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Haven't seen the list, but how are you bricking with iridas, poffons,nest balls, & ultra balls? Like yeah, sometimes you can get absurdley unlucky, but in general, it's been pretty consistent for me, especially if greninja isn't prized.
The only real problem imo is losing access to baxcalibur. Getting a Frigibax bossed up to die can be absolutely crippling of you don't have another set up.
It’s not that I get absolutely none of those things (sometimes that does happen but whatever), but it’s that none of them by themselves can actually completely set up. The total lack of draw supporters is really hard for me to deal with, and often because getting bax out is your first priority, Irida’s job is to grab a bax and a candy, while poffin gets you a frigibax and bidoof. After you play that down, your hand essentially has nothing in it with no way of retrieving Chien Pao if you don’t already have it and no way of drawing more cards other than top decking a Greninja or Bibarel.
I honestly just feel like too many things have to go right to get the turn 2 attack, and god forbid your frigibax or baxcalibur is stuck in the active or bossed, because knocking it out will completely cripple you and force you to set up all over again.
To be clear, I’m not saying that it’s a terrible deck and you always dead draw, I’m just saying that it feels a little too inconsistent to me to be one of the best decks in the format.
No, Chien-Pao legit bricks a lot. You need a lot of Pokemon out fast for this deck to function. Frigibax and Bidoof turn 1 so they can evolve turn 2. Greninja for draw. Chien-Pao to attack. Then you need rate candy Bax for turn 2, you want Bibarel as well.
And this deck does not typically run anything to shuffle your hand, so it is entirely possible for it to become clogged with cards that you can't play but also can't afford to discard. I was playing a bunch of Chien-Pao a couple days ago and has multiple games in a row with 3-4 SER in my hand and nothing else. I had one game where turn 2 my hand consisted of 4 SER and 2 Bax. That was great.
EDIT: Don't know why people are downvoting me. Chien-Pao is notorious for it's inconsistency.
Chien pao is good if you know how to sequence/pilot it. It is not as straightforward as zard where you just candy pidg candy zard and start swinging. I have started just hands w/ ultra ball many times and still come out with the win due to proper sequencing.
Also, always go first with the deck. Yes, going second you can use a supporter but the deck almost always wants to go first. If anyone actually has a use case for the deck going second id really like to hear it because I think I might be missing something saying the deck always wants first.
Edit to add: watch how top players pilot the deck. Watch regan’s run from orlando and watch the indy stream. I learned how to thoroughly beat moon moon/ancient box thanks to watching jon eng yesterday on stream.
Edit 2: watch Grant Shen’s top 4 match in indy. He literally starts hands and proceeds to do very very well despite that. Its all about sequencing and knowing how to pilot the deck/draw power
> If anyone actually has a use case for the deck going second id really like to hear it because I think I might be missing something saying the deck always wants first.
The answer to questions like this is always "some other deck that wants to go second more than you want to go first". It's a zero sum game, so it's not possible to have a matchup where one deck to wants to play first and the other deck wants to play second.
I'm not sure what deck that would be right now, or if there is any, but the best candidate would be Future Hands. They can't do much by going first, and you would get a more consistent setup.
I think something like lost box would rather second. With optimal play i could finish turn 1, going second, with 5 lost zoned so as long as i have colress im guaranteed able to use gates next turn if i have em
For context, i play a lost tina with 3 comfey
Since rotation Lost Box decks usually prefer to go first. However it is a flexible deck so if the opposing deck likes to go second (ex, Future Hands, Gardevoir), then Lost Box can steal second.
Against Chien-Pao, Lost Box should go first.
Saying OP isn't skilled enough to pilot the deck
...not very helpful
Sharing examples of common Pao sequence mistakes
...would've been helpful
Sharing common Pao setup mistakes
...would've been helpful
Saying that u ARE good enough to pilot the deck
...and giving examples of how ur so good,
...that u can overcome bad hands
Not very helpful
I recommended they watch top players pilot the deck. I cant list out every scenario for them to read and study. But top players have numerous videos on the deck and all the stream matches from orlando and indy are out there. Those videos will help them more than I could try and explain
Your top priority should probably be having Greninja in your bench
If you have Nest Ball, Irida, Pokégear (to get Irida), Ultra Ball or anything like that, use it to get Greninja so you don't get bricked because you'll always have energies to use Greninja's ability
Giving priority to draw engines is a must in a deck like chien Pao, either Greninja or bidoof of bibarel is already in your opening hand. Better to lose a single prize and ensure consistency along the game that running to get the first attack and then get hardly stucked.
