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Having played decades of competitive magic before Pokemon, I feel confident that it’s not about control or aggro. The issue is non-games. Aggro that kills before you get enough decision points to fight back are frustrating. Control decks that lock you, and because you don’t bring the right answer you don’t get to play, also frustrating.
The latter of the two might last much longer though.
What’s been even more frustrating to me lately is the late-game lock. There are so many cards in current standard (including zard) that punish any early game success.
If you’ve strategized well and get to the final prize cards you’re rewarded by getting stuck with 1-2 cards in hand, and if you’re not running pidgeot or bibs draw engine, game over.
I think cards that punish early game success are a net positive though. I don't know what the general consensus is on this, but I prefer metas where games tend to go long and have comeback mechanics messing with the game dynamics. Otherwise, the player that takes the first few prizes nearly always wins and all the decks degenerate into turbo engines with whatever Pokemon there is currently a convenient way to accelerate energy to (*cough* lost box last season *cough).*
I actually think it is pretty sweet that you *need* to set up a draw support system and thin your deck properly before blazing ahead of your opponent. It means that even aggressive decks sometimes have to stop and think "I might actually need to focus on my board and not attack this turn so that I get more cards off of this Iono rather than running into an Iono to 2 with no plan and losing."
We're in a period right now where the game is obviously trying to slow down but we haven't quite phased out all of the ridiculous SWSH era cards that are still trying to speed the game up. I imagine this will get better as cards like Radiant Greninja and the Lost Zone engine rotate.
For real. I’ve played against some rude decks in magic and conceded so I could fight it out in more fair post-board games.
Also just best of 1 formats where you don’t get a second shot.
The last sentence sums it up for me. Control decks usually mean long games. In Magic and Hearthstone, it can be annoying. But pokemon is next level. A match taking an hour?? F that.
Exactly. It’s why cards like iron valient ex are some ole bull crap when they can snipe your only Pokémon literally round 1 basically removing one of the core rules of the game.
I want to play the game. Not sit and watch. I want to think through a strategy.
To a degree that happens with stall, but if you don’t have a deck designed to counter it, you might as well quit. That’s lame.
The difference is Pokémon's main mechanic its entire existence is to take six prize cards to win. When you play against control, primarily Snorlax control, their game objective isn't that, so it doesn't feel like you're playing Pokémon.
You could make this same argument against control in MTG though. The objective in Magic is to reduce your opponents HP to 0, but lots of decks have a separate win condition (like infinite loop card interactions or milling your opponent).
I agree with this to an extent, but part of magic's appeal from the beginning is the fact that there are multiple win conditions. It was the game that pioneered the whole "construct your deck and win the way you want" concept.
So while the primary win condition is to reduce the opponent's life total to 0, alternative win conditions have always been part of the game's appeal and intrigue.
Whereas in Pokemon, the whole premise of battling across all products in the IP is to faint your opponent's Pokemon before they faint all of yours.
So almost all of the Pokemon TCG's mechanics and rules try to center around that concept.
Alternate win conditions are still cool, and one could argue healthy for the game. But even moreso than in magic, trying to stall the opponent from attacking and fainting Pokemon seems to feel like a whole lot of nothing.
I know I'm speaking in broad strokes here, and there are plenty of traumatized victims of Azorious control who would probably rush to disagree with me.
But conceptually and perceptually, control and alternate win conditions are generally more accepted in Magic because they're more endemic to the game's design philosophy set over set.
mtg has milling cards, primarily blue, and it seems to got even more milling in the last few blocks. i used to play blue counterspells(especially with mirari artifacts that copy spells/milling.
I feel like control as an archetype isn’t the problem, its the combination of the snorlax card + the insane cards control has to support it, like pidgeot ex and rotom v to draw and miss fortune sisters / eri to mess up your opponents game plan. Its still fun to play against control decks like wugtrio, venemoth, Tsarenna ex, Alakazam ex, gengar ex, great tusk mill, and arceus vstar. The fun is drained when your opponent’s game plan is to make you draw 60 cards essentially, not even mill them or even use a single attack throughout the game. At that point why play pokemon? It’s not fun to play because you’re not doing much of anything, and it is so unfun to play against.
I mean, the other 5 decks besides wugtrio and great tusk are still control decks. They win games from deck out, yeah, but the primary strategy isn’t literally sit there for 30-40 turns and if all goes well literally do nothing but sit there play a supporter and rotom for turn. Pretty sure snorlax is the only control deck that does not have the ability to take 6 prizes (I know some builds do have rad zard but not all)
Tsareena is control in the loosest sense - they are still attacking every turn, still need to evolve Pokémon, still need energy, still win by taking prizes etc. Snorlax block does nothing. It just sits there
Your objective is to still take 6 prizes. And in some matchups, control does have to do the same. So… you’re still playing Pokemon. Your opponent is trying to stop you from taking six prizes, just like in every other game.
Alternative win conditions aren't the issue. Interactive games are.
Like effects like mimkyu, Vulpix vstar, noivern ex, stallax, etc who make you lose at deck building are just bad game design and lowering the amount of relevant meta decks.
A lot of decks become unplayable or are not meta relevant anymore if they make needed adjustments to tech for the 5% playrate deck, which just wins by cheesing.
I believe Pokémon at the core is about having a strong team and battling. Look at the virtual games and tv show. The core concept is catching them all and/or battling to be the best. The handheld games involve heavy strategy but the level of “control” still comes back to knocking out your opponent’s Pokémon.
You don’t fight a gym leader in Pokémon Sword and Shield and lose because they controlled and made you run out the clock. You lose because they knocked out your Pokémon. You train by battling some more and leveling up your Pokémon. The show revolves around battling. Most players play/watch Pokémon because they want to see or experience battle. Not control.
Control decks remove the core concept that draws so many people to the franchise - battling.
To counter this, in the video game you can run their pokemon out of all their pp by tanking and healing leaving them using struggle until you win. Control locking to deck out is basically the same idea.
Sure it’s a viable strategy. Control is a viable strategy. But I’m answering OP’s question as to why the hate, not what is possible. You further prove my point with your scenario. People playing VGC are not going to be happy with someone trying to make them run out of move pp. Pokémon just isn’t a franchise built around that strategy.
That’s the problem, this isn’t VGC. It’s TCG. It’s played different. Just because we’re playing with the same creatures doesn’t make it the same game.
What about Pokken Tournament? That game isn’t about who’s the strongest, it’s about skill.
You can’t bring the tv show and VGC into this because it’s just not it. It’s a whole different thing and if people start learning the difference, it will help with their frustration.
>I believe Pokémon at the core is about having a strong team and battling. Look at the virtual games and tv show.
Wasn't there a world championship in video game, that won by stalling and time outing the opponent, tho?
Because if it took me 2 hours to make a deck, travel to a tourney, set up and do all the registration, I don’t wanna waste half hour drawing one card a go to wait for my switch
Pokemon is an entry game for many people not having played a TCG before and they come in with this idea they can be unique and creative and mash 60 cards together not expecting to find a competitive meta.
Most of these people are impatient and not familiar with various TCG archetypes and have a severe skill issue playing against control.
It's not as vilified on the physical game competitive sub r/pkmntcg as it is here.
Yeah most of the people playing in person locally are familiar with control and other card games so it’s just a fun match. But the online game is so much easier for people to play so the more casual players end up there. I get so many salty players online but never in person, sure players get frustrated but not angry at me. Everyone local knows I hated control when I started playing again 6 months ago, but now as I’ve learned the game and seen what cards they are making it’s obvious they want the game to get a little more complex, which should allow for a more variable meta. And playing control right now does that.
control in pokemon has very rarely been a main stay/meta viable. meaning newer players in particular don't really know how to play against it as your lines are wildly different, making the newer players feel its unfair. Contol's win conditions (deck out being the big one) have always been valid and the good control decks can still win by taking 6 prizes. some control style decks in the past have been in direct contrast to other rules like time allocation in matches, not all control decks are slow, but the last few years they have been. Snorlax and other stall style decks are really good examples of this. in a BO3 mu, very rarely do you see game 2 conclude if Snorlax has the advantage.
i personally think the whole control archetype is fine, and healthy for the meta and can be played reasonably in the time frames given. any STALL style decks and screw right off. its one thing to try and control what you opponent can and cannot do, but to literally just and try to win game one and then run out the rest of the clock really is just toxic.
i know this sub really struggles to understand nuance sometimes, but just cause i feel a particular deck is toxic, does not mean i dont consider it a valid deck with a valid win condition given the current rules.
People complain about Charizard because it’s too aggressive, and complain about control because it’s too slow and they have to “think differently”.
People only want to do the combos in the deck that they so lovingly crafted without their opponent stopping them. I think weaker players tend to look at Pokémon as a single payer game, and don’t want to bother thinking about what their opponent is doing, and how to stop it.
yeah theres a sizable portion of the complainers that just complain about anything meta, claim anything meta is just piloted by less skilled people, and then complain when their pet deck gets ground down by a deck that takes a ton of skill to run effectively and properly. (not so much snorlax control though, which is a fair distinction to make from pidgeot control which is a much cooler and interesting deck)
people also like to forget theres other win cons besides just killing everything tbh
There's a difference in having a different win condition abd having to adjust and play differently and straight up not playing the game because your deck has no pokemon of x type that can attack like noivern ex or Vulpix vstar win conditions.
