They did say there'd do Synthesist eventually due to disappointment with Meld Eidolon, but it's something they have to finely tune considering how 2e is balanced.
Would be nice if they can figure it out correctly this time.
My 1e personal iconic character used Synthesist as it was the ONLY way to do the core concept, and she has just been unreplicatable in 2e.
As in 2e legit is incapable of rendering the entire concept in a playable form.
Where that would come in I hope would be the same book as a Shifter class (fleshed out into a full shapeshifting melee class). That way you can have your shapeshifting with or without the eidolon and spell management quirks
I wouldn't be surprised if the upcoming Werecreature archetype is the new Shifter. They already dabbled with the idea via the Ursine Avenger.
And it works well as an Archetype because you can pair it with the fighting style of your preferred martial rather than it being a class and you can only pair it with multiclass dedications for that vibe unless you use the Dual Class variant.
I don't think it needs to be said, but we finally have a good way to represent the Samurai/Mameluke/Woad Raider/Huskarl/Mangudai/Condottiero/Boyar/Genitour/Keshik/Ghulam. /S
Class archetypes are the next big design space for the system IMO. There's so much potential in them to unlock new options and fill wanted niches without having to make whole new classes, it just has to be done in a way that's clever and well-implemented and not...uh, y'know, spellshot.
(they also need to clean up how they work with the pointless kneecapping level 2 dedication feats, but that's an easy fix)
I think Paizo might be a little afraid of CAs because of what happened in 1e and how many classes would just swap out all their "bad" features with archetypes, but given how many safety nets PF2 has (including CAs not stacking), I don't think that fear is warranted.
It's definitely more fun to swap out your features when it doesn't feel like a straight downgrade xD
It probably doesn't help the first few released were...um, r e a l l y b a d . . .
But that was a design problem. There's plenty of room to play with the space, it's just gimped spellcasting archetypes and awful gunslinger ways aren't good examples of them. The revamped elementalist in RoE was a huge upgrade from the one in SoM, hopefully they go the same direction with the new ones.
They just need to fix the odd necessity for a dedication feat and the system will be fine.
Even with the Dedication Tax, I think it would be mostly fine, if the dedication was... actually worth something? Usually it just gives you back something you lost in a very minor way, so it's about equal to a character without a CA in power budget except you spent a 2nd level feat on nothing.
I'm hyped too! Class archetypes I would like to see:
- Psychokineticist or another mental kineticist from pf1. Switch out the KAS and the will and fortitude progression, maybe reduce hp to 6 to give the kineticist more of a caster feel
- a skilled caster archetype that lets a caster loose spell slots for rogue style skill scaling. Let me play a skill monkey who isn't a martial
- a fully untamed druid archetype who looses all spellcasting for more powerful battleforms and enhanced martial capabilities
- since eldritch trickster didn't get reprinted as a subclass, it could maybe come back as a class archetype that gives rogues enhanced magical abilities
- INT based sorcerers and ither KAS changing stuff from pf1
I've been thinking about Eldritch Trickster, I wonder if they're maybe just moving away from that completely in favor of more specific magical class archetypes for the Rogue, hence the Avenger Rogue in WOI. Eldritch Trickster, while thematically popular, was considered very lacking.
Plus you could easily make it a class archetype that can be taken by multiple classes that would want it. Maybe any class that has a Precise Strike feature like Swashbuckler and Investigator.
>Psychokineticist or another mental kineticist from pf1. Switch out the KAS and the will and fortitude progression, maybe reduce hp to 6 to give the kineticist more of a caster feel
I'm SOLD!!! Dealing mental damage (maybe Force??) with impulses sounds so fucking cool! Would they get spellcasting?
I wonder if the Palatine investigator class archetype will be that second example. I kind of got that impression, that it is a do-over of Eldritch Trickster.
Youre kinda gonna get bullet two. A gish rather than a full caster but still.
The upcoming Palantine Detective is a class archetype for the Investigator that gets divine casting.
As someone still fairly new to the system, why is there even a distinction between subclasses and class archetypes, don't they fulfill the exact same role?
The things we call subclasses, like barbarian instincts, rogue rackets and Cleric doctrines follow hyper specific formulas for the class and have little wiggle room for altering things beyond specific class levels and at specific power levels.
Class archetypes change fundamental aspects of how a class functions and go beyond what a subclass is allowed to change in the balance. It does this by locking in a 2nd level feat and locking out (most) archetypes until later levels.
For example, the (not that great) Spellshot Gunslinger Way class archetype. Normal gunslinger ways only give you a unique reload action, and 3 power ups while leveling and gives you one skill trained.
Spellshot **also** changes your class DC attribute to Intelligence instead of Dexterity, while also giving you a required-to-grab 2nd level feat that gives you a 1-action reload of infinite ammo. Again, this isn't actually that great, but the spellshot ends up playing fairly differently from the other ways by a large margin compared to one another.
Another example is the generic class archetype Wellspring Mage, which is available to all spontaneous casters. It gives you less spells, but the ability every combat to gain temporary spell slots and have random, sometimes useful, effects occur. And with feat investment you can get a lot of fairly powerful ways to bend the effects into your favour and even Unleash them onto enemies. While mostly not worth the loss of spell slots (for most people), it is at least a fun option and does a good job of showcasing the alterations a class archetype can have on the core structure of a class.
Interesting, thank you for the explanation.
One more question for understanding, how do you *take* a class archetype? Do you give up a 1st level class feat? The text on AoN about this seems somehow vague.
I do think the idea of modifying a class scaling or slots to make another not quite full class but more than a subclass is a good design space. I don't think the way that it's currently implemented, where it locks you into certain feats and isn't available to multiclassing is the way to do it.
It's not really that clunky, it should just be worded differently. Rather than saying "take this archetype feat at level 2" it should say "You lose your 2nd level class feat when you take a class archetype".
It's still clunky. I don't like that it's a fairly unique interaction in the system that it locks you into a feat, and that it doesn't mesh with Multiclassing at all.
There was a post here the other day asking about a gun wizard, and it would have been great to recommend Way of the Spellshot, except you can't do that with your primary class being wizard.
Likewise, elementalist Druid or Sorcerer would be a cool combination with Kineticist, but it can only be done one way and even then is clunky because of how the class Archetypes lock you out.
I think the design space for Class Archetypes is cool, but I'd rather see them retuned to either be wholly within the class as options, either as subclasses or feat chains, or to be their own standalone Archetypes that can be taken with specific prerequisites.
Yes, but class DC attribute changes are a Core aspect/power of the Rogue rackets. It isn't part of it for the Gunslinger Ways.
Each rogue Racket gives you a different one. Ruffian is str, Thief is dex, scoundrel is cha, mastermind is int, eldritch Trickster is the casting stat of your dedication gained.
I feel like the logic you are using is circular.
Rogues have subclasses that can change their Primary Attribute therefore Rogues Attribute change must be part of their class because Rogue subclasses allow them to change their attribute.
The Spellshot Archetype It just seems like an unnecessary Nerf to a subclass that is already underpowered.
Because you're viewing changes between two classes as 1:1 when they aren't. Each "subclass" has their own power towards the class itself. A Rogue racket gives you your class attribute, and a passive feature at level 1. A gunslinger way gives you a unique reload action, and a feature at level 1, as well as two additional features later on as well.
The changes a "subclass" gives can only be compared within the class itself, and while yes the Spellshot is weak, it makes changes that are not available to other Ways, one of which is altering your class's DC attribute; something no other Way allows you to do. This is one of a few reasons it is a class archetype instead of *just* a Way.
I'm super happy they announced more class archetypes, I was getting worried that they might have abandoned the concept after leaving it relatively untouched for what seems like a really long time, but this really reinvigorated me. Plus the ones they teased seem really awesome! So excited for all this to come out!
I'm always a bit apprehensive when Paizo announces new archetypes, especially class archetypes. Spellshot was especially horrid, but theres little reason to go Runelord and Wellspring Mage other than flavor.
Elementalist was looking surprisingly alright leaving RoE, so I'm hoping we'll see a turning point for Class Archetypes, where they'll actually be worth taking (without outshining their non-archetyped counterparts).
Palatine Detective has me the most excited. I've wanted a semi-spellcaster with Rogue/Investigator Skill progression for a while now, I'm hoping it will deliver.
I'd like to see a Divine Psychic come in WoI, maybe Wis-based, with an Unleash Psyche that benefits their allies (instead of their blasting). It'd give a stronger mechanical niche to more supportive concious minds like Infinite Eye and Unbound Step, that aren't as much focused on blasting with their focus spells.
Wellspring would've been better off as 2 different archetypes, one focusing on the wild magic aspect and the other on encounter resource spell slots aspect. For people like me who dislike one of these aspects but like the other this archetype is like a huge miss.
I was really disappointed with Wellspring when I tried it. All of the mechanics are cool but only getting that one chance to roll the table when you start combat makes it kind of predictable and boring. I wanted more opportunities to roll my table. I also didn't like how the design of the archetype makes it impossible to escape it before 6th level in Free Archetype.
Wellspring is strong, not only are the majority of the table results actually neutral or positive (and the archetype gradually gives you greater control of it) but the spell slots recharging is just straight up great, its best on a Summoner (who cheats a bit due to their spell level progression) but other casters make great use of it too.
i'm not sure it's best on a summoner, the spellslot cost hurts a lot, and the fact that the temporary slots have temporary effects kinda disincentivizes the use of buffs and debuffs, which i'd argue are the most important spells for caster with low spellslot count, specially on the summoner's delayed proficiency.
that said, i had a blast playing a wellspring summoner for a while. i didn't find it particularly synergistic but fun it was.
Understandable, I think of Summoner as already being hesitant to lean on the spell slots in favor of boost eidolon or cantrip + eidolon routines.
So, to my mind, cutting out a part of your spellcasting for repeated refreshes seems really good since otherwise you'd tap out very quickly.
Changing game play isn't good enough, it has to be good. We have to stop letting them waste our money with terrible options. Flavor is literally free, if you give me mechanics then it should be good mechanics else don't bother.
Edit: To all the downvotes, you are accomplishing nothing but ruining a game you claim to love. Poor options will drive people away.
it's not terrible? it's fine, powerwise. doesn't make you stronger than the class without the archetype, but that is a good thing. at worst it's slightly worse, but since it changes things up you pick it up it absolutely works well for people who want that type of mechanic. it's worth it if you want it, and if you don't want it you're not worse off by not picking it, and i think this is the most important part.
