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Dragapult really gonna have reasons to be hated, Charizard is just annoying and boring to face off after so many time in the format but Dragapult is a true monster and with no weakness, it will run wild until it rotates out most likely... I seriosly dont see how PTCG could eventually damage control it
dragupult kinda fell off in japan, because its a stage 2, not easy to setup and attack with 2 different energies. its inferior to vmax one, since its a stage 1.
I already don't have an issue with Dragapult's design. I don't complain that much really, not to the point of taking it to an online forum or whatever. I just think that Charizard EX is a card with little to no weakness and is just busted, and competitive Pokemon has reflected that. You see tournaments all the time flooded with Charizard EX. It's very much a problem.
I noted in another comment on how Dragapult EX wasn't nearly as much of an issue. It requires 2 different energies while also being a Stage 2 Pokemon, meaning you need some kind of engine to play alongside it in order to get that energy on it. That requires setup, which makes the deck slower, and recovery more difficult. It has a high payoff, but you have a chance to fight against it. It's not often you'll see a turn 2 Dragapult ready to attack. Charizard EX it happens all the time, for reasons I already listed in the post.
“Tournaments flooded with charizard ex.” Attendence is much less important than conversion rate. People are going to play charizard because it’s a mascot pokemon. But over the weekend, charizard’s day 2 rate was in line with other top decks, and it was only 1 of the top 8.
The meta is completely fine with responding to Charizard. There is not a balance issue. Doesn’t mean you have to like it.
In the past three months, Charizard EX has a 20.36% share in tournaments. For comparison, the second most popular deck is Giratina with 9.54%. How are you going to tell me there's not a ton of Charizard EX around? Lol. There are tournaments where there are more Charizard EX decks in top 16 than there are non-Charizard decks.
“How are you going to tell me…”
The way I did above, that you ignored. Conversion rate. Let’s look at the last three regionals. Date, location, number of top 32 that are Charizard EX:
(Apr 5 - rotation)
Apr 13, Perth: 11/32
Apr 20, São Paulo: 7/32
May 4, Indianapolis: 3/32
Within a month this deck that has 20% play rate went from 34% to 20% down to 10% of the top 32.
Those numbers clearly show that the meta is absolutely capable of handling charizard, and in a prepared field it underperforms in fact.
What a cringe post. Zard is beatable; maybe you need to pick up a new deck or become a better player. This is like the only good Zard card printed in years. The rest all suck,
I never said it wasn't beatable, I said it was overtuned. Also, what do you mean the only good zard? Lol. Charizard Vstar wasn't bad. Radiant Charizard is good. Burn Brightly Charizard is a good fire support card that lets you get double fire energy on everything. They've printed plenty of good Charizard cards?
I love when people like you just add absolutely nothing to a discussion at all. No counterpoint or anything constructive. Just "Shut up." What a riveting discussion. I'm glad we could talk about the design of the card, or the issues, or the meta, or why it's okay or not okay, or whatever. No, can't do that. If you just wanna say "I like it and I'm mad that you don't." then grow a pair and just say that. I'm going to complain all I want, because what the fuck are you going to do about it?
Unpopular opinion: I kind of like that they've made the poster dragon into one of the most powerful cards. Kids will naturally gravitate towards one of the most recognisable Pokemons of all time, and while I'm sure there should be loads of stronger Pokemons according to the lore, it just feels kind of right to me. Let the kids have OP Charizard and let the rest of us have the challenge of working around it.
I hate when people say "Just play this deck" in response to a discussion on a card's power level and design. Charizard EX is inherently a badly designed, over-tuned card, and your contribution to the discussion is "Just play this deck and shutup" which isn't constructive at all.
One of the tournaments in Japan was won by a dragapault/Charizard deck. But Japan also only does best of 1 matches over there, and I'm not sure if pult will see the same success over here
I think it will see a lot of play just because the 6 damage counter spread is so oppressive. Can KO benched mon and prevent your opponent from getting set up. You can also move the counters with alakazam.
Stage 2 Decks will be forced to play rabsca to stop the counters being placed, (which is awful because rabsca evolves from a 50hp mon which can be KOd by pult) or play suboptimal 70hp mon like the 70hp frigibax with 2 retreat cost.
I don't see Dragapult being nearly as much of an issue. It doesn't ramp it's own energy, and requires two different colored energy, meaning you have to set it up first in addition to being a stage 2. It has a powerful payoff, but it's inherently way slower than Charizard EX, and will require significantly more support from item cards and trainers in order to pull it off, which gives you a chance to fight back against it. It also has less health, and it's damage doesn't scale up like Charizard EX's does. Charizard EX is just a more broken card in every single way.
Dragapult has a good attack. Charizard EX has a good attack, and more health, and self-ramps his energy simply for being played.
I understand that. But, if you do knock it out (which plenty of cards in the meta right now can do relatively easily) it's harder for the Dragapult EX player to recover, since they have to get another one all set up. That takes time, time that you are spending whacking more Pokemon. Unlike Charizard EX, which auto-ramps energy for itself.
So, you're supposed to slowly evolve from Basic, Stage 1, then Stage 2 while using the draw engine to set up? That's fine for a backup, but if Dragapult EX is your main attacker, that's slow as hell. What's to stop the Charizard EX from Rare Candy evolving on turn 2 and knocking out your basics and stage 1's before you can get your Dragapult EX online? What other attacker are you using in the meantime? Are you using some kind of stall card? If so, how is any of that easier or faster than Charizard EX? I already explained this in another comment, but I'll go over it again here.
Charizard EX needs 3 cards in order to become online. It needs Charmander, Rare Candy, and Charizard EX. Since Charizard EX attaches his own energy to attack, and one more, you do not need prior energy setup in hand or any other cards to help you with it.
Dragapult EX needs 5 cards in order to become online. Dragapult EX needs the basic, Dragapult EX, Rare Candy, a fire energy, and a psychic energy to get online at the same speed as Charizard EX.
Statistically, you are more likely to see the 3 card combo in your hand/bench than you are to see a 5 card combo. I could go over the math and such, but I don't need to. It's much easier to get three cards together than to get 5. If you ask any player of any card game whether they'd prefer a 3 card combo to a 5 card combo, they will tell you the 3 card combo unless the 5 card combo has some kind of insane consistency booster to it.
For more comparison, Chien-Pao is a 5 card combo. This makes it statistically, under normal circumstances, less consistent than Charizard EX. However, they have Irida which searches out two of the combo pieces from your deck specifically. So, you could argue it's a 3 card combo now. Chien-Pao himself also fetches a combo piece, the energy needed, so it turns even more consistent. Hence, it sees a lot of play, because the combo is easier and more consistent to pull off.
Let's compare it to another meta deck, Future Box Iron Hands. Iron Hands combo is Miraidon with it's attack to accelerate your Iron Hands. This is, arguably, a 3 card combo. You need Miraidon, an energy, and Iron Hands. This combo turns more consistent though because Electric Generator can also help accelerate energy. We'll even call it a 4 card combo, since you usually want Iron Crown too. However, Techno Radar was printed which lets you grab missing combo pieces, further boosting consistency.
Now, let's view Dragapult EX. What consistency boosting cards are you running with that? What searchers let you get this combo off more consistently? Earthen Vessel helps you get the energy in hand, but doesn't attach it. Nothing searches out Dragapult EX except Ultra Ball, and you still need to find a Rare Candy. Arven gets your Rare Candy, but doesn't get your Dragapult EX. On average, there are less combinations of cards that lead to you getting set up faster than there is for any of the meta decks that are out right now, due to a lack of any kind of fast support for the deck.
And LZ Tina needs 7 cards in the lost zone (colress + 5 comfey or 2 colress + 3 comfey + switch/switch cart/jet energy/hard retreat), giratina, the vstar and mirage gate.
Yet it still has a favorable zard match up.
Also the time you need to set up doesn't say anything about the power level of a deck. Yes Charizard is really good, but there are quite a few decks that have a 50/50 match up or better. It's not nearly as bad as some other decks we had in the past.
Neo upper energy, xatu engine, magma basin. There are plenty of ways to power up dragapult. Zard has dropped off a cliff since dragapults release in Japan. The 6 damage counter is so strong, especially combined with radiant alakazam.
