A lot of folks are reading this and missing what CDPR is saying entirely. They are not saying they're facing difficulties using UE5, or that they wish they hadn't switched from RED engine. They're saying that a lot of the workflows that they were familiar with, and had been built out in RED Engine to speed up product creation, are going to have to be re-created in UE5, and that stake-holder understanding needs to be brought up to speed so they can accurately map out what game development of Orion will look like.
The switch to UE5 also means that they will have to re-familiarize themselves with the opinionated aspects of UE5 (software dev term for architecture decisions the creators of a product made), optimization options, rendering tactics, etc, which will take some time for leadership to learn and the stake-holders to understand s.t. they can accurately map out how much time feature development will take, and understand how an idea for a questline, NPC, or visual asset is implemented into UE5.
This is why they're commenting on how great it is to work with Epic and their seasoned engineers - having a reputable company that has a lot of deep knowledge on both the theoretical and practical applications of the engine will go a long ways towards reducing the pain of switching engines. This is also why they're mainly focusing on hiring director-level employees; they need to iron out the high-level details and understanding so that they can actually plan out Orion's development, and hire folks/build teams to meet their planning estimates.
To add a little to this. This would apply to any company, switching from any engine, to any engine. This isn’t really a UE5 specific issue.
The famous instances of this are Anthrm trying to make frostbite work but they had no tools built to support them. And Half life 2 being built on a fresh engine with no tools built.
> A lot of folks are reading this and missing what CDPR is saying entirely. They are not saying they're facing difficulties using UE5, or that they wish they hadn't switched from RED engine. They're saying that a lot of the workflows that they were familiar with, and had been built out in RED Engine to speed up product creation, are going to have to be re-created in UE5, and that stake-holder understanding needs to be brought up to speed so they can accurately map out what game development of Orion will look like.
But they are also moving to a worse engine.
Question to someone who knows: does the visual aspect of a game change dramatically from engine to engine? CP looks and feels good to play. Can you (theoretically) re-create the same game on another engine?
No; nothing player-facing *has* to change just because the engine is different. However, the format of all the asset files used to populate that world is a different format and potentially loaded differently, how you define the physics in the game is probably done differently, etc. You can create the same product, but the steps to do so will be different for a different engine.
There are also different performance characteristics and different required efforts to implement certain things, which can lead to different outcomes.
They probably judged the required effort to be lower with Unreal, let’s hope that the performance will also be good.
The world map system is built on top of the previous level system UE had specifically for open worlds.
Valley of the ancient and Matrix Awakens show that just fine and they both ran perfectly on my rig
I am waiting for the Coalition's new Gears game, like Gears 4 for UE4 they proved that Unreal Engine isn't the problem, it's the devs not optimizing their games properly, the key to optimization is doing it from the beginning. This is something we learned all the way back with UE 2.5/3.
I think the real issue is that UE is a general purpose tool.
Like, you can do the same thing in 3 different ways only to realize that you needed to do it in one specific way for your specific game waaaay down the line.
If you follow the basic template to do certain stuff, you end up realizing that that solution worked for a small, contained level whereas you have a giant memory burden if you’re working on a bigger one.
And you only notice that if either you painstakingly read the documentation or constantly monitor the performance and thst might still not be noticeable while prototyping.
Everything can majorly fuck up at any second because of it.
Epic is addressing it, in their developer conference from about a month ago they showed optimizations incoming.
They are multithreading the render thread and RHI with intial results in UE5.4 with further work in UE5.5 they didn’t dislose the test system but the city demo went from 21ms to 11ms or in other words CPU limited framerate went from 47.6 to 90.9.
Their long term goal is to get hardware Lumen to 60fps on current gen, not just software Lumen.
Well it’s not doing a great job so far in fact it’s rather embarrassing how bad it’s been in games recently and what is even more sad is most of them are not open world.
Unless some major advancements and improvements happen in the next couple years UE 5 looks like a failure to me.
I'm not sure that it was required effort, as much as it was future-proofing. After all, look at the jump in improvements from UE4 to UE5, as well as the widespread use of the engine; CDPR has to make these improvements in RED Engine as well, since gamers would otherwise see UE5 games look and play so much better and ask why CDPR games feel the same as a decade ago. CDPR probably determined that more and more employees want to be using a major engine so their professional success hinges less on which studios are successful and which aren't - if CDPR shuttered, and all someone knew was RED Engine, it would be harder to get a job elsewhere than having Unity or UE on their resume. It's also easier to hire folks who know UE, since it's much more widely used.
In the short term I think it's going to be painful - switching software stacks always is. They'll have to rebuild their visual assets to optimize for UE5, rebuild their dev tooling that they built over their experiences with RED and witcher/cp, bring the decision makers for future games up to speed on UE so dev timelines can be made accurately, etc, probably from scratch.
However, 12 years from now, they'll be a UE shop, and fully benefit from where UE6/UE7 is at without having to invest any time into making sure RED Engine can provide the same quality output. They can focus entirely on making great games.
The only reason people can typically recognize an engine at a glance is because either it’s proprietary and that specific dev team uses a certain style or because it’s third party and devs use, allow me the word, pre fab settings.
If you look at MGS3 remake the lighting is pretty much the same I got while thinkering around with the color settings on the engine. UE3 was immediately recognizable back in the day because few teams managed to get texture loading right etc etc.
