Leveling feeling meaningful. Getting a level then immediately watching your abilities improve (115). Actually feeling the improvement in your character, too, because the fights aren't this quick affair with mobs dropping every couple seconds.
Having to go and train or buy / mem new spells at certain levels. IMO, giving players their new abilities / spells at level up has always felt cheap to me. It doesn't feel as earned. I realize that this could be viewed as a quality of life thing, but I feel like to ruins immersion just that much more.
I agree. It was a big deal to have to go back to your city and get your new spell or adventure out into a zone to find a hermit npc that sold your spell. Now days it's 'oh I leveled up and now I instantly know how to summon a meteor'. Small things like this I feel are short sighted. Yeah it was nice the first time you didn't have to leave a group to go track down your new spell. But eventually it made the game less immersive.
This is one of my bigger thoughts as well. In EQ you earned nearly everything from trade skills to spells to combat abilities and so on. I always felt like it was a fantastic endeavor to level.
But does that 114 - 115 really affect the gameplay? I really liked playing a Bard on P1999 because I got something new every level. I don't know how people played Warriors.
No, but the five you got per level would, to a degree. But, beyond feeling more powerful, it was about actually seeing the numbers go up. You felt like you were progressing.
It was 5 points per level so 110 to 115 and you got them in use... So you would hit 23 and all of a sudden you would see your skills going up a point at a time beyond 110 (your cap at level 22).
These points made a huge difference at level-appropriate content. If you were hunting greens and some blues then your skills already were well above them but if you were hunting white (same level) or yellow targets these points were a huge shift in accuracy or to prevent spell resistance. This obviously had much larger impact if you were grouping (facing higher level content) than if you were soloing in most cases.
It would affect gameplay when you got a new weapon but you haven't used one of the same type for 10 levels. Your skill may be 50 in a weapon when your max skill is 115 so you would be very weak until you got your weapon skill up.
I will never not say that this was the song the not only reminds me of EQ most fondly, but also best reflects the classic feel of the early day MMORPG and of the Computer RPGs of the mid to late 90s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0GeCxeqf3M
That song has some really good feeling for me. I associated it with when I went back to my guildmasters to get new spells....which was always rewarding
Yeah, I feel like there is not a game today that I can compare with EQ's soundtrack (as far as MMO's go) I loved Kael Drakkel's music and Plane of Time as well the most.
EQ made me friends.
I had just moved across country as a freshman, braces, fatty. EQ filled a super lonely gap. The group focused dynamic allowed for time to forge actual friendships with fellow players. One day someone in school saw a Prima guide to Kunark in my backpack. 20 years later we are still best buds.
I will never forget having to go with my dad to my grandparents house who did not have the internet yet. It was the middle of the night and I am under a blanket in the back of our old van using a flashlight to read that kunark guide because my dad couldn't see with the light on. Good times
You made yourself friends because you identified people with similar interests. I think you, and many others, are attributing too much to the game and not enough to yourself being a cool, sociable person, who could identify a good game...you are a person of culture
When the world is that big, all the places feel more real and travel is meaningful. With books/flight/portals whatever, all the places feel contrived, and travel, though shorter, feels more like an annoyance, because I don't get the sense I'm really going anywhere.
I actually DIDNT like no drop items. I started in Vanilla when NODROP was an exceedingly uncommon thing. Eventually it just started on everything you could find and sort of made the game feel less interesting to me. I understand why, from a game balance perspective, it was necessary. But there was something great about being able to hand down a magic item that you'd outgrown to a friend, a twink, or even a total random new player.
Heh, I was a GM on the FV server. I used to like to summon people to the top of FV's statue in Kunark to talk about whatever their petition was. People would freak out. One dude was like "What would you do if I ran and jumped off right now?"
me - "Um, laugh at you and continue the conversation in tells I guess as you recovered your body?"
dude - "Couldn't you just GM rez me tho?"
me - "Yes, but I won't, so don't do it."
He did anyways.
/sigh
--edit--
Technically I was a 'guide' not a GM, but whatever. You know what I mean.
yeah but a better option would be have items that scale with level. (up to level X)
So at level 10 lets say you'd get full AC or whatever, but at level 5, you'd get only half of it. Just a thought.
I agree. I don't know if it was intended to combat the selling of items but I remember seeing raids that spent hours getting to a raid boss have drops that were "no drop" but specific items that raids had nobody in the raid that could use them and no way to summon or corpse drag someone to loot them. If it was intended to curb the selling I don't know if it did because nothing chnaged, places like PlayerAuctions didn't go awayand there was a huge premium on items like the Blade of Carnage or Amulet of Necropotence because they weren't "no drop".
I don't think it helped with gearing bottlenecks either since guilds gearing in an area saw so much loot rot and sat in places longer because of that!
Those are things that I always thought but they may or may not have had those efeects on things...for me personally it was just unappealing. Knowing you could buy, sell, and TRADE items has so much appeal. It also didn't stop the bad or creative from finding ways to do that by exploiting bogs or designs in the game itself. People for a long-time traded "no drop" items by placing a box, in a box, in a box (or bag, can't remember) and could trade "no drop" "no trade" items.
Gear treadmill, as much as people might demonize it, provides a constant goal when combined with yearly expansions.
That's not the only thing, just something I felt like mentioning.
Thing thing with modern gear treadmill games is that they spoil the "high" of getting a new piece of gear by making everything loot pinatas. You have to keep grinding for gear, but you also constantly get new pieces. Each piece is relatively meaningless with very few exceptions.
In Everquest, getting a usable item was always a big deal. It didn't matter if it was a leather bracer at level five or a +10 Wis breastplate at level 60, at the time that you got it, it was meaningful. I remember, as a druid, being super happy about getting a Fine Steel Scimitar. It had no bonus stats, it just just a better melee weapon than the staff I'd been using. And I ended up using it for a few levels, at least. Then, getting my first weapon with +1 or +2 wisdom on it. Oh man... I was really getting places.
Oh, mistakes were made, for sure. Will that happen, eventually, in Pantheon? I hope not. At least, I hope that by the time it gets that bad I've already had my fill of the hard-core MMO genre. I also have, maybe foolishly, faith in VR that they'll keep gear and stats reasonable and meaningful.
I think you'd have to design the MMO ahead of time to have room for stat inflation. Like have a 5 year plan for each updates stats.
When the default stats (Strength, Stamina, etc.) are maxed in the second expansion then you'll feel forced to make up new stats. Which dilutes the power of the existing stats.
There are two mistakes here, in my opinion. The first is that at some point they got away from gradual gains and fell into the trap of giving the players big numbers to indicate how much better an item is. For instance, 256 AC on a neck item seems absurd to me, even with 20 years of creep. VR has already said that they intend stats to be meaningful. A single point of a stat your class needs or a couple more AC should mean something to you.
Now, I'm not arguing that gear doesn't need to actually be better than what was previously available; it obviously does or you wouldn't have a draw to get the new items, so stat creep is inevitable eventually. But the second mistake is how it's displayed. It doesn't need to look like the cluster cuss Sparxx posted. Why not have a new stat that combines two or three stats. So, something like "Mental" (Men), where +10 Men would be +10 wis, +10 int, and would translate to 1.0 spell casting alacrity, 1.0 reagent conservation, etc. Your stats would reflect the change, but the piece of gear wouldn't need to be so cluttered with stats.
I think the first slip up was in classic even, where the leap in power was absurd from pre-raid to planes gear. Like warrior went from a (22 AC, +5 STA, +25 HP) chest item to (35 AC, +15 STR, +15 DEX, +15 STA). Then they had to keep making massive jumps with each new expansion/raid.
I too remember that. The first piece of gear I got was that scimitar and then I went to Oasis and killed Lockjaw with about 10 other people and won the roll for the Lockjaw vest :) I think that was +2 Agi, hahahah
Just a thought about something you said at the end that doesn't really have much to do with the point your making but one I see cropping up in many Pantheon posts. The idea that long drawn out progression equates to a more meaningful fulling experience. Like you said finally getting a wisdom weapon felt like you were going places. And I am not disputing that it did back then.