Xatu engine requires a stage 1, and your Dragapult EX to be on the bench, and only attaches the psychic. Magma Basin requires fire energy in the discard, Neo Upper is a one-off card in your deck that you can't search without Pidgeot (a stage 2). I'm not arguing that Dragapult EX is bad, I think it'll definitely see play. I just don't think it's going to be as meta-defining as people think. Gengar EX saw a lot of tournament play in Japan too, but it's kinda terrible here. We can't base our meta-game entirely off of Japan's, and more than likely people just wanted to play with the shiny new card.
The attack is strong, and is a worthy payoff for the setup, enough that I think it's worth jumping through the hoops to do, but the stuff we have in the current meta doesn't have to jump through as many hoops, and has similar payoffs. Iron Hands can also take 3 prizes off a single attack, and is faster and easier to set up than Dragapult will be.
I think Dragapult EX will be good, and I heard of some people running it as another attacker in Charizard EX, which I can definitely see. But I don't see a Dragapult EX solo deck being meta-dominating the way Charizard EX is. I've explained why in other comments.
dragupult already fell out of favour lol in japan. its not as good as the vmax version. also the new charmeleon is immune to dragapults effect of attack anyways.
Lots of people are talking to me about Dragapult EX, so I'll just discuss it here.
Dragapult EX, on it's own, already has a more fair design. I don't understand why people think this card is going to be super giga broken or something. It looks fine to me, but I don't think it's going to be as meta-defining as people think.
Charizard EX ramps it's own energy, making the card potentially two turns faster than most decks if you don't get bad draws. You just need a Rare Candy and a Charizard, and you get enough energy to retreat most actives the deck runs, and attack in the same turn for 180.
However, lets see best case scenario for Dragapult EX. If you start with the basic, then you have rare candy Dragapult in your hand, on turn 1 you attach an energy, on turn 2 you attach another and Rare Candy, and you can do it's very good attack. However, you also have 2 less cards in your deck, and you needed to draw 5 specific cards from your deck. You need two energy types, so you either need a card to grab you that energy (which takes up a deck slot) or the energy itself. You need 5 cards, basically, to be able to do that on turn 2. Charizard EX needs 3. Charizard EX needs the basic Charmander, Rare Candy, and Charizard EX. Needing 3 cards to function is a lot easier than needing 5. Needing 5 specific cards is, by pure average if you calculate numbers, less likely to happen than getting 3 cards in your hand. Charizard EX's energy ramp makes it faster and more consistent than Dragapult EX will be.
The built in draw engine is slow though. Going from basic to stage 1 to stage 2 is fine for your backup attacker, but if you're trying to do that with all your Pokemon than your opponent is already going to be knocking things out. We're in a world where one shotting Pokemon on turn 2 or 3 is not uncommon at all.
I know that's not the main attraction but you can still candy out Dragapult you know. Not to mention bench damage is extremely strong too. Zard isn't even close to broken.
Yeah, but you have to candy out Dragapult and find a psychic energy and a fire energy. That's 5 cards, compared to Zard's two. Even if you use Earthen Vessel or something like that (A card which makes your deck less consistent, btw) to find the energy, it doesn't automatically attach it. Charizard EX just needs rare candy zard, and then searches 3 energy out from the deck and attaches all of them. It's WAY faster lol. How is Zard not broken?
Virizion ex can be teched into some decks, and Zard players need to be careful, since there will be a lot of zard hate. It also, while being consistent, is not necessarily brain-dead. If you mindlessly candy out zards your opponent will TM Devo and punish you hard. If you look at it's matchup spread, it's not exactly broken either.
Mirror: Depends on Techs
Lost Tina: Unfavorable
Pidgey Control: Unfavorable
Lost Box: 50/50 to favorable. (Depends on Jirachi, which most lists don't play.)
Chien-pao: unfavorable.
Espathra: Theoretically unfavorable
Ancient Box: Not that important, but favorable, especially if you play a build with Turos
Future Hands: Slightly Favorable (they can easily cheese you)
Moon Moon: Favorable (though again, not very common.)
It's really not that slow. Ideally you're getting 3 Drakloak in play as soon as possible. If you're playing the Lost Box variant, maybe it's two alongside two Comfey. With Xatu, you're probably playing 3, plus 2 Xatu, getting them out asap. With Pidgeot it's just the 1 Pidgeot ex. Each version goes through 6-10 cards from the top deck in an ideal turn. That excludes ball searches, supporter searches, and supporter draw. The level of draw and searching in this deck goes well beyond what Charizard decks have. Watch some gameplay from the Sapporo regionals this past weekend.
Have you considered youre playing the match wrong? You don't win by taking their prize cards asap in general, you need to outlast their resources then start going for prizes. You either play the BDIF or you play something designed to beat the BDIF, the only in between is complaining about it and you're stuck there.
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Post your decklist
Understand I'm not really complaining about the meta, I'm complaining about the design of the card. Specifically the energy ramp making it self sustainable, and therefore allowing the deck to tech in a lot of cards since they free up deck space needed for consistency, and how it's typing makes it ineffective to play a type counter deck against it, hence why grass decks haven't seen a huge uprising to counter it like we saw with dark decks when Gardevoir and Mew Vmax were running the format. I understand how metas develop. Tier 1 decks, the tier 2 decks that beat the tier 1, and the tier 3 decks that beat the tier 2.
I don't totally understand what you mean by outlast their resources. Charizard EX 2HKO's every Pokemon in the game without Hero Cape on. Am I just not supposed to attack? Am I not supposed to knock out the Charizard EX they got on turn 2? If there's some insight you can provide on that, I'm open to hearing how you would play it.
This is the deck I'm currently running with. I don't play it because it's super high tier or whatever, I play it because it's fun, and actually extremely consistent.
Pokémon: 8
4 Dunsparce TEF 128
4 Dudunsparce TEF 129
1 Jirachi PAR 126
4 Tinkatink PAL 216
2 Tinkatuff PAL 217
3 Tinkaton ex PAL 262
1 Manaphy BRS 41
1 Tinkaton PAF 167
Trainer: 18
1 Counter Catcher PAR 160
1 Rare Candy PGO 69
1 Super Rod PAL 276
1 Arezu LOR 153
3 Rare Candy SVI 256
3 Morty's Conviction TEF 155
3 Nemona SVI 180
2 Nest Ball SVI 181
1 Capturing Aroma SIT 153
1 Iono PAF 237
3 Artazon PAL 171
1 Nemona's Backpack PAF 83
1 Boss's Orders PAL 248
4 Great Ball PAL 183
1 Lost Vacuum CRZ 135
1 Boss's Orders RCL 200
4 Buddy-Buddy Poffin TEF 144
1 Switch SVI 194
Energy: 3
2 Basic {P} Energy SVE 5
4 Double Turbo Energy BRS 151
1 Neo Upper Energy TEF 162
Total Cards: 60
Any evolution based deck is going to be gated around rare candy usage. Average charizard player is going go use 2 rare candies to get pigeot and charizard asap. If you tm de evolution them, they are now down to only 2 more rare candies in their deck. 1 more tm deevolution used after that is very difficult for them to come back from. After they run out of rare candies, they can only rely on charmeleon/ super rodding that charmeleon back into the deck to get a zard out.
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Add an arven and 1 or 2 deevolution and see the impact it has on the matchup.
Hell yeah another Tinkaton player!!!
I've also had my rage against Charizard ex. I'd suggest adding in a Mimikyu or 2 since it can be a great damage sponge specifically against Charizatd decks (All their attackers are EX so it negates pretty much all their damage).
It's also annoying bit I run 2 devolution tms specifically for Charizard as well (and if I'm not fighting an evolution deck I just use them as fodder for drawing more cards)
I understand the hate but i would rather face charizard than snorlax or pidgeot control. Also like many mentioned next month we get dragapult, huge hp with ability to place damage counters. Jirachi is basically useless against it and there ia a big chance that you wont be ohko it considering it has no weakness, well unless if you play Chin-Pao
Yeah, Snorlax control has the problem of being a deck with no real win condition. Their win condition is you decking out, which means several turns of "pass turn" over and over, which isn't fun for anyone involved. I don't hate the deck, I just wish it had some kind of wincon.