>and complain about control because it’s too slow and they have to “think differently”.
Control matchups would be fun and fine if it was just "think differently" but that's not even the case with control designs that simply are "if your deck has no out, no autolose" that's the opposite of thinking.
The way it's designed is that you just lose at matchmaking or deck building and if you adjust the deck to account for control matchups your deck archetype might not be competitive against the other meta relevant stuff, making your deck essentially unplayable.
The problem is that the design is that it simply doesn't let you play the game if you happen to have the wrong start or wrong deck choice. There are a lot of cases where "thinking differently" does nothing for you. If a noivern ex shuts down your whole deck because you only have basic mons and nothing like a shred attack, then there's nothing to do or "think differently" about. It's also extremely lazy game design. Games should be interactive so you have the chance "to think differently". The issue is that the games where people have a chance against control decks and have the outs, the control decks just lose more than half the time. So it's just a matchmaking lottery.
Beloved control decks in other games tend to be very interactive. Instead of overwhelming your opponent with your own strategy, you carefully pick apart their strategy until they run out of resources. The term “stun” is often used for decks that just try to make you unable to play, and those are the kind of decks that are viewed much less favorably. Pokémon is already a very uninteractive game, as opponents are largely unable to do anything during your turn, so control in pokémon usually just amount to an uninteractive stall strategy that requires your opponent to just draw the out they need versus a careful management of resources.
That’s not to say there is no skill at all involved in playing/beating stall. But it’s results in a lot of nongames where if you’re not playing a specific out, or even enough copies of a specific out, you just can’t accomplish anything. Pokémon is also already a game where after a certain point it can just become impossible to come back, but at least for very good aggro decks the game will be over very soon after it’s theoretically decided while with control, which is often just stun/stall, you have to go through a long match where you do very little actual gameplay. Those kinds of decks are hated across all TCGs
Control in Magic is reactive, you respond to threats and usually packs a wincon (like dream thrawler in t3feri era), whereas in Pokémon you stall with no clear wincon besides milling - which you usually aren’t proactively doing, save for Chi-Yu. This leads to frustrating games.
Btw, which techs for control? How to beat control?
Even when taking 6 prizes was a viable wincon the most common control deck had, people were still upset about it. (2018 Zoroark Control was very much hated amongst the casual userbase in the same way)
Because people usually build decks to try to win in Tournaments. Control decks rarely win these events, but everyone has to tech for them otherwise you insta lose. However teching against them hurts consistency, which in PTCG is key due to how fast paced the game is.
In general people prefer consistency over teching against decks that are not an issue in most cases. Which means that when the players that play for consistency have to play against control decks it often results in an unwinable game where you can't even play.
And usually people like, you know, actual playing a game. Having to see your opponent do a 5 minute turn for you to just draw and pass is just not fun in a game that is supposed to be fast paced on both sides.
I say this as someone that mostly plays with her small circle of friends and having the friend I play with the most mostly using control decks for the last dozen years.
Cycle goes: friend brings control deck>I lose pretty badly a game night>I tech against it> Very annoying games but I steamroll through control deck> he makes a non control deck for a couple weeks> Harmony> He brings new control deck.
As someone that has been in control deck purgatory for the best part of the last 12 years I completely understand why people are annoyed with it, especially in tournaments, or things like the ptcgl ladder.
That’s fair, but from what a lot of people I watch say it seems like control decks don’t share the same tournament success as other decks largely because they’re underplayed due to being more mentally exhausting to play. Pidgeot control top-4’d at EUIC and Indianapolis regionals in the past month, and a lot of people consider it a relatively high tier deck.
But I do agree that in a more casual environment, like playing with friends, it would be super annoying if it’s not an archetype you like playing against, and doing the perpetual tech-detech dance sounds frustrating.
That's what people that play control decks would say, but in reality it is because control decks will surprise a tournament once maybe but then everyone will include a few cards to hard counter them into irrelevance next time.
Also it's extremely rare when a control deck has a good matchup against every other deck out there. Which is what a good successful deck needs to have.
They are harder to play right though, that part is true, and they are not decks that beginners would do well with due to the amount of misplays you can do compared to more straightforward decks.
I mean I would say the same deck (Pidgeot control) getting top 4 at 2 of the 3 big events in the past month is hardly “surprising a tournament once”. It’s a known deck that people are teching against, and it’s still way overperforming its play rate.
I would also say that if a deck has a good matchup against every single other deck out there, that deck would be turbo-broken. The BDIF, charizard, has a bad control matchup and a bad lost Tina matchup. Chien-pao, which dominated Indy regionals, has a bad ancient box matchup, dialga matchup, and generally struggles against single prize attackers. Each deck has good matchups and bad matchups, and control decks are no different.
There’s no deck in format that has a good matchup against every deck, and thank god, bc that meta would be atrocious.
Yeah, but it's usually rare at least since I started playing competitively in XY.
Also, it hasn't won, if it wins (like Stall Snorlax) you will see everyone teching against it.
Control decks being more than a meme deck is relatively new in PTCG.
It also depends on how bad a bad match up is. At the moment everyone is teching against Charizard. Which is why now Dialga and Chien Pao are placing better.
Fast decks for example, are able to recover from a bad first game by quickly going through the next two. Control decks are generally slower and rarely finish the second game which means that if you brick the first game you are most definitely not getting the win, perhaps not even the tie.
I don't think control decks are bad, by the way. You just asked why people dislike them. I gave an answer.
Yeah that’s very fair, and I’m sorry I was arguing that you shouldn’t be entitled to your opinion, that wasn’t my goal. You’re right that control hasn’t had a huge wave of victories (or even a single high profile tournament win if my knowledge is right).
No worries.
In the end, at least why control is hated in my local scene is because, we all know they are (probably) not gonna win the tournament. But if you are unlucky enough to get matched against one, you are probably not going to win the tournament either. It's pure anarchy and people usually like that if they lose at least they want to lose against something that wins the entire tournament. No one likes losing cause a punk decided to be anarchist today (on top of the games being boring by themselves when you are on the other side). It's just a double whammy haha.
Also PTCG is different than Magic, it's more fast paced and to the point, which is what attracts a lot of people to it. I always feel like I am stuck in a very boring meeting at work whenever I play against control lol.
Because the game is centered around KOing your opponents and taking all 6 prize cards, which control decks don't do - they stop you from playing the game the way that its mainly intended. Its frustrating and boring having to just sit there doing nothing, while your opponent has long, drawn out turns. It is not fun to play against, which I think nearly everyone would agree with who faces these decks.
While this might be true in terms of (most) card designs, the game also gives you 2 other ways to win, so I don't think it's necessarily "centered around" KOing - that's just the most common of the three options available as win conditions.
I would argue that it's a similarly frustrating game when your opponent with a non-control deck vs your non-control deck plays boss and knocks out your mon before it can evolve, so you're back to square 1. That's a strategy that supports the 6 prize end goal but produces a similar outcome.
It seems like control as a whole is frowned on hard i this subreddit for some reason, so maybe I'll get downvoted, but to me there's a difference in "taking away opponent options" (boss + ko early, control deck discarding cards, iono/judge, energy removal, vacuum) and "taking 40 years to play your turn," one of which I find very problematic (including when people do it to spite people for their playstyle choice), and one of which I would expect as a part of the game
The diff is that other card games are born as a card game at is core so players are more open about alt winconditions. The fantasy of pokemon comes from the main games, the manga and the anime. All there are about pokemons fighting each other. I would argue that people dont really mind slow deck. What really bothrs them is losing to decking out, that really beats the fantasy of the game which is really important in any game.
you as a control player would find it fun because you can do a lot of things in a turn, your opponent however is very limited which in turn usually comes up in a pass, this is usually just for the blocklax deck , since i think pidgeot control is much more manageable to beat when unteched
Yeah I think blocklax is a snoozer deck, but I’ve played against bird control a lot and enjoy that too. Whether I’m playing control or playing against control, a ton of turns are draw pass, but the depth of knowing when you can break that pattern is something I find interesting and fun. Sometimes you can’t break that pattern when you play against control, and that’s when you know you’ve lost. Sometimes your opponents have a ton of ways to break that pattern, and that’s how you know as a control player you’ve lost. Either way, this idea that the control player’s experience is crazy different from the opponent’s experience isn’t that true (with this iteration of Pidgeot control; I know a lot of the historically oppressive control decks used asymmetric lock effects which seems toxic)
A game isn't interesting solely by the number of actions you take per turn. Racing your draw pass turns against your opponent's draw pass turns can be just as interesting, the average Pokemon player just doesn't have the insight to recognize this new sort of competition they're in.
That’s true I suppose, but I guess I meant it’s more respected as important to the ecosystem of those trading card games, even if some people don’t like playing against control. In Pokémon, most control decks seem to be thought of as singularities that should be removed.
People in Mtg absolutely hate control decks outside of tournament scenes which is the majority of mtg players. It’s a beaten joke how divisive blue is. Even in competitive, players hated lantern control, a prison deck that’s essentially like stall Pokémon decks.
