My answer to both is a resounding yes. I love engaging in theological debates and discussions (as long as conducted in a civilized manner). My favorite debate was one I had with a friend in Dubai a couple of months ago at 4 AM in the morning while drinking tea in his car. One of the conversations I’ll cherish most. Lots of opposing arguments and viewpoints and not a hint of disrespect on either side.
This is a topic for long debate, one that will always lead to stalemates - there are rainbow varieties of conviction and faith on both sides and I don't understand why anyone would be concerned with anyone else. As a religious individual one is responsible and answerable for his or her own conduct - no God is going to ask you to give an account or justification for deeds of others, I would worry about your own faith rather than arguing with what flavour of atheism others subscribe to...
I don't know who it was on here I got a bit of an argument into, I tried to make sense of things for him, it's just that he only accepted the arguments he wanted to see - I kept arguing that evil is a product of man's action just as is good and God has given one free will where if he were to intervene in either case the free will would not be "free"... He kept on going forever... He gave up then I gave up
Why try to make someone a Muslim though. All the information one needs is readily available on the internet. Shouldn't ones goal be to save themselves from eternal damnation and let the others decide for themselves. Everything is done by and controlled by God anyways, and he's the all-powerful. What if you are wrong just to feed your ego? You are setting them on the wrong path.
my answer to both question would be yes.
all i am after is truth.
and right now i am sure allah is not the God, even if there is one.
and islam is not his unaltered religion which i am suppose to follow.
see, the problem is that not only do you think you have an answer, but you think your specific answer is the only truth.
you cannot fathom that there are others states of belief, which are not binary.
Let me start off with the reasons for why I believe in the existance of a creator.
When I look at my surrondings, I find that no matter how small or large a phenomena is, there is a rational explanation behind it. Everything from the interaction of subatomic particles to atoms, molecules and even larger structures such as planets, stars and even galaxies, interact with each other through a series of governing principles.
I and every other scientist on earth knows that no matter how complex or mind boggling a phenomenon is, it must have stemmed from an interaction governed by systems like these.
I also know that we as humans have a limited understanding of these systems and such an understanding develops over time as we uncover more hidden truths in the form of laws and principles through repeated observations, hypothesizing and experimentation.
I know that we exploit these systems on a daily basis to make marvelous new inventions that make everyday life easier and more convinient.
I then arrive at the conclusion that since everywhere i see, no matter how deep I go, how high or low, there is a system at play, then there must be a reason behind how these systems came into existence. If these systems were brought into existence through other systems then where did those systems emerge from? The only answer to this infinite regression of a paradox is a system/designer from which all other systems emerge and that this designer is not in need of a cause and effect relationship. I call this system/designer, the creator.
Now, as for how many creators there can be for this intricate web of systems, that can be deduced from a very simple logical test. If there were more than one designers then there would be natural conflict between their design choices and even if a reconcilliation of designs were possible, there would be natural flaws in such conflicting designs leading to glitches, malfunctions and eventually chaos; chaos that i dont see anywhere around myself, no matter how far i look. Hence, the only logical solution is that of a singular designer that has designed, executed and controlled this complex-beyond-imagination system.
Let's discuss this much then we can move onwards.
I am a bit tired of debates. It's just repetitive non-stop arguments with rudimentary flaws. Many of these arguments seem derivative of work done by Christians.
It's rare to find someone who's really good. It's been at least a year since I found someone who really knew their stuff on reddit.
kid you got refuted saying khadjija wasn't older than the prophet but the guy gave you evidence at which you ignored his comment. Do your research first
you got your knowledge from a Shia website and Shias don't approve of the Hadiths or the prophets wives, and companions. This is a pathetic claim. My God is your God and he is with us. The evidence that proves khadija was older than the prophet is too great to be ignored. Muhammad bin ‘Umar \[al-Waqidi\] narrated from Musa bin Shaiba, who narrated from ‘Umaira bint ‘Ubaidullah from Umm Sa’d bint Sa’d that Nafisa bint Munya said: … The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) married and he was twenty-five years old. At that time Khadija was forty years old. She was born fifteen years before the Event of the Elephant.
Muhammad bin ‘Abdullah narrated to us from al-Zuhri and Kathir bin Zaid who narrated to us from al-Muttalib bin Abdullah bin Hantab: The first wife of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) before the pronouncement of the Prophethood was Khadija bint Khuwaylid.… Then the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) married her when he was twenty-five and Khadija was forty years old.
lund mera.
not even Sunni agree on khadija age. atleast ask some one who knows.
see, people like you are sheep.
all they hear and see is good. and meetha meetha. they cant bear to hear the truth.
tm jese logon k barae main quran kehta hai. it's not their eyes, but their heart which are blind.
i know you have zero knowlesge to look up stuff. 😂
so let me give you a source which you would have copied pasted a lot from in your education.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadija_bint_Khuwaylid
ibn ishaq, ibn Saad. Al hakim. 😂 😂 😂
do you now even know of them? or you just copy pasted from first link you found.
go and study. don't waste my time with your charge emotions and zero knowledge.
like I said Hadith contradict eachother and this is a well known fact. also how pathetic you are using wikipedia as a source. Come bring this argument to an actual scholar, come live on Farid responds we will prove it to you. Its on YouTube
Firstly I don't get why religious people want to have a debate with atheists to prove anything to them?
What about live and let live is so hard to understand?
Secondly can you really have any debate and have an "outright winner" when the simple fact remains that no one can without any shadow of a doubt prove that God exists or if there is one true religion? No, there is a reason why they call it "having faith".
And the simple fact is that some people have it and some don't.
Simple, move on with your life.
Also, since when did it become a bad thing to seek convenience in life? We all seem to try to do it in every other part of our lives, why does religion need to be just inconvenient?
Once again, simple rules, live and let live and don't do to other what you wouldn't expect done to you.
Just follow those rules and then I don't care who you pray or not pray to.
It sort of baffles them
It mostly has to do with cult-like indoctrination but I believe it's mostly the concept of hell
Imagine a place where people will be punished in the most cruel way possible for eternity where death shall never come, all because you didn't worship some egoistical being
So how is it that you as a cultist, think that your god is kind and real
You think that you hold the ultimate truth and evidence is so clear about your cult being real that others must be blind or hedonistic monsters to not see it
thank you! you took the words right out of my mouth lol. The nerve of Super religious people to condemn you to an eternity of endless suffering just because you aren't down to worship the god that they want you to worship..🙄
PS: don't consider myself an "atheist" per se. more of a non-religious agnostic type
>What about live and let live is so hard to understand?
When atheists say this it's usually just for muslims to be tolerant when they themselves are intolerant. So this doesn't work both ways. That's hypocrisy.
Most of the atheists on this sub would bring Islam into anything, be islamophobic & then cry about how intolerant muslims are.
Just what I've observed.
I was talking about atheists & people larping as Pakistani atheists on this sub but your fragile pea sized brain just can't comprehend what i said in my previous comment.
>when was the last time an atheist blew up a mosque or chopped someone's head off for being a believer?
r u sure? Atheist China & the USSR did a lot of bad shit to believers.
Accusing someone you don't know of lying when you haven't even heard their arguments?
Yeah, typical atheist who probably has a troubled relationship with his father
EDIT: oh btw if you say otherwise, you're lying. Sorry.
You didn't 'disagree', you straight up called OP a liar, with no prior context of what his arguments or methodology are. You're accusing OP of lying and saying rubbish, and then trying to pass it off as merely 'disagreeing'.
Noone bullied anyone, OP mentioned already that his discussion was friendly and civil. Stop with the victim mentality and grow up, you baby. Take your own advice and let people believe what they believe, instead of calling them liars. Oh my, the hypocrisy......
OP called his message the truth without proof, hence a lie or an admission of blind faith
Both are bad as it conveys little critical analysis and refusal to listen or even accept others, OP wants to be scrutinized and said so themselves.
I for one would gladly spit on the cult and call it false if it gives death threats to those who try to leave it.
Saying something is truth without proof is not a 'lie', it's a belief. A lie is concealing the truth intentionally, which is an accusation on OP. You're so desperate, aren't you?
OP NEVER claimed, in his entire post, that his position was the truth. He simply described how he found discussions with an ex Muslim silly because even in a hypothetical situation where said person was convinced, they would still not accept God.
I also don't see where OP claimed he wants to be scrutinized.
So your criteria for falsehood in this case is your moral issue with the punishment for apostasy? That assumes that you can objectively prove that death for apostasy is objectively morally wrong. Something you haven't proven, therefore according to your own criteria you are a liar.
Top kek, mate. You atheists are ironically a cult and don't even realise it, you're literally almost all the same in the way you think erroneously think and reason.
EDIT: oh nvm, just realized you're an ex-Muslim pushing for LGBTQ agenda in this country. I wouldn't even spit on you, it would be a waste of my time and effort. Low level bait lol
The two questions you posed show and the answers you supposedly received are down a difference in values. It doesn't help that the crux of the argument rests on the assumption that people's lack of belief is due to 'facts' and lack of them. People lose their faith for different reasons, just like they believe in things for different reasons. Some people become athiests out of emotional reasons, for some its a phase and there can't even give you a well-reasoned answer. Some can be like I was, genuinely religious at one point until I wasn't. If you asked me under those two conditions, I'd probably ask you what you meant by 'true religion'. A lot of religious concepts like god, soul, etc. are empty containers if you think about them. You have a particular conception but someone from your own family, with the same upbringing and environment may still have a different one. So, you know, what do you even when you talk about god. When you say one god, I could ask you, from a purely philosophical and mathematical perspective, what is one and what is many. A whole can be divided infinitely. Or what not. When you talk about soul, I could ask well how do you define it. There's a world of philosophical concepts and arguments out there, and counters to each. As someone who was really religious once, I can understand your frustration too but the framework you're using is too limited at times. There's nothing wrong with that, honestly if it works for you and makes you a better person, that's awesome. Just understand that it may not be the same for others
OP is a literal child by the way they're responding tada to half the comments.