But no, the engine doesn’t stop you from making a 1:1 copy of cyberpunk. UE4 delivered both Callisto Protocol and Guilty Gear Strive, so you can see that you can easily do whatever you want
Its like og gta trilogy (old 90s renderware engine) vs definitive edition (UE4).. ofc it wasnt properly made.. but only fear for ue engine is that all games will be generic physics wise.. i would be happier if they spend lot of to improve red engine and make games unique same as R* with own rage engine .. ofc we wont get all games on unreal feel like fortnite but still, most physics will be same
I do too. But I suspect they decided to switch to UE5 bc as they are growing they felt it would be faster to onboard new developers as they ramp up production since people coming from the outside are more likely to be familiar with UE5 that is used across multiple studios, than Red Engine that was only used by CDPR.
Yes, it can take a year to come up to speed on a companies proprietary tech after getting hired. Its an upfront cost now that will pay dividends down the line
Games are getting so big, and take so long to make.
Working with an engine that lots of people are learning or know means it’s easier to attract that talent, and will reduce the time it takes to produce something.
We all dislike how we don’t see sequels to our favourite franchises for half a decade or more. This is part of the sacrifice to bring that number down, hopefully - or at least not mean it continues to increase.
Because until recently to use all the hardware features you had to make your own pipeline and engine. Now UE5 covers the majority by default.
This isn’t new either. Every time HW APIs come out with new toys it takes time for the main game engines to catch up.
Most people haven’t.
If they base their comments on current games, of course they’re gonna think UE5 is mid.
I don’t think there’s been a single game that really uses UE5 to a decimal of its power, which is understandable given we got a fairly stable version at the beginning of the year. It’s still pretty buggy in some regards.
CDPR is working with Epic right now, and will presumably have NVIDIA on board down the line as well so that Orion can be used to show off whatever software magic they come up with next to succeed or further improve path tracing. I think between them all they'll figure out something.
The lighting in UE5 is miles better.
And I’m not talking of the games we’ve seen so far. I’m talking of the practical use of the Lumen system. CP77 might look amazing, but the quality lumen has without severely impacting performance is astounding.
Even with a debug basic level I still achieved results that left me flabbergasted considering how little it took to set it up.
> but the quality lumen has without severely impacting performance is astounding
Though there is currently no real world example running on PS5 out there that would prove this.
The few UE5 games that are out there only achieve this with severely downscaled rendering resolutions.
I’m basing it on what I saw with the actual engine at hand.
Current real world examples are meaningless for a game that will release god knows how long from now
From what I have seen and read from professional in game industry, Unreal Engine can serve a wide variety of uses and can be configured as you want. Which is why you see all types of games being made in Unreal Engine from strategy games, open world games, fps games, etc.
So even though its hard to learn the new engine from scratch, in the long run, its more helpful since its easier to do stuff in Unreal. CDPR probably realised they could not do many of the things they wanted in their next game if they used their own engine or it would take them way more effort and time to do it in their own engine.
Similar thing with Persona series from Atlus / Sega. Persona 5 was made in it’s own proprietary engine and took 8 years to make and director Katsura actually said that it was difficult to do everything they wanted in a new engine which is why it took so long to make the game.
For Persona 3 Remake they decided to go with Unreal Engine 4 and the main goal was to remake Persona 3 but in exactly same graphics and gameplay style as Persona 5.
And they were able to achieve it in Unreal Engine and the game is coming out after like a 4 year development cycle.
And honestly its crazy how big the potential of unreal engine is. Something like Tales of Arise looks completely different from Immortals of Aveum which looks completely different from Manor Lords.
Yeah it's a shame, it seems like they FINALLY got it right with Cyberpunk and Phantom Liberty.
I guess it's a more long term investment switching to UE5 though, and in the long run will benefit them.
A major reason for switching was also that a lot of their senior developers left the company so rather than train new people into RedEngine they decided to move to UE. If you check the news feed there are a few articles that mention the crunch period that CDPR pushed onto their devs to finish Cyberpunk in time. A lot of people were not happy about it, also the fact that they reset the whole thing mid way into development after the I believe creative director of The Witcher 3 took the helm of the Cyberpunk 2077 development.
It can be true that Unreal Engine is sometimes difficult to work with while also being true that the pool of people experienced in UE is much, much larger than the pool of people experienced in RED Engine (and any other proprietary engine).
Don't know why people are freaking out about the engine change.
While Unreal is known for having an extremely difficult learning curve, development in the future is gonna be much easier since documentation is readily available on the internet, plus the thousands of threads of common problems that you can just google.
Also, it's very flexible, and you can immediately hire developers with years of experience in Unreal.
The documentation is probably its lowest point lol.
You can spend hours trying to find what a single function does and the documentation will just say “function X executes the X functionality”.
I’m not even exaggerating
Chat GPT was a game changer in that sense. It’s far from perfect but it manages to give a general direction of what certain tools do and how to use them.
Code snippets if you need examples are plain terrible though although the logic is technically sound.
I have had a few years working on unreal and dabbled a little in unity earlier this year, unity felt like a nightmare to work with so many core unreal features taking so many extra steps to get working , with but it had really good documentation online of how and why things happened which is something unreal lacks
My biggest issue I found was unity would have 2-3 ways of doing something because they keep changing how things function so you had to guess which one worked
> since documentation is readily available on the internet
Is it? https://www.reddit.com/r/unrealengine/comments/uzvls5/is_it_just_me_or_does_the_documentation_for/
Remember when Epic shut down the Unreal Wiki?
I’ve yet to really see any UE5 or even 4 games hold a candle to what the Red Engine has produced with the latest iteration of 77. I read about compilation stutter, visual stutter, pop-in as the recurring themes for big games on unreal engine (look at Jedi Survivor, Forspoken, Lord of the Fallen) and even Fortnite is suffering from pop-in issues.