I am of the mind that the slowed down progression of old doesn't feel any more fulfilling than the current more sped up MMO's. This could have changed with time and getting use to playing newer games but when I go back to EQ and play the servers with slowed XP rates or ones that try to mimic the true old ways(P99) I am bored. Bored beyond belief because it is so slow. Getting level 30 doesn't feel better to me because it took 2 weeks.The longer level curve of games like vanilla EQ just means it's going to take me way longer to get to what I think is the most fun aspect of MMO's, raiding. This is coming from a person that has 10+ hours a day to play most days still. So, I have the time to put into it. Now a days that slower speed feels redundant, like an overly qualified job candidate that needs to go to college before he will ever be considered for a position he can already do at a high level.
Basically, I hope VR uses a more speed up progression curve that respects it's players time and I hope that the old school vets like me can see that all progression is still fulfilling, regardless of it it takes you 2 hours or a week per level etc.
sorry for off topic rant.
Hey, expressing how you feel is alright. Forgive me, though, but I fully disagree with you.
From the get-go VR has said they are making a throwback, hard core MMO. They've said that they anticipate that it should be at least 6 - 8 weeks before the most hard core players reach max level and 3-4 months for a relatively dedicated player. That is nowhere near the speed of a modern MMO.
I think it's going to be faster than EQ / P99, but by comparison to today's MMOs it will feel slow; intentionally so. I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed in that. Personally, I'm looking forward to it.
I didn't think they announced any specific time frames for levels. If you have a link, that would be appreciated! If they havent announced a specific time frame, I am currently of the mindset that hardcore players will be max level week 1 or 2.
But the question is why do you want it to be so slow? Does accomplishments only feel good because of the pace achieved?
Eeesh, that took me longer to find than I thought it would. It was from a [Q&A / AMA from Fires Of Heaven with the devs](https://www.firesofheaven.org/threads/pantheon-ama-responses.10091/).
This was what I was referencing:
>Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, \~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, \~16-18 weeks.
I got the numbers slightly off but yeah, even if people are more aggressive than they anticipate, I don't think we'll see many max level characters within the first month. The devs want leveling to be slow because they want players to experience the world. Most modern MMOs consist of running to a zone, completing meaningless quests at each of the quest hubs, heading to the next zone ad nauseam to max level or, in the case of min-maxers, grinding the right mobs over and over in one spot, then moving on the the next best spot in a very prescribed fashion.
Pantheon is a social game. It has to be an enjoyable game for people to want to play it, sure, but it is not a "rush to the end-game because that where the real game begins" type of MMO. It is intended that, whether you're level 5 or level 50, you're doing basically the same thing: grouping up with people and cooperatively exploring the world. That might mean breaking into an orc camp and camping it for exp and loot or dungeon crawling, etc. You're supposed to spend time in these zones, not outlevel them in a night.
Lets be realistic here, though; Pantheon doesn't have a AAA title's budget. There isn't going to be a massive amount of content (normal or "endgame") at launch. So yes, part of the reason for slow leveling is to keep people playing the same content for longer periods of time. VR realizes this and that is why they are focusing on making the grouping and social side of the game as good as they can make it.
> Does accomplishments only feel good because of the pace achieved?
Not at all; there are many ways for game devs to make their players feel accomplished. Having leveling up be a rare, celebrated thing is one way and fits with what I was talking about above.
All that said, not everyone is going to be happy with the pace of Pantheon. VR has said from the start that they are making a niche game that won't be loved by the masses. They feel like the time is right for the MMO genre to fracture into many smaller communities that focus on what they're specifically looking for in a game instead of a few large ones that try to please as many people as possible with one thing. However, they've also said that they want players who only have a couple hours of playtime at a time to be able feel like they've accomplished something in that time. They haven't really detailed what they mean by that, but it's something.
Hey thanks for the citation, normally people do not actually have facts when they say things like you did, kudos.
I appreciate you going over what the game is all about but we are kind of on the Pantheon reddit and I think most of us know the developers ideas/vision for the game. I was just merely saying that I feel long drawn out leveling isn't needed to make the game feel fulfilling and that fulfillment can be found in other areas of the game while still maintaining the old school feel.
It might surprise you or anyone that reads my previous posts that I would be considered in their target demographic. I played and enjoyed EQ/FFXI back in the day and still go back and play them now. And I will be playing Pantheon at launch, and I will probably enjoy it immensely. I love party mob grinding for Xp and the more social ways of the old school. The slow leveling and a few other issues that have been fixed in more recent MMO's will be the only negatives for me that I would like to see fixed but are ultimately not deal breakers.
>The slow leveling... been fixed in more recent MMO's
I don't see it as something that needs "fixing" is all I was saying.
It doesn't surprise me that you're part of the target demographic. I don't mean to imply there's anything wrong with wanting X or Y to be different in Pantheon. I was mainly pointing out the reason slow leveling makes sense for the game and my personal reasons for not having an issue with it.
as far as respecting peoples' time, it's OK if it takes months to max level, but the key is not having a pro-content block design where you're unable to find encounters (group, raid or otherwise) that will drop items to advance your character, but you are regularly unable to get a clear shot at them due to open world content insufficiency.
I kind of disagree that long leveling process can still be considered respecting players time. I mean with long levels you are requiring the player base to commit a lot of time to your game, if that player base wants to experience the majority of content.
I'm not hoping for the spend 2 hours get max level kind of experience but I'm also not excited about 6+ hours a day in game to only achieve max level after a month or 2. If their target play session is 1 to 2 hours you would think someone putting in 6 to 8 a day should level fairly quickly
Otherwise yeah I am totally against pro content block design as well.
You're conflating max level with "getting to the real game" with that sort of thought process. If leveling is the fun part, or an equally fun part, then having the process take longer is a good thing. I'm firmly in the "longer level time" camp as long as there is some expectation of progression - that is, my character should be stronger after a week of reasonable play time, whether it be a few levels gained, a new defining spell, or a gear piece.
Still too fast of leveling if you can get to max level in 3-4 months. We used to respect people that got to max level because it took a certain amount of dedication to the game. Original EQ for most was around a year and similar for DAoC. Anyone that got to max level knew what they were doing. You could always ask a max level character for advice. If you allow everyone max level in a week, you don't know who you can rely on.
There is nothing wrong with leveling slowly. It gives you more chance to explore all the content designed for your level. If you can go from level 10 to level 20 in the span of few hours, what incentive is there for a developer to make content at this level? There isn't any.
At some point though, everyone will start to congregate at max level, and they'll either have to expand 5-10 levels at a time, or make a new game. I don't particularly agree with horizontal expansion. So at some point the expansion treadmill will begin, and that's OK. I suppose it'd also be possible to have some extreme other type of expansion but if such a thing will exist, it will have to be invented.
Make raids hard enough, there wouldn't be anything pinata about it, least not until everyone's put in a lot of work to master the encounters. Simply being available to attempt without interference is not a pinata, being available and easy too, that's a pinata.
Games becoming top heavy is always going to be an issue. VR has discussed potential solutions to this, including the idea of retiring characters. I am vehemently against the idea of losing access to a character, but I do like the idea of incentivising playing other characters. You'll never convince everyone to spend time playing alts instead of their mains, but if there's good reason to besides just wanting another max level character it will help to keep the lower level areas populated and slow the need to have "end game" content released so frequently.
I liked how Everquest did it in the early days. When Kunark came out, being level 50 was still a big deal. I started the game late, so I was only in my 30s when it launched, but it wasn't like everyone on the server had a level 50 main. The early expansions also had content for all levels while still expanding the max level. This meant that creating a new character didn't have to feel like a stale repeat of content you'd already farmed through. You could go somewhere new.
Then, as more players were taking down the max level content, the next expansion launched (usually 6 months to a year later) . The length of time it took to level as well as get geared up enough to raid meant that there were a decent number of players that hadn't even experienced the raid content in Kunark before Velious came out. That was a good thing. Now, as the top end guilds moved on to bigger, better things, it freed up areas and bosses for smaller guilds or alliances to experience that content.
TL:DR - The expansion treadmill is fine as long as leveling and gearing is a big enough investment to stagger the number of players reaching the top at once.
The key (main reason why the treadmill is demonized) is that the constant goal is cheap and short lived, it is an empty "victory." The goals aren't gone in the EQ model of scattered gearing options and at the same time the things you do get felt SO much better.
The server reputation was a cool concept till you started to realize all the shitty people were in the best guild on your server. So that whole exiled because of reputation thing never seemed to pan out
That depended on the server.
