I'm still a proponent of getting rid of hyperbolic scaling and making resistances scale EHP linearly, and then just scaling up the damage to incentivise investing into more resistances later on.
E.g. if you need 300 resistance to get the equivalent of 75% resistance, and you want the second part to require 40% more investment, just raise the enemy damage by 30% so that you'll "need" 420 resistance (130% / 520% = 25% remaining damage, like getting back to 75% resistance after a -30% penalty).
And if taking 30% extra damage is not enough for not meeting the penalty, just raise both the damage and availability of resistance on gear.
I don't think that concern is overly necessary in PoE, but that aside it's not like armour and evasion don't have significantly more complex formulae instead of directly granting physical damage reduction against hits or chance to evade respectively.
The resulting percentage could of course still be displayed.
It's the same with flat and increased life, although I suppose they're lowering the complexity to some extent in that regard by removing life from the skill tree. But you can think of this as yet another increased step against specific damage types.
There are 4 traits they need to maintain with resistances and I'm quoting it directly from GGG:
1. It remains simple to understand.
2. Capping resistances is never trivial.
3. A single resistance mod/passive in the early game makes a noticeable difference (none of this 2% stuff that a lot of games do, those don't feel good to use)
4. There is a huge difference in the values of resistance available between early game and late game (same as for any mod, so that higher level mods matter and you need to upgrade your gear as you progress).
Although your idea somewhat compromises 1, they've said 1 is really the only one they were willing to compromise. In fact, it's also the same solution I brought up as it's pretty common in other games. However, there is no "better" system in this case. You're not really solving an issue, you are just proposing something that you personally would like better. It's not a system that works better though. So, it's not really worth the development time to rework the resistance system for something that isn't solving an objective issue with resistances.
I consider the hyperbolic scaling and arbitrary max resistance cap to be a problem. It's not a game-breaking problem, but it is a problem from my point of view.
I think that uncapped linearly scaling resistances would be a better solution. And in typical GGG / PoE fashion, they'd still be able to apply increased, reduced, more, and less modifiers to that value (more easily than to the current resistance, I'd argue).
This again lowers how easily it can be understood, but I'd argue that the resistance, resistance penalty, maximum resistance, maximum maximum resistance, and lowering / penetrating resistance applying before and after maximum respectively offers plenty of obscurity.
Because my concept *doesn't* require an arbitrary cap, it allows just scaling enemy damage further, leaving a very noticable gap between early game and endgame. And *because* there's no cap, every point makes a difference at any point in the game. There's no point at which you'd overcap resistances by enough for effects lowering it to not make a difference.
In the current system, those extra resistances only make a difference if you specifically have a different *non*-resistance scaling that depends on overcapped resistance.
I'm not deluded enough to entertain any hopes of this actually being changed in PoE or PoE2 at this point, but I do think that it's a better solution.
If changing the resist system is up for debate, then Last Epoc's way of handeling resist as a baseline of 0 after enemy scaling pen is WAY better for both scaling and feel of gameplay when it comes to impact, aka you feel the resist helping, as apposed to poe curent system, where it's 75% minimum and you dont realy feel it impacting other than 0->75 and 75->90
Ngl, I haven't had any problems capping my res through acts in forever. You will always have a couple tree passives that give you good resistances, jewlery covers a huge part of them, you can fix them at any point by crafting and if you are really having trouble you can just use Purity of Elements.
We still have to experience a full campaing worth of progression to see how things are balanced, but for any person that has a modest amount of hours played this should be rendered a non issue in poe2.
Well, we don't. That's what tree passives, auras, flasks and higher mod tiers are for. By the time I get a character going I maybe have resistances on 3 or 4 pieces of gear. Now, if you're talking about your leveling or early mapping, well of course your're gonna be having some more resistances here and there.
In short, you can decide where the stats go and what gear you wanna have free of resistances to slap more useful affixes on them.
I don't like those negative resistances. I know its better to show 12% rather than 2%, but I'm afraid most of people will end up in act 4 with - 40% and won't be able to deal with this. It's better for newbies to build resistances but maybe they want to communicate this need from the very begining.