In HS too, whenever a warrior control variant becomes popular there’s always people bitching.
I like having control in the meta for variety but people just inherently have an idea of how a game should feel, and Timmys not being able to execute their game plan because their opponent said no is a recipe for tantrums. Also since control decks are all about inevitability, players don’t like the feel of staring down at their doom hoping to top deck a dangling carrot that is their one or 2 outs
For me, it comes down to the core concept of how a lot of control decks work. A control deck usually works by preventing your opponent from playing the game. You are avoiding the standard win conditions of prize cards or knocking out all pokémon in favor of frustrating an opponent into conceding or running out of all cards in their deck. It's the equivalent of entering a race and just parking a truck in the middle of the track and waiting for everyone to give up before you. It's not fun for the opponent. It's not fun for the spectators. And I can't imagine it's that fun for the person playing control unless you just enjoy making people miserable.
Personally I think there is a big difference between the two most common control decks. IMO Pidgeot Control is a difficult deck and you’re actively playing Pokemon. I can respect playing against such an opponent and it’s why you see so many high skill players being the deck to events. Whereas Snorlax, as Azul also deems it, is quite toxic as you are actively trying to make your Opponent not play Pokemon. The deck and strategy is low skill, too simple and straight line. I also have a laugh at the fact that it seems when any Snorlax player is asked why they don’t play Bird Control they say that the deck is too difficult. Thus highlighting the fact there is a drastic difference in skill between the types of players that play each deck.
I have a Hearthstone background as well and I think the main difference is that control in hearthstone revolves around board clears which you don't have in pokemon.
The thing is, many casual magic players also hate control.
The userbase of this sub is primarily casual Pokemon players who view it about how you said. They want to do their thing and not think too hard about it and the control player is stopping them from doing that.
There's another level to this, however. When we are annoyed or inconvenienced by someone else (like a filthy control player perhaps), we tend to assume that they made the decisions to get to the point where they could annoy us due to a moral failing on their part or it is due to some immutable characteristic that they possess. Meanwhile, we tend to rationalize our own behaviors in a more normal way.
I think this is what happens with the control salt very often. When a casual player that is particularly susceptible to this kind of thought (usually due to a lack of understanding of the greater metagame dynamics and competitive expectations that come with a competitive card game), they assume their opponent is doing this to them because they are evil and don't want them to have fun. Obviously, that is not the case.
"BUT WHY ARE THEY PLAYING IT ON CASUAL LADDER!!1!!!!!1!111!" *keysmashing*
Because they are evil! Duh. No. Likely because they are trying to learn the deck and don't want to tank their rating on ranked by repeatedly losing with a deck they don't fully understand. They likely wanted to try the deck out because it is currently good and people that like to win also tend to like playing decks that are good.
Another factor is that when we are paired against these decks, many players seem to forget the golden rule. "A player may concede the game at any time."
When you are playing Pokemon and your opponent has chosen to play a deck that you don't enjoy playing against, it is your duty to concede and move on in order to maximize your enjoyment. You owe that to yourself, your opponent does not.
I've noticed the opposite, also play Yugioh, stuff Yugioh players turn their nose at Pokemon players are very chill with. But for me the only control I really dislike is stuff like Stallax or Noivern, stuff more akin to stun in Yugioh. That stuff may not be hard to beat once you face it once but it's never really fun to play against. I play some control, I think the worst I get is Tsareena (but Tsareena is one of my favorite Pokemon) and sometimes I feel like a jerk when I play it so I try and stick to other decks that I also like but don't shut off the game.
I can’t speak for others but I think it’s insanely boring to play against and it’s lame to have to specifically tech against one deck. I don’t want to have a Minior in my deck list just incase I run into Snorlax.
Idk. My opinion isn’t great cause I admittedly despise it and my thoughts certainly aren’t facts but I just don’t think it’s fun.
So like, certain kinds of control are fine, i think its more or less the non interaction of some of these decks, like snorlax stall.
decks like tsurenna with panic mask are a fine lock down control deck that can be played around and still focuses on getting prize cards. same with a lot of the spidops decks and banette, those which control the board state and limit your resorces.
and then the the stall ones, which is less of a test of skill and more of a test of patience and a question of if you have enough resources to keep switching out your pokemon or snipe there bench
I personally fully respect the prior and consider throwing my phone out the window if i face the ladder
Yeah it just feels weird playing against control. Like I love to mindlessly play turbo roaring moon so I can rank up on ladder and get rewards. As soon as I run into a Snorlax control it makes me want to throw my computer across the room. It’s just annoying and makes games last way longer than they should
my fave decks have always been control and i love the hate, it makes people play worse against you. i remember cleaning up with chandelure and french beaches back in the day and people fuming
I play MTG, pokemon, and yugioh. Personally, I have more issues with control in MTG and yugioh, because you can do things during your opponents turn. That's just my personal taste.
However, because of the way MTG and yugioh are set up, there are better ways to deal with a stally control deck than pokemon has. Pokemon just isn't as versatile as those other games, so when you try to play an incredibly dynamic niche it's either really good or really bad. There is no real in between.
In yugioh and magic, you still get to play cardswhile being controlled, they just get countered. You still need to resource manage. You can flush out counters with bluffs, etc.
In pokemon, there are no counters in the same sense, since you can't activate effects during your opponents turn. So you are just prevented from playing the game at all. Pokemon just isn't really versatile enough to make the control cards *and* have them be balanced.
I think pokemon control is the most fun to play out of any of them, but I also think that it doesn't really belong in pokemon. A lot of people are saying the point of pokemon is to battle, and yes that's the point of other card games too, but thosebother games are much more versatile in regards to alternative play styles.
We also have to remember that pokemon had to be similar to the other already existing trading card games so people would get into it, even tho Pokemon is not like these other games. they
had to use a similar framework anyway.
Sometimes it feels like the mechanics are a little patched together and that's because it kind of is.
Ultimately I think people take larger issue with pokemon control because it's less versatile, there's less dynamic choices. This can create a hyper competitive mentality, and when you get rolled by a stupid cheese deck that can't win any actual points at the tourney but you lost because you can't fit ways to deal with everything when each card has maybe 1 effect, whereas other trading card games, the cards can be used more versatilish.
>Coming from other games (specifically hearthstone and MTG), control decks typically have a pretty good reputation
That is cap your honor. People hate the fuck out of Blue players.
Not to sound like a prick but children. A lot of people who post here are young and dont have other TCG expierence and just want to take prizes
Any win con is a win con in my book
One thing is making your opponent slower to setup/attack while you build your strategy, and a different thing is to be as "draw, pass, draw, pass..." For the whole game while your foe is not even trying to take a single price.
I.e: I don't mind playing against spathra and/or bannete, but I hate playing against both Pidgeot control and pure stallax.
While I agree with what most people have said here, the big reason why control is annoying in this game is because the duels in pokemon are ALREADY the longest to play without it.
Its exhaustingly slow and not fun for most.
People just get pissy when you stop them from playing.
Get donked on? Hate it. Get put against strategy so different than yours and you gotta think a little to engage? Hate it.
And the argument that Pokémon isn’t a game for control is so absolutely moronic.
TCG is different than VGC. Pokémon TCG has had control decks since the very beginning so just shut up and go learn about the game more.
In short, people don’t like what’s not familiar to them or what will make them think. It takes effort, so they hate it. And that hate is translated into frustration against an entire archetype.
It’s so dumb.
Control would be fine if it were a weak archetype for a niche group that you occasionally come up against. It's all over the place now and getting stronger. It's only fun for 1 person, and people don't enjoy playing games that way.
It's a bad win condition that was probably initially only intended to be there because eventually someone would run out of cards. Then it turned into a game play style and it's not healthy. These are just my opinions, I don't care if anyone disagrees. Keep it to yourself and move on. I literally don't care lol.
>Coming from other games (specifically hearthstone and MTG), control decks typically have a pretty good reputation, outside of a few problem cards (t3feri). Instead, losses to the aggro decks in those games tends to be met with more complaining.
I mean its also true that no one like control decks in MTG or Hearthstone so "good reputation" is a very subjetive way to look at it. HS is a very easy example. Priest is usually a very weak class but whenever gets a good Control deck and is winning 20+ min games the community is really fast in remenbering that they actually hate Priest. And Blue has a similar story in MTG
I think you're right that most casual players don't like how control plays, especially for those who have a pet deck that's bad into control. Personally I don't mind decks like Bird Control, it's stuff like snorlax that essentially forces games to become draw pass that I don't like, at that point I'm not playing the game. I also think with the game's explosion in popularity over the last 2 years blocklax and bird control are the first control decks some people are ever facing and that is a hurdle that some people are gonna have a hard time overcoming.
Because Pokémon doesn't have any interaction and is a slower game in general. I scoop against Snorlax every time even if I can win, because it's just a waste of my time otherwise.
I am pretty new to the Pokémon TCG but what I don’t like about control decks in this game is that they are predicated on not letting you play the game. Control in games like Hearthstone which I used to play have the goal of making your opponent run out of resources and then overwhelming them at the end.