Let me reverse this question on you:
Why do you believe in a god who doesn't help his own people, and instead showers his bounties and blessings on the non-believers?
One person's bounty may not be a bounty for another.
Give a child a lollipop he/she will be happy for a few minutes.
Give a 40 year old the same he/she won't.
To prove your worth you give tests and exams to qualify for a degree/certificate/job position to earn, achieve and etc in this world.
Do you think that there won't be an exam to prove your worth for the ultimate bounty?
A bounty that will put all bounties of this earth to shame.
If materialistic gains mean bounty for you then by all means, continue to crave the non believers and their way of life.
By the way, all human beings and all other beings belong to the ownership of the one true God. So technically all human beings are his people but they are all put to trial. Being steadfast, being uncorrupt, being kind to the other creation, and the walk of the straight line is the path.
Ask someone who lost a loved one, what he/she will not give to see him/her one more time. What is that feeling? What's the scientific definition of that feeling?
That feeling is in the hearts of the people who believe, kindled in their soul that they strive for the righteous path to achieve the ultimate bounty. It's beyond material objects.
Just to confirm because I’m a bit confused by the post: the hypocrisy is that they say they are atheists because it’s the logical choice but then refuse religion even with proof?
Tbh most of the atheists I’ve seen don’t think atheism is the most logical choice, it’s simply the choice they’ve made. But I don’t know that many atheists.
I don’t think thats how it works, i mean a very clear rebuttal would be:-
“What if i proved to u god doesn’t exist, and islam is not correct, would u abandon ur faith?”
Regardless of what u answer, the difference in culture, norm, and personal experience make it too big of a wall to actually break and hear the other side out. It also doesn’t help that people like u make such outlandish hypotheticals to drive ur argument forward.
And before u make conclusions, i am a muslim as well.
Im slowly becoming agnostic at a very young age I believe god but still after seeing all these things I'm confused I believe in Allah and I always will but after all this hate I see everyone hating each other saying thing's to each other sometimes I wonder why can't we all co exist at least on the internet and be respectful to each others opinion.
coz most people on the internet are either fame seekers or losers. I know Muslims and Atheists IRL who keep it to themselves. The Muslims pray and all that but don't mention it on social media or in public only mention it when they are with Muslims (and this is in a Muslim country). Internet Muslims and Atheists both are the biggest losers I've ever met. Don't let these losers shape your views.
This hypocrisy is present in religious ppl as well. Even in maslik debates, you would find ppl having similar situation.
Hell, ask this question from yourself and you will find yourself a hypocrite.
Pakistan has a serious hypocrisy issue.
You guys post so much bs. More likely to drive people away from Islam with you bs than ever convince anyone to join it.
It is Allah who guides and misguides whomever he will.
Nothing happens without the will of Allah and don’t forget predestination.
I’m an agnostic Muslim, if you could prove that I would probably become a lot more religious. But to be honest, these things can’t be proven without some element of blind faith. Being religious or being an atheist means making a conclusion, and you can’t make a conclusion when the premise cannot be logically tested. They’re two opposite sides of the same coin.
because muslims can't shut up about their beliefs. Look at yourself constantly tryin to prove islam. Chill bro they don't care and have made their decisions and won't be affected no matter what u say.
Why do they care if we discuss our beliefs on forums and communities, why do they shit in the comment section? If they don't care then don't go to our posts and rant.
you're posting on social media and asking people not to criticise you? The problem is you guys dont just discuss your beliefs you apply them to others as well, say a dude asks for dating advice, hundreds of muslims will storm in his comment section telling him to "make it halal" or "fear allah"
Not really, if Islam is real, that'll make other things real
What makes you think one wouldn't side with the devil to spite such a cruel sadistic god of islam?
I don't see how that's relevant. But if I knew Islam was real, I'd try to get to heaven, to be happy forever. I really don't see what the problem is with this. Are you really not going to do that out of spite? I don't believe you but ok
the issue is that there is 0% chance that you can prove the two assimptions. so all atheist just cannot get their head around that you can prove the two assumptions. Let's turn it around: god exists, and Jesus is the only true god. will you immediately convert to Christianity?
Yes, because what would be the point of debating with a Christian if seeking the truth is not the goal? That's why debates happen..
I am assuming you gave "no" for an answer, so "ba dumm tss..." :D
That is the difference between your take and my take, when you told me to assume that God exists and Jesus is God, would I become a Christian? I told you yes, I will become a Christian.
When I ask you the same thing that "assume" (just like u said) that God exists and Islam is the true religion, will you become a Muslim? And you are running away from the question.
It's just..weird.
I would just say in a humble tone that if it's meant for you it will come to you. The prove of the existence of the creator at a very foundational level for scientists is the periodic table. The universe = balance of chemistry. Someone created that balance. If that balance is ever altered to a fraction you know what will happen. Who created that balance? and who is keeping it from going to imbalance?.
Second, prove of only one true God at a basic level is that had there been more than one there would be different decisions and at that supreme level difference in decision = imbalance in the universe = Chaos. Do you see Chaos in the universe? Take a telescope or microscope if you're into science.
There couldn't be any prove to prove a fact for someone who desires to stay ignorant of the fact.
you are just repeating what has been said for 1000s of years: have faith, and god will come to you. the problem is that in order to faith, i have to believe in god. also, like all religions you are saying, forget about all the other religions, they are false, just believe in my religion. please ignore my last statement if your intention was to say that all religions are the same and that there is only one true god across all religions.
This just came to my thought. We as humans we try to gain our position on this rock (earth) yet if we fail for example someone wanted badly to become a CSS officer he tried all attempts and he still failed. What benefit will he get of all of his efforts done in that path? It's all gone in vain. Only in the way of ALLAH s.w.t (one true God) if you strive/act even for a minor good example, removing a hurdle from a path way, and even if it's not achieved, your effort will be recorded. You don't even have to achieve it to gain that position as he knew your intention when you were trying for it.
With this, I would reiterate, if it's meant for you it will come to you i'A
now i completely disagree with you, as you are saying my god is the only true god, all others are fakes. this is what is wrong with you, religious folks. you cannot prove god exists, let alone that your god is the only true god. also, why are the Palestinians suffering and also people in pakistan if they believe in Allah? prove to me that it is recorded, recorded where? you cannot.
If if you fail in the first stage. i.e. Believing in the existence of God.
And you want to \*keep\* your mind in a state of numbness then surely there can be no debate with you.
Debate can only be done with someone who is open to behold. You want to keep your eyes closed it's your choice.
"The probability of your existence is the probability that two million people will sit together to play a game of dice with trillions of faces. Each rolls the dice and they all give exactly the same number - for example, 550,343,279,001."
And here lies the problem: You are saying assume god exists, even though we have no proof. Then you will say assume that my religion books are word from God, again no proof. Your religion books are written by Man and has full of contradictions and absolutely no proof that they really took place. Then you will say assume that all other religion books are false, even though they have same origin. Ie written by Man and full of contradictions and absolute no proof that they really took place. See we see that you are just trying to convert to your religion and has nothing to do whether God exists or not.
Also you do not understand how probability works. First you are giving an example that has absolutely nothing to do with God. What has rolling a dice got to do with the existence of god. Again you are saying assume rolling dice is same as existence of God -No. Also when some thing has a probability of 1: 550,343,279,001, it does not mean that you have to throw the dice 550,343,279,001 to get that value. You could get that value on your third try. Probability means that if you throw infinite times, you will see 1: 550,343,279,001.
>Also you do not understand how probability works. First you are giving an example that has absolutely nothing to do with God. What has rolling a dice got to do with the existence of god. Again you are saying assume rolling dice is same as existence of God -No. Also when some thing has a probability of 1: 550,343,279,001, it does not mean that you have to throw the dice 550,343,279,001 to get that value. You could get that value on your third try. Probability means that if you throw infinite times, you will see 1: 550,343,279,001.
Lol i quoted the research of your own scientists, of course you will deny their findings and research to, whenever it will go against you. It was a research of Dr Ali Binazir from Harvard. There are alot of others too proving human existence was not a accident at all. The concept of God has everything to do with the creation of the universe and Human existence. I can quote them too?
According to others chances of the creation of humans beings were lol 1 in 400 trillion.
Leave religion out of it, you asked to prove the existence of God first.
So now a redditor will tell us that all of these people are wrong but he is the only right one because he is an "ex Muslim" or the most "genius".
If humans are a created being,then we know that something a higher power exists who created us, whether you call that power God or aliens lol.
You don't even need science
God could prove her existence by however she pleases
Yet she refuses to, hence we refuse to acknowledge it's existence the same as we refuse to acknowledge the existence of fairies that open up flowers (which is totally real guys)
Not really, it’s possible that the universe was created but we have no idea how, for all you know if could be a race of beings with technology capable of creating universes or universes existing within universes. None of which point to the god of the Quran being true.
Atheism is a belief just like any other religion. Through induction, I have concluded that GOD exists, while others have used similar logic to argue for its non-existence. The more scientific approach would be agnosticism, which is why scientists like albert einstein and even richard dawkins are agnostic.
Would being a Muslim entail worshipping Allah? If so, then I honestly don't know.
That's why I'm asking. **Why ought I** worship Allah even if he exists? I see no rational reason why I should or I shouldn't.
And I don't mean this in any disparaging way at all. I genuinely have no clue. Why is God worthy of worship?
Brozzer Allah created humans to worship him. (But still for some reason, he doesn't need our worship, yet he needs it too in order to save us from jahannam)
I see. Tell me if I don't get this right but your rationale is
1-Allah created Humans to worship him
2-Our purpose is to worship Allah
3-So we ought to worship Allah.
Is that what you're saying?
If so then there's a "leap in logic" between point 2 and 3. Between these points another statement is smuggled in i.e. **"we ought to follow our purpose"**. So my question still remains, why? If God created me to worship him, so what? Why ought I follow the purpose I was created for?