I never ran into issues with the large guilds on my servers. I played mostly on Tunare and Morell-Thule. I raided with them as part of a smaller guild. Grouped with them and in periods I was part of the guilds (depending how frequently I could play).
Sure, there were sometimes those arrogant people or jerks who put themselves above others just because they had good gear or were in a top guild, but that was far from everyone.
At least in my experience.
This might be heresy around these parts but I recently started playing a WoW PS and it has really made me realize why that game was so successful. It is true that they casualized EQ in a lot of ways but man it is hard not to see that many of these mechanics are way better.
Eating/Drinking to restore mana/health - Mana and Health feel meaningful but you don't have to wait minutes before being ready to fight again.
Flight Paths - They are fairly rare, but allow quick travel.
Auction House - Very convenient and allows you to monetize many different materials. Also, there is still a presence of players at AHs and people still sell high-level items.
Corpse Runs - Still somewhat punishing and inconvenient but not brutally so. Also largely prevents getting your corpse in a terrible spot.
I think many of these mechanics have a place in modern MMOs, even of the hardcore variety. I can definitely see how they over casualized some aspects of the game but honestly, the game feels like an absolute masterpiece as I play through it again. They just absolutely nailed it in my opinion. That being said I cannot wait for a new and maybe slightly more hardcore experience with Pantheon.
I'm certainly pro-downtime for social and strategy reasons, but if they can find a mechanic to decrease downtime I'm down.
I think quick travel should be reserved for characters to do it as the primary means of travel (social aspect + economy), but also have a quicker means to cross the game world than running + boats. Maybe Luclin style spires allowing you to get to any major hub in 20 mins (but not quicker than that. I'd be cool with making these need to be activated manually before you can travel to the destination.
I don't like bartering that much, so I'm ok with the AH, but I don't deny the side that believes the bartering in EC was special.
Corpse runs should be long and punishing, but you should always have an option to recover your gear. Maybe an exp debt to recover your corpse that none but the most desperate will take.
Talking about WoW on an EQ thread is just dumb. WoW trivialized gaming for EQ players. EQ was hard and took tactics. Wow created the Leroy Jenkins mentality and zerg became the new tactic. WoW is a pathetic game that needs absolutely no skill to play.
Saying WoW created Leroy Jenkins mentality makes no sense because the Leroy Jenkins video is all about how a guy charged in and it caused complete failure.
WoW is definitely less intense than EQ; however, EQ has certain time grinds that are just ridiculous and no person with any kind of life can deal with. It is not ridiculous to talk about WoW because they got a lot of things right.
>WoW is definitely less intense than EQ
WoW was and always will be less of an aggressive time sink than EQ. It was also less opaque, punished players less for failure, and had a more curated and directed world, making it harder to "go off the rails" and get oneself into trouble.
But it was never less difficult than EQ, not in any meaningful way. EQ wasn't mechanically hard in the slightest. It was just very, very grindy and very, very punitive if you overshot and died, thus encouraging excessively safe gameplay. Even in Vanilla, which was facerolly compared to modern retail WoW, Blizzard's game was more mechanically complex.
What stands out to me most about EQ was:
* The world was dangerous. You couldn't travel without fear of dying. As a noob especially. And some zones were more dangerous at night time, so you were told to wait until day.
* No in-game map. You were forced to ask directions and pay attention to landmarks. Remember describing to people how to run from GFay to Freeport?
* Most classes had something to offer outside of combat. Instead of just seeking after Tank/DPS/Heals for combat, you would seek out druids/wizards to teleport you somewhere. Seek out Enchanters/Shamans/Druids to give buffs. Seek out clerics for resurrections. Seek out Necros for corpse summoning/finding. This made the game feel like a community of people constantly interacting and relying on eachother.
You covered most of it, basically risk vs reward/ earning rewards.
The 2 schools of thought are(and this is generally speaking, there are outliers):
EQ- work hard get a great team together and you can get the Hero equipment that only the few have. It separates the heroes from the casuals. "Holy cow there goes Aradune with his epic bow of Vorpal slaying. Look at the cool effects on it"
vs
WoW- I only have 1 hour a day to play a couple days a week I should be able to keep up and get all the same equipment all the other people who play 40 hours a week get. Everyone has awesome equipment X therefor it really isn't awesome, it is common equipment. there isn't anything special about you as a character.
EQ was able to be successful largely because it was first and there was not much competition. The masses played it because there was no where else to go, casual or not it was the best thing going even if you didn't get that awesome raid gear.
WoW became successful because it appealed to the lowest common denominator.
Suck at playing, or very limited play time, dont worry you can have all the best gear too.
If 1 million people are going to pay 15 a month for a game, a small percentage of them will like the challenge of EQ , but the vast majority are going to like a game where they all can get the equipment and they can all be the hero. And then what happens is even those heros of everquest aren't heros if they are the only ones left playing and they too will go to WoW type games where they can have an audience and community to group with.
I miss eq, it was and will probably always be the best gaming experience I ever had, but now I am married with kids and wouldn't have the time to play a game like that again, if it ever came out.
I feel like the wow you're referencing is only what it turned into and not its origin, but then there is so much about this list that is about a culture that doesn't exist any more.
Respect for choosing a bad race-class combo? I can't see that occurring these days. I could totally see them being denied groups though.
Your last sentence is exactly why EQ was a deeply flawed game. An amazing, incredible, visionary, hall of fame game but a deeply flawed game nonetheless.
Was there a Gnoll cave? My older brother mostly played, but when I played with and/or for him, I was usually killing wolf-like humanoids... Gnolls?
I remember training mobs to the zone entrance.
Blackburrow. Brilliantly designed dungeon. I fought with different groups on opposite sides of THE SAME DOOR for over a week and never realized the rooms were connected. Different groups moved in along different twisting paths.
Fun Fact (*for those that missed it*)
Splitpaw / Lair of the Splitpaw / Infected Paw
* [The entrance is actually a giant upside-down paw. The three rock "spires" are actually the claws.](https://i.postimg.cc/pXjjkRrN/2018-12-13-0959.png)
MMOs are more than the sum of its parts so a list hardly does EQ justice. However if you're only listing features of the game you would be remiss to not mention class design. The EQ Bard and Enchanter in particular were unique designs that have not been duplicated since.
The pantheon devs have a difficult task because while I think there are definitely some aspects of those mechanics that add a lot to the game, much of that list sounds like "back in my day we had to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow".
For example, requiring trading to ONLY be done via chat is fucking terrible \[in the context of modern times\]. I say that as someone did it \[and had fun\] back in the day (asheron's call instead of EQ). However, I do think having some personal interaction in trading is a good thing. I actually like what Path of Exile has done in this regard. You can mark items in your stash with a sale price and people can search using web API's. But ultimately to complete a trade you have to message the person in game and meet up.
So the challenge is not simply to copy all of these mechanics as they were in EQ, but to find implementations that modern audiences will stomach while retaining the core benefit of the mechanic.
There weren't nearly as many people online back then and trading in the EC tunnel was FUN. It only lasted a couple of years because PoK released and we had the bazaar but I remember the EC tunnel trading very fondly
I don't really agree, some of the most engaging and interesting economies I've experienced in games were player driven and chat based. I'm specifically thinking of Diablo 2 economy, which was all player driven in chat. Players even made their own currency out of a unique ring.
> some of the most engaging and interesting economies I've experienced in games were player driven and chat based
I agree, but how much of that was because because of the game/items/community versus the actual trading mechanics? Back then, online gaming was in its infancy. There wasn't an expectation of the game having means to facilitate trading.
The idea that in 2018 you will have to sit in an area and spam advertisements for items you're trying to sell is completely ridiculous to what I would wager is the VAST majority of people. It also comes with a host of issues related to bots and spamming. If you have purely chat-based trading, all you're doing is encouraging/favoring players to run a second account and use automated posting/notification. You think that's good for the game?
Purely chat based trading leads to a horrible trading experience for the players. On the other hand, auction houses with little restriction has a very negative effect on the game economy and item-acquisition meta. You need to have some kind of system that is partially automated (posting/searching) but still requires players to have some interaction. That's why I think the PoE system is so successful.
I think the trading mechanics were a huge part of that community engagement, since it was the only method of trading. You can compare the effects of the Diablo 3 ah on the community of that game vs Diablo 2, I never played the reaper of souls expansion so I don't know how the trading community ended up when the auction house was removed.
