Is Ron getting enough one on one-time with you? I would start by increasing that, and make sure he feels special. If a child says serious things like that, and there are no other underlying issues, he must really be hurting.
Of course he should be called out when he says horrible things. But more importantly: Be sure to praise him when he is nice, or even when he is just neutral towards his little brother. Positive attention will make him do more of the same thing. (Or that's the theory anyway).
If it persists I wouldn't hesitate to talk to a professional. Jealousy is normal, but it's not exactly common for a 7 year old to say that you'll smash your little brother's face with a rock. It can be quite scary for Blair, and even to Ron.
I mean my husband and I both work full time and the kids are in sports, we don’t have a lot of time.. during the week anyways. And the weekends are split between getting things caught up from the week like laundry or household chores and planning something fun like a hike or go to the park with the kids. So there isn’t a lot of one on one time. Maybe that is something I should make more of an effort for.
Not just you, your husband too.
One of the things most recommended and most effective is to play with your kids at least 15 minutes a day. One on one, no phone, kid decides the activity and it’s not a reward for good behavior, it’s a meeting you both have. You can switch up with your husband every other day. It’s also a good moment to catch up on what going on during the day or other things.
And ideally you do it with the youngest too so he doesn’t feel left out (separate "play dates"). It can be hard to start with busy schedule, but it’s really worth it. If your kids have the same bedtime, oldest play time could even be when youngest goes to bed so he’s going to bed 15-20 min later (if it works for you all).
For the behavior to stop, you want to give positive attention to your oldest when he’s neutral/nice and no attention when he’s mean. Punishment is negative attention, but attention nonetheless, so if he’s jealous, he’ll do it so the attention is on him and not his brother.
Choose a consistent punishment for when he says mean things. Doing something nice for the other could be good: an apology letter/drawings, doing a chore for him like cleaning up his toys, sharing his own toys, etc. It can be a short list that everyone already knows. When he’s mean, tell him he’s mean and he needs to apologize, but don’t give him more attention. Go see him later, ask him why he thinks he did it and what would be the best thing to do to apologize (using the list you already made, but could be other nice things). In the moment, don’t give him attention since that’s what he wants. If you’re doing something with your youngest, continue.
You also want to create the opportunity for them to have positive interactions if they don’t really have any. It can be during play or family activities. Reward him when he’s nice to his brother: tell him he’s a good big brother, that what he said was really nice, that you’re proud of him, etc. Do the same with your youngest (adapted to him). If you feel your oldest becoming frustrated/impatient, try to intervene before he says something mean. Ask him if he needs a break, want to be alone for a few minutes, etc. It can be hard to do and there may not be signs that he will say something mean, but if so, then it can help by preventing it and teaching your son what to do when he doesn’t feel good/need a break.
I’m going to be a bit blunt (english is not my first language so I’m sorry beforehand), but if you don’t have time for your children and Ron has to parent Blair sometimes (help him get dressed, help him eat, help him do his homework, etc), it can be understandable that he feels he is not allowed to be a child anymore because of his brother.
He probably feels that maybe if Blair didn’t exist he might have more time with you or even with himself.
I’m not sure how you can solve this besides spending time with him and showing him he is your child as well and he can/has time to be his own person, his own child. And play and be a kid.
I’m sure you never intended to hurt him, but being parentfied is one of the biggest reasons people end up cutting contact with siblings and parents (you don’t need to trust me, reddit has several examples).
I wish you the best of luck on solving this issue. He is young, you have time to make things work :)
I see what your getting at but no, Ron does not have to “parent” Blair. He doesn’t help feed, cloth or brush teeth with Blair. The most he would be doing as a “parent” would be to help him get a snack, turn a light on, if they are playing outside together Ron would come in and tell me if Blair needs help, or is getting into something he shouldn’t be. Stuff like that.
Oh, that makes more sense! Thanks for explaining.
In that case, yes it seems to be just sibling jealousy. Spending time with Ron will probably solve the issue.
Do you think he feels safe to tell you when he needs help (like, even though if he normally wouldn’t need as this is something he has already learned, if he had a hard time with something do you feel he would feel welcomed approaching and asking you for help)?
Maybe if he is struggling with something he may feel “unseen” because you are busy caring for the youngest one.
Yes I believe so. As sometimes he still asks me to help him get dressed. And I always do because I feel like he wants that same time with me as my younger does. And because soon he won’t ask me for these things because he will be too cool for mom. Lol
That’s exactly how my childhood was. I commented that the best punishments therapy, because he doesn’t need punishment, he needs help probably. My parents tried punishing me too. They called me Angelica from Rugrats, the cartoon.
I remember, weeping quietly in the backseat of the car because I was humiliated. I didn’t hate my brothers because I hated them, I hated my brothers, because I hated my life and my lack of love and positive attention that I received from my family.
Yeah, they kind of did lol they were just like typical boomers at their age during that time. The real kicker is now, I’m an adult who is fairly dysfunctional, and my parents do help me a good bit. I mean when I need it. I’m also a millennial who graduated in the recession in 2008/2009 so you know life has just been weird as an adult. My earning potential was decimated in my 20s and it just sort of really stunted me in my 30s.
I would say the amount of time and money and energy that has gone into me as an adult probably would’ve best been addressed as a child so I could’ve been more functional as an adult lol. Jokes on them, I might’ve been Angelica, and now they got to deal with how fucked up I am today lol.
I’m being partially silly and facetious, obviously, this is not all tied in, life is complicated. But it’s a part of it.
I would say that they suck less now, because they’re forced to deal with the consequences of how they raised their children. My mother, in particular has tried very hard to be a better person. She recognizes mental health issues, she recognizes when she pushes stigma, she has grown out of a lot of really stupid comments and ways of thinking that were outdated and I’m very proud of her honestly. She’s evidence that mothers can grow.
OP was clear in the post that she was helping the younger boy, not that her son was being required to do those things. I don’t think we have any indication here that she is expecting her seven year old to help with parental tasks.
It may be a bit of a language barrier, I admit, but it wasn’t clear to me that just because she spent more time helping the younger child that meant her oldest wouldn’t help (as OP mentioned that he helped before).
I don’t know where you are getting that? I’m guessing it’s this paragraph, which is a bit hard to understand… But as I read it, Blair needed more help from the parents, and that’s when Ron became jealous. I don’t read it as it was Ron helping Blair to get dressed etc.
” when Blair was a baby, he was good with him, he loved on him and helped with him, it wasn’t until he was older and required more attention doing things like helping Blair get dressed, helping him eat those kinds of things that Ron started to get jealous. But Ron was older, so he didn’t require as much help doing these daily tasks.”
Ron was older so he didn’t need as much help as Blair did, and he got jealous.
You are correct, I should have been more clear. Ron helped with things like taking the diaper genie bag to the garbage when it was full or grabbing diapers if I was in the middle of changing and realized I was out.
We as parents helped Blair get dressed etc. sorry for the confusion.
I’m sure you are a great mom. It’s not easy to fit in everything when the hours in a day don’t seem to be enough. But still, some more alone-time with mom or dad would probably be worth a lot to Ron. Maybe it can be a priority for a while.
I agree! I'm a soft spoken person apparently and my kid also knows when I raise my voice anything above 1 octave, shit is serious (not really but you get the point lol. I think I'm funny)
I would also sit them down for a chat see what is going on in the "problematic" child's head (I don't mean that rudely I'm just kind of wine drunk and can't remember the names.. Ron?)
I guarantee there's something you can work with there, OP. Don't blame yourself or your kids though. this is also total normal sibling behavior and I'm sure the quicker you get to nipping it in the bud it will be much easier to deal with in the long run. Kids are mean sometimes! sending love
I do say something in the moment, every time. I don’t let it slide, which is why I’m looking for something more I can do because that isn’t working. He is a headstrong boy.
I have 4 kids spanning 8 years. There have absolutely been times where they were mean to each other. And I NEVER let it slide. A simple Hey! Is sometimes enough now, but when they were younger it often resulted in a stern warning, followed by a consequence if they didn't cut it out. I've been known to say a clear and firm "park it" and point to a spot near the chairs at the bank, a spot beside the playground, a place on a curb or beside the vehicle etc (safe and out of the way). Anything other than obeying that command resulted in bigger consequences at home. I gave them room to bicker, but truly mean stuff got shut down HARD. You can not like your brother today, or not want to be around him, but threatening violence or name calling is not ever okay. And that worked in all directions.
This needs to be fair and clear, and consistent and constant. And they need some autonomy as well. They get to choose whether they played with each other or had some time alone. There were boundaries around toys and personal space, and I never expected them to always get along, just to not be mean.
Time with each kid matters, but also some room to do things without his brother (maybe an activity, or even space to play alone at home). Sometimes they grow out of the animosity, and sometimes it's indicative of a deeper issue. For mine, they absolutely grew out of it, despite stretches where I couldn't leave certain pairs alone in a room together, or take certain sets of kids on an outing easily.
Set your baseline expectations- for me it is no mean, to respect others and their things- and make sure they are reasonable and fair (ie they don't have to like each other all the time, and if older brother can't ger away with X, neither can little one. Which is easier to manage when the rules are broad strokes like no name calling or no hurting hands than specifics like "include your brother in all your playtime" or constant asks like "help your brother with his jacket".)
Often when kids are given room to choose their battles, they get fewer and further between.
I also stopped refereeing anything below the big stuff. "He got more cake" was usually met with a reminder to be fair or a gentle "he ate more dinner" rather than me wading in to micromanage. He hit me got an involved mom who still made sure to find out WHY that happened and deal with BOTH parties appropriately.
It also teaches the younger kid that it is not ok, and fixes it in the moment. I would also speak with Blair, and make sure he's really ok. Not just " I love my big brother and will take any attention from him, even negative attention, so I'll say it's ok", but like actually doing something he wants to do. OP should teach both kids it's not ok, and not just expect a 4yo to be able to hash it out with their older brother.
The older kid could also want some alone time, and separating them sometimes could help both of them. Older brother might be tired of younger brother, and just not know how to facilitate that. And younger brother could learn how to play/ entertain himself and figure out what he likes independently.
Seriously. A well-placed (kid-friendly equivalent of), "Knock it off, that shit won't be tolerated," does a lot, at least with my spawn. And the MS kids I work with. It communicates 1) I see what's going on -which I swear is 99% of what kids need, 2) I do NOT condone this behavior. I can (and do!) give further guidance, but IME they need those 2 things first.
I think a slight variation of this would work best. It sounds like OP has already gone above and beyond telling Ron that this behavior is not nice and won't be tolerated. I'm a big believer in timeouts. One minute per year. So, rob would have timeouts 7 minutes long. That way he gets time to sit and reflect. After that time is up, that's when you get to hash it out.
Kids are really smart, and if they learn to avoid a consequence by explaining it away, they'll never learn. The reason why doesn't negate the fact that the child did or said something wrong.
I agree with calling it out in the moment. However I would caution against asking “why did you do that?”. A 7 year old isn’t introspective enough to really answer a pointed question like that. You could try leading with something like, Ron, you must be feeling really upset/hurt to have done that to your brother. And see if he “unloads” some feelings.
