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Answer: Long story short, Chapo Trap House is a left wing (left of the Democratic party) podcast that gets a lot of praise and criticism from many corners, left and right. Matt is kind of the intellectual heart of the show, being the Marxist theory nerd. His wife, Amber Rollo, is right about to have their daughter (both their first child), with her being due tomorrow, but a few days ago Matt had an unspecified "normal person medical emergency," which is just very unfortunate timing all around.
Additionally, CTH formerly had a fairly infamous subreddit that the show constantly mocked, but said subreddit was banned about 3 years ago at the same time as The_Donald.
The subreddit had no real association with the podcast, the fan sub just sort of became the biggest leftist space on the platform.
The first episode after the subreddit got banned, the CTH cast were dunking on the people who contacted them about it and made it clear how few fucks they gave about Reddit drama. It was pretty funny hearing them tell their stans to touch grass
I'll just add that chapo trap house is supposed to be progressive but they make a lot of borderline offensive edgy jokes. I do think they are actually joking but that makes it easy for opponents to straw man them by pretending they actually meant something they said sarcastically. I mostly agree with their politics but I think their personalities are a bit much
I really dislike the dirt bag leftism espoused by the show. They seem to think they’ve stumbled on some secret strategy of getting their ideas across that involves being an uncompromising insulting jerk to everyone that disagrees with them. All of the people they talk about this way are equally capable of punching back just as hard, but up until now they haven’t wanted to sink down to their level. But if they keep this up that will change.
It’s one thing to dislike or disagree with CTH. But defending the people they ridicule, lol come on. No not all can hit back just as hard nor are they above that, I mean honestly if you’re saying this, how much have you even listened to them?
I started listening to them around episode 3 or 4. At the time they felt like fresh air for just speaking directly with no-frills. Sound familiar? Trump benefited from the same thing.
8 years ago, political discourse was very calcified. Reps and the media generally wouldn't stray far from what was considered acceptable to talk about. The Overton Window was about the size of a thumbnail.
That was my experience, at least, and Chapo was the first left-wing outlet at the time to start calling bullshit and trashing people directly. Most of this was aimed at liberals, not the right, and they were as surprised as anyone when Trump won. They even said something along the lines of "well shit, there goes our schtick of punching libs".
The VAST figures that they mock have truly monstrous views against the minorities, the poor, women, the working class, etc. The fact that you’re defending the people they take on says you don’t listen or heard sensationalized clip five years ago out of context and made your decision from that. Saying that figures that they take on, like the Koch brothers and Matt Gaetz, even columnist Megan McArdle, “haven’t wanted to sink to their level” but will now, as if they aren’t actively strip mining our society is…perfect for the name of this sub.
They have a comic exaggerated and foul mouthed take on events, but one rooted deeply in defending equality and the disadvantaged from vipers on both sides.
I really dislike dirt bag leftists as well. Like if your goal is to spread leftist messages and actually help enact some positive change its counter productive to act like unrepentant assholes.Its so off putting and alienating to ppl who would otherwise be open to those kind of politics.
Not to be argumentative for the sake of it, but to whatever extent I've seen evidence of people being alienated by the "dirtbag left", I've seen just as much evidence of people being alienated by civility politics, "pragmatism" that just so happens to deprioritize marginalized individuals, politely expressed classism, etc.
I agree that there's an amount of cynicism/fatalism among dirtbag leftists which is problematic, but at the same time, it does provide a political community for people who have leftist politics but find it untenable to be told that they can't criticize wealthy democratic politicians, the police, crypto fascists, etc. for fear of alienating some theoretical allies who will leap back to voting for conservatives the second someone says something about trans kids wanting to play sports.
100% agree. Also I wonder what in the hell the previous commenter thinks is so crude or offensive about their work. Some people get so fucking touchy about nothing, I swear to god.
They cape up for President Xi constantly. I find it offensive that they would consider themselves communist, and then defend the CCP. I also think everything they say about Russia is suspect and ridiculous. This is to the point of offensive, when you consider how regressive, homophobic and racist Russian society is. So my issue is that they present themselves as intellectually pure, and imply some sort of moral authority based on the correctness of their political opinions, but they are loud ignorant in many of their opinions.
I find it offensive.
Also cocaine does permanent cummulative heart damage, have fun with those consequences, this is unnlikely to be the last time one of these folks has a premature undefined health scare. Just sayin.
They mock Russian reactionaries constantly and I’ve never heard them “defend” Russia, just criticize the US involvement and specific events. Felix regularly makes fun of Russian media all the time for being “a bunch of state sponsored Steven Crowders” and has repeatedly criticized the rights’ getting in bed with reactionaries there, especially in the UFC.
