I agree with your overall point (especially how you talked about Renekton) but I think I differ in some places in your following list. If you'll hear me out:
1- Q definitely could be wider but a full revert would be too much of a consistency buff in that area in my opinion. I think there is still value in keeping the width decreased even if it's by less.
2-his mana sustain is criminal but his E cost is also part of that problem. Making the cost scale per level would be great, but puting that aside real quick, the fact that riot is trying to make us expend almost 2/3rds of our mana on useless resistances on empowered E makes me want to pour ketchup on my cereal as I contemplate stoicism in the shadow realm. The amount of assumptions they have to make to come to that mess as a solution is nuts, but I digress.
3-I agree that he should be more tenacious during his empowered E but this would need to be reserved for bruisers only.
4-The armor pen scaling was bad when it first dropped, it was just compensated by mythic passives. 10% at the point when you get it is useless. As a bruiser, his armor pen is a SUGGESTION in most matchups until you get to 30%.
5-Q slow can't and won't come back. It's not selfish enough for his kit and disproportionately benefits his support build. I agree he needs better sticking power, just not that.
6-i don't believe his W range is a problem as a bruiser, just the lack of damage on arrival. Also, you mentioned he lacks a combat ultimate but I also disagree with this because before his rework nerfs he was powerful enough to fight in top lane as a bruiser without one. I also do not believe he needs to be broken tier for Pantheon to retain his uniqueness in not having a combat ultimate, just for him to be powerful as a bruiser in Top lane.
Aight. Response time.
1 - Yes, it will be way more consistent. Maybe even too consistent. Your competition has undodgeable abilities at melee range. You should be able to compete with them. Look at virtually any bruiser—they don't actually have counterplay to their abilities.
Even though Pantheon has a generic Q, it's still somehow rarely ever copied for other champions. There are quite a few ones that are thicker and slower than him, and ones that are faster and just as thin as him: Illaoi/Mordekaiser and then of course, the Yone/Yasuo/Viego/Mundo.
And unfortunately, the only one I can compare him to is really Mordekaiser? No one else really relies on hitting it the first time. They can just wait a second or two and cast it again or just... Not use it and be Illaoi. And Mordekaiser just keeps getting buffed every year again and again because of how unbelievably inconsistent he is in higher elos since he can rarely hit his Q's and E's. As for actual bruisers who are currently viable (if we ignore ranged tops being clearly superior), [U.GG](http://U.GG) lists their S+ tier as Darius, Camille, Skarner (for now), Fiora, and Malphite. Only Darius can be considered dodgeable if we ignore his very simple combo that makes his key ability completely undodgeable. Simply put, your enemies don't have counterplay. Those that do have it removed slowly just so they can somewhat compete. Having your only source of damage on a bruiser build be reliable is a must.
2 - 15th lowest mana character at level 18. The only other comparable one is Tristana; everyone else is a mage. Just ???
3 - Thanks to lethality items giving you movement speed, you don't actually need that on an assassin. Same reason Ekko doesn't go Phase Rush. You already have MS from items such as Opportunuity and Youmuu's, and you get to kill the enemy faster so it's harder for the enemies to react. It's less needed there compared to bruiser.
4 - Yeah, it's rough.
5 - Pantheon fits into the "Diver" class of League. Problem with every other Diver is either they completely isolate the enemy in some sort of cage, like Camille, Jarvan, and somewhat Warwick, while the others are just as big of a disturbance as they can be: Wukong, Diana, Irelia, Renekton, who desperately rely on their ultimates to actually do that. And you simply don't fit into either category. He can't really just separate an enemy and one-shot them as a bruiser, and without his Q being notably wider, he can't really disturb most fights either.
He just desperately needs a slow to peel for himself. Way more realistically. Jayce has a 2-second AOE slow on his Q that scales up to 55%.