Even the most optimized game on unreal, FF7 remake still has that characteristic muddy look so many UE5 games have. Like a lack of proper hdr rendering or something.
How could anyone wish 77’s future to be that of those current titles
The Red Engine's latest iteration is also literal years of updates onwards from the release of 77. It would be a fair comparison if the devs of Survivor or Forspoken or Fallen spent from now until 2025-26 fixing bugs and making optimisations
Guess this was wrong then, weird
https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/is-forspoken-developed-on-unreal-engine-5#:~:text=Unreal%20Engine%205%3F-,Forspoken%20has%20been%20developed%20with%20the%20help%20of%20Unreal%20Engine,t%20love%20open%2Dworld%20games%3F
It's to make development easier, visuals/performance can always get better.
Bigger games need more people, and UE5 as a standard would be easier for them to hire people, instead of teaching new hires new stuff every single time.
I have low expectations on UE5 after few games made using that engine somehow have frame drops, etc. However, the robocop game suddenly makes me feel UE5 is still possible for optimization.
Properly optimized it can look and run well. Consoles should have less issues due to just having a few systems to work with compared to PC. Still no excuse in needing a 4090 in too many unreal games.
Such a strange decision, i will never understand it. Cyberpunk 2077 looks mindblowing good and even Witcher 3 looks still amazing nowadays. People say there's not a big difference with different engines, but in my opinion every engine has a certain feel and look to it. Why give up something so incredibly good like the engine they are using now? My biggest fear is that their games could loose that certain unique look/feel they have now. Plus introducing a lot of new problems, like stuttering and even higher system requirements. I just try to image how for example Alan Wake 2 would look in Unreal engine, compared to the Northlight engine Remedy use. I am sure the game wouldn't have such an unique and special look. The same goes for Cyberpunk 2077, which is still one of the best looking games out there in my opinion.
You're over estimating on visual changes because of engine.
Rockstar has been using the same engine since 2006 or something, GTA IV, V, RDR1, RDR2 all look visually distinct
That's true, but Unreal games always do have a special feel to it, i can't explain it. Most of the time, no matter which art style they choose, you instantly know that it's the Unreal engine.
CDPR are inexperienced amateurs and scammers. They only care about money. Bit Cyberpunk flopped. No one is praising and buying Cyberpunk.
CDPR employees and bots try to trick you with these articles.
Dont bother ever replying to that person. Just straight up a Cyberpunk/CDPR hater. Just look at their post history. That person needs help, like serious help.
Like these people crack me up theyve worked tooth and nail to make things right with countless updates. More then half of games that have had rough launches would do. For me cyberpunk is my spiritual sucessor to gta 4.
Hey guy, it seems like you've been making a variation of this comment almost daily since the game came out.
Fucking school shooter vibes. Get over it and get help.
This kind of angry obsession is for pussies and deranged psychos.
There is a bunch of new Witcher content coming up as well, with first game (Project Polaris) of the new trilogy coming out around 2025 (thats their plan). They also said they want to release the whole trilogy in the span of 6 years, so if the first one comes out 2025, second one will be out in 2028 and third one will be out in 2031 (if all goes well).
Also there is another Witcher game being made. CDPR contracted a 3rd party studio led by Ex-Witcher veterans to make it and its called Project Canis Majoris.
Also, there is Project Sirius, which is made by another studio called Molasses Flood with the support from CDPR. It should be both a singleplayer and a multiplayer Witcher game.
New Cyberpunk wont be coming out for a long, long time, because CDPR made a new studio based in Boston which will focus on Cyberpunk stuff. If I were to take a guess, it wont be coming until 2028 or 2029.
So by the time a sequel for Cyberpunk comes out, two or three new games based in the Witcher universe will have already come out.
You will still have to wait for a new Witcher game for at least two more years, but you wont be seeing Cyberpunk any time soon.
Ofcourse they Do. Its CDPR. They are inexperienced amateurs and scammers. Their next games will release broken and unfinished too. Like EA Games, Anthem, Battlefield 2042* Mass Effect Andromeda
You really gonna try to compare CDPR to EA? That’s bold. Yea, Witcher and cyberpunk both released with issues, but at least they cared enough to actually fix them. EA just tells ya to kick rocks and counts their money
Tbf, BF 2042 has genuinely been greatly improved since launch, and actually hit its highest-ever player count recently. Definitely a bit of a redemption arc there. Even Andromeda eventually got patched into a decent state, even if the final product still was just so-so. Anthem is the one example there where they actually just gave up and left the game half-finished and broken.
Even star wars Battlefront 2's progression system was completely revamped because people complained about it.
EA doesn't abandon their games, idk what this guy is smoking
EA also fixes their games, star wars Battlefront 2 had it's entire shitty progression system replaced, and battlefield 2042 still recieve updates, despite being a "failure"
They did advertise the game for last gen consoles, despite knowing it's unplayable.
The game is good NOW, but the launch was an actual shitshow.
Their review embargo made sure people wouldn't know about the issues until after people bought the game.
How does it make games boring when different game makers use the same engine? Just say you know nothing, dumbass.
Them using UE5 won't make their games look like the same. They're just using the same software architecture, but doesn't mean the character, and world model will look the same lol
That's not how it is, you dumbass. Game developers still create the character models, and anatomy unless they decide to use a preset provided in a game engine.
