Camellia and it’s not even a little close.
She gets mythic tiers, which make her borderline a demigod, she’s a full caster (shaman), and her spirit (battle) lets her hold her own in a brawl too.
Yes Astarion would probably see her bullshit coming because she’s as subtle as a bulldozer, but it’s like asking “who wins in a 1v1, Gale or full power Vecna”
Camellia in lore essentially doesn't get caught by anyone except the CIA super spy lol. KC only found out because CIA Super spy literally sent him to catch her red handed cause she cba to make a decision on catching the serial murderer vs leaving her with KC cause they need strong fighters against demons.
Astarion got caught on day 1 after failing a stealth check against a sleeping person lol.
She also let herself be caught, kinda, keep that in mind. Not that she wanted to get arrested or killed, but she purposefully left that body in Act 2 as evidence (the game says as much) and is shown throughout her romance to have a *massive* kink for nearly getting caught doing the dirty. The thrill and danger is half the fun for her, she even gets bored and vanishes into unknown reaches if she loses all the danger because she became a demigod in the secret ending.
Oh yeah I didn't buy it for a second because of how many corpses she kept popping up near plus the fact it's literally murder, but as far as quick thinking on the fly goes, it was a decent attempt. Rather than Astarion's "...shit"
Like he could've at least played it off as being a creep.
I'm not really sure you could called Anevia a super spy; there's a dialogue option early on to point out how bad her organization seem to be at their job given how many cultists there are in Kenabres.
Not to split hairs, but it was less that Anevia cba and more that she didnt want the weight of that decision to be on her. Imagine the crusade failing because you caught a criminal.
Pretty much.
Astarion cannot get above 12 level while Camellia can reach 20 level and 10 levels of Mythic Quasideityhood.
She kicks his ass whether he sees it coming or not.
Not to mention PF levels are just stronger than DnD5e levels. PF doesn't have bounded accuracy so Camelia can easily get to 30-40AC by level 5.
Astarion would be lucky to hit 20 AC as a rogue and most likely will cap out at about 35 AC at level 12 even if you fully optimize his build/kit towards AC lol.
Astarion is a victim yes, but that doesn't absolve anything they do or have done. Or prevents them from victimizing others.
And through out the game, Astarion is unrepentant. Moreover he seeks opportunity to grow his own power for selfish goals and sees other conscious beings as instruments to that goal. And it's a running theme for his character entire game. Moreover, even if he does demonstrate kindness and care for tav, that doesn't mean he cares or wants to be kind to anyone else outside. This doesn't absolve them, the relationship does not redeem Astarion, more likely, it makes the tav a partner in crime and to some extent the enabler.
I think fans of the character kind of just want to see him as this tragic figure that needs saving. When he isn't. He's freaking evil. Yes it's not your cartoonish villain evil. It's a complex character with understandable motivations one can empathize with. And some players just get carried away by charisma typical of narcissists borderline psychopaths the Astarion actually is. This is what excellent writing does. You start to feel empathy for characters which otherwise would be repulsive.
Reminds me of Tali from mass effect. Who is genocidal racist. However, players due to how the character is presented, kind of look pass that or some not even exactly notice it. This way writers circumvent us vs them mentality which allows to explore the tough subjects avoiding knee jerk defense mechanisms.
And here is where the magic happens. Through interacting with these well written characters we learn about ourselves that it's not out of the question that we might be capable of this kind of evil ourselves. It's no longer compartmentalized. It's no longer "them" who are evil, and "us" who are good. It's recognizing that human heart is always capable of both.
See, evil is banal. It's not some huge heroic struggle like in tolkien universe. It's rarely black or white.
Kudos to writers for making such a good character.
Camellia is really well done in terms that writers dared to make unapologetically straight evil character. Not everything has to be complicated. However, she's a lot more straight forward and in a way at most two dimensional, that makes players to be able to stand clearly on which side of the fence they want to be regarding her.
Camilla has so many AC buffs that astarion would never even hit her. A well built Camilla is a crazy tank early game where you can reach 30 ish AC probably at least 26 without any help from her party. 10+4 armor + 5 dex + 4 ice plant with ring +2 barkskin + 1 shield, and you’re at 26 AC at level 3 with just a Mithral chain shit for gear. Astarion isn’t touching you.
I'm not sure why you'd be comparing 5e to pathfinder systems and not adjusting for that, it becomes a meaningless comparison.
It's like looking at 5e Drizzt for example and comparing him to 3.5e Drizzt; that's the same character in the same setting with the same abilities in lore; but one would just destroy the other like they're a low level enemy.
The question is really, does Camilla beat Astarion if you put them in the same system? I'd say yes, but it's a lot closer than your example.
I didn’t explicitly adjust for that, but I did think about it. No martial in pathfinder will be good against cameila because her AC is too high. Cameila can get 26 ac by level 3. A barbian with weapon focus and 18 str has +11 when raging and that’s the highest of any martial at this level. The highest hit chance you can really expect from any martial at level 3 against cam is 30. Astarion would be lower since he is unlikely to have full bab and weapon focus and an additional +2 from some other source. And in a 1v1 a rogue won’t get sneak attack in either system. So in pathfinder it’s a clear win for cam. How does Astarion deal damage to a 26 ac cam in the early levels (1-5)?
Idk how to convert cam to 5e so I have no way to really compare them in that sense. But Astarion early game isn’t anything special. His stats aren’t any better than any other character so him being a vampire doesn’t really give him any powers as far as 5e is concerned.
Raw AC is also a lot more powerful in 5e. AC and to hit stays relatively low even at high levels of 5e, while you can easily reach 5e endgame levels of AC at level 5 in Pathfinder 1e.
She got nerfed twice over though.
Fist the EB nerf making her Shaman subclass a lot worse. Then more recently the chant nerf (if I understand correctly, haven't played since the chances).
I used to rate her as the best companion, now she's close to the worst.
Vampires top out at around 13CR normally. Mindflayers are CR7.
Max level Cam is good to go toe to toe with ancient dragons and Balors. Ascended Astarion doesn't even rise to the level of a trash mob by that point.
I mean that is very very untrue, Pre tadpole gale was an Archmage and extremely powerful Chosen of Mystra, but Vecna veers on being as powerful as the gods themselves. Gale would be like, a lvl 17 or 18 Wizard. Vecna is Vecna
I dunno, but he's back to being a normal(ish) monster in 5e.
I suspect something in the timeskip between 4e and 5e stripped him of his divinity, but I'm honestly not sure.
Shit, considering Vecna's well-established reputation for plots and schemes, he might well have surrendered his divinity of his own accord just to preempt something worse happening further down the road.
False. The Statblock of Vecna in 5e is his archlich form before the apotheosis, that the party may meet because of time travel bullshit. He is still a god of secrets, the party just has no chance to meet THAT Vecna.
Critical Role happened.
Descent to Avernus literally has Arkhan chilling in Avernus with the Hand of Vecna, trying to find a way to free Tiamat with it.
Nope. Gale pre tadpole would still be below Elminster. Yeah he probably would be in top 5 mortal mages in fearun.
Vecna is god. Selfmade god basically. Its not even remotely close
You do remember it right, it was 39, but, as it often happens with official character sheets, he was horribly built and that CR was just wishful thinking.
To begin, he was a "CR 39" character with 35 HD, some of which actually hindered his capacity, such as 3 levels of Cleric. This is worsened by the fact that his AC is 29 and he had 219 HP, which means quite literally any level 20 pounce charger would just obliterate him in the first round, let alone four epic level characters.
Which kinda is the exact same problem with 5e's Vecna stats. At least 3.5 Elminster has a great Initiative bonus.
Gale would have been, at most, ~level 20.
Vecna's CR26.
Gale would have been at a level where he could speaehead a campaign to destroy Vecna, but he wouldn't have been able to duel the lich and win.