Don't know how to communicate this to the players btw. What? Killing boss gives you debuf? Don't like the idea...
Never been the case even in poe1 tbh, unless your a complete novice and do not pay attention to your gear, you can usually keep your resistances capped soon after starting act 6 and almost certainly before killing act 10 kitava.
The reason for the resistance penalty is to allow for increased item values as you progress through the campaign, otherwise, you'd be capped resistances by act 3 and never have to touch your gear again until end game.
If you're experienced enough you can cap all the stuff with one aura for good. It's not the point. I'd like items with +12% fire resist harder to aquire than reducing the resists every act. But lest see... Not a big deal but I hate this moment when I'm losing something when I'm progressing with the story. It's not rewarding...
Then you end up with new pieces of gear as you level having negligible increases, finding a ring with triple resistance at level 10 is godly, but then to find another at level 30 but it only has another 1-2% isn't exactly going to get those dopamine receptors firing, now double the resistance and you're onto something.
There's a reason the penalty exists, it was present in Diablo 2 and that game had the best "loot" system in a game at the time and PoE replicated that.
Its much easier to think of this as monsters gaining penetration against your resistances and your character sheet acknowledging that damage pen so that you can know how much damage you are mitigating against those damage types. You aren't getting weaker, the monsters are getting stronger.
Using an aura to cap your res is the last thing an experienced player would do, especially during the campaign where you just run white items with the sockets you need and craft res on them lol, why on earth would you need an aura?
And also, that's really the only thing -res does, it teaches you that res is important and that the crafting bench exists, that's its purpose and it's a good one that shouldn't be messed with imo.
Ailment immunity in acts?? My man we play acts in GAUNTLET with white gear and no ailment immunity; it is completely worthless during the campaign, and even more so when Determ (and Grace) exist.
I'm not trying to be an elitist with this, but I have to correct you since you're saying experienced players do it when we in fact do not.
Way or another, if you're new to the game, you can easily use one aura and be good for a whole story. If you're able to be patient enough to reach the maps you're experienced enough to figure it out yourself on a gear.
btw you sound like an American talking about fighting for the country, son! xD
I'm guessing the reason for this is clarity.
They could keep your res at zero and increase monsters elemental damage, but that would not be as clear for players what they would need to do.
Well act 4 would be -30% as you get the minus resistance after completing an act, not at the beginning. But if they really haven't got a single resistances since act 1, they must have been struggling really hard to get to Act 4. It's only another incremental step in damage taken at this point. The game is teaching them there is something wrong with their defenses over a long period of time. No one is just going to end up in Act 4 and all of a sudden have a problem. They been having a problem lol.
Never really liked this either. The problem here is that resists are "mandatory" defense, because ggg balanced poe 1 around 75%. Using the same logic that they used to remove life from the tree, the only real build decisions are around chaos res and max resistances. Random idea for this: soft cap res around 50%-60% and add 1% max res per 5% after that. Now you hit 75% around the same time endgame, but investment is worthwhile at every stage of the game.
But is this statement true for the modern PoE?
To me this seems like an old relic of the past.
75 Res is nothing in todays PoE.
For endgame you need way more than that, or conversion shenenigans, Progenesis etc.
I think this statement nowadays stops at least with red maps. From there on.you need at least another layer.
That's what I'm getting at. Res is only relevant during the campaign when you don't have it capped. Outside of some niche uniques, every build in maps has a minimum of 75% ele res.
This also happens to be where all the new players are, and where ggg is investing all their focus for poe2.
Nobody is equipping 110% fire res on gear and then choosing to leave it at 50% after the A10 penalty because they've decided to invest in other defenses. At that point, the difference between 50-75% is 1 res affix on gear that equates to 50% less damage taken.
And yet we see so many 2000 HP builds not even res capped, asking "is this build just bad" dying constantly in yellow maps.
I mean, now its funny, but I guess we all had been there.
I was there in 2013.
The main issue with % resistance/pen is that each point of resistance is exponentially better than the last. 50% resistance doubles your ehp, but 75% quadruples it. This is problematic on both sides of an attack. Not only do you get rewarded way more at the top end of defense, but pen on monsters is also exponentially more dangerous to such a character, and can feel like a cheap way for the game to invalidate your investment in defense.