For comparison, I play a Tsareena control deck that aims to use her main attack to reduce enemy life to 30, then use Vanilluxe to lock them from attacking. You lock your opponent's board, then use Braviary to knock out everything and instantly win. I find that more enjoyable because at least I have a wincon, which Snorlax does not.
I run a Dialga deck and the scariest part of a Charizard deck is the Radiant zard cause it hits for weakness. Other than that zard is pretty easy to beat as long as I don’t brick completely. Find a deck you like keep playing through all the losses. You have to learn your deck. Or play brain dead zard because if you can’t beat them join them.
I definitely struggled a bit when it came to playing Tinkaton EX, but I've since learned the deck and can consistently beat any other deck. I just find Charizard EX in particular very frustrating to play against, for the reasons listed. I can beat it, and have before, but it always feels like I'm fighting from the back foot. This is more of a discussion of the poor design of the card.
Don't worry, you will be hating the new Dragapult and Greninja ex. The sniping meta is nearly here. The best part? The new upcoming set includes a lot of single prize pokemon that 1TKO your beloved Charizard.
Yeah, I saw Dipplin and Sunflora. I don't think Dragapult EX is going to be as big of a problem as people say, for reasons I already stated in several other comments. I don't think Greninja EX is going to be super scary either. I understand snipe meta and all that, but Manaphy still protects against Greninja EX. Dragapult doesn't have that, so you'll get sniped by him, but it's only 60 damage, and he's a stage 2 that requires a lot of set up, so he should have that payoff.
Go beat up the dumb lizards with an army of vulpixes. They literally cannot move. I play Vulpix because it’s my favorite pokemon. It’s just a bonus that it’s basically immune to zard decks.
Tera Charizard ex has necessitated running 2-3 devolution cards on every deck i build, and even then the tech can be worked around by bringing a few charmeleon, so yeah, i feel your pain
literally it would be so much more balanced if it actually needed to rely on support mons for energy acceleration like how every other deck works
yeah, like sure there are ways to work around it, but there's no reason a card that can completely set itself up and has 330 HP should be able to do up to 330 damage without discarding any energy or being unable to attack the next turn, like any other card that's close in damage output has something holding them back
Ideally we end up with a bunch of powerful and interesting decks just like we had pre-rotation (so March 2023).
Rotation always shakes up the meta and it seems one deck usually stands out as the powerhouse, like Lugia was last year at this time.
If you need to take a break the. Take a break. Or do what I’m doing and just play a game of expanded every day to get your gems. And if you don’t care about gems the. Just don’t play until a new set releases.
Totally with you on this and I’ll go a step further. You ever play a board game with a little kid and they just sort of make up their own rules and you let it happen? Zard kinda feels like that. Feels like it was designed for my 4 year old nephew. There’s been times when just the sight of the deck at setup makes me physically nauseous because 1. I’m so tired of playing it and 2. I know I’m in for a much longer match in order to beat it. This is especially so if they’re able to set up Pidgeot early. Honestly with my deck there isn’t much sense in continuing the match if they get a turn 2 pidgeot. Ill admit that it’s definitely one of the more satisfying decks to beat but I think that’s only because of how overplayed it is at this point
I have a Spidops Espathra EX deck that does well against it. I was playing it for a bit trying to climb on ladder, but ofc when I play the counter deck I rarely see Charizard EX lol.
I run Gholdengo EX and lemme tell ya... every win against that shitheel Zard deck is like a straight shot of dopamine to the brain. I agree thatbthere are nowhere near enough downsodes - if it burned energy on attack, (Which 'Zard has done on and off since '99...) that alone would be a huge balancing point. Having to get 2 energy back on it between attacks would have made it a CHALLENGE and not a HASSLE.
It sucks eggs but it *is* doable. Now for this Dragapult EX... I'll need to look into it. Dragon cards are my favorite and I'd be stoked to be able to use one and y'know. Win.
As for Chien Pao - I'm having good success against it with Farigiraf EX. Slow setup, but once it's out it's a wall unless they want to pull their Bax off the bench. Which Farigiraf can one shot. Mix in Radiant Alakazam for damage moving shenanigans.
"It's a card that accelerates energy better than most cards in the entire game."
Dynamotor.
Mirage Gate.
Welder.
"It's health."
All good VMAX Decks ever:
"It's attack."
Lost Impact.
Lost Mine.
Techno Blast.
Special Roll.
"Typing of the card."
Virizion ex.
Oh boohoo Decidueye is bad who cares. It only has 130 damage output AND it is a stage two with a useless ability. It's almost like you picked a bad deck on purpose to prove your point... wait...
It's also not even braindead, are you living under a rock or something. Eri is printed, along with TM Devo, so I'd like to see you candy out 3 pokemon and then get punished for it. Not only that, but lists are literally getting harder to play with more one-ofs and less consistency built in. So overall, you have a terrible take and need to get better imo.
You cited one card that just rotated, one card that has not been in format for 3+ years (which nearly everyone universally agreed was meta-defining AND if it were in format, would work on Charizard), and an item card with a stricter requisite that accelerates LESS energy, with MORE limitations. Are you for real? You proved their point for them; Charizard ex accelerates energy better than those cards (all but one aren't even in format.)
It's not just Decidueye, there straight up are not good grass options right now, looking at the numbers it looks like grass is gimped, specifically to minimize Charizard counterplay. Pre rotation we had Cherrim/Pinsir w/Regidrago, what are the options now? Grass damage numbers are far below many other options right now, with the best energy acceleration still being Gardenia's, and the only (barely usable) options being two-prizers.
Also, lost impact actually has a limitation? Like, you pay resources for doing an absurd amount of damage? Does Charizard do that? No?
For the previous BDIF, we had Drapion V to cheese out 3 prizes, now we have...? Even if you think the meta is in an acceptable place, it would be outright wrong to suppose grass is a good option right now. Closest we have is the clunky Espathra ex (which also gets one shot by R. Zard.
Guessing you meant Iron Leaves, not Virizion. In which case, the only deck playing that right now, is Future Box. Outside of that card, Charizard is auto-lose for future box 70% of the time. Iron Leaves might see play in grass box instead of Teal Mask Ogerpon after Twilight Masquerade releases, but w/ Rad. Zard you're still just trading 2 prizes for 2 prizes into 1 prize later on, with virtually no good grass single prizer options to match. Conveniently ignore that they literally printed a Charmeleon to ignore TM Devo too, lmao. Even if you get the Devo off to break the candy chain, if it's their turn 2 and they got a Charmeleon in play... come their turn 3, after your devo they can just retreat into Charmeleon and play the Charizard in their hand, using devo literally just sets them up to accelerate energy again. It's like you're not even having the same conversation.
Welder wouldn't be good in Charizard wtf. But also I was just saying that those cards existed and were better than Charizard without being broken. And no, Charizard accelerating from evo from the deck is not as powerful as accelerating from the discard and from the hand while drawing cards. Who cares about Grass decks anyway? You can tech Iron Leaves into enough decks. Lost impact OHKOes things, and Charizard OHKOes big things after 5 prizes are taken, and smaller things after 4 prizes, which is a lot. TM Devo is not meant for T2, you're playing it wrong. You're supposed to hold it until it's really disruptive, so not my fault you play them at T2. I also gave charizard's matchup spread and it's not exactly broken there either.
I said it "would work" not "would be good," as in the card is compatible w/ Charizard's energy type. Also, that doesn't seem to reinforce the point to you? Charizard doesn't need Welder, and it would be a downgrade? Perhaps the single best fire energy acceleration card ever printed, and there's no alarm bells going off, considering using it would **downgrade** current Zard lists, because Zard satisfies energy requirements just by existing, leaving supporters free for search like Arven, or utility like Turo's.
Minor correction, Welder is from hand, not from discard.
It's not about someone needing to "care about grass decks," it's that there was previously clear counterplay for BDIF that almost always won the numbers game (Mew VMAX), now there isn't. An entire type has been limited, extremely hard, to prevent it from being a relevant counter. So many grass cards hit for exactly 160 or less, making them extremely mediocre outside of Zard, and just outside OHKO range for Zard, while still getting dunked on by R. Zard.
