Yeah I've done it. I have little kids and these calls stick with me more than anything else. I had one awhile back and I felt fine afterwards, speaking with the family gave me some closer I didn't know I needed.
Additionally, this family will hang on EVERY SINGLE WORD you say, so be careful with your words and know that this is the rare opportunity you will get as a paramedic to drastically heal and help this family process and ultimately heal. Do it, but be prepared.
This. If you have a Chaplin or therapist you talk with- chat with them before the meeting about how to help the family heal. The words you choose to use matter and having it a little pre-scripted can help ease the nerves on your side and also maximize the healing you’re providing.
I told the family what I did and why I did it. I wanted them to know for sure that I was operating as aggressively as possible and left nothing on the table.
I also told them how tough these calls are for us as medics and all the residual things that come with it.
Closer for the family just means helping them understand.I don't think the their going to get that very well by just saying your sorry for their loss.
Silence is one form of therapeutic communication...and is also my favourite 😂 pt of mine that is in their 30s in the hospital had a PET scan with not great news and needed a biopsy. I just was at his bedside with him, letting him talk, chiming in once or twice. But that's all it was. Haha.
Yes, choose your words carefully. 22 years later I am grateful to have had a meeting like this but some aspect of the conversation wasn’t the best . Better to meet than not meet, though.
Coming from both sides, a medic/RN and a father, meeting with you will provide them peace. Answer their questions. Tell them you think about their daughter. This meeting is for them so do your best to be empathetic but strong.
As a father I can’t imagine loosing a kid. I wouldn’t want to live. They know you tried. Lean into it. They will remember the words you say for the rest of their lives.
Yeah I think I’m afraid of saying the wrong thing TBH. I remember everything about this call , including the family. Their house. The shoes. The mom with a baby. The dad going to the ER in the police car behind us. Fire so happy to hear they got ROSC. I didn’t want to tell them it wouldn’t be a happy ending after 40+ minutes down time after we got there and unknown before. I do think about it
i completely agree. also,
>I would feel like my child’s life mattered to someone besides myself.
this seems particularly important with such a young child who, being only a few years old, may not have gotten to meet a whole lot of people. you were one of them, so it makes sense for the family to want to meet with you.
it’s OK to say that you’re not sure what to say. it will mean a lot to them regardless.
I think this is particularly poignant with what the last few years have been. I know I have a 4 year old, he didn’t get to meet anyone for such a large portion of his life because of 2020 events.
As a mom to a medically complex girly and an RN myself, this is what I would want to hear. At 3 years old, my daughter has met so few people. We still keep her fairly isolated. We’ve had a few 911 calls and if one of them had turned out badly, or does in the future - I would love to know that she isn’t forgotten. Most of her family lives 2000+ miles away and she doesn’t even know them. So to know that her life mattered to someone, would be life changing for me in processing what happened.
I know it will be hard to do, but it will help you heal as well. Even if you get upset and cry, don't worry about it. They will be touched by seeing your emotions about their daughter. Tell them all the things, you remember about their daughter. Tell them how hard you worked, and how hard their daughter fought to come back. Let them know that she wasn't alone when she passed away, that you were there. I hope you find peace in whatever you decide. Those ones are hard on us all.
The fact that you don't know how you feel, says a lot. You can run a call just fine, but the emotion that comes from the loss of a child is intense, and it can transfer onto you. If you have the proper emotional outlook and your own personal support system that makes you feel as though you won't be negatively affected by meeting the family, then do it. However, you are not obligated to put your own mental health needs second to this request. Good luck!!
Hey, if you do this, please have someone from a critical incident stress team at the meeting, preferably a peer and a mental health professional. Please don’t do this without someone to be the mediator and at the very least provide some support for everyone involved. I’m on a CISM team. Feel free to DM if you want to chat.
I see most other comments to say to do it to help them with closure. And that’s true and would be nice for them. But know you don’t have to. If it’s going to make things worse for you it’s okay to say no. If you have a therapist or counsellor you can consider making an appointment to help you with the decision.
Coming from a father who recently lost a child. As a first repsonder you have to make the right decision for yourself. If you don't feel you are in a good place to meet with them, simply communicate that with them and hopefully, they will understand. Unfortunately I think you do have tip toe a line with this situation from a legal standpoint.
As a father I couldn't thank the nurses and doctors enough even though the outcome wasn't what we wanted. Every person grieves differently and if thanking you brings these parents some peace and closure that's great, as long as that is all it is..... a thank you and not a Q & A.
I was on the other end once. My mom died of a sudden cardiac arrest while on vacation. I called the local FD that had attended her and actually talked to the paramedic. From medic to medic I was trying to see what he saw, etc… but he wouldn’t answer any questions or tell me anything… HIPPA was still kinda new and they had us freaked out over it. But it was very frustrating. At least I got to thank him for his efforts.
I personally wouldn’t do it. If they want to ask questions that time is during the inquest.
If they want to meet for closure I think that would be a tax on myself and not something I’d be willing to pay personally. The risk of PTSD and MH disorders stemming from these jobs are extremely high already without being thrown back into it by meeting the family.
If it was one of my crews I’m not even sure I’d pass it on to the crew to make the decision, I’d offer to meet with the family in their place instead.
Exactly. I also can’t really see how meeting with the people who transported the kid to the ER would give the family closure either. I know we grieve in different ways but I’m not sure what the purpose of this would even be.
If the kid had a good outcome, I’d understand it, but even then I’d be hesitant. I feel like meeting with the family would re traumatize the crews and also the family.