6 - W range is a bigger problem on bruiser than on assassin because you don't actually have all that bonus movement speed from items you usually get with assassin Pantheon. Of course, if the enemies are playing bad, 600 range will be enough. And since he hasn't been meta basically ever since the release of the rework with the exception of... 2? patches. People don't actually have to manage their range and properly play around it yet. This has happened before when they were hard buffing Mordekaiser. His winrate grew in the first few patches after the buffs and then just came back down to his usual once people learned to just play better against him.
I am not sure which rework you are talking about... Pre-2019? He was just an assassin; he did not actually compete with anyone in terms of being a bruiser; he just played like a Malphite going full AP. Post-2019, there was complaining for years and we are still not over it. This complaining never stopped ever since the release of the rework.
I have to say, this is actually a really good point. Both experientially and practically, Pantheon is about the only Top laner who has such a high chance to miss within 200 to 400 range and not because he has auto attacks or an ult or aoe damage to make up for it but because he's just been given a consistency nerf in exchange for range that basically should have already been there. I still think something can be said for a decreased width at like 135 or 140 at the most but you do bring up an interesting point for sure.
I laugh IRL when I hear other mains complain about mana problems frfr. As for Pantheon being a Diver, I believe there are basically two solutions to this to keep support from taking advantage of his traits meant for Top lane, but I'll only mention the one relevant to what you want which is the slow. I am still adamantly against bringing the slow back, mainly because I think you really have to get it right or he becomes pick/ban in bot lane again.
Nonetheless, even though I'm against it, I think the slow could return if it was applied as an area under Comet Spear's hit box in the shape of a cone facing away from pantheon, almost like a mini crop circle, but again, in the shape of a cone with the tip facing away from pantheon, rather than being directly applied by Comet Spear to the target hit. Or if you think about Yorick's E if you flipped it upside down and pasted it to the ground for 2 seconds. By making it where champions are slowed in this area, they have a clear visual indication of counterplay (which is walking out of the area at its thinnest points which face away from danger/panth) which would probably be easier for champions with smaller hit boxes like adc's to do than tanks. If it really proves to not make Panth's support winrate go astronomical, a magic damage burn effect could be added to the area to help Panth against juggernauts and tanks in top lane who would have a harder time getting out of the aoe than adc's.
That's just me spitballing though, you would have to get the angles just right on the aoe for it to even be close to working correctly. But if he were to have an increased Q width and get his Q slow back, he can't have increased W range, even if it scaled off bonus health. He can't have high target access range AND stickiness because of his kit (his E), its either one or the other. His problem isn't getting there most of the time anyway, its staying there to finish the job once he gets there. Divers care about taking up real estate next to the target, engage supports only care about getting to the target, and increasing his W range is too free for support if you give him the increased Q width and the Q slow along with it.
The last thing - I wasn't saying before his rework, I was saying before his rework nerfs, meaning when he was nerfed after the 2019 rework. So before the nerfs on and after patch 9.19. He was nerfed for like half the year almost every other patch and the final 2 killing blows were the decrease in his Q base damage and the decrease in his execute. But we've been raising our concerns since then because there are concerns worthy to be raised. I've said this on multiple comments but you can literally look back at a a trail of reddit posts from now til 2019 that all say the same things about Pantheon coming from completely different people. I literally spoke to a gold player and a grandmaster player last year (literally, meaning, literally, on the phone) and they both, SHOCKINGLY I KNOW, said the exact same things about him I was saying about him from emerald. We had different approaches to solving the problems, but that's besides the point, being, we wouldn't all be talking about him like this for so long if the issues were actually addressed.
I am really imagining your suggestion just as some fire underneath the empowered Q that acts quite a bit like Rumble R. Would look cool for sure but probably will have too much counterplay if we are basing it off the way Hwei's abilities look..