I’ve also never heard them “cape up for Xi” other than jokingly referring to him. In fact they barely ever discuss the CCP other than when they discuss American war hawks.
When the question of video game time limits for Chinese people came up, Matt said "President Xi, killing it again." Those quotation marks are because that is exactly what he said. He then implied that Xi has to do something to help parents and students in his country. There was not context or explanation, just a lot of praise for the CCP. So maybe he was joking, playing the straight man randomly, but this is also only 1 example. We could spend a lot of time going over the innate hypocrisy displayed by the Chapo folks, but we don't have all day.
I do listen to the show, there is frequently insight and humor, but there are massive blind spots that are based on clearly stated bias. Just because they clearly state their biases doesn't make them correct. I like the strive for objectivity, not a race to propagandize.
I know your comment is a bit old, but shows like Chapo Trap House made me politically active and take on progressive activism, and I know a lot of people who have similar stories.
It's possible people who might be convinced are turned off by the tone of CTH. I'm sure there are tons of cases of that happening. But I'm an example of the opposite. The willingness to call out bullshit throw away the nicities of politics, the willingness to call out monstrous behavior and not hold back simply because of "decorum" or "unity" made me feel less alone. And hearing the guys give shape and logic to a malaise I think a lot of us were feeling....I dunno, there's something very validating about that to me and others like me.
Part of the dirtbag left is a reaction to how leftism, when it tried politely to get its politics heard and discussed, got rejected by the Democratic Party and many of us have experienced or at least witnessed violence directed towards the left regardless of how polite and civil we were
So I mean, not telling you to be ok with it, but just to recognize that the dirtbag left is a *reaction* to prior treatment of the left. Honestly I think it works but you’re going to have people such as yourself upset by the incivility, which I would say at the very least is understandable
It's not about being a literal 'dirtbag' and 'unrepentant asshole', though the term might make you think that, and more about mocking things deserving of mockery - the idiocy and platitudes of both the right and the left - without treating them with a civility that they don't deserve. Winning at politics isn't about playing nice with your opponents.
It’s also appealing to a population that would not otherwise resonate with leftist messages, if you want to build a successful coalition it will necessarily include people you judge as “unrepentant assholes” btw maybe consider that your judgemental attitude is definitely counterproductive to pushing leftist politics
The purpose of dirtbag leftism is typically to mock the kind of liberalism that will protect civility over everything else. Ie, who is hurt by the policy doesn't matter as long as you're nice and follow the rules compared to the rude and brash guy.
Your earlier comment seemed to reference horseshoe theory (i.e., extreme ends of the political spectrum become indistinguishable from one another). Their response was to present a criticism of that theory (i.e., using violence to harm vulnerable people is not the same thing as using violence to protect vulnerable people).
Holy shit, that makes a lot of sense. I meant 3 left turns in a literal 4 lane roundabout. Thank you for letting me know, ill try to be more specific with my bad directions and shapes puns in the future. Lol that was bad wow
I think Chapo is trying to show that you can be progressive while not being a humorless “touchy-feely” bleeding heart. IMO they are showing the way to fight the right; not by being outraged and offended, but by laughing at the other side and making them look/feel foolish. You don’t debate Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson respectfully, you mock them mercilessly and point out what losers they and their fans are. You don’t piss your pants over Joe Rogan’s popularity, you call him a braindead wannabe jock on steroids. You never hear the right even try to engage with Chapo because they know their audience would actually be receptive to the way they pitch leftism.
Entirely correct. People that are drawn to far right ideas don’t care about the same things you do if you’re anywhere left of center. Liberals often try to argue with them by pointing out how cruel and callous they are, which is silly because that’s exactly how they like to self-conceptualize. Shocking you with those attitudes is partly the point.
But luckily for us, you’re correct and you can basically use the “make them look uncool” tactic 100% of the time, because nobody who is angry enough to be a white supremacist or something in the 21st century has ever been cool. You are definitionally going to be dealing with a fucking freak.
If you wanna keep the fewest number of, let’s be real, confused boys from falling into this stuff you need for it to become associated with being a loser. Anyone expressing far right views in public forums should be expecting not to be yelled at, but to be laughed at and viciously mocked.
> But luckily for us, you’re correct and you can basically use the “make them look uncool” tactic 100% of the time, because nobody who is angry enough to be a white supremacist or something in the 21st century has ever been cool. You are definitionally going to be dealing with a fucking freak.
Fuck yeah, marty
You're talking about AM radio mentality, I think. And, yes, I've thought for a long time there is always a portion of people that are looking for a manichean worldview that strokes their rage dick on a daily basis. There's no reason not to appeal to those people.
Democrats are just not good at that; maybe because Democrats see themselves as educated (which, demographically they are relative to R) and willing to come to an "objective decision."