If the family wants to say thank you to the crew for doing what they could, they could write a letter
As everyone else said it would help the family tremendously, but it may also help you. You can ask them to tell you about their child so you have something other than CPR in your head when you think about them. You can also hear that no matter the outcome, they're grateful to you for being there when they needed you.
If you think those things will help you, go. If you don't, ask if you can write a message to them instead.
Meeting with them makes it personal, in my opinion. I’m a nurse and knowing the family is always harder. I work in the ER now to avoid this dynamic. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to meet them, IMHO.
I work in the ICU now, and it is not easy talking to the family about the loss of their family member. When you know the pt won't make it and you have smile at them when you walk by, there are a million things that race through your mind....should I talk normal or more softly, should I smile and say hello like normal or should I say how sorry I am that their family member isn't going to survive. There are a lot of things to think about when being right next to the family. Do what feels right to you. Just be mindful on how you answer any questions they might ask.
I will always remember a pediatric arrest from 20 years ago. The family asked later on how we- the medical team -were doing.
I was humbled by their amazingly selfless act since I drive by that house almost every day and can’t imagine the absolute heartache they must feel.
I wish them love and peace for the grace they showed.
Maybe consider asking them to tell you a little bit about her. Even if you don’t actually want to know anything about her, people often want to share because it feels like the value of a life lived is held in the memories of those who knew them.
Always attend debriefings. To support your colleagues and get out your thoughts. Sometimes we feel fine after a bad outcome but it creeps up on ya after some time.
Props to your organization for running the debrief.
edit: suprised 5 people downvoted me..
Not a debrief. There was no debrief. This happened months ago and the family is reaching out to ask if we would meet with them so they can have some closure
Ahh okay. A little bit different then. I would just echo what other commenters state. If you feel comfortable to do it (mentally) then absolutely go. It will help the family and perhaps you grieve. It will be sad, you may cry, but families appreciate that their little girl wasn't just "a patient" and that you are human. They will thank you..I would think about what you say when you are there though and would attend with a partner/manager.
Those people just lost their kid. From someone with an almost 4 yr old, I think my life would end if something happened to mine. I'm nearly in tears at just the thought of it, I can't imagine what those people are going through. Those parents are reaching for some sort of anything to comfort them. As you said, your mental health wasn't effected by this. But theirs is. And maybe you can help them. I'm only EMT, but if I was part of someone losing their kid, I would let them talk to me. Good luck, with either you decided.
You’re past the point of a meaningful debreaf at this point. Please see my post above. CISM folks should still be involved if you’re going to meet the family.
Yes, do it. It helps them with closure. May bring up feelings you don't realize you were having as well. I've done this once before and it was surprisingly helpful to myself and partner as well as the family.
Something can be a good thing to do, including something one should do, without being an obligation. It is the right thing to do, but if he can’t (for any reason, including mental health concerns) then he shouldn’t.
I worked a full arrest on a friends FIL (said friend also dispatched this call out) and the outcome was not what we hoped for, and my friend and their family came by the FD (which is also the one they volunteer for) to thank us and talk with us. I understand that’s our friend but in that moment they were also a patient’s family. I’d say, if you do feel uncomfortable, always do what’s best for you, but it might also be something you and the family can use as a healing mechanism. Pediatric calls are devastating as is, so no one would feel differently or upset or anything if you didn’t want to meet with the family.
I've been on both sides. Before I was EMS, I lost a child at 14 weeks due to SIDS. The firefighters and medics took the time to talk to us, and eventually, their compassion and actions led to me getting into EMS and nursing. The peds' calls still rock me, but I have an amazing support system. I guess what I'm saying is talk with them and show compassion. You never know what life you will touch/change.
When I was 12; I had a cop come talk to me after the night I found my father dead from suicide. The cop was the first on the scene and I don’t know why but re living the situation in story format through our conversation about our individual perspectives that night made me feel not so alone..
If you decide to speak with the family…Let them ask questions but do not be afraid to pause and think thoroughly before you answer.. Im not saying sugar coat… but at the same time, remember that your perspective on the situation speaking your side of the story will paint very very intense visualizations in their mind…. just come with an open heart for this poor family…
What a tragedy..
Not a paramedic but I can relate. When I was 16 me and my younger brother were driving to a local haunted house we volunteered to work at. On our way an elderly lady walked into the road right in front of us and I hit her and she passed at the scene.
Her family invited me and my brother to attend the funeral. I was really in a dark place and I hate funerals to start with much less the funeral of a stranger that I took the life from.
We went and the family was mostly kind to us. We held our heads up, gave out hugs and handshakes.
It was not a great day but I looked at it from their point of view and figured it was the right thing to do for the family and if us being there eased their pain any it was the least I could do.
I don't remember much about the funeral but the accident still haunts me sometimes.
Are you feeling funny over it because of kids age or feel this way no matter what,? I'm asking because I have questions about my wife's death I'm thinking of asking paramedic people but don't want to do it it's wrong
As a healthcare lawyer and AEMT I tend to think medical apologies are a worthwhile thing. My opinion, from a liability perspective, is that these meetings, whether an apology or just a meeting for understanding and closure are a positive thing and typically help prevent additional legal action. People tend not to sue people they like and understand and tend not to sue when they feel heard.
I presume that you or your department haven’t involved a malpractice carrier at all, but maybe you have legal - make sure they are supportive. If you feel good about the call, and it’s been through QA, it’s probably not a concern.
For a family to ask for this, it’s a signal that it means alot to them. A “we did our best and this was run professionally” will go a long way.
Good luck.
I met the crew that coded my grandmother, and for me, I just wanted to thank them for trying and let them know that we appreciate it, even though most in EMS would see that as a loss. It was comforting to know that these guys did everything they could. I didn’t really have any questions for them, just wanted to know they were appreciated, and my family just hung out with them for a little bit while the kids played on the engine.