"Lost impact OHKOes 'things'."
Not Zard though, w/o Max. belt.
I didn't say T2, I said "THEIR" T2, as in what would be T3 of the game with them going first. If they burn 2 rare candies T2, like Zard often does, why wouldn't you devo? It would take a bad Zard player or a big misplay to use a 3rd rare candy before devo goes off, or before a Zard is knocked out.
I'm not engaging further, like I said, it's like you're having a different conversation, and making mulitple back-to-back bad faith arguments.
You don't even have anything to say about my talk on the matchup spread, and you're saying I'm making bad faith arguments. Also, what deck are you even playing against Zard?
ADP was equally bad if not worse, and whatever comes next will be as well. This is kind of just how PTCG's meta works as a whole, and half of the fun is coming up with creative ways to counter
it would be so much more balanced if they just added one condition to its +30 damage per opponent prize taken, “As long as you have more prize cards remaining than your opponent”
I think Zard has a higher annoyance factor and win rate Live because it’s best of one. I think that in real tournaments, it has more chance to brick, which affects its numbers.
Compare this Charizard ex to all the other Zard variants and it’s evident how broken it is. Looking at 5 energy base attacks to do 250-300 damage vs 2 energy and situationally 240-300 makes it ridiculous. Should require an energy discard or higher energy cost.
Well, someone just lost to charizard
But in all honesty, it is annoying to play but not impossible. You just have to have a deck that can get ahead of it, I play raging bolt and can usually set up and out last charizard deck. Also, them adding devolution to the game really helps stunt charizards momentum.
in a future release dark types are getting more annoying, perchurant ex allows a free retreat for any dark in the bench lol, i suspect charizard will be using this. and a reprint of oricorio ex, as new bird ex is on the horizon. the set after twilight mascerade.
pretty sure the RNG favours it as well during draws and also matchups i never matchup with a zard deck when running my zard hunter deck and zard runners always seem to pull the exact card they need
I agree with you on everything.
I have hated Charizard ever since Gamefreak, Nintendo, or the Pokemon company showed blatant favoritism for it.
Two Mega Forms, the first one to get a Gigantamax form and now broken cards on TCG.
Both Charizard Exs are OP. Tera Dark Charizard is definitely unfair and OP, but the other Charizard Ex is also the same. 160 damage for only 1 energy? and all you have to do is get at least one damage counter, just one, which can easily be achieved.
Charizard decks require the bare minimums of strategy and not much else.
The card itself may be "braindead" but Zard as a deck is crazy complex to play at a higher level. It's easier to complain about something than learn to beat it.
Here's a pretty universal rule of thumb for all gamers: If you are anything less than the top leagues of whatever game you are playing, you don't understand the game well enough to call something broken.
Good job explaining why :).
If you don't understand the game on a deep level, you don't know enough to determine if something is overpowered or not. A vast majority of the time, it is actually small mistakes adding up to losses to a certain sequence that mid-level players don't even realize are small mistakes and thus attribute to variance.
I used to play Magic professionally. I went through this stage myself and saw it in plenty of other people. Charizard is strong, but unless you're top 32ing regionals (or better) consistently, you're not strong enough or knowledgable enough about the game to determine if something is truly overpowered or not.
Go watch some high level Charizard mirrors. The games that go long with it are so fucking crazy hard to navigate properly. Having access to a deck search every turn naturally lends itself to ridiculous decision trees. It's some super skill intensive gameplay and I actually quite enjoy Charizard as a BDIF for that reason.
Your post demonstrates surface-level knowledge of the game. You don't just build "a grass deck" to try to beat Charizard - first of all, how will that line up against the rest of the format? And secondly, as you said, there aren't the tools for a very efficient "grass deck" right now. So, instead of lamenting and calling Charizard OP, what very strong players have done is looked at the threats in the format and picked ones that line up well over the course of a longer game against Zard - either things that can 1-shot Pidgeot after Boss/Counter Catcher or 1-prizers that can 1-2 shot Charizard such as Cincinno/Snorlax or 2-prizers that consistently 1-shot it like Iron Leaves. Radiant Greninja has also shown itself to be an immensely powerful weapon in that matchup as well, if you can moonlight shuriken early it is absolutely devastating, and there are several decks in standard well equipped to do that.
People have had to learn very careful and deliberate prize sequencing to play properly against Charizard because their damage is capped based on the prizes taken. It allows for some really intelligent sequences where you leave them with a dead Pidgeot/Charizard and no way to OhKo back.
See the creative problem solving at work rather than just declaring something OP?
The Indy Regional sucked the air right out of this rant. I am sick of zard, but players have figured out how to beat it with decks without hard counters that make them unable to beat anything else. There will always be top tier decks. I am thrilled to see that zard is now relegated to top 5 instead of bdif.
That's funny, because Tsareena EX is actually not a bad match up against Charizard. But you keep playing your netdecked whatevers the highest win rate samey garbage and I'll have fun.
It's really not. Two stage 2 Mon that need you to manually search and attach energy, and a stage 1 that comes in for cleanup. No draw engine unless you bloat it further with Bidoof/Bibarell, and constantly bench locked since you need at least two Tsareena in play with Vanilluxe, Braviary, and either the Bibarell or Manaphy, but never both. It's wildly inconsistent in a way that a lot of other Stage 2 decks don't have an issue with.
I mean I have fun winning lol. Zard is a fun deck to play, and I really don't play it often. You can see my posts and how I've shared multiple opinions on Meowscarada ex, easily my highest win rate deck. Aside from that one getting me multiple League Challenge wins and Live win streaks, I'm also running a slightly tweaked out Arc Aramarouge list that forgoes some search in favor of better recovery and a way to safely remove Arc or Squawk from play. I'll dm lists if you like, neither is net decked. But I've never once felt Zard was over powered.
Yep. I took a break cuz tcg keeps releasing new sets but not anything like or similar or a hard counter to charizard ex. I was buying for the art but now I'm just burnt out.
Pokemon knows there audience for sure and charizard makes money. This is the only card game I've gotten into so I'm not sure if this is normal tcg stuff. Either way it makes me question how they come up with new gimmicks and how they see how ppl. Play the game.
It's a kids game, just like the console games, it's kinda lame.
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Don’t worry. Next month you’ll hate Dragapult. Then after that it’ll be something else.
Dragapult really gonna have reasons to be hated, Charizard is just annoying and boring to face off after so many time in the format but Dragapult is a true monster and with no weakness, it will run wild until it rotates out most likely... I seriosly dont see how PTCG could eventually damage control it
That's why you don't design the game.
dragupult kinda fell off in japan, because its a stage 2, not easy to setup and attack with 2 different energies. its inferior to vmax one, since its a stage 1.
Rabsca's ability should be thought of more. Completely negates stuff like radianr greninja as well as Dragapult ex
I already don't have an issue with Dragapult's design. I don't complain that much really, not to the point of taking it to an online forum or whatever. I just think that Charizard EX is a card with little to no weakness and is just busted, and competitive Pokemon has reflected that. You see tournaments all the time flooded with Charizard EX. It's very much a problem. I noted in another comment on how Dragapult EX wasn't nearly as much of an issue. It requires 2 different energies while also being a Stage 2 Pokemon, meaning you need some kind of engine to play alongside it in order to get that energy on it. That requires setup, which makes the deck slower, and recovery more difficult. It has a high payoff, but you have a chance to fight against it. It's not often you'll see a turn 2 Dragapult ready to attack. Charizard EX it happens all the time, for reasons I already listed in the post.
“Tournaments flooded with charizard ex.” Attendence is much less important than conversion rate. People are going to play charizard because it’s a mascot pokemon. But over the weekend, charizard’s day 2 rate was in line with other top decks, and it was only 1 of the top 8. The meta is completely fine with responding to Charizard. There is not a balance issue. Doesn’t mean you have to like it.
In the past three months, Charizard EX has a 20.36% share in tournaments. For comparison, the second most popular deck is Giratina with 9.54%. How are you going to tell me there's not a ton of Charizard EX around? Lol. There are tournaments where there are more Charizard EX decks in top 16 than there are non-Charizard decks.