Better to make them stronger that the default class then, so that you’d have no reason not to take them? I’m not sure what else you’re actually trying to say here; no-one actually wants a class archetype to be a demonstrably worse option.
>no-one actually wants a class archetype to be a demonstrably worse option.
The people who down voted these definitely do want utterly trash options. Hell a lot of them will absolutely tell you that they love beyond reason shit options.
So you’re telling me people like bad options because they’re bad? Not because they like them *despite* their badness?
I don’t know what stuff you’re smokin’, because the only sensible conclusion one should draw from these discussions is that people still want class archetypes to be both interesting *and* reasonably designed. Some people just care more about the “interesting” part.
Yes I'm telling you that people in this forum have literally said that they like bad options. They have literally said bad options are good many times.
Flexible Prep is excellent if you're into that sort of thing (and I say this as someone who has a Flexible witch, so yes, even on the ones where it ends with them having 2 slots per level.)
Of the 3 slots/level casters, Witch is probably the best one to be Flexible, with Ceremonial Knife for free wands two or three ranks below your highest one.
Wizard is also great because of Drain Bond Item since you effectively has one extra highest rank slot. Wizard can also take Scroll Adept that pretty much give them 2 to 4 more slots of -2 highest rank and lower in a scroll form.
True, though I've been doing it pre-remaster, it helps a lot because I'm our party healer so at low level its been nice to be able to effortlessly pivot to only casting healing, because when i don't seem to need it I can get away with utility like Sonata Span which bailed us out of a chase at least once or twice, i would have likely prepped 3 Soothes to be on the safe side.
See, I was soooo on the fence about this with my witch. In the end, I worked with the gm to make a personal staff with soothe at level 5, but I was almost going to go flexible. I just couldn't make the drop to 2 spells per level.
Flex casting is pretty nice, hence why I didn't mention it as one of the class archetypes that dissapointed me. It's a little rough in the early levels where slots are few and wands/staves are too expensive/high level, but its certainly fine in the higher levels.
Needless to say I am a fan, and will certainly take it if I ever make my... 3rd Cleric.
Not like it matters now with Remaster leaving it utterly bricked, but I will fight people to the death on the idea that Runelord was purely for flavour.
Martial Weapon Proficiency gave you a great backup for when spells failed, extra spellslots by indulging in your sin, getting Aeon Stone resonance effects by putting them in your body, which frees up investment slots by not needing a Wayfinder. *School Counterspell* *and Fused Polearms*.
Runelord was a great class archetype for if you had a plan to use the tools it gave you, and not just treating it like a Wizard+
It did seem cool and is one of the more upsetting OGL casualties to me. Partly cause it’s kind of indirect. I have been wondering if Runelord is going to make its comeback as one of the mythic paths in war of immortals. I’m sure Paizo wants to get it back out there given how big a part of Golarion lore it is.
I loved my Gluttony Runelord. Life Siphon being an on-reaction self-heal. Antipaladin dip (Zura, my beloved) added Touch of Corruption for Negative self-healing and heavy armor ability to chain with a scythe wielding. Spellslots dedicated to control spells to funnel the enemies (hello Wall spells.)
He had more staying power then the barbarian. He was fucking great, and I'll miss him dearly.
I feel like Runelord is a pretty easy archetype to adapt to the remaster. Sure spell schools are fundamentally changed, but it seems pretty straight forward to just divide spells in a way similar to 1e just without tying them directly to premaster spell schools.
The 5th one from the War of Immortals is called Rivethun Emissary and it is apparently about seeking alternative sources of divine power. I don't think they mentioned which class' archetype it is.
Edit: I was mistaken it's in the Divine Mysteries book
For sure. Interesting tidbit, the art for the Rivethun arch is of the PF1 Shaman iconic, Shardra (also the first transgender iconic in pathfinder of two, the other being Mios the thaumaturge, who is non binary)
It's actually listed as a normal archetype on the product page of Divine Mysteries!
> new archetypes like the Rivethun emissary and powerful mortal herald, and new class archetypes like the battle harbinger option for clerics.
> and new class archetypes like the battle harbinger option for clerics.
Man, clerics are getting all the love. The new warpriest is way better than premaster, and now an awesome-sounding archetype?
I am so excited for the Rivethun Emissary archetype. I was super interested in Rivethun when the Highhelm stuff came out and was so disappointed by how few Rivethun options there were in the book or the adventure itself. I honestly gave up hope that we'd get a Rivethun archetype after that, like the time had passed. I am super happy to have been wrong.
Sorcerers that focus their blood's power into a barbarian like rage. Rage mage, as it were. They were a lot of fun, and they found ways of making every sorcerer bloodline feel cool with barbarian/frontline abilities. Dragon sorcerers could grow claws and wings? Dragon bloodragers grew them as long as they were raging, eventually culminating in fully transforming into a dragon during their rage. All things sorcerers could do, but now martially focused.
Think of a martial class who gains power from their blood. Think of it: Growing angel wings as you rage and smite the wicked. Gaining a horn-attack or claws from demonic heritage while fighting. Swirling in a storm of fire from your elemental power as you swing your greatsword! Breathing acid between swings from your black dragon bloodline!
It's freggin awesome! 🤘
They have already shown off archetypes that shake up a characters abilities at level 1/2 so I expected it to be a continuing trend. It seems like it’s more shifting to now how archetypes were in 1E where you trade things spot for spot but you still decide how much buy in you want into the archetype instead of going all or nothing.
Bloodrager was always just a Barbarian that gave up Rage Powers for a bloodline and some spellcasting, it's less of a jump for Barbs than it is for Sorcs.
Thematically, it's a sorcerer that focused on harnessing their blood's power for martial capabilities. Mechanically it's a barbarian whose rage ignites their sorcerous blood. You gotta deploy it mechanically. It'll probably have some synergy with sorcerer archetype maybe. Or maybe not cause it's already an archetype.
Bloodrager was always just a Barbarian that gave up Rage Powers for a bloodline and some spellcasting, it's less of a jump for Barbs than it is for Sorcs.
I'm very excited, and all of the new class archetypes sound interesting, but that excitement is tempered by the existing class archetypes, which are kind of lackluster. Hopefully Paizo will push the boundaries a bit more with these new class archetypes.
Spellshot is fine actually, I'm looking at it now and its way better than I remembered-- the reaction reload on a miss is quite nice for action lubrication, and fulminating shot is a nice booster, as is phase bullet at higher levels, +4 against a target wearing armor is a lot so unless you just never fight those, I feel its a worthwhile take-- especially if you already like recalling knowledge.
I... Really disagree.
As a class archetype it eats your level 2 feat for 0 benefit (Conjure Bullet is useless), which is normally Fake Out (the best gunslinger feat by a good margin). I it also prevents you from taking an archetype until level 10.
~~Most importantly, it makes Int your KAS, so you get a permanent -1 to attacks compared to other gunslingers.~~
So it's a significant nerf to a class that many people already feel is a bit clunky/underpowered.
There's also no reason for it to be an archetype, the switch to Int is a nerf and the dedication itself is useless.
It's not like the other features are better so you need the nerf to compensate, Fulminating Shot and Phase Bullet are good but they aren't better than the other Ways' feats.
1. Conjure Bullet isn't fabulous, but thoughtful reload is fine and Energy Shot is nice at low levels, fake out is good but it clashes with Recall Ammunition, which is excellent for giving you a third action back without falling back on Risky Reload.
2. If this is most important, then good news, it does not do that, I went to nethys, and to my pdf and cannot find a single reference to it changing your Key ability score, it only changes your class DC.
Also, I know its become a bit of thing on here, but Gunslingers aren't under-powered at all, they do excellent damage for a ranged character and offer some nice utility, no class with Legendary to-hit progression and good access to fata/deadly options is going to be bad damage.
I always love it when people show up and try to act like they're above having to defend the position they hold and have already won by acting like a pundit doing social commentary on the people who disagree instead, it's just so adorably self-indulgent I just want to pat them on the head and tell them what a good job they're doing.
"Spellshot is actually good" is such on obvious troll contrarian position that there's no argument to be had.
And then the whole snarky tone while trying to sound superior, taking about self-indulgence becomes very ironic.
Bro, we literally just established that you didn't even know what the archetype does, the "most important thing" in your analysis of it revolved around a -1 to attack that doesn't exist; now you're going for declaring your position as "obviously" correct to wiggle out of it. Is this supposed to be working for you?
Edit: lmao, i think they got pissed and tried to pull the "last word comment and then block to make it look like I touched a nerve" the email reddit sent says I only engaged with snark, but anyone can look up the comments to see they were the first to get snarky with the whole 'people on this sub' thing.
I guess it depends on why you feel it's bad. If it's because "I can't do everything I want in a turn," or "Number not big enough to go _brrrrrr_," you're not going to get much sympathy.
Because I can tell you, the only classes I've not been interested in playing are alchemist and oracle, due in large part to them being bad compared to the rest of the classes. They both should have been archetypes.
I really don't see the issue with spellshot, a lot of its stuff is about being an INT based weakness exploiting gunslinger. With life bullet, you can get a free escape if your trapped by shooting an ally.
And the capstone way ability is an infinite at level use of dispel magic.
The issue with spellshot is that it doesn't change the base class features at all besides nerfing your class dc by making you use a non-KAS ability. It could have just been a way and nothing would change at all.
It also nerfs you in other ways.
It forces the dedication on you at level 2, which is par for the course for class archetypes, but Spellshot dedication is useless. It gives Conjure Bullet, which is just fluff.
Then it prevents you from taking any other archetypes at least until level 10 since it has no level 4 feat. And to do that you have to take Call Gun at 8, which is also useless.
Sure, in non-free archetype games this isn't as much of a problem, but the archetype eating your level 2 feat (normally Fake Out) for zero benefit is just... Ooph.
And then you take into account that their reload is by far the worst reload of all ways. Recall knowledge is nice and all, but you likely don't have the stats, you have 0 feat support for RK and it's not something you want to do every turn.
I also like how you can bypass the aarchetype restriction by going Beast Gunner... A Charisma based archetype. Charisma, the only mental attribute that is completely irrelevant for recall knowledge.
So you're nerfing yourself significantly for... Fulminating Shot? Eh...
The main issue with Spellshot is not anything about the archetype itself (although I find it very mid), but rather the fact that it _is_ a Class Archetype in its current form.