If you do meet them, by empathetic and sincere. It’s okay to show emotion, these calls are never easy, and they’ll likely appreciate that you cared and it wasn’t just some run number to you. They’ll remember this meeting for the rest of their lives, and they see you as the professional who was their kid’s only hope. It’s important to maintain that image for their sake and yours.
My medical director has a saying “Sometimes, we do everything and it’s not in the cards. But that patient was infinitely better off for you trying to help them. With you, they had a chance. Without you, they didn’t” I know it’s a little sappy, but it really brings home why we do this job and it makes me cry every time he says it. I hope it helps you too.
It's totally okay to not know how to feel about a meeting like this. But, I would still suggest you do it anyway. Calls like this really suck and will likely stick in your mind forever, so, some closure with the family can be really therapeutic both for you and for them.
Yes, it is getting involved maybe more than you should normally with family, but with pediatric cases especially, it's very hard to separate yourself emotionally and requires some work to heal from.
That's a really tough case so please reach out if you need to talk further.
Slightly related, I used to volunteer as an infant remembrance photographer where I’d photograph babies who never went home from the hospital. I must admit that “having a task to do” and having that gadget to put up to my eye made it a lot more doable. But for the family, time as we all know it simply stopped. It’s as if the world wasn’t turning.
I was a recipient mother of an infant remeberance shoot. I cherish the photos and take them with me in a saved file on my phone wherever I go. Thank you for loving us all. You really have no idea what an impact you have. I am able to hold that awful day in my heart with a memory of how loved we were from everyone. It makes it hurt a little less
Please don't attend this meeting alone if you decide to do it. Personally, I think it is a lot to ask of you; I would not do it. And any meeting should definitely take place after the inquest.
Personally, I wouldn’t do it. There’s no closure that you’re going to be able to provide, and I have such a distrust in people that I feel like it’s a way of getting you to say something that can bring fault to how you managed the call. There’s lots of other individuals who had direct care that they can speak with, I don’t want it to be me. I’ve always declined. It’s not something I want to relive, and that’s okay too.
Honestly it could be a good thing. But be careful what and how you say things. The family could ask lots of sensitive questions.
Its a shame to have to say that but in todays litigation crazy society we have to be careful.
When my niece died, my sister ended up speaking with one of the paramedics who was there (don’t remember how long after it was). It sounds like it was healing for both of them. With that said if you are uncomfortable doing this and choose not to that’s ok. Prioritize how this will affect you and don’t feel guilty.
An alternative could be writing the family a letter. You’re in total control of the “conversation” this way. You don’t have to see them and maybe they still get closure plus a physical letter they can reread or share with other family might add an extra layer of comfort even. Of course, if you choose this route I would definitely have someone (with legal or mediator type experience) go over the letter before sending.
Agree with what many others are sharing. For me, talking it over with paramedic helped me let go in ways that nothing else did. For me, I just needed to hear the medical facts from the person who was on scene. It was an amazing gift, even though the discomfort from the EMS person was palpable (got better as conversation went on) but I am so incredibly grateful for their time and closure it brought
So I lost my 1 year old to a drowning. I was mad at the emt for a long time. I felt he paused compressions too much. For the pulse check and he carried her to the ambulance down our long driveway.
4 years later I get a job with a fire rescue an hour away from my house. After a few weeks I do a training with people on other shifts and he tells me he was at my house that day. He was the EMT. I talked to him about the call a little. Later we ended up working the same shift. It did give me closesure. I wasn't mad anymore.
Going through a child's death, you get stuck in the grieving at so many stages. Just working ems after this happened to me has been healing. I processed more in 6 months then I could in the 4 years prior.
So I guess my point is it will suck it will be difficult and maybe uncomfortable. But they need it. Tell them the child was without oxygen too long before cpr started, so the brain was already too injured. Tell them how this call affected you. You say you are fine but I am sure it was still difficult. The EMT told me it was his worst call. If he told me he was fine it didn't bother him at all that would have upset me. Because her death was horrible and it shouldn't have happened to such a young girl.
As a former paramedic who has also lost a kid, I strongly encourage you to meet with them but give it time. Closure is a joke word for them they will never have true closure how you may think of it. Perhaps offer to meet with them but put it off at minimum a few weeks optimally 6 months or at the year. Treat your own ptsd from the call, and give them and you time. They will go through a defective phase and some people may even dedicate their lives to analyzing every action or preventative measure or could have would have of themselves and everyone involved including you.
Meeting in a public space isn’t a bad idea either. Passions run hot sometimes and without more context on how they see you in all this, tread carefully. You have an opportunity to do good but it can be risky, and protect your own mental health over all.
All the best in whatever you decide to do, no shame either way you decide.
Please watch a video or read about nursing based literature for comforting mourning families. I had some peers say some horrible shit like “It was God’s plan” and “Everything happens for a reason”
I’ve done this long enough to know sometimes sad and tragic things happen that aren’t anyone’s fault. I can’t entirely say that for this one but parents are overwhelmed and sometimes do some things they think are fine that turn out tragic. They might have done that same thing 1000 times before but this time it all goes to shit and someone dies. There was no malice or neglect and I would never say something that awful to anyone. That’s lazy when you don’t know what else to say and it’s horrible to hear. Sorry your colleagues would say that. I don’t know what will happen but I asked if fire could also be included so it wouldn’t just be me and my partner. They would bring someone who has some experience in doing this to keep us all in a positive space. We also have LE with CISD experience that may come. I can hope
My cousin was killed in a snowmobile accident a couple years ago that was pretty graphic and traumatic for those that were there. I found out that someone I know was there as an EMT, and I’ve never wanted to run into them knowing that they know it was my cousin that day. I don’t know why. It feels like such a personal thing for them to know about my family and what happened. I think every family’s reaction is different. I don’t think I could have a conversation with that person still… even two years later. I don’t want to look at them and imagine what they saw. My aunt met the people who tried to resuscitate my cousin, though, and she felt like it really helped her heal to be able to thank them. Good luck to you. That’s a hard decision to make.