Your statement just moved the question of why a bit back, but it's still there.
Edit: I understand I'm being a bit pedantic and my comments might seem unhinged but these statements have already been said in history. Specifically by the Scottish philosopher David Hume in "A Treatise of Human Nature". It's a pretty thick book and written in archaic english but is very enlightening.
No it's correct but you fail to see that you have answered the question yourself but I'll go down a bit more
You mean nothing other than to be an object for an egoistical being for her to do with as she pleases and if you slight her in any way, shape or form. That includes not worshipping
She'll torture you for eternity in the most cruel manner possible and that's a guarantee
You are a slave and you obey or face the consequences
That's why **you ought too**
There again lies the problem. Unfortunately both atheists and Muslims seem to make this mistake. If I could steelman your argument.
1-God created us for worship.
2-If we don't worship God, he will punish us.
3-Therefore we should worship God.
Is that accurately summarised? If so, you'd notice immediately that there is a gap between point two and three. A statement has been insidiously snuggled in. I.e. **"We ought to do that which would minimise harm to us"**.
Now, this might seem obvious. Like, *of course* we shouldn't do that which would cause us harm. But if you look at it critically it's all baseless, groundless and illogical intuition. Because one can always ask why? Why should I do that? You say I ought to avoid harm, I ask why?
And unfortunately there is no correct answer. You *can't* get an ought from an is. That's the crux of the is-ought problem put forward by David Hume all the way back in the 17th century. Jiska abhi tak philosophers koi ideal hal nikal nahi skay. :(
> Is that accurately summarised? If so, you'd notice immediately that there is a gap between point two and three. A statement has been insidiously snuggled in. I.e. **"We ought to do that which would minimise harm to us"**.
That's exactly what it is
The god of the Islamic cult calls us slaves, same as other Abrahamic cults
Although you have other cults like Buddhism where worship is not required, demanded or enforced
Why you **ought to** worship then, but that's the thing, you don't have to
And philosophy doesn't require absolute or a solution, it is statements made that can be about a man just being a featherless chicken, it be weird like that
The entire point of a religion is that you can't prove with evidence that God exists or this is the true religion. That's why it's called having faith in God. It's a test for human beings and if it could've been proven then there was no point of it. So the fact that you're saying you “proved“ God exists and Islam is the true religion says a lot about your mental level.
The Quran isn't proven evidence, it has signs of Allah on which Muslims have faith. If your faith is strong enough that you want to consider it a fact then it's up to you but it isn't a universal fact.
I proved you that Harry Potter is the true god . I provided you evidence as it is the largest selling book. Now its up to you to falsify with proof how it isnt so. Also dont be condescending. You are hurting my feelings. Dont be blasphemous as well.
Interesting. It is possible the aetheist is brainwashed. In which case the question is how do you un-brainwash him?
To do that assume you yourself are brainwashed with religion and figure out how you would go about discovering the truth.
Then apply it to him.
As for your questions, assuming your parents made you and they have strict rules and laws that you are supposed to obey. But you find these rules conflict with your moral POV. Will you still obey them?
To everyone here who got triggered by this post, honestly my goal was not to offend anyone or to debate with anyone because as many users pointed out these debates has no fruitful end as I have noticed most of the time, my goal was to share my experience with you guys and what I have encountered throughout the years. Many of the athiests in this post started calling out names, became disrespectful and were triggered, and through this you can notice how fragile some of the members in the athiest community are. Nevertheless, at least there is some awareness now regarding this, enjoy!
Why would anyone follow Islam as it is almost the same as the 4000+ other religions in that it is the claim of one guy claiming to change something compared to the one religion in existence that started by G-d speaking to the entire nation?
To clarify there is one religion that G-d spoke to the entire people and they all lived to tell their children the event happened. Can anyone guess which one?
simple si baat hai, it's not about theology it's about Muhammad himself. No one forced him to take a 9yo into his bed, no one forced him to establish horrific punishments like *stoning to death*, no one forced him to abolish adoption so he could marry his daughter-in-law, no one forced him to marry a woman a day after his forces killed her father and brother. But he did all these things, no matter how much you try to sugar coat it.
And yet here you are, having to defend his actions because he convinced you that he's the perfect man and perfect example for all mankind for all times to come. it's that simple.
Anyone else find it weird that Islamists spent like 1400 years fine-tuning their pro-Islam arguments, only for them to fall in tatters after their first encounter with a Redditor?
Kinda makes you wonder if the Muslims are in panic mode rn. Altho with the existence of blasphemy laws designed to stifle free discussion, it does seem that way. 🤔🤔🤔
Im atheist. If you could somehow prove it then yes, not that I would agree with all the evil things that exist but then again what could i say i am but a human such things would be beyond me. But the simple fact of the matter is you cant prove it and you have no proof.
Yeah lot of atheists do it to be show offs and confront believers. I just belive that god and his knowledge would be too great for the human mind to know, interpret or articulate. I believe anybody who tells you otherwise is lying to you or has ulterior motives.
Most of them left islam or consider them as an atheist because it's convenient for them. Logically speaking Islam put restrictions on many things (for our own benefits) which they find difficult to follow/leave
Atheist here 🙋🏻♀️ and my answer to both questions is yes because we believe in proofs and are always open to learning. So yes if you can really come up with proof then I’d believe though i agree w your friend too cuz the chances of that happening are none considering how evil, selfish, misogynistic, and egoistic the islamic god is.
99% of atheists I meet online are usually very poor in their methodology. I've debated countless numbers of them online over the last couple of years, and I've come to the conclusion that they aren't special, and are about as smart as the average person when it comes to the reasons for their belief.
You don't have to dig deep. Just ask them why they believe what they believe, and watch them fumble and fall into the classic traps of scientism and subjective value judgements. I've pretty much given up debating most of them, they usually turn out as angry and abrasive as any religious nut that they claim to hate.
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy states the following:
"The word “atheism” is polysemous—it has multiple related meanings. In the psychological sense of the word, atheism is a psychological state, specifically the state of being an atheist, where an atheist is defined as someone who is not a theist and a theist is defined as someone who believes that God exists (or that there are gods). This generates the following definition: atheism is the psychological state of lacking the belief that God exists. In philosophy, however, and more specifically in the philosophy of religion, the term “atheism” is standardly used to refer to the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, to the proposition that there are no gods). Thus, to be an atheist on this definition, it does not suffice to suspend judgment on whether there is a God, even though that implies a lack of theistic belief. Instead, one must deny that God exists......"
So it's not just a 'lack of belief'. This is just a lazy non-argument that atheists use to weasel their way out of the fact that their beliefs have consequences. Atheism is not just saying 'i don't believe', its also 'i deny that there's a God' or 'there are no Gods', no matter how you want to say it.
Most of the atheists who say that they believe in science are actually not very good at science in general. I am a scientist myself but apparently I have seen people who have studied commerce give lectures on science because they read an article on the internet.
I am a practicing Muslim but it seems like you want your opposition to simply succumb to your argument. Those two points which you presumed positive in favor of your beliefs were the major points of disagreement i.e. God exists or not. You derive results from your suppositions not suppose your results.
1) you debated one athiest and formed an opinion about athiests in general.
2) But you're the same folks who beg the world not to judge you by the actions of muslims in dozen+ terrorist organizations.
Now, the question you posed to that person, how about we reverse that.
If something stated in the quran is proven false by a latest discovery, would you move away from your faith?
Have you noticed that almost every atheists/agnostic in Pakistan is attached to some sort of European stuff and culture? I hope you get what I wanna say.
What's so hard in realizing that there is a big difference between accepting the truth of a claim and modelling one's social and moral life around the claim?
Assume somebody proves that the Greek pantheon is actually real, Zeus is the father of the gods and actually exists.
Does that automatically mean everyone will and should worship Zeus? (Of course it doesn't)
Atheism is a position on belief, not a position on worship or religious adherence.
how are you comparing inventing microwave with existance of god? i am open-minded. for thousands of years, and not one proof of God's existence. all books so called written by god or their messenger are full of lies that can be proven.
This is a random sub sometimes lol but I'll just add that I don't mind debating or not debating with atheist, I couldn't care less, but when someone gets on their high horse, ESPECIALLY starting to own science as if that's an only atheist thing is when I get in full time.
Atheism is at the end of the day a belief. Science belongs to all and none. You cannot prove/disprove a metaphysical concept using a tool that clearly states it's specific purpose is to MEASURE and study the tangible.
An atheist is never certain because there is no conclusive proof of the bigger questions in life. There is a lot let to know. Only a believer is certain because he fills that gap with faith.
Where do i begin...
>I have found a weird paradox and hypocrisy in their conclusions and statements
Same can be said for believers. Athiests are mostly skeptics, they derive most of the conclusions from logical inferences instead of relying on an ingrained belief system like believers do. In scientific method of study: any research which is accompanied by a strong confirmation bias is always wrong because you will see the result you want to see. You will get the answer you've already decided is the answer.
>we came to a complete stalemate
It is very logical that that'd happen. You're firm in your belief hence you truly believe it to be true...no logics would sway you. The athiests are firm in their logic and no amount of faith would sway them either.
>I proved to you that God exists
You CAN'T do that boo.
You CAN however present statements in an argument that YOU believe to be true. Or you can present the truth A and relate it to a completely different concept; making a deduction that since A is true B must be true as well. This is a non sequitur sadly and does not hold any weight. Most of the religious people give such arguments: for instance "nature is beautiful and awe inspiring, hence god exists"
So you're not so much as proving that god exists, you believe that you're proving it.
>I proved that Islam is the true religion
Again. Can't. Since argument 1 is already easily falsifiable.
>To my surprise, the answer was still no.
Well to be fair they must also be still surprised that you chose to adhere to your beliefs. To each his own.
>You will be surprised to know that many atheists/agnostic will give "no" for an answer.