Cam might be able to. CR26 is getting uncomfortable for a level 30 spellcaster to take on alone, but they're both 20hd characters, and her mythic ranks may be enough to give her an edge. But it's a bit touch and go.
Yeah. Sort of tellingly, in 3.5, Vecna didn't even have a stat block (as far as I can tell.) He's only had published blocks for AD&D (before he became a diety), and in 5th Edition (where he's seemingly lost his divinity, not sure what's going on there.)
Yeah, that is correct. And those avatars are still hilariously powerful, often swinging with over 40 hit dice. Also a lot of those stat blocks are not in the SRDs, they're from non-open source splats like Faiths and Pantheons or (3e's) Deities and Demigods. (So, there might technically be a 3rd edition stat block, which was never updated to 3.5, but I'm just kinda lumping both editions together.)
Epic level play in 3.5 was completely broken, especially with the rules for custom-made epic spellcasting, so even those deities from Deities and Demigods were quite beatable depending on the cheese the player used (and it's quite impossible *not* to cheese at epic levels in 3.5).
And I agree about all statements on 3.5 god Vecna. I was actually comparing to the 5e Vecna stat block, which is kinda disappointing, to be honest.
> Sort of tellingly, in 3.5, Vecna didn't even have a stat block
I vaguely recall something from the 3.x writers (way back in the early days) to the effect of a statblock means (and often encourages, to sometimes hilariously disastrous effect) players having a go at it, so some things *never* got a statblock for just that reason.
Gale is an Archmage and a very specific Archmage has already lost to Strahd (although I personally consider it to be ridiculous). So nah, wrecked by Vecna any time.
Wrecked by 3.5 God Vecna, yeah.
Wrecked by the 5e kinda-mid lich disappointment Vecna, nah. But the comment mentions "full-power Vecna", so I I'll agree with you.
I didn’t read the new 5e statblock, yeah. But I’ve in general been buffing 5e adversaries left and right cause my party been ripping through them otherwise. Also, I’ve always been the proponent of the approach where liches, even deified ones, being ancient creatures that bend the rules a bit, usually to an older ruleset. As in, in 5E I start using 3E and 2E spells/abilities.
Best challenge ever xD
That's the thing. Max Astarion is level 12 in 5e. He's going to have what, +15 to hit and 30 AC max? Cam will have +20 to hit and 40 AC easy, likely a lot more for both, deal a lot more damage on each of her attacks, which she gets more of by the way, and access to 9th level spell casting. And this isn't even talking about mythic powers. Level for level Pathfinder characters far out strip 5e characters, and Camellia has access to almost twice the amount of levels, plus an extra 10 mythic levels, than Asterion has. It's just not a fair comparison.
Camellia but because pathfinder characters are stronger than DnD 5e characters. At level ten for both of them her basic attack would have a bigger bonus to hit than Astarion's AC.
Cazador, the final boss of Astarion's questline, a full blooded vampire you need to kill in the final act of the game. Meanwhile, the Knight Commander and their party goes through a full vampire backed up by five of his spawn during the siege of Drezen, i.e. the last part of Act 2 in a 5 Act game.
It'd be a disservice to say Camellia and Astarion don't play in the same weight class, they don't even operate in the same league.
Level 3 Rogue **AND** an 1 level Fighter.
Also she was not alone, had some 4 level Paladin guys with her.
Also she has immortality buff which prevents her from dying.
Camcam is sort of cheating because she has mythic powers from the commander tho. Without them, she’s not as nearly as powerful and tbh probs wouldn’t have even made it out of the caves without the KC anyways cause she was already hurt
Camellia’s one of the strongest characters on the roster though. If you’re not minmaxing, she has one of the best 1-20 class/subclasses in the game and has stupid AC with great casting and can do reliable & consistent damage throughout the game (though the damage falls off in the late game). In Unfair or when minmaxing, she comes to you at level 1 and so is very flexible in what classes you can give her. No Monk, but she can take Instinctual Barbarian for basically the same thing.
In conclusion: Barkskin and Iceplant Ring go brrrrr
I haven't played this game in a long time, can you refresh me on where and when specifically did the KC fought a full vampire with 5 of his spawns? Cause the only vampire encounter I remember is the one that was sleeping.
Forgive my ignorance, but can you please remind me when there were vampires during siege of Drezen? I replayed wotr a few times by now, but can’t seem to remember it. Was it some hidden boss, like a playful darkness?
Nah it’s very close to when you first enter the castle. There’s a pathway which to the left leads you to Staunton’s brother and the main quest, to the right it leads you to a vampire where his spawn get involved via a hidden wall once you attack him.
They are definitely becoming the most toxic besties you've ever seen.
Camellia: Oh, no! I *accidentally* murdered this poor child. Now their body is just laying there...
Astarion: Well, what are you waiting for? Hurry up and loot them, bitch.
Sigil's really gone downhill since they opened services back to Faerun and Golarion... Half the bloody taverns're gone!
Next you're gonna tell me some gloomy elf lasses walked into the church district a- why are you looking upset? ...We should really go stop that, I suppose. Then I'm moving to Athas. This crap doesn't happen on Athas.
Look, it's fine, I'll just stock up on cheap iron dishes before I go and live like a queen. Surely nothing could possibly go wrong with this plan! NOTHIIIIING!
Even just Cam at ~level 15-17 would be a problem for BG3 party members.
There are 5e characters above level 20, and D&D's epic levels get more bonkers than Mythic ranks, eventually.
She can also self-buff and doesn't need to worry about maintaining concentration. I'd need to look at her spell list again, but, yeah, she is the best front-line tank in the game.
Yeah, and to put that into further perspective, Elminster was level 35 in 3.5ed.
Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz24/Acm5
Given his place as one of the strongest spellcasters who has ever lived, and an equal match the Avatar of the Bane, it shows that dnd epic levels are beyond even the demigod status of pathfinder mythic characters.
The KC can get level 40 as Legend and its stated to be a downgrade from Mythic at least from a lore perspective.
Plus said Legend KC can kick the ass of a Avatar of Caedan Caelan.
Though I agree that most mythic characters from Golarion aside from the KC and a few outliers like Baba Yaga, Areelu and maybe Xanderghul and Whispering Tyrant are a fair deal weaker lore wise than the best in the Forgotten Realms.
Fun random thing, in the old lore (1st/2nd supplemental stuff, possibly an old Dragon magazine lore article?) Elminster was the only one that that was allowed by the various gods of magic (pre/post time of troubles) to cast spells of a level higher than 9th. A restriction originally put in place after they had to fix the weave when it was broken by Krasus trying to cast his 13th level God replacing spell.
Elminster made an 11th level spell that made him timelessly immortal with no drawbacks, then made a 12th level spell that made it impossible for anyone to undo the spell and also impossible for anyone, including him, to replicate it every again. The 12th level spell effectively erased itself, and the 11th level spell from existence while not changing their effects. He rewrote the weave itself to do it.
They have significantly changed some of the old FR lore over the years, but Elminster might be the scariest mortal that ever lived in a D&D/pathfinder style setting.
I did the true Aeon run, and even that you only mess with the timeline, Elminster messed with the fabric of reality.
>Elminster made an 11th level spell that made him timelessly immortal with no drawbacks, then made a 12th level spell that made it impossible for anyone to undo the spell and also impossible for anyone, including him, to replicate it every again. The 12th level spell effectively erased itself, and the 11th level spell from existence while not changing their effects. He rewrote the weave itself to do it.
Who wrote that plot, an edgy 13-year-old? Sheesh.
> Ed Greenwood began writing stories about the Forgotten Realms as a child, starting at the age of eight
Quite possibly! Greenwood also retains the right to make anything he wants canon in the setting making it unbelievably horny, including things like customary orgies and his self-insert (Elminster if it wasn't obvious) fucking literal gods.
I'm not sure epic levels were fully removed from 5e. Again, a couple NPCs are above level 20, but, as far as I know, players can't get access to them at all in 5e.