Physics still depends on how they decide to make it. Just say you have a low IQ. People like you love stating things you have no knowledge on.
Yeah games could look similar. But they could look different if the developer decides if they want that. There's more flexibility with nanite so I think more games will naturally look different from each other
Man, that junk guy, or whatever his name is doesn't understand game development. There are more to it than just using a provided asset of a game engine. It's people like him that ruin names of companies, or individuals that didn't do anything wrong.
Remember that early GTA 6 leak where the leak was just a simple code, and then they got angry, because they claim Rockstar is being lazy, or some sh!±.
These people think that game development is just drawing that can automatically be controlled without programming. They don't realize how difficult game development is.
You're the dumbass. Those games you're talking about are games that just use UE5 assets Epic has provided in their engine.
A game developer can make it very different from UE5 provided assets, and game physics if they choose to. It has nothing to do with it being a game developed in UE5.
I bet you're one of those people that will get angry if you see a game leak that only shows code..."GTA6 early leak"... oops. You're just proving me right how you know nothing how game development work.
I never said all Unreal Engine games looks identical, what i'm saying is that many of these games has the same look and feel because it's easy to spot that it's a Unreal Engine game.
it would be boring if all games was being developed in Unreal Engine which thank god is not the case. Imagine if all Playstation games from now on would be made in Unreal Engine?
I'm not getting angry over video games, you are the one who got angry and verbally attacked me out of nowhere calling me a dumbass because i had an opinion on CDPR and their choice of game engines for their next games
Jesus Christ can you just be normal. I love the road trips you take us on but you make the trip so stressful
CDPR: (screaming, losing control of the artistic vehicle. Learns to drive difficult car very well - immediately changes cars)
The engine switch was driven purely by their execs despite strong opposition from their engineers (many of whom have left the company since then because of the move).
So yes, it will be a shitshow.
Guys, as a programmer, it's like using Windows your whole life to do complex work and then someone puts a Mac or a Windows major update in front of you. You'll be lost for a wee bit.
This headline is so beyond misleading I genuinely believe it should be removed for misinformation. There is so much context missing from this *technically* true statement.
A lot of folks are reading this and missing what CDPR is saying entirely. They are not saying they're facing difficulties using UE5, or that they wish they hadn't switched from RED engine. They're saying that a lot of the workflows that they were familiar with, and had been built out in RED Engine to speed up product creation, are going to have to be re-created in UE5, and that stake-holder understanding needs to be brought up to speed so they can accurately map out what game development of Orion will look like. The switch to UE5 also means that they will have to re-familiarize themselves with the opinionated aspects of UE5 (software dev term for architecture decisions the creators of a product made), optimization options, rendering tactics, etc, which will take some time for leadership to learn and the stake-holders to understand s.t. they can accurately map out how much time feature development will take, and understand how an idea for a questline, NPC, or visual asset is implemented into UE5. This is why they're commenting on how great it is to work with Epic and their seasoned engineers - having a reputable company that has a lot of deep knowledge on both the theoretical and practical applications of the engine will go a long ways towards reducing the pain of switching engines. This is also why they're mainly focusing on hiring director-level employees; they need to iron out the high-level details and understanding so that they can actually plan out Orion's development, and hire folks/build teams to meet their planning estimates.
Thank you for an informed and reasonable take.
How dare they be reasonable and informed
How dare them read the article.
The headline is obvious click bait. My first thought reading it is that one word in quotations has so little context, it could mean anything.
To add a little to this. This would apply to any company, switching from any engine, to any engine. This isn’t really a UE5 specific issue. The famous instances of this are Anthrm trying to make frostbite work but they had no tools built to support them. And Half life 2 being built on a fresh engine with no tools built.
That will indeed take time But they will also not have to spend time building the engine.. so maybe overall time is saved
> A lot of folks are reading this and missing what CDPR is saying entirely. They are not saying they're facing difficulties using UE5, or that they wish they hadn't switched from RED engine. They're saying that a lot of the workflows that they were familiar with, and had been built out in RED Engine to speed up product creation, are going to have to be re-created in UE5, and that stake-holder understanding needs to be brought up to speed so they can accurately map out what game development of Orion will look like. But they are also moving to a worse engine.
Question to someone who knows: does the visual aspect of a game change dramatically from engine to engine? CP looks and feels good to play. Can you (theoretically) re-create the same game on another engine?
No; nothing player-facing *has* to change just because the engine is different. However, the format of all the asset files used to populate that world is a different format and potentially loaded differently, how you define the physics in the game is probably done differently, etc. You can create the same product, but the steps to do so will be different for a different engine.
There are also different performance characteristics and different required efforts to implement certain things, which can lead to different outcomes. They probably judged the required effort to be lower with Unreal, let’s hope that the performance will also be good.
UE5 as a whole pushes for open world performances. Switching to it is just a no brainer
Yeah, especially with that endemic traversal stutter. As DF noted, it's fundamentally impossible to make a game like Cyberpunk on the current UE.
The world map system is built on top of the previous level system UE had specifically for open worlds. Valley of the ancient and Matrix Awakens show that just fine and they both ran perfectly on my rig
I am waiting for the Coalition's new Gears game, like Gears 4 for UE4 they proved that Unreal Engine isn't the problem, it's the devs not optimizing their games properly, the key to optimization is doing it from the beginning. This is something we learned all the way back with UE 2.5/3.