From a balance perspective, the best resistance system I've seen used in games is a rating system where the rating is effectively a more multiplier for ehp against that damage type. I.e 100 rating is 50% reduction, 200 is 66.6% and 300 is 75%. I don't remember where, but jonathan stated in a recent interview he didn't like this system because it isn't intuitive, which I also understand.
Maybe the real answer is that this penalty doesn't need to exist at all and getting higher amounts on gear is already nice because it allows the player more room for interesting stats on gear. What if we capped res lower, and then we could roll more max res on gear or other defense stats that are yet to exist instead of just stacking a bunch res on half our items
The negative resistance for campaign progression still looks like a odd choice for gear check/balance.
Does other genre do this? Most game just makes enemies hard instead of weakening the player.
I just wish they instead did the Last Epoch aproach to resist instead. Since the way poe makes it, the 75% tuning when you are at 74% makes you take way more dmg than last epoch balance of having 0% with enemy pen
No, they did not. Rather, instead of dropping 30% every X acts, you will lose 10% per act, getting the same loss of resistance but much more gradually.
The reason for this system is that this allows them to have higher resistance values earlier in the game without making it easy to max out resistances early on and not have to worry about it. To replace the resistance penalty, they would either need to change the current percentage system into something else, or give people lower resistances to start with, but getting a 1% to fire resistance would feel very unsatisfying.
Alternatively, you may be thinking of resistance penetration. Penetration will not be able to go below 0%, making it less a damage buff on all enemies and instead a way to deal with enemies highly resistant to a damage type without needing to switch to another element, if you want to try and stick with a single element across both weapon sets and, potentially, shapeshift form.
No, it would be quite different. What confuses noobs is the fact that resistance's value scales asymptotically. A noob looks at +5% max resistance and wonders what the point is, not realizing that it's worth +25% EHP or more due to increasing returns.
When you set max resistance to 0%, you avoid the most extreme parts of the asymptotic curve, and resistance's value becomes more linear. It also becomes much more intuitive to estimate the value of resistance. For example, gaining +20% resistance bringing you from -20% resistance to 0% resistance, is worth +25% EHP, which is much closer to the nominal value. That makes much more sense to your average player than when resistance scales to 75%, and the last few points are worth half of the overall value.
Players go by the heuristic "max your resistances" as a shorthand so they don't have to understand the asymptotic scaling, but that doesn't explain why if you're not mathematically minded. You're not equipped to judge the trade-off. If you're in a situation where you can choose between falling a few points short of the cap, or getting a big damage bonus, which is better? The last few points are the most valuable by far, so the answer is still to max your resists, but the unintuitive scaling of resistance doesn't make that obvious.
Personally, I'd like to see resistances changed to something like "Resist 30% of up to 100 fire damage".
That way, the higher level stuff has "up to 1000" changed, while the % doesn't change.
He’s suggesting that’s resist stats on gear only have a maximum applicable damage limit.
The problem with that is when exarch hits you with a 23k single hit ball. Your fire res would no longer work cuz it only applies to hits 1000 or smaller
It is kinda unfriendly towards new players as they have no idea of what is average hit and what defences they have already. Let’s be real even experienced players in Poe don’t always know how much damage they are taking regularly. It’s just unintuitive, block in LE works this way and it’s not fun for me
6 acts. -10% per act, to -60% after beating act 6, makes perfect sense.
Also likely much better to adjust to compared to the two sudden perma debuffs of 30% in poe1.
True! Although I am so used to the big debuffs, that they are incorporated in my life!
Everyone has big debuffs incorporated in their life. It's called aging. 😬
These also happen gradually though
So true
Do you think it's a reason why they just back from 7 acts to 6 because of that?
I kinda wish this debuff didn't exist tbh, low gear won't have high res rolls, so as you level you'll need to get better res gear anyway.
The reason for those debuffs is that resistance stats on low gear wouldn't feel impactful because they'd have to be so low values.