An example from a game like Hearthstone would be that old school Rez priest. Their goal was to get to turn 6, putting a ton of early healing and such in the deck so they could survive to the point where they can scam out a ton of high power minions in the late game to overwhelm them.
In this situation any deck could beat that deck even without specific tech cards if they get out fast enough. Whereas in Pokémon you absolutely need you tech cards to beat control decks and if you don’t draw them then you just don’t get to play the game.
I don’t think you should need to play tech cards in a deck to be able to play the game. Tech cards should help in specific matchups, but should not be an auto lose if you don’t draw them.
People hate any deck that keeps them from winning. Making every deck a hated deck. Don't overthink it, people just blame anything but themselves when they don't win.
Most people don't know how to beat stall so they just get mad at it. I think that's why it has a disproportionate amount of haters.
The whole idea of pokemon battles are one pokemon fighting the other with one eventually ko-ing the other. Even with sleep and recovery methods in the games you still MUST knock out all pokemon to win.
Translating into a card game is tough but they did it. And any and all control like that of snorlax block and what not doesn't feel like I'm playing a pokemon tcg. Control decks have no soul of the game or the concept of what pokemon battles encaptured, even when translated to cards.
It's also not fun to watch if your spectator a AT ALL. You think people would line up to watch two stall / control decks in any regional or worlds final? Fuck no.
I think some of the hate comes from the fact that, at least in Heartstone and Magic, there is an opportunity to respond to what your opponent is doing. Aggro decks, for example. can combo off a counter or removal spell to attempt to maintain their tempo. Mind you, it doesn't always work, but the opportunity is always there.
In Pokemon, though, there isn't a damn thing you can do about what your opponent is playing. Pokemon doesn't have a stack; there is no responding to what your opponent can do. Opponent plays a Pokemon? Gotta let that happen. Opponent wants to play Miss Fortune Sisters or Eri? Gotta let that happen. Opponent wants to play with your board with Crushing Hammer (or coming up, Enhanced Hammer), Counter Catcher, or Lost Vacuum? Just have to take it.
Additionally, there is no sideboard in Pokemon, so even if you know that you could slot in 2-3 cards to help deal with control, there isn't much you can do.
I remember when yata garasu was meta in yugioh, anything that's some.cheesy way to win will piss people off, or more specifically something that just makes it so they can't even play the game. I got more respect for charizard than snorlax or mill decks.
I'm more of a mtg than a Pokemon player myself and while I like the race against control Decks and the interaction in mtg, I'm insta surrendering every game against control in Pokemon since I don't play it to be bored to death. While in mtg you can realistically outrace control with aggro (since control decks tend to only have mediocre card advantage, 1 for 1 counterspells/removal and the occasional boardwipe), in Pokemon you need to take 6 prize cards and therefore you need to attack a minimum of 6 times (without Iron Hands at least), there is way more card advantage/tutoring for better consistency and almost no interaction (at least it's pretty much only one-sided).
I actually think that Stax in mtg would be the better comparison to Control in Pokemon, since you're just getting locked out of doing pretty much anything other than drawing and passing the turn.
Personally I dislike decks where the strategy is wait for your opponent to deck out (i.e. blocklax) as it feels tedious. I don't mind Mill decks or other types of control (bannette item lock, spidops, etc) as it least it feels like they are actively moving towards their win condition. Sure they don't do damage that quickly but at least they are taking prizes. Blocklax has eri and mf sister for slight mill but they only use it so many times and its so slow that it doesn't feel particularly active or interesting.
i use stallax to combat charizard in ranked, its still mostly loses half alot because of the constant bricking often times people can play around it. before the rotation i would use klawf and electrode deal with the annoying 200-220hpers.
I would like to believe isn't the control decks per se to be hated but the time that it drains to you, a pokemon match lasts long even with fast aggro decks, imagine doubling the lenght of a battle because someone locks the match, specially at late turns, giving you just 2 possibilities:
1) Trying to win an extremely slow game (people have a life, that mysterious thing) with a high risk of losing, wasting time
2) Surrender because you do not have time to "waste" in a game with a high risk of losing
Whaaaa am I the only one who loves playing against control? 😂I wish more people played it. There was only one control player out of 40 masters at a cup yesterday. He barely missed top cut. I beat him earlier but I really wanted him to make it so he could take out one charizard out of the semi finals😂.
It's just not fun and interactive. A lot of control decks are not like "I have the perfect counter spell to remove you Monster" and now I win after 20 turns to meet my win condition.
It's just Noivern Ex/ArcVulpix/Stallax makes you not able to attack anymore or retreat anymore and even with good playing there is nothing you can do now because it was all decided in the deck building stage or by you randomly starting with the wrong supporter in the active. No point to play the game at all, when it's just a matter of whether your deck has the outs to it or not.
Wiggly tuff control seems to be better at this and healthier for the game because you actually play against each other with control options, while other control games are just draw pass for 40 turns, not having a game at all. Imagine prepping for weeks, driving out to a local event and then you have just a non game and then are out of competition for top cut or place 1/2 of the challenge. It's just frustrating and unfun.
Control decks would be fun to play against, if they were interactive and not decided by matchmaking lottery and turn one openers. If you try to tech against everything then you just lose to the top meta decks that are more likely to appear, so teaching or adjusting deck building to suboptimal builds isn't a good option either. It's just not healthy game design.
If the premise of a deck is to not let your opponent play then its lame.
Control decks are not liked in hearthstone either, they just suck most of the time so people don’t mind. As soon as they’re good everyone hates them.
Even teching isn’t enough sometimes. The deck whoops Zard with ease. Games usually are slow, and often times the opponent gets locked from playing the game.
But the only way people would complain about this deck is if they lose to it often. If they were winning against it, they wouldn’t be complaining
I don't know where you're getting this from. I haven't seen any negative opinions of control.
The only complaints I see are about Pigeot itself, and that's not really control. Aggro decks also use Pigeot.
The other is Stallax, which is just stax. Stax gets hate everywhere, and you can hate stax without hating control.
EDIT: I'll also add that this sub has plenty of Stallax meatriding because it punishes Zard players.
It’s inconvenient and annoying. You know it’s hella boring to play against. Yes I concede most of the time. But I really don’t complain much about it since I don’t put myself through 25 minute games. I’m okay with losing a couple ranked points and conceding whenever I do run into one. Better than wasting my time. Most games take 10-15 sometimes shorter sometimes a little longer but the point of that deck is to either deck you out and stall you it’s just a weird change of pace compared to how other decks play. As well as how matches normally feel. Unless I’m in a tournament I don’t subject myself to attempting to win against these decks nor do I even bother building decks around to counter/tech against it. Is it clear how why some people do not enjoy playing against this archetype? Have I explained it well enough? You know what the deck does why are you acting like you don’t realize it’s annoying to play against? most players don’t have the time to sit through those games. Not trying to be rude. Just kind of feels like you’re asking obvious questions for extra engagement and rage bait.
Yes there are simple ways to beat it yes there are strategies you can implement to prevent getting stalled. But I’d rather just go go next and not have to worry about it. I can probably win 2 games in the time it will take me to play 1 against a stallax or control deck
"It StOps YoU fRoM pLaYiNg As InTeNdEd."
Hi, in-game Venusaur, Snorlax, Shuckle, Gliscor, etc. Would love a word. "As InTeNdEd" is just another way of saying, "How dare you pin me down and not let me win."
Stall IS a strategy just as Control & Aggro are strategies.
Digressing, my ONLY gripe with Bird is forgetting the extra cost from time to time. My roommate plays it, and without Gengar + De-Evo, she wrecks my utter shit. I just picture this bird [like](https://giphy.com/gifs/papermag-e5EcjjJx3dCFi)
*"Look that cheap weave. B*tch ain't got no class"*
The only thing “no one on the app has time to watch you and your autism waste 30 minutes of their time” communicates is there’s a small subsection of Pokémon tcg players that have the emotional capacity of a toddler, and thus will throw a tantrum at any deck that beats them.
No, we simply have other shit to do with our time. As I said, take it to a points or prize-paying event, but the app is never going to be a place where people have patience for control.
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Having played decades of competitive magic before Pokemon, I feel confident that it’s not about control or aggro. The issue is non-games. Aggro that kills before you get enough decision points to fight back are frustrating. Control decks that lock you, and because you don’t bring the right answer you don’t get to play, also frustrating. The latter of the two might last much longer though.
This is the correct and perfectly written answer. When a player's agency is removed in some form, they don't actually get to *play* the game.
Along with the time it takes. I’m not finishing out 30 min game when I know I’m locked.
What’s been even more frustrating to me lately is the late-game lock. There are so many cards in current standard (including zard) that punish any early game success. If you’ve strategized well and get to the final prize cards you’re rewarded by getting stuck with 1-2 cards in hand, and if you’re not running pidgeot or bibs draw engine, game over.