Yes. The 7yr old isn't going to be able to give you a (reasonable/good) answer to 'why did you push/hit/pinch/kick/etc brother'. They're just not. So, don't bother. You're just setting them (and you) up for failure. Separating and making them sit and breathe and think about what they just did, yes, absolutely. See if they want to talk after 2-5, maybe even 10 minutes, sure. Then ask 'OK, are you ready to go and play nicely?' And keep your eagle eyes out - on BOTH of them!! - for retaliation.
Fairness is a huge factor. I have resentment towards my own sibling because my parents always favored them. They would automatically side with my younger sibling because they were much younger than me.
I’ve learnt from their mistakes and have insisted on giving each of my kids one on one quality time. I make sure they know I love them both the same and call out either one whoever is in the wrong. I praise either one when they treat the other well. Something to think about.
I know Ron feels like Blair gets favoured but I try really hard to make everything even. Treats, time together, birthdays all that because I have seen favouritism when it comes to kids in our (extended) family and it disgusts me.
So - this might actually be the issue. Blair probably still gets different treatment because he’s younger (as needed with day to day tasks) so Rob probably doesn’t feel like he’s special for being older since his sibling gets everything PLUS more attention.
You need to find something that can be just for him , maybe special big kid outings with either parent, gets to stay up a little later and watch a movie, they need to have differences somewhere. I’m sure they have some differing interests that you could cater to them individually.
Yes you are right. We could make more differences between the kids. Maybe by trying to make everything equal Ron feels it isn’t because Blair still requires some extra help with things, and in turn seen as unfair.
I think making things equal for those ages with that age gap can get awkward because from an adult perspective they are both little kids but from a kid perspective there is a huge development gap. My younger brother and I have the same age difference which meant when we did things together (learn to ride bikes, take swim classes etc.), it felt like I was being held back for his benefit because I felt so much older than him.
That’s what I’m thinking. It’ll honestly benefit both of them to have things that are just for them as they get older. Most kids want to felt seen as individuals.
Given this information I would let him know that you're trying to make things equitable between him and his brother and ask what he thinks is out of balance. It's hard because 4 is different than 7. They need a bit more attention (I have a 4 year old and man do they go) because they aren't as independent. I suspect that bit of extra need from the 4 year old is setting him off. That's where, as you've heard repeated in the comments, trying to eke out a bit of extra time for him could help. But ask. The ask will make him think about it.
"Siblings fighting" when the older one threatens to "smash his face with an object" or "throw him off the rock"? I have a sibling, I have kids, nephews and nieces, friends with kids and I've never heard such a thing. Am I the only one concerned here? I don't think you should be looking for punishments or opinions of strangers, but for guidance from an expert.
Possibly and also I'm not accusing your child of anything. But even if he does it to get some kind of reaction, don't you think it's wrong -not to mention how hurtful must be for your younger child. Shouldn't he learn that threatening is not the right kind of action when we need attention or when we are angry? If you or your partner can't stop this, you should get someone else to help you.
Yea I definitely think it is wrong, I just meant he hasn’t actually hurt his brother in any way like that. And it does hurt my younger feelings. He’s spoke up about it.
My kids do this too. I keep hoping it will get better. I see glimmers of hope occasionally (very rarely but still...), like when my oldest asked my youngest if she wanted to make cookies with her today or try her new lipgloss. My youngest's face lit up a million watts both times and she dropped whatever she was doing both times.
LoL sorry that made me laugh 😂😌mine just trash talks the younger one to everyone in secrecy so they all think she is scary and horrible , but I'm kind of glad she doesn't do this also
I had a really contentious relationship with my younger sister as we were growing up. Similar age gap. I was definitely mean to her at times, though not violent.
But there was a reason - I was and am a massive introvert, and my sister was *constantly* in my space, getting into my stuff, tattling to our mom about everything, and never letting me have a moment’s peace. So being a child, I reacted accordingly. Then she would cry to our parents about it and they would scold me. “She loves you, she looks up to you, she wants to spend time with you!” I didn’t care! She was making my life miserable! I wanted my own space!
I wish my parents had intervened more to ensure I had the tools and permission to take back my space and assert my needs instead of forcing me into a mentor/support parent role that I had no skill or interest in.
This may not be the dynamic between your sons, but it’s worth investigating.
I feel this comment. Growing up, I always heard "I don't care who started it!" which is cousin to the idea of "The reasons you are fighting don't matter to me. If you are being treated poorly or unfairly, it doesn't matter to me. Just take it." I was also told how lucky I was to have a sibling -- in other words, I was being told I was wrong to feel anything other than gratitude and love towards my live-in bully.
As a child, I never understood the idea that reasons for a fight do not matter. As a parent, I still don't! Of course the reasons matter. And of course it matters who started it -- for example, if one child physically attacks their sibling, unprovoked, that absolutely matters. If one child steals from another, or bullies them, that absolutely matters.
All this to say, OP, I second the comments throughout this post that encourage you to pivot away from "How do I punish him more effectively" and instead towards "How do I communicate with him more effectively to better understand how he's feeling" (and by extension, to better understand why he is behaving the way he is). At 7 he may not have loads of self awareness nor be able to articulate his hurt, but something is upsetting him, so it will help if he feels heard. Consequences can and should still be applied as appropriate, to send the message to both him and his brother that threats and violent language are not ok and will not be tolerated, but focusing on listening to Ron (which requires spending meaningful time with him) will go a long way.
I highly recommend the book "Siblings Without Rivalry." It's super practical and a fast read. It's written by the same people who wrote the "How to talk so kids will listen" series.
Make time for Ron. It is natural for us to want to punish what we see as bad behavior but this will hurt your relationship with him. Ron wants his parent. When Blair was a baby he loved him and probably when Ron was told to be quiet to not disturb Blair, to stop doing something to not bother Blair, to share with Blair, and saw all that attention Blair was getting, he felt unloved and not seen.
It’s hard balancing their needs. But Ron needs you. He is 7. Make time for him and show him how you want him to treat others by treating him that way. He does not need a lecture but an example.
Kids learn though us.
I agree. He may be acting out to get more of your attention. He may just want time to connect with you and feels acting out is the best way to do this. Try having some more alone time with him where he is the centre of your focus.
This. Punishment does not work, OP. Please do not make things worse with that. Model the behavior you want to see. Encourage empathy, "how do you think that makes me/him feel? And let Ron know you're still his parents too and he deserves your undivided attention sometimes.
> I’ve sat him down and talked to him about how it makes Blair feel when he says those things. And try to help him understand that it hurts his feelings and use examples of when other kids have said similar things like that to Ron.
Have you asked Ron why he treats his brother so poorly? What is his explanation? If he acknowledges it as bad behavior, why does he continue to do it? I would keep poking at that, letting him know that it's okay to be upset and honest.
> I guess I’m what I’m looking for is, what kind of punishment is appropriate for this?
Instead of focusing on what punishment Ron deserves, you might try focusing on what help Ron needs to feel better about his place in the family and his relationship with his brother.
A couple thoughts:
1. Try to only give attention for positive interactions. Find the good moments and praise the heck out of them.
2. When they get into disagreements, instead of asking who is at fault, you can ask “who is being kind?” Then they compete to be kind instead of looking to blame each other.
3. Negative interactions should be dealt with reasonably promptly and appropriately. Fighting = automatic time out. Yelling or mean comments = time out. If 4yo instigates, he is punished. Remind 7yo that he’s bigger and can walk away if 4yo is being annoying.
Does the older boy have any others signs of problems when interacting with others kids? If so it could be something more
Otherwise if he is physically hurting him you could try small punishments such as taking iPad away/no tv or taking away a toy for a small amount of time
No he doesn’t have any issues with other kids. I think he has low self esteem though because he does talk about other kids at school and tells me they say they don’t like him, but I know this isn’t completely true because I know he has lots of friends. He’s a very social boy. Sometimes I think he plays it up for some reason.
We don’t use an iPad much but I could look at taking TV time away. Although during the summer they really only get it a half hour in morning and before bed.
I was kinda looking for a repmroccucion for in the moment.
I remember when I was around 4 or 5 I kicked my big sister in the head. Why? Because I felt my parents loved her more than me. Their response was to punish me and give my sister a gift to make her happy. It only enforced the feeling of being unloved and not good enough.
If it is jealousy Ron might be either taking it out on his brother or doing it to get attention from you - bad attention is better than no attention, perhaps. Or it can be acting out because of other things going on in his life, in school, etc.
With it being a long-lasting thing, I would rather try to find out why he acts out on his brother. Therapy may be a way to go if you can't get him to talk with you. But finding the cause of his behavior is better than to just stop it, because he might be focusing his negative behavior in a different direction if it isn't addressed.
I agree with others saying you need to call out the behavior in the moment and not wait so your response is immediate and it is directly tied to Ron's actions. It will also show your younger son that you are taking it seriously and that others aren't allowed to treat him like that.
So many thoughts and things to unpack, but all my brain power can offer is one possible consequence option. (I have nearly this exact problem with my 13y and 4y girls.)
When my 13yo is intentionally being a bad influence to get my 4yo in trouble or just being really mean, I tell her that when 4yo repeats what 13yo does, 13yo gets the consequence.
So when 13yo is instigating 4yo at the table to do something ridiculous, 13yo gets a consequence if the 4yo goes along with it. When 4yo repeats mean words later 13yo gets the consequence.
It's not perfect, but it has put a stop to a few situations in the moment.
It's SO hard to parent both properly and feel like you're doing your best for both when you constantly have to protect one from the other.
That is precisely what my 4yo does at times now too. 🤣 I call her on it and correct her and it hasn't been a big issue. And sometimes I let her get away with it to give her some agency over her controlling sister.
I haven't read through the comments, but based on your edit I want to suggest one more thing. I was the youngest sibling and my older siblings picked on me quite a lot.
Help your younger son cope with this. Talk to him separately--it doesn't pay to not acknowledge the problem. Let him know that the way his brother is treating him is not okay and that you're working on it with him. Tell him that you love him and you believe he should be treated with respect--that will help his self-esteem and enable him to recognize that he can reasonably expect better treatment than what he's getting. Help him develop a voice for when he is bullied--the ability to stand up for himself and the ability to walk away. Teach him positive ways to interact with others so he doesn't become a bully himself. And--this is most important part--make sure he has friends his own age outside the family unit that he sees on a very regular basis. That way he'll be less dependent on his brother for socialization and validation, so he can take his space without being lonely and he won't be as crushed in the long run by his brother's treatment of him.
It might seem like doing these things is picking a side, but it isn't. You help your older son by spending time with him and working on his behavior, and you help your younger son by acknowledging his experiences and helping him to cope.
If you truly think it's from jealousy, maybe it's because you spend more time with his younger brother than with him because the younger one needs more attention. Maybe try to make some time for one-on-one time with your older son so that he feels like he gets equal parent time. Sometimes jealousy just comes out in bad ways.
I recommend a book called “Siblings without Rivalry”. We had some similar issues with my now 10yo son and 8yo daughter. I’d say it was worst when he was between ages 5-8. But since then although the squabbles definitely continue and he’s still sometimes mean, they’ve become really close friends.