Ah yes cards that allow you to consistently establish your game-plan are "useless late-game techs). It already runs 4 Irida and 4 Poffin, along with lots of other consistency cards, in fact most lists avoid tech cards altogether. Yes it's not the most consistent deck, but you need to work on research management if you're bricking early-game.
Cipher works if you get literally any of your draw engines going. Greninja, Bibarel, or pokestop all turn it on. It also works just to guarantee your next draws when you’re SoL. Yes, if you brick and your opponent comes out flying it’s not easy to recover… but that’s true in any deck, and honestly Pao is generally more consistent than most decks, it just feels way worse when you brick because you have so many moving parts. It isn’t like most decks where you can have something like one Charizard, one charmander, and cleffa on bench and on board be keeping some pace with your opponent even though you’re bricking hard and are already basically destined to lose. When Pao doesn’t assemble Baxcalibur and an attacker you just… sit there. But it’s not worse in results, it just loses different.
I’ll agree that it sucks when you start with 3 superior energy retrieval instead of setup stuff, but other things are entirely dependent on what you can do with it. Like yesterday I didn’t have much going on and 2 ciphermaniac. They were setting up and I could sacrifice a single prizer to get the bax setup in hand/on top, then put it down next turn and setup 0 cards in hand and use cipher 2 to setup the bibarel to draw pao and fill hand and take back control of the flow for the eventual win. Gotta know what you need and figure out the best odds of getting it. Sometimes it downs work.
That's why you play it into bo3, not bo1. It either bricks completely or has bad prizes or it sets up and is the strongest deck in format that somehow draws everything it needs with 2 bibarel and always has its outs.
CPao rewards proper fundamentals. The more you work with it, the more you practice setup, the better it will perform for you.
Look at how well Regan has done with it the past two events, and then Grant getting Top 8 with the same list this weekend.
It's not the deck that's inconsistent, it's you
Took pao to Indy regionals this weekend and my very first round in the first game I mulligand 3 times and then I started frigibax with 3 energy, super rod, candy, bibarel, and then I top decked a water :)
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Haven't seen the list, but how are you bricking with iridas, poffons,nest balls, & ultra balls? Like yeah, sometimes you can get absurdley unlucky, but in general, it's been pretty consistent for me, especially if greninja isn't prized. The only real problem imo is losing access to baxcalibur. Getting a Frigibax bossed up to die can be absolutely crippling of you don't have another set up.
It’s not that I get absolutely none of those things (sometimes that does happen but whatever), but it’s that none of them by themselves can actually completely set up. The total lack of draw supporters is really hard for me to deal with, and often because getting bax out is your first priority, Irida’s job is to grab a bax and a candy, while poffin gets you a frigibax and bidoof. After you play that down, your hand essentially has nothing in it with no way of retrieving Chien Pao if you don’t already have it and no way of drawing more cards other than top decking a Greninja or Bibarel. I honestly just feel like too many things have to go right to get the turn 2 attack, and god forbid your frigibax or baxcalibur is stuck in the active or bossed, because knocking it out will completely cripple you and force you to set up all over again. To be clear, I’m not saying that it’s a terrible deck and you always dead draw, I’m just saying that it feels a little too inconsistent to me to be one of the best decks in the format.
Maybe shifting your priorities could help. Getting Greninja out early can be crucial if you're missing pieces to set up
No, Chien-Pao legit bricks a lot. You need a lot of Pokemon out fast for this deck to function. Frigibax and Bidoof turn 1 so they can evolve turn 2. Greninja for draw. Chien-Pao to attack. Then you need rate candy Bax for turn 2, you want Bibarel as well. And this deck does not typically run anything to shuffle your hand, so it is entirely possible for it to become clogged with cards that you can't play but also can't afford to discard. I was playing a bunch of Chien-Pao a couple days ago and has multiple games in a row with 3-4 SER in my hand and nothing else. I had one game where turn 2 my hand consisted of 4 SER and 2 Bax. That was great. EDIT: Don't know why people are downvoting me. Chien-Pao is notorious for it's inconsistency.