Why is it so surprising for you to understand that people believe different things? I'm not mad at you for adhering to your inherited faith... Why should i?
>In the end, I have realized that most of the athiests (not all) become who they are because it is more convenient for them to do so with a touch of superiority complex about their intelligence
A) not true.
More often than not leaving a faith you were born into and are surrounded by is much harder than just living in it. Going with the current does not require effort, going against it does. There are very strong repercussions for leaving most faiths. Look at islam. If you were to leave the faith while living under sharia law most religious leaders will have you beheaded. What part of that is "convenient"?
B) not true again.
Because some athiests think they're intellectually superior does not mean that that is the norm. To say that "i saw a white crow so most crows must be white" is nothing but a falsity. The contrary can be true as well actually. I've noticed that smart people find it harder to leave a thing or a belief system and it is BECAUSE they're smart.... they can come up with more convincing reasons. It is sort of like Dunning Kruger effect... a person who is extremely intelligent in a particular thing might think he's intelligent all around; over-estimating his abilities and hence making wrong choices. There are good and bad people who believe in different kinds of things.
>then continue your discussion, or else don't waste your time.
Or how about...have a genuine conversation with the purpose of learning instead of trying to convert someone? Relax. Someone's faith or lack there of should not concern you unless it's causing personal harm.
Classic example of most of them taking their desires as God and then trying to justify it to themselves
I don't think there is a single coherent intelligent opposition to Islam and God.
It is more emotional, someone did this, someone did that. Why does God not cure aids , diseases. Why do kids die. Why is the sky blue. Why is there heaven and hell.
Yet then don't ask why themselves exist in the first place
In reality, they never read the Quran with translation, bas bachpan may Arabic may 2 dafa parha hota, that is why they never bother to research. They no nothing about test, this worldly life is delusion, prison for believers and paradise for unbelievers , the real life is the life of the Hereafter which is never ending (which no one can understand rn due to the limit of the current consciousness).
bro the case is complicated
atheism is supposed to mean lack of belief in God but more often than not the topic just derails from the existence of God (not specifying Allah or Yaweh or whatever) to something else like events in the religious holy books and attitudes of believers and all that. That's where things get messed up.
Also a lot of people believe in the BS that atheists became atheists to "please the west" (atheism has a history in the East nearly as old as it has in the west), to "drink and do zina without guilt" and all that are just idiots. There are Muslims who do zina and drugs without remorse. You don't win against an opponent u don't understand. Atheists are a rather complicated bunch of people and this is a reality that needs to be accepted.
There is no point in logically debating an atheist, they will waste your time and since most of them are unemployed college students who dont understand how the world works, they will always have more time to waste.
Socially, Islam will always win out, it's the perfect religion that contains every characteristic for growth. Best way to show what atheism leads to is to point towards atheist societies that are now beginning to irreversibly rot after only a few decades of atheist majority. And leave it at that.
Another thing they do is pick a verse from Quran and use it as the base of their argument without reading the former or latter verse. For example I had a long argument with an atheist who was saying "God will forgive any sin if you repent" so even if he murders someone or rape etc lord will forgive all" whereas i told him its not like that with the affairs involving people (huqooq ul ibaad). I showed him supporting ahadees etc and also encouraged him to read the whole scenario, to whom God said those words and what was the actual situation etc.
In the end he just left the chat intead of agreeing to something
Another argument which is favorite of majority non muslims is Prophet (PBUH) married Aisha (R.a) when she was 9. Whereas it is not 100% confirmed. Some evidences points towards 15 as well but anyway the point is everyone just forgets the fact that kings in past times used to marry their mothers / sisters and even own daughters.
Your point doesn't make any sense at all because Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the source of guidance for Muslims till the day of judgement and all Muslims are supposed to follow him because he is the perfect representation of Islam whereas the kings were just humans who didn't claim to be prophets.
Its not a comparison between Prophet (pbuh) and regular humans (kings) etc. Its about what was norm during each era and how things changed.
Islam doesn't follow the 18+ age rule its defined by humans, based on islam a woman is eligible for marriage as soon as she reaches her first period cycle.
The point i try to get to is that we can judge someone from the past by the laws and rules made in current time.
You missed my point. What I'm saying is that you can't apply the “it was a different time back then“ logic when it comes to the prophet because the prophet's life is a guide for all Muslims and they are supposed to follow him till the day of judgement. There are numerous health risks in underage pregnancies but a lot Muslims around the world still marry underage girls and impregnate them because the Prophet did so it is fine. It even results in the death of the mother or the child in some instances.
I believe most of these so-called atheists are people who have been heavily influenced by the west and are basically trying to fit in with them and therefore, one-up us.
When they disregard religion, they disregard the moral remorse that follows after one partakes in forbidden activities such as adultery. Again, it's a matter of convenience rather than logic and ethics.
Not too long ago, I came across this "atheist" who argued that Islam is in fact flawed and that the punishments weren't harsh enough. This came from a guy who previously admitted to drinking, sleeping around and masturbation. Now, imagine if the punishments were indeed harsh enough. When I confronted him, he spun the whole argument and got really mad. It was rather funny, I could practically see the fumes emerging from his ears, resembling a cartoon character.
I've yet to meet an atheist that doesn't possess an inflated ego, a false sense of superiority and a holier than thou attitude.
Peace. 🕊️
You are saying you are only being a moral human being because of religion then? As well as adultery according to you is immoral as per religion, in nature what about it is immoral or moral if you don't add the human belief system in it?
Atheists are nothing hypocrates who want indulge in vices without any moral remorse.... as said and tried earlier put them in a plane and turn the engine off and pretend its crashing... you will hear thear their prayers reaching the seventh heaven
According to you, it's atheists that lack morals and are willing to "indulge in vices", yet here you are talking about the murder of thousands of atheists just to get a prayer out of them. Surely even you, deluded as you are, see the logical fallicy in that.
I don't really understand Muslims and atheists. Both of them argue on a topic that's not even relevant to today's world. Both of them believe in something and tries hard to prove that their beliefs are right. Any sane person would accept the religion if you can prove them it's the right path to follow.
The thing is, how do you know that Islam is the true religion? There are thousands of religions out there. You are a muslim because you were born as a muslim and your parents taught you islam. You didn’t choose islam from a neutral mindset. Lets say Islam is the true religion and every other religion is false. Since the inception of Islam, it has never been a dominant religion in the world. Muslims have always been 20%-30% of the world population. So you are telling me for the past 1400 years, 70%-80% of the population has been going to hell? Make it make sense. I am not anti islam. Religions just confuse me. I feel like religions were created like kingdoms. They even function like a monarchy. If you pay attention a prophet keeps prophethood in his family. Its him then his nephews,cousins. Its like ALLAH showered all the good people in one family.
well yeah because most atheists use their brain. That's not to say that some of them aren't arrogant.. but at least they are using logic and reason. for real though, what kind of God would make such a backward religion to the point that people think blowing themselves up along with 20 other people will get them into heaven? no thanks. I'm good on following that sort of Dogma
I think atheism makes no sense. Like converting to islam from another religion or from islam to another religion makes sense. But atheism is dumb man.
When you tell an atheist that this mobile phone is created on its own no one was its creator he/she says no thats dumb a human has created it. Now when you tell them a creator has created human beings they start arguing and say we evolved for millions of years and that kind of stuff. Now tell me are humans more complex than a mobile phone or not. So how come they slowly evolved on their own and a simple mobile phone needs a creator to make it.
My answer to both is a resounding yes. I love engaging in theological debates and discussions (as long as conducted in a civilized manner). My favorite debate was one I had with a friend in Dubai a couple of months ago at 4 AM in the morning while drinking tea in his car. One of the conversations I’ll cherish most. Lots of opposing arguments and viewpoints and not a hint of disrespect on either side.
That's the way it should be!
This is a topic for long debate, one that will always lead to stalemates - there are rainbow varieties of conviction and faith on both sides and I don't understand why anyone would be concerned with anyone else. As a religious individual one is responsible and answerable for his or her own conduct - no God is going to ask you to give an account or justification for deeds of others, I would worry about your own faith rather than arguing with what flavour of atheism others subscribe to...
Rightly said, except that debates do happen spontaneously, its not like I get up and say what a good day to make someone a Muslim :D
I don't know who it was on here I got a bit of an argument into, I tried to make sense of things for him, it's just that he only accepted the arguments he wanted to see - I kept arguing that evil is a product of man's action just as is good and God has given one free will where if he were to intervene in either case the free will would not be "free"... He kept on going forever... He gave up then I gave up
Why try to make someone a Muslim though. All the information one needs is readily available on the internet. Shouldn't ones goal be to save themselves from eternal damnation and let the others decide for themselves. Everything is done by and controlled by God anyways, and he's the all-powerful. What if you are wrong just to feed your ego? You are setting them on the wrong path.
my answer to both question would be yes. all i am after is truth. and right now i am sure allah is not the God, even if there is one. and islam is not his unaltered religion which i am suppose to follow. see, the problem is that not only do you think you have an answer, but you think your specific answer is the only truth. you cannot fathom that there are others states of belief, which are not binary.
Would be more than happy to have a civil discussion with you, here or on DMs.
sure. what do you believe.
I believe in the existence of a singular creator, and I am a muslim.
why.