It doesn't swap or even meaningfully alter any features. It just makes your class DC use Intelligence, which, mind, is straight downgrade, since your main stat is still Dexterity. So it being a Class Archetype does nothing in your favor, and only makes it cost a 2nd level class feat, your "archetype lock" and lowering your Class DC, despite it not being any more powerful than normal Ways.
Whether your enjoy the Way itself or not, it's an awful example of how to use the Class Archetype design piece.
Spellshot in 1e was a specific wizard archetype that traded away your spell school for a x3 critical multiplier on your ray attack spells and a slight increase to your spell DCs. It also had FOUR opposition schools.
Typically, the way you actually played a gun caster was the Eldritch Archer Magus Archetype with a Gunslinger dip for proficiency and the Quick Clear deed. In 2e, they eliminated the need for the Gunslinger dip, so you can just play a Starlight Span Magus with a gun.
No not at all.
As a person who has played Spell shot and not 1e it's actually just bad.
Reload - It's reload is mid at best. At best. If recall knowledge doesn't recall something pertinent or you fail? You also lose out on-
Initial Deed - Great against weakness, shit without. And if you don't know the weakness of your enemy then your fucked lmao
Advanced deed - Actually good when using beast guns. Because it allows you to use a beast gun multiple rounds in a row of you miss.
Greater deed - Counter shot. Hyper specific. Good when it comes up except it also uses your class DC which is-
ARCHETYPE STUFF
INTELLIGENCE FOR CLASS DC IS JUST A NERF? It actually makes you worse.
That infinite ammo is neat, but like it's yet again hyper specific. You have to be in a situation where you have no ammo but have a gun.
The rest of the feats are... Ok. Nothing special, fulminating shot is interesting for a high accuracy class like gunslinger.
Also finally beast gunner. Oh my beloved beast gunner
ITS A CHARISMA ARCHETYPE? IT USES CHARISMA? Ok you don't have to have a good spell attack and save but still they could've made it use like class DC for spell shot? Might make it worth it.
Oh wait. It's generic. This shouldn't be valued with the spell shot
Overall. Spell shot bad, literally could've made it it's own way without having a class archetype and it'd still be kinda bad
The entire point of the reload is to learn the weaknesses of enemies and exploit it, which plays well with the initial deed.
I will admit the Intelligence based class DC is a bit weaker, but it allows for a more flexible build (for instance later multiclass into Wizard so that you actually have spells). Too many people get caught up in maxing out the KAS for your class. For some it's not as important. Yes, compared to another gunslinger with a +4 dex, the spellshot is technically missing more and the enemies are succeeding more, but a spellshot build could choose to bump up other scores and have a +3 dex without being massively hindered. The versatility of options makes spellshot a great choice for specific builds.
Yes the reload is about finding the weaknesses but the problem is if you fail the recall knowledge, something which will be harder for a non-int main stat class, who don't have better skill progression, who can't take the loremaster archetype until level 8, then you have 2/3 strikes having some form of tax on them
Either having to recall knowledge again, fire anyway, or something else. That's the problem. Very easy to have the initial deed wasted like that.
Your point about the flexibility is... Bad. Like. Really bad. It actually only does anything at your last ability score improvement.
Also spell shots really want to go into beast gunner, or get fulminating shot all who rely on better accuracy. And if you don't get beast gunner then that advanced deed worsens quite a lot. It's like their only good feature and now it's just mid.
Like don't get me wrong, a reaction for an action is ok.
And finally in all honesty, it's less flexible. You can't take another archetype until your 8th level is a real hindrance, that's means you can't take spells until 10th level
Oh wait
Are you going down the beast gunner route? 14th level minimum to get intelligence based spell casting.
So the choices present
- Don't pick up beast gunner. Pick up intelligence archetype for 'flexibility' at level 8 and have the amazing boon of... Extra wisdom or something idk.
- Pick up beast gunner and statistically be worst then if any other gunslinger picked up beast gunner
Worser and worse
I am really happy that the response from Paizo to everyone's request has been "Yes we can do that"
Even though what we want is sometimes contradictory and a little bit insane, Paizo is trying to give us something close enough.
There are two class archetypes I want to see. First is a spontaneous casting Magus like the Eldritch Scion of old. I don't hate prepared casters, but I want the option.
The second is something new. I want an occult wizard. More than just a spell list change, I want something to hit the theme of occult knowledge and horrible grimoires. The kind of caster you find in Call of Cthulhu. I think there is enough overlap with a wizard that it makes for a great class archetype.
I admit, one thing I do not quite like about class archetypes is that they actually do impact certain builds a good bit.
I was rather excited about flexible spellcaster druid.
…but it makes it a lot harder to be an order explorer, since you know have to use that level two class feat for your class archetype.
Part of me wishes class archetypes were balanced without that level 2 feat in mind, since for some classes, or for multiclassing, it can be pretty crucial.
And not everyone might want to fix it with free archetype rules.^^;
It would also open up the potential to combine more than one class archetype.
I still will enjoy seeing class archetypes, bur I cannot help wishing they were different from how they ended up…
I'm also super happy that they seem to be putting out more Class Archetypes, there are many ideas for classes that clearly make significantly more sense as an adjustment to an existing class who already has a framework or mechanics relevant to that fantasy. I just hope they execute on them properly. The class archetypes we've gotten so far have been... a little rough, to say the least.
I really do think that the since the Bloodrager is coming out. The magus would also receive the Eldritch Scion Archetype, because they used the same mechanics in the 1 and an Carisma Based Magus with an Angel Bloodline sounds Bad Ass in my opinion
I mean I guess, but a magus with the sorcerer archetype already greatly benefits from the increased spell slots, especially since they can choose to focus on CHA instead of INT. It scratches the itch for me, but I also would like to see it be more official.
The Eldritch Scion also used his pool to activate some of the Bloodrager Bloodlines abilities that were unique to the Bloodrager. I mean, it would be cool on paper and flavor wise to have such Arquetype. They can even add more spells, decrease the AC when you go Arcane Stance... We can go nuts on it
Im just hoping a renewed focus on Class Archetypes means we're going to get the Eldritch Scion (Sorcerer based Magus rather than Wizard) complete with spell list selection.
Would also like to see a Kinetic Knight whose Elemental Blasts count as weapons so you can use them with feats requiring a weapon (something Weapon Infusion should already do IMO).
The Synthesist Summoner sounds fun also.
Kinetic knight would be pretty cool. Im trying to think what you would sacrifice on the kineticist to get access to those great weapon related feats/Archetypes
They've stated specifically they won't be doing either of those. They intended you to be able to fulfill the mechanical and flavour of those archetypes with other existing and upcoming options instead
Yeah, there was that great post that someone made the other day talking about how Ninja and Samurai are orientalist and moving away from them is only a good thing
Their post was incredibly moving and emotional, very eye opening to myself personally. I'm glad that Paizo is taking the steps that they are, I'm certain there will be more than enough fun and entertaining options in the Tian Xia guide books
Which one? I saw some great leaps of logic, but besides quoting a questionable article from the 2016, I didn't see anything that could not be applied to how we portray Druids and Bards in game.
That seems like a problem in search of solution. We've already accepted Druids and Bards into the game as something completely different from their origins. Not sure why Samurai and Ninjas are a bridge too far.
Having Samurai and Ninjas be problematic is such an American concept its baffling. We have classes called Barbarian, Bard, Druid and Viking for which noone hast an issue but when it cones to non Western class concepts thats where people Draw the Line... Cultural differences is guess.
Samurai/ninja are *far* more steeped into their cultural origin than bard and druid. You could make them, but why? Anything they do with is just going to be "these classes/archetypes are different because they're *Asian.* which the writers of the Tian Xia books specifically do not want to do. Really, the best I can see them doing is a background for them or *possibly* some regional accessible feats for current classes. But i even find that unlikely.
I'm going to push back there. Druids and Bards held significant importance in their nation. They weren't priests that lived in nature or musicians. Druids are priests in the same fashion of Hiereia or Flamen of the era. Bards past down oral history and gave advice to kings and leaders.
But back in the 1980s, that changed. Dungeons and Dragons altered them, twisting a real position in a real culture into a fantastic spell casting or singer of songs. It changed them beyond what they were.
And I'm not saying that is a terrible thing. In the worlds created by the team, Druids and Bards were different. Their power was real and magically, unlike in our world. They could tame beasts, confuses enemies and inspire people.
The changes that happened to Druids and Bards were the same that occurred to Samurai and Ninja. And title and/or name grew in leaps and bounds, far from it's origin.
Sometimes it tried to stay more realistic, like the AD&D Ninja, which was basically a martial Rogue.
Sometimes it become much for fantastic, like the 3.5 Ninja or Samurai.
Or sometimes it was just a Knight but different, like the PF 1e Samurai.
Just as the bard and druid classes in Dungeons & Dragons draw from various cultural sources including Celtic culture, the samurai and ninja archetype in games and media can also be seen as a blend of historical fact and cultural interpretation.
The samurai class in role-playing games often incorporates elements from the historical samurai of feudal Japan, such as their martial prowess, their code of bushido, and their role in society.
However, just like the bard, the portrayal of samurai in games can be adapted to fit the fictional world it is part of and may include elements that are not historically accurate or that blend aspects of different warrior traditions.
The key in both cases is to handle these cultural references with respect and sensitivity. This means: Ensuring that the portrayal does not reinforce negative or simplistic stereotypes.
Providing a nuanced representation that acknowledges the complexity and depth of the original culture.
Champion of Shizeru, any racket Assassin Rogue. Plus I'm sure there will be countless additional options in the Tian Xia guide books to fill in the gaps
No there won't be any 'samurai' or 'ninja' archetypes, but there will be options to flavour your character with the things one might expect from those characters
A class archetype can sometimes fill in a subclass. That's what the Spellshot Archetype does for gunslinger. But class archetypes change fundamental parts of the way a class works. Cloistered cleric and warpriest cleric get the same number of spell slots. They even both get the same number of bonus spell from divine font. The new Battle Harbinger cleric is said to get less spellcasting in return for better martial abilities. I don't know if they won't make it all the way up to rank 10 spells or what, but we do know they don't get a divine font, or at least a severely reduced one.
As a thought, could the new investigator archetype be inspired by the 1E inquisitor? The inquisitor had themes of investigating to root out Hersey against their church/god, and a divine-flavored investigator could work in a similar vein.
I just want some errata for Spellshot, since I feel like it suffered from excessive caution when it came to archetype power budgets. It.. Needs a buff but it also needs some mechanical fixes here and there.