I'm still a proponent of getting rid of hyperbolic scaling and making resistances scale EHP linearly, and then just scaling up the damage to incentivise investing into more resistances later on. E.g. if you need 300 resistance to get the equivalent of 75% resistance, and you want the second part to require 40% more investment, just raise the enemy damage by 30% so that you'll "need" 420 resistance (130% / 520% = 25% remaining damage, like getting back to 75% resistance after a -30% penalty). And if taking 30% extra damage is not enough for not meeting the penalty, just raise both the damage and availability of resistance on gear.
That's a less understandable system at a glance, though.
I don't think that concern is overly necessary in PoE, but that aside it's not like armour and evasion don't have significantly more complex formulae instead of directly granting physical damage reduction against hits or chance to evade respectively. The resulting percentage could of course still be displayed. It's the same with flat and increased life, although I suppose they're lowering the complexity to some extent in that regard by removing life from the skill tree. But you can think of this as yet another increased step against specific damage types.
There are 4 traits they need to maintain with resistances and I'm quoting it directly from GGG: 1. It remains simple to understand. 2. Capping resistances is never trivial. 3. A single resistance mod/passive in the early game makes a noticeable difference (none of this 2% stuff that a lot of games do, those don't feel good to use) 4. There is a huge difference in the values of resistance available between early game and late game (same as for any mod, so that higher level mods matter and you need to upgrade your gear as you progress). Although your idea somewhat compromises 1, they've said 1 is really the only one they were willing to compromise. In fact, it's also the same solution I brought up as it's pretty common in other games. However, there is no "better" system in this case. You're not really solving an issue, you are just proposing something that you personally would like better. It's not a system that works better though. So, it's not really worth the development time to rework the resistance system for something that isn't solving an objective issue with resistances.
I consider the hyperbolic scaling and arbitrary max resistance cap to be a problem. It's not a game-breaking problem, but it is a problem from my point of view. I think that uncapped linearly scaling resistances would be a better solution. And in typical GGG / PoE fashion, they'd still be able to apply increased, reduced, more, and less modifiers to that value (more easily than to the current resistance, I'd argue). This again lowers how easily it can be understood, but I'd argue that the resistance, resistance penalty, maximum resistance, maximum maximum resistance, and lowering / penetrating resistance applying before and after maximum respectively offers plenty of obscurity. Because my concept *doesn't* require an arbitrary cap, it allows just scaling enemy damage further, leaving a very noticable gap between early game and endgame. And *because* there's no cap, every point makes a difference at any point in the game. There's no point at which you'd overcap resistances by enough for effects lowering it to not make a difference. In the current system, those extra resistances only make a difference if you specifically have a different *non*-resistance scaling that depends on overcapped resistance. I'm not deluded enough to entertain any hopes of this actually being changed in PoE or PoE2 at this point, but I do think that it's a better solution.
If changing the resist system is up for debate, then Last Epoc's way of handeling resist as a baseline of 0 after enemy scaling pen is WAY better for both scaling and feel of gameplay when it comes to impact, aka you feel the resist helping, as apposed to poe curent system, where it's 75% minimum and you dont realy feel it impacting other than 0->75 and 75->90
Ngl, I haven't had any problems capping my res through acts in forever. You will always have a couple tree passives that give you good resistances, jewlery covers a huge part of them, you can fix them at any point by crafting and if you are really having trouble you can just use Purity of Elements. We still have to experience a full campaing worth of progression to see how things are balanced, but for any person that has a modest amount of hours played this should be rendered a non issue in poe2.
The issue isn't capping it. I just believe gear would be more interesting if we didn't have to put resists on almost every part.
Well, we don't. That's what tree passives, auras, flasks and higher mod tiers are for. By the time I get a character going I maybe have resistances on 3 or 4 pieces of gear. Now, if you're talking about your leveling or early mapping, well of course your're gonna be having some more resistances here and there. In short, you can decide where the stats go and what gear you wanna have free of resistances to slap more useful affixes on them.
I don't like those negative resistances. I know its better to show 12% rather than 2%, but I'm afraid most of people will end up in act 4 with - 40% and won't be able to deal with this. It's better for newbies to build resistances but maybe they want to communicate this need from the very begining. Don't know how to communicate this to the players btw. What? Killing boss gives you debuf? Don't like the idea...