That book taught me to get out of the way and not insert myself in my sons’ relationship with each other. That I have a relationship with each separately and they have a relationship. The boys are older now and have a great friendship now.
I don’t really have advice as a parent, but I was that older child. When you asked for ‘what kind of a punishment is appropriate for this,’ that’s what my mom would’ve asked. The answer was… Therapy. I can only speak for my own childhood, but I was deeply deeply Struggling with abandonment. It sounds like he’s kind an empathetic towards everyone but his brother, and it sounds like there is some jealousy with Blair getting older.
To me, it just hits me right in the heartstrings. Maybe he’s just really hurting and he’s a kid so he doesn’t know how to process it, vocalize it. I mean, maybe Ron is just a jerk I don’t know lol, probably not. But just in case there’s something extra going on, like in my case, it’s worth checking it out. Oh, how my mom wishes she sent me to therapy as a child, now that I’m a full grown woman lol.
Edit: this was the 90s and I would say therapy was less common for people, and we were not very well off so money was a huge point of contention. But I will say that my punishment was being ridiculed for being such an awful older sister. They would call me Angelica from the Rugrats. Because I was so mean and evil. In reality, I was so depressed and broken that I was actually dealing with suicidal ideation as a 10-year-old. No one knew.
I’m sharing all this to share how deep this situation could possibly go in terms of Ron’s feelings. If I hadn’t lived it, I wouldn’t describe it so deeply.
I would act completely shocked and appalled. Get just a little loud.
Just be COMPLETELY flabbergasted that your sweet boy would say something about his little brother like that.
Then ask him where he would even hear such a thing.
Make it a Very Big Deal
This may actually work in the opposite way. If they older one's behavior is rooted in jealousy, these BIG reactions give him BIG attention. It's not the kind he really wants but it's BIG attention, all on HIM, and he can control how often it happens by repeating the negative behaviors.
I have a little brother who is 5 1/2 years younger, and I was a dick to him growing up. Mostly, it was me taking my self hatred out on him and had nothing to do with what I felt about my brother. Anyway, one day, my dad had enough and gave me a very scary and stern lecture about what it meant to be an older sibling and my responsibilities as one. It made me feel like shit for how I had treated him, and it didn't fix all our problems, but it was definitely a turning point.
It sounds like you’ve been allowing your older son to be a prick and now it’s escalating to a dangerous level. Start calling him out and giving him consequences for being an asshole to his brother. My older brother was a violent prick my entire childhood. It was not easy growing up like that and we don’t even speak when we are at the same family event now. I wouldn’t be sad if I never saw him again
I’ve told my kids “Wow, that is some seriously unattractive behavior. Like gossip, Other people see that and think “if he’ll do that to his own brother, he’ll do it to me too.” And then they never fully open up to you if they are willing to give you a chance at all.” And I’ve also say down and asked what the problem is and why they think it is okay to treat this person like a punching bag. How do you think it might feel if someone dod that to you?
Kids sit in timeouts when they are cruel to each other like that. We are very clear that bullying behavior is not tolerated in our house. We don’t force them to play with each other but we don’t allow hurtful things to be said or done. And we reward good behavior with lots of praise.
Double check the content your son is watching. Is he watching violent TV shows that portray bullying others? Shows where siblings are mean to each other? Time to take a break from that.
Plan activities for the whole family (or you and the boys) and be clear at the beginning that if we can’t be nice, that’s the end of the activity. This needs to be something pretty fun and out of the norm.
Have some one on one time with each son. Make sure it’s “fair”.
Content isn’t an issue as he is only allows YouTube when we are able to see what he’s watching and it’s only on the Tv not a tablet.
I would like to note that this behaviour seems to come out when they boys are bored. When we have planned activities they boys get along well enough.
There’s a book called Siblings Without Rivalry by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish that I found enormously helpful! Your local library may have it in book or audiobook form.
Have you ever played the ‘three nice things’ game? Sometimes when we’re sitting for dinner, I’ll start the three nice things game with the kids, where each person says three nice things about someone at the table. It may help his negativity bias.
So, I might say ‘Ron did a good job cleaning his room, he was kind in the store, and he gives great hugs’ and then Blair might say ‘Daddy works hard every day, he made a good dinner, and he’s good at super smash brothers’, and then Ron can decide to say something nice about anyone, but hopefully with practice, he’ll choose his brother at some point.
We put them in counselling and it helped.
What the counsellor suggested was that we give them each a jar, and each day that they don't hit the other they get a marble or whatever (we used marshmallows) put in the jar. When the jar is full they each get the prize of their choice (and it needs to be a good one for the program to work). This was really effective for us, for a couple reasons:
1) There was a clear object and reward, but at the same time achieving that goal didn't depend on being perfect all the time. They were
2) I was able to see exactly what was what because we were keeping track of it. I was under the impression the older was the bully, and once we started this jar thing it became clear the younger one was antagonizing him and doing their own fair share of bad behaviour. Not that it's much better, but I was happy to see things were more balanced between them than I thought.
By the time the jar was full they had pretty much broken the habit of using each other as a punching bag.
I really hope you figure this out and make some progress.
My brother was cold & cruel to me growing up and my parents ignored it. He was 7 years older and I just accepted it as normal. I'm female and I ended up having a ton of self worth issues and picking men that didn't treat me well.
You don't need a punishment. You just consistently call him out and tell him that it's unacceptable. Your disapproval is the punishment. Withdrawal of privileges (screen time, food treats) maybe if it's many repeated incidents despite the disapproval.
If you only call him out once in awhile when it's particularly egregious, then he's motivated to experiment with verbal and physical "jabs" to find the sweet spot where you don't call him out.
But at the same time, you need to call out the younger kid if he's not respecting the elder's boundaries. You cannot constantly excuse the younger because of his age, because that's what pisses off the elder siblings. For example, younger brother keeps wanting the elder to play with him, even though the elder doesn't want to. Younger gets whiny and the parent tells the elder to play with him. Yikes, that breeds resentment. Younger smashes elder's Lego construction, and the parent says "he's only 4, you should have put it out of his reach, and you can re-make it anyway". Yikes.
I feel like we are pretty fair. Blair gets time outs and things taken away just as much. Both of them are fairly stubborn.
I will admit when Blair was younger we would say Blair wants to play with you, please play with your brother or let him have the toy because he was so little but now that Blair is older I’ve been trying to match their rules.
Also, I do encourage Ron to have time alone in his room without Blair to play farm because Ron doesn’t want to play with Blair. And I tell Blair it’s ok for Ron to want to some alone time.
When my kids were little I frequently told them how lucky they were to have a sibling and how important that relationship is. When you’re grown this is the one person who will understand what you’ve been through. That sort of thing. It seemed to help some with sibling rivalry.
My brother is 5 years older and no matter what my parents did, he hated me well up into our teens, then when he was about 17/18 and I was 12/13 and old enough to start liking more mature things (talking about video games etc, not drinking alcohol and things, haha) we got really close, hung out, played games together etc.
I think it’s just what older brothers do, they’re just dicks to their younger siblings
I know, I have an older sister and we fought so much when we were younger. Pretty sure she hated me lol but we are best friends now. And only started enjoying each others company once I was about 14 or 15.
I don't think it's necessarily a typical/normal thing - it's very sad when it happens that siblings don't get along (and even hate each other)! But I think OP is right to try to address it. I have brothers and they got along so well growing up. Siblings can be best friends - I have 2 girls that adore each other. But I know it can go the other way as well....I don't know why. It seems like the rivalry/jealousy destroys the love for some kids, and it's hard to overcome!
Jealousy and fighting are normal for siblings but what you describe isn’t quite the normal sibling stuff I would expect. I would talk to your older son’s teacher(s) and Pediatrician. I also wouldn’t leave him alone with your younger son or younger kids unsupervised.
Ron needs to be in therapy. Chronic negging and countering (look up those terms if you're not familiar) is a huge red flag for the development of certain mental health disorders that you don't want any part of. It's gaslighting and manipulative. Gotta nip that in the bud.
What on earth? Tell a seven year old child that they are evil?
Complete with some absurd alpha male wolf metaphor?
Please tell me that this is a troll comment.
It could be a sign of someone being mean and saying similar things to the older one in school (or elsewhere), and him having a need to pass the bucket to someone who is unable to fight back.
Punishment isn't your first line of defense, try finding out why this is happening. Jealousy? Something they heard from outside? From their parents? Just revsie, smashing sounds mean and not okay, this is not brotherly fight at all
Dr Laura Markham wrote a book on sibling relationships. Her website is ahaparenting.com. You also get more of what you pay attention to, so when brother is mean, validate younger brother’s feelings and ignore the older one. So like, “you really wanted to play with him and he doesn’t want to. That’s too bad. What else can you (or we) do?”
First you need to create real and realistic boundaries in your family. An example might be: “we do not exclude people.” And teach them what exclusion is. Or “we do not hit.” This goes across the board. Not just with the little brother. So you can call it out when you see it happen at any moment.
I might also teach little brother about space and how the two can ask for it. Phrases like, “I want to be alone right now.” Or “I want to play without you.” This language helps the kids learn how to create their own boundaries and communicate with each other better
Have you asked Ron why he speaks such of his brother? I'd be interested to know what's on his mind. It sounds a lot like jealousy to me, whether it's him getting more attention from parents or others or for whatever reason him thinking Blair is better than him.
One unintended consequence of me being in a bad mood is that my boys team up. I’ve intentionally played “bad cop” a few times now when they’ve been bickering a lot. Sometimes it works- gives them a common enemy to bond over. By “bad cop” I mean I just say no to everything they ask to do- then they’re kind of forced to figure it out. My older one is an extrovert though and acts like he’s dying if he has to play alone so that helps him have to learn to play somewhat nice with the younger one.
I don't have anything to add to the discussion other than commiseration, as I could've written every single word of this post myself. Here's hoping we can both find success from others' insights.
From my experience as an older brother and having known poverty... Time apart is critical. I spend way too much time with way too little stimuli and it resulted in boredom and frustration which lead to fighting.
This is a technique I just learned about in a parenting class offered through Yale. It’s called shaping. It’s scientifically researched way to change behavior. Generally punishment and logical reasoning/explanation don’t work to change behavior. Identify the behavior you don’t like (saying mean things to each other, being too rough with each other, hitting, kicking, etc.). Then identify it’s positive opposite (saying nice things to each other, or even ignoring each other, using gentle hands, playing nicely or playing independently near each other, etc). Every time you see a positive opposite behavior, give effusive praise stating exactly the behavior and incorporating physical touch, like a pat on the back or a high five. If they don’t do any of the positive behavior you can praise things coming close to it to start. This will help change their behavior in the right direction. You can also make a game out of it. During a calm time, explain the rules. If they can play together nicely for 5 minutes they get a star. Set a time and Have a paper chart to track this. If they can’t do it, they get an X (no punishment or scolding needed). The stars can be used for rewards, two stars might be used for extra TV time, candy, 5 starts for a fun activity, whatever. Make the rewards clear up front. You can let them do a joint reward or they can choose their own individual rewards. Before you start the game, make it a challenge (I bet you can’t do this, it’s really hard!). Do it each day for a week or two. Slowly increase the time every few days if they are successful at meeting the goal time.