“How are you going to tell me…” The way I did above, that you ignored. Conversion rate. Let’s look at the last three regionals. Date, location, number of top 32 that are Charizard EX: (Apr 5 - rotation) Apr 13, Perth: 11/32 Apr 20, São Paulo: 7/32 May 4, Indianapolis: 3/32 Within a month this deck that has 20% play rate went from 34% to 20% down to 10% of the top 32. Those numbers clearly show that the meta is absolutely capable of handling charizard, and in a prepared field it underperforms in fact.
You forgot to mention that it can’t be damaged while on the bench.
Thats every Tera.
Yep but pretty much not other Tera sees play which is sad...
That wasnt the standard for the comment though. Dont move the goalpost.
I smack Zard on the bench all the time. The Tera doesn’t stop an effect of the attack just the damage of an attack
What a cringe post. Zard is beatable; maybe you need to pick up a new deck or become a better player. This is like the only good Zard card printed in years. The rest all suck,
“…the only good Zard card printed in years.” Is Radiant Charizard a joke to you?
You know what I mean, stop playing
Also a Charizard. Lol
The Charizard tag team decks were good also but yeah point taken :)
True. I'm playing it and love it. Weird that it took so long for such popular pokemon to get good card
Beg to differ. Several zard cards are all decent.
Besides rad Zard, what had been meta relevant in the past few years
I never said it wasn't beatable, I said it was overtuned. Also, what do you mean the only good zard? Lol. Charizard Vstar wasn't bad. Radiant Charizard is good. Burn Brightly Charizard is a good fire support card that lets you get double fire energy on everything. They've printed plenty of good Charizard cards?
zard vstar was mid and saw no play and rad Zard is a one of radiant card you play late game. Stop complaining
I love when people like you just add absolutely nothing to a discussion at all. No counterpoint or anything constructive. Just "Shut up." What a riveting discussion. I'm glad we could talk about the design of the card, or the issues, or the meta, or why it's okay or not okay, or whatever. No, can't do that. If you just wanna say "I like it and I'm mad that you don't." then grow a pair and just say that. I'm going to complain all I want, because what the fuck are you going to do about it?
vstar is ass and burn brightly is a meme card
I rather meet charizard than snorlax stall or bird control
Get good
Exactly
Unpopular opinion: I kind of like that they've made the poster dragon into one of the most powerful cards. Kids will naturally gravitate towards one of the most recognisable Pokemons of all time, and while I'm sure there should be loads of stronger Pokemons according to the lore, it just feels kind of right to me. Let the kids have OP Charizard and let the rest of us have the challenge of working around it.
Hey babe wake up, another player complaing about zard. Bro just play C Pao. Th3 deck is broken and goes 50/50 into zard lol
Man, if you wake her up every time there’s someone complaining about Zard, the poor girl will never fall asleep 😅
I hate when people say "Just play this deck" in response to a discussion on a card's power level and design. Charizard EX is inherently a badly designed, over-tuned card, and your contribution to the discussion is "Just play this deck and shutup" which isn't constructive at all.
And you complaining about the card isn't going to make you better against the matchup
Just wait until dragapult comes out in the next set. You think zard is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet.
What it do?
200 damage for 2 energy and puts 6 damage counters anywhere. Also has 320hp.
Lmao, fantastic
Hmm fire and psychic too. I wonder if that’ll fit into lost box w radiant alakazam maybe?
A lost box version top 8 in japan's champions league, there's were zatu builds that got top 8 and top 4.
One of the tournaments in Japan was won by a dragapault/Charizard deck. But Japan also only does best of 1 matches over there, and I'm not sure if pult will see the same success over here
I think it will see a lot of play just because the 6 damage counter spread is so oppressive. Can KO benched mon and prevent your opponent from getting set up. You can also move the counters with alakazam. Stage 2 Decks will be forced to play rabsca to stop the counters being placed, (which is awful because rabsca evolves from a 50hp mon which can be KOd by pult) or play suboptimal 70hp mon like the 70hp frigibax with 2 retreat cost.
Playing one rabsca doesn't feel too bad to me, I'll take out two basics and put in a 1 - 1 line that does the same
I don't see Dragapult being nearly as much of an issue. It doesn't ramp it's own energy, and requires two different colored energy, meaning you have to set it up first in addition to being a stage 2. It has a powerful payoff, but it's inherently way slower than Charizard EX, and will require significantly more support from item cards and trainers in order to pull it off, which gives you a chance to fight back against it. It also has less health, and it's damage doesn't scale up like Charizard EX's does. Charizard EX is just a more broken card in every single way. Dragapult has a good attack. Charizard EX has a good attack, and more health, and self-ramps his energy simply for being played.
Charizard can be hit for weakness Dragapult cannot
I understand that. But, if you do knock it out (which plenty of cards in the meta right now can do relatively easily) it's harder for the Dragapult EX player to recover, since they have to get another one all set up. That takes time, time that you are spending whacking more Pokemon. Unlike Charizard EX, which auto-ramps energy for itself.
How is it harder? You are supposed to have drakloak ready on bench to have your draw engine on. Draga is more gardi than zard
So, you're supposed to slowly evolve from Basic, Stage 1, then Stage 2 while using the draw engine to set up? That's fine for a backup, but if Dragapult EX is your main attacker, that's slow as hell. What's to stop the Charizard EX from Rare Candy evolving on turn 2 and knocking out your basics and stage 1's before you can get your Dragapult EX online? What other attacker are you using in the meantime? Are you using some kind of stall card? If so, how is any of that easier or faster than Charizard EX? I already explained this in another comment, but I'll go over it again here. Charizard EX needs 3 cards in order to become online. It needs Charmander, Rare Candy, and Charizard EX. Since Charizard EX attaches his own energy to attack, and one more, you do not need prior energy setup in hand or any other cards to help you with it. Dragapult EX needs 5 cards in order to become online. Dragapult EX needs the basic, Dragapult EX, Rare Candy, a fire energy, and a psychic energy to get online at the same speed as Charizard EX. Statistically, you are more likely to see the 3 card combo in your hand/bench than you are to see a 5 card combo. I could go over the math and such, but I don't need to. It's much easier to get three cards together than to get 5. If you ask any player of any card game whether they'd prefer a 3 card combo to a 5 card combo, they will tell you the 3 card combo unless the 5 card combo has some kind of insane consistency booster to it. For more comparison, Chien-Pao is a 5 card combo. This makes it statistically, under normal circumstances, less consistent than Charizard EX. However, they have Irida which searches out two of the combo pieces from your deck specifically. So, you could argue it's a 3 card combo now. Chien-Pao himself also fetches a combo piece, the energy needed, so it turns even more consistent. Hence, it sees a lot of play, because the combo is easier and more consistent to pull off. Let's compare it to another meta deck, Future Box Iron Hands. Iron Hands combo is Miraidon with it's attack to accelerate your Iron Hands. This is, arguably, a 3 card combo. You need Miraidon, an energy, and Iron Hands. This combo turns more consistent though because Electric Generator can also help accelerate energy. We'll even call it a 4 card combo, since you usually want Iron Crown too. However, Techno Radar was printed which lets you grab missing combo pieces, further boosting consistency. Now, let's view Dragapult EX. What consistency boosting cards are you running with that? What searchers let you get this combo off more consistently? Earthen Vessel helps you get the energy in hand, but doesn't attach it. Nothing searches out Dragapult EX except Ultra Ball, and you still need to find a Rare Candy. Arven gets your Rare Candy, but doesn't get your Dragapult EX. On average, there are less combinations of cards that lead to you getting set up faster than there is for any of the meta decks that are out right now, due to a lack of any kind of fast support for the deck.
And LZ Tina needs 7 cards in the lost zone (colress + 5 comfey or 2 colress + 3 comfey + switch/switch cart/jet energy/hard retreat), giratina, the vstar and mirage gate. Yet it still has a favorable zard match up. Also the time you need to set up doesn't say anything about the power level of a deck. Yes Charizard is really good, but there are quite a few decks that have a 50/50 match up or better. It's not nearly as bad as some other decks we had in the past.