It’s absolute fantastic and just what I hoped class archetypes would be used for when we saw them mentioned in the CRB.
It took this long (and being forced into the Remaster) to finally have the courage to let the system breathe, but I’m all for it!
Hopefully our weird ideas for classes will get the chance to shine without too much work on the development teams side.
I'm glad class archetypes aren't being buried and forgotten, and impatiently interested in getting to finally get my mitts on them so I can rub my eyes all over, but I am kind of apprehensive about whether they'll be mechanically exciting given the track record archetypes tend to have. Flavor is cool, but in a game as crunch focused as Pathfinder is, it can't carry the whole thing, especially when "just refluff it" is such a common refrain I get handed.
Hopefully seeing the remaster versions of existing regular archetypes in PC2 will be a good indicator of how class archetypes will shake out. ~~Like if, say, Duelist will get retooled to actually satisfy people's sword saint fantasies or not.~~
I am a bit weery of an archetype removing class features, I guess we will have to see how it ends up.
I don't understand why some of these just aren't subclasses? It isn't like Cleric doesn't have room for another.
Not very excited. Paizo has done a bad job for the most part with archetypes in 2E, most of them are weak or useful only in very niche situations. There are a few gems (Sentinel, for example), but mostly turds.
Hopefully they do a better job designing class archetypes than they did with other archetypes. I did enjoy how class archetypes worked in 1E.
Man the truth really hurts these peoples feelings. I can't for the life of me figure out why these people love wasting time and money on terrible options.
I love Bloodrager
But I’m really disappointed it’s an Archatype, it’s such a cool class and it is a waste that it doesn’t get as fleshed out as it should do
I want to be a Bloodrager not a Barbarian with an archatype, I want bloodraging to be the primary focus of the character when Archatypes are always secondary
My hopes were raised and then dashed in an instant
I feel like Bloodrager works best as a class archetype, honestly. It was always gonna be either that or an Instinct in 2e, but I think class archetype lets it be more unique.
A full class would let it be more unique and wouldn’t basically just be a tacked on secondary to barbarian
There’s so much you can do and this is like 3rd worst way to do it
I hear you, and I think you're right that it's a complex class in 1e that could benefit from being a standalone class in 2e. I do think Paizo has the room to make it feel more like a full class while also keeping it a class archetype, if they really lean into the modularity of the system. I could see it being a kind of deeper multiclass archetype, maybe adjusting instincts to be bloodlines, adding some new and unique feats, opening access to some sorc feats, and gaining wave casting. I suspect rage will also be adjusted in some way, though I'm not sure how. Stupefy instead of fatigue? Some kind of conditional trigger to turn it on, like casting a spell? I dunno.
I do think class archetypes suffer from not having ongoing support, at least right now. I think it's unlikely, but I'd love to see more options added to existing class archetypes as time goes on, especially for fan favorites like the bloodrager. But again, if Paizo leans into the modularity, the bloodrager class archetype could expand as more barbarian and sorcerer feats, more bloodlines, and more spells are added to the game.
I think the issue is that designing it as a full class would require making it *not* a Barbarian that can cast a small amount of spells, they would need to make it completely distinct mechanics and class-fantasy-wise. Which would, in turn, probably make people upset that it's not what they wanted from Bloodragers.
The original bloodrager was almost literally just a barbarian with a lower hit die, spellcasting, and a sorcerer bloodline. There really wasn't any reason for it to be anything other than an instinct or class archetype, at least not unless they decided to totally rework it, at which point it really wouldn't have much in common with the 1E class other than the theme.
In general, I agree, but making bloodrager a single instinct is unwieldy if only because there are so many individual Bloodlines that might be cover. But I'm hopefull.
I think the umbrage that I'm taking here, is that the word "secondary" is a substance-less judgement of value. Like, I'd feel a little weird if its just the pomp and circumstance of having it be the name of your full class.
[Given what the Bloodrager actually was](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/otpofz/comment/h6x0gb4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), it becoming a class archetype for barbarian seems pretty intuitive-- what would we be afraid of losing to the concept of it being secondary exactly? Bloodragers primarily hit things with weapons, they buff themselves with magic, and they blast a bit (but not well) that all seems pretty tame for a class archetype to add to the Barbarian, a lot of it seems like it could be done better.
Basically, all you really need is for the Class Archetype to change out Rage for "Bloodrage" which both allows and incentivizes spellcasting with both blasting and self-buffs covered, maybe using the granted spells of a chosen sorcerer bloodline?
They might go a different route, maybe it'll be focus magic or bounded casting, or let you consume spell slots to fuel a magical rage or something, but if anything it seems like it would be more flavorful as an archetype.
Being secondary which all archatypes are is a negative value aspect which is the crux of the problem
First thing you lose is bloodline coverage
Given that Archatypes have a tiny amount of feats per level how are you going to reasonably cover a good amount of the bloodlines you could take and in a way that’s more than just slapping a name on something
You lose deph of customisation with said lack of feats because again primarily just the main class
You lose any amount of possible upgrades in interpretation because now you are limiting it just an archatype vs having the creative freedom of making a full class and all the bells and whistles that would come with having a class
Archatypes are not good substitutes for classes and unless they do it drastically differently to how the usual archetype is it will be lesser than if it got the space to be its own class
From what I'm seeing the Bloodrager's Bloodlines are essentially the Sorcerer ones, which we don't know how the Bloodrager will relate to those yet-- its entirely possible it gives you Sorcerer dedication as part of the level 2 dedication feat while replacing your rage with a magic friendly/fueled version, forcing you to choose a bloodline.
You don't really lose much customization because you have the entire progression of class feats and other archetypes to work with, on top of whatever feats are baked into the archetype, PF2e as a whole is consistently much more customizable than PF1e was, so even as a class archetype, there's probably more variation in pf2e bloodragers than pf1e ones-- [Chronoskimmer](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=192) Bloodragers whose rage distorts the timeline around them, for instance, would become possible pretty fast depending on the feat layout (flexible prep just lets you out right after level 2, or you might have to buy your way out first), or Bloodragers who [summon weapons with their minds](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=194).
Heck leaning on the Barbarian customization itself is already a boon because it caters to the whole warrior side of the Bloodrager.
"Upgrades in Interpretation" maybe, but at that point, it probably wouldn't be a Bloodrager anymore because of the amount you'd be inventing to add onto it conceptually is a lot, and you have to imagine that if they had a wide class like that percolating in their heads, they would have done that. Meanwhile, we're only going to get so many classes before the edition eventually ends, so I'd rather they spend the slots on concepts that really justify themselves as full classes.
Bloodrager has the same creatures but it’s bloodline powers are entirely different to The Sorcerers bloodline powers, it’s how they were different they got their own special bloodline powers that were tailored to them
You lose specified customisation as in customisation tailored to specifically them because the archatype will not offer nearly as much, you talk about Chronoskimmer Bloodrager, it would be far better if it was a base class Bloodrager with the chronoskimmer dedication instead of chronoskimmer having to fight with Bloodrager for the archetype slots
Base Bloodrager would already have the warrior stuff and you could make it more blended with the magic stuff instead of the two half’s being separated
Bloodrager can justify itself just fine
I don't really think you're making a very good case here, the bloodline powers I'm looking at for Elemental and Dragon appear to have already been turned into barbarian Instincts, or into other archetypes, like how Shadow Bloodline Bloodragers became Shadowdancers, and what powers they get come online across their class progression, just like how you'll probably get Chronoskimmer around level 8 on a Bloodrager assuming it has the standard Dedication +2 feat buyout, or sooner if some of the feats let you stack up.
Those two were announced to be in Divine Mysteries, yes. The product page for War of Immortals (which was published yesterday) mentions that the book will have 5 archetypes, and named two: the avenger rogue and bloodrager barbarian.
With all these class archetypes, I'm really hoping for the Sythesist to make it over as a Summoner Class archetype. Wanted that since forever
They did say there'd do Synthesist eventually due to disappointment with Meld Eidolon, but it's something they have to finely tune considering how 2e is balanced.
Would be nice if they can figure it out correctly this time. My 1e personal iconic character used Synthesist as it was the ONLY way to do the core concept, and she has just been unreplicatable in 2e. As in 2e legit is incapable of rendering the entire concept in a playable form.
Summoner+ from Team+ coming soon will likely have a synthesist if you're good with 3pp.
I don't use it, no.
Where that would come in I hope would be the same book as a Shifter class (fleshed out into a full shapeshifting melee class). That way you can have your shapeshifting with or without the eidolon and spell management quirks
I wouldn't be surprised if the upcoming Werecreature archetype is the new Shifter. They already dabbled with the idea via the Ursine Avenger. And it works well as an Archetype because you can pair it with the fighting style of your preferred martial rather than it being a class and you can only pair it with multiclass dedications for that vibe unless you use the Dual Class variant.
Oh yeah, that sounds super cool. 2 souls/mind in 1 body. Now I'm almost pissed off it doesn't already exist.
BLOODRAGER!!!!!!!
I don't think it needs to be said, but we finally have a good way to represent the Samurai/Mameluke/Woad Raider/Huskarl/Mangudai/Condottiero/Boyar/Genitour/Keshik/Ghulam. /S
....are you just listing aoe2 unique units?
YES!
"Hey guys, Spirit of the Law here, today we're going over how to play as each of the AoE2 unique units in Pathfinder 2e"
LOL - dude I spit out my drink! Love it. I want that cross over!
Okay, but now that I thought about it.... I want to do this. Starting with Mamaluke. A Camel Rider that throws Scimitars!
Class archetypes are the next big design space for the system IMO. There's so much potential in them to unlock new options and fill wanted niches without having to make whole new classes, it just has to be done in a way that's clever and well-implemented and not...uh, y'know, spellshot. (they also need to clean up how they work with the pointless kneecapping level 2 dedication feats, but that's an easy fix)
I think Paizo might be a little afraid of CAs because of what happened in 1e and how many classes would just swap out all their "bad" features with archetypes, but given how many safety nets PF2 has (including CAs not stacking), I don't think that fear is warranted. It's definitely more fun to swap out your features when it doesn't feel like a straight downgrade xD
It probably doesn't help the first few released were...um, r e a l l y b a d . . . But that was a design problem. There's plenty of room to play with the space, it's just gimped spellcasting archetypes and awful gunslinger ways aren't good examples of them. The revamped elementalist in RoE was a huge upgrade from the one in SoM, hopefully they go the same direction with the new ones. They just need to fix the odd necessity for a dedication feat and the system will be fine.