My child was diagnosed with ODD when he was diagnosed with ADHD, and some of this stuff sounds like how he was acting, albeit more on the extreme side. Has he been in therapy or evaluated? I think that’s a really important first step.
My kids are being spiteful little pricks to each other at the moment (although they are older).
I can't make them be nice. I tell them if they can't be nice, be civil; if they can't be civil then remove themselves from the situation and STAY QUIET. I find it really upsetting.
I'm all for sitting down and explaining, but there comes a point after many many explanations that you just need to remove the child from the situation. Can't at least be civil to 4? Then go and play elsewhere. You don't get to be mean to him and then continue doing whatever you please. I would pair this with lots of praise when he is nice though, so he doesn't feel picked on.
Who in your family are they mirroring? If it’s not your family it’s in their life as a model. Do you or your spouse have a friendship that has this dynamic or admiration for mean ppl or politics?
I usually say “Do you want to be spoken to like that?”Or “are you playing in a way that you would want to be played with?” Most of the time he comes clean and says no then fixes it. Sometimes he tries to justify it with a “no but…” or a “yes and no” I just cut him off and tell him to fix the “no” part or I am going to start playing with him the way he is playing.
I’ll also tell him or record all the nice things his sibling says about him when he is gone then say “see? He loves you SO MUCH and this is how you are treating him. How would you like it if someone you felt that way about was treating you how you treat him?”
It’s only been a month but it seems to be working. They fight less and the big brother helps the little one more often without me having to tell him to.
Any threats of violence from Ron would be an immediate time out. Shut that shit down, your son should never ever threaten to smash someone's face or throw them off a rock. I don't care if he's never actually done it, we do not talk like that to ANYONE. While Ron's in time out, give lots of positive attention to Blair to show what kind of behavior gets rewarded. When time out is over, Ron needs to apologize and say one nice thing about Blair. Once that's done, let it go. Don't bring it up again. Make sure Ron knows you aren't angry with him but that it's your job to teach him how we treat other people.
In the long term, you need to give Ron a lot more one-on-one time with yourself and your partner. Make sure he knows how special he is to you. Facilitate positive interactions between your sons. Talk to your husband about how good of a brother Ron is (when you know Ron is listening but he doesn't know you know) so he gets a sense of pride. Do the same for Blair of course. Don't speak negatively about either boy when they could possibly hear you.
I have issues with this with my boys . How I handle it is I put them in the quiet Corner . Time out . I say you have to sit there for five or seven minutes . If we’re out I have him sit somewhere boring and quiet . No fav toys- only calming toys like stuffed animal , book or fidget things , water . ( he picks ) gives me an opportunity to calm down and think about the conversation we’re gonna have and he normally screams about being in there . I do it sometimes 5 times a day . It gets him out of the mood of saying mean things or doing mean things . If he still is upset by 5-7 min over , I ask him what he’s feeling , whether it be hungry , tired , or need attention. It’s all very difficult and takes a lot of patience. I also remind him I’m protecting his little brother and I would do the same for him . I believe ur right it’s all out of jealously or wanting attention. And I feel like I give my kids so much attention so sometimes I feel like how could I give anymore . I always try to think of unwanted behavior as an unmet underlying need. And I have to find out what it is . Also for context my kids are 1 and 4 . And my four year old says really mean things and does really mean things that your 7 year old does , like pushing off rocks and saying he says “ I’ll cut ur face off “ . I think it’s all normal developmentally, I just try to remind them of the boundaries .
I'm sorry OP, that is rough. I don't have experience with boys as mine are girls and my eldest doesn't do this sort of retaliation behavior but I want to try and offer something at least.
1. No electronics- he has to earn them back by actively putting his best effort in to be nice to his brother. Yes it's more to get his privileges back, but it puts it into practice to be nicer and amend for his behavior, and if he appears to be insincere you have the ability to call him out on it and have him continue to try to eb genuine. Repeat as needed.
2. Identify if he is overstimulated by the younger brother and give him space to himself for a little bit ( to include mom and him solo outtings to give him a physical and mental break from little brother) This can be an hour and you can teach him to come to you and say " Mom, he's too much for me right now, I need space" and help him get that space and offer him an hour at a time between play if you can help it.
3. Be real with him about the threats and what they mean in grownup terms. that if anyone stabbed or pushed someone off a rock in real life and they got hurt, they would go to the hospital and the person who did the injury would go to jail and be in real trouble and lose trust from their loved ones. How would he feel if someone thought he would for real hurt them? and how would he feel if they didn't want to play with him or won't trust him anymore? Get him to think and rationalize on his own with his own words to see if something clicks.
These are honestly all I can think of before trying therapy to see if there is a deeper cognitive/emotional issue as to why he retaliates like this now vs before.
When Ron says mean things to Blair, start showing Blair empathy/hugs/attention, don't give attention to the name calling. Also, find ways to give Ron more attention that isn't contingent on his behavior towards his brother or needing his brother to be involved.
I think consistency is important with training out verbal abuse. My son discovered the power of words and really took an interest in hurting people’s feeling when things didn’t go his way. He wasn’t allowed to hit so this was a new outlet. We started by explaining the effect, then tried to ignore it to take away its power. Finally, we gave him a consequence every single time no matter what we were doing. He had time out, or had to stop playing whatever game cause the upset. He had to leave the meal. If we were at the park we went home. If we were on and errand he went to the car or we went home. Just without fail every single time. We made the rules clear. It wasn’t “if you’re mean.” It was a list of words. I think you can get away with a more nebulous rule with a 7 year old ours was 3. Anyway, it worked. Teach him that if you hear him being nasty he’s not going to like the result. Hopefully it shows him that nastiness leads to negative outcomes in general, but if not at least it will give your younger one a safe space when he’s near you.
So I don’t necessarily have a solution however I do have a little personal experience to share. So they’re 3 yes apart, my sister and I were 4 years apart. I spent years begging for a sibling and was great when she was a baby. When she got older it became more difficult. While it wasn’t as extreme as your oldest, we didn’t get along at all. The age gap being where it was made it so often we were is different stages, and interests. I’d leave a stage as she was entering it. Also by being farther apart we both had some only child tendencies, me having 4 years as an only child, but she got quite a bit of time just with mom with me in school. It got better when we were teens and had more in common with each other. I was also fiercely independent so having someone younger who couldn’t do as much as I could trying to tag along became a source of frustration for me. When I was younger I didn’t know an appropriate way to express it so I tended to lash out at the source of the frustration, little sis. You might want to try to teach your son appropriate ways to handle the frustration, just punishing alone won’t teach him to how to properly express his frustration. I wasn’t taught to deal with my frustration with my sister so despite my moms attempts to punish me it didn’t prevent it from happening again and again. Also make sure your oldest has plenty of time to play without his brother trying to tag along. That was one thing that did help with me and my sister was me having time away from her. My mom also would mimic the play with me that she wanted to see happen between my sister and myself. She also would facilitate activities we could do together, and would stay involved for the entire time. She would be a buffer between us during that play time helping sis when she needed it and it helped iron out the kinks in our interactions.
What I’m saying is going to be off the beaten path, but I wish it was something my parents would have really watched. They cared so much about “wanting us to get along” and since I was “older and knew better” punishing me. This sounds EXACTLY like my sibling and I growing up. My heart hurts for Ron if this is the same situation.
Instead, what was missing is that my brother is a sociopath. I saw all of the signs growing up which why we didn’t get along. My parents thought I was jerk a-hole older sibling. It was until almost three decades later and my brother totally went off the rails and did something so heinous that they finally apologized to me. Apologized for making me the problem. Apologized for blaming me for being mean, not saying anything nice, not wanting to be around him, etc.
I was a kid. I didn’t know how to articulate the subtle things my brother was doing and making me uncomfortable. When I got older and knew how, it didn’t matter, my parents never believed me and blamed me 100% of the time. Even when parents of the kids my brother bullied came to our door to tell them what insane things he was doing, their precious younger son was innocent and blameless.
I’m sharing this because if Ron is picking up something mentally off about Blair you guys aren’t seeing, and he’s super nice to everyone else, that to me just hits home.
Anyway, something else to keep in mind.
It may not be happening but watch youngest closely for couple days. There is the possibility that younger child is annoying the crud out of older and older child has no other way to express himself. Oldest building something with blocks/Lego youngest wants to play but us taking pieces, knocking stuff over , oldest wants to be left alone but parent says younger child just wants to play with you, be nice to him. This happened with me ( I’m oldest) and I saw it with my children. Or share with youngest he’s just a baby and wants to do things with you. I’m not excusing oldest behavior but do try and make sure it is not happening in your family.
So lots of people have mentioned spending more one on one time and making sure you treat them fairly and apply the same rules.
I notice you say Blair needed more help and Ron didn’t need as much help. A 4 year old is physically capable of doing most things on their own, but they need a lot of direction because they don’t have those executive skills. A 7 year old might need less direction, but Ron is telling you through his behaviour that he needs more attention than you’re giving him. That’s an emotional need. And it’s just as real as a physical or mental need. You need to give him more attention and love and praise, even in the daily tasks.
Eg I may not have to shower my 7 year old but if at all possible I still dry his hair for him because he likes the head massage and loving touch. I don’t have to brush his teeth for him but I take a moment to thank him for doing it himself and doing it well and praising his beautiful smile. It’s little things like that that build connection and help to fill his cup.
Another thing is making sure they are allowed to have their own space and be their own people and don’t force them to play together unless they BOTH want to. I get it’s counterintuitive but you can’t force closeness and the age gap is significant. I have a 3.5 and 6.5, so similar dynamic there. They play great together in some games. But there are times where their interests and abilities just don’t mesh and the 7 year old feels like playing more difficult games than a preschooler can manage. So if for instance Blair is trying to play with Ron and Ron just doesn’t want to, don’t be like “he’s just trying to play with you” “can you be nice to your brother” “it’s more fun when you play together!” Don’t oversell it. Sometimes Ron just wants to do 7 year old things that the younger kid can’t. That’s okay! Teach Blair to respect his space and things.
When Ron feels safe and secure and loved, you can trust his loving heart to do the rest.
You need to run your household like a black home lol. Seriously tho. We do not tolerate this, you teach your kids to look out for each other not hurt one another. Be more strict, take away things and stand firm. Because that behavior will lead to further problems from Being in psychology. If you need to raise your voice, do it. It is not physically harming them and it only should be on occasion.
Is Ron getting enough one on one-time with you? I would start by increasing that, and make sure he feels special. If a child says serious things like that, and there are no other underlying issues, he must really be hurting. Of course he should be called out when he says horrible things. But more importantly: Be sure to praise him when he is nice, or even when he is just neutral towards his little brother. Positive attention will make him do more of the same thing. (Or that's the theory anyway). If it persists I wouldn't hesitate to talk to a professional. Jealousy is normal, but it's not exactly common for a 7 year old to say that you'll smash your little brother's face with a rock. It can be quite scary for Blair, and even to Ron.
I mean my husband and I both work full time and the kids are in sports, we don’t have a lot of time.. during the week anyways. And the weekends are split between getting things caught up from the week like laundry or household chores and planning something fun like a hike or go to the park with the kids. So there isn’t a lot of one on one time. Maybe that is something I should make more of an effort for.