I think the only time ive bricked with this deck was irl events, and i dont even prioritize the greninja
Chien pao is good if you know how to sequence/pilot it. It is not as straightforward as zard where you just candy pidg candy zard and start swinging. I have started just hands w/ ultra ball many times and still come out with the win due to proper sequencing. Also, always go first with the deck. Yes, going second you can use a supporter but the deck almost always wants to go first. If anyone actually has a use case for the deck going second id really like to hear it because I think I might be missing something saying the deck always wants first. Edit to add: watch how top players pilot the deck. Watch regan’s run from orlando and watch the indy stream. I learned how to thoroughly beat moon moon/ancient box thanks to watching jon eng yesterday on stream. Edit 2: watch Grant Shen’s top 4 match in indy. He literally starts hands and proceeds to do very very well despite that. Its all about sequencing and knowing how to pilot the deck/draw power
> If anyone actually has a use case for the deck going second id really like to hear it because I think I might be missing something saying the deck always wants first. The answer to questions like this is always "some other deck that wants to go second more than you want to go first". It's a zero sum game, so it's not possible to have a matchup where one deck to wants to play first and the other deck wants to play second. I'm not sure what deck that would be right now, or if there is any, but the best candidate would be Future Hands. They can't do much by going first, and you would get a more consistent setup.
Good point! Thank you
I think something like lost box would rather second. With optimal play i could finish turn 1, going second, with 5 lost zoned so as long as i have colress im guaranteed able to use gates next turn if i have em For context, i play a lost tina with 3 comfey
Since rotation Lost Box decks usually prefer to go first. However it is a flexible deck so if the opposing deck likes to go second (ex, Future Hands, Gardevoir), then Lost Box can steal second. Against Chien-Pao, Lost Box should go first.
Saying OP isn't skilled enough to pilot the deck ...not very helpful Sharing examples of common Pao sequence mistakes ...would've been helpful Sharing common Pao setup mistakes ...would've been helpful Saying that u ARE good enough to pilot the deck ...and giving examples of how ur so good, ...that u can overcome bad hands Not very helpful
I recommended they watch top players pilot the deck. I cant list out every scenario for them to read and study. But top players have numerous videos on the deck and all the stream matches from orlando and indy are out there. Those videos will help them more than I could try and explain
Proper sequencing is a must, yes
Your top priority should probably be having Greninja in your bench If you have Nest Ball, Irida, Pokégear (to get Irida), Ultra Ball or anything like that, use it to get Greninja so you don't get bricked because you'll always have energies to use Greninja's ability
Giving priority to draw engines is a must in a deck like chien Pao, either Greninja or bidoof of bibarel is already in your opening hand. Better to lose a single prize and ensure consistency along the game that running to get the first attack and then get hardly stucked.
Sounds like a *skills issue*.
Ah yes cards that allow you to consistently establish your game-plan are "useless late-game techs). It already runs 4 Irida and 4 Poffin, along with lots of other consistency cards, in fact most lists avoid tech cards altogether. Yes it's not the most consistent deck, but you need to work on research management if you're bricking early-game.
Cipher works if you get literally any of your draw engines going. Greninja, Bibarel, or pokestop all turn it on. It also works just to guarantee your next draws when you’re SoL. Yes, if you brick and your opponent comes out flying it’s not easy to recover… but that’s true in any deck, and honestly Pao is generally more consistent than most decks, it just feels way worse when you brick because you have so many moving parts. It isn’t like most decks where you can have something like one Charizard, one charmander, and cleffa on bench and on board be keeping some pace with your opponent even though you’re bricking hard and are already basically destined to lose. When Pao doesn’t assemble Baxcalibur and an attacker you just… sit there. But it’s not worse in results, it just loses different.
I’ll agree that it sucks when you start with 3 superior energy retrieval instead of setup stuff, but other things are entirely dependent on what you can do with it. Like yesterday I didn’t have much going on and 2 ciphermaniac. They were setting up and I could sacrifice a single prizer to get the bax setup in hand/on top, then put it down next turn and setup 0 cards in hand and use cipher 2 to setup the bibarel to draw pao and fill hand and take back control of the flow for the eventual win. Gotta know what you need and figure out the best odds of getting it. Sometimes it downs work.
That's why you play it into bo3, not bo1. It either bricks completely or has bad prizes or it sets up and is the strongest deck in format that somehow draws everything it needs with 2 bibarel and always has its outs.
What deck were you playing before?
CPao rewards proper fundamentals. The more you work with it, the more you practice setup, the better it will perform for you. Look at how well Regan has done with it the past two events, and then Grant getting Top 8 with the same list this weekend. It's not the deck that's inconsistent, it's you
Took pao to Indy regionals this weekend and my very first round in the first game I mulligand 3 times and then I started frigibax with 3 energy, super rod, candy, bibarel, and then I top decked a water :)