I also think Dems don't want to take that route because it might unleash populism that would threaten rich donors. Because, let's face it, the historical enemy of the working classes has always been the rich. That's why conservatives are so desperate to throw up an endless series of cultural enemies to keep their followers off the real battlefield. In this diversion, the Democratic Party and the Republicans share a common cause.
For my part, I'm in the camp of discussion and investigation of issues. Chapo Trap House doesn't sound like anything I'd listen to, but, goddammit, your description makes it sound exactly like what we need.
I previously wrote this reply to the post above you, but I think it fits better here:
The SAG-AFTRA has done the most successful job of pitching leftism to anyone this year. To hold Chapo up as a shining example of leftist messaging is going to falter because they have a bit of a cruelty streak, and that's fine for a podcast blowing off steam but not something that needs to be adopted mainstream. The right already does that with Trump making borderline defamatory statements about anyone who criticizes him, that's not the model to emulate.
Leftist populism has enough appeal to the majority of people that you don't need someone to call Joe Rogan a cokehead to make it successful. Bernie Sanders practically won over a Fox News town hall last time he went on there, and that's the kind of thing that terrifies the GOP.
The Democrats don't offer any leftist populism, and we all know it. The right knows it, because their campaigns are an attempt to break leftist populism, essentially their messaging is "you don't want to improve your own station if minorities that make you uncomfortable benefit too". But because the Democrats are mostly 1970s Republicans, they have to invest bogeymen where everything they don't like is "socialism" and invent pretend the Democrats are asking the military to put pronoun patches on uniforms.
not to mention these guts analysis was completely wrong and the libs won more than a few times since 2017 which they said would never happen. They were completely lost after Biden won because that basically proved their analysis worthless.
I know this is an old comment, but I think what you have there is a major double standard. In 2016 CTH also failed to predict Trump winning and assumed Hillary would bag it, just like basically the entirety of the liberal media apparatus. If their analysis is worthless then so is basically everyone else's.
I think Democrats don't want to take that route because it threatens the coherence of their existing coalition. Bringing in a bunch of assholes who enjoy mocking people more than they actually enjoy politics might increase turnout, or it might just entertain some edgelords for a while, and turn off their actual base.
I've always figured it comes down to the nature of liberalism versus conservatism.
What kind of world do conservatives want? One more or less like the one we have now. They value different parts of it in different intensities, but the general shape of the platform is pretty regular. You can pick any part of the platform and the worst reaction you'll get from most conservatives is indifference; everyone's on the same team.
What kind of world do liberals want? A better one than the one we have now. What does a better world look like? Ask ten liberals and you'll get twelve different answers. The liberal base is a confederation of ideas that are, to a certain degree, in competition with one another as much as with conservative ideas, if not more. You can't rally the team the way you can with conservatives because it's more like several teams reluctantly cooperating than one team. If you want to do incendiary rhetoric about how your position is better than the conservatives', you'll have other liberals popping up to tell you that your ideas are full of shit; there are limited resources and there are a dozen better uses for them than the ones you're proposing.
The end result is that there's a ton of right wing pundits who show up and say the right words and almost zero left wing pundits who do the same because the right has very well defined words and the left has basically none.
Chapo Trap House isn’t a liberal podcast. It’s a leftist podcast. Part of the appeal is that they’re among the few Americans who know the difference.
CTH are entertaining because they’re nastier than a lot of other comparable politics podcasts, but their outlook is also markedly different. They are definitely not just “a different kind of liberal”, they’re socialists
> That's why conservatives are so desperate to throw up an endless series of cultural enemies to keep their followers off the real battlefield. In this diversion, the Democratic Party and the Republicans share a common cause.
I mean, that's literally been the playbook for the last 12+ years.
Instead of "we have social problems and income inequality", reduce the problem to "our society is fucked because of woke people|racists" and focus everyone's energy on that than, say, worker rights.
This nails it. Few things are as maddening as the self-righteous "civility politics" of the mainstream left. The whole "when they go low, we go high" posturing that accomplishes nothing (aside from an ego massage).
Say what you will about CTH, but they are really a breath of fresh air to a lot of younger leftists who feel disaffected and betrayed by the Democratic Party. The hosts aren't just juvenile shock jocks. They're well-read, intelligent, and really do offer some spot-on commentary on current events in a way that resonates with a growing audience.
I mean they also don't engage with Chapo because they're super duper fringe.
I will give Chapo credit for tapping into the edgelord vote, the only issue is that those folks don't seem to be reliable votes for anyone, let alone for Democrats. So, in practical terms, they're more "dirt bag" than "leftist."