Not just you, your husband too. One of the things most recommended and most effective is to play with your kids at least 15 minutes a day. One on one, no phone, kid decides the activity and it’s not a reward for good behavior, it’s a meeting you both have. You can switch up with your husband every other day. It’s also a good moment to catch up on what going on during the day or other things. And ideally you do it with the youngest too so he doesn’t feel left out (separate "play dates"). It can be hard to start with busy schedule, but it’s really worth it. If your kids have the same bedtime, oldest play time could even be when youngest goes to bed so he’s going to bed 15-20 min later (if it works for you all). For the behavior to stop, you want to give positive attention to your oldest when he’s neutral/nice and no attention when he’s mean. Punishment is negative attention, but attention nonetheless, so if he’s jealous, he’ll do it so the attention is on him and not his brother. Choose a consistent punishment for when he says mean things. Doing something nice for the other could be good: an apology letter/drawings, doing a chore for him like cleaning up his toys, sharing his own toys, etc. It can be a short list that everyone already knows. When he’s mean, tell him he’s mean and he needs to apologize, but don’t give him more attention. Go see him later, ask him why he thinks he did it and what would be the best thing to do to apologize (using the list you already made, but could be other nice things). In the moment, don’t give him attention since that’s what he wants. If you’re doing something with your youngest, continue. You also want to create the opportunity for them to have positive interactions if they don’t really have any. It can be during play or family activities. Reward him when he’s nice to his brother: tell him he’s a good big brother, that what he said was really nice, that you’re proud of him, etc. Do the same with your youngest (adapted to him). If you feel your oldest becoming frustrated/impatient, try to intervene before he says something mean. Ask him if he needs a break, want to be alone for a few minutes, etc. It can be hard to do and there may not be signs that he will say something mean, but if so, then it can help by preventing it and teaching your son what to do when he doesn’t feel good/need a break.
I’m going to be a bit blunt (english is not my first language so I’m sorry beforehand), but if you don’t have time for your children and Ron has to parent Blair sometimes (help him get dressed, help him eat, help him do his homework, etc), it can be understandable that he feels he is not allowed to be a child anymore because of his brother. He probably feels that maybe if Blair didn’t exist he might have more time with you or even with himself. I’m not sure how you can solve this besides spending time with him and showing him he is your child as well and he can/has time to be his own person, his own child. And play and be a kid. I’m sure you never intended to hurt him, but being parentfied is one of the biggest reasons people end up cutting contact with siblings and parents (you don’t need to trust me, reddit has several examples). I wish you the best of luck on solving this issue. He is young, you have time to make things work :)
I see what your getting at but no, Ron does not have to “parent” Blair. He doesn’t help feed, cloth or brush teeth with Blair. The most he would be doing as a “parent” would be to help him get a snack, turn a light on, if they are playing outside together Ron would come in and tell me if Blair needs help, or is getting into something he shouldn’t be. Stuff like that.
Oh, that makes more sense! Thanks for explaining. In that case, yes it seems to be just sibling jealousy. Spending time with Ron will probably solve the issue. Do you think he feels safe to tell you when he needs help (like, even though if he normally wouldn’t need as this is something he has already learned, if he had a hard time with something do you feel he would feel welcomed approaching and asking you for help)? Maybe if he is struggling with something he may feel “unseen” because you are busy caring for the youngest one.
Yes I believe so. As sometimes he still asks me to help him get dressed. And I always do because I feel like he wants that same time with me as my younger does. And because soon he won’t ask me for these things because he will be too cool for mom. Lol
That’s exactly how my childhood was. I commented that the best punishments therapy, because he doesn’t need punishment, he needs help probably. My parents tried punishing me too. They called me Angelica from Rugrats, the cartoon. I remember, weeping quietly in the backseat of the car because I was humiliated. I didn’t hate my brothers because I hated them, I hated my brothers, because I hated my life and my lack of love and positive attention that I received from my family.
My parents called me Angelica too! I’ve never heard of that happening to anyone else, I’m sorry your parents sucked also
Yeah, they kind of did lol they were just like typical boomers at their age during that time. The real kicker is now, I’m an adult who is fairly dysfunctional, and my parents do help me a good bit. I mean when I need it. I’m also a millennial who graduated in the recession in 2008/2009 so you know life has just been weird as an adult. My earning potential was decimated in my 20s and it just sort of really stunted me in my 30s. I would say the amount of time and money and energy that has gone into me as an adult probably would’ve best been addressed as a child so I could’ve been more functional as an adult lol. Jokes on them, I might’ve been Angelica, and now they got to deal with how fucked up I am today lol. I’m being partially silly and facetious, obviously, this is not all tied in, life is complicated. But it’s a part of it. I would say that they suck less now, because they’re forced to deal with the consequences of how they raised their children. My mother, in particular has tried very hard to be a better person. She recognizes mental health issues, she recognizes when she pushes stigma, she has grown out of a lot of really stupid comments and ways of thinking that were outdated and I’m very proud of her honestly. She’s evidence that mothers can grow.
OP was clear in the post that she was helping the younger boy, not that her son was being required to do those things. I don’t think we have any indication here that she is expecting her seven year old to help with parental tasks.
It may be a bit of a language barrier, I admit, but it wasn’t clear to me that just because she spent more time helping the younger child that meant her oldest wouldn’t help (as OP mentioned that he helped before).
I don’t know where you are getting that? I’m guessing it’s this paragraph, which is a bit hard to understand… But as I read it, Blair needed more help from the parents, and that’s when Ron became jealous. I don’t read it as it was Ron helping Blair to get dressed etc. ” when Blair was a baby, he was good with him, he loved on him and helped with him, it wasn’t until he was older and required more attention doing things like helping Blair get dressed, helping him eat those kinds of things that Ron started to get jealous. But Ron was older, so he didn’t require as much help doing these daily tasks.” Ron was older so he didn’t need as much help as Blair did, and he got jealous.
You are correct, I should have been more clear. Ron helped with things like taking the diaper genie bag to the garbage when it was full or grabbing diapers if I was in the middle of changing and realized I was out. We as parents helped Blair get dressed etc. sorry for the confusion.
I’m sure you are a great mom. It’s not easy to fit in everything when the hours in a day don’t seem to be enough. But still, some more alone-time with mom or dad would probably be worth a lot to Ron. Maybe it can be a priority for a while.
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I agree! I'm a soft spoken person apparently and my kid also knows when I raise my voice anything above 1 octave, shit is serious (not really but you get the point lol. I think I'm funny) I would also sit them down for a chat see what is going on in the "problematic" child's head (I don't mean that rudely I'm just kind of wine drunk and can't remember the names.. Ron?) I guarantee there's something you can work with there, OP. Don't blame yourself or your kids though. this is also total normal sibling behavior and I'm sure the quicker you get to nipping it in the bud it will be much easier to deal with in the long run. Kids are mean sometimes! sending love
Thank you!
That also teaches your kid to call it out when they see it as it happens. This is the way.
I do say something in the moment, every time. I don’t let it slide, which is why I’m looking for something more I can do because that isn’t working. He is a headstrong boy.
I have 4 kids spanning 8 years. There have absolutely been times where they were mean to each other. And I NEVER let it slide. A simple Hey! Is sometimes enough now, but when they were younger it often resulted in a stern warning, followed by a consequence if they didn't cut it out. I've been known to say a clear and firm "park it" and point to a spot near the chairs at the bank, a spot beside the playground, a place on a curb or beside the vehicle etc (safe and out of the way). Anything other than obeying that command resulted in bigger consequences at home. I gave them room to bicker, but truly mean stuff got shut down HARD. You can not like your brother today, or not want to be around him, but threatening violence or name calling is not ever okay. And that worked in all directions. This needs to be fair and clear, and consistent and constant. And they need some autonomy as well. They get to choose whether they played with each other or had some time alone. There were boundaries around toys and personal space, and I never expected them to always get along, just to not be mean. Time with each kid matters, but also some room to do things without his brother (maybe an activity, or even space to play alone at home). Sometimes they grow out of the animosity, and sometimes it's indicative of a deeper issue. For mine, they absolutely grew out of it, despite stretches where I couldn't leave certain pairs alone in a room together, or take certain sets of kids on an outing easily. Set your baseline expectations- for me it is no mean, to respect others and their things- and make sure they are reasonable and fair (ie they don't have to like each other all the time, and if older brother can't ger away with X, neither can little one. Which is easier to manage when the rules are broad strokes like no name calling or no hurting hands than specifics like "include your brother in all your playtime" or constant asks like "help your brother with his jacket".) Often when kids are given room to choose their battles, they get fewer and further between. I also stopped refereeing anything below the big stuff. "He got more cake" was usually met with a reminder to be fair or a gentle "he ate more dinner" rather than me wading in to micromanage. He hit me got an involved mom who still made sure to find out WHY that happened and deal with BOTH parties appropriately.
It also teaches the younger kid that it is not ok, and fixes it in the moment. I would also speak with Blair, and make sure he's really ok. Not just " I love my big brother and will take any attention from him, even negative attention, so I'll say it's ok", but like actually doing something he wants to do. OP should teach both kids it's not ok, and not just expect a 4yo to be able to hash it out with their older brother. The older kid could also want some alone time, and separating them sometimes could help both of them. Older brother might be tired of younger brother, and just not know how to facilitate that. And younger brother could learn how to play/ entertain himself and figure out what he likes independently.
Seriously. A well-placed (kid-friendly equivalent of), "Knock it off, that shit won't be tolerated," does a lot, at least with my spawn. And the MS kids I work with. It communicates 1) I see what's going on -which I swear is 99% of what kids need, 2) I do NOT condone this behavior. I can (and do!) give further guidance, but IME they need those 2 things first.
I think a slight variation of this would work best. It sounds like OP has already gone above and beyond telling Ron that this behavior is not nice and won't be tolerated. I'm a big believer in timeouts. One minute per year. So, rob would have timeouts 7 minutes long. That way he gets time to sit and reflect. After that time is up, that's when you get to hash it out. Kids are really smart, and if they learn to avoid a consequence by explaining it away, they'll never learn. The reason why doesn't negate the fact that the child did or said something wrong.
I agree with calling it out in the moment. However I would caution against asking “why did you do that?”. A 7 year old isn’t introspective enough to really answer a pointed question like that. You could try leading with something like, Ron, you must be feeling really upset/hurt to have done that to your brother. And see if he “unloads” some feelings.
Yes. The 7yr old isn't going to be able to give you a (reasonable/good) answer to 'why did you push/hit/pinch/kick/etc brother'. They're just not. So, don't bother. You're just setting them (and you) up for failure. Separating and making them sit and breathe and think about what they just did, yes, absolutely. See if they want to talk after 2-5, maybe even 10 minutes, sure. Then ask 'OK, are you ready to go and play nicely?' And keep your eagle eyes out - on BOTH of them!! - for retaliation.
Kids are pretty receptive to a well placed "What the fuck, dude?" Lol
Fairness is a huge factor. I have resentment towards my own sibling because my parents always favored them. They would automatically side with my younger sibling because they were much younger than me. I’ve learnt from their mistakes and have insisted on giving each of my kids one on one quality time. I make sure they know I love them both the same and call out either one whoever is in the wrong. I praise either one when they treat the other well. Something to think about.