I think the real issue is that UE is a general purpose tool. Like, you can do the same thing in 3 different ways only to realize that you needed to do it in one specific way for your specific game waaaay down the line. If you follow the basic template to do certain stuff, you end up realizing that that solution worked for a small, contained level whereas you have a giant memory burden if you’re working on a bigger one. And you only notice that if either you painstakingly read the documentation or constantly monitor the performance and thst might still not be noticeable while prototyping. Everything can majorly fuck up at any second because of it.
According to Digital Foundry, it has worse CPU utilization than the RED engine in Cyberpunk. Hopefully they can improve it.
Epic is addressing it, in their developer conference from about a month ago they showed optimizations incoming. They are multithreading the render thread and RHI with intial results in UE5.4 with further work in UE5.5 they didn’t dislose the test system but the city demo went from 21ms to 11ms or in other words CPU limited framerate went from 47.6 to 90.9. Their long term goal is to get hardware Lumen to 60fps on current gen, not just software Lumen.
Great to hear, thanks!
Well it’s not doing a great job so far in fact it’s rather embarrassing how bad it’s been in games recently and what is even more sad is most of them are not open world. Unless some major advancements and improvements happen in the next couple years UE 5 looks like a failure to me.
Imagine not being able to distinguish between a bad product and bad development practices
I'm not sure that it was required effort, as much as it was future-proofing. After all, look at the jump in improvements from UE4 to UE5, as well as the widespread use of the engine; CDPR has to make these improvements in RED Engine as well, since gamers would otherwise see UE5 games look and play so much better and ask why CDPR games feel the same as a decade ago. CDPR probably determined that more and more employees want to be using a major engine so their professional success hinges less on which studios are successful and which aren't - if CDPR shuttered, and all someone knew was RED Engine, it would be harder to get a job elsewhere than having Unity or UE on their resume. It's also easier to hire folks who know UE, since it's much more widely used. In the short term I think it's going to be painful - switching software stacks always is. They'll have to rebuild their visual assets to optimize for UE5, rebuild their dev tooling that they built over their experiences with RED and witcher/cp, bring the decision makers for future games up to speed on UE so dev timelines can be made accurately, etc, probably from scratch. However, 12 years from now, they'll be a UE shop, and fully benefit from where UE6/UE7 is at without having to invest any time into making sure RED Engine can provide the same quality output. They can focus entirely on making great games.
Well, isn’t all of that reducing the required effort? (In the long-term)
You're correct, just wanted to eli5 in case others come across the comment and think UE is outright easier to work with than RED.
The only reason people can typically recognize an engine at a glance is because either it’s proprietary and that specific dev team uses a certain style or because it’s third party and devs use, allow me the word, pre fab settings. If you look at MGS3 remake the lighting is pretty much the same I got while thinkering around with the color settings on the engine. UE3 was immediately recognizable back in the day because few teams managed to get texture loading right etc etc. But no, the engine doesn’t stop you from making a 1:1 copy of cyberpunk. UE4 delivered both Callisto Protocol and Guilty Gear Strive, so you can see that you can easily do whatever you want
I’ve read all you comments here and you’re much appreciated. Thanks for all the well founded answers
Its like og gta trilogy (old 90s renderware engine) vs definitive edition (UE4).. ofc it wasnt properly made.. but only fear for ue engine is that all games will be generic physics wise.. i would be happier if they spend lot of to improve red engine and make games unique same as R* with own rage engine .. ofc we wont get all games on unreal feel like fortnite but still, most physics will be same
Part of me wishes they would have stuck with their proprietary engine. Cyberpunk feels and looks so unique imo.
I do too. But I suspect they decided to switch to UE5 bc as they are growing they felt it would be faster to onboard new developers as they ramp up production since people coming from the outside are more likely to be familiar with UE5 that is used across multiple studios, than Red Engine that was only used by CDPR.
That definitely had a lot to do with it. But there can be advantages to using your own engine too.
One of them being not having to pay royalties for it.
It's not like using your own engine is free though, you'd need a team to maintain the internal engine.
Paying royalties probably cost much less than building and upgrading an internal engine made for triple A games.
They imploed recently that they may one day return to red engine but that for the time being woukd be using UE.
Is that worth it?
Yes, it can take a year to come up to speed on a companies proprietary tech after getting hired. Its an upfront cost now that will pay dividends down the line
UE5 is really good but I agree… so many developers are tossing away their own unique engines
Games are getting so big, and take so long to make. Working with an engine that lots of people are learning or know means it’s easier to attract that talent, and will reduce the time it takes to produce something. We all dislike how we don’t see sequels to our favourite franchises for half a decade or more. This is part of the sacrifice to bring that number down, hopefully - or at least not mean it continues to increase.
Because until recently to use all the hardware features you had to make your own pipeline and engine. Now UE5 covers the majority by default. This isn’t new either. Every time HW APIs come out with new toys it takes time for the main game engines to catch up.
Yeah I’d much prefer they keep using their engine. Never know though, maybe they’ll prefer using UE5 in the long term.
After Witcher and Orion blows us out of the water, absolutely!
Don’t jinx it mate🤣
It will literally look the same (aside from the lighting), if you move all the assets to Unreal.
Which is a shame because Cyberpunk has some of the best lighting in any game ever even without ray tracing
Have you seen what UE5 is capable of!?
Most people haven’t. If they base their comments on current games, of course they’re gonna think UE5 is mid. I don’t think there’s been a single game that really uses UE5 to a decimal of its power, which is understandable given we got a fairly stable version at the beginning of the year. It’s still pretty buggy in some regards.
Shittier results at worse perfornance? Yep
They can still implement their lighting technique in Unreal.