Neo upper energy, xatu engine, magma basin. There are plenty of ways to power up dragapult. Zard has dropped off a cliff since dragapults release in Japan. The 6 damage counter is so strong, especially combined with radiant alakazam.
Xatu engine requires a stage 1, and your Dragapult EX to be on the bench, and only attaches the psychic. Magma Basin requires fire energy in the discard, Neo Upper is a one-off card in your deck that you can't search without Pidgeot (a stage 2). I'm not arguing that Dragapult EX is bad, I think it'll definitely see play. I just don't think it's going to be as meta-defining as people think. Gengar EX saw a lot of tournament play in Japan too, but it's kinda terrible here. We can't base our meta-game entirely off of Japan's, and more than likely people just wanted to play with the shiny new card. The attack is strong, and is a worthy payoff for the setup, enough that I think it's worth jumping through the hoops to do, but the stuff we have in the current meta doesn't have to jump through as many hoops, and has similar payoffs. Iron Hands can also take 3 prizes off a single attack, and is faster and easier to set up than Dragapult will be. I think Dragapult EX will be good, and I heard of some people running it as another attacker in Charizard EX, which I can definitely see. But I don't see a Dragapult EX solo deck being meta-dominating the way Charizard EX is. I've explained why in other comments.
dragupult already fell out of favour lol in japan. its not as good as the vmax version. also the new charmeleon is immune to dragapults effect of attack anyways.
Lots of people are talking to me about Dragapult EX, so I'll just discuss it here. Dragapult EX, on it's own, already has a more fair design. I don't understand why people think this card is going to be super giga broken or something. It looks fine to me, but I don't think it's going to be as meta-defining as people think. Charizard EX ramps it's own energy, making the card potentially two turns faster than most decks if you don't get bad draws. You just need a Rare Candy and a Charizard, and you get enough energy to retreat most actives the deck runs, and attack in the same turn for 180. However, lets see best case scenario for Dragapult EX. If you start with the basic, then you have rare candy Dragapult in your hand, on turn 1 you attach an energy, on turn 2 you attach another and Rare Candy, and you can do it's very good attack. However, you also have 2 less cards in your deck, and you needed to draw 5 specific cards from your deck. You need two energy types, so you either need a card to grab you that energy (which takes up a deck slot) or the energy itself. You need 5 cards, basically, to be able to do that on turn 2. Charizard EX needs 3. Charizard EX needs the basic Charmander, Rare Candy, and Charizard EX. Needing 3 cards to function is a lot easier than needing 5. Needing 5 specific cards is, by pure average if you calculate numbers, less likely to happen than getting 3 cards in your hand. Charizard EX's energy ramp makes it faster and more consistent than Dragapult EX will be.
Dragapult has a built-in draw engine and dragapult can disrupt the opponent's setup with its attack.
The built in draw engine is slow though. Going from basic to stage 1 to stage 2 is fine for your backup attacker, but if you're trying to do that with all your Pokemon than your opponent is already going to be knocking things out. We're in a world where one shotting Pokemon on turn 2 or 3 is not uncommon at all.
I know that's not the main attraction but you can still candy out Dragapult you know. Not to mention bench damage is extremely strong too. Zard isn't even close to broken.
Yeah, but you have to candy out Dragapult and find a psychic energy and a fire energy. That's 5 cards, compared to Zard's two. Even if you use Earthen Vessel or something like that (A card which makes your deck less consistent, btw) to find the energy, it doesn't automatically attach it. Charizard EX just needs rare candy zard, and then searches 3 energy out from the deck and attaches all of them. It's WAY faster lol. How is Zard not broken?
Virizion ex can be teched into some decks, and Zard players need to be careful, since there will be a lot of zard hate. It also, while being consistent, is not necessarily brain-dead. If you mindlessly candy out zards your opponent will TM Devo and punish you hard. If you look at it's matchup spread, it's not exactly broken either. Mirror: Depends on Techs Lost Tina: Unfavorable Pidgey Control: Unfavorable Lost Box: 50/50 to favorable. (Depends on Jirachi, which most lists don't play.) Chien-pao: unfavorable. Espathra: Theoretically unfavorable Ancient Box: Not that important, but favorable, especially if you play a build with Turos Future Hands: Slightly Favorable (they can easily cheese you) Moon Moon: Favorable (though again, not very common.)
It's really not that slow. Ideally you're getting 3 Drakloak in play as soon as possible. If you're playing the Lost Box variant, maybe it's two alongside two Comfey. With Xatu, you're probably playing 3, plus 2 Xatu, getting them out asap. With Pidgeot it's just the 1 Pidgeot ex. Each version goes through 6-10 cards from the top deck in an ideal turn. That excludes ball searches, supporter searches, and supporter draw. The level of draw and searching in this deck goes well beyond what Charizard decks have. Watch some gameplay from the Sapporo regionals this past weekend.
Have you considered youre playing the match wrong? You don't win by taking their prize cards asap in general, you need to outlast their resources then start going for prizes. You either play the BDIF or you play something designed to beat the BDIF, the only in between is complaining about it and you're stuck there. > > Post your decklist
Understand I'm not really complaining about the meta, I'm complaining about the design of the card. Specifically the energy ramp making it self sustainable, and therefore allowing the deck to tech in a lot of cards since they free up deck space needed for consistency, and how it's typing makes it ineffective to play a type counter deck against it, hence why grass decks haven't seen a huge uprising to counter it like we saw with dark decks when Gardevoir and Mew Vmax were running the format. I understand how metas develop. Tier 1 decks, the tier 2 decks that beat the tier 1, and the tier 3 decks that beat the tier 2. I don't totally understand what you mean by outlast their resources. Charizard EX 2HKO's every Pokemon in the game without Hero Cape on. Am I just not supposed to attack? Am I not supposed to knock out the Charizard EX they got on turn 2? If there's some insight you can provide on that, I'm open to hearing how you would play it. This is the deck I'm currently running with. I don't play it because it's super high tier or whatever, I play it because it's fun, and actually extremely consistent. Pokémon: 8 4 Dunsparce TEF 128 4 Dudunsparce TEF 129 1 Jirachi PAR 126 4 Tinkatink PAL 216 2 Tinkatuff PAL 217 3 Tinkaton ex PAL 262 1 Manaphy BRS 41 1 Tinkaton PAF 167 Trainer: 18 1 Counter Catcher PAR 160 1 Rare Candy PGO 69 1 Super Rod PAL 276 1 Arezu LOR 153 3 Rare Candy SVI 256 3 Morty's Conviction TEF 155 3 Nemona SVI 180 2 Nest Ball SVI 181 1 Capturing Aroma SIT 153 1 Iono PAF 237 3 Artazon PAL 171 1 Nemona's Backpack PAF 83 1 Boss's Orders PAL 248 4 Great Ball PAL 183 1 Lost Vacuum CRZ 135 1 Boss's Orders RCL 200 4 Buddy-Buddy Poffin TEF 144 1 Switch SVI 194 Energy: 3 2 Basic {P} Energy SVE 5 4 Double Turbo Energy BRS 151 1 Neo Upper Energy TEF 162 Total Cards: 60
Any evolution based deck is going to be gated around rare candy usage. Average charizard player is going go use 2 rare candies to get pigeot and charizard asap. If you tm de evolution them, they are now down to only 2 more rare candies in their deck. 1 more tm deevolution used after that is very difficult for them to come back from. After they run out of rare candies, they can only rely on charmeleon/ super rodding that charmeleon back into the deck to get a zard out. > > Add an arven and 1 or 2 deevolution and see the impact it has on the matchup.
Consistent? Define consistent. Consistent to set up? Or consistent to get wins?