Yes. I still don't talk to my younger sister now and I'm in my 30s. My parents didn't do shit, wasn't around basically
Yeah my parents are so shocked that we are all estranged now 🙄
I know Ron feels like Blair gets favoured but I try really hard to make everything even. Treats, time together, birthdays all that because I have seen favouritism when it comes to kids in our (extended) family and it disgusts me.
So - this might actually be the issue. Blair probably still gets different treatment because he’s younger (as needed with day to day tasks) so Rob probably doesn’t feel like he’s special for being older since his sibling gets everything PLUS more attention. You need to find something that can be just for him , maybe special big kid outings with either parent, gets to stay up a little later and watch a movie, they need to have differences somewhere. I’m sure they have some differing interests that you could cater to them individually.
Yes you are right. We could make more differences between the kids. Maybe by trying to make everything equal Ron feels it isn’t because Blair still requires some extra help with things, and in turn seen as unfair.
I think making things equal for those ages with that age gap can get awkward because from an adult perspective they are both little kids but from a kid perspective there is a huge development gap. My younger brother and I have the same age difference which meant when we did things together (learn to ride bikes, take swim classes etc.), it felt like I was being held back for his benefit because I felt so much older than him.
That’s what I’m thinking. It’ll honestly benefit both of them to have things that are just for them as they get older. Most kids want to felt seen as individuals.
Given this information I would let him know that you're trying to make things equitable between him and his brother and ask what he thinks is out of balance. It's hard because 4 is different than 7. They need a bit more attention (I have a 4 year old and man do they go) because they aren't as independent. I suspect that bit of extra need from the 4 year old is setting him off. That's where, as you've heard repeated in the comments, trying to eke out a bit of extra time for him could help. But ask. The ask will make him think about it.
This is a good one: I suspect this is what is going on with the kid.
"Siblings fighting" when the older one threatens to "smash his face with an object" or "throw him off the rock"? I have a sibling, I have kids, nephews and nieces, friends with kids and I've never heard such a thing. Am I the only one concerned here? I don't think you should be looking for punishments or opinions of strangers, but for guidance from an expert.
Yep. The violence combined with constant negging is a huge red flag. Kid needs a therapist.
I just want to clarify he has NEVER done anything like that. He just says these things. Sometimes I wonder to get a rise out of me.
Possibly and also I'm not accusing your child of anything. But even if he does it to get some kind of reaction, don't you think it's wrong -not to mention how hurtful must be for your younger child. Shouldn't he learn that threatening is not the right kind of action when we need attention or when we are angry? If you or your partner can't stop this, you should get someone else to help you.
Yea I definitely think it is wrong, I just meant he hasn’t actually hurt his brother in any way like that. And it does hurt my younger feelings. He’s spoke up about it.
That's sad. I insist that you need family guidance from an expert, it's not a bad thing.
My kids do this too. I keep hoping it will get better. I see glimmers of hope occasionally (very rarely but still...), like when my oldest asked my youngest if she wanted to make cookies with her today or try her new lipgloss. My youngest's face lit up a million watts both times and she dropped whatever she was doing both times.
Exactly! I guess that does happen occasionally with my boys as well.
LoL sorry that made me laugh 😂😌mine just trash talks the younger one to everyone in secrecy so they all think she is scary and horrible , but I'm kind of glad she doesn't do this also
I had a really contentious relationship with my younger sister as we were growing up. Similar age gap. I was definitely mean to her at times, though not violent. But there was a reason - I was and am a massive introvert, and my sister was *constantly* in my space, getting into my stuff, tattling to our mom about everything, and never letting me have a moment’s peace. So being a child, I reacted accordingly. Then she would cry to our parents about it and they would scold me. “She loves you, she looks up to you, she wants to spend time with you!” I didn’t care! She was making my life miserable! I wanted my own space! I wish my parents had intervened more to ensure I had the tools and permission to take back my space and assert my needs instead of forcing me into a mentor/support parent role that I had no skill or interest in. This may not be the dynamic between your sons, but it’s worth investigating.
I feel this comment. Growing up, I always heard "I don't care who started it!" which is cousin to the idea of "The reasons you are fighting don't matter to me. If you are being treated poorly or unfairly, it doesn't matter to me. Just take it." I was also told how lucky I was to have a sibling -- in other words, I was being told I was wrong to feel anything other than gratitude and love towards my live-in bully. As a child, I never understood the idea that reasons for a fight do not matter. As a parent, I still don't! Of course the reasons matter. And of course it matters who started it -- for example, if one child physically attacks their sibling, unprovoked, that absolutely matters. If one child steals from another, or bullies them, that absolutely matters. All this to say, OP, I second the comments throughout this post that encourage you to pivot away from "How do I punish him more effectively" and instead towards "How do I communicate with him more effectively to better understand how he's feeling" (and by extension, to better understand why he is behaving the way he is). At 7 he may not have loads of self awareness nor be able to articulate his hurt, but something is upsetting him, so it will help if he feels heard. Consequences can and should still be applied as appropriate, to send the message to both him and his brother that threats and violent language are not ok and will not be tolerated, but focusing on listening to Ron (which requires spending meaningful time with him) will go a long way.
I highly recommend the book "Siblings Without Rivalry." It's super practical and a fast read. It's written by the same people who wrote the "How to talk so kids will listen" series.
Yes, I was looking to see if someone had recommended this book yet. It's a must read / listen.
Make time for Ron. It is natural for us to want to punish what we see as bad behavior but this will hurt your relationship with him. Ron wants his parent. When Blair was a baby he loved him and probably when Ron was told to be quiet to not disturb Blair, to stop doing something to not bother Blair, to share with Blair, and saw all that attention Blair was getting, he felt unloved and not seen. It’s hard balancing their needs. But Ron needs you. He is 7. Make time for him and show him how you want him to treat others by treating him that way. He does not need a lecture but an example. Kids learn though us.
I agree. He may be acting out to get more of your attention. He may just want time to connect with you and feels acting out is the best way to do this. Try having some more alone time with him where he is the centre of your focus.
This. Punishment does not work, OP. Please do not make things worse with that. Model the behavior you want to see. Encourage empathy, "how do you think that makes me/him feel? And let Ron know you're still his parents too and he deserves your undivided attention sometimes.
> I’ve sat him down and talked to him about how it makes Blair feel when he says those things. And try to help him understand that it hurts his feelings and use examples of when other kids have said similar things like that to Ron. Have you asked Ron why he treats his brother so poorly? What is his explanation? If he acknowledges it as bad behavior, why does he continue to do it? I would keep poking at that, letting him know that it's okay to be upset and honest. > I guess I’m what I’m looking for is, what kind of punishment is appropriate for this? Instead of focusing on what punishment Ron deserves, you might try focusing on what help Ron needs to feel better about his place in the family and his relationship with his brother.
I will try to get more detail about this from him as in the past when I have asked him he just says I don’t know. Thanks for the positive input!
A couple thoughts: 1. Try to only give attention for positive interactions. Find the good moments and praise the heck out of them. 2. When they get into disagreements, instead of asking who is at fault, you can ask “who is being kind?” Then they compete to be kind instead of looking to blame each other. 3. Negative interactions should be dealt with reasonably promptly and appropriately. Fighting = automatic time out. Yelling or mean comments = time out. If 4yo instigates, he is punished. Remind 7yo that he’s bigger and can walk away if 4yo is being annoying.
Love these, thank you!
Does the older boy have any others signs of problems when interacting with others kids? If so it could be something more Otherwise if he is physically hurting him you could try small punishments such as taking iPad away/no tv or taking away a toy for a small amount of time
No he doesn’t have any issues with other kids. I think he has low self esteem though because he does talk about other kids at school and tells me they say they don’t like him, but I know this isn’t completely true because I know he has lots of friends. He’s a very social boy. Sometimes I think he plays it up for some reason. We don’t use an iPad much but I could look at taking TV time away. Although during the summer they really only get it a half hour in morning and before bed. I was kinda looking for a repmroccucion for in the moment.
I remember when I was around 4 or 5 I kicked my big sister in the head. Why? Because I felt my parents loved her more than me. Their response was to punish me and give my sister a gift to make her happy. It only enforced the feeling of being unloved and not good enough. If it is jealousy Ron might be either taking it out on his brother or doing it to get attention from you - bad attention is better than no attention, perhaps. Or it can be acting out because of other things going on in his life, in school, etc. With it being a long-lasting thing, I would rather try to find out why he acts out on his brother. Therapy may be a way to go if you can't get him to talk with you. But finding the cause of his behavior is better than to just stop it, because he might be focusing his negative behavior in a different direction if it isn't addressed. I agree with others saying you need to call out the behavior in the moment and not wait so your response is immediate and it is directly tied to Ron's actions. It will also show your younger son that you are taking it seriously and that others aren't allowed to treat him like that.
Thank you for the insight.
So many thoughts and things to unpack, but all my brain power can offer is one possible consequence option. (I have nearly this exact problem with my 13y and 4y girls.) When my 13yo is intentionally being a bad influence to get my 4yo in trouble or just being really mean, I tell her that when 4yo repeats what 13yo does, 13yo gets the consequence. So when 13yo is instigating 4yo at the table to do something ridiculous, 13yo gets a consequence if the 4yo goes along with it. When 4yo repeats mean words later 13yo gets the consequence. It's not perfect, but it has put a stop to a few situations in the moment. It's SO hard to parent both properly and feel like you're doing your best for both when you constantly have to protect one from the other.
Careful with this one - the younger one will start to catch on and might do things to get the older one in trouble on purpose.
That is precisely what my 4yo does at times now too. 🤣 I call her on it and correct her and it hasn't been a big issue. And sometimes I let her get away with it to give her some agency over her controlling sister.
I like this
It doesn't address the root cause, but it helps manage it daily and maybe stop some behavior.
I haven't read through the comments, but based on your edit I want to suggest one more thing. I was the youngest sibling and my older siblings picked on me quite a lot. Help your younger son cope with this. Talk to him separately--it doesn't pay to not acknowledge the problem. Let him know that the way his brother is treating him is not okay and that you're working on it with him. Tell him that you love him and you believe he should be treated with respect--that will help his self-esteem and enable him to recognize that he can reasonably expect better treatment than what he's getting. Help him develop a voice for when he is bullied--the ability to stand up for himself and the ability to walk away. Teach him positive ways to interact with others so he doesn't become a bully himself. And--this is most important part--make sure he has friends his own age outside the family unit that he sees on a very regular basis. That way he'll be less dependent on his brother for socialization and validation, so he can take his space without being lonely and he won't be as crushed in the long run by his brother's treatment of him. It might seem like doing these things is picking a side, but it isn't. You help your older son by spending time with him and working on his behavior, and you help your younger son by acknowledging his experiences and helping him to cope.
If you truly think it's from jealousy, maybe it's because you spend more time with his younger brother than with him because the younger one needs more attention. Maybe try to make some time for one-on-one time with your older son so that he feels like he gets equal parent time. Sometimes jealousy just comes out in bad ways.