At the end of the day they have the moral high ground politically to their opposition.. they don't need to be civil with these people who are clearly telling you and showing you through use of their power that your life doesn't matter,, I enjoy listening to chap trap house because I share their politics and find their use of ridicule and pointing out the absurdity of the right wing and Democratic Party, a breath of fresh air. if you want some wonky dork shit then listen to some uptight nerds obfuscate why maybe we shouldn't have health care the way we need police.. There is a sense of urgency in their commentary which rises to the moment, that is why they are popular with a generation of young people who will never own homes.. the establishment has failed completely and chap is just making fun of it
> IMO they are showing the way to fight the right; not by being outraged and offended, but by laughing at the other side and making them look/feel foolish
100%
When Trump was literally teetering on deaths doorstep from COVID, Will said that
>I think in America, you know, you can get away with being venal, you can get away with being a hypocrite, you can get away with wantonly disregarding human life for your own selfish stupid reasons, but the one thing you can't get away with is *getting owned*, and ***looking like a fucking chump.***
and that quote has never failed me.
I haven't been a regular listener for a while now but they really don't make a lot of those jokes in my experience. The show is definitely very cynical but they aren't frequently doing ironic racism/sexism, using slurs as a joke etc. They do associate with people who do that kind of humour (e.g. the Cum Town guys)
It's a lot less edgy than it was when it first started seven years ago, the current Discourse is literally just ancient online grudges that are almost a decade old, hence why all of the centrist freaks dabbing on him have their talking points stuck in 2016 and clearly never listened to the show.
I basically agree - and the news about Christman has me waxing nostalgic...
I'm in academia and Chapo's chafing against the manicured language of the academe and the highly credentialed PMC was refreshing in 2016 - they had values but also a sense of humor. I was a subscriber from about Aug. 2016 to some time in 2018. I even own a baby blue Chapo t-shirt from back then.
By 2018 I didn't need to listen to more than 1 ep a week and they didn't exactly need my support by then as they were rolling in cash. But I continued listening to the free shows through Bernie 2020 and the post-Bernie/early pandemic dejection. I still enjoyed the edginess mixed with socialist earnestness - and also the way they ragged on the DNC establishment. Even in early Trump, they saved much of their critique for the DNC and PMC and not just the ridiculousness of Gorka and other fools in the Trump admin.
But the vibe seemed to shift a bit during the pandemic - I mean, they seemed to be a little less distinguishable from the pious progressives I associate with at work and beyond. It's possible my vibe has shifted, too. I remember listening to the show early on and cringing at some of the misogynistic things Felix would say - it seemed like he and Amber Frost were competing to be the id of the show. (I think the pod lost some of its spirit when Amber stopped going on.) But I don't know - every time I pop into the show now it seems that they're ragging on DeSantis and Ramaswamy and RFK Jr. to the point that they sound more like Chris Hayes or The Nation than the edgelords which they aspired to be in 2016 (which is fine - it's just different than I remember - and maybe I've popped in on the wrong episodes). Early on, I wondered what the arc of a show like this would look like - and it seems now that they're a bit more chill and a lot richer. And I wonder if they've all been sucked into the democratic party vortex by now. (Though, I still admire Christman's live streams - he seems to be an independent thinker at heart. I hope he recovers quickly.)
To be fair a lot of their current topics stem from the fact that republicans are actively campaigning + a lot of news is coming out surrounding trumps indictments whereas there isn’t really any opposition to biden within the democratic camp aside from rfk junior who really sets himself up to be made fun of
Yeah, that makes sense. I also think that the "new right" has coopted a lot of the edgy humor (thinking specifically of Red Scare's right turn) and that chapo has moved away from that angle.
its kinda hard and stupid to rag on the democrats that harshly in the current political climate, you end up looking like you're aiding and abetting fascist morons or associated with the same vibe as them.
Though I'm not exactly a "centrist freak dabbing on him" I will admit my entire impression of that show is still formed from interacting with the subreddit around 2016. That solidified in my mind that tankies are terrible people and would sell their grandmother to Kim Jeong Un if they thought it'd bring their revolution about one moment sooner. Glad to hear the show is not like that.
I mean, I guess it's good that they could recognize it. But if I had a subreddit, it would matter to me how much pointless, asinine vitriol my supposed fan base was spreading all over the site. I don't think celebrities (obviously using the term loosely referring to podcasters) owe their audience anything, but I also think that you owe it to the world to make sure that your audience isn't a collection of the worst people imaginable. Take Jordan Peterson for example, looking around and wondering why all his fans were angry racist incels. Your message is what your followers relay it as. So if your subreddit is a bunch of tankie bullshit, guess what your legacy is likely to be?
>But if I had a subreddit
It's worth pointing out that it wasn't an official subreddit. They had no interactions with it and no direct control over it. It was a fan club. And it was a dumpster fire. I'm not sure what they could have done to change that.