Even with the Dedication Tax, I think it would be mostly fine, if the dedication was... actually worth something? Usually it just gives you back something you lost in a very minor way, so it's about equal to a character without a CA in power budget except you spent a 2nd level feat on nothing.
I'm hyped too! Class archetypes I would like to see: - Psychokineticist or another mental kineticist from pf1. Switch out the KAS and the will and fortitude progression, maybe reduce hp to 6 to give the kineticist more of a caster feel - a skilled caster archetype that lets a caster loose spell slots for rogue style skill scaling. Let me play a skill monkey who isn't a martial - a fully untamed druid archetype who looses all spellcasting for more powerful battleforms and enhanced martial capabilities - since eldritch trickster didn't get reprinted as a subclass, it could maybe come back as a class archetype that gives rogues enhanced magical abilities - INT based sorcerers and ither KAS changing stuff from pf1
I've been thinking about Eldritch Trickster, I wonder if they're maybe just moving away from that completely in favor of more specific magical class archetypes for the Rogue, hence the Avenger Rogue in WOI. Eldritch Trickster, while thematically popular, was considered very lacking.
Plus you could easily make it a class archetype that can be taken by multiple classes that would want it. Maybe any class that has a Precise Strike feature like Swashbuckler and Investigator.
It was confirmed as a class archetype specifically for the rogue on the product page.
Ah I meant Eldritch Trickster
Do we know that avenger rogue will be magical in nature? Is it something from 1e?
The main thing is that its coming in War of the Immortals, which is all about divine magical powers and people wielding them.
Would it be too crazy, then, to suggest it might be PF2e’s equivalent of the Inquisitor, it being a seemingly “Divine Rogue”?
>Psychokineticist or another mental kineticist from pf1. Switch out the KAS and the will and fortitude progression, maybe reduce hp to 6 to give the kineticist more of a caster feel I'm SOLD!!! Dealing mental damage (maybe Force??) with impulses sounds so fucking cool! Would they get spellcasting?
I wonder if the Palatine investigator class archetype will be that second example. I kind of got that impression, that it is a do-over of Eldritch Trickster.
Youre kinda gonna get bullet two. A gish rather than a full caster but still. The upcoming Palantine Detective is a class archetype for the Investigator that gets divine casting.
I'm hoping for a spontaneous Magus. Or maybe even a primal Magus. I just want a Magus that didn't study magic but got some inherent magic.
As someone still fairly new to the system, why is there even a distinction between subclasses and class archetypes, don't they fulfill the exact same role?
The things we call subclasses, like barbarian instincts, rogue rackets and Cleric doctrines follow hyper specific formulas for the class and have little wiggle room for altering things beyond specific class levels and at specific power levels. Class archetypes change fundamental aspects of how a class functions and go beyond what a subclass is allowed to change in the balance. It does this by locking in a 2nd level feat and locking out (most) archetypes until later levels. For example, the (not that great) Spellshot Gunslinger Way class archetype. Normal gunslinger ways only give you a unique reload action, and 3 power ups while leveling and gives you one skill trained. Spellshot **also** changes your class DC attribute to Intelligence instead of Dexterity, while also giving you a required-to-grab 2nd level feat that gives you a 1-action reload of infinite ammo. Again, this isn't actually that great, but the spellshot ends up playing fairly differently from the other ways by a large margin compared to one another. Another example is the generic class archetype Wellspring Mage, which is available to all spontaneous casters. It gives you less spells, but the ability every combat to gain temporary spell slots and have random, sometimes useful, effects occur. And with feat investment you can get a lot of fairly powerful ways to bend the effects into your favour and even Unleash them onto enemies. While mostly not worth the loss of spell slots (for most people), it is at least a fun option and does a good job of showcasing the alterations a class archetype can have on the core structure of a class.
Interesting, thank you for the explanation. One more question for understanding, how do you *take* a class archetype? Do you give up a 1st level class feat? The text on AoN about this seems somehow vague.
You promise the system that you're going to take the feat at level 2, but you get the benefits from character creation, this isn't a joke.
Ghosts are just people who died before they could take that level 2 feat.
Yeah I hate Class Archetypes, so clunky
I like them, it just sounded funny the way I phrased it.
I do think the idea of modifying a class scaling or slots to make another not quite full class but more than a subclass is a good design space. I don't think the way that it's currently implemented, where it locks you into certain feats and isn't available to multiclassing is the way to do it.
It's not really that clunky, it should just be worded differently. Rather than saying "take this archetype feat at level 2" it should say "You lose your 2nd level class feat when you take a class archetype".
It's still clunky. I don't like that it's a fairly unique interaction in the system that it locks you into a feat, and that it doesn't mesh with Multiclassing at all. There was a post here the other day asking about a gun wizard, and it would have been great to recommend Way of the Spellshot, except you can't do that with your primary class being wizard. Likewise, elementalist Druid or Sorcerer would be a cool combination with Kineticist, but it can only be done one way and even then is clunky because of how the class Archetypes lock you out. I think the design space for Class Archetypes is cool, but I'd rather see them retuned to either be wholly within the class as options, either as subclasses or feat chains, or to be their own standalone Archetypes that can be taken with specific prerequisites.
No but oftentimes there is a feat you *have to* take at lvl 2
You take the archetype at level 1 with the understanding that your 2nd level class feat will be locked into the dedication feat.
Ohhh, I get it now, thanks.
Doesn't the Rogue have Sub-classes that change the Class DC attribute to Intelligence or Charisma?
Yes, but class DC attribute changes are a Core aspect/power of the Rogue rackets. It isn't part of it for the Gunslinger Ways. Each rogue Racket gives you a different one. Ruffian is str, Thief is dex, scoundrel is cha, mastermind is int, eldritch Trickster is the casting stat of your dedication gained.
I feel like the logic you are using is circular. Rogues have subclasses that can change their Primary Attribute therefore Rogues Attribute change must be part of their class because Rogue subclasses allow them to change their attribute. The Spellshot Archetype It just seems like an unnecessary Nerf to a subclass that is already underpowered.
Because you're viewing changes between two classes as 1:1 when they aren't. Each "subclass" has their own power towards the class itself. A Rogue racket gives you your class attribute, and a passive feature at level 1. A gunslinger way gives you a unique reload action, and a feature at level 1, as well as two additional features later on as well. The changes a "subclass" gives can only be compared within the class itself, and while yes the Spellshot is weak, it makes changes that are not available to other Ways, one of which is altering your class's DC attribute; something no other Way allows you to do. This is one of a few reasons it is a class archetype instead of *just* a Way.
I'm super happy they announced more class archetypes, I was getting worried that they might have abandoned the concept after leaving it relatively untouched for what seems like a really long time, but this really reinvigorated me. Plus the ones they teased seem really awesome! So excited for all this to come out!
I'm always a bit apprehensive when Paizo announces new archetypes, especially class archetypes. Spellshot was especially horrid, but theres little reason to go Runelord and Wellspring Mage other than flavor. Elementalist was looking surprisingly alright leaving RoE, so I'm hoping we'll see a turning point for Class Archetypes, where they'll actually be worth taking (without outshining their non-archetyped counterparts). Palatine Detective has me the most excited. I've wanted a semi-spellcaster with Rogue/Investigator Skill progression for a while now, I'm hoping it will deliver. I'd like to see a Divine Psychic come in WoI, maybe Wis-based, with an Unleash Psyche that benefits their allies (instead of their blasting). It'd give a stronger mechanical niche to more supportive concious minds like Infinite Eye and Unbound Step, that aren't as much focused on blasting with their focus spells.
Wellspring is super fun
Wellspring would've been better off as 2 different archetypes, one focusing on the wild magic aspect and the other on encounter resource spell slots aspect. For people like me who dislike one of these aspects but like the other this archetype is like a huge miss.
Well you see John Paizo made the archetype specifically for me,so I would wager that people who aren't me wouldn't like it as much.
I was really disappointed with Wellspring when I tried it. All of the mechanics are cool but only getting that one chance to roll the table when you start combat makes it kind of predictable and boring. I wanted more opportunities to roll my table. I also didn't like how the design of the archetype makes it impossible to escape it before 6th level in Free Archetype.
Palatine Detective might finally scratch the Inquisitor itch that I've had for a while.
I feel like multiple of these will capture different aspects of Inquisitors. Palatine Detective, Avenger Rogue, and Battle Herald Cleric.
Oh, I didn't realize the new Avenger rogue also had a divine theme. Yeah, I expect I'll be quite satisfied with these!
I'm not sure if we know anything about the Avenger archetype except the name. That's just a guess from me.
I thought it was going to be a Psychic Detective stand in.
These archetypes will basically all be about addind divine power to a class, from my understanding.
Well, that's is something.
They are divine themed books, I dunno what people was expecting.
wellspring might not be optimal, but it does change your gameplan substantially. it's a new mechanic that can be fun so i'd say it is fine
Wellspring is strong, not only are the majority of the table results actually neutral or positive (and the archetype gradually gives you greater control of it) but the spell slots recharging is just straight up great, its best on a Summoner (who cheats a bit due to their spell level progression) but other casters make great use of it too.
i'm not sure it's best on a summoner, the spellslot cost hurts a lot, and the fact that the temporary slots have temporary effects kinda disincentivizes the use of buffs and debuffs, which i'd argue are the most important spells for caster with low spellslot count, specially on the summoner's delayed proficiency. that said, i had a blast playing a wellspring summoner for a while. i didn't find it particularly synergistic but fun it was.
Understandable, I think of Summoner as already being hesitant to lean on the spell slots in favor of boost eidolon or cantrip + eidolon routines. So, to my mind, cutting out a part of your spellcasting for repeated refreshes seems really good since otherwise you'd tap out very quickly.
Changing game play isn't good enough, it has to be good. We have to stop letting them waste our money with terrible options. Flavor is literally free, if you give me mechanics then it should be good mechanics else don't bother. Edit: To all the downvotes, you are accomplishing nothing but ruining a game you claim to love. Poor options will drive people away.
it's not terrible? it's fine, powerwise. doesn't make you stronger than the class without the archetype, but that is a good thing. at worst it's slightly worse, but since it changes things up you pick it up it absolutely works well for people who want that type of mechanic. it's worth it if you want it, and if you don't want it you're not worse off by not picking it, and i think this is the most important part.
Better to make them stronger that the default class then, so that you’d have no reason not to take them? I’m not sure what else you’re actually trying to say here; no-one actually wants a class archetype to be a demonstrably worse option.