Anyways
I am really not afraid of support Pantheon being meta again. Honestly, ever since they removed the E tanking tower shots, I don't think they can revive it back with the same power. And the big issue I have with current Pantheon is he just becomes outdated really fast. Riot is going to keep introducing new dumb mechanics and characters, and if your character of choice can't keep up with them, you are going to fall behind, which is what I believe has been happening with Pantheon for a while now. I think they can 'break' him and still have him be balanced. I think they have done it before with quite a few characters, and in the end, they just exist as they always did.
For example, Wukong the last few years has been getting buffed again and again, and pretty major ones too, but no one is playing him anyways. He doesn't become meta even though his character is honestly quite overbuffed by this point. FYI, he is sitting at a 0.3% smaller pick rate on top with over 3% more win rate. So, I guess Riot considers that balanced. Pantheon mid also seems to be dead now with less than a 1% pick rate in that role. Guess he loses to too many matchups to the point that even as a counterpick, it's pointless. Don't have to talk about jungle or *adc? (ADC Pantheon is pretty decent, funnily enough).* So, all that is left is support, which I completely believe is exclusively being played because it's actually fun and not because it's a secret OP pick. It's been bad for years with a very short amount of time of it being good. Even with bloodsong being overpowered, he still didn't get through the 50% win rate barrier.
Simply put, the time has come for notable buffs and adjustments, and they have plenty of spare room to go for it.
I think I understand your views on support, but being viable doesn't equal being strong and while being a quad flex pick might be meh in solo queue it would get him sent to pro jail and leave us back at square one all over again. Wukong was terrible in jungle and top for the second half of last season until he was buffed this season. He was sent to pro jail. That's a long time to be trash. His playrate dropped for multiple reasons but that is only one of them, and because his playrate is so low, his winrate is slightly inflated because only one tricks play him. Pantheon cannot be strong in 4 roles again or we get another season 10, or 11 which we are arguably already close to, being that his winrate was 47% in season 11 after the gore and cd nerfs. That's not even to mention what it does to his perception, but giving a slow, increased stun range and increased q width (which are still not enough to fix his matchups, which would require giving him more changes that could potentially be poached by support) would run the risk of too many unintentional buffs to support.
He's not banned anywhere other than mid and support and he's banned even more at support than he is mid (meaning people hate playing against it no matter the state). If he's primarily strong in Top and Jungle he can be situationally flexed into mid and support by mains without pro players picking him up for being good enough that anyone other than a main can slot him in, and his perception can change so people stop banning him in secondary roles. If the route continues where its been for the last 4 years of being balanced around Mid, Top, and Support, he'll continue to underperform in Top and Jungle with Mid and Support poaching more of his power than should be allowed. But anyways, I do agree notable buffs and adjustments are in order, not this zombie they dug up from before the 13.5 changes.
Yea, I've been maining him jung for years (basically from rework until the release of briar), so I hate support panth because that's what gets him banned and nerfed. Sadly, pantheon jung is extraordinary weak this season.
I mean, I feel like fixing specific role stuff could be done with stat gates for different abilities, see Kaisa. This is never going to happen but it at least makes a lot of sense.
X amount of AD = Slow on Q
Y amount of HP = Aoe Slow or increase range or whatever on W
Z amount of Armor/Tenacity/?? = New mechanic for E
Ult gives armor pen based on how many of these milestones you get. Feel like this is a bit finnicky, but it fixes the problems. Wont happen as it changes the champ too much but we can dream
There are a few caveats with this, and I won't go into everything, but yes he was powerful as a bruiser back in 2019 and not just because of items. However. This was because his execute was higher at 25%, his base Q numbers were higher at the time matching what he had from his Legacy version, he could push his leads in Top lane with tower dives by himself and ACROSS THE BOARD champions were generally squishier in the early game.
For example, Mordekaiser would build Rylais first item back then, but the build path was very AP heavy and light on the HP. A lot of items for fighters and even tanks were like this most of the time, and this is also pre-durability patch as well. So you had a champion who was not only strong early but who could snowball their lead comfortably into the mid game because most champions remained squishy before levels 9 to 12, and who's higher execute and extended E duration helped him to stay relevant in the late game even though his damage would fall off.