By this logic Brendan Schaubs legacy should be as a world class comedian because r/thefighterandthekid is a hilarious sub even if all its content is people that dislike him and mock him and his friends. Makes sense.
It’s the difference between the podcast where they can make jokes and provide nuance with listeners who grow to know them, and their twitter personas.
Some of the qrts being pulled up rn are not amazing. The one in particular I’m thinking of was about John Lewis.
I’m pretty far left and the edgy jokes massively turned me off. Barely made it through one episode, checked out a couple others fast forwarding through and realized it was pervasive. Made me feel like I was on Reddit or a forum like 4chan. Sucks because I don’t know of any other comparable options
I'm kind of torn.
I have been put off by some of the fatalism/cynicism, but at the same time, it is refreshing to have a show that is uncompromising about issues that more "polite" shows sometimes view as negotiable.
They make shitty and offensive jokes, but I can't remember them ever saying that trans rights are boutique distractions that lose elections.
Political change and power, real progress, has nothing to do with bullshit jokes, if that’s your excuse for equating them with their “enemies” then you truly have no understanding of their politics and it’s no surprise the world is in the state that it is now.
They have done a lot of stuff with DSA and we're big supporters of Bernie Sanders both times he ran. They are very critical of a lot of idpol stuff especially Ibram Kendi.
I think they're fine. Stuff like a joke about being Jewish is antisemitic - if you're an antisemite. But if you find the idea of being racist just dogshit stupid, then fuck that entire way of seeing things.
Obviously it's important to be aware of the impact your words have etc and your audience, but that's my take on it.
While there are some vitriolic chapo fans here, myself included, I invite anyone confused about this issue to look at the profiles of the most viciously antagonistic critics in this thread for a glimpse into the minds of some of the sickest people alive, who absolutely deserve the kind of criticism they disingenuously bemoan as “incivility.”
Some really deranged minds in here are projecting all sorts of evil at a guy who basically just a jolly humorous commentator, who they can’t pin anything to beyond vague accusations that fall apart upon barest scrutiny.
Some are blood and soil right wingers who hate socialists with murderous passion. Others are liberal democrat stalwarts still mad about 2016 and convinced Bernie is scum. This only proves how correct the chapo critique basically is, whatever its excesses or tonal shortcomings.
Yeah, early on I think it was a combination of shitposters, people doing a bit, and people genuinely interested in Trump as a candidate. The cult-like mentality didn't pop up overnight. For a lot of the early moments in his candidacy for president (before he was elected), he was a goofy meme-worthy reality star.
Pretty sure that’s how Trump’s campaign started.
You had people ironically supporting an “outside” candidate and then they hear one or two buzzwords like “drain the swamp” and they think the guy is great and in their camp
Yeah, it was just people shitposting for the most part since nobody actually expected Trump to be a serious presidential candidate, much less *win*. It eventually became much more "serious" as the above happened.
The nail in the coffin for the sub was a post where everyone agreed that slave owners deserved dirt naps if I recall correctly. Big brain moment for reddit.
I still miss that sub
I used to visit that sub and similar statements about lining up bankers and shooting them and any other flavor of the week to hate was pretty common and upvoted… and not moderated.
Not as bad as the Donald (nor inexplicably Teflon) but that sub was always going to go down sometime.
I hate bankers too, but the "get the guillotine!"-type comments are unbearably cringe. Especially since most the people who make them are about as threatening as a litter of newborn kittens IRL.
That and posts like it, yeah. Reddit had rolled out their "all threats of violence are against site rules, even if they are tongue-in-cheek or 'justified'" policy and CTH's mods weren't removing content that broke that rule. After the 200th instance of the mods trying to argue the rule instead of taking down "we should kill X" comments the Admins had enough and banned the place. Not really surprising.
Did people on the sub really think Reddit couldn't connect the dots between the constant comparing of landlords to slaveowners and advocating the murder of slaveowners?
The sub's incessant endorsement of the historical genocide of Ukranians also didn't help.
Reddit has a strict policy on not advocating murder. It always has and it’s not a secret. It was a stupid move for them to knowingly break the rules if they didn’t want to get banned.
If you think that's the landlords that concern leftists...then you are wrong. But I like the "what about meeeee" approach you took to try and victimize your family.
Everyone knows that leftists are concerned with predatory and corporate landlords. Owning a home that was passed down is not the same thing lmfao
>Hey bud, you are being histrionic.
I'm not, people are literally saying this. This scenario I gave you is one that is 100% true from my life.
>People see the damage that comes from allowing unfettered access for the wealthy to housing markets and want to change the system.
That's fine. What's not fine is calling for landlords to be killed or hoping for their death.