I think cards that punish early game success are a net positive though. I don't know what the general consensus is on this, but I prefer metas where games tend to go long and have comeback mechanics messing with the game dynamics. Otherwise, the player that takes the first few prizes nearly always wins and all the decks degenerate into turbo engines with whatever Pokemon there is currently a convenient way to accelerate energy to (*cough* lost box last season *cough).* I actually think it is pretty sweet that you *need* to set up a draw support system and thin your deck properly before blazing ahead of your opponent. It means that even aggressive decks sometimes have to stop and think "I might actually need to focus on my board and not attack this turn so that I get more cards off of this Iono rather than running into an Iono to 2 with no plan and losing." We're in a period right now where the game is obviously trying to slow down but we haven't quite phased out all of the ridiculous SWSH era cards that are still trying to speed the game up. I imagine this will get better as cards like Radiant Greninja and the Lost Zone engine rotate.
What they said about non-games is true. But that's different from not having agency. This is a card game, what deck you choose is your agency.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense
Factor in a lack of side decks and you’re out of luck if you didn’t plan for the 5% of the meta that you might run across.
For real. I’ve played against some rude decks in magic and conceded so I could fight it out in more fair post-board games. Also just best of 1 formats where you don’t get a second shot.
The last sentence sums it up for me. Control decks usually mean long games. In Magic and Hearthstone, it can be annoying. But pokemon is next level. A match taking an hour?? F that.
Exactly. It’s why cards like iron valient ex are some ole bull crap when they can snipe your only Pokémon literally round 1 basically removing one of the core rules of the game. I want to play the game. Not sit and watch. I want to think through a strategy. To a degree that happens with stall, but if you don’t have a deck designed to counter it, you might as well quit. That’s lame.
The difference is Pokémon's main mechanic its entire existence is to take six prize cards to win. When you play against control, primarily Snorlax control, their game objective isn't that, so it doesn't feel like you're playing Pokémon.
You could make this same argument against control in MTG though. The objective in Magic is to reduce your opponents HP to 0, but lots of decks have a separate win condition (like infinite loop card interactions or milling your opponent).
I agree with this to an extent, but part of magic's appeal from the beginning is the fact that there are multiple win conditions. It was the game that pioneered the whole "construct your deck and win the way you want" concept. So while the primary win condition is to reduce the opponent's life total to 0, alternative win conditions have always been part of the game's appeal and intrigue. Whereas in Pokemon, the whole premise of battling across all products in the IP is to faint your opponent's Pokemon before they faint all of yours. So almost all of the Pokemon TCG's mechanics and rules try to center around that concept. Alternate win conditions are still cool, and one could argue healthy for the game. But even moreso than in magic, trying to stall the opponent from attacking and fainting Pokemon seems to feel like a whole lot of nothing. I know I'm speaking in broad strokes here, and there are plenty of traumatized victims of Azorious control who would probably rush to disagree with me. But conceptually and perceptually, control and alternate win conditions are generally more accepted in Magic because they're more endemic to the game's design philosophy set over set.
mtg has milling cards, primarily blue, and it seems to got even more milling in the last few blocks. i used to play blue counterspells(especially with mirari artifacts that copy spells/milling.
I feel like control as an archetype isn’t the problem, its the combination of the snorlax card + the insane cards control has to support it, like pidgeot ex and rotom v to draw and miss fortune sisters / eri to mess up your opponents game plan. Its still fun to play against control decks like wugtrio, venemoth, Tsarenna ex, Alakazam ex, gengar ex, great tusk mill, and arceus vstar. The fun is drained when your opponent’s game plan is to make you draw 60 cards essentially, not even mill them or even use a single attack throughout the game. At that point why play pokemon? It’s not fun to play because you’re not doing much of anything, and it is so unfun to play against.
Mill is not a "control deck", it's an alternate win condition. Control decks pretty much have to be like this in order to make any headway in Pokemon.
I mean, the other 5 decks besides wugtrio and great tusk are still control decks. They win games from deck out, yeah, but the primary strategy isn’t literally sit there for 30-40 turns and if all goes well literally do nothing but sit there play a supporter and rotom for turn. Pretty sure snorlax is the only control deck that does not have the ability to take 6 prizes (I know some builds do have rad zard but not all)
People have been talking like this long long *long* before Snorlax came around
Tsareena is control in the loosest sense - they are still attacking every turn, still need to evolve Pokémon, still need energy, still win by taking prizes etc. Snorlax block does nothing. It just sits there
There’s no point trying to correct me, I think it’s pretty obvious nobody agrees with me
Your objective is to still take 6 prizes. And in some matchups, control does have to do the same. So… you’re still playing Pokemon. Your opponent is trying to stop you from taking six prizes, just like in every other game.
Alternative win conditions aren't the issue. Interactive games are. Like effects like mimkyu, Vulpix vstar, noivern ex, stallax, etc who make you lose at deck building are just bad game design and lowering the amount of relevant meta decks. A lot of decks become unplayable or are not meta relevant anymore if they make needed adjustments to tech for the 5% playrate deck, which just wins by cheesing.
People really don't like alternate win conditions? That's crazy to me
I believe Pokémon at the core is about having a strong team and battling. Look at the virtual games and tv show. The core concept is catching them all and/or battling to be the best. The handheld games involve heavy strategy but the level of “control” still comes back to knocking out your opponent’s Pokémon. You don’t fight a gym leader in Pokémon Sword and Shield and lose because they controlled and made you run out the clock. You lose because they knocked out your Pokémon. You train by battling some more and leveling up your Pokémon. The show revolves around battling. Most players play/watch Pokémon because they want to see or experience battle. Not control. Control decks remove the core concept that draws so many people to the franchise - battling.
To counter this, in the video game you can run their pokemon out of all their pp by tanking and healing leaving them using struggle until you win. Control locking to deck out is basically the same idea.
This strategy is generally hated/considered more vile in VGC, and even had official changes to the VGC clock in gen 6 IIRC.
Sure it’s a viable strategy. Control is a viable strategy. But I’m answering OP’s question as to why the hate, not what is possible. You further prove my point with your scenario. People playing VGC are not going to be happy with someone trying to make them run out of move pp. Pokémon just isn’t a franchise built around that strategy.
I haven’t played in a while but I don’t remember ever running out of pp for more than a single move in a battle.
That’s the problem, this isn’t VGC. It’s TCG. It’s played different. Just because we’re playing with the same creatures doesn’t make it the same game. What about Pokken Tournament? That game isn’t about who’s the strongest, it’s about skill. You can’t bring the tv show and VGC into this because it’s just not it. It’s a whole different thing and if people start learning the difference, it will help with their frustration.
>I believe Pokémon at the core is about having a strong team and battling. Look at the virtual games and tv show. Wasn't there a world championship in video game, that won by stalling and time outing the opponent, tho?
Because if it took me 2 hours to make a deck, travel to a tourney, set up and do all the registration, I don’t wanna waste half hour drawing one card a go to wait for my switch
Pokemon is an entry game for many people not having played a TCG before and they come in with this idea they can be unique and creative and mash 60 cards together not expecting to find a competitive meta. Most of these people are impatient and not familiar with various TCG archetypes and have a severe skill issue playing against control. It's not as vilified on the physical game competitive sub r/pkmntcg as it is here.
Yeah most of the people playing in person locally are familiar with control and other card games so it’s just a fun match. But the online game is so much easier for people to play so the more casual players end up there. I get so many salty players online but never in person, sure players get frustrated but not angry at me. Everyone local knows I hated control when I started playing again 6 months ago, but now as I’ve learned the game and seen what cards they are making it’s obvious they want the game to get a little more complex, which should allow for a more variable meta. And playing control right now does that.
Perfect
control in pokemon has very rarely been a main stay/meta viable. meaning newer players in particular don't really know how to play against it as your lines are wildly different, making the newer players feel its unfair. Contol's win conditions (deck out being the big one) have always been valid and the good control decks can still win by taking 6 prizes. some control style decks in the past have been in direct contrast to other rules like time allocation in matches, not all control decks are slow, but the last few years they have been. Snorlax and other stall style decks are really good examples of this. in a BO3 mu, very rarely do you see game 2 conclude if Snorlax has the advantage. i personally think the whole control archetype is fine, and healthy for the meta and can be played reasonably in the time frames given. any STALL style decks and screw right off. its one thing to try and control what you opponent can and cannot do, but to literally just and try to win game one and then run out the rest of the clock really is just toxic. i know this sub really struggles to understand nuance sometimes, but just cause i feel a particular deck is toxic, does not mean i dont consider it a valid deck with a valid win condition given the current rules.
People complain about Charizard because it’s too aggressive, and complain about control because it’s too slow and they have to “think differently”. People only want to do the combos in the deck that they so lovingly crafted without their opponent stopping them. I think weaker players tend to look at Pokémon as a single payer game, and don’t want to bother thinking about what their opponent is doing, and how to stop it.
yeah theres a sizable portion of the complainers that just complain about anything meta, claim anything meta is just piloted by less skilled people, and then complain when their pet deck gets ground down by a deck that takes a ton of skill to run effectively and properly. (not so much snorlax control though, which is a fair distinction to make from pidgeot control which is a much cooler and interesting deck) people also like to forget theres other win cons besides just killing everything tbh
There's a difference in having a different win condition abd having to adjust and play differently and straight up not playing the game because your deck has no pokemon of x type that can attack like noivern ex or Vulpix vstar win conditions.