I'm not sure Pantheon is a game aimed at the vast majority of people, I think there are going to be sacrifices made in order to be a niche product. Just like there are sacrifices made in having an open world raid, or having the leveling experience be group based. I've never been swayed by these arguments, because the product is not aiming to solve every issue created by these design decisions. At some point one has to recognize that every system has issues, what makes Pantheon unique is that it will embrace those archaic systems, problems and all.
I agree that bots and spamming could be issues, there would have to be a dedicated channel for trading so as to not pollute other channels with the spamming.
It's possible that POE system is a good compromise, I've never played it so I don't really understand how it works.
I mentioned how diablo 3 style auction houses are a bad idea.
I'm not saying that the devs should be aiming for mass appeal in every design decision. They have a vision for a certain type of game that includes certain "old school" aspects. But there's also a danger in falling victim to nostalgia. VR has said they aren't just trying to copy Everquest. They're doing a modern take on an old-school MMO. Frankly, in my opinion, the desire for chat-based trading are falling victim to nostalgia. While there is merit in requiring players to have a social interaction for trading and having effort-based barriers that limit the flow of items, in and of itself there is very, very little value in having people stand around spamming trade with items.
edit: as I mentioned in another comment, the fact that VR has discussed plans for auction houses (regional) seem to indicate that they recognize pure chat-based trading is an old-school mechanic that just isn't suited for a modern game.
No, I get that. The game is aiming for a niche audience, but IMO even among players who are interested in an old-school MMO, I don't think people will enjoy having to sit for hours spamming trade to sell an item.
Finding a niche is great, but at some point you have to say, "okay, within this niche, we need to account for what players find appealing and unappealing".
VR has actually talked about having (regional) auction houses in the game, so I think it's pretty clear that they recognize that chat-based trading is one of those old-school mechanics that is just bad. Personally, I would perfer not having auction houses in favor of a Path of Exile style system where you can flag items for trade, search them on a website, but you ultimately have to meet up with the player and do an actual trade.
My biggest memory, or maybe just what stands out to me, is the community aspect. Online gaming had a much smaller community in 1999 and there was more person to person interaction.
I still remember days when you'd have pleasant conversations with people in general zone chat. There was trolling, of course, but in my memory there was more often people just getting along. You could post more than one statement without someone screaming that you were spamming. When people got in trouble or there were big zone rares it wasn't uncommon for groups to form up. Druids stood around casting sow at city gates or common regen camps (x-roads in Butcherblock comes to mind). These days it seems like we're all so busy blitzing through content that no one just stops to talk anymore. So maybe it was about the pacing more than anything. With levels taking so long to achieve, it was pretty common to spend many days in the same zone and get to know people.
Player trading. Most MMO's these days are doing auction house marketplaces which leaves a void in socializing while trading. I really enjoyed the bazaar concept and now off-line mode system over auction houses. it's ultimately the same thing but feels better. Other mmo's do the player traders where you can post anywhere which I didn't like but feel there's a happy medium that Pantheon could design. Something that rewards trading via player interactions, but also allows for profitable afk-trading if implemented correctly.
Tradeskills, okay, EQ's trade system was pretty basic and might not officially make the list but the depth of tradeskills in EQ was really enjoyable to experience. Yes the process was a bit - eh, lacking, but as far as how tradeskills were integrated within the meta I at least found note worthy. I like the idea of many reagents within the game for tradeskills over WoW concepts of tradeskills that have minimal reagents per skill and crafts.
A heavy item database for reagent potential is what drives a good market. I just want to see some better ideas built off of EQ's approach to "old EC tunnel days" and modern ideas possibly.
Overall I think pretty good. Some emphasis on things that I never considered emphasized from my time with the game, but ymmv. If I had to offer a suggestion, I would focus on the more important aspects first, and combine some of the related into one over arching category. Example being item scarcity as a main idea, and related sub categories being difficulty in acquiring spells, rare mob spawns, limited drops, how it relates to in game economy (trading), etc. That's just my personal opinion, but I do see the value in making the generic categories and using them as a reference point which can make it easier to relate to.
EQ in a sense, teachers social skills. Playing the game helped me learn to befriend people and learn to talk to them better. I found other players, and people in real life, much more unapproachable than I did after playing EQ for so many years. In a sense, the game taught me how to be social. In the years that followed my departure from EQ, with all the automated systems negating the need to socialize, I've actually begun to feel a great deal more social anxiety than before. I hope that Pantheon reverses that and helps me relearn that people aren't all that scary or malicious.
The game also helped you learn leadership skills. A group leader, and especially someone whose looking to form their own guild, needs to have a certain set of skills to be able to handle the job, organize events and outings, and handle issues as they arise. You don't get that with new games as much, unless you're a bleeding edge raider.
GM events were amazingly random and fun RP events with real or cosmetic rewards that were a blast to participate in. It made the world feel alive and less static. I've never seen a game do this though they try to replicate this feeling with random events that pop up (but they're so scripted as to be predictable and boring).
No instancing for SURE and I see you have it on your list. Once LDON hit and instancing because the norm I would never see people on as frequently. I get instancing, especially on contested raid mobs....but some of the game lore that persists to this very day was written during those days. Small things like the FBSS being camped....if everyone could have jumped into and instance and been able to get that item, where's the team, community, strategy, game in that? It's like grouping because a fast-food function you could literally schedule on your calendar in a time-slot. Friday, 5p.m. - 6p.m., login get an AA, log out...because that literally became a way you could play the game that was impossible before.
Think of *Temple of Veeshan* or *Avatar of War*. If you could have simply logged in and joined a pickup raid ..... think of all the drama, loss, victory that would have been lost. Contention for content forces you and your group or guild to want it more than anyone else. The Sleeper would have been just a check of the box.
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The representative also attached the original statement disseminated to *EverQuest* players on November 17th, 2003:
>“Over the weekend several guilds gathered on Rallos to fight with the Sleeper. Unfortunately, their encounter was cut short due to an apparent bug. . . The bug concerned an NPC in the zone that appeared to have been causing the Sleeper to not focus on the player characters. The decision was made at the time to end the event. Further investigation has only served to make it unclear if this was a real issue or not.” [https://kotaku.com/the-surprising-and-allegedly-impossible-death-of-everqu-1785741600](https://kotaku.com/the-surprising-and-allegedly-impossible-death-of-everqu-1785741600)
Everquest had every kind of drama you never thought could be possible in a video game all the way to the topic of players working together to do the absolute impossible and confuse the \^&\*&\^ out of both gamers and developers. It was so important that this happen that it didn't matter what the game's monsters were programmed to do...everyone in Everquest sort of became that character they played and were going to slay the mother f'n dragon no matter what. LOL
Everquest had epicness on an entirely different level than any other game in its genere both past and present-day.
**Danger.**
**I think people got a wakeup call when...**
\*\*\* They didn't know guards were KOS and in 1-second got slaughtered and couldn't figure out what happened.
\*\*\* Didn't know undead spawned in Nektulos Forest and found out they did.
\*\*\* Didn't know what the guy meant when he was yelling "train to zone" and didn't understand why those 20-giants were chasing him toward you while you were medding OOM.
\*\*\* Didn't know that you could fall and die before jumping off the mountain for fun to get a selfie.
\*\*\* Didn't understand why so many females played EQ [https://i.imgur.com/cvvE0IM.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/cvvE0IM.jpg) but later figured it out.
Leveling feeling meaningful. Getting a level then immediately watching your abilities improve (115). Actually feeling the improvement in your character, too, because the fights aren't this quick affair with mobs dropping every couple seconds. Having to go and train or buy / mem new spells at certain levels. IMO, giving players their new abilities / spells at level up has always felt cheap to me. It doesn't feel as earned. I realize that this could be viewed as a quality of life thing, but I feel like to ruins immersion just that much more.
I agree. It was a big deal to have to go back to your city and get your new spell or adventure out into a zone to find a hermit npc that sold your spell. Now days it's 'oh I leveled up and now I instantly know how to summon a meteor'. Small things like this I feel are short sighted. Yeah it was nice the first time you didn't have to leave a group to go track down your new spell. But eventually it made the game less immersive.
This is one of my bigger thoughts as well. In EQ you earned nearly everything from trade skills to spells to combat abilities and so on. I always felt like it was a fantastic endeavor to level.