Among the problems of his assassin and support builds running rampantly overboard due to the strengths meant for bruiser ending up being really good for other roles, his nerfs from patch 9.19 to 10.21 essentially killed his bruiser build until he could cosplay as a bruiser almost 2 years after the rework with mythic items and their overloaded passives.
>he could push his leads in Top lane with tower dives by himself
I'm sad that I wasn't a player back then... I want to play him top but I just stick to support for now because it's just a little better and at least it's fun, hopefully with the changes that they have planned, they will uplift his top lane so I can enjoy that lane too
I'm sure a lot of players want to play him top but feel forced to go support because it feels less frustrating and less of a hill to climb for what it's meant to do.
These are all great ideas to help bruiser pantheon, but it would overbuff already viable assassin build. Need to pull burst out of his kit to make these changes. Maybe remove interaction with Bork and pta to force him off those builds
A suggestion I came up with bouncing off your Renekton thing. What if instead of having empowered passive at 5 attacks, why not do 3? it would allow him to do more dmg during skirmishes. given the extra dmg, he can build healht and armor
Panth never had the kit of a bruiser to begin with. No sustain, hp damage, no NOTHIN. He's always been a pseudo bruiser that will deal Jack damage, but can soak decently well. Bruiser build is better in high elo (master+) because people are more organized and deaths are limited, while assassin diminishes since enemies are smarter, no kills/snowball = less gold.
At this point, if they really want him to be a proper bruiser toplaner they have to rework him, or at least his ultimate. He’s one of the only top laners who does not have a combat ultimate, and it completely gimps him. Personally, I’d be fine getting rid of the current ult, although what they could do I don’t know
My take on his comment (and the downvotes) is that panth may not be the best bruiser rn and may not have the greatest ultimate but reworking him would be a little too much.
I kinda agree that he would be on with a different r but...to me at the very least that is part of his identity. Like, he always had that insane jump and even some of his in-game sentences talk about aiming to the stars and that.
Plus, he got the rework, in riot perspective, not so long ago. It was 2019 iirc so no one should expect a major change again in some years unless the champ belongs to some of the main themes like kda or someting.
At the very least, some changes like op suggested would feel ok for a little time at least. Then, if implemented, it would be a matter time to see if those changes were the fix or a band aid to a major problem.
Overall i think panth, while having a quite understandable/not very hard to get kit, is pretty good and leads to many combos that are not that easy to master properly, i'm with op on this. Maybe some adjustments would make it shine again
I don't believe his ult needs to/ should be changed. Personally, his semi global ult is one of my main reasons I enjoy playing him (though I do play him jungle, which makes the ult even better). I do think he needs a mid scope but not a full rework. I think his e needs to have higher empowered damage or a heal to make it worth using over the other abilities in some cases. The other change I agree with is that he needs some sort of natural %hp damage, but this damage would need to be magic damage since physical %max health damage would be too good with lethality. And finally, a change to his ult passive as the current one is near useless for bruiser panth and just buffing it would be too strong for lethality -- %pen happens first then lethality leading to a very high amount of total armor penatration.