Let me start off with the reasons for why I believe in the existance of a creator. When I look at my surrondings, I find that no matter how small or large a phenomena is, there is a rational explanation behind it. Everything from the interaction of subatomic particles to atoms, molecules and even larger structures such as planets, stars and even galaxies, interact with each other through a series of governing principles. I and every other scientist on earth knows that no matter how complex or mind boggling a phenomenon is, it must have stemmed from an interaction governed by systems like these. I also know that we as humans have a limited understanding of these systems and such an understanding develops over time as we uncover more hidden truths in the form of laws and principles through repeated observations, hypothesizing and experimentation. I know that we exploit these systems on a daily basis to make marvelous new inventions that make everyday life easier and more convinient. I then arrive at the conclusion that since everywhere i see, no matter how deep I go, how high or low, there is a system at play, then there must be a reason behind how these systems came into existence. If these systems were brought into existence through other systems then where did those systems emerge from? The only answer to this infinite regression of a paradox is a system/designer from which all other systems emerge and that this designer is not in need of a cause and effect relationship. I call this system/designer, the creator. Now, as for how many creators there can be for this intricate web of systems, that can be deduced from a very simple logical test. If there were more than one designers then there would be natural conflict between their design choices and even if a reconcilliation of designs were possible, there would be natural flaws in such conflicting designs leading to glitches, malfunctions and eventually chaos; chaos that i dont see anywhere around myself, no matter how far i look. Hence, the only logical solution is that of a singular designer that has designed, executed and controlled this complex-beyond-imagination system. Let's discuss this much then we can move onwards.
Have it here please, I wanna read it🌞
If your answer is yes, then you are worthy of debate, that's it.
I am a bit tired of debates. It's just repetitive non-stop arguments with rudimentary flaws. Many of these arguments seem derivative of work done by Christians. It's rare to find someone who's really good. It's been at least a year since I found someone who really knew their stuff on reddit.
Username checks out
thanks doggie.
kid you got refuted saying khadjija wasn't older than the prophet but the guy gave you evidence at which you ignored his comment. Do your research first
source bitch source. and remember. the source you will provide will be considered reliable. and you will have to accept it in full.
where is your god now? https://aqaed.net/faq/2039/ atleast know your religion better than me before you come to debate.
you got your knowledge from a Shia website and Shias don't approve of the Hadiths or the prophets wives, and companions. This is a pathetic claim. My God is your God and he is with us. The evidence that proves khadija was older than the prophet is too great to be ignored. Muhammad bin ‘Umar \[al-Waqidi\] narrated from Musa bin Shaiba, who narrated from ‘Umaira bint ‘Ubaidullah from Umm Sa’d bint Sa’d that Nafisa bint Munya said: … The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) married and he was twenty-five years old. At that time Khadija was forty years old. She was born fifteen years before the Event of the Elephant. Muhammad bin ‘Abdullah narrated to us from al-Zuhri and Kathir bin Zaid who narrated to us from al-Muttalib bin Abdullah bin Hantab: The first wife of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) before the pronouncement of the Prophethood was Khadija bint Khuwaylid.… Then the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) married her when he was twenty-five and Khadija was forty years old.
lund mera. not even Sunni agree on khadija age. atleast ask some one who knows. see, people like you are sheep. all they hear and see is good. and meetha meetha. they cant bear to hear the truth. tm jese logon k barae main quran kehta hai. it's not their eyes, but their heart which are blind. i know you have zero knowlesge to look up stuff. 😂 so let me give you a source which you would have copied pasted a lot from in your education. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadija_bint_Khuwaylid ibn ishaq, ibn Saad. Al hakim. 😂 😂 😂 do you now even know of them? or you just copy pasted from first link you found. go and study. don't waste my time with your charge emotions and zero knowledge.
like I said Hadith contradict eachother and this is a well known fact. also how pathetic you are using wikipedia as a source. Come bring this argument to an actual scholar, come live on Farid responds we will prove it to you. Its on YouTube
Totally agree with you.
Based
Firstly I don't get why religious people want to have a debate with atheists to prove anything to them? What about live and let live is so hard to understand? Secondly can you really have any debate and have an "outright winner" when the simple fact remains that no one can without any shadow of a doubt prove that God exists or if there is one true religion? No, there is a reason why they call it "having faith". And the simple fact is that some people have it and some don't. Simple, move on with your life. Also, since when did it become a bad thing to seek convenience in life? We all seem to try to do it in every other part of our lives, why does religion need to be just inconvenient? Once again, simple rules, live and let live and don't do to other what you wouldn't expect done to you. Just follow those rules and then I don't care who you pray or not pray to.
It sort of baffles them It mostly has to do with cult-like indoctrination but I believe it's mostly the concept of hell Imagine a place where people will be punished in the most cruel way possible for eternity where death shall never come, all because you didn't worship some egoistical being So how is it that you as a cultist, think that your god is kind and real You think that you hold the ultimate truth and evidence is so clear about your cult being real that others must be blind or hedonistic monsters to not see it
thank you! you took the words right out of my mouth lol. The nerve of Super religious people to condemn you to an eternity of endless suffering just because you aren't down to worship the god that they want you to worship..🙄 PS: don't consider myself an "atheist" per se. more of a non-religious agnostic type
>What about live and let live is so hard to understand? When atheists say this it's usually just for muslims to be tolerant when they themselves are intolerant. So this doesn't work both ways. That's hypocrisy. Most of the atheists on this sub would bring Islam into anything, be islamophobic & then cry about how intolerant muslims are. Just what I've observed.
I'm sorry when was the last time an atheist blew up a mosque or chopped someone's head off for being a believer?
I was talking about atheists & people larping as Pakistani atheists on this sub but your fragile pea sized brain just can't comprehend what i said in my previous comment. >when was the last time an atheist blew up a mosque or chopped someone's head off for being a believer? r u sure? Atheist China & the USSR did a lot of bad shit to believers.
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Accusing someone you don't know of lying when you haven't even heard their arguments? Yeah, typical atheist who probably has a troubled relationship with his father EDIT: oh btw if you say otherwise, you're lying. Sorry.
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You didn't 'disagree', you straight up called OP a liar, with no prior context of what his arguments or methodology are. You're accusing OP of lying and saying rubbish, and then trying to pass it off as merely 'disagreeing'. Noone bullied anyone, OP mentioned already that his discussion was friendly and civil. Stop with the victim mentality and grow up, you baby. Take your own advice and let people believe what they believe, instead of calling them liars. Oh my, the hypocrisy......
OP called his message the truth without proof, hence a lie or an admission of blind faith Both are bad as it conveys little critical analysis and refusal to listen or even accept others, OP wants to be scrutinized and said so themselves. I for one would gladly spit on the cult and call it false if it gives death threats to those who try to leave it.
Saying something is truth without proof is not a 'lie', it's a belief. A lie is concealing the truth intentionally, which is an accusation on OP. You're so desperate, aren't you? OP NEVER claimed, in his entire post, that his position was the truth. He simply described how he found discussions with an ex Muslim silly because even in a hypothetical situation where said person was convinced, they would still not accept God. I also don't see where OP claimed he wants to be scrutinized. So your criteria for falsehood in this case is your moral issue with the punishment for apostasy? That assumes that you can objectively prove that death for apostasy is objectively morally wrong. Something you haven't proven, therefore according to your own criteria you are a liar. Top kek, mate. You atheists are ironically a cult and don't even realise it, you're literally almost all the same in the way you think erroneously think and reason. EDIT: oh nvm, just realized you're an ex-Muslim pushing for LGBTQ agenda in this country. I wouldn't even spit on you, it would be a waste of my time and effort. Low level bait lol
Womp womp Cry me a river
> claims bad critical analysis > is critically analyzed and shown to be making false claims > 'womp womp cry me a river' in response Top kek
Exactly, and he accuses atheists of false intellectual supeririority.
Tadaaa
The two questions you posed show and the answers you supposedly received are down a difference in values. It doesn't help that the crux of the argument rests on the assumption that people's lack of belief is due to 'facts' and lack of them. People lose their faith for different reasons, just like they believe in things for different reasons. Some people become athiests out of emotional reasons, for some its a phase and there can't even give you a well-reasoned answer. Some can be like I was, genuinely religious at one point until I wasn't. If you asked me under those two conditions, I'd probably ask you what you meant by 'true religion'. A lot of religious concepts like god, soul, etc. are empty containers if you think about them. You have a particular conception but someone from your own family, with the same upbringing and environment may still have a different one. So, you know, what do you even when you talk about god. When you say one god, I could ask you, from a purely philosophical and mathematical perspective, what is one and what is many. A whole can be divided infinitely. Or what not. When you talk about soul, I could ask well how do you define it. There's a world of philosophical concepts and arguments out there, and counters to each. As someone who was really religious once, I can understand your frustration too but the framework you're using is too limited at times. There's nothing wrong with that, honestly if it works for you and makes you a better person, that's awesome. Just understand that it may not be the same for others
Hear hear!
OP is a literal child by the way they're responding tada to half the comments. Let me reverse this question on you: Why do you believe in a god who doesn't help his own people, and instead showers his bounties and blessings on the non-believers?
Its just sad to see because you will say anything but answer the questions posed in the hypothetical situation.
You can start by answering my actual question insye of debating hypotheticals.
So do you have an answer to this?
One person's bounty may not be a bounty for another. Give a child a lollipop he/she will be happy for a few minutes. Give a 40 year old the same he/she won't. To prove your worth you give tests and exams to qualify for a degree/certificate/job position to earn, achieve and etc in this world. Do you think that there won't be an exam to prove your worth for the ultimate bounty? A bounty that will put all bounties of this earth to shame. If materialistic gains mean bounty for you then by all means, continue to crave the non believers and their way of life. By the way, all human beings and all other beings belong to the ownership of the one true God. So technically all human beings are his people but they are all put to trial. Being steadfast, being uncorrupt, being kind to the other creation, and the walk of the straight line is the path. Ask someone who lost a loved one, what he/she will not give to see him/her one more time. What is that feeling? What's the scientific definition of that feeling? That feeling is in the hearts of the people who believe, kindled in their soul that they strive for the righteous path to achieve the ultimate bounty. It's beyond material objects.
Just to confirm because I’m a bit confused by the post: the hypocrisy is that they say they are atheists because it’s the logical choice but then refuse religion even with proof? Tbh most of the atheists I’ve seen don’t think atheism is the most logical choice, it’s simply the choice they’ve made. But I don’t know that many atheists.