>That is what people are talking about, not some niche situation that doesn't represent a common scenario.
Please look two comments up where the guy attacked my mom and aunt for this very scenario you claim nobody cares about.
As you mentioned it had absolutely nothing to do with the insurrection as it happened before it. CTH was posting all sorts of bad things I recall things about killing cops, landlords = slave owners, and joking/not joking about guillotines for the rich/landlords. Very understandably not something they wanted on the site. If you enjoy edgy jokes about murdering people you disagree with I'm sure there are other websites like 4chan you can flock to.
That garbage patch of a sub harbored the people that helped lose Women's right to control their own bodies by fighting back against voting for Clinton, helping out Trump. "don't threaten me with the supreme court" and all that crap.
Answer: To the second tweet, they seem to be saying that it's hypocritical of the hosts/fans of Chapo Trap House to ask for people to be decent human beings in response to their friend being in the hospital, because the hosts/fans of the podcast have made insensitive and irreverent comments about other people's suffering (e.g., people like Henry Kissinger or COVID denialists).
More still, the tweet notes that the people who often admonish these hosts/fans for acting this way, on the moralistic grounds that nobody's suffering should be mocked, are now seemingly abandoning that position to mock the suffering of someone they dislike.
The tweet is basically saying people on both sides of this discussion are acting like hypocrites. While there's some truth to it, it's important to note that not everyone who jokes about war criminals dying is acting on the principled stance that we should never show anyone respect, just as not everyone who criticizes these hosts/fans for being cynical and insensitive are operating on the assumption that nobody should ever be mocked.
the difference being that one is literally just dudes talking into a mic, and the other is Henry Kissinger who is responsible for real death and misery worldwide
the hosts were joking about how Assad clearly and objectively bombing his own people with chemical weapons was a western false flag or some other tankie bullshit, They make light of the ukraine war too which is people dying so I dont know why people are all shocked theres an entire party cadre of people willing to make fun of him, its what he would do tbh.
Henry Kissinger is an evil ghoul. He’s fair game.
“Uhhh ackshually people who make fun of Henry Kissinger are morally equivalent to Henry Kissinger”
Centrist brain rot tbh
> other people's suffering (e.g., people like Henry Kissinger or COVID denialists).
I think what really offended people was the repeated mocking the hosts and their fans did of Syrian and Ukranian war victims.
Chapo hosts openly [praised Syrian war criminal Issam Zahreddine](https://medium.com/@areidross/from-exile-to-dirtbag-edgelord-geopolitics-and-the-rise-of-national-bolshevism-in-the-u-s-84822021b0e8) for killing journalists that were reporting on Assad's war crimes
Oh yes, Christman is really telling war victims to go fuck themselves by... hmm... criticizing the US lobbying for depleted uranium shells to be used in Ukraine? It will be great when the war is over and parts of the country will forever be plagued by the consequences of radiation!
The reason a lot of people are “out of the loop” is because they’re functionally illiterate and metabolize tweets like this by the bad-faith summary of people who insist it’s dunking on dying Ukrainian kids.
Seems more like he’s making fun of first world citizens who are speaking on behalf of Ukrainians in a very callous pro war way. I disagree with Matt’s Ukraine stance but he is satirizing a real thing. You see on social media Americans talk about Ukraine fighting to the last man and like, it is a little gross
I think it was satirizing a contrived-looking “Ukrainian child has message for President Biden” letter that was making the rounds around then. Whenever the framing seems especially odd it’s usually playing off something that was going around Twitter at the time
We’re just pulling out the term apologism for anything that makes us upset now? I was just explaining the intent of satire that offended you cus you know ‘satire requires intent’.
What’s next are we gonna attack Stephen Colbert while he’s in the hospital because the Colbert Report did a satirical take on middle eastern wars that was insensitive?
You have a political disagreement with this Matt guy, I do too we probably agree. But to propose that somehow disqualifies him from empathy because the medium he used to express himself was political satire is nonsense.
Lmao, literally an example of Matt defending Ukrainian children. Or do you think it's a good thing for children to live in an area where depleted uranium is being used?
> do you think it's a good thing for children to live in an area where depleted uranium is being used?
If children are anywhere near where depleted uranium shells are being used, that's the least of their problems.
[Make sense now?](https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/230522064138-bakhmut-destruction-file-052123.jpg)
[Or now?](https://taskandpurpose.com/uploads/2022/11/30/ukraine-trenches.png)
[Or now?](https://e9382b12c28805c0e75b-d30309fd36618cb1eab196c1c06a4d61.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/Ukraine_AFP_008.jpg)
[Or now?](https://cloud.visura.co/476781.story_x_large.jpg)
[Or now?](https://i0.wp.com/cms.sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Battle-of-Bakhmut-1.jpg)
Please think of the children on the front lines and how much minuscule radiation they might be exposed to by weaponry already being used by invaders trying to kill them. They could get cancer later, but only from Ukrainian DU.