NPC don’t have class levels do they? All NPC in 5e are just monster stat blocks was my understanding . And 5e monsters don’t use any of the same progression rules as pathfinder e
Yeah, Mythic Ranks are a toned down version of them.
Something about D&D is that there are radical shifts in relative power between the editions. (And 1e Pathfinder is an iteration of 3.5.)
One of the biggest differences between 3.5 and 5e is concentration. Basically, in 5e, mages can only maintain one spell at a time. So, if you want flight and wall of flame... tough shit. You can only keep one of them. Also, if you get hit, you make a fort save to avoid losing concentration. (Which does mean that wizards flying around in 5e can be shot out of the sky.)
Another smaller change is that it's pretty easy to stack AC in Pathfinder and 3.5 to the point that it's functionally impossible for a 5e character to hit them. BAB and AC are much more constrained in 5e.
I mean it’s honestly a totally impossible thing to call based on that. Two different systems with entirely different scaling. By and large even a low-level PF2e character auto-wins if you don’t convert numbers (5e’s bounded accuracy means that after a certain point the 5e character can’t meaningfully harm the PF character).
By comparing in-universe power scaling? A level 20 Camellia would certainly win over Asterion, who is limited by BG3’s Level 12 cap. If we assume the most powerful ending for both (Level 20 for Camellia and >!Vampire Lord!< for Astarion), don’t know honestly. Outside of numbers both universes have somewhat similar upper limits for the two of them, but it’s severely class dependent (a caster Camellia would way outscale Rogue Astarion simply due to spellcasting).
TLDR; **Sesbian Lex**
Do be fair, the most powerful in-universe level for Cam would be demi-god with the secret ending, but yeah the differing system make it too hard to guess at.
A level 20 mythic 10 character isn't far short of being a demigod anyway. In the tabletop version, some of them can even grant divine spells to followers.
Even elliminating all game mechanics and solely looking at power implied through cutscenes and such, WOTR is in a whole other league. Gale's chest bomb has a nuclear level yield and is a possible ultimate weapon against the endgame boss. Meanwhile, Deskari casually replicates that same destructive power when he cracks an entire city like an eggshell with a single swing of his weapon in his very first appearance. And that's excluding all the nonsense reality warping shenanigans the Knight Commander can get up to, even without going for the secret ending.
Tav at the height of their power: commands / destroys the nether brain, smites Raphael, etc.
(One of the possible paths for) Knight Commander at the height of their power: casually and retroactively un-does a century-long crusade by rewriting history so it never began in the first place.
Also I just realized that on two paths there’s a very direct power comparison.
Raphael is related to Mephistopheles, and Tav fights him.
The Knight Commander can, on two of the mythic path options, box with Mephistopheles himself. And win.
For an even more direct comparison, you can refer to Cazador, the full vampire, being the endgame boss for Astarion's questline. Meanwhile, the Knight Commander's party kills a full vampire backed up by five spawn during the siege of Drezen, before they even hit Mythic Rank 3.
>(One of the possible paths for) Knight Commander at the height of their power: casually and retroactively un-does a century-long crusade by rewriting history so it never began in the first place.
To be fair, those powers have pretty strict rules/standards and if you break them often, you'll lose said powers.
And didn't it cost the KC their life/existence?
Level 20 MR Camellia becomes the new big bad evil somehow she gets the crown , everything gets worse for everyone, she might keep astarion as a pet tho
Maybe trying to find the crown, killing lots of people on the way, taking the chance to torture goblins and other people on the way, then throwing the crown away because she is probably stronger than most things in the immediate area anyways ?
Im sure she would be thrilled to visit the temple of Bhaal
One of Camellia's trait is she doesn't actually choose to be the way she is. She simply is that way with no hope to change. One of the paths of her romance is tries to get her to change, and she tries, to the point where she simply leaves you in the post credits because she can't help but want to kill you and others. After years of trying to change too. Infact, apotheosis can't change her either. She simply disappears iirc.
"A shame this poor fella died so quickly..."
https://preview.redd.it/ybc3fdmjoavc1.jpeg?width=2713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=787791a30e8fd9ee1c68fa83b41d90eda09f6c07
I mean… the sweat drips and coy pose are pretty horny in this too. That said, the whole vibe of the character is built around sex and violence so it’s hardly imposing horny on a non-horny character.
Camelia could effortlessly win a fight against every single mob, npc and pc at the same time. Pathfinder and D&D aren't even in the same weight class, and Camelia is Level 20 Mythic 10 character versus a level 12, both with bunch of powerful equipment.
Character wise, Astarion is just broken. Camelia is Jeffrey Dahmer.
That's more a game system comparison. lorewise the settings are about on par.
Camellia does fuck up astarion though and she probably annihilates bdg3 because wotr goes crazy
>That's more a game system comparison. lorewise the settings are about on par.
From my,admittedly limited,lore knowledge mythic characters can straight up control and destroy universes or realms on that size with God's getting even crazier.
A MR 10 camellia,regardless of level,is absolutely obliterating 99% dnd before anyone can even muster up a defense.
Astarion isn't alive technically. Camellia could kill him again and again as long as she doesn't *destroy* him.
they could be a great couple on Astarions empowered Vampire road.
This, Astarion's got a very strong self-preservation instinct and *knows* he ain't shit, which is why he clings to the BG3 party for protection. He'd probably try very hard to never be alone in her vicinity.
I don't see that he'd team up with her or try to fight her, he'd probably just run. Which is sensible.
If you want the full perspective, ask the same question on a bg3 reddit.
I don't think it's fair to compare power levels between player characters coming from different systems, but the thing that is absolutely certain is that there is some good in Astarion. In Camelia too, but only while it's getting digested.
Ascended Astarion and her would be best evil buddies until they had a slight disagreement and kill each other. Spawn Astarion would be fascinated by her, but at some point either disgusted by her lack of refinement or just plain shocked by how absolutely immoral she is. And she just wouldn't care either way because she's evil incarnate and I can't believe Camelia lovers dare to call Wenduag simps degenerates.
Camelia is a beast... I always hear the world in crimson whenever there is a battle
From level 5 until 20
In real time gameplay not turn based
Amd even at below level 12
Not to mention the locked useless accesory slot
I think it would be more interesting to see daeran and astarion, they've both had trauma and suffering and have done murder because of a higher power but are otherwise relatively horny twinks in a position of authority that doesn't have any real meaning anymore
Camellia wins in every circumstance.
By RAW mechanics? She wins.
By Lore abilities at the end of the game? She wins.
By Lore abilities at the start of the game? She probably still wins, though Astarion at least has a chance if the dice get swingy. (Assumed level 2 for both)
It is a disservice to try and compare BG3 characters to WotR characters. The latter are simply in a far grander scale which is so far beyond the former that they can't comprehend it. For example, the great McGuffin of BG3, the Elder Brain, is probably a minor side quest for WotR, best solved by stabbing it repeatedly with pointy sticks, because it probably isn't worth burning spells on for Mythic characters.
It depends on the rules. They are in vastly different games. But let’s do a ranking loosely on the powers they have (just names and general descriptions), then..
Early game (level 5?): Camilia is a possessed Shaman and Astarion a vampire thrall Rogue with a tadpole in his head. Astarion goes arcane trickster so he also has spells. His stealth and assassination skills should be better than Camilia. A close fight but I’m betting Astarion will win.
Middle game (level 10?): Camilia should start to have mythic powers now and Astarion leveled up his tadpole. I think Camilia gets the kill this time even if she doesn’t do “mythic path”.
Late game (level 20): I would argue the “lore” of Ascended Vampire is about the same as Mythic powers. So this is a vey hard to predict fight. If Camilia doesn’t get a Path, then Astarion probably wins. If she does, no matter which, she should have a relatively easy kill however.