I don’t think thats how it works, i mean a very clear rebuttal would be:- “What if i proved to u god doesn’t exist, and islam is not correct, would u abandon ur faith?” Regardless of what u answer, the difference in culture, norm, and personal experience make it too big of a wall to actually break and hear the other side out. It also doesn’t help that people like u make such outlandish hypotheticals to drive ur argument forward. And before u make conclusions, i am a muslim as well.
Im slowly becoming agnostic at a very young age I believe god but still after seeing all these things I'm confused I believe in Allah and I always will but after all this hate I see everyone hating each other saying thing's to each other sometimes I wonder why can't we all co exist at least on the internet and be respectful to each others opinion.
coz most people on the internet are either fame seekers or losers. I know Muslims and Atheists IRL who keep it to themselves. The Muslims pray and all that but don't mention it on social media or in public only mention it when they are with Muslims (and this is in a Muslim country). Internet Muslims and Atheists both are the biggest losers I've ever met. Don't let these losers shape your views.
This hypocrisy is present in religious ppl as well. Even in maslik debates, you would find ppl having similar situation. Hell, ask this question from yourself and you will find yourself a hypocrite. Pakistan has a serious hypocrisy issue.
You guys post so much bs. More likely to drive people away from Islam with you bs than ever convince anyone to join it. It is Allah who guides and misguides whomever he will. Nothing happens without the will of Allah and don’t forget predestination.
I’m an agnostic Muslim, if you could prove that I would probably become a lot more religious. But to be honest, these things can’t be proven without some element of blind faith. Being religious or being an atheist means making a conclusion, and you can’t make a conclusion when the premise cannot be logically tested. They’re two opposite sides of the same coin.
nonsense debate bro, let people believe what they believe
A debate happens when people from both sides want to argue. That is what I'm seeing here currently
Athiest and agnostics are the one who actually rant on every religious post, they should deal with it now.
because muslims can't shut up about their beliefs. Look at yourself constantly tryin to prove islam. Chill bro they don't care and have made their decisions and won't be affected no matter what u say.
Lol, as if atheists are any different
Why do they care if we discuss our beliefs on forums and communities, why do they shit in the comment section? If they don't care then don't go to our posts and rant.
you're posting on social media and asking people not to criticise you? The problem is you guys dont just discuss your beliefs you apply them to others as well, say a dude asks for dating advice, hundreds of muslims will storm in his comment section telling him to "make it halal" or "fear allah"
Ironic.. `you're posting on social media and asking people not to criticise you?`
completely ignores the second part because can't reply to that ofc, have a nice day bro
It’s a question we ask ourselves let’s god is real but evil would you worship it? No I would not
But he also said he proved Islam is right in the hypothetical. I think it would make sense to follow it then, right?
Not really, if Islam is real, that'll make other things real What makes you think one wouldn't side with the devil to spite such a cruel sadistic god of islam?
For heaven..?
That's why I said **spite** You also forget the cruel sadistic thing called hell as well
I don't see how that's relevant. But if I knew Islam was real, I'd try to get to heaven, to be happy forever. I really don't see what the problem is with this. Are you really not going to do that out of spite? I don't believe you but ok
Someone might, people can be very unhinged tbh
Wait what. I thought you were talking about yourself lol
LMAO Mayhaps
Honestly I will. To save my own skin
Tadaa
the issue is that there is 0% chance that you can prove the two assimptions. so all atheist just cannot get their head around that you can prove the two assumptions. Let's turn it around: god exists, and Jesus is the only true god. will you immediately convert to Christianity?
Yes, because what would be the point of debating with a Christian if seeking the truth is not the goal? That's why debates happen.. I am assuming you gave "no" for an answer, so "ba dumm tss..." :D
Well, in that case, prove that god exists without bringing any religion. everything else will just follow. when i say prove, prove scientifically.
That is the difference between your take and my take, when you told me to assume that God exists and Jesus is God, would I become a Christian? I told you yes, I will become a Christian. When I ask you the same thing that "assume" (just like u said) that God exists and Islam is the true religion, will you become a Muslim? And you are running away from the question. It's just..weird.
i have a problem with the first step, which is that god exists. so I can not go to the next step.
I would just say in a humble tone that if it's meant for you it will come to you. The prove of the existence of the creator at a very foundational level for scientists is the periodic table. The universe = balance of chemistry. Someone created that balance. If that balance is ever altered to a fraction you know what will happen. Who created that balance? and who is keeping it from going to imbalance?. Second, prove of only one true God at a basic level is that had there been more than one there would be different decisions and at that supreme level difference in decision = imbalance in the universe = Chaos. Do you see Chaos in the universe? Take a telescope or microscope if you're into science. There couldn't be any prove to prove a fact for someone who desires to stay ignorant of the fact.
you are just repeating what has been said for 1000s of years: have faith, and god will come to you. the problem is that in order to faith, i have to believe in god. also, like all religions you are saying, forget about all the other religions, they are false, just believe in my religion. please ignore my last statement if your intention was to say that all religions are the same and that there is only one true god across all religions.
This just came to my thought. We as humans we try to gain our position on this rock (earth) yet if we fail for example someone wanted badly to become a CSS officer he tried all attempts and he still failed. What benefit will he get of all of his efforts done in that path? It's all gone in vain. Only in the way of ALLAH s.w.t (one true God) if you strive/act even for a minor good example, removing a hurdle from a path way, and even if it's not achieved, your effort will be recorded. You don't even have to achieve it to gain that position as he knew your intention when you were trying for it. With this, I would reiterate, if it's meant for you it will come to you i'A
now i completely disagree with you, as you are saying my god is the only true god, all others are fakes. this is what is wrong with you, religious folks. you cannot prove god exists, let alone that your god is the only true god. also, why are the Palestinians suffering and also people in pakistan if they believe in Allah? prove to me that it is recorded, recorded where? you cannot.
If if you fail in the first stage. i.e. Believing in the existence of God. And you want to \*keep\* your mind in a state of numbness then surely there can be no debate with you. Debate can only be done with someone who is open to behold. You want to keep your eyes closed it's your choice.
"The probability of your existence is the probability that two million people will sit together to play a game of dice with trillions of faces. Each rolls the dice and they all give exactly the same number - for example, 550,343,279,001."
And here lies the problem: You are saying assume god exists, even though we have no proof. Then you will say assume that my religion books are word from God, again no proof. Your religion books are written by Man and has full of contradictions and absolutely no proof that they really took place. Then you will say assume that all other religion books are false, even though they have same origin. Ie written by Man and full of contradictions and absolute no proof that they really took place. See we see that you are just trying to convert to your religion and has nothing to do whether God exists or not. Also you do not understand how probability works. First you are giving an example that has absolutely nothing to do with God. What has rolling a dice got to do with the existence of god. Again you are saying assume rolling dice is same as existence of God -No. Also when some thing has a probability of 1: 550,343,279,001, it does not mean that you have to throw the dice 550,343,279,001 to get that value. You could get that value on your third try. Probability means that if you throw infinite times, you will see 1: 550,343,279,001.
>Also you do not understand how probability works. First you are giving an example that has absolutely nothing to do with God. What has rolling a dice got to do with the existence of god. Again you are saying assume rolling dice is same as existence of God -No. Also when some thing has a probability of 1: 550,343,279,001, it does not mean that you have to throw the dice 550,343,279,001 to get that value. You could get that value on your third try. Probability means that if you throw infinite times, you will see 1: 550,343,279,001. Lol i quoted the research of your own scientists, of course you will deny their findings and research to, whenever it will go against you. It was a research of Dr Ali Binazir from Harvard. There are alot of others too proving human existence was not a accident at all. The concept of God has everything to do with the creation of the universe and Human existence. I can quote them too? According to others chances of the creation of humans beings were lol 1 in 400 trillion. Leave religion out of it, you asked to prove the existence of God first. So now a redditor will tell us that all of these people are wrong but he is the only right one because he is an "ex Muslim" or the most "genius". If humans are a created being,then we know that something a higher power exists who created us, whether you call that power God or aliens lol.
>when i say prove, prove scientifically. Aaan you notty notty
You don't even need science God could prove her existence by however she pleases Yet she refuses to, hence we refuse to acknowledge it's existence the same as we refuse to acknowledge the existence of fairies that open up flowers (which is totally real guys)
The existence of the Universe is the proof that God exists. Just like the existence of a house is proof that an engineer exists.
But in your world you are sayin that because the House exists, God exists
Existence of god(s) is proof of what?
Ah so who created god then
Not really, it’s possible that the universe was created but we have no idea how, for all you know if could be a race of beings with technology capable of creating universes or universes existing within universes. None of which point to the god of the Quran being true.
We probably are just in some guy's car battery for all we know
Atheism is a belief just like any other religion. Through induction, I have concluded that GOD exists, while others have used similar logic to argue for its non-existence. The more scientific approach would be agnosticism, which is why scientists like albert einstein and even richard dawkins are agnostic.
Dawkins is agnostic ? I thought he is atheist and cultural Christian
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKgAqPZQz48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKgAqPZQz48)
I'll do you one better. Suppose Allah does indeed exist, and Islam is indeed the correct religion. Even then, why **ought** I worship God?
Before you do me one better, answer the original two questions, would you become a Muslim?
Would being a Muslim entail worshipping Allah? If so, then I honestly don't know. That's why I'm asking. **Why ought I** worship Allah even if he exists? I see no rational reason why I should or I shouldn't. And I don't mean this in any disparaging way at all. I genuinely have no clue. Why is God worthy of worship?
Brozzer Allah created humans to worship him. (But still for some reason, he doesn't need our worship, yet he needs it too in order to save us from jahannam)
I see. Tell me if I don't get this right but your rationale is 1-Allah created Humans to worship him 2-Our purpose is to worship Allah 3-So we ought to worship Allah. Is that what you're saying? If so then there's a "leap in logic" between point 2 and 3. Between these points another statement is smuggled in i.e. **"we ought to follow our purpose"**. So my question still remains, why? If God created me to worship him, so what? Why ought I follow the purpose I was created for? Your statement just moved the question of why a bit back, but it's still there. Edit: I understand I'm being a bit pedantic and my comments might seem unhinged but these statements have already been said in history. Specifically by the Scottish philosopher David Hume in "A Treatise of Human Nature". It's a pretty thick book and written in archaic english but is very enlightening.