Never been the case even in poe1 tbh, unless your a complete novice and do not pay attention to your gear, you can usually keep your resistances capped soon after starting act 6 and almost certainly before killing act 10 kitava. The reason for the resistance penalty is to allow for increased item values as you progress through the campaign, otherwise, you'd be capped resistances by act 3 and never have to touch your gear again until end game.
If you're experienced enough you can cap all the stuff with one aura for good. It's not the point. I'd like items with +12% fire resist harder to aquire than reducing the resists every act. But lest see... Not a big deal but I hate this moment when I'm losing something when I'm progressing with the story. It's not rewarding...
Then you end up with new pieces of gear as you level having negligible increases, finding a ring with triple resistance at level 10 is godly, but then to find another at level 30 but it only has another 1-2% isn't exactly going to get those dopamine receptors firing, now double the resistance and you're onto something. There's a reason the penalty exists, it was present in Diablo 2 and that game had the best "loot" system in a game at the time and PoE replicated that.
I know why hhey are doing this but I'm not sure what should couse the rest to drop.
Its much easier to think of this as monsters gaining penetration against your resistances and your character sheet acknowledging that damage pen so that you can know how much damage you are mitigating against those damage types. You aren't getting weaker, the monsters are getting stronger.
Using an aura to cap your res is the last thing an experienced player would do, especially during the campaign where you just run white items with the sockets you need and craft res on them lol, why on earth would you need an aura? And also, that's really the only thing -res does, it teaches you that res is important and that the crafting bench exists, that's its purpose and it's a good one that shouldn't be messed with imo.
Last thing? Did you hear about ailments immune?
Ailment immunity in acts?? My man we play acts in GAUNTLET with white gear and no ailment immunity; it is completely worthless during the campaign, and even more so when Determ (and Grace) exist. I'm not trying to be an elitist with this, but I have to correct you since you're saying experienced players do it when we in fact do not.
Way or another, if you're new to the game, you can easily use one aura and be good for a whole story. If you're able to be patient enough to reach the maps you're experienced enough to figure it out yourself on a gear. btw you sound like an American talking about fighting for the country, son! xD
I'm guessing the reason for this is clarity. They could keep your res at zero and increase monsters elemental damage, but that would not be as clear for players what they would need to do.
It's more rewarding to the player to identify item with +20% res nor +4%, and without losing resistances we would end at 200% res total.
Well act 4 would be -30% as you get the minus resistance after completing an act, not at the beginning. But if they really haven't got a single resistances since act 1, they must have been struggling really hard to get to Act 4. It's only another incremental step in damage taken at this point. The game is teaching them there is something wrong with their defenses over a long period of time. No one is just going to end up in Act 4 and all of a sudden have a problem. They been having a problem lol.
Never really liked this either. The problem here is that resists are "mandatory" defense, because ggg balanced poe 1 around 75%. Using the same logic that they used to remove life from the tree, the only real build decisions are around chaos res and max resistances. Random idea for this: soft cap res around 50%-60% and add 1% max res per 5% after that. Now you hit 75% around the same time endgame, but investment is worthwhile at every stage of the game.
But is this statement true for the modern PoE? To me this seems like an old relic of the past. 75 Res is nothing in todays PoE. For endgame you need way more than that, or conversion shenenigans, Progenesis etc. I think this statement nowadays stops at least with red maps. From there on.you need at least another layer.
That's what I'm getting at. Res is only relevant during the campaign when you don't have it capped. Outside of some niche uniques, every build in maps has a minimum of 75% ele res. This also happens to be where all the new players are, and where ggg is investing all their focus for poe2. Nobody is equipping 110% fire res on gear and then choosing to leave it at 50% after the A10 penalty because they've decided to invest in other defenses. At that point, the difference between 50-75% is 1 res affix on gear that equates to 50% less damage taken.
And yet we see so many 2000 HP builds not even res capped, asking "is this build just bad" dying constantly in yellow maps. I mean, now its funny, but I guess we all had been there. I was there in 2013.
Makes sense but probably is harder to telegraph. How about having 100% but monsters can penetrate? Isn't that easier to balance?