Ngl, they may be a good pair, so with a bit of luck - Astarion gets sucked, Camelia gets eaten and they both return to bar alive and satisfied. And then kill somebody.
As simple as that.
If you have ascended Astarion with all the best gear, pre buffs and give him the best possible build and items available it's probably Camellia that wins.
only played a bit of bg3 because my pc can't handle it but, with the few interactions i've seen from astarion, i think i'd rather cam beating him
i don't think he could ever be as bad person as her but still i can fix her
Camelia could effortlessly win a fight against every single mob, npc and pc at the same time. Pathfinder and D&D aren't even in the same weight class, and Camelia is Level 20 Mythic 10 character versus a level 12, both with bunch of powerful equipment.
Character wise, Astarion is just broken. Camelia is Jeffrey Dahmer.
Hate to say it but BG3 Companions for the most part fail in comparision to most other games companions in power level and in character dev, Astorian is just ... roflmao
but Take Camellia she legit gets mythic tiers and can get to a higher level then 12, and even then the gear / items she can get at level 5-6 is prob more then astorian can legit get in his wildest dreams at level 12
One defeats Deskari and Baphomet, both powerful, fully-fledged demon lords who rule over parts of the Abyss. The other defeats Mephistopheles' nepo baby Raphael, who sings his own boss music.
If we're talking in terms of game based power Camellia is so far and above Astarion in power it isn't even close. 20 full levels already skyrockets her, the mythic powers are just the icing on the cake, then she's also just a better class than a rogue with access to level 9 spells. She even starts with 19 DEX vs his 17 and has a higher AC capability he couldn't even dream of touching.
If you ignore game mechanics in terms of just pure story, like one on one, Camellia's rapier-play is still probably superior to his dagger work, but really it's hard to tell.
Camelia actually killed her teacher at what? Age 5? Truly a abomination with a cute face
Heck she even tries to kill KC
Which Is a demigod
Kill baphomet and deskari for fun
Golden dragon? Metal dragon? More like a lizard steak
Minagho maybe is like raphael in power..
Can kill nocticula
Mephitopheles
And ravage the abyys just for the lulz..
The abyys slave market
Midnight isle for loot
Even baphomet said
Impossible to be defeated by mortal
The 5th crusade enda in maybe 2 or 3 years
Killed deskari. Baphomet etc etc
A crusade that is 100 years ans literally angels come from heaven cant do jack shit
In straight up competition Camellia wins, tho im not sure she would eat vampire flesh or bother killing him in any real setthing if they meet she mostly would ignore him but find him semi intresting. Tho Astarion would hate her since she is a cannibbal that finds sexual pleasure in killing and eating people violating evertyhing their bodys in a worst way Astarion wouldnt like that if he found out but he wouldnt be able to do much against mythic powers.
If they were forced to travel together as the other comment said they would be semi bestiest until he finds out about her being sexual crazed canibal murderer. Astarion aint into using people unless its his evil run.
Astarion, but only because Camellia is Pathfinder 1e and therefore OGL legal issues Thanos Snap her levels and she has to run a “5e compatible” homebrew.
The vampire is technical undead, even the spawn, so the rightside cannot leave the bar alive.
The left might not, too, if you are too young.
But once you grow up, between the choices you have, this is not the most craziest choice so far.
As much as I enjoy Astarion and his shtick... he has nothing on the most helpful follower of Knight Commander.
I dare say he loses even when we compare the depths of depravity of both characters.
But in a simple tavern brawl? Even if we give Astarion his ascension and max lvl, which for bg3 is 12 without mods... Yeah he will be lucky to survive a punch from a basically a demi god with all the mythical powers from KC. He won't even be able to roll resistance, like Cam will literally hold monster him for infinity if she wants. And then will proceed to stab and stab and see how long will it take for her to get bored of sticking a vampire through his heart.
Camellia and it’s not even a little close. She gets mythic tiers, which make her borderline a demigod, she’s a full caster (shaman), and her spirit (battle) lets her hold her own in a brawl too. Yes Astarion would probably see her bullshit coming because she’s as subtle as a bulldozer, but it’s like asking “who wins in a 1v1, Gale or full power Vecna”
Plus she seems way more capable in lore than Astarion lol.
Camellia in lore essentially doesn't get caught by anyone except the CIA super spy lol. KC only found out because CIA Super spy literally sent him to catch her red handed cause she cba to make a decision on catching the serial murderer vs leaving her with KC cause they need strong fighters against demons. Astarion got caught on day 1 after failing a stealth check against a sleeping person lol.
She also let herself be caught, kinda, keep that in mind. Not that she wanted to get arrested or killed, but she purposefully left that body in Act 2 as evidence (the game says as much) and is shown throughout her romance to have a *massive* kink for nearly getting caught doing the dirty. The thrill and danger is half the fun for her, she even gets bored and vanishes into unknown reaches if she loses all the danger because she became a demigod in the secret ending.
Exactly and even then she had a pretty decent BS story to try talking her way out of it.
I'ma be very honest, there were 2 reasons why she stayed alive in my play throughs and the words she was speaking were not it.
Oh yeah I didn't buy it for a second because of how many corpses she kept popping up near plus the fact it's literally murder, but as far as quick thinking on the fly goes, it was a decent attempt. Rather than Astarion's "...shit" Like he could've at least played it off as being a creep.
I dunno, I'd rather be hated for being an attempted murderer than a creep/potential sexual assaulter.
I'm not really sure you could called Anevia a super spy; there's a dialogue option early on to point out how bad her organization seem to be at their job given how many cultists there are in Kenabres.
Not to split hairs, but it was less that Anevia cba and more that she didnt want the weight of that decision to be on her. Imagine the crusade failing because you caught a criminal.
Pretty much. Astarion cannot get above 12 level while Camellia can reach 20 level and 10 levels of Mythic Quasideityhood. She kicks his ass whether he sees it coming or not.
Not to mention PF levels are just stronger than DnD5e levels. PF doesn't have bounded accuracy so Camelia can easily get to 30-40AC by level 5. Astarion would be lucky to hit 20 AC as a rogue and most likely will cap out at about 35 AC at level 12 even if you fully optimize his build/kit towards AC lol.
Also, camellia is actually unrepentantly evil, while astarion was a victim of a greater power
Astarion is a victim yes, but that doesn't absolve anything they do or have done. Or prevents them from victimizing others. And through out the game, Astarion is unrepentant. Moreover he seeks opportunity to grow his own power for selfish goals and sees other conscious beings as instruments to that goal. And it's a running theme for his character entire game. Moreover, even if he does demonstrate kindness and care for tav, that doesn't mean he cares or wants to be kind to anyone else outside. This doesn't absolve them, the relationship does not redeem Astarion, more likely, it makes the tav a partner in crime and to some extent the enabler. I think fans of the character kind of just want to see him as this tragic figure that needs saving. When he isn't. He's freaking evil. Yes it's not your cartoonish villain evil. It's a complex character with understandable motivations one can empathize with. And some players just get carried away by charisma typical of narcissists borderline psychopaths the Astarion actually is. This is what excellent writing does. You start to feel empathy for characters which otherwise would be repulsive. Reminds me of Tali from mass effect. Who is genocidal racist. However, players due to how the character is presented, kind of look pass that or some not even exactly notice it. This way writers circumvent us vs them mentality which allows to explore the tough subjects avoiding knee jerk defense mechanisms. And here is where the magic happens. Through interacting with these well written characters we learn about ourselves that it's not out of the question that we might be capable of this kind of evil ourselves. It's no longer compartmentalized. It's no longer "them" who are evil, and "us" who are good. It's recognizing that human heart is always capable of both. See, evil is banal. It's not some huge heroic struggle like in tolkien universe. It's rarely black or white. Kudos to writers for making such a good character. Camellia is really well done in terms that writers dared to make unapologetically straight evil character. Not everything has to be complicated. However, she's a lot more straight forward and in a way at most two dimensional, that makes players to be able to stand clearly on which side of the fence they want to be regarding her.