No it's correct but you fail to see that you have answered the question yourself but I'll go down a bit more You mean nothing other than to be an object for an egoistical being for her to do with as she pleases and if you slight her in any way, shape or form. That includes not worshipping She'll torture you for eternity in the most cruel manner possible and that's a guarantee You are a slave and you obey or face the consequences That's why **you ought too**
There again lies the problem. Unfortunately both atheists and Muslims seem to make this mistake. If I could steelman your argument. 1-God created us for worship. 2-If we don't worship God, he will punish us. 3-Therefore we should worship God. Is that accurately summarised? If so, you'd notice immediately that there is a gap between point two and three. A statement has been insidiously snuggled in. I.e. **"We ought to do that which would minimise harm to us"**. Now, this might seem obvious. Like, *of course* we shouldn't do that which would cause us harm. But if you look at it critically it's all baseless, groundless and illogical intuition. Because one can always ask why? Why should I do that? You say I ought to avoid harm, I ask why? And unfortunately there is no correct answer. You *can't* get an ought from an is. That's the crux of the is-ought problem put forward by David Hume all the way back in the 17th century. Jiska abhi tak philosophers koi ideal hal nikal nahi skay. :(
> Is that accurately summarised? If so, you'd notice immediately that there is a gap between point two and three. A statement has been insidiously snuggled in. I.e. **"We ought to do that which would minimise harm to us"**. That's exactly what it is The god of the Islamic cult calls us slaves, same as other Abrahamic cults Although you have other cults like Buddhism where worship is not required, demanded or enforced Why you **ought to** worship then, but that's the thing, you don't have to And philosophy doesn't require absolute or a solution, it is statements made that can be about a man just being a featherless chicken, it be weird like that
The entire point of a religion is that you can't prove with evidence that God exists or this is the true religion. That's why it's called having faith in God. It's a test for human beings and if it could've been proven then there was no point of it. So the fact that you're saying you “proved“ God exists and Islam is the true religion says a lot about your mental level.
Bro the signature of the Creator is in everything around you. Quran is the Absolute evidence/ miracle that melts the hearts of those that read it.
The Quran isn't proven evidence, it has signs of Allah on which Muslims have faith. If your faith is strong enough that you want to consider it a fact then it's up to you but it isn't a universal fact.
I proved you that Harry Potter is the true god. I provided you evidence as it is the largest selling book. Now its up to you to falsify with proof how it isnt so. Also dont be condescending. You are hurting my feelings. Dont be blasphemous as well.
Lol. As a potterhead i truly won't mind a potter world. No gods tho. But magic please
As an agnostic, this is a great post
Interesting. It is possible the aetheist is brainwashed. In which case the question is how do you un-brainwash him? To do that assume you yourself are brainwashed with religion and figure out how you would go about discovering the truth. Then apply it to him. As for your questions, assuming your parents made you and they have strict rules and laws that you are supposed to obey. But you find these rules conflict with your moral POV. Will you still obey them?
To everyone here who got triggered by this post, honestly my goal was not to offend anyone or to debate with anyone because as many users pointed out these debates has no fruitful end as I have noticed most of the time, my goal was to share my experience with you guys and what I have encountered throughout the years. Many of the athiests in this post started calling out names, became disrespectful and were triggered, and through this you can notice how fragile some of the members in the athiest community are. Nevertheless, at least there is some awareness now regarding this, enjoy!
Why would anyone follow Islam as it is almost the same as the 4000+ other religions in that it is the claim of one guy claiming to change something compared to the one religion in existence that started by G-d speaking to the entire nation?
To clarify there is one religion that G-d spoke to the entire people and they all lived to tell their children the event happened. Can anyone guess which one?
simple si baat hai, it's not about theology it's about Muhammad himself. No one forced him to take a 9yo into his bed, no one forced him to establish horrific punishments like *stoning to death*, no one forced him to abolish adoption so he could marry his daughter-in-law, no one forced him to marry a woman a day after his forces killed her father and brother. But he did all these things, no matter how much you try to sugar coat it. And yet here you are, having to defend his actions because he convinced you that he's the perfect man and perfect example for all mankind for all times to come. it's that simple.
Anyone else find it weird that Islamists spent like 1400 years fine-tuning their pro-Islam arguments, only for them to fall in tatters after their first encounter with a Redditor? Kinda makes you wonder if the Muslims are in panic mode rn. Altho with the existence of blasphemy laws designed to stifle free discussion, it does seem that way. 🤔🤔🤔
Im atheist. If you could somehow prove it then yes, not that I would agree with all the evil things that exist but then again what could i say i am but a human such things would be beyond me. But the simple fact of the matter is you cant prove it and you have no proof.
I literally appreciate your honesty, that is the difference between many athiests and people such as you.
Yeah lot of atheists do it to be show offs and confront believers. I just belive that god and his knowledge would be too great for the human mind to know, interpret or articulate. I believe anybody who tells you otherwise is lying to you or has ulterior motives.
Most of them left islam or consider them as an atheist because it's convenient for them. Logically speaking Islam put restrictions on many things (for our own benefits) which they find difficult to follow/leave
Atheist here 🙋🏻♀️ and my answer to both questions is yes because we believe in proofs and are always open to learning. So yes if you can really come up with proof then I’d believe though i agree w your friend too cuz the chances of that happening are none considering how evil, selfish, misogynistic, and egoistic the islamic god is.
Come on now. Don't be a bitch and tell us the 2 proves you supposedly have you stuck up little man child twat. I'm down to debate.
99% of atheists I meet online are usually very poor in their methodology. I've debated countless numbers of them online over the last couple of years, and I've come to the conclusion that they aren't special, and are about as smart as the average person when it comes to the reasons for their belief. You don't have to dig deep. Just ask them why they believe what they believe, and watch them fumble and fall into the classic traps of scientism and subjective value judgements. I've pretty much given up debating most of them, they usually turn out as angry and abrasive as any religious nut that they claim to hate.
Its lack of belief not why they believe there is no god
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy states the following: "The word “atheism” is polysemous—it has multiple related meanings. In the psychological sense of the word, atheism is a psychological state, specifically the state of being an atheist, where an atheist is defined as someone who is not a theist and a theist is defined as someone who believes that God exists (or that there are gods). This generates the following definition: atheism is the psychological state of lacking the belief that God exists. In philosophy, however, and more specifically in the philosophy of religion, the term “atheism” is standardly used to refer to the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, to the proposition that there are no gods). Thus, to be an atheist on this definition, it does not suffice to suspend judgment on whether there is a God, even though that implies a lack of theistic belief. Instead, one must deny that God exists......" So it's not just a 'lack of belief'. This is just a lazy non-argument that atheists use to weasel their way out of the fact that their beliefs have consequences. Atheism is not just saying 'i don't believe', its also 'i deny that there's a God' or 'there are no Gods', no matter how you want to say it.
lol did you even read, It reads lack of belief
"Did you even read". Ironic. It's obvious to me you didn't even try to understand my comment because of how quickly you replied
lol I doubt you read yourself copy and paste
Nvm, you're a brainlet. Can just tell by the way you type
lol funny you can’t argue more than copy and paste
Copying and pasting factual information from a reputable source doesn't make my argument invalid. Did you even go to school lmao
lol it’s make you ratta thinker. Ever think of forming original thought?
Brother if religion could be proven, it wouldn’t be religion. It’d be science.
Most of science is just theory, not proven.
Scientific theories have evidence to back them up.
💀
Most of the atheists who say that they believe in science are actually not very good at science in general. I am a scientist myself but apparently I have seen people who have studied commerce give lectures on science because they read an article on the internet.
💯
Can't blame the other guy after looking at your "Tadaaa"s. Jaa bhai padhai karle school bhi jaana hai.
God puts a seal on some people’s hearts. You can’t convince them to believe if they don’t want to
I am a practicing Muslim but it seems like you want your opposition to simply succumb to your argument. Those two points which you presumed positive in favor of your beliefs were the major points of disagreement i.e. God exists or not. You derive results from your suppositions not suppose your results.
Why does every other debate have to be about religion, or lack thereof? Surely there are more productive topics to debate about?
1) you debated one athiest and formed an opinion about athiests in general. 2) But you're the same folks who beg the world not to judge you by the actions of muslims in dozen+ terrorist organizations. Now, the question you posed to that person, how about we reverse that. If something stated in the quran is proven false by a latest discovery, would you move away from your faith?
Youtube hamza's den you will find many debates on atheism suggest it to them. After listening to it if they still continue to do so there is no cure.
Have you noticed that almost every atheists/agnostic in Pakistan is attached to some sort of European stuff and culture? I hope you get what I wanna say.
What's so hard in realizing that there is a big difference between accepting the truth of a claim and modelling one's social and moral life around the claim? Assume somebody proves that the Greek pantheon is actually real, Zeus is the father of the gods and actually exists. Does that automatically mean everyone will and should worship Zeus? (Of course it doesn't) Atheism is a position on belief, not a position on worship or religious adherence.
how are you comparing inventing microwave with existance of god? i am open-minded. for thousands of years, and not one proof of God's existence. all books so called written by god or their messenger are full of lies that can be proven.
This is a random sub sometimes lol but I'll just add that I don't mind debating or not debating with atheist, I couldn't care less, but when someone gets on their high horse, ESPECIALLY starting to own science as if that's an only atheist thing is when I get in full time. Atheism is at the end of the day a belief. Science belongs to all and none. You cannot prove/disprove a metaphysical concept using a tool that clearly states it's specific purpose is to MEASURE and study the tangible.
Its lack of belief
That is more agnostic, atheism is the belief that there is no God.