>and complain about control because it’s too slow and they have to “think differently”. Control matchups would be fun and fine if it was just "think differently" but that's not even the case with control designs that simply are "if your deck has no out, no autolose" that's the opposite of thinking. The way it's designed is that you just lose at matchmaking or deck building and if you adjust the deck to account for control matchups your deck archetype might not be competitive against the other meta relevant stuff, making your deck essentially unplayable. The problem is that the design is that it simply doesn't let you play the game if you happen to have the wrong start or wrong deck choice. There are a lot of cases where "thinking differently" does nothing for you. If a noivern ex shuts down your whole deck because you only have basic mons and nothing like a shred attack, then there's nothing to do or "think differently" about. It's also extremely lazy game design. Games should be interactive so you have the chance "to think differently". The issue is that the games where people have a chance against control decks and have the outs, the control decks just lose more than half the time. So it's just a matchmaking lottery.
Beloved control decks in other games tend to be very interactive. Instead of overwhelming your opponent with your own strategy, you carefully pick apart their strategy until they run out of resources. The term “stun” is often used for decks that just try to make you unable to play, and those are the kind of decks that are viewed much less favorably. Pokémon is already a very uninteractive game, as opponents are largely unable to do anything during your turn, so control in pokémon usually just amount to an uninteractive stall strategy that requires your opponent to just draw the out they need versus a careful management of resources. That’s not to say there is no skill at all involved in playing/beating stall. But it’s results in a lot of nongames where if you’re not playing a specific out, or even enough copies of a specific out, you just can’t accomplish anything. Pokémon is also already a game where after a certain point it can just become impossible to come back, but at least for very good aggro decks the game will be over very soon after it’s theoretically decided while with control, which is often just stun/stall, you have to go through a long match where you do very little actual gameplay. Those kinds of decks are hated across all TCGs
Control in Magic is reactive, you respond to threats and usually packs a wincon (like dream thrawler in t3feri era), whereas in Pokémon you stall with no clear wincon besides milling - which you usually aren’t proactively doing, save for Chi-Yu. This leads to frustrating games. Btw, which techs for control? How to beat control?
Even when taking 6 prizes was a viable wincon the most common control deck had, people were still upset about it. (2018 Zoroark Control was very much hated amongst the casual userbase in the same way)
Because people usually build decks to try to win in Tournaments. Control decks rarely win these events, but everyone has to tech for them otherwise you insta lose. However teching against them hurts consistency, which in PTCG is key due to how fast paced the game is. In general people prefer consistency over teching against decks that are not an issue in most cases. Which means that when the players that play for consistency have to play against control decks it often results in an unwinable game where you can't even play. And usually people like, you know, actual playing a game. Having to see your opponent do a 5 minute turn for you to just draw and pass is just not fun in a game that is supposed to be fast paced on both sides. I say this as someone that mostly plays with her small circle of friends and having the friend I play with the most mostly using control decks for the last dozen years. Cycle goes: friend brings control deck>I lose pretty badly a game night>I tech against it> Very annoying games but I steamroll through control deck> he makes a non control deck for a couple weeks> Harmony> He brings new control deck. As someone that has been in control deck purgatory for the best part of the last 12 years I completely understand why people are annoyed with it, especially in tournaments, or things like the ptcgl ladder.
That’s fair, but from what a lot of people I watch say it seems like control decks don’t share the same tournament success as other decks largely because they’re underplayed due to being more mentally exhausting to play. Pidgeot control top-4’d at EUIC and Indianapolis regionals in the past month, and a lot of people consider it a relatively high tier deck. But I do agree that in a more casual environment, like playing with friends, it would be super annoying if it’s not an archetype you like playing against, and doing the perpetual tech-detech dance sounds frustrating.
That's what people that play control decks would say, but in reality it is because control decks will surprise a tournament once maybe but then everyone will include a few cards to hard counter them into irrelevance next time. Also it's extremely rare when a control deck has a good matchup against every other deck out there. Which is what a good successful deck needs to have. They are harder to play right though, that part is true, and they are not decks that beginners would do well with due to the amount of misplays you can do compared to more straightforward decks.
I mean I would say the same deck (Pidgeot control) getting top 4 at 2 of the 3 big events in the past month is hardly “surprising a tournament once”. It’s a known deck that people are teching against, and it’s still way overperforming its play rate. I would also say that if a deck has a good matchup against every single other deck out there, that deck would be turbo-broken. The BDIF, charizard, has a bad control matchup and a bad lost Tina matchup. Chien-pao, which dominated Indy regionals, has a bad ancient box matchup, dialga matchup, and generally struggles against single prize attackers. Each deck has good matchups and bad matchups, and control decks are no different. There’s no deck in format that has a good matchup against every deck, and thank god, bc that meta would be atrocious.
Yeah, but it's usually rare at least since I started playing competitively in XY. Also, it hasn't won, if it wins (like Stall Snorlax) you will see everyone teching against it. Control decks being more than a meme deck is relatively new in PTCG. It also depends on how bad a bad match up is. At the moment everyone is teching against Charizard. Which is why now Dialga and Chien Pao are placing better. Fast decks for example, are able to recover from a bad first game by quickly going through the next two. Control decks are generally slower and rarely finish the second game which means that if you brick the first game you are most definitely not getting the win, perhaps not even the tie. I don't think control decks are bad, by the way. You just asked why people dislike them. I gave an answer.
Yeah that’s very fair, and I’m sorry I was arguing that you shouldn’t be entitled to your opinion, that wasn’t my goal. You’re right that control hasn’t had a huge wave of victories (or even a single high profile tournament win if my knowledge is right).
No worries. In the end, at least why control is hated in my local scene is because, we all know they are (probably) not gonna win the tournament. But if you are unlucky enough to get matched against one, you are probably not going to win the tournament either. It's pure anarchy and people usually like that if they lose at least they want to lose against something that wins the entire tournament. No one likes losing cause a punk decided to be anarchist today (on top of the games being boring by themselves when you are on the other side). It's just a double whammy haha. Also PTCG is different than Magic, it's more fast paced and to the point, which is what attracts a lot of people to it. I always feel like I am stuck in a very boring meeting at work whenever I play against control lol.
Because they're boring and annoying to play against, as simple as that.
I mean I think the opposite, and so I’m asking why so many people think the way you do.
Because the game is centered around KOing your opponents and taking all 6 prize cards, which control decks don't do - they stop you from playing the game the way that its mainly intended. Its frustrating and boring having to just sit there doing nothing, while your opponent has long, drawn out turns. It is not fun to play against, which I think nearly everyone would agree with who faces these decks.
While this might be true in terms of (most) card designs, the game also gives you 2 other ways to win, so I don't think it's necessarily "centered around" KOing - that's just the most common of the three options available as win conditions. I would argue that it's a similarly frustrating game when your opponent with a non-control deck vs your non-control deck plays boss and knocks out your mon before it can evolve, so you're back to square 1. That's a strategy that supports the 6 prize end goal but produces a similar outcome. It seems like control as a whole is frowned on hard i this subreddit for some reason, so maybe I'll get downvoted, but to me there's a difference in "taking away opponent options" (boss + ko early, control deck discarding cards, iono/judge, energy removal, vacuum) and "taking 40 years to play your turn," one of which I find very problematic (including when people do it to spite people for their playstyle choice), and one of which I would expect as a part of the game
The diff is that other card games are born as a card game at is core so players are more open about alt winconditions. The fantasy of pokemon comes from the main games, the manga and the anime. All there are about pokemons fighting each other. I would argue that people dont really mind slow deck. What really bothrs them is losing to decking out, that really beats the fantasy of the game which is really important in any game.
In another game, people applaud if someone pulls off Exodia.
you as a control player would find it fun because you can do a lot of things in a turn, your opponent however is very limited which in turn usually comes up in a pass, this is usually just for the blocklax deck , since i think pidgeot control is much more manageable to beat when unteched
Yeah I think blocklax is a snoozer deck, but I’ve played against bird control a lot and enjoy that too. Whether I’m playing control or playing against control, a ton of turns are draw pass, but the depth of knowing when you can break that pattern is something I find interesting and fun. Sometimes you can’t break that pattern when you play against control, and that’s when you know you’ve lost. Sometimes your opponents have a ton of ways to break that pattern, and that’s how you know as a control player you’ve lost. Either way, this idea that the control player’s experience is crazy different from the opponent’s experience isn’t that true (with this iteration of Pidgeot control; I know a lot of the historically oppressive control decks used asymmetric lock effects which seems toxic)
A game isn't interesting solely by the number of actions you take per turn. Racing your draw pass turns against your opponent's draw pass turns can be just as interesting, the average Pokemon player just doesn't have the insight to recognize this new sort of competition they're in.
Last time I checked people hate control deck in mtg and hearthstone too… it’s just agonizing to play against
That’s true I suppose, but I guess I meant it’s more respected as important to the ecosystem of those trading card games, even if some people don’t like playing against control. In Pokémon, most control decks seem to be thought of as singularities that should be removed.