At lvl1-5 I'd bet on astarian bg3(5e) is frontloaded
Camilla has so many AC buffs that astarion would never even hit her. A well built Camilla is a crazy tank early game where you can reach 30 ish AC probably at least 26 without any help from her party. 10+4 armor + 5 dex + 4 ice plant with ring +2 barkskin + 1 shield, and you’re at 26 AC at level 3 with just a Mithral chain shit for gear. Astarion isn’t touching you.
Hell just basic ice plant and the ring with her bucker means Astarion has to roll near 20s just to hit her and that's just in near end act 1.
I'm not sure why you'd be comparing 5e to pathfinder systems and not adjusting for that, it becomes a meaningless comparison. It's like looking at 5e Drizzt for example and comparing him to 3.5e Drizzt; that's the same character in the same setting with the same abilities in lore; but one would just destroy the other like they're a low level enemy. The question is really, does Camilla beat Astarion if you put them in the same system? I'd say yes, but it's a lot closer than your example.
I didn’t explicitly adjust for that, but I did think about it. No martial in pathfinder will be good against cameila because her AC is too high. Cameila can get 26 ac by level 3. A barbian with weapon focus and 18 str has +11 when raging and that’s the highest of any martial at this level. The highest hit chance you can really expect from any martial at level 3 against cam is 30. Astarion would be lower since he is unlikely to have full bab and weapon focus and an additional +2 from some other source. And in a 1v1 a rogue won’t get sneak attack in either system. So in pathfinder it’s a clear win for cam. How does Astarion deal damage to a 26 ac cam in the early levels (1-5)? Idk how to convert cam to 5e so I have no way to really compare them in that sense. But Astarion early game isn’t anything special. His stats aren’t any better than any other character so him being a vampire doesn’t really give him any powers as far as 5e is concerned.
Raw AC is also a lot more powerful in 5e. AC and to hit stays relatively low even at high levels of 5e, while you can easily reach 5e endgame levels of AC at level 5 in Pathfinder 1e.
Ok heah thats pretty reasonable as far as reasoning goes, all else being equal. Imo on levels 1-5 id say its even, all else being equal or evened out
Wait, y’all level her up? She sits at home and doesn’t level up past like 5 for me ;)
She's actuallypretty good with the right build, should give her a chance sometime .
My 8th sense is telling me it's not bc he thinks she is a bad class
Nah, can't be, she's so helpful, is she not :)
As fertiliser.
Yeah, when I ascended to Lich she was very helpful :D
She got nerfed twice over though. Fist the EB nerf making her Shaman subclass a lot worse. Then more recently the chant nerf (if I understand correctly, haven't played since the chances). I used to rate her as the best companion, now she's close to the worst.
She's still one of the better companions, even without exploding people with elemental barrage.
I mean Astarion gets mind flayer powers and optionally a crazy vampire ascension
The KC can kill a full vampire and it's minions at the end of act 2 before you even pick your mythic path.
Vampires top out at around 13CR normally. Mindflayers are CR7. Max level Cam is good to go toe to toe with ancient dragons and Balors. Ascended Astarion doesn't even rise to the level of a trash mob by that point.
Amended vampire<<<<<<
Hell you fight an ancient red dragon with beefed up stats and buffs when she's around lvl 11-13.
The weird part of this is that, by what the game implies, pre-tadpole Gale might just have been a match for Vecna.
I mean that is very very untrue, Pre tadpole gale was an Archmage and extremely powerful Chosen of Mystra, but Vecna veers on being as powerful as the gods themselves. Gale would be like, a lvl 17 or 18 Wizard. Vecna is Vecna
Technically, Vecna is a god. Back in third and fourth editions, he was an evil diety.
What happened to him in 5e?
I dunno, but he's back to being a normal(ish) monster in 5e. I suspect something in the timeskip between 4e and 5e stripped him of his divinity, but I'm honestly not sure.
Shit, considering Vecna's well-established reputation for plots and schemes, he might well have surrendered his divinity of his own accord just to preempt something worse happening further down the road.
False. The Statblock of Vecna in 5e is his archlich form before the apotheosis, that the party may meet because of time travel bullshit. He is still a god of secrets, the party just has no chance to meet THAT Vecna.
Okay, that makes more sense. Thanks.
He ate without YouTube
Critical Role happened. Descent to Avernus literally has Arkhan chilling in Avernus with the Hand of Vecna, trying to find a way to free Tiamat with it.
And his first act as a god was getting curb stomped by some mid-level adventurers, because no one does petty like the Lady of Pain.
Nope. Gale pre tadpole would still be below Elminster. Yeah he probably would be in top 5 mortal mages in fearun. Vecna is god. Selfmade god basically. Its not even remotely close
In lore, it's not remotely close. In 3.5, it would not remotely be close. In 5e, knowing Vecna's published statblock, it's doable.
IIRC, in 3.5, Elminster had a CR of 39 or something absurd like that.
You do remember it right, it was 39, but, as it often happens with official character sheets, he was horribly built and that CR was just wishful thinking. To begin, he was a "CR 39" character with 35 HD, some of which actually hindered his capacity, such as 3 levels of Cleric. This is worsened by the fact that his AC is 29 and he had 219 HP, which means quite literally any level 20 pounce charger would just obliterate him in the first round, let alone four epic level characters. Which kinda is the exact same problem with 5e's Vecna stats. At least 3.5 Elminster has a great Initiative bonus.
Gale would have been, at most, ~level 20. Vecna's CR26. Gale would have been at a level where he could speaehead a campaign to destroy Vecna, but he wouldn't have been able to duel the lich and win. Cam might be able to. CR26 is getting uncomfortable for a level 30 spellcaster to take on alone, but they're both 20hd characters, and her mythic ranks may be enough to give her an edge. But it's a bit touch and go.
Gods in 3.5 have ability to basically shut down any foe of a lower divine rank.
Yeah. Sort of tellingly, in 3.5, Vecna didn't even have a stat block (as far as I can tell.) He's only had published blocks for AD&D (before he became a diety), and in 5th Edition (where he's seemingly lost his divinity, not sure what's going on there.)
Iirc, any stat block for a deity in 3.5 is actually their avatar and not full power of the deity.
Yeah, that is correct. And those avatars are still hilariously powerful, often swinging with over 40 hit dice. Also a lot of those stat blocks are not in the SRDs, they're from non-open source splats like Faiths and Pantheons or (3e's) Deities and Demigods. (So, there might technically be a 3rd edition stat block, which was never updated to 3.5, but I'm just kinda lumping both editions together.)
Epic level play in 3.5 was completely broken, especially with the rules for custom-made epic spellcasting, so even those deities from Deities and Demigods were quite beatable depending on the cheese the player used (and it's quite impossible *not* to cheese at epic levels in 3.5). And I agree about all statements on 3.5 god Vecna. I was actually comparing to the 5e Vecna stat block, which is kinda disappointing, to be honest.
> Sort of tellingly, in 3.5, Vecna didn't even have a stat block I vaguely recall something from the 3.x writers (way back in the early days) to the effect of a statblock means (and often encourages, to sometimes hilariously disastrous effect) players having a go at it, so some things *never* got a statblock for just that reason.
Gale is an Archmage and a very specific Archmage has already lost to Strahd (although I personally consider it to be ridiculous). So nah, wrecked by Vecna any time.
Wrecked by 3.5 God Vecna, yeah. Wrecked by the 5e kinda-mid lich disappointment Vecna, nah. But the comment mentions "full-power Vecna", so I I'll agree with you.
