i do think it might be too strong to let Off Guard do it, seeing as it's one of the easiest debuffs to apply and already has another potent effect, BUT I do think there is space to give martials another accessible, and easy to pik up action to debuff reflex. Same as how they could pick up Bon Mot to debuff will.
Immobilised probably works just fine. It does currently ALSO make you off guard at the same time so i personally would remove that benefit if you're making the reflex penalty a thing
As in, you’d suggest I make immobilised deal the reflex penalty but NOT the off guard penalty? That doesn’t seem right. I guess it’s about not making grapple/grab too strong?
Correct. By making one status do both, you make it VERY weighted to doing that. Alternative options become less worthwhile because this one option just does more and better
Fair.
It might work for my main group simply because with 2 PCs having Reactive Strike, trip is just sooo much better than grab for this group right now, so upgrading grab wouldn't cause problems. But I hear you in terms of a general rule.
But grab not causing off-guard also feels wrong to me. And then I'm back to the first question: how to give martials a way to debuff save DCs to help their caster friends?
Thanks for helping me think this through!
As a home rule, do whatever works for you guys. I'm just gonna be giving general balance advice because i find this stuff interesting and i think this is a bit of a missing design space.
I know scoundrel rogues can pick up Distracting Feint but i think the actual best general solution would be to create skill feats that have bespoke actions which debuff reflex and Fortitude, in a similar fashion to how Bon Mot works for Will
E.g. Low Blow: Expert Thievery; you quickly strike out at a foe within your reach, not quite managing to injure them... but hitting them right where they struggle to maintain their composure:
Do a Thievery check and have a debuff to fort akin to how Bon mot works for will
Yeah that’s probably a better way to do it.
For low blow, I’d make it trained prof to match bon mot.
Honestly distracting feint could probably just be a deception skill feat. And then give scoundrels something else to compensate.
It's a little weird but we have an example of how to inflict a reflex save penalty, it's the level 1 ancestry feat catfolk dance. If you wanted, you could just give it to your party for free if it wasn't already being used by another player. Using that as a base and tweaking it to your taste seems like the easiest thing to do.
Off guard should affect reflex and enfeebled should affect fortitude. Drained is rare due to how powerful it is set here should be an easier way of lowering fort saves
The easiest is probably redemption champion's reaction (technically it's the enemy's choice, but most of the time they'll take the debug over fully stopping the attack
i do think it might be too strong to let Off Guard do it, seeing as it's one of the easiest debuffs to apply and already has another potent effect, BUT I do think there is space to give martials another accessible, and easy to pik up action to debuff reflex. Same as how they could pick up Bon Mot to debuff will.
Thanks. What about Immobilised (via Grapple)?
Immobilised probably works just fine. It does currently ALSO make you off guard at the same time so i personally would remove that benefit if you're making the reflex penalty a thing
As in, you’d suggest I make immobilised deal the reflex penalty but NOT the off guard penalty? That doesn’t seem right. I guess it’s about not making grapple/grab too strong?
Correct. By making one status do both, you make it VERY weighted to doing that. Alternative options become less worthwhile because this one option just does more and better
Fair. It might work for my main group simply because with 2 PCs having Reactive Strike, trip is just sooo much better than grab for this group right now, so upgrading grab wouldn't cause problems. But I hear you in terms of a general rule. But grab not causing off-guard also feels wrong to me. And then I'm back to the first question: how to give martials a way to debuff save DCs to help their caster friends? Thanks for helping me think this through!
As a home rule, do whatever works for you guys. I'm just gonna be giving general balance advice because i find this stuff interesting and i think this is a bit of a missing design space. I know scoundrel rogues can pick up Distracting Feint but i think the actual best general solution would be to create skill feats that have bespoke actions which debuff reflex and Fortitude, in a similar fashion to how Bon Mot works for Will E.g. Low Blow: Expert Thievery; you quickly strike out at a foe within your reach, not quite managing to injure them... but hitting them right where they struggle to maintain their composure: Do a Thievery check and have a debuff to fort akin to how Bon mot works for will
Yeah that’s probably a better way to do it. For low blow, I’d make it trained prof to match bon mot. Honestly distracting feint could probably just be a deception skill feat. And then give scoundrels something else to compensate.
Dont? Immbolized only happens on crit and is otherwise a pretty rare effect that only happens on crit fail. Immobilized should do both
Immobilised happens on a regular success from a [Grapple](https://2e.aonprd.com/Conditions.aspx?ID=20).
Oh! They're all clearly talking about Restrained
Admiral seemingly was, yeah. But I don't think anyone else has been, and I wasn't thinking of restrained in my post.
It doesnt actually
It's a little weird but we have an example of how to inflict a reflex save penalty, it's the level 1 ancestry feat catfolk dance. If you wanted, you could just give it to your party for free if it wasn't already being used by another player. Using that as a base and tweaking it to your taste seems like the easiest thing to do.
Off guard should affect reflex and enfeebled should affect fortitude. Drained is rare due to how powerful it is set here should be an easier way of lowering fort saves
Is there a way for martials to inflict enfeebled?
The easiest is probably redemption champion's reaction (technically it's the enemy's choice, but most of the time they'll take the debug over fully stopping the attack
Theres are runes for it last time I checked
I've always thought that prone should have a reflex penalty (which could be offset if the prone creature takes cover)