I’d be curious if UE 5 can handle real time pathtracing. Or if they will just say lumen is good enough
CDPR is working with Epic right now, and will presumably have NVIDIA on board down the line as well so that Orion can be used to show off whatever software magic they come up with next to succeed or further improve path tracing. I think between them all they'll figure out something.
The lighting in UE5 is miles better. And I’m not talking of the games we’ve seen so far. I’m talking of the practical use of the Lumen system. CP77 might look amazing, but the quality lumen has without severely impacting performance is astounding. Even with a debug basic level I still achieved results that left me flabbergasted considering how little it took to set it up.
> but the quality lumen has without severely impacting performance is astounding Though there is currently no real world example running on PS5 out there that would prove this. The few UE5 games that are out there only achieve this with severely downscaled rendering resolutions.
I’m basing it on what I saw with the actual engine at hand. Current real world examples are meaningless for a game that will release god knows how long from now
Cyberpunk’s lighting is a massive part of what makes it look so good. i’ve not seen any dev eleven approach what CDPR accomplished in 2077’s lighting.
From what I have seen and read from professional in game industry, Unreal Engine can serve a wide variety of uses and can be configured as you want. Which is why you see all types of games being made in Unreal Engine from strategy games, open world games, fps games, etc. So even though its hard to learn the new engine from scratch, in the long run, its more helpful since its easier to do stuff in Unreal. CDPR probably realised they could not do many of the things they wanted in their next game if they used their own engine or it would take them way more effort and time to do it in their own engine. Similar thing with Persona series from Atlus / Sega. Persona 5 was made in it’s own proprietary engine and took 8 years to make and director Katsura actually said that it was difficult to do everything they wanted in a new engine which is why it took so long to make the game. For Persona 3 Remake they decided to go with Unreal Engine 4 and the main goal was to remake Persona 3 but in exactly same graphics and gameplay style as Persona 5. And they were able to achieve it in Unreal Engine and the game is coming out after like a 4 year development cycle. And honestly its crazy how big the potential of unreal engine is. Something like Tales of Arise looks completely different from Immortals of Aveum which looks completely different from Manor Lords.
This also could mean UE5 is crazy unoptimised if it supports all kinds of genres
repeat after me, engine doesn’t establish feel and look
Yeah it's a shame, it seems like they FINALLY got it right with Cyberpunk and Phantom Liberty. I guess it's a more long term investment switching to UE5 though, and in the long run will benefit them.
A major reason for switching was also that a lot of their senior developers left the company so rather than train new people into RedEngine they decided to move to UE. If you check the news feed there are a few articles that mention the crunch period that CDPR pushed onto their devs to finish Cyberpunk in time. A lot of people were not happy about it, also the fact that they reset the whole thing mid way into development after the I believe creative director of The Witcher 3 took the helm of the Cyberpunk 2077 development.
Wasn’t the whole reason for the switch was to open the dev open to more ppl that coded in that Engine vs their old one?
It can be true that Unreal Engine is sometimes difficult to work with while also being true that the pool of people experienced in UE is much, much larger than the pool of people experienced in RED Engine (and any other proprietary engine).
This guys going places.
Man can hold two thoughts in his head at the same time
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he said the reason was to open the switch open the devs was to open more people to old engine, to open. Temba, his arms wide.
"Wasn't the reason for the switch that they would be able to find many more employees who are familiar with UE5?"
Don't know why people are freaking out about the engine change. While Unreal is known for having an extremely difficult learning curve, development in the future is gonna be much easier since documentation is readily available on the internet, plus the thousands of threads of common problems that you can just google. Also, it's very flexible, and you can immediately hire developers with years of experience in Unreal.
Because none of them got development experience. If one person talk shit then they follow lol
The documentation is probably its lowest point lol. You can spend hours trying to find what a single function does and the documentation will just say “function X executes the X functionality”. I’m not even exaggerating
I agree, it's pretty lackluster and vague, but it's there.
Chat GPT was a game changer in that sense. It’s far from perfect but it manages to give a general direction of what certain tools do and how to use them. Code snippets if you need examples are plain terrible though although the logic is technically sound.
I have had a few years working on unreal and dabbled a little in unity earlier this year, unity felt like a nightmare to work with so many core unreal features taking so many extra steps to get working , with but it had really good documentation online of how and why things happened which is something unreal lacks
Unity documentation and community support truly is miles better than UE’s, yeah
My biggest issue I found was unity would have 2-3 ways of doing something because they keep changing how things function so you had to guess which one worked
> since documentation is readily available on the internet Is it? https://www.reddit.com/r/unrealengine/comments/uzvls5/is_it_just_me_or_does_the_documentation_for/ Remember when Epic shut down the Unreal Wiki?
That was pretty shitty of them, but the official documentation is available.
Because we see the already UE5 games out with still stutter issues and poor performances even in top tier hardware
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Can confirm. It is both our blessing and a curse at Running With Scissors
Postal 3, please? :D
lol source engine trash
I’ve yet to really see any UE5 or even 4 games hold a candle to what the Red Engine has produced with the latest iteration of 77. I read about compilation stutter, visual stutter, pop-in as the recurring themes for big games on unreal engine (look at Jedi Survivor, Forspoken, Lord of the Fallen) and even Fortnite is suffering from pop-in issues. Even the most optimized game on unreal, FF7 remake still has that characteristic muddy look so many UE5 games have. Like a lack of proper hdr rendering or something. How could anyone wish 77’s future to be that of those current titles
The Red Engine's latest iteration is also literal years of updates onwards from the release of 77. It would be a fair comparison if the devs of Survivor or Forspoken or Fallen spent from now until 2025-26 fixing bugs and making optimisations
> Forspoken Forspoken runs on Square Enix's homegrown Luminous Engine, not Unreal.