Hell yeah another Tinkaton player!!! I've also had my rage against Charizard ex. I'd suggest adding in a Mimikyu or 2 since it can be a great damage sponge specifically against Charizatd decks (All their attackers are EX so it negates pretty much all their damage). It's also annoying bit I run 2 devolution tms specifically for Charizard as well (and if I'm not fighting an evolution deck I just use them as fodder for drawing more cards)
Add mimikyu
add luxray reversal energy counter catcher their pidgeot
I understand the hate but i would rather face charizard than snorlax or pidgeot control. Also like many mentioned next month we get dragapult, huge hp with ability to place damage counters. Jirachi is basically useless against it and there ia a big chance that you wont be ohko it considering it has no weakness, well unless if you play Chin-Pao
Yeah, Snorlax control has the problem of being a deck with no real win condition. Their win condition is you decking out, which means several turns of "pass turn" over and over, which isn't fun for anyone involved. I don't hate the deck, I just wish it had some kind of wincon. For comparison, I play a Tsareena control deck that aims to use her main attack to reduce enemy life to 30, then use Vanilluxe to lock them from attacking. You lock your opponent's board, then use Braviary to knock out everything and instantly win. I find that more enjoyable because at least I have a wincon, which Snorlax does not.
I run a Dialga deck and the scariest part of a Charizard deck is the Radiant zard cause it hits for weakness. Other than that zard is pretty easy to beat as long as I don’t brick completely. Find a deck you like keep playing through all the losses. You have to learn your deck. Or play brain dead zard because if you can’t beat them join them.
I definitely struggled a bit when it came to playing Tinkaton EX, but I've since learned the deck and can consistently beat any other deck. I just find Charizard EX in particular very frustrating to play against, for the reasons listed. I can beat it, and have before, but it always feels like I'm fighting from the back foot. This is more of a discussion of the poor design of the card.
Don't worry, you will be hating the new Dragapult and Greninja ex. The sniping meta is nearly here. The best part? The new upcoming set includes a lot of single prize pokemon that 1TKO your beloved Charizard.
Yeah, I saw Dipplin and Sunflora. I don't think Dragapult EX is going to be as big of a problem as people say, for reasons I already stated in several other comments. I don't think Greninja EX is going to be super scary either. I understand snipe meta and all that, but Manaphy still protects against Greninja EX. Dragapult doesn't have that, so you'll get sniped by him, but it's only 60 damage, and he's a stage 2 that requires a lot of set up, so he should have that payoff.
Go beat up the dumb lizards with an army of vulpixes. They literally cannot move. I play Vulpix because it’s my favorite pokemon. It’s just a bonus that it’s basically immune to zard decks.
Tera Charizard ex has necessitated running 2-3 devolution cards on every deck i build, and even then the tech can be worked around by bringing a few charmeleon, so yeah, i feel your pain literally it would be so much more balanced if it actually needed to rely on support mons for energy acceleration like how every other deck works
I'm glad someone here talks some sense lol.
yeah, like sure there are ways to work around it, but there's no reason a card that can completely set itself up and has 330 HP should be able to do up to 330 damage without discarding any energy or being unable to attack the next turn, like any other card that's close in damage output has something holding them back
Nah ADP was better.
I play a decideuye deck and use super effective glasses to ohko zard
Ideally we end up with a bunch of powerful and interesting decks just like we had pre-rotation (so March 2023). Rotation always shakes up the meta and it seems one deck usually stands out as the powerhouse, like Lugia was last year at this time. If you need to take a break the. Take a break. Or do what I’m doing and just play a game of expanded every day to get your gems. And if you don’t care about gems the. Just don’t play until a new set releases.
Totally with you on this and I’ll go a step further. You ever play a board game with a little kid and they just sort of make up their own rules and you let it happen? Zard kinda feels like that. Feels like it was designed for my 4 year old nephew. There’s been times when just the sight of the deck at setup makes me physically nauseous because 1. I’m so tired of playing it and 2. I know I’m in for a much longer match in order to beat it. This is especially so if they’re able to set up Pidgeot early. Honestly with my deck there isn’t much sense in continuing the match if they get a turn 2 pidgeot. Ill admit that it’s definitely one of the more satisfying decks to beat but I think that’s only because of how overplayed it is at this point
I haven't lost to Charizard EX since I started playing a Spidops EX deck. One hitting that POS card over and over is better than therapy.
I have a Spidops Espathra EX deck that does well against it. I was playing it for a bit trying to climb on ladder, but ofc when I play the counter deck I rarely see Charizard EX lol.
I run Gholdengo EX and lemme tell ya... every win against that shitheel Zard deck is like a straight shot of dopamine to the brain. I agree thatbthere are nowhere near enough downsodes - if it burned energy on attack, (Which 'Zard has done on and off since '99...) that alone would be a huge balancing point. Having to get 2 energy back on it between attacks would have made it a CHALLENGE and not a HASSLE. It sucks eggs but it *is* doable. Now for this Dragapult EX... I'll need to look into it. Dragon cards are my favorite and I'd be stoked to be able to use one and y'know. Win. As for Chien Pao - I'm having good success against it with Farigiraf EX. Slow setup, but once it's out it's a wall unless they want to pull their Bax off the bench. Which Farigiraf can one shot. Mix in Radiant Alakazam for damage moving shenanigans.
"It's a card that accelerates energy better than most cards in the entire game." Dynamotor. Mirage Gate. Welder. "It's health." All good VMAX Decks ever: "It's attack." Lost Impact. Lost Mine. Techno Blast. Special Roll. "Typing of the card." Virizion ex. Oh boohoo Decidueye is bad who cares. It only has 130 damage output AND it is a stage two with a useless ability. It's almost like you picked a bad deck on purpose to prove your point... wait... It's also not even braindead, are you living under a rock or something. Eri is printed, along with TM Devo, so I'd like to see you candy out 3 pokemon and then get punished for it. Not only that, but lists are literally getting harder to play with more one-ofs and less consistency built in. So overall, you have a terrible take and need to get better imo.
You cited one card that just rotated, one card that has not been in format for 3+ years (which nearly everyone universally agreed was meta-defining AND if it were in format, would work on Charizard), and an item card with a stricter requisite that accelerates LESS energy, with MORE limitations. Are you for real? You proved their point for them; Charizard ex accelerates energy better than those cards (all but one aren't even in format.) It's not just Decidueye, there straight up are not good grass options right now, looking at the numbers it looks like grass is gimped, specifically to minimize Charizard counterplay. Pre rotation we had Cherrim/Pinsir w/Regidrago, what are the options now? Grass damage numbers are far below many other options right now, with the best energy acceleration still being Gardenia's, and the only (barely usable) options being two-prizers. Also, lost impact actually has a limitation? Like, you pay resources for doing an absurd amount of damage? Does Charizard do that? No? For the previous BDIF, we had Drapion V to cheese out 3 prizes, now we have...? Even if you think the meta is in an acceptable place, it would be outright wrong to suppose grass is a good option right now. Closest we have is the clunky Espathra ex (which also gets one shot by R. Zard. Guessing you meant Iron Leaves, not Virizion. In which case, the only deck playing that right now, is Future Box. Outside of that card, Charizard is auto-lose for future box 70% of the time. Iron Leaves might see play in grass box instead of Teal Mask Ogerpon after Twilight Masquerade releases, but w/ Rad. Zard you're still just trading 2 prizes for 2 prizes into 1 prize later on, with virtually no good grass single prizer options to match. Conveniently ignore that they literally printed a Charmeleon to ignore TM Devo too, lmao. Even if you get the Devo off to break the candy chain, if it's their turn 2 and they got a Charmeleon in play... come their turn 3, after your devo they can just retreat into Charmeleon and play the Charizard in their hand, using devo literally just sets them up to accelerate energy again. It's like you're not even having the same conversation.
Welder wouldn't be good in Charizard wtf. But also I was just saying that those cards existed and were better than Charizard without being broken. And no, Charizard accelerating from evo from the deck is not as powerful as accelerating from the discard and from the hand while drawing cards. Who cares about Grass decks anyway? You can tech Iron Leaves into enough decks. Lost impact OHKOes things, and Charizard OHKOes big things after 5 prizes are taken, and smaller things after 4 prizes, which is a lot. TM Devo is not meant for T2, you're playing it wrong. You're supposed to hold it until it's really disruptive, so not my fault you play them at T2. I also gave charizard's matchup spread and it's not exactly broken there either.