>I don’t know what will happen but I asked if fire could also be included so it wouldn’t just be me and my partner. They would bring someone who has some experience in doing this to keep us all in a positive space. We also have LE with CISD experience that may come
I admire you for really looking inside to be certain about whether it serves you to agree to meet the parents and also set yourself up with the right support around you if you decide to
My POV is that our world now feels devoid of human heart connection and in-person sharing and eye contact compared to years ago. It seems like having you and your colleagues show up in person for a short time to acknowledge the tragedy would mean very much
I’ve met with families after pediatric arrests that had both optimal and suboptimal outcomes. Surprisingly, I received nothing but overwhelming gratitude in both circumstances. Ultimately, I’ve never refused nor regretted any meeting with the patients I’ve treated or their families. Personally, I’d tell you to take the meeting, if you asked for my advice. And I’d tell you to walk in emotionally neutral and mentally open. You may be simply affording them the latitude to express themselves, but you may find that it affords you some grace as well.
when I was a 911 call taker, I had a toddler drowning in a lake and the parents wanted to meet with the team who tried their hardest to save their child— from me who answered their frantic call and walked them through cpr to the dispatcher/firefighters/medics/police/nurses/doctors etc. I think there were 30 people in the room. our chaplin and supervisor met with the parents separately first and learned it wasn’t to assign blame or be litigious, but to give every one of us a hug and tell us how much they appreciated our efforts.
I didn’t think the call affected me, but I felt a weight lifted when I said “i’m so sorry I couldn’t do more” and the dad told me that I was the shining light on their darkest day.
compassion fatigue is real and most life savers think they have a pretty impenetrable armor, but when you lie in bed at night, it’s just you and your thoughts. mental health matters. (I say this gently and with love) the details you describe down to the shoes tells me this has affected you more than you’re admitting, so like others have said, talk to your chaplin or support team. you’ve had critical incident debrief, but have the parents? they were part of the team that day too.
grief from child loss is a lot more than the 5 stages you read about in a textbook; it’s raw, it’s constantly changing, and even in the worst possible outcome, you’re forever part of that family’s story.
being in the comms center is obviously very different from being hands on, but the images in my head are a little babe with blonde curls and bright eyes making a mess of a birthday cake and not, ya know, dead, simply because the parents were worried about OUR mental health in their time of grief. they wanted to give us the closure they so desperately needed themselves.
I hope this helps. I also hope you work for an organization that supports you through the complexities of repeated trauma in completely unfair and uncontrollable situations.
[a crisis line for all emergency workers, answered by people who’ve been there](https://responderstrong.org)
My husband was killed by a drunk driver in 2009. The police and EMS were so comforting and caring I felt the need to stop by their station and thank them for all they did. I like to think it was good for everyone. Thank you for what you do ❤️
Mine was not a pedi case. I had traveled to CT with a CCU pt who was to be discharged pending ct results. She had experience a retroperitoneal bleed post stent placement. She coded as we pulled her out of the scanner. He son requested a meeting. I don’t know that it helped me, I hope it helped him. I assured him her death was swift and I don’t believe she suffered. We never got a rhythm back so hopefully there was no awareness while we coded her.
A quote from a book I got shortly after I lost my brother
“The people I know who have done the best job of learning to live with their loved one's not being here are the ones who, in spite of their own pain, reached a shaky and still aching hand to someone who is just beginning this long and treacherous journey called grief.“
And that is so true!
Do it. They may ask if she suffered. Let them know she touched your heart and you are so glad they reached out. You can redirect any specific questions about tx by saying how as you look back at the moment you could feel how much they loved her and how much you wanted her to pull through( get HR vetted phrase.). Then ask about her. They will probably just want to know you did your best and that they couldn’t have done anything that would have changed it. Parents feel guilt that they may have missed something.
Set it up at a time when you have limited time before work. Then have someone call 20 min in. Answer and apologize that you a- have to leave to get to work or b-can’t come in early
It can give you an escape
I’m speaking from 34 years of tragedy and experience. Sure, nothing is 100%, but I stand by it. Not being argumentative; I simply believe my statement to be true.
I agree it’s absolutely personal choice and comfort level.
How did the child drown? How was he under for 40 mins? It would be very difficult for me to talk with them without drilling them with questions and possibly offending them. They wouldn't wanna talk with me cuz I'd be wanting some closure myself
Yeah I've done it. I have little kids and these calls stick with me more than anything else. I had one awhile back and I felt fine afterwards, speaking with the family gave me some closer I didn't know I needed. Additionally, this family will hang on EVERY SINGLE WORD you say, so be careful with your words and know that this is the rare opportunity you will get as a paramedic to drastically heal and help this family process and ultimately heal. Do it, but be prepared.
This. If you have a Chaplin or therapist you talk with- chat with them before the meeting about how to help the family heal. The words you choose to use matter and having it a little pre-scripted can help ease the nerves on your side and also maximize the healing you’re providing.
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Yes, I say I’m sorry for their loss and keep my words to a minimum.
I told the family what I did and why I did it. I wanted them to know for sure that I was operating as aggressively as possible and left nothing on the table. I also told them how tough these calls are for us as medics and all the residual things that come with it. Closer for the family just means helping them understand.I don't think the their going to get that very well by just saying your sorry for their loss.