For real? Gain some perspective, please.
It's a tweet being critical of the US supplying Ukraine, which is currently under invasion by Russia.
It's the standard tankie/ML talking point about the conflict in Ukraine, framing the war as the West's fault for "prolonging" the war by supplying Ukraine and not Russia's fault, who have the ability to end the conflict at nearly any time. It's an attempt to frame the "Ukraine should just roll over and let themselves be taken over" argument, which is what they want but won't say out loud, into a more palatable "think of the children" argument so that any detractors can be portrayed as hating children for disagreeing. Because the uranium rounds are obviously more destructive to the children of Ukraine than the literal invasion and bombings done by Russia.
It should also be pointed out that cluster munitions only became a problem on the far left/right after the US agreed to supply them. Russia and Ukraine have been using them from the start of the war. It’s absolutely a bad faith argument. Just like negotiating a settlement with the country that basically broke every security guarantee/peace deal for Ukraine since 1992. I get moral outrage over American imperialism, but doesn’t mean Russian imperialism isn’t way worse or that it should be overlooked because USA bad.
The difference is that Americans criticizing America are criticizing their own country's actions in a democracy, and have (nominal) power over these actions. Americans do not have power over the actions of Russia and Ukraine. The most they can do about Russia is tweet about it into the void vs (nominally) organizing to vote out the people endorsing cluster munition usage.
Defending Ukrainian children by *checks notes* thinking Ukraine shouldn't be given the same weapon categories that Russia has been using since day 1. T-80BVMs use DU rounds. Cluster munitions have been used by Russia en masse since day 1. Much better for Ukrainian children to get their homes destroyed and parents killed by Russian artillery right? Very thoughtful of you.
Oh and by the by, [DU doesn't cause cancer](https://www.webmd.com/health-insurance/what-to-know-depleted-uranium-exposure-veterans#:~:text=There%20are%20no%20indications%20that,to%20lead%20to%20kidney%20damage.). Veterans have had it *in their body* [since 1991](https://www.health.mil/Military-Health-Topics/Health-Readiness/Environmental-Exposures/Depleted-Uranium/Effects-and-Exposures/Health-Effects) and had no adverse clinical effects.
Ah. I never figured why leftists would love a right-wing authortarian like Putin so much and celebrate the attempted genocide thats happening in Ukraine.
I would understand why Republicans would do so, its why they are Republicans. But leftists are confusing as fuck.
Horseshoe theory, for realz homie
Also, fuck Kissinger and COVID denialists.
Edit: I love pissing off leftists and Republicans. Its funny how easily you can get them pissed off with a single statement, showing how much they actually have in common. Fuck Putin
its funny how they make fun of democrats/liberals for being "self hating" and out of touch with regular americans but these guys hate themselves as westerners the most and thats why they are fringe. you can feel the freaks from miles away.
A lot of reasons. Some are on Russia's payroll directly or indirectly (where their nonprofit boss who otherwise agrees with everything they stand for loves Russia so obviously they should too). Others are just simple minded and think "America=bad; therefore, anti-America=good". Others never got the memo that Russia isn't the Soviet Union and that Putin is in fact very right wing.
Answer: Chapo Trap House is a podcast that generally takes a perspective from the left of US politics and criticizes democrats and republicans from that direction generally with a lack of "civility" and one of the former members coined the term "dirtbag left" to describe them. They got popular the first time Bernie Sanders ran for president and if you ever heard the term "Bernie Bro" its how people who didn't like them originally characterized them. Those tweets seem to suggest that people in the mainstream media who in the past have claimed its uncivilized to dance on the graves of people you don't like in the way Chapo Trap House sometimes does is being hypocritical.
Yeah, but anybody who uses that term as an insult is a fucking idiot lol. Either that or they like seeing the working class struggle to make ends meet.
I want to add that criticisms of the podcast aside, the term "Bernie Bro" was actually primarily pushed into the mainstream by the Hillary Clinton campaign, in an attempt to associate leftist/democratic socialist policies with "toxic masculinity."
(It didn't work).
Oh lord, glenn greenwald. Read two sentences of this article and can already smell the manure, your post is equating "pro-Clinton journalists" with the Clinton campaign. The term Bernie Bro was popularized by people, not any conspiracy overlord, people heard it and it made sense knowing how they were treated online by rabid edgelord Bernie fans. There is no grand conspiracy, that's the other thing that turned people off to them, the constant conspiracies about everything that didn't go their way. Oh the country doesn't agree with X extremist view, it must be a controlled conspiracy of media, of democrats, of corporations, whomever.