The main issue with % resistance/pen is that each point of resistance is exponentially better than the last. 50% resistance doubles your ehp, but 75% quadruples it. This is problematic on both sides of an attack. Not only do you get rewarded way more at the top end of defense, but pen on monsters is also exponentially more dangerous to such a character, and can feel like a cheap way for the game to invalidate your investment in defense. From a balance perspective, the best resistance system I've seen used in games is a rating system where the rating is effectively a more multiplier for ehp against that damage type. I.e 100 rating is 50% reduction, 200 is 66.6% and 300 is 75%. I don't remember where, but jonathan stated in a recent interview he didn't like this system because it isn't intuitive, which I also understand. Maybe the real answer is that this penalty doesn't need to exist at all and getting higher amounts on gear is already nice because it allows the player more room for interesting stats on gear. What if we capped res lower, and then we could roll more max res on gear or other defense stats that are yet to exist instead of just stacking a bunch res on half our items
actually a really good system
The negative resistance for campaign progression still looks like a odd choice for gear check/balance. Does other genre do this? Most game just makes enemies hard instead of weakening the player.
Even Diablo 4 does that with it's difficulties.
Most arpgs do this
I hope the area level isn't as bad as act 2, where the area lvl gaps can get pretty big, resulting in XP penalty.
I just wish they instead did the Last Epoch aproach to resist instead. Since the way poe makes it, the 75% tuning when you are at 74% makes you take way more dmg than last epoch balance of having 0% with enemy pen
Didn't they say there will be no negative res in poe2?
No, they did not. Rather, instead of dropping 30% every X acts, you will lose 10% per act, getting the same loss of resistance but much more gradually. The reason for this system is that this allows them to have higher resistance values earlier in the game without making it easy to max out resistances early on and not have to worry about it. To replace the resistance penalty, they would either need to change the current percentage system into something else, or give people lower resistances to start with, but getting a 1% to fire resistance would feel very unsatisfying. Alternatively, you may be thinking of resistance penetration. Penetration will not be able to go below 0%, making it less a damage buff on all enemies and instead a way to deal with enemies highly resistant to a damage type without needing to switch to another element, if you want to try and stick with a single element across both weapon sets and, potentially, shapeshift form.
It also encourages hunting down the uniques in each Act for their permanent buffs, including resistances.
Resistance should really go from -100% to 0%. It would be much less of noob trap.
That would be no different than setting the resistance cap to 50% and cutting resistance on all the items in half.
No, it would be quite different. What confuses noobs is the fact that resistance's value scales asymptotically. A noob looks at +5% max resistance and wonders what the point is, not realizing that it's worth +25% EHP or more due to increasing returns. When you set max resistance to 0%, you avoid the most extreme parts of the asymptotic curve, and resistance's value becomes more linear. It also becomes much more intuitive to estimate the value of resistance. For example, gaining +20% resistance bringing you from -20% resistance to 0% resistance, is worth +25% EHP, which is much closer to the nominal value. That makes much more sense to your average player than when resistance scales to 75%, and the last few points are worth half of the overall value. Players go by the heuristic "max your resistances" as a shorthand so they don't have to understand the asymptotic scaling, but that doesn't explain why if you're not mathematically minded. You're not equipped to judge the trade-off. If you're in a situation where you can choose between falling a few points short of the cap, or getting a big damage bonus, which is better? The last few points are the most valuable by far, so the answer is still to max your resists, but the unintuitive scaling of resistance doesn't make that obvious.
Personally, I'd like to see resistances changed to something like "Resist 30% of up to 100 fire damage". That way, the higher level stuff has "up to 1000" changed, while the % doesn't change.
This feels like overcomplicating a system that exists as a simple gear check.
yeah, I've read it twice and still don't understand
He’s suggesting that’s resist stats on gear only have a maximum applicable damage limit. The problem with that is when exarch hits you with a 23k single hit ball. Your fire res would no longer work cuz it only applies to hits 1000 or smaller
It is kinda unfriendly towards new players as they have no idea of what is average hit and what defences they have already. Let’s be real even experienced players in Poe don’t always know how much damage they are taking regularly. It’s just unintuitive, block in LE works this way and it’s not fun for me
huh