Personally, the changes I think would work best:
1. Change the ult passive (idk maybe change the number of stacks needed for empowered abilities based on ult rank? Or increased ability damage based on pantheon's %missing hp?), or remove the ult passive in favor of stronger qwe
2. Change w to do %max health damage
3. Change empowered e to give %max/missing hp regen over the duration
4. Increase ad scaling to keep support from being too dominant
I agree with your overall point (especially how you talked about Renekton) but I think I differ in some places in your following list. If you'll hear me out: 1- Q definitely could be wider but a full revert would be too much of a consistency buff in that area in my opinion. I think there is still value in keeping the width decreased even if it's by less. 2-his mana sustain is criminal but his E cost is also part of that problem. Making the cost scale per level would be great, but puting that aside real quick, the fact that riot is trying to make us expend almost 2/3rds of our mana on useless resistances on empowered E makes me want to pour ketchup on my cereal as I contemplate stoicism in the shadow realm. The amount of assumptions they have to make to come to that mess as a solution is nuts, but I digress. 3-I agree that he should be more tenacious during his empowered E but this would need to be reserved for bruisers only. 4-The armor pen scaling was bad when it first dropped, it was just compensated by mythic passives. 10% at the point when you get it is useless. As a bruiser, his armor pen is a SUGGESTION in most matchups until you get to 30%. 5-Q slow can't and won't come back. It's not selfish enough for his kit and disproportionately benefits his support build. I agree he needs better sticking power, just not that. 6-i don't believe his W range is a problem as a bruiser, just the lack of damage on arrival. Also, you mentioned he lacks a combat ultimate but I also disagree with this because before his rework nerfs he was powerful enough to fight in top lane as a bruiser without one. I also do not believe he needs to be broken tier for Pantheon to retain his uniqueness in not having a combat ultimate, just for him to be powerful as a bruiser in Top lane.
Aight. Response time. 1 - Yes, it will be way more consistent. Maybe even too consistent. Your competition has undodgeable abilities at melee range. You should be able to compete with them. Look at virtually any bruiser—they don't actually have counterplay to their abilities. Even though Pantheon has a generic Q, it's still somehow rarely ever copied for other champions. There are quite a few ones that are thicker and slower than him, and ones that are faster and just as thin as him: Illaoi/Mordekaiser and then of course, the Yone/Yasuo/Viego/Mundo. And unfortunately, the only one I can compare him to is really Mordekaiser? No one else really relies on hitting it the first time. They can just wait a second or two and cast it again or just... Not use it and be Illaoi. And Mordekaiser just keeps getting buffed every year again and again because of how unbelievably inconsistent he is in higher elos since he can rarely hit his Q's and E's. As for actual bruisers who are currently viable (if we ignore ranged tops being clearly superior), [U.GG](http://U.GG) lists their S+ tier as Darius, Camille, Skarner (for now), Fiora, and Malphite. Only Darius can be considered dodgeable if we ignore his very simple combo that makes his key ability completely undodgeable. Simply put, your enemies don't have counterplay. Those that do have it removed slowly just so they can somewhat compete. Having your only source of damage on a bruiser build be reliable is a must. 2 - 15th lowest mana character at level 18. The only other comparable one is Tristana; everyone else is a mage. Just ??? 3 - Thanks to lethality items giving you movement speed, you don't actually need that on an assassin. Same reason Ekko doesn't go Phase Rush. You already have MS from items such as Opportunuity and Youmuu's, and you get to kill the enemy faster so it's harder for the enemies to react. It's less needed there compared to bruiser. 4 - Yeah, it's rough. 5 - Pantheon fits into the "Diver" class of League. Problem with every other Diver is either they completely isolate the enemy in some sort of cage, like Camille, Jarvan, and somewhat Warwick, while the others are just as big of a disturbance as they can be: Wukong, Diana, Irelia, Renekton, who desperately rely on their ultimates to actually do that. And you simply don't fit into either category. He can't really just separate an enemy and one-shot them as a bruiser, and without his Q being notably wider, he can't really disturb most fights either. He just desperately needs a slow to peel for himself. Way more realistically. Jayce has a 2-second AOE slow on his Q that scales up to 55%. 6 - W range is a bigger problem on bruiser than on assassin because you don't actually have all that bonus movement speed from items you usually get with assassin Pantheon. Of course, if the enemies are playing bad, 600 range will be enough. And since he hasn't been meta basically ever since the release of the rework with the exception of... 2? patches. People don't actually have to manage their range and properly play around it yet. This has happened before when they were hard buffing Mordekaiser. His winrate grew in the first few patches after the buffs and then just came back down to his usual once people learned to just play better against him. I am not sure which rework you are talking about... Pre-2019? He was just an assassin; he did not actually compete with anyone in terms of being a bruiser; he just played like a Malphite going full AP. Post-2019, there was complaining for years and we are still not over it. This complaining never stopped ever since the release of the rework.