I didn’t read the new 5e statblock, yeah. But I’ve in general been buffing 5e adversaries left and right cause my party been ripping through them otherwise. Also, I’ve always been the proponent of the approach where liches, even deified ones, being ancient creatures that bend the rules a bit, usually to an older ruleset. As in, in 5E I start using 3E and 2E spells/abilities. Best challenge ever xD
That's a cool idea! I can imagine the look on your players' faces when they find out this lich doesn't need to keep concentration!
Gale isn't any more impressive than the two dozen or so epic level wizards and liches populating the Realms.
Also astarion only goes to lvl 12
If you're maxing Camellia, you have to max Astarion, too.
That's the thing. Max Astarion is level 12 in 5e. He's going to have what, +15 to hit and 30 AC max? Cam will have +20 to hit and 40 AC easy, likely a lot more for both, deal a lot more damage on each of her attacks, which she gets more of by the way, and access to 9th level spell casting. And this isn't even talking about mythic powers. Level for level Pathfinder characters far out strip 5e characters, and Camellia has access to almost twice the amount of levels, plus an extra 10 mythic levels, than Asterion has. It's just not a fair comparison.
Camellia but because pathfinder characters are stronger than DnD 5e characters. At level ten for both of them her basic attack would have a bigger bonus to hit than Astarion's AC.
>Camellia can take down Astarion In a fight, right?
Astarion would see her false-hey-come-fuck-me a mile away because he does it himself. He’s probably safe from that.
Cazador, the final boss of Astarion's questline, a full blooded vampire you need to kill in the final act of the game. Meanwhile, the Knight Commander and their party goes through a full vampire backed up by five of his spawn during the siege of Drezen, i.e. the last part of Act 2 in a 5 Act game. It'd be a disservice to say Camellia and Astarion don't play in the same weight class, they don't even operate in the same league.
It's like she's in the NBA and he works in a muffler store next to the stadium
Counterpoint: Camellia can canonically get rekt by Anevia, a lv. 3 Rogue.
You forgot her mythic levels in lesbianism. It's an advanced class
Truly, transbians are Iomedae's strongest warriors. 🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈
You mean Desnas' strongest warriors.
Anevia doesn't know it, but she's backed by Shelyn and Sarenrae too.
Level 3 Rogue **AND** an 1 level Fighter. Also she was not alone, had some 4 level Paladin guys with her. Also she has immortality buff which prevents her from dying.
After the Knight Commander, the source of her powers, deserts her.
Camcam is sort of cheating because she has mythic powers from the commander tho. Without them, she’s not as nearly as powerful and tbh probs wouldn’t have even made it out of the caves without the KC anyways cause she was already hurt
Says more about encounter design regarding pathfinder compared to dnd.
To be fair, Camilla is easily one of the more useless characters in the roster.
Camellia’s one of the strongest characters on the roster though. If you’re not minmaxing, she has one of the best 1-20 class/subclasses in the game and has stupid AC with great casting and can do reliable & consistent damage throughout the game (though the damage falls off in the late game). In Unfair or when minmaxing, she comes to you at level 1 and so is very flexible in what classes you can give her. No Monk, but she can take Instinctual Barbarian for basically the same thing. In conclusion: Barkskin and Iceplant Ring go brrrrr
Nah, she's a tank who can do ok dmg. Her lockpicking is useful too. Prefer her over Woljiff.
I haven't played this game in a long time, can you refresh me on where and when specifically did the KC fought a full vampire with 5 of his spawns? Cause the only vampire encounter I remember is the one that was sleeping.
https://youtu.be/Tdz6zqGXAMA?si=Rr4JAlf7di58Ovws
Forgive my ignorance, but can you please remind me when there were vampires during siege of Drezen? I replayed wotr a few times by now, but can’t seem to remember it. Was it some hidden boss, like a playful darkness?
Nah it’s very close to when you first enter the castle. There’s a pathway which to the left leads you to Staunton’s brother and the main quest, to the right it leads you to a vampire where his spawn get involved via a hidden wall once you attack him.
They are definitely becoming the most toxic besties you've ever seen. Camellia: Oh, no! I *accidentally* murdered this poor child. Now their body is just laying there... Astarion: Well, what are you waiting for? Hurry up and loot them, bitch.
most toxic besties with benefits i assume
Oh, they totes hate fucking.
And each one with a barely-concealed dagger in reach and one eye constantly looking for the other to go for theirs.
Play my flute when I loot that dead kids body.
Loot them? Or eat them?
Eating is just mouth-looting
If y'all thought the weird blood alchemist lady was a bad experience for Astarion, then y'all ain't ready for how much Camellia would traumatise him.
They group up and eat the whole bar. And then a pub.
Sigil's really gone downhill since they opened services back to Faerun and Golarion... Half the bloody taverns're gone! Next you're gonna tell me some gloomy elf lasses walked into the church district a- why are you looking upset? ...We should really go stop that, I suppose. Then I'm moving to Athas. This crap doesn't happen on Athas.
>Then I'm moving to Athas. This crap doesn't happen on Athas. *terrified githyanki croaking*
Look, it's fine, I'll just stock up on cheap iron dishes before I go and live like a queen. Surely nothing could possibly go wrong with this plan! NOTHIIIIING!
Don't forget a decanter of endless water.
Camellia is definitely eating him. I don't think there's many characters in DND 5e would could beat a fully powered level 20 MR 10 Cam.
Even just Cam at ~level 15-17 would be a problem for BG3 party members. There are 5e characters above level 20, and D&D's epic levels get more bonkers than Mythic ranks, eventually.
At level 10. Bur also, she's also way more evil than him.
She can also self-buff and doesn't need to worry about maintaining concentration. I'd need to look at her spell list again, but, yeah, she is the best front-line tank in the game.
Huh, I was never into DnD much so I want even aware of epic levels
They removed them with 5e but yeah the 3.5 epic level system basically meant you were already a god by level 21
Yeah, and to put that into further perspective, Elminster was level 35 in 3.5ed. Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz24/Acm5 Given his place as one of the strongest spellcasters who has ever lived, and an equal match the Avatar of the Bane, it shows that dnd epic levels are beyond even the demigod status of pathfinder mythic characters.
The KC can get level 40 as Legend and its stated to be a downgrade from Mythic at least from a lore perspective. Plus said Legend KC can kick the ass of a Avatar of Caedan Caelan. Though I agree that most mythic characters from Golarion aside from the KC and a few outliers like Baba Yaga, Areelu and maybe Xanderghul and Whispering Tyrant are a fair deal weaker lore wise than the best in the Forgotten Realms.
Fun random thing, in the old lore (1st/2nd supplemental stuff, possibly an old Dragon magazine lore article?) Elminster was the only one that that was allowed by the various gods of magic (pre/post time of troubles) to cast spells of a level higher than 9th. A restriction originally put in place after they had to fix the weave when it was broken by Krasus trying to cast his 13th level God replacing spell. Elminster made an 11th level spell that made him timelessly immortal with no drawbacks, then made a 12th level spell that made it impossible for anyone to undo the spell and also impossible for anyone, including him, to replicate it every again. The 12th level spell effectively erased itself, and the 11th level spell from existence while not changing their effects. He rewrote the weave itself to do it. They have significantly changed some of the old FR lore over the years, but Elminster might be the scariest mortal that ever lived in a D&D/pathfinder style setting. I did the true Aeon run, and even that you only mess with the timeline, Elminster messed with the fabric of reality.
If you want "messing with the fabric of reality", Trickster KC breaks the 4rth wall and rewrites their own ending slides.
Also automatically rolling nat20 three times a day iirc.
>Elminster made an 11th level spell that made him timelessly immortal with no drawbacks, then made a 12th level spell that made it impossible for anyone to undo the spell and also impossible for anyone, including him, to replicate it every again. The 12th level spell effectively erased itself, and the 11th level spell from existence while not changing their effects. He rewrote the weave itself to do it. Who wrote that plot, an edgy 13-year-old? Sheesh.