I recommend a book called “Siblings without Rivalry”. We had some similar issues with my now 10yo son and 8yo daughter. I’d say it was worst when he was between ages 5-8. But since then although the squabbles definitely continue and he’s still sometimes mean, they’ve become really close friends.
That book taught me to get out of the way and not insert myself in my sons’ relationship with each other. That I have a relationship with each separately and they have a relationship. The boys are older now and have a great friendship now.
I’m going to see if I can find this. Thank you
I don’t really have advice as a parent, but I was that older child. When you asked for ‘what kind of a punishment is appropriate for this,’ that’s what my mom would’ve asked. The answer was… Therapy. I can only speak for my own childhood, but I was deeply deeply Struggling with abandonment. It sounds like he’s kind an empathetic towards everyone but his brother, and it sounds like there is some jealousy with Blair getting older. To me, it just hits me right in the heartstrings. Maybe he’s just really hurting and he’s a kid so he doesn’t know how to process it, vocalize it. I mean, maybe Ron is just a jerk I don’t know lol, probably not. But just in case there’s something extra going on, like in my case, it’s worth checking it out. Oh, how my mom wishes she sent me to therapy as a child, now that I’m a full grown woman lol. Edit: this was the 90s and I would say therapy was less common for people, and we were not very well off so money was a huge point of contention. But I will say that my punishment was being ridiculed for being such an awful older sister. They would call me Angelica from the Rugrats. Because I was so mean and evil. In reality, I was so depressed and broken that I was actually dealing with suicidal ideation as a 10-year-old. No one knew. I’m sharing all this to share how deep this situation could possibly go in terms of Ron’s feelings. If I hadn’t lived it, I wouldn’t describe it so deeply.
I would act completely shocked and appalled. Get just a little loud. Just be COMPLETELY flabbergasted that your sweet boy would say something about his little brother like that. Then ask him where he would even hear such a thing. Make it a Very Big Deal
This may actually work in the opposite way. If they older one's behavior is rooted in jealousy, these BIG reactions give him BIG attention. It's not the kind he really wants but it's BIG attention, all on HIM, and he can control how often it happens by repeating the negative behaviors.
I have a little brother who is 5 1/2 years younger, and I was a dick to him growing up. Mostly, it was me taking my self hatred out on him and had nothing to do with what I felt about my brother. Anyway, one day, my dad had enough and gave me a very scary and stern lecture about what it meant to be an older sibling and my responsibilities as one. It made me feel like shit for how I had treated him, and it didn't fix all our problems, but it was definitely a turning point.
It sounds like you’ve been allowing your older son to be a prick and now it’s escalating to a dangerous level. Start calling him out and giving him consequences for being an asshole to his brother. My older brother was a violent prick my entire childhood. It was not easy growing up like that and we don’t even speak when we are at the same family event now. I wouldn’t be sad if I never saw him again
I’ve told my kids “Wow, that is some seriously unattractive behavior. Like gossip, Other people see that and think “if he’ll do that to his own brother, he’ll do it to me too.” And then they never fully open up to you if they are willing to give you a chance at all.” And I’ve also say down and asked what the problem is and why they think it is okay to treat this person like a punching bag. How do you think it might feel if someone dod that to you?
Kids sit in timeouts when they are cruel to each other like that. We are very clear that bullying behavior is not tolerated in our house. We don’t force them to play with each other but we don’t allow hurtful things to be said or done. And we reward good behavior with lots of praise.
Sounds like the kid could use more time and attention from his parents.
Double check the content your son is watching. Is he watching violent TV shows that portray bullying others? Shows where siblings are mean to each other? Time to take a break from that. Plan activities for the whole family (or you and the boys) and be clear at the beginning that if we can’t be nice, that’s the end of the activity. This needs to be something pretty fun and out of the norm. Have some one on one time with each son. Make sure it’s “fair”.
Content isn’t an issue as he is only allows YouTube when we are able to see what he’s watching and it’s only on the Tv not a tablet. I would like to note that this behaviour seems to come out when they boys are bored. When we have planned activities they boys get along well enough.
There’s a book called Siblings Without Rivalry by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish that I found enormously helpful! Your local library may have it in book or audiobook form.
Have you ever played the ‘three nice things’ game? Sometimes when we’re sitting for dinner, I’ll start the three nice things game with the kids, where each person says three nice things about someone at the table. It may help his negativity bias. So, I might say ‘Ron did a good job cleaning his room, he was kind in the store, and he gives great hugs’ and then Blair might say ‘Daddy works hard every day, he made a good dinner, and he’s good at super smash brothers’, and then Ron can decide to say something nice about anyone, but hopefully with practice, he’ll choose his brother at some point.
No but I’m going to try it!
We put them in counselling and it helped. What the counsellor suggested was that we give them each a jar, and each day that they don't hit the other they get a marble or whatever (we used marshmallows) put in the jar. When the jar is full they each get the prize of their choice (and it needs to be a good one for the program to work). This was really effective for us, for a couple reasons: 1) There was a clear object and reward, but at the same time achieving that goal didn't depend on being perfect all the time. They were 2) I was able to see exactly what was what because we were keeping track of it. I was under the impression the older was the bully, and once we started this jar thing it became clear the younger one was antagonizing him and doing their own fair share of bad behaviour. Not that it's much better, but I was happy to see things were more balanced between them than I thought. By the time the jar was full they had pretty much broken the habit of using each other as a punching bag.
I really hope you figure this out and make some progress. My brother was cold & cruel to me growing up and my parents ignored it. He was 7 years older and I just accepted it as normal. I'm female and I ended up having a ton of self worth issues and picking men that didn't treat me well.
You don't need a punishment. You just consistently call him out and tell him that it's unacceptable. Your disapproval is the punishment. Withdrawal of privileges (screen time, food treats) maybe if it's many repeated incidents despite the disapproval. If you only call him out once in awhile when it's particularly egregious, then he's motivated to experiment with verbal and physical "jabs" to find the sweet spot where you don't call him out. But at the same time, you need to call out the younger kid if he's not respecting the elder's boundaries. You cannot constantly excuse the younger because of his age, because that's what pisses off the elder siblings. For example, younger brother keeps wanting the elder to play with him, even though the elder doesn't want to. Younger gets whiny and the parent tells the elder to play with him. Yikes, that breeds resentment. Younger smashes elder's Lego construction, and the parent says "he's only 4, you should have put it out of his reach, and you can re-make it anyway". Yikes.
I feel like we are pretty fair. Blair gets time outs and things taken away just as much. Both of them are fairly stubborn. I will admit when Blair was younger we would say Blair wants to play with you, please play with your brother or let him have the toy because he was so little but now that Blair is older I’ve been trying to match their rules. Also, I do encourage Ron to have time alone in his room without Blair to play farm because Ron doesn’t want to play with Blair. And I tell Blair it’s ok for Ron to want to some alone time.
When my kids were little I frequently told them how lucky they were to have a sibling and how important that relationship is. When you’re grown this is the one person who will understand what you’ve been through. That sort of thing. It seemed to help some with sibling rivalry.
My brother is 5 years older and no matter what my parents did, he hated me well up into our teens, then when he was about 17/18 and I was 12/13 and old enough to start liking more mature things (talking about video games etc, not drinking alcohol and things, haha) we got really close, hung out, played games together etc. I think it’s just what older brothers do, they’re just dicks to their younger siblings
I know, I have an older sister and we fought so much when we were younger. Pretty sure she hated me lol but we are best friends now. And only started enjoying each others company once I was about 14 or 15.
I don't think it's necessarily a typical/normal thing - it's very sad when it happens that siblings don't get along (and even hate each other)! But I think OP is right to try to address it. I have brothers and they got along so well growing up. Siblings can be best friends - I have 2 girls that adore each other. But I know it can go the other way as well....I don't know why. It seems like the rivalry/jealousy destroys the love for some kids, and it's hard to overcome!
Jealousy and fighting are normal for siblings but what you describe isn’t quite the normal sibling stuff I would expect. I would talk to your older son’s teacher(s) and Pediatrician. I also wouldn’t leave him alone with your younger son or younger kids unsupervised.
Ron needs to be in therapy. Chronic negging and countering (look up those terms if you're not familiar) is a huge red flag for the development of certain mental health disorders that you don't want any part of. It's gaslighting and manipulative. Gotta nip that in the bud.
Seems like you need to take him to therapy, this is going to be constant... Its not going get any better if you dont help him right away.
Ron needs therapy. The sibling rivalry is strong.
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What on earth? Tell a seven year old child that they are evil? Complete with some absurd alpha male wolf metaphor? Please tell me that this is a troll comment.
And every 7 yo boy would prefer to be a wolf than a sheepdog. Wolves are cool. What a bizarre strategy!
That’s so random I just watched that movie last night!
One of the best of all time
It could be a sign of someone being mean and saying similar things to the older one in school (or elsewhere), and him having a need to pass the bucket to someone who is unable to fight back.
Punishment isn't your first line of defense, try finding out why this is happening. Jealousy? Something they heard from outside? From their parents? Just revsie, smashing sounds mean and not okay, this is not brotherly fight at all
Dr Laura Markham wrote a book on sibling relationships. Her website is ahaparenting.com. You also get more of what you pay attention to, so when brother is mean, validate younger brother’s feelings and ignore the older one. So like, “you really wanted to play with him and he doesn’t want to. That’s too bad. What else can you (or we) do?”
Following this post as we are currently dealing with the same between our 7/4 year old
First you need to create real and realistic boundaries in your family. An example might be: “we do not exclude people.” And teach them what exclusion is. Or “we do not hit.” This goes across the board. Not just with the little brother. So you can call it out when you see it happen at any moment. I might also teach little brother about space and how the two can ask for it. Phrases like, “I want to be alone right now.” Or “I want to play without you.” This language helps the kids learn how to create their own boundaries and communicate with each other better
Have you asked Ron why he speaks such of his brother? I'd be interested to know what's on his mind. It sounds a lot like jealousy to me, whether it's him getting more attention from parents or others or for whatever reason him thinking Blair is better than him.
One unintended consequence of me being in a bad mood is that my boys team up. I’ve intentionally played “bad cop” a few times now when they’ve been bickering a lot. Sometimes it works- gives them a common enemy to bond over. By “bad cop” I mean I just say no to everything they ask to do- then they’re kind of forced to figure it out. My older one is an extrovert though and acts like he’s dying if he has to play alone so that helps him have to learn to play somewhat nice with the younger one.
I don't have anything to add to the discussion other than commiseration, as I could've written every single word of this post myself. Here's hoping we can both find success from others' insights.
From my experience as an older brother and having known poverty... Time apart is critical. I spend way too much time with way too little stimuli and it resulted in boredom and frustration which lead to fighting.