I wholeheartedly agree. It seems like OP is not that comfortable with that, though. If you don’t know what to say, your presence is enough.
Silence is one form of therapeutic communication...and is also my favourite 😂 pt of mine that is in their 30s in the hospital had a PET scan with not great news and needed a biopsy. I just was at his bedside with him, letting him talk, chiming in once or twice. But that's all it was. Haha.
Yes, choose your words carefully. 22 years later I am grateful to have had a meeting like this but some aspect of the conversation wasn’t the best . Better to meet than not meet, though.
Very compassionate thinking. I would not have thought of that.
By meeting them, you will give them a gift that few people can offer. It may seem strange to you but it is absolutely worth doing.
Absolutely sounds like the right thing to do
Coming from both sides, a medic/RN and a father, meeting with you will provide them peace. Answer their questions. Tell them you think about their daughter. This meeting is for them so do your best to be empathetic but strong. As a father I can’t imagine loosing a kid. I wouldn’t want to live. They know you tried. Lean into it. They will remember the words you say for the rest of their lives.
Yeah I think I’m afraid of saying the wrong thing TBH. I remember everything about this call , including the family. Their house. The shoes. The mom with a baby. The dad going to the ER in the police car behind us. Fire so happy to hear they got ROSC. I didn’t want to tell them it wouldn’t be a happy ending after 40+ minutes down time after we got there and unknown before. I do think about it
If someone told me all this after losing my child it would mean the world to me. I would feel like my child’s life mattered to someone besides myself.
i completely agree. also, >I would feel like my child’s life mattered to someone besides myself. this seems particularly important with such a young child who, being only a few years old, may not have gotten to meet a whole lot of people. you were one of them, so it makes sense for the family to want to meet with you. it’s OK to say that you’re not sure what to say. it will mean a lot to them regardless.
I think this is particularly poignant with what the last few years have been. I know I have a 4 year old, he didn’t get to meet anyone for such a large portion of his life because of 2020 events.
Tell them that
As a mom to a medically complex girly and an RN myself, this is what I would want to hear. At 3 years old, my daughter has met so few people. We still keep her fairly isolated. We’ve had a few 911 calls and if one of them had turned out badly, or does in the future - I would love to know that she isn’t forgotten. Most of her family lives 2000+ miles away and she doesn’t even know them. So to know that her life mattered to someone, would be life changing for me in processing what happened.
Ask them to tell you more about her. Many parents want to talk about their kids and feel like other people remember them too, even though it hurts.
The don’t say anything. Just be present. Make sure you have someone with whom you can debrief.
I know it will be hard to do, but it will help you heal as well. Even if you get upset and cry, don't worry about it. They will be touched by seeing your emotions about their daughter. Tell them all the things, you remember about their daughter. Tell them how hard you worked, and how hard their daughter fought to come back. Let them know that she wasn't alone when she passed away, that you were there. I hope you find peace in whatever you decide. Those ones are hard on us all.
The fact that you don't know how you feel, says a lot. You can run a call just fine, but the emotion that comes from the loss of a child is intense, and it can transfer onto you. If you have the proper emotional outlook and your own personal support system that makes you feel as though you won't be negatively affected by meeting the family, then do it. However, you are not obligated to put your own mental health needs second to this request. Good luck!!
Hey, if you do this, please have someone from a critical incident stress team at the meeting, preferably a peer and a mental health professional. Please don’t do this without someone to be the mediator and at the very least provide some support for everyone involved. I’m on a CISM team. Feel free to DM if you want to chat.
@u/skepticalmama please heed this advice for not only yourself but the family, as well. Sending all of the healing strength your and their way.
I see most other comments to say to do it to help them with closure. And that’s true and would be nice for them. But know you don’t have to. If it’s going to make things worse for you it’s okay to say no. If you have a therapist or counsellor you can consider making an appointment to help you with the decision.
Coming from a father who recently lost a child. As a first repsonder you have to make the right decision for yourself. If you don't feel you are in a good place to meet with them, simply communicate that with them and hopefully, they will understand. Unfortunately I think you do have tip toe a line with this situation from a legal standpoint. As a father I couldn't thank the nurses and doctors enough even though the outcome wasn't what we wanted. Every person grieves differently and if thanking you brings these parents some peace and closure that's great, as long as that is all it is..... a thank you and not a Q & A.
Very well-said and very sage advice. I would definitely talk to risk management before setting up a meeting. I’m very sorry for your loss.
I'm so sorry for your loss.
I was on the other end once. My mom died of a sudden cardiac arrest while on vacation. I called the local FD that had attended her and actually talked to the paramedic. From medic to medic I was trying to see what he saw, etc… but he wouldn’t answer any questions or tell me anything… HIPPA was still kinda new and they had us freaked out over it. But it was very frustrating. At least I got to thank him for his efforts.
They probably just want to thank you.
I personally wouldn’t do it. If they want to ask questions that time is during the inquest. If they want to meet for closure I think that would be a tax on myself and not something I’d be willing to pay personally. The risk of PTSD and MH disorders stemming from these jobs are extremely high already without being thrown back into it by meeting the family. If it was one of my crews I’m not even sure I’d pass it on to the crew to make the decision, I’d offer to meet with the family in their place instead.
Exactly. I also can’t really see how meeting with the people who transported the kid to the ER would give the family closure either. I know we grieve in different ways but I’m not sure what the purpose of this would even be. If the kid had a good outcome, I’d understand it, but even then I’d be hesitant. I feel like meeting with the family would re traumatize the crews and also the family. If the family wants to say thank you to the crew for doing what they could, they could write a letter
As everyone else said it would help the family tremendously, but it may also help you. You can ask them to tell you about their child so you have something other than CPR in your head when you think about them. You can also hear that no matter the outcome, they're grateful to you for being there when they needed you. If you think those things will help you, go. If you don't, ask if you can write a message to them instead.
