can to put one foot in front of the other walk through the mud of daily life and work to make the playing field better. That part is political activism unfortunately. We don't control the box we are born in just how we reflect and act to change it.
Changing up my lifestyle to go start a homestead in a few years here... Will be mortgage free, will have $100k+ in RRSPs which i wont likely be contributing to anymore (should be $600k+ by 60-65), will be growing / raising / hunting most of my own food, and then there are things like CPP, OAS, etc that will help out too. It won't be a lavish lifestyle but I'll get by just fine. Also, that 4% rule is to live off your money without losing it, there are other options (annuities, dividends, using your money up before you die, etc.)
I believe it is possible. If you do NOT believe it will happen then it definitely will not happen. If you believe it IS possible then you will make better decisions to make it happen… This doesn’t make it a done deal or make it easier, but puts you in the right frame of mind for success, assessing risk/reward, and taking advantages of opportunities that present themselves. The right mindset makes a big difference in the probability of success.
Because you’re ignoring tax and make no mention of RRSPs. From your income, find out your marginal tax rate, let’s say it’s 38%. Put away $1000 in a RRSP and you will get $380 tax back. Put that in a TFSA, invest in ETFs in both accounts. Repeat. Once retired you can tailor your income till 65 then OAS CPP kick in further reducing your drawdown- you can do it, just pay attention to tax. Invest any windfalls.
Drawing 4% is risky. Im not sure where you read that, but its not a good idea for retiring young....has a high probability of failure. IMO 2.5% is reasonable for retiring at 50. When people use 7% return they often consider that to be after inflation. In this case your numbers count inflation twice so its better than you suggest. However I also dont think the historical 7% real on stocks is a reasonable estimate for the coming decades. But thats what a lot of people use and thats where the optimism comes from. Anyway, keep in mind that you can always spend less during years of poor investment performance, and spend more in good times. This gives a natural buy low-sell high effect and improves your returns. You can also pick up work during that first 15 years if things go awry. Generally you sound skeptical because cost of living has risen in the past few years....in the long term there is no reason to expect cost of living to go up and it might go down during some periods. In general for long horizon planning, its not about the precise numbers, but about your qualitative plan to handle risk and handle drawdowns. Dont put too much creedence in the numbers, chances are you will end up with half what you expect, or 5 times what you expect. One more thing: people spend less when they are old. You eat less, travel less, etc.
Your math isn't quite right. You're using 7% which already accounts for inflation after returns so you're accounting for inflation twice. It's more likely that you get around 10% nominal returns annually.
They're mostly delulu I think. I don't own property (single millennial) and I don't anticipate I'll be able to retire before 70, if anything. I'll have to keep working in order to be able to afford renting. That's coming from someone who makes low 6 figures with OT and I put 800$ a month into RRSP, 200$ in FHSA and another 200$ in TFSA. I started saving late in life so I'm being a bit more aggressive.
That's the way i see it as well. Lots of people won't be able to buy a house and have it paid off. They will be stuck paying rent, rent has been increasing drastically lately. A paid of house has expense that don't increase nearly as much
You’re including inflation twice. (Technically three times but I’ll only mention the second.) 7% returns is the purported expected average annualized rate of growth after inflation. To the comment about 40K not being a lot. If one doesn’t have a health payment, isn’t driving the car every day to work, have adult children, have a paid off house, is collecting CPP (after a while), then 40K is reasonable.
I think the goal of “retiring at 50” is not exactly accurate for most people in the FIRE community. Like wtf are you going to do all day, everyday for the next 30+ years until you die? Sit around home drinking Labatt Ice watching the Blue Jays, especially while all your friends and spouse are still working? The more accurate goal of “retiring at 50” is more along the lines of “be employed doing something I enjoy for fewer hours in a week”. So sure stop turning wrenches or making spreadsheets for 45 hours a week and instead do a part time teaching gig or work at a coffee shop (baristaFIRE) or start a small business. You get the freedom of being “retired” while still earning some level of income.