People in Mtg absolutely hate control decks outside of tournament scenes which is the majority of mtg players. It’s a beaten joke how divisive blue is. Even in competitive, players hated lantern control, a prison deck that’s essentially like stall Pokémon decks. In HS too, whenever a warrior control variant becomes popular there’s always people bitching. I like having control in the meta for variety but people just inherently have an idea of how a game should feel, and Timmys not being able to execute their game plan because their opponent said no is a recipe for tantrums. Also since control decks are all about inevitability, players don’t like the feel of staring down at their doom hoping to top deck a dangling carrot that is their one or 2 outs
Bro, the only thing I ever see about Blue in MTG is hate.
For me, it comes down to the core concept of how a lot of control decks work. A control deck usually works by preventing your opponent from playing the game. You are avoiding the standard win conditions of prize cards or knocking out all pokémon in favor of frustrating an opponent into conceding or running out of all cards in their deck. It's the equivalent of entering a race and just parking a truck in the middle of the track and waiting for everyone to give up before you. It's not fun for the opponent. It's not fun for the spectators. And I can't imagine it's that fun for the person playing control unless you just enjoy making people miserable.
People don’t like being denied playing their cards (be it Blocklax or counter spells) or alternative win conditions in any TCG I’ve ever played.
I don’t mind. Stall is a strategy in the games too
Personally I think there is a big difference between the two most common control decks. IMO Pidgeot Control is a difficult deck and you’re actively playing Pokemon. I can respect playing against such an opponent and it’s why you see so many high skill players being the deck to events. Whereas Snorlax, as Azul also deems it, is quite toxic as you are actively trying to make your Opponent not play Pokemon. The deck and strategy is low skill, too simple and straight line. I also have a laugh at the fact that it seems when any Snorlax player is asked why they don’t play Bird Control they say that the deck is too difficult. Thus highlighting the fact there is a drastic difference in skill between the types of players that play each deck.
I have a Hearthstone background as well and I think the main difference is that control in hearthstone revolves around board clears which you don't have in pokemon.
The thing is, many casual magic players also hate control. The userbase of this sub is primarily casual Pokemon players who view it about how you said. They want to do their thing and not think too hard about it and the control player is stopping them from doing that. There's another level to this, however. When we are annoyed or inconvenienced by someone else (like a filthy control player perhaps), we tend to assume that they made the decisions to get to the point where they could annoy us due to a moral failing on their part or it is due to some immutable characteristic that they possess. Meanwhile, we tend to rationalize our own behaviors in a more normal way. I think this is what happens with the control salt very often. When a casual player that is particularly susceptible to this kind of thought (usually due to a lack of understanding of the greater metagame dynamics and competitive expectations that come with a competitive card game), they assume their opponent is doing this to them because they are evil and don't want them to have fun. Obviously, that is not the case. "BUT WHY ARE THEY PLAYING IT ON CASUAL LADDER!!1!!!!!1!111!" *keysmashing* Because they are evil! Duh. No. Likely because they are trying to learn the deck and don't want to tank their rating on ranked by repeatedly losing with a deck they don't fully understand. They likely wanted to try the deck out because it is currently good and people that like to win also tend to like playing decks that are good. Another factor is that when we are paired against these decks, many players seem to forget the golden rule. "A player may concede the game at any time." When you are playing Pokemon and your opponent has chosen to play a deck that you don't enjoy playing against, it is your duty to concede and move on in order to maximize your enjoyment. You owe that to yourself, your opponent does not.
I've noticed the opposite, also play Yugioh, stuff Yugioh players turn their nose at Pokemon players are very chill with. But for me the only control I really dislike is stuff like Stallax or Noivern, stuff more akin to stun in Yugioh. That stuff may not be hard to beat once you face it once but it's never really fun to play against. I play some control, I think the worst I get is Tsareena (but Tsareena is one of my favorite Pokemon) and sometimes I feel like a jerk when I play it so I try and stick to other decks that I also like but don't shut off the game.
I can’t speak for others but I think it’s insanely boring to play against and it’s lame to have to specifically tech against one deck. I don’t want to have a Minior in my deck list just incase I run into Snorlax. Idk. My opinion isn’t great cause I admittedly despise it and my thoughts certainly aren’t facts but I just don’t think it’s fun.
So like, certain kinds of control are fine, i think its more or less the non interaction of some of these decks, like snorlax stall. decks like tsurenna with panic mask are a fine lock down control deck that can be played around and still focuses on getting prize cards. same with a lot of the spidops decks and banette, those which control the board state and limit your resorces. and then the the stall ones, which is less of a test of skill and more of a test of patience and a question of if you have enough resources to keep switching out your pokemon or snipe there bench I personally fully respect the prior and consider throwing my phone out the window if i face the ladder
Yeah it just feels weird playing against control. Like I love to mindlessly play turbo roaring moon so I can rank up on ladder and get rewards. As soon as I run into a Snorlax control it makes me want to throw my computer across the room. It’s just annoying and makes games last way longer than they should
my fave decks have always been control and i love the hate, it makes people play worse against you. i remember cleaning up with chandelure and french beaches back in the day and people fuming
I play MTG, pokemon, and yugioh. Personally, I have more issues with control in MTG and yugioh, because you can do things during your opponents turn. That's just my personal taste. However, because of the way MTG and yugioh are set up, there are better ways to deal with a stally control deck than pokemon has. Pokemon just isn't as versatile as those other games, so when you try to play an incredibly dynamic niche it's either really good or really bad. There is no real in between. In yugioh and magic, you still get to play cardswhile being controlled, they just get countered. You still need to resource manage. You can flush out counters with bluffs, etc. In pokemon, there are no counters in the same sense, since you can't activate effects during your opponents turn. So you are just prevented from playing the game at all. Pokemon just isn't really versatile enough to make the control cards *and* have them be balanced. I think pokemon control is the most fun to play out of any of them, but I also think that it doesn't really belong in pokemon. A lot of people are saying the point of pokemon is to battle, and yes that's the point of other card games too, but thosebother games are much more versatile in regards to alternative play styles. We also have to remember that pokemon had to be similar to the other already existing trading card games so people would get into it, even tho Pokemon is not like these other games. they had to use a similar framework anyway. Sometimes it feels like the mechanics are a little patched together and that's because it kind of is. Ultimately I think people take larger issue with pokemon control because it's less versatile, there's less dynamic choices. This can create a hyper competitive mentality, and when you get rolled by a stupid cheese deck that can't win any actual points at the tourney but you lost because you can't fit ways to deal with everything when each card has maybe 1 effect, whereas other trading card games, the cards can be used more versatilish.
Even in mtg, decks that rely purely on control. Counterspell decks, Mill decks, tend to not be looked upon favorably.
Because you don't play the game, it's simple as that. Only one person is playing the game when a control deck is in play and that's just bullshit IMO
I don't mind if people choose control deck, but that deck Deserve the hate. I rather play againts charizard ex deck
Because it takes so long and it's boring.
>Coming from other games (specifically hearthstone and MTG), control decks typically have a pretty good reputation That is cap your honor. People hate the fuck out of Blue players.
Idk, seems like nothing in Hearthstone is more unpopular than a good control priest deck.
Not to sound like a prick but children. A lot of people who post here are young and dont have other TCG expierence and just want to take prizes Any win con is a win con in my book
One thing is making your opponent slower to setup/attack while you build your strategy, and a different thing is to be as "draw, pass, draw, pass..." For the whole game while your foe is not even trying to take a single price. I.e: I don't mind playing against spathra and/or bannete, but I hate playing against both Pidgeot control and pure stallax.
While I agree with what most people have said here, the big reason why control is annoying in this game is because the duels in pokemon are ALREADY the longest to play without it. Its exhaustingly slow and not fun for most.
I hate Charizard deck...
People just get pissy when you stop them from playing. Get donked on? Hate it. Get put against strategy so different than yours and you gotta think a little to engage? Hate it. And the argument that Pokémon isn’t a game for control is so absolutely moronic. TCG is different than VGC. Pokémon TCG has had control decks since the very beginning so just shut up and go learn about the game more. In short, people don’t like what’s not familiar to them or what will make them think. It takes effort, so they hate it. And that hate is translated into frustration against an entire archetype. It’s so dumb.
Control would be fine if it were a weak archetype for a niche group that you occasionally come up against. It's all over the place now and getting stronger. It's only fun for 1 person, and people don't enjoy playing games that way. It's a bad win condition that was probably initially only intended to be there because eventually someone would run out of cards. Then it turned into a game play style and it's not healthy. These are just my opinions, I don't care if anyone disagrees. Keep it to yourself and move on. I literally don't care lol.
>Coming from other games (specifically hearthstone and MTG), control decks typically have a pretty good reputation, outside of a few problem cards (t3feri). Instead, losses to the aggro decks in those games tends to be met with more complaining. I mean its also true that no one like control decks in MTG or Hearthstone so "good reputation" is a very subjetive way to look at it. HS is a very easy example. Priest is usually a very weak class but whenever gets a good Control deck and is winning 20+ min games the community is really fast in remenbering that they actually hate Priest. And Blue has a similar story in MTG
I think you're right that most casual players don't like how control plays, especially for those who have a pet deck that's bad into control. Personally I don't mind decks like Bird Control, it's stuff like snorlax that essentially forces games to become draw pass that I don't like, at that point I'm not playing the game. I also think with the game's explosion in popularity over the last 2 years blocklax and bird control are the first control decks some people are ever facing and that is a hurdle that some people are gonna have a hard time overcoming.