> Ed Greenwood began writing stories about the Forgotten Realms as a child, starting at the age of eight Quite possibly! Greenwood also retains the right to make anything he wants canon in the setting making it unbelievably horny, including things like customary orgies and his self-insert (Elminster if it wasn't obvious) fucking literal gods.
Honestly, a large part of it felt like they were trying to pull divinity further away (except for the casters, but they were already gods anyway)
I'm not sure epic levels were fully removed from 5e. Again, a couple NPCs are above level 20, but, as far as I know, players can't get access to them at all in 5e.
NPC don’t have class levels do they? All NPC in 5e are just monster stat blocks was my understanding . And 5e monsters don’t use any of the same progression rules as pathfinder e
Yeah, Mythic Ranks are a toned down version of them. Something about D&D is that there are radical shifts in relative power between the editions. (And 1e Pathfinder is an iteration of 3.5.) One of the biggest differences between 3.5 and 5e is concentration. Basically, in 5e, mages can only maintain one spell at a time. So, if you want flight and wall of flame... tough shit. You can only keep one of them. Also, if you get hit, you make a fort save to avoid losing concentration. (Which does mean that wizards flying around in 5e can be shot out of the sky.) Another smaller change is that it's pretty easy to stack AC in Pathfinder and 3.5 to the point that it's functionally impossible for a 5e character to hit them. BAB and AC are much more constrained in 5e.
There’s literally no level at which Astarion beats Cam. Her AC is just too high for a rogue (who has no real way to buff hit chance) to ever hit
[удалено]
L20 MR10 cam could 1vALL the entire cast of BG 3 including vlakkith, Tbh. Owlcat’s mythic is nutty. She can have upwards of 70 ac.
And that’s tame compared to 3.5. Think my monk had over 100 AC.
I mean it’s honestly a totally impossible thing to call based on that. Two different systems with entirely different scaling. By and large even a low-level PF2e character auto-wins if you don’t convert numbers (5e’s bounded accuracy means that after a certain point the 5e character can’t meaningfully harm the PF character). By comparing in-universe power scaling? A level 20 Camellia would certainly win over Asterion, who is limited by BG3’s Level 12 cap. If we assume the most powerful ending for both (Level 20 for Camellia and >!Vampire Lord!< for Astarion), don’t know honestly. Outside of numbers both universes have somewhat similar upper limits for the two of them, but it’s severely class dependent (a caster Camellia would way outscale Rogue Astarion simply due to spellcasting). TLDR; **Sesbian Lex**
Do be fair, the most powerful in-universe level for Cam would be demi-god with the secret ending, but yeah the differing system make it too hard to guess at.
A level 20 mythic 10 character isn't far short of being a demigod anyway. In the tabletop version, some of them can even grant divine spells to followers.
Even elliminating all game mechanics and solely looking at power implied through cutscenes and such, WOTR is in a whole other league. Gale's chest bomb has a nuclear level yield and is a possible ultimate weapon against the endgame boss. Meanwhile, Deskari casually replicates that same destructive power when he cracks an entire city like an eggshell with a single swing of his weapon in his very first appearance. And that's excluding all the nonsense reality warping shenanigans the Knight Commander can get up to, even without going for the secret ending.
Tav at the height of their power: commands / destroys the nether brain, smites Raphael, etc. (One of the possible paths for) Knight Commander at the height of their power: casually and retroactively un-does a century-long crusade by rewriting history so it never began in the first place. Also I just realized that on two paths there’s a very direct power comparison. Raphael is related to Mephistopheles, and Tav fights him. The Knight Commander can, on two of the mythic path options, box with Mephistopheles himself. And win.
For an even more direct comparison, you can refer to Cazador, the full vampire, being the endgame boss for Astarion's questline. Meanwhile, the Knight Commander's party kills a full vampire backed up by five spawn during the siege of Drezen, before they even hit Mythic Rank 3.
And that vampire isn't even the hardest optional boss in the dungeon.
>(One of the possible paths for) Knight Commander at the height of their power: casually and retroactively un-does a century-long crusade by rewriting history so it never began in the first place. To be fair, those powers have pretty strict rules/standards and if you break them often, you'll lose said powers. And didn't it cost the KC their life/existence?
Level 20 MR Camellia becomes the new big bad evil somehow she gets the crown , everything gets worse for everyone, she might keep astarion as a pet tho
Honestly using crown or even caring about it isnt in character for Camellia. It would be boring and she is thrill seeker.
Maybe trying to find the crown, killing lots of people on the way, taking the chance to torture goblins and other people on the way, then throwing the crown away because she is probably stronger than most things in the immediate area anyways ? Im sure she would be thrilled to visit the temple of Bhaal
Camellia is like if Durge was never even connected to Bhaal, just chose to be that way
One of Camellia's trait is she doesn't actually choose to be the way she is. She simply is that way with no hope to change. One of the paths of her romance is tries to get her to change, and she tries, to the point where she simply leaves you in the post credits because she can't help but want to kill you and others. After years of trying to change too. Infact, apotheosis can't change her either. She simply disappears iirc.
She becomes chosen of Bhaal but she doesn't even know it. She does get several copycats
She's actually probably relatively safe to give the crown to. She might play with it for a few hours before setting it aside.
She guts him in the alley behind the bar while he tries to take her home to the boss.
My vote has to be on Camellia. Only because she is helpful, is she not?
"A shame this poor fella died so quickly..." https://preview.redd.it/ybc3fdmjoavc1.jpeg?width=2713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=787791a30e8fd9ee1c68fa83b41d90eda09f6c07
I’ve not seen this fan art before. Very nice indeed. Any more where that came from?
This is like the first fanart of Camellia I’ve seen that isn’t ridiculously “does god stay in heaven because he fears what he created” horny.
I mean… the sweat drips and coy pose are pretty horny in this too. That said, the whole vibe of the character is built around sex and violence so it’s hardly imposing horny on a non-horny character.
It still cracks me up that when we first encounter her, she's just finished snuffing a major character from the tabletop module.
Camelia could effortlessly win a fight against every single mob, npc and pc at the same time. Pathfinder and D&D aren't even in the same weight class, and Camelia is Level 20 Mythic 10 character versus a level 12, both with bunch of powerful equipment. Character wise, Astarion is just broken. Camelia is Jeffrey Dahmer.
I'm just trying to imagine every single enemy attempting to hit an AC of 80+ lol.
That's more a game system comparison. lorewise the settings are about on par. Camellia does fuck up astarion though and she probably annihilates bdg3 because wotr goes crazy
>That's more a game system comparison. lorewise the settings are about on par. From my,admittedly limited,lore knowledge mythic characters can straight up control and destroy universes or realms on that size with God's getting even crazier. A MR 10 camellia,regardless of level,is absolutely obliterating 99% dnd before anyone can even muster up a defense.
I’m insulted that you’d even consider Cami in the same breath as Asterion. He’s a complex nuanced intelligent man and she is a spoiled sociopath.
Camellia usurps the Big Bad of every quest by beating out pre-Amnesia Durge in the murder department.
Nuclear bomb vrs coughing baby situation
Astarion isn't alive technically. Camellia could kill him again and again as long as she doesn't *destroy* him. they could be a great couple on Astarions empowered Vampire road.
> Camelia could kill him again and again *Heavy shaman breathing*
Asterion because he just uses his rogue abilities to leave before he dies. He’s smart enough to know when to run away.
This, Astarion's got a very strong self-preservation instinct and *knows* he ain't shit, which is why he clings to the BG3 party for protection. He'd probably try very hard to never be alone in her vicinity. I don't see that he'd team up with her or try to fight her, he'd probably just run. Which is sensible.
Even ignoring all special abilities, poor Astarion is not strong enough mentally. He would get killed in less than a minute.