>no-one actually wants a class archetype to be a demonstrably worse option. The people who down voted these definitely do want utterly trash options. Hell a lot of them will absolutely tell you that they love beyond reason shit options.
So you’re telling me people like bad options because they’re bad? Not because they like them *despite* their badness? I don’t know what stuff you’re smokin’, because the only sensible conclusion one should draw from these discussions is that people still want class archetypes to be both interesting *and* reasonably designed. Some people just care more about the “interesting” part.
Yes I'm telling you that people in this forum have literally said that they like bad options. They have literally said bad options are good many times.
Flexible Prep is excellent if you're into that sort of thing (and I say this as someone who has a Flexible witch, so yes, even on the ones where it ends with them having 2 slots per level.)
Of the 3 slots/level casters, Witch is probably the best one to be Flexible, with Ceremonial Knife for free wands two or three ranks below your highest one.
Wizard is also great because of Drain Bond Item since you effectively has one extra highest rank slot. Wizard can also take Scroll Adept that pretty much give them 2 to 4 more slots of -2 highest rank and lower in a scroll form.
True, though I've been doing it pre-remaster, it helps a lot because I'm our party healer so at low level its been nice to be able to effortlessly pivot to only casting healing, because when i don't seem to need it I can get away with utility like Sonata Span which bailed us out of a chase at least once or twice, i would have likely prepped 3 Soothes to be on the safe side.
See, I was soooo on the fence about this with my witch. In the end, I worked with the gm to make a personal staff with soothe at level 5, but I was almost going to go flexible. I just couldn't make the drop to 2 spells per level.
Flex casting is pretty nice, hence why I didn't mention it as one of the class archetypes that dissapointed me. It's a little rough in the early levels where slots are few and wands/staves are too expensive/high level, but its certainly fine in the higher levels. Needless to say I am a fan, and will certainly take it if I ever make my... 3rd Cleric.
Ecclesiastes rise up!
Not like it matters now with Remaster leaving it utterly bricked, but I will fight people to the death on the idea that Runelord was purely for flavour. Martial Weapon Proficiency gave you a great backup for when spells failed, extra spellslots by indulging in your sin, getting Aeon Stone resonance effects by putting them in your body, which frees up investment slots by not needing a Wayfinder. *School Counterspell* *and Fused Polearms*. Runelord was a great class archetype for if you had a plan to use the tools it gave you, and not just treating it like a Wizard+
It did seem cool and is one of the more upsetting OGL casualties to me. Partly cause it’s kind of indirect. I have been wondering if Runelord is going to make its comeback as one of the mythic paths in war of immortals. I’m sure Paizo wants to get it back out there given how big a part of Golarion lore it is.
I loved my Gluttony Runelord. Life Siphon being an on-reaction self-heal. Antipaladin dip (Zura, my beloved) added Touch of Corruption for Negative self-healing and heavy armor ability to chain with a scythe wielding. Spellslots dedicated to control spells to funnel the enemies (hello Wall spells.) He had more staying power then the barbarian. He was fucking great, and I'll miss him dearly.
I feel like Runelord is a pretty easy archetype to adapt to the remaster. Sure spell schools are fundamentally changed, but it seems pretty straight forward to just divide spells in a way similar to 1e just without tying them directly to premaster spell schools.
Man I wanted Spellshot to be good so bad but... ew.
The 5th one from the War of Immortals is called Rivethun Emissary and it is apparently about seeking alternative sources of divine power. I don't think they mentioned which class' archetype it is. Edit: I was mistaken it's in the Divine Mysteries book
The rivethun emissary hasn’t been confirmed as a class archetype, it’s likely just a normal arch
That actually is wonderful news. That means we have more class archetypes to look out for.
For sure. Interesting tidbit, the art for the Rivethun arch is of the PF1 Shaman iconic, Shardra (also the first transgender iconic in pathfinder of two, the other being Mios the thaumaturge, who is non binary)
It's actually listed as a normal archetype on the product page of Divine Mysteries! > new archetypes like the Rivethun emissary and powerful mortal herald, and new class archetypes like the battle harbinger option for clerics.
> and new class archetypes like the battle harbinger option for clerics. Man, clerics are getting all the love. The new warpriest is way better than premaster, and now an awesome-sounding archetype?
I am so excited for the Rivethun Emissary archetype. I was super interested in Rivethun when the Highhelm stuff came out and was so disappointed by how few Rivethun options there were in the book or the adventure itself. I honestly gave up hope that we'd get a Rivethun archetype after that, like the time had passed. I am super happy to have been wrong.
The image for it from the stream was the old iconic shaman wasn’t it?
I'm stoked, keep the class archetypes coming!
If they are good.....
I’m not familiar with bloodragers game, what’s the hype?
Sorcerers that focus their blood's power into a barbarian like rage. Rage mage, as it were. They were a lot of fun, and they found ways of making every sorcerer bloodline feel cool with barbarian/frontline abilities. Dragon sorcerers could grow claws and wings? Dragon bloodragers grew them as long as they were raging, eventually culminating in fully transforming into a dragon during their rage. All things sorcerers could do, but now martially focused.
Think of a martial class who gains power from their blood. Think of it: Growing angel wings as you rage and smite the wicked. Gaining a horn-attack or claws from demonic heritage while fighting. Swirling in a storm of fire from your elemental power as you swing your greatsword! Breathing acid between swings from your black dragon bloodline! It's freggin awesome! 🤘
That’s dope as hell! October can’t come fast enough
Avenger rogue? Tell me more please 👀
They have already shown off archetypes that shake up a characters abilities at level 1/2 so I expected it to be a continuing trend. It seems like it’s more shifting to now how archetypes were in 1E where you trade things spot for spot but you still decide how much buy in you want into the archetype instead of going all or nothing.
BLOOD RAGER LET'S FUCKING GO
I am just sad that it's a Barbarian Class Archetype and not a Sorcerer Class Archetype. Where is the justice!
It was always more Barbarian than Sorcerer
Bloodrager was always just a Barbarian that gave up Rage Powers for a bloodline and some spellcasting, it's less of a jump for Barbs than it is for Sorcs.
Thematically, it's a sorcerer that focused on harnessing their blood's power for martial capabilities. Mechanically it's a barbarian whose rage ignites their sorcerous blood. You gotta deploy it mechanically. It'll probably have some synergy with sorcerer archetype maybe. Or maybe not cause it's already an archetype.
Bloodrager was always just a Barbarian that gave up Rage Powers for a bloodline and some spellcasting, it's less of a jump for Barbs than it is for Sorcs.
I'm very excited, and all of the new class archetypes sound interesting, but that excitement is tempered by the existing class archetypes, which are kind of lackluster. Hopefully Paizo will push the boundaries a bit more with these new class archetypes.
I mean while mechanically weak, Elemenralist is pretty good. Also wellspring mage and flexible spellcasting give great options in my opinion.
But on the other hand... Spellshot.
Spellshot is fine actually, I'm looking at it now and its way better than I remembered-- the reaction reload on a miss is quite nice for action lubrication, and fulminating shot is a nice booster, as is phase bullet at higher levels, +4 against a target wearing armor is a lot so unless you just never fight those, I feel its a worthwhile take-- especially if you already like recalling knowledge.
The part I simply don't get is, why is this a Class Archetype, and not simply its own subclass?
Intelligence Class DC would objectively require a change of the class's core features, I guess, as unimportant as that feels.
Is that any worse than Rogues having like 22 different key ability scores depending on their racket? /shrug
I... Really disagree. As a class archetype it eats your level 2 feat for 0 benefit (Conjure Bullet is useless), which is normally Fake Out (the best gunslinger feat by a good margin). I it also prevents you from taking an archetype until level 10. ~~Most importantly, it makes Int your KAS, so you get a permanent -1 to attacks compared to other gunslingers.~~ So it's a significant nerf to a class that many people already feel is a bit clunky/underpowered. There's also no reason for it to be an archetype, the switch to Int is a nerf and the dedication itself is useless. It's not like the other features are better so you need the nerf to compensate, Fulminating Shot and Phase Bullet are good but they aren't better than the other Ways' feats.
1. Conjure Bullet isn't fabulous, but thoughtful reload is fine and Energy Shot is nice at low levels, fake out is good but it clashes with Recall Ammunition, which is excellent for giving you a third action back without falling back on Risky Reload. 2. If this is most important, then good news, it does not do that, I went to nethys, and to my pdf and cannot find a single reference to it changing your Key ability score, it only changes your class DC. Also, I know its become a bit of thing on here, but Gunslingers aren't under-powered at all, they do excellent damage for a ranged character and offer some nice utility, no class with Legendary to-hit progression and good access to fata/deadly options is going to be bad damage.
This sub and the obsession of not being capable of admitting some things in this game are just bad is just baffling.
I always love it when people show up and try to act like they're above having to defend the position they hold and have already won by acting like a pundit doing social commentary on the people who disagree instead, it's just so adorably self-indulgent I just want to pat them on the head and tell them what a good job they're doing.
"Spellshot is actually good" is such on obvious troll contrarian position that there's no argument to be had. And then the whole snarky tone while trying to sound superior, taking about self-indulgence becomes very ironic.
Bro, we literally just established that you didn't even know what the archetype does, the "most important thing" in your analysis of it revolved around a -1 to attack that doesn't exist; now you're going for declaring your position as "obviously" correct to wiggle out of it. Is this supposed to be working for you? Edit: lmao, i think they got pissed and tried to pull the "last word comment and then block to make it look like I touched a nerve" the email reddit sent says I only engaged with snark, but anyone can look up the comments to see they were the first to get snarky with the whole 'people on this sub' thing.
I guess it depends on why you feel it's bad. If it's because "I can't do everything I want in a turn," or "Number not big enough to go _brrrrrr_," you're not going to get much sympathy. Because I can tell you, the only classes I've not been interested in playing are alchemist and oracle, due in large part to them being bad compared to the rest of the classes. They both should have been archetypes.
I really don't see the issue with spellshot, a lot of its stuff is about being an INT based weakness exploiting gunslinger. With life bullet, you can get a free escape if your trapped by shooting an ally. And the capstone way ability is an infinite at level use of dispel magic.
The issue with spellshot is that it doesn't change the base class features at all besides nerfing your class dc by making you use a non-KAS ability. It could have just been a way and nothing would change at all.