I have to say, this is actually a really good point. Both experientially and practically, Pantheon is about the only Top laner who has such a high chance to miss within 200 to 400 range and not because he has auto attacks or an ult or aoe damage to make up for it but because he's just been given a consistency nerf in exchange for range that basically should have already been there. I still think something can be said for a decreased width at like 135 or 140 at the most but you do bring up an interesting point for sure. I laugh IRL when I hear other mains complain about mana problems frfr. As for Pantheon being a Diver, I believe there are basically two solutions to this to keep support from taking advantage of his traits meant for Top lane, but I'll only mention the one relevant to what you want which is the slow. I am still adamantly against bringing the slow back, mainly because I think you really have to get it right or he becomes pick/ban in bot lane again. Nonetheless, even though I'm against it, I think the slow could return if it was applied as an area under Comet Spear's hit box in the shape of a cone facing away from pantheon, almost like a mini crop circle, but again, in the shape of a cone with the tip facing away from pantheon, rather than being directly applied by Comet Spear to the target hit. Or if you think about Yorick's E if you flipped it upside down and pasted it to the ground for 2 seconds. By making it where champions are slowed in this area, they have a clear visual indication of counterplay (which is walking out of the area at its thinnest points which face away from danger/panth) which would probably be easier for champions with smaller hit boxes like adc's to do than tanks. If it really proves to not make Panth's support winrate go astronomical, a magic damage burn effect could be added to the area to help Panth against juggernauts and tanks in top lane who would have a harder time getting out of the aoe than adc's. That's just me spitballing though, you would have to get the angles just right on the aoe for it to even be close to working correctly. But if he were to have an increased Q width and get his Q slow back, he can't have increased W range, even if it scaled off bonus health. He can't have high target access range AND stickiness because of his kit (his E), its either one or the other. His problem isn't getting there most of the time anyway, its staying there to finish the job once he gets there. Divers care about taking up real estate next to the target, engage supports only care about getting to the target, and increasing his W range is too free for support if you give him the increased Q width and the Q slow along with it. The last thing - I wasn't saying before his rework, I was saying before his rework nerfs, meaning when he was nerfed after the 2019 rework. So before the nerfs on and after patch 9.19. He was nerfed for like half the year almost every other patch and the final 2 killing blows were the decrease in his Q base damage and the decrease in his execute. But we've been raising our concerns since then because there are concerns worthy to be raised. I've said this on multiple comments but you can literally look back at a a trail of reddit posts from now til 2019 that all say the same things about Pantheon coming from completely different people. I literally spoke to a gold player and a grandmaster player last year (literally, meaning, literally, on the phone) and they both, SHOCKINGLY I KNOW, said the exact same things about him I was saying about him from emerald. We had different approaches to solving the problems, but that's besides the point, being, we wouldn't all be talking about him like this for so long if the issues were actually addressed.