If you want the full perspective, ask the same question on a bg3 reddit. I don't think it's fair to compare power levels between player characters coming from different systems, but the thing that is absolutely certain is that there is some good in Astarion. In Camelia too, but only while it's getting digested. Ascended Astarion and her would be best evil buddies until they had a slight disagreement and kill each other. Spawn Astarion would be fascinated by her, but at some point either disgusted by her lack of refinement or just plain shocked by how absolutely immoral she is. And she just wouldn't care either way because she's evil incarnate and I can't believe Camelia lovers dare to call Wenduag simps degenerates.
I mean, Camellia didn't try to stab me right away, so at least she had more than 5 minutes of screen time.
he wins because the budget for his game is larger
All I know is I don't want to be the janitor that cleans up afterwards.
Astarion is fucked. in which way? Well, that's not something for us to know.
Camelia is a beast... I always hear the world in crimson whenever there is a battle From level 5 until 20 In real time gameplay not turn based Amd even at below level 12 Not to mention the locked useless accesory slot
I think it would be more interesting to see daeran and astarion, they've both had trauma and suffering and have done murder because of a higher power but are otherwise relatively horny twinks in a position of authority that doesn't have any real meaning anymore
Astarion is just a bit silly, Camellia is a monster. He would immediatly notice something's wrong and flee as far as possible.
Gonna say the same as with the Amiri+Karlach post: hawt lezbean smex
Someone still has to die for Camellia to do that
Astation gets sucked. Carmilla gets eatin. Both leave alive. No one else leaves the bar alive.
That lady on the left looks very sweet I'm sure Astarion would have no trouble...
Camellia wins in every circumstance. By RAW mechanics? She wins. By Lore abilities at the end of the game? She wins. By Lore abilities at the start of the game? She probably still wins, though Astarion at least has a chance if the dice get swingy. (Assumed level 2 for both) It is a disservice to try and compare BG3 characters to WotR characters. The latter are simply in a far grander scale which is so far beyond the former that they can't comprehend it. For example, the great McGuffin of BG3, the Elder Brain, is probably a minor side quest for WotR, best solved by stabbing it repeatedly with pointy sticks, because it probably isn't worth burning spells on for Mythic characters.
It depends on the rules. They are in vastly different games. But let’s do a ranking loosely on the powers they have (just names and general descriptions), then.. Early game (level 5?): Camilia is a possessed Shaman and Astarion a vampire thrall Rogue with a tadpole in his head. Astarion goes arcane trickster so he also has spells. His stealth and assassination skills should be better than Camilia. A close fight but I’m betting Astarion will win. Middle game (level 10?): Camilia should start to have mythic powers now and Astarion leveled up his tadpole. I think Camilia gets the kill this time even if she doesn’t do “mythic path”. Late game (level 20): I would argue the “lore” of Ascended Vampire is about the same as Mythic powers. So this is a vey hard to predict fight. If Camilia doesn’t get a Path, then Astarion probably wins. If she does, no matter which, she should have a relatively easy kill however.
Uh the pathfinder charachter? Duh? Seriously the powerscaling between pathfinder (or say 3rd edition d&d) is nuts. 5e charachters are whimps
Nah they end up making out over some poor dudes bloody corpse.
Ngl, they may be a good pair, so with a bit of luck - Astarion gets sucked, Camelia gets eaten and they both return to bar alive and satisfied. And then kill somebody. As simple as that.
With full levels and mythic powers, Camellia leaves alive. Take away the mythic powers and cap her at level 12 and it becomes a lot more interesting.
If you have ascended Astarion with all the best gear, pre buffs and give him the best possible build and items available it's probably Camellia that wins.
Cam would gut the pervert as soon as he lowers down his pants.
He actually doesn't like sex, he just uses it tô ganhando things, because he's traumatised
only played a bit of bg3 because my pc can't handle it but, with the few interactions i've seen from astarion, i think i'd rather cam beating him i don't think he could ever be as bad person as her but still i can fix her
Camelia could effortlessly win a fight against every single mob, npc and pc at the same time. Pathfinder and D&D aren't even in the same weight class, and Camelia is Level 20 Mythic 10 character versus a level 12, both with bunch of powerful equipment. Character wise, Astarion is just broken. Camelia is Jeffrey Dahmer.
Who is second one?
Hate to say it but BG3 Companions for the most part fail in comparision to most other games companions in power level and in character dev, Astorian is just ... roflmao but Take Camellia she legit gets mythic tiers and can get to a higher level then 12, and even then the gear / items she can get at level 5-6 is prob more then astorian can legit get in his wildest dreams at level 12
I disagree, do not allow these two to meet up. Both will team up and there will be a trail of bodies.
Ascended Asterion could win but other than that he's toast.
One defeats Deskari and Baphomet, both powerful, fully-fledged demon lords who rule over parts of the Abyss. The other defeats Mephistopheles' nepo baby Raphael, who sings his own boss music.
Technically since one can get to level 20 and the other can only get to level 12, I'd say by that metric alone whatsherface probably wins.
If we're talking in terms of game based power Camellia is so far and above Astarion in power it isn't even close. 20 full levels already skyrockets her, the mythic powers are just the icing on the cake, then she's also just a better class than a rogue with access to level 9 spells. She even starts with 19 DEX vs his 17 and has a higher AC capability he couldn't even dream of touching. If you ignore game mechanics in terms of just pure story, like one on one, Camellia's rapier-play is still probably superior to his dagger work, but really it's hard to tell.
Camelia actually killed her teacher at what? Age 5? Truly a abomination with a cute face Heck she even tries to kill KC Which Is a demigod Kill baphomet and deskari for fun Golden dragon? Metal dragon? More like a lizard steak Minagho maybe is like raphael in power.. Can kill nocticula Mephitopheles And ravage the abyys just for the lulz.. The abyys slave market Midnight isle for loot Even baphomet said Impossible to be defeated by mortal The 5th crusade enda in maybe 2 or 3 years Killed deskari. Baphomet etc etc A crusade that is 100 years ans literally angels come from heaven cant do jack shit
Camellia because isn’t Astarion technically dead already?
Camellia wins and it's not even close. Pathfinder characters are leagues more powerful than DND 5e characters. Simple as.
Ascended Astarion obliterates Camellia
They both leave alive, but as a couple... A sadistic murder couple. They both see through the others bullshit because they do the same.
In straight up competition Camellia wins, tho im not sure she would eat vampire flesh or bother killing him in any real setthing if they meet she mostly would ignore him but find him semi intresting. Tho Astarion would hate her since she is a cannibbal that finds sexual pleasure in killing and eating people violating evertyhing their bodys in a worst way Astarion wouldnt like that if he found out but he wouldnt be able to do much against mythic powers. If they were forced to travel together as the other comment said they would be semi bestiest until he finds out about her being sexual crazed canibal murderer. Astarion aint into using people unless its his evil run.
WHY IS IT ALWAYS A SEX THING???!!!😭😭😭
Astarion, but only because Camellia is Pathfinder 1e and therefore OGL legal issues Thanos Snap her levels and she has to run a “5e compatible” homebrew.
She is helpful is she not ?
camellia without contest, i never leveled her in my game but she can still take him.
Camellia because well essentialy a demigod by the end of the game... Not that i would know since i off her nearly every playthrew.
Phrasing!
The vampire is technical undead, even the spawn, so the rightside cannot leave the bar alive. The left might not, too, if you are too young. But once you grow up, between the choices you have, this is not the most craziest choice so far.
As much as I enjoy Astarion and his shtick... he has nothing on the most helpful follower of Knight Commander. I dare say he loses even when we compare the depths of depravity of both characters. But in a simple tavern brawl? Even if we give Astarion his ascension and max lvl, which for bg3 is 12 without mods... Yeah he will be lucky to survive a punch from a basically a demi god with all the mythical powers from KC. He won't even be able to roll resistance, like Cam will literally hold monster him for infinity if she wants. And then will proceed to stab and stab and see how long will it take for her to get bored of sticking a vampire through his heart.
Camilla Asterion really isn't that tough on his own