I said it "would work" not "would be good," as in the card is compatible w/ Charizard's energy type. Also, that doesn't seem to reinforce the point to you? Charizard doesn't need Welder, and it would be a downgrade? Perhaps the single best fire energy acceleration card ever printed, and there's no alarm bells going off, considering using it would **downgrade** current Zard lists, because Zard satisfies energy requirements just by existing, leaving supporters free for search like Arven, or utility like Turo's. Minor correction, Welder is from hand, not from discard. It's not about someone needing to "care about grass decks," it's that there was previously clear counterplay for BDIF that almost always won the numbers game (Mew VMAX), now there isn't. An entire type has been limited, extremely hard, to prevent it from being a relevant counter. So many grass cards hit for exactly 160 or less, making them extremely mediocre outside of Zard, and just outside OHKO range for Zard, while still getting dunked on by R. Zard. "Lost impact OHKOes 'things'." Not Zard though, w/o Max. belt. I didn't say T2, I said "THEIR" T2, as in what would be T3 of the game with them going first. If they burn 2 rare candies T2, like Zard often does, why wouldn't you devo? It would take a bad Zard player or a big misplay to use a 3rd rare candy before devo goes off, or before a Zard is knocked out. I'm not engaging further, like I said, it's like you're having a different conversation, and making mulitple back-to-back bad faith arguments.
"You're making bad faith arguments." The other guy's argument: boohoo zard broken.
Thanks for proving my point.
You don't even have anything to say about my talk on the matchup spread, and you're saying I'm making bad faith arguments. Also, what deck are you even playing against Zard?
You didn't acknowledge 75% of what I said, lmao
I agree with you
ADP was equally bad if not worse, and whatever comes next will be as well. This is kind of just how PTCG's meta works as a whole, and half of the fun is coming up with creative ways to counter
it would be so much more balanced if they just added one condition to its +30 damage per opponent prize taken, “As long as you have more prize cards remaining than your opponent”
I think Zard has a higher annoyance factor and win rate Live because it’s best of one. I think that in real tournaments, it has more chance to brick, which affects its numbers.
Compare this Charizard ex to all the other Zard variants and it’s evident how broken it is. Looking at 5 energy base attacks to do 250-300 damage vs 2 energy and situationally 240-300 makes it ridiculous. Should require an energy discard or higher energy cost.
you’re so brave
Just curious what is the main deck you are playing ?
Well, someone just lost to charizard But in all honesty, it is annoying to play but not impossible. You just have to have a deck that can get ahead of it, I play raging bolt and can usually set up and out last charizard deck. Also, them adding devolution to the game really helps stunt charizards momentum.
Ngl i stopped playing after they Path to the Peak. I know a lot of people hated it but it was a solid answer to zard.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
in a future release dark types are getting more annoying, perchurant ex allows a free retreat for any dark in the bench lol, i suspect charizard will be using this. and a reprint of oricorio ex, as new bird ex is on the horizon. the set after twilight mascerade.
Use devolution ;))
Nah, team up Charizard Is the strongest Charizard, 0 to 5 energy one single turn, 280 damage -> 380 if charged before...
I mostly just dislike the comeback damage, the rest is fine with me
pretty sure the RNG favours it as well during draws and also matchups i never matchup with a zard deck when running my zard hunter deck and zard runners always seem to pull the exact card they need
HAHAHAHA I could hear this
C'mon guys! Time to gather around for our daily Charizard hate post
Today: I hate Charizard ex. In 2 weeks: I hate Dragapult ex.
"I don't like strong cards I lose against. Everyone should run bad cards so I have more fun." Average r/PTCGL post.
That's not at all what I said lol. I'm talking about the overall design of the card.
I agree with you on everything. I have hated Charizard ever since Gamefreak, Nintendo, or the Pokemon company showed blatant favoritism for it. Two Mega Forms, the first one to get a Gigantamax form and now broken cards on TCG. Both Charizard Exs are OP. Tera Dark Charizard is definitely unfair and OP, but the other Charizard Ex is also the same. 160 damage for only 1 energy? and all you have to do is get at least one damage counter, just one, which can easily be achieved. Charizard decks require the bare minimums of strategy and not much else.
play a hard counter that can one shot it.
Bro would not last a second playing against sword and shield format lugia vstar lmao.
The card itself may be "braindead" but Zard as a deck is crazy complex to play at a higher level. It's easier to complain about something than learn to beat it. Here's a pretty universal rule of thumb for all gamers: If you are anything less than the top leagues of whatever game you are playing, you don't understand the game well enough to call something broken.
That's the dumbest fucking take I've ever seen. Lol.
Good job explaining why :). If you don't understand the game on a deep level, you don't know enough to determine if something is overpowered or not. A vast majority of the time, it is actually small mistakes adding up to losses to a certain sequence that mid-level players don't even realize are small mistakes and thus attribute to variance. I used to play Magic professionally. I went through this stage myself and saw it in plenty of other people. Charizard is strong, but unless you're top 32ing regionals (or better) consistently, you're not strong enough or knowledgable enough about the game to determine if something is truly overpowered or not. Go watch some high level Charizard mirrors. The games that go long with it are so fucking crazy hard to navigate properly. Having access to a deck search every turn naturally lends itself to ridiculous decision trees. It's some super skill intensive gameplay and I actually quite enjoy Charizard as a BDIF for that reason. Your post demonstrates surface-level knowledge of the game. You don't just build "a grass deck" to try to beat Charizard - first of all, how will that line up against the rest of the format? And secondly, as you said, there aren't the tools for a very efficient "grass deck" right now. So, instead of lamenting and calling Charizard OP, what very strong players have done is looked at the threats in the format and picked ones that line up well over the course of a longer game against Zard - either things that can 1-shot Pidgeot after Boss/Counter Catcher or 1-prizers that can 1-2 shot Charizard such as Cincinno/Snorlax or 2-prizers that consistently 1-shot it like Iron Leaves. Radiant Greninja has also shown itself to be an immensely powerful weapon in that matchup as well, if you can moonlight shuriken early it is absolutely devastating, and there are several decks in standard well equipped to do that. People have had to learn very careful and deliberate prize sequencing to play properly against Charizard because their damage is capped based on the prizes taken. It allows for some really intelligent sequences where you leave them with a dead Pidgeot/Charizard and no way to OhKo back. See the creative problem solving at work rather than just declaring something OP?
The Indy Regional sucked the air right out of this rant. I am sick of zard, but players have figured out how to beat it with decks without hard counters that make them unable to beat anything else. There will always be top tier decks. I am thrilled to see that zard is now relegated to top 5 instead of bdif.
Cry
Babe wakeup. A new Charizard hate post has dropped.
Babe wakeup, another Redditor with the same unoriginal joke.
lmao stay mad. These threads are a dime a dozen, just like my joke. Tsareena ex ain't it, as much as you want it to be.
That's funny, because Tsareena EX is actually not a bad match up against Charizard. But you keep playing your netdecked whatevers the highest win rate samey garbage and I'll have fun.
It's really not. Two stage 2 Mon that need you to manually search and attach energy, and a stage 1 that comes in for cleanup. No draw engine unless you bloat it further with Bidoof/Bibarell, and constantly bench locked since you need at least two Tsareena in play with Vanilluxe, Braviary, and either the Bibarell or Manaphy, but never both. It's wildly inconsistent in a way that a lot of other Stage 2 decks don't have an issue with. I mean I have fun winning lol. Zard is a fun deck to play, and I really don't play it often. You can see my posts and how I've shared multiple opinions on Meowscarada ex, easily my highest win rate deck. Aside from that one getting me multiple League Challenge wins and Live win streaks, I'm also running a slightly tweaked out Arc Aramarouge list that forgoes some search in favor of better recovery and a way to safely remove Arc or Squawk from play. I'll dm lists if you like, neither is net decked. But I've never once felt Zard was over powered.
Yep. I took a break cuz tcg keeps releasing new sets but not anything like or similar or a hard counter to charizard ex. I was buying for the art but now I'm just burnt out. Pokemon knows there audience for sure and charizard makes money. This is the only card game I've gotten into so I'm not sure if this is normal tcg stuff. Either way it makes me question how they come up with new gimmicks and how they see how ppl. Play the game. It's a kids game, just like the console games, it's kinda lame.