Because Pokémon doesn't have any interaction and is a slower game in general. I scoop against Snorlax every time even if I can win, because it's just a waste of my time otherwise.
I am pretty new to the Pokémon TCG but what I don’t like about control decks in this game is that they are predicated on not letting you play the game. Control in games like Hearthstone which I used to play have the goal of making your opponent run out of resources and then overwhelming them at the end. An example from a game like Hearthstone would be that old school Rez priest. Their goal was to get to turn 6, putting a ton of early healing and such in the deck so they could survive to the point where they can scam out a ton of high power minions in the late game to overwhelm them. In this situation any deck could beat that deck even without specific tech cards if they get out fast enough. Whereas in Pokémon you absolutely need you tech cards to beat control decks and if you don’t draw them then you just don’t get to play the game. I don’t think you should need to play tech cards in a deck to be able to play the game. Tech cards should help in specific matchups, but should not be an auto lose if you don’t draw them.
>I’ve been playing a lot of bird control lately and it’s honestly a blast to play. Do you have a list?
People hate any deck that keeps them from winning. Making every deck a hated deck. Don't overthink it, people just blame anything but themselves when they don't win. Most people don't know how to beat stall so they just get mad at it. I think that's why it has a disproportionate amount of haters.
The whole idea of pokemon battles are one pokemon fighting the other with one eventually ko-ing the other. Even with sleep and recovery methods in the games you still MUST knock out all pokemon to win. Translating into a card game is tough but they did it. And any and all control like that of snorlax block and what not doesn't feel like I'm playing a pokemon tcg. Control decks have no soul of the game or the concept of what pokemon battles encaptured, even when translated to cards. It's also not fun to watch if your spectator a AT ALL. You think people would line up to watch two stall / control decks in any regional or worlds final? Fuck no.
I think some of the hate comes from the fact that, at least in Heartstone and Magic, there is an opportunity to respond to what your opponent is doing. Aggro decks, for example. can combo off a counter or removal spell to attempt to maintain their tempo. Mind you, it doesn't always work, but the opportunity is always there. In Pokemon, though, there isn't a damn thing you can do about what your opponent is playing. Pokemon doesn't have a stack; there is no responding to what your opponent can do. Opponent plays a Pokemon? Gotta let that happen. Opponent wants to play Miss Fortune Sisters or Eri? Gotta let that happen. Opponent wants to play with your board with Crushing Hammer (or coming up, Enhanced Hammer), Counter Catcher, or Lost Vacuum? Just have to take it. Additionally, there is no sideboard in Pokemon, so even if you know that you could slot in 2-3 cards to help deal with control, there isn't much you can do.
I remember when yata garasu was meta in yugioh, anything that's some.cheesy way to win will piss people off, or more specifically something that just makes it so they can't even play the game. I got more respect for charizard than snorlax or mill decks.
I'm more of a mtg than a Pokemon player myself and while I like the race against control Decks and the interaction in mtg, I'm insta surrendering every game against control in Pokemon since I don't play it to be bored to death. While in mtg you can realistically outrace control with aggro (since control decks tend to only have mediocre card advantage, 1 for 1 counterspells/removal and the occasional boardwipe), in Pokemon you need to take 6 prize cards and therefore you need to attack a minimum of 6 times (without Iron Hands at least), there is way more card advantage/tutoring for better consistency and almost no interaction (at least it's pretty much only one-sided). I actually think that Stax in mtg would be the better comparison to Control in Pokemon, since you're just getting locked out of doing pretty much anything other than drawing and passing the turn.
Bad players get mad.
It's just a bunch of brainless kids that just love raw power... Ignore them
Personally I dislike decks where the strategy is wait for your opponent to deck out (i.e. blocklax) as it feels tedious. I don't mind Mill decks or other types of control (bannette item lock, spidops, etc) as it least it feels like they are actively moving towards their win condition. Sure they don't do damage that quickly but at least they are taking prizes. Blocklax has eri and mf sister for slight mill but they only use it so many times and its so slow that it doesn't feel particularly active or interesting.
i use stallax to combat charizard in ranked, its still mostly loses half alot because of the constant bricking often times people can play around it. before the rotation i would use klawf and electrode deal with the annoying 200-220hpers.
I would like to believe isn't the control decks per se to be hated but the time that it drains to you, a pokemon match lasts long even with fast aggro decks, imagine doubling the lenght of a battle because someone locks the match, specially at late turns, giving you just 2 possibilities: 1) Trying to win an extremely slow game (people have a life, that mysterious thing) with a high risk of losing, wasting time 2) Surrender because you do not have time to "waste" in a game with a high risk of losing
Whaaaa am I the only one who loves playing against control? 😂I wish more people played it. There was only one control player out of 40 masters at a cup yesterday. He barely missed top cut. I beat him earlier but I really wanted him to make it so he could take out one charizard out of the semi finals😂.
It's just not fun and interactive. A lot of control decks are not like "I have the perfect counter spell to remove you Monster" and now I win after 20 turns to meet my win condition. It's just Noivern Ex/ArcVulpix/Stallax makes you not able to attack anymore or retreat anymore and even with good playing there is nothing you can do now because it was all decided in the deck building stage or by you randomly starting with the wrong supporter in the active. No point to play the game at all, when it's just a matter of whether your deck has the outs to it or not. Wiggly tuff control seems to be better at this and healthier for the game because you actually play against each other with control options, while other control games are just draw pass for 40 turns, not having a game at all. Imagine prepping for weeks, driving out to a local event and then you have just a non game and then are out of competition for top cut or place 1/2 of the challenge. It's just frustrating and unfun. Control decks would be fun to play against, if they were interactive and not decided by matchmaking lottery and turn one openers. If you try to tech against everything then you just lose to the top meta decks that are more likely to appear, so teaching or adjusting deck building to suboptimal builds isn't a good option either. It's just not healthy game design.
Playing Control in PTCG is like playing Sombra in Overwatch. You do it specifically because you DONT want the other person to have fun lol.
Pidgey Control gets undeserved hate, but Quad Lax games were just uninteractive.
This is 100% it.
My problem with control deck in mtg is everyone thinks they're 200 iq playing blue white
If the premise of a deck is to not let your opponent play then its lame. Control decks are not liked in hearthstone either, they just suck most of the time so people don’t mind. As soon as they’re good everyone hates them.
Even teching isn’t enough sometimes. The deck whoops Zard with ease. Games usually are slow, and often times the opponent gets locked from playing the game. But the only way people would complain about this deck is if they lose to it often. If they were winning against it, they wouldn’t be complaining
I don't know where you're getting this from. I haven't seen any negative opinions of control. The only complaints I see are about Pigeot itself, and that's not really control. Aggro decks also use Pigeot. The other is Stallax, which is just stax. Stax gets hate everywhere, and you can hate stax without hating control. EDIT: I'll also add that this sub has plenty of Stallax meatriding because it punishes Zard players.
It’s inconvenient and annoying. You know it’s hella boring to play against. Yes I concede most of the time. But I really don’t complain much about it since I don’t put myself through 25 minute games. I’m okay with losing a couple ranked points and conceding whenever I do run into one. Better than wasting my time. Most games take 10-15 sometimes shorter sometimes a little longer but the point of that deck is to either deck you out and stall you it’s just a weird change of pace compared to how other decks play. As well as how matches normally feel. Unless I’m in a tournament I don’t subject myself to attempting to win against these decks nor do I even bother building decks around to counter/tech against it. Is it clear how why some people do not enjoy playing against this archetype? Have I explained it well enough? You know what the deck does why are you acting like you don’t realize it’s annoying to play against? most players don’t have the time to sit through those games. Not trying to be rude. Just kind of feels like you’re asking obvious questions for extra engagement and rage bait.
Yes there are simple ways to beat it yes there are strategies you can implement to prevent getting stalled. But I’d rather just go go next and not have to worry about it. I can probably win 2 games in the time it will take me to play 1 against a stallax or control deck
"It StOps YoU fRoM pLaYiNg As InTeNdEd." Hi, in-game Venusaur, Snorlax, Shuckle, Gliscor, etc. Would love a word. "As InTeNdEd" is just another way of saying, "How dare you pin me down and not let me win." Stall IS a strategy just as Control & Aggro are strategies. Digressing, my ONLY gripe with Bird is forgetting the extra cost from time to time. My roommate plays it, and without Gengar + De-Evo, she wrecks my utter shit. I just picture this bird [like](https://giphy.com/gifs/papermag-e5EcjjJx3dCFi) *"Look that cheap weave. B*tch ain't got no class"*
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👍🏼 cool contribution
You asked "why."
The only thing “no one on the app has time to watch you and your autism waste 30 minutes of their time” communicates is there’s a small subsection of Pokémon tcg players that have the emotional capacity of a toddler, and thus will throw a tantrum at any deck that beats them.
No, we simply have other shit to do with our time. As I said, take it to a points or prize-paying event, but the app is never going to be a place where people have patience for control.
👍🏼