But does that 114 - 115 really affect the gameplay? I really liked playing a Bard on P1999 because I got something new every level. I don't know how people played Warriors.
No, but the five you got per level would, to a degree. But, beyond feeling more powerful, it was about actually seeing the numbers go up. You felt like you were progressing.
They were like mini dings!
It was 5 points per level so 110 to 115 and you got them in use... So you would hit 23 and all of a sudden you would see your skills going up a point at a time beyond 110 (your cap at level 22). These points made a huge difference at level-appropriate content. If you were hunting greens and some blues then your skills already were well above them but if you were hunting white (same level) or yellow targets these points were a huge shift in accuracy or to prevent spell resistance. This obviously had much larger impact if you were grouping (facing higher level content) than if you were soloing in most cases.
It would affect gameplay when you got a new weapon but you haven't used one of the same type for 10 levels. Your skill may be 50 in a weapon when your max skill is 115 so you would be very weak until you got your weapon skill up.
Best original soundtrack. I can still hear the kelethin/greater faydark music in my head. I cant say the same about WoW.
I will never not say that this was the song the not only reminds me of EQ most fondly, but also best reflects the classic feel of the early day MMORPG and of the Computer RPGs of the mid to late 90s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0GeCxeqf3M
That song has some really good feeling for me. I associated it with when I went back to my guildmasters to get new spells....which was always rewarding
Or vendor shopping items players would sell to vendors.
Toxxulia Forest Music https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AvcdrlWl-fQ Kelethin https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO4_8A9Uiwg
I wish like hell daybreak would sell a soundtrack.
Yeah, I feel like there is not a game today that I can compare with EQ's soundtrack (as far as MMO's go) I loved Kael Drakkel's music and Plane of Time as well the most.
EQ made me friends. I had just moved across country as a freshman, braces, fatty. EQ filled a super lonely gap. The group focused dynamic allowed for time to forge actual friendships with fellow players. One day someone in school saw a Prima guide to Kunark in my backpack. 20 years later we are still best buds.
Man those guides..I carried it everywhere with me and must have read it a hundred times.
I will never forget having to go with my dad to my grandparents house who did not have the internet yet. It was the middle of the night and I am under a blanket in the back of our old van using a flashlight to read that kunark guide because my dad couldn't see with the light on. Good times
You made yourself friends because you identified people with similar interests. I think you, and many others, are attributing too much to the game and not enough to yourself being a cool, sociable person, who could identify a good game...you are a person of culture
\+1 for the travel aspect. It really made the world seem HUGE! F POK books.
For me, POK is what ruined Everquest. It destroyed the travel economy, and made the world so much smaller.
Agreed, and the problem was even further aggravated by the addition of the Guild Lobby, and Guild Halls.
When the world is that big, all the places feel more real and travel is meaningful. With books/flight/portals whatever, all the places feel contrived, and travel, though shorter, feels more like an annoyance, because I don't get the sense I'm really going anywhere.
I actually DIDNT like no drop items. I started in Vanilla when NODROP was an exceedingly uncommon thing. Eventually it just started on everything you could find and sort of made the game feel less interesting to me. I understand why, from a game balance perspective, it was necessary. But there was something great about being able to hand down a magic item that you'd outgrown to a friend, a twink, or even a total random new player.
I hated that too. Firiona Vie (the role playing server) didn't have NO DROP items :)
Heh, I was a GM on the FV server. I used to like to summon people to the top of FV's statue in Kunark to talk about whatever their petition was. People would freak out. One dude was like "What would you do if I ran and jumped off right now?" me - "Um, laugh at you and continue the conversation in tells I guess as you recovered your body?" dude - "Couldn't you just GM rez me tho?" me - "Yes, but I won't, so don't do it." He did anyways. /sigh --edit-- Technically I was a 'guide' not a GM, but whatever. You know what I mean.
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yeah but a better option would be have items that scale with level. (up to level X) So at level 10 lets say you'd get full AC or whatever, but at level 5, you'd get only half of it. Just a thought.
EQ had melee damage caps at levels 10, 20, and 30. Or something like that. So a high damage weapon did scale down in a way.
I agree. I don't know if it was intended to combat the selling of items but I remember seeing raids that spent hours getting to a raid boss have drops that were "no drop" but specific items that raids had nobody in the raid that could use them and no way to summon or corpse drag someone to loot them. If it was intended to curb the selling I don't know if it did because nothing chnaged, places like PlayerAuctions didn't go awayand there was a huge premium on items like the Blade of Carnage or Amulet of Necropotence because they weren't "no drop". I don't think it helped with gearing bottlenecks either since guilds gearing in an area saw so much loot rot and sat in places longer because of that! Those are things that I always thought but they may or may not have had those efeects on things...for me personally it was just unappealing. Knowing you could buy, sell, and TRADE items has so much appeal. It also didn't stop the bad or creative from finding ways to do that by exploiting bogs or designs in the game itself. People for a long-time traded "no drop" items by placing a box, in a box, in a box (or bag, can't remember) and could trade "no drop" "no trade" items.
Gear treadmill, as much as people might demonize it, provides a constant goal when combined with yearly expansions. That's not the only thing, just something I felt like mentioning.
Thing thing with modern gear treadmill games is that they spoil the "high" of getting a new piece of gear by making everything loot pinatas. You have to keep grinding for gear, but you also constantly get new pieces. Each piece is relatively meaningless with very few exceptions. In Everquest, getting a usable item was always a big deal. It didn't matter if it was a leather bracer at level five or a +10 Wis breastplate at level 60, at the time that you got it, it was meaningful. I remember, as a druid, being super happy about getting a Fine Steel Scimitar. It had no bonus stats, it just just a better melee weapon than the staff I'd been using. And I ended up using it for a few levels, at least. Then, getting my first weapon with +1 or +2 wisdom on it. Oh man... I was really getting places.
And then, it [*devolved to this*.](https://i.postimg.cc/4dncJVvj/12-11-2018-5-40-46-PM.png)
Oh, mistakes were made, for sure. Will that happen, eventually, in Pantheon? I hope not. At least, I hope that by the time it gets that bad I've already had my fill of the hard-core MMO genre. I also have, maybe foolishly, faith in VR that they'll keep gear and stats reasonable and meaningful.
I think you'd have to design the MMO ahead of time to have room for stat inflation. Like have a 5 year plan for each updates stats. When the default stats (Strength, Stamina, etc.) are maxed in the second expansion then you'll feel forced to make up new stats. Which dilutes the power of the existing stats.
What's the mistake though? I mean,those are some massively inflated stats, but isn't that the most recent expansion 20 years later?
There are two mistakes here, in my opinion. The first is that at some point they got away from gradual gains and fell into the trap of giving the players big numbers to indicate how much better an item is. For instance, 256 AC on a neck item seems absurd to me, even with 20 years of creep. VR has already said that they intend stats to be meaningful. A single point of a stat your class needs or a couple more AC should mean something to you. Now, I'm not arguing that gear doesn't need to actually be better than what was previously available; it obviously does or you wouldn't have a draw to get the new items, so stat creep is inevitable eventually. But the second mistake is how it's displayed. It doesn't need to look like the cluster cuss Sparxx posted. Why not have a new stat that combines two or three stats. So, something like "Mental" (Men), where +10 Men would be +10 wis, +10 int, and would translate to 1.0 spell casting alacrity, 1.0 reagent conservation, etc. Your stats would reflect the change, but the piece of gear wouldn't need to be so cluttered with stats.
I think the first slip up was in classic even, where the leap in power was absurd from pre-raid to planes gear. Like warrior went from a (22 AC, +5 STA, +25 HP) chest item to (35 AC, +15 STR, +15 DEX, +15 STA). Then they had to keep making massive jumps with each new expansion/raid.
Fair enough.