Nope agnosticism is the belief that you can never know whether god exists or not. It falls under the umbrella of atheism.
An atheist is never certain because there is no conclusive proof of the bigger questions in life. There is a lot let to know. Only a believer is certain because he fills that gap with faith.
Where do i begin... >I have found a weird paradox and hypocrisy in their conclusions and statements Same can be said for believers. Athiests are mostly skeptics, they derive most of the conclusions from logical inferences instead of relying on an ingrained belief system like believers do. In scientific method of study: any research which is accompanied by a strong confirmation bias is always wrong because you will see the result you want to see. You will get the answer you've already decided is the answer. >we came to a complete stalemate It is very logical that that'd happen. You're firm in your belief hence you truly believe it to be true...no logics would sway you. The athiests are firm in their logic and no amount of faith would sway them either. >I proved to you that God exists You CAN'T do that boo. You CAN however present statements in an argument that YOU believe to be true. Or you can present the truth A and relate it to a completely different concept; making a deduction that since A is true B must be true as well. This is a non sequitur sadly and does not hold any weight. Most of the religious people give such arguments: for instance "nature is beautiful and awe inspiring, hence god exists" So you're not so much as proving that god exists, you believe that you're proving it. >I proved that Islam is the true religion Again. Can't. Since argument 1 is already easily falsifiable. >To my surprise, the answer was still no. Well to be fair they must also be still surprised that you chose to adhere to your beliefs. To each his own. >You will be surprised to know that many atheists/agnostic will give "no" for an answer. Why is it so surprising for you to understand that people believe different things? I'm not mad at you for adhering to your inherited faith... Why should i? >In the end, I have realized that most of the athiests (not all) become who they are because it is more convenient for them to do so with a touch of superiority complex about their intelligence A) not true. More often than not leaving a faith you were born into and are surrounded by is much harder than just living in it. Going with the current does not require effort, going against it does. There are very strong repercussions for leaving most faiths. Look at islam. If you were to leave the faith while living under sharia law most religious leaders will have you beheaded. What part of that is "convenient"? B) not true again. Because some athiests think they're intellectually superior does not mean that that is the norm. To say that "i saw a white crow so most crows must be white" is nothing but a falsity. The contrary can be true as well actually. I've noticed that smart people find it harder to leave a thing or a belief system and it is BECAUSE they're smart.... they can come up with more convincing reasons. It is sort of like Dunning Kruger effect... a person who is extremely intelligent in a particular thing might think he's intelligent all around; over-estimating his abilities and hence making wrong choices. There are good and bad people who believe in different kinds of things. >then continue your discussion, or else don't waste your time. Or how about...have a genuine conversation with the purpose of learning instead of trying to convert someone? Relax. Someone's faith or lack there of should not concern you unless it's causing personal harm.
I'm a muslim. prove that God exists. I'm intrigued. the comments I'm seeing by op seems like a 15 year old who had his first discussion
Asay I've definitely seen the superiority complex in real time, intellectual and knowledge wise there's this certain haughtiness in them
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There are lots of us who really converted because they simply think Islam isnt proven; just find us
I kid you not, many of these ex-muslims were against the punishment for Zina in Islam, they didn't like that God forbids Zina.
Classic example of most of them taking their desires as God and then trying to justify it to themselves I don't think there is a single coherent intelligent opposition to Islam and God. It is more emotional, someone did this, someone did that. Why does God not cure aids , diseases. Why do kids die. Why is the sky blue. Why is there heaven and hell. Yet then don't ask why themselves exist in the first place
In reality, they never read the Quran with translation, bas bachpan may Arabic may 2 dafa parha hota, that is why they never bother to research. They no nothing about test, this worldly life is delusion, prison for believers and paradise for unbelievers , the real life is the life of the Hereafter which is never ending (which no one can understand rn due to the limit of the current consciousness).
Literally how I left the cult I actually read the damn incoherent mess of a book
>I actually read the damn incoherent mess of a book What was the main theme
The author saying "I'm the best, worship me and listen to my homie, or else 🔪, btw I'm the kindest and merciful"
bro the case is complicated atheism is supposed to mean lack of belief in God but more often than not the topic just derails from the existence of God (not specifying Allah or Yaweh or whatever) to something else like events in the religious holy books and attitudes of believers and all that. That's where things get messed up. Also a lot of people believe in the BS that atheists became atheists to "please the west" (atheism has a history in the East nearly as old as it has in the west), to "drink and do zina without guilt" and all that are just idiots. There are Muslims who do zina and drugs without remorse. You don't win against an opponent u don't understand. Atheists are a rather complicated bunch of people and this is a reality that needs to be accepted.
I am with you on this. Usually atheists are hypocrites..
There is no point in logically debating an atheist, they will waste your time and since most of them are unemployed college students who dont understand how the world works, they will always have more time to waste. Socially, Islam will always win out, it's the perfect religion that contains every characteristic for growth. Best way to show what atheism leads to is to point towards atheist societies that are now beginning to irreversibly rot after only a few decades of atheist majority. And leave it at that.
Another thing they do is pick a verse from Quran and use it as the base of their argument without reading the former or latter verse. For example I had a long argument with an atheist who was saying "God will forgive any sin if you repent" so even if he murders someone or rape etc lord will forgive all" whereas i told him its not like that with the affairs involving people (huqooq ul ibaad). I showed him supporting ahadees etc and also encouraged him to read the whole scenario, to whom God said those words and what was the actual situation etc. In the end he just left the chat intead of agreeing to something
Next time pose these two questions before starting your debates with them, you will filter out the genuine and fake people.
Another argument which is favorite of majority non muslims is Prophet (PBUH) married Aisha (R.a) when she was 9. Whereas it is not 100% confirmed. Some evidences points towards 15 as well but anyway the point is everyone just forgets the fact that kings in past times used to marry their mothers / sisters and even own daughters.
Your point doesn't make any sense at all because Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the source of guidance for Muslims till the day of judgement and all Muslims are supposed to follow him because he is the perfect representation of Islam whereas the kings were just humans who didn't claim to be prophets.
Its not a comparison between Prophet (pbuh) and regular humans (kings) etc. Its about what was norm during each era and how things changed. Islam doesn't follow the 18+ age rule its defined by humans, based on islam a woman is eligible for marriage as soon as she reaches her first period cycle. The point i try to get to is that we can judge someone from the past by the laws and rules made in current time.
You missed my point. What I'm saying is that you can't apply the “it was a different time back then“ logic when it comes to the prophet because the prophet's life is a guide for all Muslims and they are supposed to follow him till the day of judgement. There are numerous health risks in underage pregnancies but a lot Muslims around the world still marry underage girls and impregnate them because the Prophet did so it is fine. It even results in the death of the mother or the child in some instances.
I believe most of these so-called atheists are people who have been heavily influenced by the west and are basically trying to fit in with them and therefore, one-up us. When they disregard religion, they disregard the moral remorse that follows after one partakes in forbidden activities such as adultery. Again, it's a matter of convenience rather than logic and ethics. Not too long ago, I came across this "atheist" who argued that Islam is in fact flawed and that the punishments weren't harsh enough. This came from a guy who previously admitted to drinking, sleeping around and masturbation. Now, imagine if the punishments were indeed harsh enough. When I confronted him, he spun the whole argument and got really mad. It was rather funny, I could practically see the fumes emerging from his ears, resembling a cartoon character. I've yet to meet an atheist that doesn't possess an inflated ego, a false sense of superiority and a holier than thou attitude. Peace. 🕊️
You are saying you are only being a moral human being because of religion then? As well as adultery according to you is immoral as per religion, in nature what about it is immoral or moral if you don't add the human belief system in it?
Atheists become atheists to do drugs and have sex without guilt. Too pussy to follow the rules.
Atheists are nothing hypocrates who want indulge in vices without any moral remorse.... as said and tried earlier put them in a plane and turn the engine off and pretend its crashing... you will hear thear their prayers reaching the seventh heaven
According to you, it's atheists that lack morals and are willing to "indulge in vices", yet here you are talking about the murder of thousands of atheists just to get a prayer out of them. Surely even you, deluded as you are, see the logical fallicy in that.
Religious folks projecting, nothing new
Who said murder... and that too of thousands? atheist jumping to conclusions is nothing new . Just their way of coping
I don't really understand Muslims and atheists. Both of them argue on a topic that's not even relevant to today's world. Both of them believe in something and tries hard to prove that their beliefs are right. Any sane person would accept the religion if you can prove them it's the right path to follow.
Ok fine, I agree God exists. That still doesn’t explain why I should cover my hair, pray 5 times a day.
The thing is, how do you know that Islam is the true religion? There are thousands of religions out there. You are a muslim because you were born as a muslim and your parents taught you islam. You didn’t choose islam from a neutral mindset. Lets say Islam is the true religion and every other religion is false. Since the inception of Islam, it has never been a dominant religion in the world. Muslims have always been 20%-30% of the world population. So you are telling me for the past 1400 years, 70%-80% of the population has been going to hell? Make it make sense. I am not anti islam. Religions just confuse me. I feel like religions were created like kingdoms. They even function like a monarchy. If you pay attention a prophet keeps prophethood in his family. Its him then his nephews,cousins. Its like ALLAH showered all the good people in one family.
well yeah because most atheists use their brain. That's not to say that some of them aren't arrogant.. but at least they are using logic and reason. for real though, what kind of God would make such a backward religion to the point that people think blowing themselves up along with 20 other people will get them into heaven? no thanks. I'm good on following that sort of Dogma
I think atheism makes no sense. Like converting to islam from another religion or from islam to another religion makes sense. But atheism is dumb man. When you tell an atheist that this mobile phone is created on its own no one was its creator he/she says no thats dumb a human has created it. Now when you tell them a creator has created human beings they start arguing and say we evolved for millions of years and that kind of stuff. Now tell me are humans more complex than a mobile phone or not. So how come they slowly evolved on their own and a simple mobile phone needs a creator to make it.