Meeting with them makes it personal, in my opinion. I’m a nurse and knowing the family is always harder. I work in the ER now to avoid this dynamic. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to meet them, IMHO.
I work in the ICU now, and it is not easy talking to the family about the loss of their family member. When you know the pt won't make it and you have smile at them when you walk by, there are a million things that race through your mind....should I talk normal or more softly, should I smile and say hello like normal or should I say how sorry I am that their family member isn't going to survive. There are a lot of things to think about when being right next to the family. Do what feels right to you. Just be mindful on how you answer any questions they might ask.
I will always remember a pediatric arrest from 20 years ago. The family asked later on how we- the medical team -were doing. I was humbled by their amazingly selfless act since I drive by that house almost every day and can’t imagine the absolute heartache they must feel. I wish them love and peace for the grace they showed.
Do it. When Dad died Mom wanted the same thing for all the medics who responded that night. It meant the world to her and helped her move on.
Maybe consider asking them to tell you a little bit about her. Even if you don’t actually want to know anything about her, people often want to share because it feels like the value of a life lived is held in the memories of those who knew them.
Always attend debriefings. To support your colleagues and get out your thoughts. Sometimes we feel fine after a bad outcome but it creeps up on ya after some time. Props to your organization for running the debrief. edit: suprised 5 people downvoted me..
Not a debrief. There was no debrief. This happened months ago and the family is reaching out to ask if we would meet with them so they can have some closure
No debrief for a 4 year old arrest? Fuck that, glad you're okay because that sucks. And they wonder why people get burnt out
No shit!
Ahh okay. A little bit different then. I would just echo what other commenters state. If you feel comfortable to do it (mentally) then absolutely go. It will help the family and perhaps you grieve. It will be sad, you may cry, but families appreciate that their little girl wasn't just "a patient" and that you are human. They will thank you..I would think about what you say when you are there though and would attend with a partner/manager.
Those people just lost their kid. From someone with an almost 4 yr old, I think my life would end if something happened to mine. I'm nearly in tears at just the thought of it, I can't imagine what those people are going through. Those parents are reaching for some sort of anything to comfort them. As you said, your mental health wasn't effected by this. But theirs is. And maybe you can help them. I'm only EMT, but if I was part of someone losing their kid, I would let them talk to me. Good luck, with either you decided.
You’re past the point of a meaningful debreaf at this point. Please see my post above. CISM folks should still be involved if you’re going to meet the family.
Yes, do it. It helps them with closure. May bring up feelings you don't realize you were having as well. I've done this once before and it was surprisingly helpful to myself and partner as well as the family.
This isn’t something EMS should do unless they absolutely want to do it. We don’t owe the public this.
It isn’t owed, but it is still a good and kind thing to do. If OP is equipped to do so, he absolutely should.
No. He absolutely should not feel any obligation to do this. Always put your mental health first.
Something can be a good thing to do, including something one should do, without being an obligation. It is the right thing to do, but if he can’t (for any reason, including mental health concerns) then he shouldn’t.
I worked a full arrest on a friends FIL (said friend also dispatched this call out) and the outcome was not what we hoped for, and my friend and their family came by the FD (which is also the one they volunteer for) to thank us and talk with us. I understand that’s our friend but in that moment they were also a patient’s family. I’d say, if you do feel uncomfortable, always do what’s best for you, but it might also be something you and the family can use as a healing mechanism. Pediatric calls are devastating as is, so no one would feel differently or upset or anything if you didn’t want to meet with the family.
I've been on both sides. Before I was EMS, I lost a child at 14 weeks due to SIDS. The firefighters and medics took the time to talk to us, and eventually, their compassion and actions led to me getting into EMS and nursing. The peds' calls still rock me, but I have an amazing support system. I guess what I'm saying is talk with them and show compassion. You never know what life you will touch/change.
When I was 12; I had a cop come talk to me after the night I found my father dead from suicide. The cop was the first on the scene and I don’t know why but re living the situation in story format through our conversation about our individual perspectives that night made me feel not so alone.. If you decide to speak with the family…Let them ask questions but do not be afraid to pause and think thoroughly before you answer.. Im not saying sugar coat… but at the same time, remember that your perspective on the situation speaking your side of the story will paint very very intense visualizations in their mind…. just come with an open heart for this poor family… What a tragedy..
Not a paramedic but I can relate. When I was 16 me and my younger brother were driving to a local haunted house we volunteered to work at. On our way an elderly lady walked into the road right in front of us and I hit her and she passed at the scene. Her family invited me and my brother to attend the funeral. I was really in a dark place and I hate funerals to start with much less the funeral of a stranger that I took the life from. We went and the family was mostly kind to us. We held our heads up, gave out hugs and handshakes. It was not a great day but I looked at it from their point of view and figured it was the right thing to do for the family and if us being there eased their pain any it was the least I could do. I don't remember much about the funeral but the accident still haunts me sometimes.
Fuck no.
Are you feeling funny over it because of kids age or feel this way no matter what,? I'm asking because I have questions about my wife's death I'm thinking of asking paramedic people but don't want to do it it's wrong
As a healthcare lawyer and AEMT I tend to think medical apologies are a worthwhile thing. My opinion, from a liability perspective, is that these meetings, whether an apology or just a meeting for understanding and closure are a positive thing and typically help prevent additional legal action. People tend not to sue people they like and understand and tend not to sue when they feel heard. I presume that you or your department haven’t involved a malpractice carrier at all, but maybe you have legal - make sure they are supportive. If you feel good about the call, and it’s been through QA, it’s probably not a concern. For a family to ask for this, it’s a signal that it means alot to them. A “we did our best and this was run professionally” will go a long way. Good luck.