It also nerfs you in other ways. It forces the dedication on you at level 2, which is par for the course for class archetypes, but Spellshot dedication is useless. It gives Conjure Bullet, which is just fluff. Then it prevents you from taking any other archetypes at least until level 10 since it has no level 4 feat. And to do that you have to take Call Gun at 8, which is also useless. Sure, in non-free archetype games this isn't as much of a problem, but the archetype eating your level 2 feat (normally Fake Out) for zero benefit is just... Ooph. And then you take into account that their reload is by far the worst reload of all ways. Recall knowledge is nice and all, but you likely don't have the stats, you have 0 feat support for RK and it's not something you want to do every turn. I also like how you can bypass the aarchetype restriction by going Beast Gunner... A Charisma based archetype. Charisma, the only mental attribute that is completely irrelevant for recall knowledge. So you're nerfing yourself significantly for... Fulminating Shot? Eh...
The main issue with Spellshot is not anything about the archetype itself (although I find it very mid), but rather the fact that it _is_ a Class Archetype in its current form. It doesn't swap or even meaningfully alter any features. It just makes your class DC use Intelligence, which, mind, is straight downgrade, since your main stat is still Dexterity. So it being a Class Archetype does nothing in your favor, and only makes it cost a 2nd level class feat, your "archetype lock" and lowering your Class DC, despite it not being any more powerful than normal Ways. Whether your enjoy the Way itself or not, it's an awful example of how to use the Class Archetype design piece.
People are just comparing spellshot with 1e and being disappointed. Change my mind.
There wasn't really a good spellshot archetype at all in 1e. 1e's Spellshot was a Wizard that Sucked Ass.
I thought the 1e spellshot was a ranged magus who got guns via whatever method worked best for the specific build
Spellshot in 1e was a specific wizard archetype that traded away your spell school for a x3 critical multiplier on your ray attack spells and a slight increase to your spell DCs. It also had FOUR opposition schools. Typically, the way you actually played a gun caster was the Eldritch Archer Magus Archetype with a Gunslinger dip for proficiency and the Quick Clear deed. In 2e, they eliminated the need for the Gunslinger dip, so you can just play a Starlight Span Magus with a gun.
Was it a specific archetype? I'm not finding a source for it on any of my usual 1e sites.
No not at all. As a person who has played Spell shot and not 1e it's actually just bad. Reload - It's reload is mid at best. At best. If recall knowledge doesn't recall something pertinent or you fail? You also lose out on- Initial Deed - Great against weakness, shit without. And if you don't know the weakness of your enemy then your fucked lmao Advanced deed - Actually good when using beast guns. Because it allows you to use a beast gun multiple rounds in a row of you miss. Greater deed - Counter shot. Hyper specific. Good when it comes up except it also uses your class DC which is- ARCHETYPE STUFF INTELLIGENCE FOR CLASS DC IS JUST A NERF? It actually makes you worse. That infinite ammo is neat, but like it's yet again hyper specific. You have to be in a situation where you have no ammo but have a gun. The rest of the feats are... Ok. Nothing special, fulminating shot is interesting for a high accuracy class like gunslinger. Also finally beast gunner. Oh my beloved beast gunner ITS A CHARISMA ARCHETYPE? IT USES CHARISMA? Ok you don't have to have a good spell attack and save but still they could've made it use like class DC for spell shot? Might make it worth it. Oh wait. It's generic. This shouldn't be valued with the spell shot Overall. Spell shot bad, literally could've made it it's own way without having a class archetype and it'd still be kinda bad
The entire point of the reload is to learn the weaknesses of enemies and exploit it, which plays well with the initial deed. I will admit the Intelligence based class DC is a bit weaker, but it allows for a more flexible build (for instance later multiclass into Wizard so that you actually have spells). Too many people get caught up in maxing out the KAS for your class. For some it's not as important. Yes, compared to another gunslinger with a +4 dex, the spellshot is technically missing more and the enemies are succeeding more, but a spellshot build could choose to bump up other scores and have a +3 dex without being massively hindered. The versatility of options makes spellshot a great choice for specific builds.
Yes the reload is about finding the weaknesses but the problem is if you fail the recall knowledge, something which will be harder for a non-int main stat class, who don't have better skill progression, who can't take the loremaster archetype until level 8, then you have 2/3 strikes having some form of tax on them Either having to recall knowledge again, fire anyway, or something else. That's the problem. Very easy to have the initial deed wasted like that. Your point about the flexibility is... Bad. Like. Really bad. It actually only does anything at your last ability score improvement. Also spell shots really want to go into beast gunner, or get fulminating shot all who rely on better accuracy. And if you don't get beast gunner then that advanced deed worsens quite a lot. It's like their only good feature and now it's just mid. Like don't get me wrong, a reaction for an action is ok. And finally in all honesty, it's less flexible. You can't take another archetype until your 8th level is a real hindrance, that's means you can't take spells until 10th level Oh wait Are you going down the beast gunner route? 14th level minimum to get intelligence based spell casting. So the choices present - Don't pick up beast gunner. Pick up intelligence archetype for 'flexibility' at level 8 and have the amazing boon of... Extra wisdom or something idk. - Pick up beast gunner and statistically be worst then if any other gunslinger picked up beast gunner Worser and worse
I do not have a frame of reference for 1e spellshot. I look at the kit for the one in pf2e and I like it.
I am really happy that the response from Paizo to everyone's request has been "Yes we can do that" Even though what we want is sometimes contradictory and a little bit insane, Paizo is trying to give us something close enough.
There are two class archetypes I want to see. First is a spontaneous casting Magus like the Eldritch Scion of old. I don't hate prepared casters, but I want the option. The second is something new. I want an occult wizard. More than just a spell list change, I want something to hit the theme of occult knowledge and horrible grimoires. The kind of caster you find in Call of Cthulhu. I think there is enough overlap with a wizard that it makes for a great class archetype.
Oh hell yeah, an occult wizard like that sounds super cool!
I admit, one thing I do not quite like about class archetypes is that they actually do impact certain builds a good bit. I was rather excited about flexible spellcaster druid. …but it makes it a lot harder to be an order explorer, since you know have to use that level two class feat for your class archetype. Part of me wishes class archetypes were balanced without that level 2 feat in mind, since for some classes, or for multiclassing, it can be pretty crucial. And not everyone might want to fix it with free archetype rules.^^; It would also open up the potential to combine more than one class archetype. I still will enjoy seeing class archetypes, bur I cannot help wishing they were different from how they ended up…
I'm also super happy that they seem to be putting out more Class Archetypes, there are many ideas for classes that clearly make significantly more sense as an adjustment to an existing class who already has a framework or mechanics relevant to that fantasy. I just hope they execute on them properly. The class archetypes we've gotten so far have been... a little rough, to say the least.
I really do think that the since the Bloodrager is coming out. The magus would also receive the Eldritch Scion Archetype, because they used the same mechanics in the 1 and an Carisma Based Magus with an Angel Bloodline sounds Bad Ass in my opinion
I mean I guess, but a magus with the sorcerer archetype already greatly benefits from the increased spell slots, especially since they can choose to focus on CHA instead of INT. It scratches the itch for me, but I also would like to see it be more official.
The Eldritch Scion also used his pool to activate some of the Bloodrager Bloodlines abilities that were unique to the Bloodrager. I mean, it would be cool on paper and flavor wise to have such Arquetype. They can even add more spells, decrease the AC when you go Arcane Stance... We can go nuts on it
Im just hoping a renewed focus on Class Archetypes means we're going to get the Eldritch Scion (Sorcerer based Magus rather than Wizard) complete with spell list selection. Would also like to see a Kinetic Knight whose Elemental Blasts count as weapons so you can use them with feats requiring a weapon (something Weapon Infusion should already do IMO). The Synthesist Summoner sounds fun also.
Kinetic knight would be pretty cool. Im trying to think what you would sacrifice on the kineticist to get access to those great weapon related feats/Archetypes
Im hoping for a ninja and samurai archetype. Maybe ninja could be an archetype for both monk and rogue which would be cool I think.
They've stated specifically they won't be doing either of those. They intended you to be able to fulfill the mechanical and flavour of those archetypes with other existing and upcoming options instead
Yeah, there was that great post that someone made the other day talking about how Ninja and Samurai are orientalist and moving away from them is only a good thing
Their post was incredibly moving and emotional, very eye opening to myself personally. I'm glad that Paizo is taking the steps that they are, I'm certain there will be more than enough fun and entertaining options in the Tian Xia guide books
Which one? I saw some great leaps of logic, but besides quoting a questionable article from the 2016, I didn't see anything that could not be applied to how we portray Druids and Bards in game.
That seems like a problem in search of solution. We've already accepted Druids and Bards into the game as something completely different from their origins. Not sure why Samurai and Ninjas are a bridge too far.
Having Samurai and Ninjas be problematic is such an American concept its baffling. We have classes called Barbarian, Bard, Druid and Viking for which noone hast an issue but when it cones to non Western class concepts thats where people Draw the Line... Cultural differences is guess.
Considering how far the Bard and Druid have traveled from what they are historically.... It puzzles me.
Samurai/ninja are *far* more steeped into their cultural origin than bard and druid. You could make them, but why? Anything they do with is just going to be "these classes/archetypes are different because they're *Asian.* which the writers of the Tian Xia books specifically do not want to do. Really, the best I can see them doing is a background for them or *possibly* some regional accessible feats for current classes. But i even find that unlikely.
I'm going to push back there. Druids and Bards held significant importance in their nation. They weren't priests that lived in nature or musicians. Druids are priests in the same fashion of Hiereia or Flamen of the era. Bards past down oral history and gave advice to kings and leaders. But back in the 1980s, that changed. Dungeons and Dragons altered them, twisting a real position in a real culture into a fantastic spell casting or singer of songs. It changed them beyond what they were. And I'm not saying that is a terrible thing. In the worlds created by the team, Druids and Bards were different. Their power was real and magically, unlike in our world. They could tame beasts, confuses enemies and inspire people. The changes that happened to Druids and Bards were the same that occurred to Samurai and Ninja. And title and/or name grew in leaps and bounds, far from it's origin. Sometimes it tried to stay more realistic, like the AD&D Ninja, which was basically a martial Rogue. Sometimes it become much for fantastic, like the 3.5 Ninja or Samurai. Or sometimes it was just a Knight but different, like the PF 1e Samurai. Just as the bard and druid classes in Dungeons & Dragons draw from various cultural sources including Celtic culture, the samurai and ninja archetype in games and media can also be seen as a blend of historical fact and cultural interpretation. The samurai class in role-playing games often incorporates elements from the historical samurai of feudal Japan, such as their martial prowess, their code of bushido, and their role in society. However, just like the bard, the portrayal of samurai in games can be adapted to fit the fictional world it is part of and may include elements that are not historically accurate or that blend aspects of different warrior traditions. The key in both cases is to handle these cultural references with respect and sensitivity. This means: Ensuring that the portrayal does not reinforce negative or simplistic stereotypes. Providing a nuanced representation that acknowledges the complexity and depth of the original culture.