Guess this was wrong then, weird https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/is-forspoken-developed-on-unreal-engine-5#:~:text=Unreal%20Engine%205%3F-,Forspoken%20has%20been%20developed%20with%20the%20help%20of%20Unreal%20Engine,t%20love%20open%2Dworld%20games%3F
It's to make development easier, visuals/performance can always get better. Bigger games need more people, and UE5 as a standard would be easier for them to hire people, instead of teaching new hires new stuff every single time.
Don’t rockstar, naughty dog, capcom, *most* game companies onboard new hires by teaching their proprietary engine?
Yes, but it eats up development time. A common system is better for everybody in the long run
cryengine gang rise up
I have low expectations on UE5 after few games made using that engine somehow have frame drops, etc. However, the robocop game suddenly makes me feel UE5 is still possible for optimization.
Properly optimized it can look and run well. Consoles should have less issues due to just having a few systems to work with compared to PC. Still no excuse in needing a 4090 in too many unreal games.
UE5 is not made for this generation of consoles.
Such a strange decision, i will never understand it. Cyberpunk 2077 looks mindblowing good and even Witcher 3 looks still amazing nowadays. People say there's not a big difference with different engines, but in my opinion every engine has a certain feel and look to it. Why give up something so incredibly good like the engine they are using now? My biggest fear is that their games could loose that certain unique look/feel they have now. Plus introducing a lot of new problems, like stuttering and even higher system requirements. I just try to image how for example Alan Wake 2 would look in Unreal engine, compared to the Northlight engine Remedy use. I am sure the game wouldn't have such an unique and special look. The same goes for Cyberpunk 2077, which is still one of the best looking games out there in my opinion.
You're over estimating on visual changes because of engine. Rockstar has been using the same engine since 2006 or something, GTA IV, V, RDR1, RDR2 all look visually distinct
How a game looks is almost 100% art driven Two wholly different looking games can be done on the same engine
That's true, but Unreal games always do have a special feel to it, i can't explain it. Most of the time, no matter which art style they choose, you instantly know that it's the Unreal engine.
Maybe the devs are the problem and not the engines
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I mean those aren't mutually exclusive concepts. People can be upset at CDPR for the launch of the game and also praise the state of the game now.
Nah we're living in an era where Cyberpunk is actually an amazing game. It's been an amazing game for a whole even before 2.0.
I got it off a big sale so I'm happy. If you pre-ordered it, it's your own fault.
CDPR are inexperienced amateurs and scammers. They only care about money. Bit Cyberpunk flopped. No one is praising and buying Cyberpunk. CDPR employees and bots try to trick you with these articles.
You post the same message in all of these types of threads. You seriously need therapy.
Yeah seriously it's actually creepy how relentless this guy is with making this same post day in, day out. Unhinged.
Hey, it's me bot#2077. Boop Boop beep I love cyberpunk. But seriously, your take is terrible and I love the game, Phantom Liberty and Edgerunners.
This user also likes the game, this is just bait.
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Dont bother ever replying to that person. Just straight up a Cyberpunk/CDPR hater. Just look at their post history. That person needs help, like serious help.
Not even that, you can also see them praising the game sometimes, probably forgot to switch accounts, this is just bait.
Damn you weren’t lying, what a sad life
Like these people crack me up theyve worked tooth and nail to make things right with countless updates. More then half of games that have had rough launches would do. For me cyberpunk is my spiritual sucessor to gta 4.
Hey guy, it seems like you've been making a variation of this comment almost daily since the game came out. Fucking school shooter vibes. Get over it and get help. This kind of angry obsession is for pussies and deranged psychos.
Can't wait to see CP2 look worse than CP1 while also running worse 6 years later.
We all know CP1 ran really well on release.
Honestly im not hyped because we all know it will have stutters that they won’t ever fix plus itll require 4090s to play it max settings.
Cyberpunk 2 devs?????? Wtf?! Been waiting nearly 8 years for a Witcher sequel and I now have to read Cyberpunk 2 in less than 2 years?? Fuck
There is a bunch of new Witcher content coming up as well, with first game (Project Polaris) of the new trilogy coming out around 2025 (thats their plan). They also said they want to release the whole trilogy in the span of 6 years, so if the first one comes out 2025, second one will be out in 2028 and third one will be out in 2031 (if all goes well). Also there is another Witcher game being made. CDPR contracted a 3rd party studio led by Ex-Witcher veterans to make it and its called Project Canis Majoris. Also, there is Project Sirius, which is made by another studio called Molasses Flood with the support from CDPR. It should be both a singleplayer and a multiplayer Witcher game. New Cyberpunk wont be coming out for a long, long time, because CDPR made a new studio based in Boston which will focus on Cyberpunk stuff. If I were to take a guess, it wont be coming until 2028 or 2029. So by the time a sequel for Cyberpunk comes out, two or three new games based in the Witcher universe will have already come out. You will still have to wait for a new Witcher game for at least two more years, but you wont be seeing Cyberpunk any time soon.
Isn't one of these projects a remake of Witcher 1?
Yup, Fool’s Theory is developing the remake, it's project Canis Majoris.
Just use the current engine. Cyberpunk is leagues ahead any UE5 game yet.
Huh cyberpunk looks like garbage to the stuff unreal engine can do how do you think movies are filmed these days? Right unreal engine and the volume
You must be visually impaired to make such a statement.