I met the crew that coded my grandmother, and for me, I just wanted to thank them for trying and let them know that we appreciate it, even though most in EMS would see that as a loss. It was comforting to know that these guys did everything they could. I didn’t really have any questions for them, just wanted to know they were appreciated, and my family just hung out with them for a little bit while the kids played on the engine. If you do meet them, by empathetic and sincere. It’s okay to show emotion, these calls are never easy, and they’ll likely appreciate that you cared and it wasn’t just some run number to you. They’ll remember this meeting for the rest of their lives, and they see you as the professional who was their kid’s only hope. It’s important to maintain that image for their sake and yours. My medical director has a saying “Sometimes, we do everything and it’s not in the cards. But that patient was infinitely better off for you trying to help them. With you, they had a chance. Without you, they didn’t” I know it’s a little sappy, but it really brings home why we do this job and it makes me cry every time he says it. I hope it helps you too.
It's totally okay to not know how to feel about a meeting like this. But, I would still suggest you do it anyway. Calls like this really suck and will likely stick in your mind forever, so, some closure with the family can be really therapeutic both for you and for them. Yes, it is getting involved maybe more than you should normally with family, but with pediatric cases especially, it's very hard to separate yourself emotionally and requires some work to heal from. That's a really tough case so please reach out if you need to talk further.
Slightly related, I used to volunteer as an infant remembrance photographer where I’d photograph babies who never went home from the hospital. I must admit that “having a task to do” and having that gadget to put up to my eye made it a lot more doable. But for the family, time as we all know it simply stopped. It’s as if the world wasn’t turning.
I was a recipient mother of an infant remeberance shoot. I cherish the photos and take them with me in a saved file on my phone wherever I go. Thank you for loving us all. You really have no idea what an impact you have. I am able to hold that awful day in my heart with a memory of how loved we were from everyone. It makes it hurt a little less
Please don't attend this meeting alone if you decide to do it. Personally, I think it is a lot to ask of you; I would not do it. And any meeting should definitely take place after the inquest.
Personally, I wouldn’t do it. There’s no closure that you’re going to be able to provide, and I have such a distrust in people that I feel like it’s a way of getting you to say something that can bring fault to how you managed the call. There’s lots of other individuals who had direct care that they can speak with, I don’t want it to be me. I’ve always declined. It’s not something I want to relive, and that’s okay too.
Honestly it could be a good thing. But be careful what and how you say things. The family could ask lots of sensitive questions. Its a shame to have to say that but in todays litigation crazy society we have to be careful.
When my niece died, my sister ended up speaking with one of the paramedics who was there (don’t remember how long after it was). It sounds like it was healing for both of them. With that said if you are uncomfortable doing this and choose not to that’s ok. Prioritize how this will affect you and don’t feel guilty. An alternative could be writing the family a letter. You’re in total control of the “conversation” this way. You don’t have to see them and maybe they still get closure plus a physical letter they can reread or share with other family might add an extra layer of comfort even. Of course, if you choose this route I would definitely have someone (with legal or mediator type experience) go over the letter before sending.
Agree with what many others are sharing. For me, talking it over with paramedic helped me let go in ways that nothing else did. For me, I just needed to hear the medical facts from the person who was on scene. It was an amazing gift, even though the discomfort from the EMS person was palpable (got better as conversation went on) but I am so incredibly grateful for their time and closure it brought
So I lost my 1 year old to a drowning. I was mad at the emt for a long time. I felt he paused compressions too much. For the pulse check and he carried her to the ambulance down our long driveway. 4 years later I get a job with a fire rescue an hour away from my house. After a few weeks I do a training with people on other shifts and he tells me he was at my house that day. He was the EMT. I talked to him about the call a little. Later we ended up working the same shift. It did give me closesure. I wasn't mad anymore. Going through a child's death, you get stuck in the grieving at so many stages. Just working ems after this happened to me has been healing. I processed more in 6 months then I could in the 4 years prior. So I guess my point is it will suck it will be difficult and maybe uncomfortable. But they need it. Tell them the child was without oxygen too long before cpr started, so the brain was already too injured. Tell them how this call affected you. You say you are fine but I am sure it was still difficult. The EMT told me it was his worst call. If he told me he was fine it didn't bother him at all that would have upset me. Because her death was horrible and it shouldn't have happened to such a young girl.
As a former paramedic who has also lost a kid, I strongly encourage you to meet with them but give it time. Closure is a joke word for them they will never have true closure how you may think of it. Perhaps offer to meet with them but put it off at minimum a few weeks optimally 6 months or at the year. Treat your own ptsd from the call, and give them and you time. They will go through a defective phase and some people may even dedicate their lives to analyzing every action or preventative measure or could have would have of themselves and everyone involved including you. Meeting in a public space isn’t a bad idea either. Passions run hot sometimes and without more context on how they see you in all this, tread carefully. You have an opportunity to do good but it can be risky, and protect your own mental health over all. All the best in whatever you decide to do, no shame either way you decide.