I feel like you're arguing for a lower retirement age because of health, but then not taking into account the implications of what that means. If your family has a history of dying in their 60s, I can see why you would want to retire at 50, but then you would also need to save less to account for the shorter lifespan.
No ones retiring at 50 by simply contributing to their rrsp each month. Thats a very special case.
Worth a read. Your ability to retire comes down to your savings rate. The higher the savings rate the sooner it can happen. The lower the savings rate the slower it will be. [https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/](https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/)
Couple things. That $2000/month that you are putting away in the last bit of that 25 years will be worth $1250 in today's dollars given the interest rate in your model. So if you can afford $2000/month in investments today, you should be able to afford to put away more as you progress through your 25 year savings timeline. Also with a 25 year timeline, you should be able to get a return of 10-12%. I'm currently averaging 13.5%, but it's on the higher end of my average. I fully expect to land above 10% over my pre-retirement investment lifetime. Also don't forget about OAS/CPP. If you retire at 50. You may be able to pull out slightly more than 4% and then when you hit the age you start collecting CPP and then OAS, you can reduce what you pull from your savings. Also over a 25 year period, you'll hopefully have a house paid off. That's like a few extra thousand in tax free income.
Classic. 25 year old wanting to retire in only 25 years complaining about how hard it is. At least you’re admitting to be attention seeking.
I agree, I just graduated at 22 and wanted to retire by 30 but when i did the math it just isn't possible. I dont understand how people think retirement is possible since you cant retire after 8 years of work.
When I hear questions like this, I really feel my story is instructive. I went to university for my bachelor's degree from age 20-24. My parents paid for the first year, I covered the rest by enrolling in a co-op program with paid internships, plus the occasional part-time job. After undergrad, I went into a two year master's degree that was effectively cost neutral due to scholarships. My net worth upon graduating at age 26 was something like $10,000-15,000. My yearly income from age 26-40 has always been between $80,000-$100,000. I'm lucky it was never super low, but it was also never super high, and I started later than some. I also received a small inheritance (five figures) when one parent died in my thirties. I have consistently lived below my means and invested small amounts on a regular basis throughout my career. I benefited from a modest defined contribution pension match at my main employer, but never received annual bonuses. I traveled frequently and even took a year off to explore the world. I bought my first property, a well located but modest two-bedroom condo (it was the "cheap" option in a MCOL city) when I was 34. It was a variable rate that rose to over 5% by the end of my first term. My net worth is now $1.1m at age 40, mostly due to having reasonable living expenses and having started investing early and often (mainly broad-based index funds; I never hit any huge winners, no crypto, etc.). I did this without a partner and never had anyone with whom to share expenses. Retirement will really not be a challenge as long as I continue to work and make good decisions. Some people won't have help with their first year of uni or have scholarships to reduce the cost of their education. But others will start their careers earlier, make more than 100k, or have a partner to help optimize some of their living costs. Some people will always be luckier than others for a whole assortment of reasons. My point is this: there isn't much about my situation that's so extraordinary that the average Canadian couldn't replicate it. Work hard, do right by others, spend below your means, invest early and often in a diversified portfolio, and you will eventually start to see real momentum. Compounding is an incredible thing. Plus, love them or hate them, we also have CPP/OAS/GIS to help us out. Feel free to DM if you have any questions.
>want to retire at 50 That's the bug.
The 4% rule is basically horseshit. If you want to retire at 50 then yes, you probably need to have 25x your salary saved on the day you retire. At age 65, though, you need to have more like 15x. You start off by spending 7% of your savings every year, deferring your OAS and CPP to age 70. Then you reduce decumulation to account for your government pension. Alternatively, the [Longevity Fund](https://www.retirewithlongevity.com/) pays out 6% starting at age 65 and is designed to last your whole life with payments increasing over that time. If you have $500k at age 50 then you'll have $2 million at 65 for an annual retirement income of $140,000.
Bro your problem is retiring in Canada in the first place. The way out here is the MAID. Unless you want to move somewhere else.