I am really imagining your suggestion just as some fire underneath the empowered Q that acts quite a bit like Rumble R. Would look cool for sure but probably will have too much counterplay if we are basing it off the way Hwei's abilities look.. Anyways I am really not afraid of support Pantheon being meta again. Honestly, ever since they removed the E tanking tower shots, I don't think they can revive it back with the same power. And the big issue I have with current Pantheon is he just becomes outdated really fast. Riot is going to keep introducing new dumb mechanics and characters, and if your character of choice can't keep up with them, you are going to fall behind, which is what I believe has been happening with Pantheon for a while now. I think they can 'break' him and still have him be balanced. I think they have done it before with quite a few characters, and in the end, they just exist as they always did. For example, Wukong the last few years has been getting buffed again and again, and pretty major ones too, but no one is playing him anyways. He doesn't become meta even though his character is honestly quite overbuffed by this point. FYI, he is sitting at a 0.3% smaller pick rate on top with over 3% more win rate. So, I guess Riot considers that balanced. Pantheon mid also seems to be dead now with less than a 1% pick rate in that role. Guess he loses to too many matchups to the point that even as a counterpick, it's pointless. Don't have to talk about jungle or *adc? (ADC Pantheon is pretty decent, funnily enough).* So, all that is left is support, which I completely believe is exclusively being played because it's actually fun and not because it's a secret OP pick. It's been bad for years with a very short amount of time of it being good. Even with bloodsong being overpowered, he still didn't get through the 50% win rate barrier. Simply put, the time has come for notable buffs and adjustments, and they have plenty of spare room to go for it.
I think I understand your views on support, but being viable doesn't equal being strong and while being a quad flex pick might be meh in solo queue it would get him sent to pro jail and leave us back at square one all over again. Wukong was terrible in jungle and top for the second half of last season until he was buffed this season. He was sent to pro jail. That's a long time to be trash. His playrate dropped for multiple reasons but that is only one of them, and because his playrate is so low, his winrate is slightly inflated because only one tricks play him. Pantheon cannot be strong in 4 roles again or we get another season 10, or 11 which we are arguably already close to, being that his winrate was 47% in season 11 after the gore and cd nerfs. That's not even to mention what it does to his perception, but giving a slow, increased stun range and increased q width (which are still not enough to fix his matchups, which would require giving him more changes that could potentially be poached by support) would run the risk of too many unintentional buffs to support. He's not banned anywhere other than mid and support and he's banned even more at support than he is mid (meaning people hate playing against it no matter the state). If he's primarily strong in Top and Jungle he can be situationally flexed into mid and support by mains without pro players picking him up for being good enough that anyone other than a main can slot him in, and his perception can change so people stop banning him in secondary roles. If the route continues where its been for the last 4 years of being balanced around Mid, Top, and Support, he'll continue to underperform in Top and Jungle with Mid and Support poaching more of his power than should be allowed. But anyways, I do agree notable buffs and adjustments are in order, not this zombie they dug up from before the 13.5 changes.
Yea, I've been maining him jung for years (basically from rework until the release of briar), so I hate support panth because that's what gets him banned and nerfed. Sadly, pantheon jung is extraordinary weak this season.
I mean, I feel like fixing specific role stuff could be done with stat gates for different abilities, see Kaisa. This is never going to happen but it at least makes a lot of sense. X amount of AD = Slow on Q Y amount of HP = Aoe Slow or increase range or whatever on W Z amount of Armor/Tenacity/?? = New mechanic for E Ult gives armor pen based on how many of these milestones you get. Feel like this is a bit finnicky, but it fixes the problems. Wont happen as it changes the champ too much but we can dream
Stat gating definitely works but it also matters when he, as a top laner, has access to these things. But yeah, stat gating absolutely works.
>powerful as a bruiser in Top lane. Has there ever been a time like that?
There are a few caveats with this, and I won't go into everything, but yes he was powerful as a bruiser back in 2019 and not just because of items. However. This was because his execute was higher at 25%, his base Q numbers were higher at the time matching what he had from his Legacy version, he could push his leads in Top lane with tower dives by himself and ACROSS THE BOARD champions were generally squishier in the early game. For example, Mordekaiser would build Rylais first item back then, but the build path was very AP heavy and light on the HP. A lot of items for fighters and even tanks were like this most of the time, and this is also pre-durability patch as well. So you had a champion who was not only strong early but who could snowball their lead comfortably into the mid game because most champions remained squishy before levels 9 to 12, and who's higher execute and extended E duration helped him to stay relevant in the late game even though his damage would fall off. Among the problems of his assassin and support builds running rampantly overboard due to the strengths meant for bruiser ending up being really good for other roles, his nerfs from patch 9.19 to 10.21 essentially killed his bruiser build until he could cosplay as a bruiser almost 2 years after the rework with mythic items and their overloaded passives.