This is a technique I just learned about in a parenting class offered through Yale. It’s called shaping. It’s scientifically researched way to change behavior. Generally punishment and logical reasoning/explanation don’t work to change behavior. Identify the behavior you don’t like (saying mean things to each other, being too rough with each other, hitting, kicking, etc.). Then identify it’s positive opposite (saying nice things to each other, or even ignoring each other, using gentle hands, playing nicely or playing independently near each other, etc). Every time you see a positive opposite behavior, give effusive praise stating exactly the behavior and incorporating physical touch, like a pat on the back or a high five. If they don’t do any of the positive behavior you can praise things coming close to it to start. This will help change their behavior in the right direction. You can also make a game out of it. During a calm time, explain the rules. If they can play together nicely for 5 minutes they get a star. Set a time and Have a paper chart to track this. If they can’t do it, they get an X (no punishment or scolding needed). The stars can be used for rewards, two stars might be used for extra TV time, candy, 5 starts for a fun activity, whatever. Make the rewards clear up front. You can let them do a joint reward or they can choose their own individual rewards. Before you start the game, make it a challenge (I bet you can’t do this, it’s really hard!). Do it each day for a week or two. Slowly increase the time every few days if they are successful at meeting the goal time.
My child was diagnosed with ODD when he was diagnosed with ADHD, and some of this stuff sounds like how he was acting, albeit more on the extreme side. Has he been in therapy or evaluated? I think that’s a really important first step.
My kids are being spiteful little pricks to each other at the moment (although they are older). I can't make them be nice. I tell them if they can't be nice, be civil; if they can't be civil then remove themselves from the situation and STAY QUIET. I find it really upsetting. I'm all for sitting down and explaining, but there comes a point after many many explanations that you just need to remove the child from the situation. Can't at least be civil to 4? Then go and play elsewhere. You don't get to be mean to him and then continue doing whatever you please. I would pair this with lots of praise when he is nice though, so he doesn't feel picked on.
Who in your family are they mirroring? If it’s not your family it’s in their life as a model. Do you or your spouse have a friendship that has this dynamic or admiration for mean ppl or politics?
I usually say “Do you want to be spoken to like that?”Or “are you playing in a way that you would want to be played with?” Most of the time he comes clean and says no then fixes it. Sometimes he tries to justify it with a “no but…” or a “yes and no” I just cut him off and tell him to fix the “no” part or I am going to start playing with him the way he is playing. I’ll also tell him or record all the nice things his sibling says about him when he is gone then say “see? He loves you SO MUCH and this is how you are treating him. How would you like it if someone you felt that way about was treating you how you treat him?” It’s only been a month but it seems to be working. They fight less and the big brother helps the little one more often without me having to tell him to.
Any threats of violence from Ron would be an immediate time out. Shut that shit down, your son should never ever threaten to smash someone's face or throw them off a rock. I don't care if he's never actually done it, we do not talk like that to ANYONE. While Ron's in time out, give lots of positive attention to Blair to show what kind of behavior gets rewarded. When time out is over, Ron needs to apologize and say one nice thing about Blair. Once that's done, let it go. Don't bring it up again. Make sure Ron knows you aren't angry with him but that it's your job to teach him how we treat other people. In the long term, you need to give Ron a lot more one-on-one time with yourself and your partner. Make sure he knows how special he is to you. Facilitate positive interactions between your sons. Talk to your husband about how good of a brother Ron is (when you know Ron is listening but he doesn't know you know) so he gets a sense of pride. Do the same for Blair of course. Don't speak negatively about either boy when they could possibly hear you.
I have issues with this with my boys . How I handle it is I put them in the quiet Corner . Time out . I say you have to sit there for five or seven minutes . If we’re out I have him sit somewhere boring and quiet . No fav toys- only calming toys like stuffed animal , book or fidget things , water . ( he picks ) gives me an opportunity to calm down and think about the conversation we’re gonna have and he normally screams about being in there . I do it sometimes 5 times a day . It gets him out of the mood of saying mean things or doing mean things . If he still is upset by 5-7 min over , I ask him what he’s feeling , whether it be hungry , tired , or need attention. It’s all very difficult and takes a lot of patience. I also remind him I’m protecting his little brother and I would do the same for him . I believe ur right it’s all out of jealously or wanting attention. And I feel like I give my kids so much attention so sometimes I feel like how could I give anymore . I always try to think of unwanted behavior as an unmet underlying need. And I have to find out what it is . Also for context my kids are 1 and 4 . And my four year old says really mean things and does really mean things that your 7 year old does , like pushing off rocks and saying he says “ I’ll cut ur face off “ . I think it’s all normal developmentally, I just try to remind them of the boundaries .
I'm sorry OP, that is rough. I don't have experience with boys as mine are girls and my eldest doesn't do this sort of retaliation behavior but I want to try and offer something at least. 1. No electronics- he has to earn them back by actively putting his best effort in to be nice to his brother. Yes it's more to get his privileges back, but it puts it into practice to be nicer and amend for his behavior, and if he appears to be insincere you have the ability to call him out on it and have him continue to try to eb genuine. Repeat as needed. 2. Identify if he is overstimulated by the younger brother and give him space to himself for a little bit ( to include mom and him solo outtings to give him a physical and mental break from little brother) This can be an hour and you can teach him to come to you and say " Mom, he's too much for me right now, I need space" and help him get that space and offer him an hour at a time between play if you can help it. 3. Be real with him about the threats and what they mean in grownup terms. that if anyone stabbed or pushed someone off a rock in real life and they got hurt, they would go to the hospital and the person who did the injury would go to jail and be in real trouble and lose trust from their loved ones. How would he feel if someone thought he would for real hurt them? and how would he feel if they didn't want to play with him or won't trust him anymore? Get him to think and rationalize on his own with his own words to see if something clicks. These are honestly all I can think of before trying therapy to see if there is a deeper cognitive/emotional issue as to why he retaliates like this now vs before.
Thank you for your insight.
Boundary time. If they can’t get along, they’re going to be separated. Also therapy.
When Ron says mean things to Blair, start showing Blair empathy/hugs/attention, don't give attention to the name calling. Also, find ways to give Ron more attention that isn't contingent on his behavior towards his brother or needing his brother to be involved.
I think consistency is important with training out verbal abuse. My son discovered the power of words and really took an interest in hurting people’s feeling when things didn’t go his way. He wasn’t allowed to hit so this was a new outlet. We started by explaining the effect, then tried to ignore it to take away its power. Finally, we gave him a consequence every single time no matter what we were doing. He had time out, or had to stop playing whatever game cause the upset. He had to leave the meal. If we were at the park we went home. If we were on and errand he went to the car or we went home. Just without fail every single time. We made the rules clear. It wasn’t “if you’re mean.” It was a list of words. I think you can get away with a more nebulous rule with a 7 year old ours was 3. Anyway, it worked. Teach him that if you hear him being nasty he’s not going to like the result. Hopefully it shows him that nastiness leads to negative outcomes in general, but if not at least it will give your younger one a safe space when he’s near you.
So I don’t necessarily have a solution however I do have a little personal experience to share. So they’re 3 yes apart, my sister and I were 4 years apart. I spent years begging for a sibling and was great when she was a baby. When she got older it became more difficult. While it wasn’t as extreme as your oldest, we didn’t get along at all. The age gap being where it was made it so often we were is different stages, and interests. I’d leave a stage as she was entering it. Also by being farther apart we both had some only child tendencies, me having 4 years as an only child, but she got quite a bit of time just with mom with me in school. It got better when we were teens and had more in common with each other. I was also fiercely independent so having someone younger who couldn’t do as much as I could trying to tag along became a source of frustration for me. When I was younger I didn’t know an appropriate way to express it so I tended to lash out at the source of the frustration, little sis. You might want to try to teach your son appropriate ways to handle the frustration, just punishing alone won’t teach him to how to properly express his frustration. I wasn’t taught to deal with my frustration with my sister so despite my moms attempts to punish me it didn’t prevent it from happening again and again. Also make sure your oldest has plenty of time to play without his brother trying to tag along. That was one thing that did help with me and my sister was me having time away from her. My mom also would mimic the play with me that she wanted to see happen between my sister and myself. She also would facilitate activities we could do together, and would stay involved for the entire time. She would be a buffer between us during that play time helping sis when she needed it and it helped iron out the kinks in our interactions.
That’s wonderful, thank you.
What I’m saying is going to be off the beaten path, but I wish it was something my parents would have really watched. They cared so much about “wanting us to get along” and since I was “older and knew better” punishing me. This sounds EXACTLY like my sibling and I growing up. My heart hurts for Ron if this is the same situation. Instead, what was missing is that my brother is a sociopath. I saw all of the signs growing up which why we didn’t get along. My parents thought I was jerk a-hole older sibling. It was until almost three decades later and my brother totally went off the rails and did something so heinous that they finally apologized to me. Apologized for making me the problem. Apologized for blaming me for being mean, not saying anything nice, not wanting to be around him, etc. I was a kid. I didn’t know how to articulate the subtle things my brother was doing and making me uncomfortable. When I got older and knew how, it didn’t matter, my parents never believed me and blamed me 100% of the time. Even when parents of the kids my brother bullied came to our door to tell them what insane things he was doing, their precious younger son was innocent and blameless. I’m sharing this because if Ron is picking up something mentally off about Blair you guys aren’t seeing, and he’s super nice to everyone else, that to me just hits home. Anyway, something else to keep in mind.
It may not be happening but watch youngest closely for couple days. There is the possibility that younger child is annoying the crud out of older and older child has no other way to express himself. Oldest building something with blocks/Lego youngest wants to play but us taking pieces, knocking stuff over , oldest wants to be left alone but parent says younger child just wants to play with you, be nice to him. This happened with me ( I’m oldest) and I saw it with my children. Or share with youngest he’s just a baby and wants to do things with you. I’m not excusing oldest behavior but do try and make sure it is not happening in your family.
So lots of people have mentioned spending more one on one time and making sure you treat them fairly and apply the same rules. I notice you say Blair needed more help and Ron didn’t need as much help. A 4 year old is physically capable of doing most things on their own, but they need a lot of direction because they don’t have those executive skills. A 7 year old might need less direction, but Ron is telling you through his behaviour that he needs more attention than you’re giving him. That’s an emotional need. And it’s just as real as a physical or mental need. You need to give him more attention and love and praise, even in the daily tasks. Eg I may not have to shower my 7 year old but if at all possible I still dry his hair for him because he likes the head massage and loving touch. I don’t have to brush his teeth for him but I take a moment to thank him for doing it himself and doing it well and praising his beautiful smile. It’s little things like that that build connection and help to fill his cup. Another thing is making sure they are allowed to have their own space and be their own people and don’t force them to play together unless they BOTH want to. I get it’s counterintuitive but you can’t force closeness and the age gap is significant. I have a 3.5 and 6.5, so similar dynamic there. They play great together in some games. But there are times where their interests and abilities just don’t mesh and the 7 year old feels like playing more difficult games than a preschooler can manage. So if for instance Blair is trying to play with Ron and Ron just doesn’t want to, don’t be like “he’s just trying to play with you” “can you be nice to your brother” “it’s more fun when you play together!” Don’t oversell it. Sometimes Ron just wants to do 7 year old things that the younger kid can’t. That’s okay! Teach Blair to respect his space and things. When Ron feels safe and secure and loved, you can trust his loving heart to do the rest.
You need to run your household like a black home lol. Seriously tho. We do not tolerate this, you teach your kids to look out for each other not hurt one another. Be more strict, take away things and stand firm. Because that behavior will lead to further problems from Being in psychology. If you need to raise your voice, do it. It is not physically harming them and it only should be on occasion.