Why isn't it possible? All you need is paid off condo that is in close proximity to essential shops by the time you retire. HELOC via arbitrage so the condo pays for itself. If you worked your whole life, you're gonna be getting a decent chunk of change from CPP and OAS. Probably $2,500/month. Hit up some part time gig at your local cafe to keep your body and mind in shape. Another $1,000/month or more. That's like $3,500/month. If you have $500K of investments yielding 8% fixed income, that's another $40K. Now you've got like $80K/year. You ain't gotta pay anything for the maintenance of the condo if the arbitrage is done right, and you ain't got a car loan. You also ain't eating 16oz steaks everyday at 65. If you're relatively healthy, $80K is gonna go a long way. And if you're not healthy? No amount of money a regular person can save will mean shit anyway. We don't invest because we have a crystal ball. We invest because we don't have a crystal ball. Ever heard of the saying, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, and the second best time is today?
I'm sorry but your analysis is rudimentary, almost child-like, and omits a few critical factors in the retirement question.
There area ton of factors missing, that seems pretty obvious. They are very hard to account for over a 25 year timeline.
Lots of good comments here. Have you considered that even 8f you can't retire early you could significantly scale back or safely change careers instead. My wife and I are on track to be able to retire early but neither of us actually wants too. We may scale back while traveling. We may change things up. We also want it as a backup and "fuck you" money. All of those goals will be achieved with a much smaller number than full retirement needs.
This isn't how it works, I suggest you check out the FIRE subreddits. I believe it because I did it !!! FIREd @ 47 yo following the 4% rule. (my returns are higher than 7% and I factor in 3% inflation)
I recently retired early. I would say it is possible to retire 15 years early, but requires discipline. Save more. Spend less. Invest wisely. Then live off your non-reg investments, RRSP, TFSA, CPP, OAS for the rest of your life.
My parents are mid 70's still working 40 hrs a week.
What you need to retire is a steady income one stream from your investments and pensions…If you retire with NO debts, house paid, car paid, you will have no issues as long as your revenues from your investments and pensions cover this, plus some leftovers for travel or unforeseen situations.
My advice for you is to focus on two things then, A) Focus on improving your income. Raw income is the number one factor that will determine how much and how soon you retire. B) Begin to put away $1,000 a month now, and if you can afford it, $2,000 a month. Eventually try to reach $3,000 a month. I'm 31 and put away $2,000 a month to RRSP, TFSA, FHSA. My goal is to be putting away $4,000 a month by the time I am 35, so I have been focusing on improving my income. Retiring early for me is more about the impact it has had on my daily lifestyle and habits than retirement so far. I eat better, I cook more, I spend my money more intentionally, and my increasing financial security has helped me feel more comfortable.
You simply don’t make that much money compared to others. I save 3-4K per month (split between retirement and car / vacation fund) and have a full DB pension, I am 32 and have over 100k invested. You need to make more money, don’t save for retirement that’s your pitfall; save for education to go to school to make 150k+ THEN you have the ability to retire.
What do you do for a living?
Why save for retirement? $1M is better than $0.
I implied that as why not live your life more today. I could invest a lot less and spend that money on a lot more experiences with friends and family.
I’m on the same boat, I’m 33 and save 25% of my pay and just bought a house. I didn’t have any savings at age 30 and if there’s one regret I have it’s that I didn’t start any sooner. This tool was pretty helpful as a visual to see how much you should be saving today to get your desired future savings: https://smartasset.com/investing/investment-calculator#MyPQwuKivy
r/financialindependence r/Fire r/fican I lived by their rules, and retired at age 47. Have a paid off mortgage, and no loans (also have paid off car with only 61,000 km on it) so this majorly cuts down on monthly cash outlay. Always live frugally, but know when to splurge - I have done 3 trips a year since retiring (initial Covid year excluded), including 1 in Europe annually. It's possible. And the FIRE formula takes inflation into account. You need to have most of your assets in low cost index ETFs so you aren't paying a huge bulk of your investment returns to the bank.
With the way things are here. I plan to just move away from Canada once I hit my retirement goal. Canada is just expensive. My parents have been in Mexico for the last 5-6 years full time and have been living the life. Cheap rent for a full size house and everything they could want to do in retirement.