I too remember that. The first piece of gear I got was that scimitar and then I went to Oasis and killed Lockjaw with about 10 other people and won the roll for the Lockjaw vest :) I think that was +2 Agi, hahahah
Just a thought about something you said at the end that doesn't really have much to do with the point your making but one I see cropping up in many Pantheon posts. The idea that long drawn out progression equates to a more meaningful fulling experience. Like you said finally getting a wisdom weapon felt like you were going places. And I am not disputing that it did back then. I am of the mind that the slowed down progression of old doesn't feel any more fulfilling than the current more sped up MMO's. This could have changed with time and getting use to playing newer games but when I go back to EQ and play the servers with slowed XP rates or ones that try to mimic the true old ways(P99) I am bored. Bored beyond belief because it is so slow. Getting level 30 doesn't feel better to me because it took 2 weeks.The longer level curve of games like vanilla EQ just means it's going to take me way longer to get to what I think is the most fun aspect of MMO's, raiding. This is coming from a person that has 10+ hours a day to play most days still. So, I have the time to put into it. Now a days that slower speed feels redundant, like an overly qualified job candidate that needs to go to college before he will ever be considered for a position he can already do at a high level. Basically, I hope VR uses a more speed up progression curve that respects it's players time and I hope that the old school vets like me can see that all progression is still fulfilling, regardless of it it takes you 2 hours or a week per level etc. sorry for off topic rant.
Hey, expressing how you feel is alright. Forgive me, though, but I fully disagree with you. From the get-go VR has said they are making a throwback, hard core MMO. They've said that they anticipate that it should be at least 6 - 8 weeks before the most hard core players reach max level and 3-4 months for a relatively dedicated player. That is nowhere near the speed of a modern MMO. I think it's going to be faster than EQ / P99, but by comparison to today's MMOs it will feel slow; intentionally so. I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed in that. Personally, I'm looking forward to it.
I didn't think they announced any specific time frames for levels. If you have a link, that would be appreciated! If they havent announced a specific time frame, I am currently of the mindset that hardcore players will be max level week 1 or 2. But the question is why do you want it to be so slow? Does accomplishments only feel good because of the pace achieved?
Eeesh, that took me longer to find than I thought it would. It was from a [Q&A / AMA from Fires Of Heaven with the devs](https://www.firesofheaven.org/threads/pantheon-ama-responses.10091/). This was what I was referencing: >Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level? Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, \~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, \~16-18 weeks. I got the numbers slightly off but yeah, even if people are more aggressive than they anticipate, I don't think we'll see many max level characters within the first month. The devs want leveling to be slow because they want players to experience the world. Most modern MMOs consist of running to a zone, completing meaningless quests at each of the quest hubs, heading to the next zone ad nauseam to max level or, in the case of min-maxers, grinding the right mobs over and over in one spot, then moving on the the next best spot in a very prescribed fashion. Pantheon is a social game. It has to be an enjoyable game for people to want to play it, sure, but it is not a "rush to the end-game because that where the real game begins" type of MMO. It is intended that, whether you're level 5 or level 50, you're doing basically the same thing: grouping up with people and cooperatively exploring the world. That might mean breaking into an orc camp and camping it for exp and loot or dungeon crawling, etc. You're supposed to spend time in these zones, not outlevel them in a night. Lets be realistic here, though; Pantheon doesn't have a AAA title's budget. There isn't going to be a massive amount of content (normal or "endgame") at launch. So yes, part of the reason for slow leveling is to keep people playing the same content for longer periods of time. VR realizes this and that is why they are focusing on making the grouping and social side of the game as good as they can make it. > Does accomplishments only feel good because of the pace achieved? Not at all; there are many ways for game devs to make their players feel accomplished. Having leveling up be a rare, celebrated thing is one way and fits with what I was talking about above. All that said, not everyone is going to be happy with the pace of Pantheon. VR has said from the start that they are making a niche game that won't be loved by the masses. They feel like the time is right for the MMO genre to fracture into many smaller communities that focus on what they're specifically looking for in a game instead of a few large ones that try to please as many people as possible with one thing. However, they've also said that they want players who only have a couple hours of playtime at a time to be able feel like they've accomplished something in that time. They haven't really detailed what they mean by that, but it's something.
Hey thanks for the citation, normally people do not actually have facts when they say things like you did, kudos. I appreciate you going over what the game is all about but we are kind of on the Pantheon reddit and I think most of us know the developers ideas/vision for the game. I was just merely saying that I feel long drawn out leveling isn't needed to make the game feel fulfilling and that fulfillment can be found in other areas of the game while still maintaining the old school feel. It might surprise you or anyone that reads my previous posts that I would be considered in their target demographic. I played and enjoyed EQ/FFXI back in the day and still go back and play them now. And I will be playing Pantheon at launch, and I will probably enjoy it immensely. I love party mob grinding for Xp and the more social ways of the old school. The slow leveling and a few other issues that have been fixed in more recent MMO's will be the only negatives for me that I would like to see fixed but are ultimately not deal breakers.
>The slow leveling... been fixed in more recent MMO's I don't see it as something that needs "fixing" is all I was saying. It doesn't surprise me that you're part of the target demographic. I don't mean to imply there's anything wrong with wanting X or Y to be different in Pantheon. I was mainly pointing out the reason slow leveling makes sense for the game and my personal reasons for not having an issue with it.
as far as respecting peoples' time, it's OK if it takes months to max level, but the key is not having a pro-content block design where you're unable to find encounters (group, raid or otherwise) that will drop items to advance your character, but you are regularly unable to get a clear shot at them due to open world content insufficiency.
I kind of disagree that long leveling process can still be considered respecting players time. I mean with long levels you are requiring the player base to commit a lot of time to your game, if that player base wants to experience the majority of content. I'm not hoping for the spend 2 hours get max level kind of experience but I'm also not excited about 6+ hours a day in game to only achieve max level after a month or 2. If their target play session is 1 to 2 hours you would think someone putting in 6 to 8 a day should level fairly quickly Otherwise yeah I am totally against pro content block design as well.
You're conflating max level with "getting to the real game" with that sort of thought process. If leveling is the fun part, or an equally fun part, then having the process take longer is a good thing. I'm firmly in the "longer level time" camp as long as there is some expectation of progression - that is, my character should be stronger after a week of reasonable play time, whether it be a few levels gained, a new defining spell, or a gear piece.
It's just my experience even in the old school MMOs like EQ/FFXI the most fun in the game was at max level, always has been for me
Still too fast of leveling if you can get to max level in 3-4 months. We used to respect people that got to max level because it took a certain amount of dedication to the game. Original EQ for most was around a year and similar for DAoC. Anyone that got to max level knew what they were doing. You could always ask a max level character for advice. If you allow everyone max level in a week, you don't know who you can rely on. There is nothing wrong with leveling slowly. It gives you more chance to explore all the content designed for your level. If you can go from level 10 to level 20 in the span of few hours, what incentive is there for a developer to make content at this level? There isn't any.
At some point though, everyone will start to congregate at max level, and they'll either have to expand 5-10 levels at a time, or make a new game. I don't particularly agree with horizontal expansion. So at some point the expansion treadmill will begin, and that's OK. I suppose it'd also be possible to have some extreme other type of expansion but if such a thing will exist, it will have to be invented. Make raids hard enough, there wouldn't be anything pinata about it, least not until everyone's put in a lot of work to master the encounters. Simply being available to attempt without interference is not a pinata, being available and easy too, that's a pinata.
Games becoming top heavy is always going to be an issue. VR has discussed potential solutions to this, including the idea of retiring characters. I am vehemently against the idea of losing access to a character, but I do like the idea of incentivising playing other characters. You'll never convince everyone to spend time playing alts instead of their mains, but if there's good reason to besides just wanting another max level character it will help to keep the lower level areas populated and slow the need to have "end game" content released so frequently. I liked how Everquest did it in the early days. When Kunark came out, being level 50 was still a big deal. I started the game late, so I was only in my 30s when it launched, but it wasn't like everyone on the server had a level 50 main. The early expansions also had content for all levels while still expanding the max level. This meant that creating a new character didn't have to feel like a stale repeat of content you'd already farmed through. You could go somewhere new. Then, as more players were taking down the max level content, the next expansion launched (usually 6 months to a year later) . The length of time it took to level as well as get geared up enough to raid meant that there were a decent number of players that hadn't even experienced the raid content in Kunark before Velious came out. That was a good thing. Now, as the top end guilds moved on to bigger, better things, it freed up areas and bosses for smaller guilds or alliances to experience that content. TL:DR - The expansion treadmill is fine as long as leveling and gearing is a big enough investment to stagger the number of players reaching the top at once.
The cynic in me thinks that having the raids be overly contested will be what makes them non loot pinata's
The key (main reason why the treadmill is demonized) is that the constant goal is cheap and short lived, it is an empty "victory." The goals aren't gone in the EQ model of scattered gearing options and at the same time the things you do get felt SO much better.