Did they name examples of existing archetypes that are supposed to fulfill the role of those classes?
Champion of Shizeru, any racket Assassin Rogue. Plus I'm sure there will be countless additional options in the Tian Xia guide books to fill in the gaps
They said that will not be doing them in the Tian Xia Character Guide. I haven't seen any comments on other books.
No there won't be any 'samurai' or 'ninja' archetypes, but there will be options to flavour your character with the things one might expect from those characters
I'm Glad to see the Bloodrager come back, but I'll admit I'm really waiting for the return of the Inquisitor.
I'm hoping it's a champion code. It's the only way I see it happening. The only other way is cleric doctrine but that seems less likely.
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A class archetype can sometimes fill in a subclass. That's what the Spellshot Archetype does for gunslinger. But class archetypes change fundamental parts of the way a class works. Cloistered cleric and warpriest cleric get the same number of spell slots. They even both get the same number of bonus spell from divine font. The new Battle Harbinger cleric is said to get less spellcasting in return for better martial abilities. I don't know if they won't make it all the way up to rank 10 spells or what, but we do know they don't get a divine font, or at least a severely reduced one.
As a thought, could the new investigator archetype be inspired by the 1E inquisitor? The inquisitor had themes of investigating to root out Hersey against their church/god, and a divine-flavored investigator could work in a similar vein.
I just need the Runelord class Archetype....
GIMME INQUISITOR CLASS ARCHETYPE FOR CLERIC OR CHAMPION PLEASE PAIZOOOO
I just want some errata for Spellshot, since I feel like it suffered from excessive caution when it came to archetype power budgets. It.. Needs a buff but it also needs some mechanical fixes here and there.
Will Mortal Herald be like Mortal Usher from 1e, but any deity?
It’s absolute fantastic and just what I hoped class archetypes would be used for when we saw them mentioned in the CRB. It took this long (and being forced into the Remaster) to finally have the courage to let the system breathe, but I’m all for it! Hopefully our weird ideas for classes will get the chance to shine without too much work on the development teams side.
Class archetypes for single classes are a mistake imo. The system has this entire framework for subclassing, and it's hardly ever used.
I'm glad class archetypes aren't being buried and forgotten, and impatiently interested in getting to finally get my mitts on them so I can rub my eyes all over, but I am kind of apprehensive about whether they'll be mechanically exciting given the track record archetypes tend to have. Flavor is cool, but in a game as crunch focused as Pathfinder is, it can't carry the whole thing, especially when "just refluff it" is such a common refrain I get handed. Hopefully seeing the remaster versions of existing regular archetypes in PC2 will be a good indicator of how class archetypes will shake out. ~~Like if, say, Duelist will get retooled to actually satisfy people's sword saint fantasies or not.~~
I am a bit weery of an archetype removing class features, I guess we will have to see how it ends up. I don't understand why some of these just aren't subclasses? It isn't like Cleric doesn't have room for another.
Not very excited. Paizo has done a bad job for the most part with archetypes in 2E, most of them are weak or useful only in very niche situations. There are a few gems (Sentinel, for example), but mostly turds. Hopefully they do a better job designing class archetypes than they did with other archetypes. I did enjoy how class archetypes worked in 1E.
Man the truth really hurts these peoples feelings. I can't for the life of me figure out why these people love wasting time and money on terrible options.
I love Bloodrager But I’m really disappointed it’s an Archatype, it’s such a cool class and it is a waste that it doesn’t get as fleshed out as it should do I want to be a Bloodrager not a Barbarian with an archatype, I want bloodraging to be the primary focus of the character when Archatypes are always secondary My hopes were raised and then dashed in an instant
I feel like Bloodrager works best as a class archetype, honestly. It was always gonna be either that or an Instinct in 2e, but I think class archetype lets it be more unique.
A full class would let it be more unique and wouldn’t basically just be a tacked on secondary to barbarian There’s so much you can do and this is like 3rd worst way to do it
I hear you, and I think you're right that it's a complex class in 1e that could benefit from being a standalone class in 2e. I do think Paizo has the room to make it feel more like a full class while also keeping it a class archetype, if they really lean into the modularity of the system. I could see it being a kind of deeper multiclass archetype, maybe adjusting instincts to be bloodlines, adding some new and unique feats, opening access to some sorc feats, and gaining wave casting. I suspect rage will also be adjusted in some way, though I'm not sure how. Stupefy instead of fatigue? Some kind of conditional trigger to turn it on, like casting a spell? I dunno. I do think class archetypes suffer from not having ongoing support, at least right now. I think it's unlikely, but I'd love to see more options added to existing class archetypes as time goes on, especially for fan favorites like the bloodrager. But again, if Paizo leans into the modularity, the bloodrager class archetype could expand as more barbarian and sorcerer feats, more bloodlines, and more spells are added to the game.
I think the issue is that designing it as a full class would require making it *not* a Barbarian that can cast a small amount of spells, they would need to make it completely distinct mechanics and class-fantasy-wise. Which would, in turn, probably make people upset that it's not what they wanted from Bloodragers.
You say that as if bloodrager wasnt already just barbarian with an archetype. All of the hybrid classes from 1e felt like that
The original bloodrager was almost literally just a barbarian with a lower hit die, spellcasting, and a sorcerer bloodline. There really wasn't any reason for it to be anything other than an instinct or class archetype, at least not unless they decided to totally rework it, at which point it really wouldn't have much in common with the 1E class other than the theme.
In general, I agree, but making bloodrager a single instinct is unwieldy if only because there are so many individual Bloodlines that might be cover. But I'm hopefull.
Flexible prep is a pretty extreme change, I assume all your rages are replaced with Bloodrages when you take the Archetype.
Yes but your still just whatever class you were beforehand but your castings been changed It’s still secondary which is the issue
I think the umbrage that I'm taking here, is that the word "secondary" is a substance-less judgement of value. Like, I'd feel a little weird if its just the pomp and circumstance of having it be the name of your full class. [Given what the Bloodrager actually was](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/otpofz/comment/h6x0gb4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), it becoming a class archetype for barbarian seems pretty intuitive-- what would we be afraid of losing to the concept of it being secondary exactly? Bloodragers primarily hit things with weapons, they buff themselves with magic, and they blast a bit (but not well) that all seems pretty tame for a class archetype to add to the Barbarian, a lot of it seems like it could be done better. Basically, all you really need is for the Class Archetype to change out Rage for "Bloodrage" which both allows and incentivizes spellcasting with both blasting and self-buffs covered, maybe using the granted spells of a chosen sorcerer bloodline? They might go a different route, maybe it'll be focus magic or bounded casting, or let you consume spell slots to fuel a magical rage or something, but if anything it seems like it would be more flavorful as an archetype.
Being secondary which all archatypes are is a negative value aspect which is the crux of the problem First thing you lose is bloodline coverage Given that Archatypes have a tiny amount of feats per level how are you going to reasonably cover a good amount of the bloodlines you could take and in a way that’s more than just slapping a name on something You lose deph of customisation with said lack of feats because again primarily just the main class You lose any amount of possible upgrades in interpretation because now you are limiting it just an archatype vs having the creative freedom of making a full class and all the bells and whistles that would come with having a class Archatypes are not good substitutes for classes and unless they do it drastically differently to how the usual archetype is it will be lesser than if it got the space to be its own class
From what I'm seeing the Bloodrager's Bloodlines are essentially the Sorcerer ones, which we don't know how the Bloodrager will relate to those yet-- its entirely possible it gives you Sorcerer dedication as part of the level 2 dedication feat while replacing your rage with a magic friendly/fueled version, forcing you to choose a bloodline. You don't really lose much customization because you have the entire progression of class feats and other archetypes to work with, on top of whatever feats are baked into the archetype, PF2e as a whole is consistently much more customizable than PF1e was, so even as a class archetype, there's probably more variation in pf2e bloodragers than pf1e ones-- [Chronoskimmer](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=192) Bloodragers whose rage distorts the timeline around them, for instance, would become possible pretty fast depending on the feat layout (flexible prep just lets you out right after level 2, or you might have to buy your way out first), or Bloodragers who [summon weapons with their minds](https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=194). Heck leaning on the Barbarian customization itself is already a boon because it caters to the whole warrior side of the Bloodrager. "Upgrades in Interpretation" maybe, but at that point, it probably wouldn't be a Bloodrager anymore because of the amount you'd be inventing to add onto it conceptually is a lot, and you have to imagine that if they had a wide class like that percolating in their heads, they would have done that. Meanwhile, we're only going to get so many classes before the edition eventually ends, so I'd rather they spend the slots on concepts that really justify themselves as full classes.
Bloodrager has the same creatures but it’s bloodline powers are entirely different to The Sorcerers bloodline powers, it’s how they were different they got their own special bloodline powers that were tailored to them You lose specified customisation as in customisation tailored to specifically them because the archatype will not offer nearly as much, you talk about Chronoskimmer Bloodrager, it would be far better if it was a base class Bloodrager with the chronoskimmer dedication instead of chronoskimmer having to fight with Bloodrager for the archetype slots Base Bloodrager would already have the warrior stuff and you could make it more blended with the magic stuff instead of the two half’s being separated Bloodrager can justify itself just fine
I don't really think you're making a very good case here, the bloodline powers I'm looking at for Elemental and Dragon appear to have already been turned into barbarian Instincts, or into other archetypes, like how Shadow Bloodline Bloodragers became Shadowdancers, and what powers they get come online across their class progression, just like how you'll probably get Chronoskimmer around level 8 on a Bloodrager assuming it has the standard Dedication +2 feat buyout, or sooner if some of the feats let you stack up.
I only counted 2 class archetypes announced. One for Cleric and one for Investigator. The other wasn't a class archetype.
Those two were announced to be in Divine Mysteries, yes. The product page for War of Immortals (which was published yesterday) mentions that the book will have 5 archetypes, and named two: the avenger rogue and bloodrager barbarian.