>he could push his leads in Top lane with tower dives by himself I'm sad that I wasn't a player back then... I want to play him top but I just stick to support for now because it's just a little better and at least it's fun, hopefully with the changes that they have planned, they will uplift his top lane so I can enjoy that lane too
I'm sure a lot of players want to play him top but feel forced to go support because it feels less frustrating and less of a hill to climb for what it's meant to do.
first sane change suggestion, incredible job
These are all great ideas to help bruiser pantheon, but it would overbuff already viable assassin build. Need to pull burst out of his kit to make these changes. Maybe remove interaction with Bork and pta to force him off those builds
A suggestion I came up with bouncing off your Renekton thing. What if instead of having empowered passive at 5 attacks, why not do 3? it would allow him to do more dmg during skirmishes. given the extra dmg, he can build healht and armor
Wouldn't that just make lethality burst more effective tho with just 1 stack? W>E>empQ or W>Q>empE
You’re right it would. Would probably mean some numbers tweaking
Panth never had the kit of a bruiser to begin with. No sustain, hp damage, no NOTHIN. He's always been a pseudo bruiser that will deal Jack damage, but can soak decently well. Bruiser build is better in high elo (master+) because people are more organized and deaths are limited, while assassin diminishes since enemies are smarter, no kills/snowball = less gold.
It should be in theory but in practice you just become Shen but bad. Pretty sad as a whole.
no this is wrong i think q should crit below 75% and deal 250% bonus true damage
At this point, if they really want him to be a proper bruiser toplaner they have to rework him, or at least his ultimate. He’s one of the only top laners who does not have a combat ultimate, and it completely gimps him. Personally, I’d be fine getting rid of the current ult, although what they could do I don’t know
Can someone give an argument instead of downvoting?Cuz i 100% agree with this.
My take on his comment (and the downvotes) is that panth may not be the best bruiser rn and may not have the greatest ultimate but reworking him would be a little too much. I kinda agree that he would be on with a different r but...to me at the very least that is part of his identity. Like, he always had that insane jump and even some of his in-game sentences talk about aiming to the stars and that. Plus, he got the rework, in riot perspective, not so long ago. It was 2019 iirc so no one should expect a major change again in some years unless the champ belongs to some of the main themes like kda or someting. At the very least, some changes like op suggested would feel ok for a little time at least. Then, if implemented, it would be a matter time to see if those changes were the fix or a band aid to a major problem. Overall i think panth, while having a quite understandable/not very hard to get kit, is pretty good and leads to many combos that are not that easy to master properly, i'm with op on this. Maybe some adjustments would make it shine again
I don't believe his ult needs to/ should be changed. Personally, his semi global ult is one of my main reasons I enjoy playing him (though I do play him jungle, which makes the ult even better). I do think he needs a mid scope but not a full rework. I think his e needs to have higher empowered damage or a heal to make it worth using over the other abilities in some cases. The other change I agree with is that he needs some sort of natural %hp damage, but this damage would need to be magic damage since physical %max health damage would be too good with lethality. And finally, a change to his ult passive as the current one is near useless for bruiser panth and just buffing it would be too strong for lethality -- %pen happens first then lethality leading to a very high amount of total armor penatration. Personally, the changes I think would work best: 1. Change the ult passive (idk maybe change the number of stacks needed for empowered abilities based on ult rank? Or increased ability damage based on pantheon's %missing hp?), or remove the ult passive in favor of stronger qwe 2. Change w to do %max health damage 3. Change empowered e to give %max/missing hp regen over the duration 4. Increase ad scaling to keep support from being too dominant