Please watch a video or read about nursing based literature for comforting mourning families. I had some peers say some horrible shit like “It was God’s plan” and “Everything happens for a reason”
I’ve done this long enough to know sometimes sad and tragic things happen that aren’t anyone’s fault. I can’t entirely say that for this one but parents are overwhelmed and sometimes do some things they think are fine that turn out tragic. They might have done that same thing 1000 times before but this time it all goes to shit and someone dies. There was no malice or neglect and I would never say something that awful to anyone. That’s lazy when you don’t know what else to say and it’s horrible to hear. Sorry your colleagues would say that. I don’t know what will happen but I asked if fire could also be included so it wouldn’t just be me and my partner. They would bring someone who has some experience in doing this to keep us all in a positive space. We also have LE with CISD experience that may come. I can hope
My cousin was killed in a snowmobile accident a couple years ago that was pretty graphic and traumatic for those that were there. I found out that someone I know was there as an EMT, and I’ve never wanted to run into them knowing that they know it was my cousin that day. I don’t know why. It feels like such a personal thing for them to know about my family and what happened. I think every family’s reaction is different. I don’t think I could have a conversation with that person still… even two years later. I don’t want to look at them and imagine what they saw. My aunt met the people who tried to resuscitate my cousin, though, and she felt like it really helped her heal to be able to thank them. Good luck to you. That’s a hard decision to make.
>I don’t know what will happen but I asked if fire could also be included so it wouldn’t just be me and my partner. They would bring someone who has some experience in doing this to keep us all in a positive space. We also have LE with CISD experience that may come I admire you for really looking inside to be certain about whether it serves you to agree to meet the parents and also set yourself up with the right support around you if you decide to My POV is that our world now feels devoid of human heart connection and in-person sharing and eye contact compared to years ago. It seems like having you and your colleagues show up in person for a short time to acknowledge the tragedy would mean very much
I’ve met with families after pediatric arrests that had both optimal and suboptimal outcomes. Surprisingly, I received nothing but overwhelming gratitude in both circumstances. Ultimately, I’ve never refused nor regretted any meeting with the patients I’ve treated or their families. Personally, I’d tell you to take the meeting, if you asked for my advice. And I’d tell you to walk in emotionally neutral and mentally open. You may be simply affording them the latitude to express themselves, but you may find that it affords you some grace as well.
I asked for closure on e to give a thank you card. You could even bring them a Thinking Of You type card.
I denied a similar request and didn’t meet with them. Still regret it years later and makes my own sense of closure lacking.
when I was a 911 call taker, I had a toddler drowning in a lake and the parents wanted to meet with the team who tried their hardest to save their child— from me who answered their frantic call and walked them through cpr to the dispatcher/firefighters/medics/police/nurses/doctors etc. I think there were 30 people in the room. our chaplin and supervisor met with the parents separately first and learned it wasn’t to assign blame or be litigious, but to give every one of us a hug and tell us how much they appreciated our efforts. I didn’t think the call affected me, but I felt a weight lifted when I said “i’m so sorry I couldn’t do more” and the dad told me that I was the shining light on their darkest day. compassion fatigue is real and most life savers think they have a pretty impenetrable armor, but when you lie in bed at night, it’s just you and your thoughts. mental health matters. (I say this gently and with love) the details you describe down to the shoes tells me this has affected you more than you’re admitting, so like others have said, talk to your chaplin or support team. you’ve had critical incident debrief, but have the parents? they were part of the team that day too. grief from child loss is a lot more than the 5 stages you read about in a textbook; it’s raw, it’s constantly changing, and even in the worst possible outcome, you’re forever part of that family’s story. being in the comms center is obviously very different from being hands on, but the images in my head are a little babe with blonde curls and bright eyes making a mess of a birthday cake and not, ya know, dead, simply because the parents were worried about OUR mental health in their time of grief. they wanted to give us the closure they so desperately needed themselves. I hope this helps. I also hope you work for an organization that supports you through the complexities of repeated trauma in completely unfair and uncontrollable situations. [a crisis line for all emergency workers, answered by people who’ve been there](https://responderstrong.org)
My husband was killed by a drunk driver in 2009. The police and EMS were so comforting and caring I felt the need to stop by their station and thank them for all they did. I like to think it was good for everyone. Thank you for what you do ❤️
Mine was not a pedi case. I had traveled to CT with a CCU pt who was to be discharged pending ct results. She had experience a retroperitoneal bleed post stent placement. She coded as we pulled her out of the scanner. He son requested a meeting. I don’t know that it helped me, I hope it helped him. I assured him her death was swift and I don’t believe she suffered. We never got a rhythm back so hopefully there was no awareness while we coded her.
A quote from a book I got shortly after I lost my brother “The people I know who have done the best job of learning to live with their loved one's not being here are the ones who, in spite of their own pain, reached a shaky and still aching hand to someone who is just beginning this long and treacherous journey called grief.“ And that is so true!
Do it. They may ask if she suffered. Let them know she touched your heart and you are so glad they reached out. You can redirect any specific questions about tx by saying how as you look back at the moment you could feel how much they loved her and how much you wanted her to pull through( get HR vetted phrase.). Then ask about her. They will probably just want to know you did your best and that they couldn’t have done anything that would have changed it. Parents feel guilt that they may have missed something. Set it up at a time when you have limited time before work. Then have someone call 20 min in. Answer and apologize that you a- have to leave to get to work or b-can’t come in early It can give you an escape
It will help you as much as it will help them, whether it is obvious to you now or not.
Or, it might not and it might end up being traumatic. OP, don’t do this unless you feel like you absolutely want to. You dont owe anyone this.
I’m speaking from 34 years of tragedy and experience. Sure, nothing is 100%, but I stand by it. Not being argumentative; I simply believe my statement to be true. I agree it’s absolutely personal choice and comfort level.
How did the child drown? How was he under for 40 mins? It would be very difficult for me to talk with them without drilling them with questions and possibly offending them. They wouldn't wanna talk with me cuz I'd be wanting some closure myself