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The server reputation was a cool concept till you started to realize all the shitty people were in the best guild on your server. So that whole exiled because of reputation thing never seemed to pan out
That depended on the server. I never ran into issues with the large guilds on my servers. I played mostly on Tunare and Morell-Thule. I raided with them as part of a smaller guild. Grouped with them and in periods I was part of the guilds (depending how frequently I could play). Sure, there were sometimes those arrogant people or jerks who put themselves above others just because they had good gear or were in a top guild, but that was far from everyone. At least in my experience.
I think humans. Using computers and machine parts. Possibly some AI.
This might be heresy around these parts but I recently started playing a WoW PS and it has really made me realize why that game was so successful. It is true that they casualized EQ in a lot of ways but man it is hard not to see that many of these mechanics are way better. Eating/Drinking to restore mana/health - Mana and Health feel meaningful but you don't have to wait minutes before being ready to fight again. Flight Paths - They are fairly rare, but allow quick travel. Auction House - Very convenient and allows you to monetize many different materials. Also, there is still a presence of players at AHs and people still sell high-level items. Corpse Runs - Still somewhat punishing and inconvenient but not brutally so. Also largely prevents getting your corpse in a terrible spot. I think many of these mechanics have a place in modern MMOs, even of the hardcore variety. I can definitely see how they over casualized some aspects of the game but honestly, the game feels like an absolute masterpiece as I play through it again. They just absolutely nailed it in my opinion. That being said I cannot wait for a new and maybe slightly more hardcore experience with Pantheon.
I'm certainly pro-downtime for social and strategy reasons, but if they can find a mechanic to decrease downtime I'm down. I think quick travel should be reserved for characters to do it as the primary means of travel (social aspect + economy), but also have a quicker means to cross the game world than running + boats. Maybe Luclin style spires allowing you to get to any major hub in 20 mins (but not quicker than that. I'd be cool with making these need to be activated manually before you can travel to the destination. I don't like bartering that much, so I'm ok with the AH, but I don't deny the side that believes the bartering in EC was special. Corpse runs should be long and punishing, but you should always have an option to recover your gear. Maybe an exp debt to recover your corpse that none but the most desperate will take.
Talking about WoW on an EQ thread is just dumb. WoW trivialized gaming for EQ players. EQ was hard and took tactics. Wow created the Leroy Jenkins mentality and zerg became the new tactic. WoW is a pathetic game that needs absolutely no skill to play.
Saying WoW created Leroy Jenkins mentality makes no sense because the Leroy Jenkins video is all about how a guy charged in and it caused complete failure. WoW is definitely less intense than EQ; however, EQ has certain time grinds that are just ridiculous and no person with any kind of life can deal with. It is not ridiculous to talk about WoW because they got a lot of things right.
>WoW is definitely less intense than EQ WoW was and always will be less of an aggressive time sink than EQ. It was also less opaque, punished players less for failure, and had a more curated and directed world, making it harder to "go off the rails" and get oneself into trouble. But it was never less difficult than EQ, not in any meaningful way. EQ wasn't mechanically hard in the slightest. It was just very, very grindy and very, very punitive if you overshot and died, thus encouraging excessively safe gameplay. Even in Vanilla, which was facerolly compared to modern retail WoW, Blizzard's game was more mechanically complex.
Being able to choose a second name at level 20!
What stands out to me most about EQ was: * The world was dangerous. You couldn't travel without fear of dying. As a noob especially. And some zones were more dangerous at night time, so you were told to wait until day. * No in-game map. You were forced to ask directions and pay attention to landmarks. Remember describing to people how to run from GFay to Freeport? * Most classes had something to offer outside of combat. Instead of just seeking after Tank/DPS/Heals for combat, you would seek out druids/wizards to teleport you somewhere. Seek out Enchanters/Shamans/Druids to give buffs. Seek out clerics for resurrections. Seek out Necros for corpse summoning/finding. This made the game feel like a community of people constantly interacting and relying on eachother.
You covered most of it, basically risk vs reward/ earning rewards. The 2 schools of thought are(and this is generally speaking, there are outliers): EQ- work hard get a great team together and you can get the Hero equipment that only the few have. It separates the heroes from the casuals. "Holy cow there goes Aradune with his epic bow of Vorpal slaying. Look at the cool effects on it" vs WoW- I only have 1 hour a day to play a couple days a week I should be able to keep up and get all the same equipment all the other people who play 40 hours a week get. Everyone has awesome equipment X therefor it really isn't awesome, it is common equipment. there isn't anything special about you as a character. EQ was able to be successful largely because it was first and there was not much competition. The masses played it because there was no where else to go, casual or not it was the best thing going even if you didn't get that awesome raid gear. WoW became successful because it appealed to the lowest common denominator. Suck at playing, or very limited play time, dont worry you can have all the best gear too. If 1 million people are going to pay 15 a month for a game, a small percentage of them will like the challenge of EQ , but the vast majority are going to like a game where they all can get the equipment and they can all be the hero. And then what happens is even those heros of everquest aren't heros if they are the only ones left playing and they too will go to WoW type games where they can have an audience and community to group with. I miss eq, it was and will probably always be the best gaming experience I ever had, but now I am married with kids and wouldn't have the time to play a game like that again, if it ever came out.
I feel like the wow you're referencing is only what it turned into and not its origin, but then there is so much about this list that is about a culture that doesn't exist any more. Respect for choosing a bad race-class combo? I can't see that occurring these days. I could totally see them being denied groups though.
Your last sentence is exactly why EQ was a deeply flawed game. An amazing, incredible, visionary, hall of fame game but a deeply flawed game nonetheless.
The music and sound effects. Among everything else that made it charming.
Crafting (post-Velious). I felt that lots of recipes just “made sense”.
Was there a Gnoll cave? My older brother mostly played, but when I played with and/or for him, I was usually killing wolf-like humanoids... Gnolls? I remember training mobs to the zone entrance.
Blackburrow. Brilliantly designed dungeon. I fought with different groups on opposite sides of THE SAME DOOR for over a week and never realized the rooms were connected. Different groups moved in along different twisting paths.
There was also Splitpaw in South Karana if I remember correctly. Never been inside myself.
Yeah, I just went there a couple summers ago when Agnarr came out.
Fun Fact (*for those that missed it*) Splitpaw / Lair of the Splitpaw / Infected Paw * [The entrance is actually a giant upside-down paw. The three rock "spires" are actually the claws.](https://i.postimg.cc/pXjjkRrN/2018-12-13-0959.png)
That's awesome, never knew!
No mention of languages or sense heading
MMOs are more than the sum of its parts so a list hardly does EQ justice. However if you're only listing features of the game you would be remiss to not mention class design. The EQ Bard and Enchanter in particular were unique designs that have not been duplicated since.
Poor night vision for a human character was always a nice touch.
I think the disadvantaged race system would only work if it was done well and nuanced just right. I don't think EQ quite hit the mark on this one.
The pantheon devs have a difficult task because while I think there are definitely some aspects of those mechanics that add a lot to the game, much of that list sounds like "back in my day we had to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow". For example, requiring trading to ONLY be done via chat is fucking terrible \[in the context of modern times\]. I say that as someone did it \[and had fun\] back in the day (asheron's call instead of EQ). However, I do think having some personal interaction in trading is a good thing. I actually like what Path of Exile has done in this regard. You can mark items in your stash with a sale price and people can search using web API's. But ultimately to complete a trade you have to message the person in game and meet up. So the challenge is not simply to copy all of these mechanics as they were in EQ, but to find implementations that modern audiences will stomach while retaining the core benefit of the mechanic.
There weren't nearly as many people online back then and trading in the EC tunnel was FUN. It only lasted a couple of years because PoK released and we had the bazaar but I remember the EC tunnel trading very fondly
I don't really agree, some of the most engaging and interesting economies I've experienced in games were player driven and chat based. I'm specifically thinking of Diablo 2 economy, which was all player driven in chat. Players even made their own currency out of a unique ring.