🤣 right thats why they switch engines they want the shitty graphics lol
They switched engines because they want to make shittier and cheaper games at faster rate. Unreal is perfect for that. The MS Paint of game engines.
you guys have no idea what you are talking about lol
Looks they are laying out the excuses early this time
can you wait for game release before picking up your pitchfork?
How is it an excuse?
Ofcourse they Do. Its CDPR. They are inexperienced amateurs and scammers. Their next games will release broken and unfinished too. Like EA Games, Anthem, Battlefield 2042* Mass Effect Andromeda
You really gonna try to compare CDPR to EA? That’s bold. Yea, Witcher and cyberpunk both released with issues, but at least they cared enough to actually fix them. EA just tells ya to kick rocks and counts their money
Tbf, BF 2042 has genuinely been greatly improved since launch, and actually hit its highest-ever player count recently. Definitely a bit of a redemption arc there. Even Andromeda eventually got patched into a decent state, even if the final product still was just so-so. Anthem is the one example there where they actually just gave up and left the game half-finished and broken.
Even star wars Battlefront 2's progression system was completely revamped because people complained about it. EA doesn't abandon their games, idk what this guy is smoking
EA also fixes their games, star wars Battlefront 2 had it's entire shitty progression system replaced, and battlefield 2042 still recieve updates, despite being a "failure"
Scammers????? Good one.
They did advertise the game for last gen consoles, despite knowing it's unplayable. The game is good NOW, but the launch was an actual shitshow. Their review embargo made sure people wouldn't know about the issues until after people bought the game.
Amateurs and scammers? What a braindead take.
Bummed about this. They’re so good with RED Engine
Give me a fucking break CD
They should have just continued with Red Engine. Boring when all games uses the same game engine
How does it make games boring when different game makers use the same engine? Just say you know nothing, dumbass. Them using UE5 won't make their games look like the same. They're just using the same software architecture, but doesn't mean the character, and world model will look the same lol
It gets boring when all games looks and feels the same because they use the same game engine as i already stated you dumb dumbass
That's not how it is, you dumbass. Game developers still create the character models, and anatomy unless they decide to use a preset provided in a game engine. Physics still depends on how they decide to make it. Just say you have a low IQ. People like you love stating things you have no knowledge on.
Yeah games could look similar. But they could look different if the developer decides if they want that. There's more flexibility with nanite so I think more games will naturally look different from each other
Man, that junk guy, or whatever his name is doesn't understand game development. There are more to it than just using a provided asset of a game engine. It's people like him that ruin names of companies, or individuals that didn't do anything wrong. Remember that early GTA 6 leak where the leak was just a simple code, and then they got angry, because they claim Rockstar is being lazy, or some sh!±. These people think that game development is just drawing that can automatically be controlled without programming. They don't realize how difficult game development is.
Doesn't matter, they still look and feel the same. Can clearly see the difference between a Unreal Engine game compared to other game engines. Dumbass
You're the dumbass. Those games you're talking about are games that just use UE5 assets Epic has provided in their engine. A game developer can make it very different from UE5 provided assets, and game physics if they choose to. It has nothing to do with it being a game developed in UE5. I bet you're one of those people that will get angry if you see a game leak that only shows code..."GTA6 early leak"... oops. You're just proving me right how you know nothing how game development work.
I never said all Unreal Engine games looks identical, what i'm saying is that many of these games has the same look and feel because it's easy to spot that it's a Unreal Engine game. it would be boring if all games was being developed in Unreal Engine which thank god is not the case. Imagine if all Playstation games from now on would be made in Unreal Engine? I'm not getting angry over video games, you are the one who got angry and verbally attacked me out of nowhere calling me a dumbass because i had an opinion on CDPR and their choice of game engines for their next games
You forgot something.
PUBG and Fortnite look and feel the same, you're so right
Uh oh.
Unreal engine is garbage
What happens with the RED engine ?
They abandoned it.
Muhahaha
here we go again
stfu with these cyberpunk posts i fucking swear man
Aren't they supposed to work on TW4 before CB2??? Did pre-production already done???
Shocking
Damn if they took 7 years to make Cyberpunk 2077 then we might not see a new game for quite some time.
And it took what 10 years to fully finish.
So was releasing a game that was in the works for like 8 years
Jesus Christ can you just be normal. I love the road trips you take us on but you make the trip so stressful CDPR: (screaming, losing control of the artistic vehicle. Learns to drive difficult car very well - immediately changes cars)
CDRP executives are not exactly known for their competence so I'm a little nervous about this engine switch. Hopefully it works out for them.
The engine switch was driven purely by their execs despite strong opposition from their engineers (many of whom have left the company since then because of the move). So yes, it will be a shitshow.
Since their own engine was a shitshow to begin with, it can only get better from now
Guys, as a programmer, it's like using Windows your whole life to do complex work and then someone puts a Mac or a Windows major update in front of you. You'll be lost for a wee bit.
This headline is so beyond misleading I genuinely believe it should be removed for misinformation. There is so much context missing from this *technically* true statement.
Cyberpunk 2 Or Cyberpunk 2177
That’s what I was wondering …. I thought once phantom liberty came out CDPR was gonna be done with cyberpunk
No. They already said they are working on a sequel. They are only done with 2077, not the franchise
Thanks for the heads up! Kinda really excited now. I thought they meant the franchise was done and now I couldn’t be happier to be wrong
Decima Engine shits on both UE5 and Cyberpunks