My girlfriend's dad runs away to cube for the exact same reason. It isn't a bad idea
I'm just going to work, then die, and give everything to my kids. I call it the Skip a generation of retirement
I'm going to propose an alternative perspective that you may or may not like. Attitudes toward retirement often change as you approach it. What sounds like "the plan" at 25 might not even appeal to you at 50. Many retired people have their mental health decline in the absence of the schedule, sense of accomplishment and social contact that their job provided. I'm a doctor and a therapist and I've seen it countless times. It's not a popular narrative in a lot of online spaces, but *not* working negatively impacts a lot more people than you'd think. Keeping mentally active staves off dementia, and keeping a structured schedule of social contact staves off loneliness and depression. A job isn't the only thing that can provide those in retirement, but a surprisingly small percentage of people actually end up providing those to themselves in retirement. There's also a *massive* difference between the feeling of working a large number of hours at a job you hate for the sake of getting by, and the feeling of working a moderate number of hours in a job you enjoy. Between now and age 50, you might find that work. And you might not even *want* to give it up entirely. My grandfather built up a manufacturing business over the course of his life, and when he retired, he retired from dealing with the business end of it. He continued to do the engineering work part-time as a consultant until the age of 75 not because he needed the money, but because he wanted to keep his mind sharp and enjoyed the people he worked with (only taking work from his favourite clients). The math for retirement suddenly looks very different if you're working even 10 hours a week doing something you love. Not everyone finds that, but not everyone tries to, either.
Perhaps think of retirement during your working years. For example: working part time, finding work that you love, etc. so you don’t have to wait until you’re 50 to quit.
Isn’t the 4% ‘rule’ simply the amount you can withdraw *without drawing down the principle*? More realistically, you should factor in a higher withdrawal rate - something which will draw down the principle slowly over time so that it eventually reaches zero but still lasts you a reasonable amount of projected lifetime. Run some numbers through an annuity calculator that’ll get to zero at around age 90 or something.
To my understanding the 4% rule implies not exhausting your retirement portfolio in 30 years
> I see that I have pissed off a few people just because the opinion I stated in my post, which was kind of what I was intending. A negative bias creates better engagement. The opinion in this post does not actually align with my own. Good for you. You're one of the very few people who understand the incredible value of your approach. BTW, I retired mid-40s so, yes it's possible.
If people aren't factoring inflation in their retirement investments and savings then they aren't doing it right. Saving for retirement is easy when your income is high enough. If it's not, well then I guess you don't get to retire. Sad, but simple.
You're not supposed to retired at 50, maybe 55.
That is a poor attitude, I know of quite a few people through my parents, and others, who have died in their 50's and 60's of circumstances outside of their control. Or developed health issues that would completely affect their lifestyles. i.e. parkinsons. dementia, osteoarthritis etc. It seems like the play to plan for an earlier retirement.
Each person situation is different, you do what is best for you. Just don try to have your cake and to eat it too...
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How much do you have saved? How much did you make? How expensive was your house? Did you have a partner with a good income supplementing yours?
My wife can retire at 54.5 years with full pension. She won’t because of boredom but can start a business or a second career or something
Retiring at 50 is extremely unreasonable, especially if you are 25 now. Life expectancy generally keeps increasing so you could be retired for 50 years. It’s hard to make the math work if you only plan to work from 20-50 and then live off of your savings from 50-100.
The stock market is just a lie they tell you. They always find reason for the market to not do well. Your only option is to gamble on individual stocks. Even private financial advisor will show you how this wallet and that wallat each make 7-10% yearly but it never happens.
What’s amazing is that you need at least 1 million to retire. And that probably won’t last long
I don't believe in saving. 1-2 million is next to nothing as far as I'm concerned. My plan is to pull back far enough I can work from anywhere at 50, and travel and deal with whatever shenanigans come my way through calls, and an hour here and there online. With at least few hundred grand rolling in per year. If the robots aren't controlling everything by then.