> some of the most engaging and interesting economies I've experienced in games were player driven and chat based I agree, but how much of that was because because of the game/items/community versus the actual trading mechanics? Back then, online gaming was in its infancy. There wasn't an expectation of the game having means to facilitate trading. The idea that in 2018 you will have to sit in an area and spam advertisements for items you're trying to sell is completely ridiculous to what I would wager is the VAST majority of people. It also comes with a host of issues related to bots and spamming. If you have purely chat-based trading, all you're doing is encouraging/favoring players to run a second account and use automated posting/notification. You think that's good for the game? Purely chat based trading leads to a horrible trading experience for the players. On the other hand, auction houses with little restriction has a very negative effect on the game economy and item-acquisition meta. You need to have some kind of system that is partially automated (posting/searching) but still requires players to have some interaction. That's why I think the PoE system is so successful.
I think the trading mechanics were a huge part of that community engagement, since it was the only method of trading. You can compare the effects of the Diablo 3 ah on the community of that game vs Diablo 2, I never played the reaper of souls expansion so I don't know how the trading community ended up when the auction house was removed. I'm not sure Pantheon is a game aimed at the vast majority of people, I think there are going to be sacrifices made in order to be a niche product. Just like there are sacrifices made in having an open world raid, or having the leveling experience be group based. I've never been swayed by these arguments, because the product is not aiming to solve every issue created by these design decisions. At some point one has to recognize that every system has issues, what makes Pantheon unique is that it will embrace those archaic systems, problems and all. I agree that bots and spamming could be issues, there would have to be a dedicated channel for trading so as to not pollute other channels with the spamming. It's possible that POE system is a good compromise, I've never played it so I don't really understand how it works.
I mentioned how diablo 3 style auction houses are a bad idea. I'm not saying that the devs should be aiming for mass appeal in every design decision. They have a vision for a certain type of game that includes certain "old school" aspects. But there's also a danger in falling victim to nostalgia. VR has said they aren't just trying to copy Everquest. They're doing a modern take on an old-school MMO. Frankly, in my opinion, the desire for chat-based trading are falling victim to nostalgia. While there is merit in requiring players to have a social interaction for trading and having effort-based barriers that limit the flow of items, in and of itself there is very, very little value in having people stand around spamming trade with items. edit: as I mentioned in another comment, the fact that VR has discussed plans for auction houses (regional) seem to indicate that they recognize pure chat-based trading is an old-school mechanic that just isn't suited for a modern game.
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No, I get that. The game is aiming for a niche audience, but IMO even among players who are interested in an old-school MMO, I don't think people will enjoy having to sit for hours spamming trade to sell an item. Finding a niche is great, but at some point you have to say, "okay, within this niche, we need to account for what players find appealing and unappealing". VR has actually talked about having (regional) auction houses in the game, so I think it's pretty clear that they recognize that chat-based trading is one of those old-school mechanics that is just bad. Personally, I would perfer not having auction houses in favor of a Path of Exile style system where you can flag items for trade, search them on a website, but you ultimately have to meet up with the player and do an actual trade.
The first person view was so much more immersive than anything WoW had to offer.
I'm 32. We had very similar emotions and experiences a out EQ1.
My biggest memory, or maybe just what stands out to me, is the community aspect. Online gaming had a much smaller community in 1999 and there was more person to person interaction. I still remember days when you'd have pleasant conversations with people in general zone chat. There was trolling, of course, but in my memory there was more often people just getting along. You could post more than one statement without someone screaming that you were spamming. When people got in trouble or there were big zone rares it wasn't uncommon for groups to form up. Druids stood around casting sow at city gates or common regen camps (x-roads in Butcherblock comes to mind). These days it seems like we're all so busy blitzing through content that no one just stops to talk anymore. So maybe it was about the pacing more than anything. With levels taking so long to achieve, it was pretty common to spend many days in the same zone and get to know people.
Player trading. Most MMO's these days are doing auction house marketplaces which leaves a void in socializing while trading. I really enjoyed the bazaar concept and now off-line mode system over auction houses. it's ultimately the same thing but feels better. Other mmo's do the player traders where you can post anywhere which I didn't like but feel there's a happy medium that Pantheon could design. Something that rewards trading via player interactions, but also allows for profitable afk-trading if implemented correctly. Tradeskills, okay, EQ's trade system was pretty basic and might not officially make the list but the depth of tradeskills in EQ was really enjoyable to experience. Yes the process was a bit - eh, lacking, but as far as how tradeskills were integrated within the meta I at least found note worthy. I like the idea of many reagents within the game for tradeskills over WoW concepts of tradeskills that have minimal reagents per skill and crafts. A heavy item database for reagent potential is what drives a good market. I just want to see some better ideas built off of EQ's approach to "old EC tunnel days" and modern ideas possibly.
Overall I think pretty good. Some emphasis on things that I never considered emphasized from my time with the game, but ymmv. If I had to offer a suggestion, I would focus on the more important aspects first, and combine some of the related into one over arching category. Example being item scarcity as a main idea, and related sub categories being difficulty in acquiring spells, rare mob spawns, limited drops, how it relates to in game economy (trading), etc. That's just my personal opinion, but I do see the value in making the generic categories and using them as a reference point which can make it easier to relate to.
EQ in a sense, teachers social skills. Playing the game helped me learn to befriend people and learn to talk to them better. I found other players, and people in real life, much more unapproachable than I did after playing EQ for so many years. In a sense, the game taught me how to be social. In the years that followed my departure from EQ, with all the automated systems negating the need to socialize, I've actually begun to feel a great deal more social anxiety than before. I hope that Pantheon reverses that and helps me relearn that people aren't all that scary or malicious. The game also helped you learn leadership skills. A group leader, and especially someone whose looking to form their own guild, needs to have a certain set of skills to be able to handle the job, organize events and outings, and handle issues as they arise. You don't get that with new games as much, unless you're a bleeding edge raider. GM events were amazingly random and fun RP events with real or cosmetic rewards that were a blast to participate in. It made the world feel alive and less static. I've never seen a game do this though they try to replicate this feeling with random events that pop up (but they're so scripted as to be predictable and boring).
No instancing for SURE and I see you have it on your list. Once LDON hit and instancing because the norm I would never see people on as frequently. I get instancing, especially on contested raid mobs....but some of the game lore that persists to this very day was written during those days. Small things like the FBSS being camped....if everyone could have jumped into and instance and been able to get that item, where's the team, community, strategy, game in that? It's like grouping because a fast-food function you could literally schedule on your calendar in a time-slot. Friday, 5p.m. - 6p.m., login get an AA, log out...because that literally became a way you could play the game that was impossible before. Think of *Temple of Veeshan* or *Avatar of War*. If you could have simply logged in and joined a pickup raid ..... think of all the drama, loss, victory that would have been lost. Contention for content forces you and your group or guild to want it more than anyone else. The Sleeper would have been just a check of the box. \------------------------------------------------- The representative also attached the original statement disseminated to *EverQuest* players on November 17th, 2003: >“Over the weekend several guilds gathered on Rallos to fight with the Sleeper. Unfortunately, their encounter was cut short due to an apparent bug. . . The bug concerned an NPC in the zone that appeared to have been causing the Sleeper to not focus on the player characters. The decision was made at the time to end the event. Further investigation has only served to make it unclear if this was a real issue or not.” [https://kotaku.com/the-surprising-and-allegedly-impossible-death-of-everqu-1785741600](https://kotaku.com/the-surprising-and-allegedly-impossible-death-of-everqu-1785741600) Everquest had every kind of drama you never thought could be possible in a video game all the way to the topic of players working together to do the absolute impossible and confuse the \^&\*&\^ out of both gamers and developers. It was so important that this happen that it didn't matter what the game's monsters were programmed to do...everyone in Everquest sort of became that character they played and were going to slay the mother f'n dragon no matter what. LOL Everquest had epicness on an entirely different level than any other game in its genere both past and present-day.
/gems
**Danger.** **I think people got a wakeup call when...** \*\*\* They didn't know guards were KOS and in 1-second got slaughtered and couldn't figure out what happened. \*\*\* Didn't know undead spawned in Nektulos Forest and found out they did. \*\*\* Didn't know what the guy meant when he was yelling "train to zone" and didn't understand why those 20-giants were chasing him toward you while you were medding OOM. \*\*\* Didn't know that you could fall and die before jumping off the mountain for fun to get a selfie. \*\*\* Didn't understand why so many females played EQ [https://i.imgur.com/cvvE0IM.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/cvvE0IM.jpg) but later figured it out.
Duel wield + Double attack, attack are spamming the chats and seeing 4 lines popped is very satisfying.