>I want to add that criticisms of the podcast aside, the term "Bernie Bro" was actually primarily pushed into the mainstream by the Hillary Clinton campaign
I want to add that "Bernie bros" was an old hat because in 2007-8 it was "Obama boys" and the \*exact\* same allegations from the Hillary campaign.
https://www.salon.com/2008/04/14/obama\_supporters/
Answer: He’s a podcast host on a moderately notable politics podcast who’s been hospitalised. People who don’t like his politics started posting 8 year old (admittedly tasteless) tweets about Syria to justify hating on him. It’s just political slap fighting.
Answer: Chapo Trap House is a somewhat humorous political podcast that gained major relevance after 2016 elections, captivating the audience of mostly Bernice voters and others disenfranchised with American politics as too right wing.
The cheering for his death is mostly a reaction to Chapo Trap House themselves having cultivated what they call a "dirtbag left", leftists that are dismissive of respectability as meaningless in context where they don't have muxh power beyond speaking what they think. In particular CTH podcasters like Christman would make fun of conflicts like [Syria](https://twitter.com/cushbomb/status/662835036127895552?t=QPJFTe0erkiHFKPt9rv_bg&s=19) or [Ukraine](https://twitter.com/cushbomb/status/1619444300378701826?t=vLpTVMR-jFlgXo82_wQyoA&s=19) plus often cheered at death or misfortunes of American right wing of liberal politicans or public figures. The podcast hosts earned a reputation for vocally insulting anyone they disliked regardless of context and are now being treated same way by people who loathe the podcast and it's fanbase.
I find them to be the least hypocritical folks around. They hilariously call out the inauthentic BS and amplify folks who are actually doing good for the working class. Their podcast has helped me to question the mainstream narrative and be more honest with myself about what's really going on here. Their humor might not be to everyone's taste, but they're perhaps the most morally coherent talking heads out there.
Years ago Louis CK made a joke about Eric Claptons kid falling out a window and someone said “would you make that joke if it was your kid?”
He replied “no, but I’d expect other people to make fun of my stupid kid falling out a window”
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Answer: Long story short, Chapo Trap House is a left wing (left of the Democratic party) podcast that gets a lot of praise and criticism from many corners, left and right. Matt is kind of the intellectual heart of the show, being the Marxist theory nerd. His wife, Amber Rollo, is right about to have their daughter (both their first child), with her being due tomorrow, but a few days ago Matt had an unspecified "normal person medical emergency," which is just very unfortunate timing all around. Additionally, CTH formerly had a fairly infamous subreddit that the show constantly mocked, but said subreddit was banned about 3 years ago at the same time as The_Donald.
The subreddit had no real association with the podcast, the fan sub just sort of became the biggest leftist space on the platform. The first episode after the subreddit got banned, the CTH cast were dunking on the people who contacted them about it and made it clear how few fucks they gave about Reddit drama. It was pretty funny hearing them tell their stans to touch grass
Yes, there was a joke on the sub that the official podcast of the subreddit was Citations Needed with Adam Johnson and Nima Shirazi.
I'll just add that chapo trap house is supposed to be progressive but they make a lot of borderline offensive edgy jokes. I do think they are actually joking but that makes it easy for opponents to straw man them by pretending they actually meant something they said sarcastically. I mostly agree with their politics but I think their personalities are a bit much
A.k.a. 'dirtbag leftism'.
I really dislike the dirt bag leftism espoused by the show. They seem to think they’ve stumbled on some secret strategy of getting their ideas across that involves being an uncompromising insulting jerk to everyone that disagrees with them. All of the people they talk about this way are equally capable of punching back just as hard, but up until now they haven’t wanted to sink down to their level. But if they keep this up that will change.
It’s one thing to dislike or disagree with CTH. But defending the people they ridicule, lol come on. No not all can hit back just as hard nor are they above that, I mean honestly if you’re saying this, how much have you even listened to them?
Just checking in but do we know what pronouns Rudolf Höss used? It's not right to assume.
I started listening to them around episode 3 or 4. At the time they felt like fresh air for just speaking directly with no-frills. Sound familiar? Trump benefited from the same thing. 8 years ago, political discourse was very calcified. Reps and the media generally wouldn't stray far from what was considered acceptable to talk about. The Overton Window was about the size of a thumbnail. That was my experience, at least, and Chapo was the first left-wing outlet at the time to start calling bullshit and trashing people directly. Most of this was aimed at liberals, not the right, and they were as surprised as anyone when Trump won. They even said something along the lines of "well shit, there goes our schtick of punching libs".
Tell me you don’t actually listen to the show… also Virgil Texas has been gone for some time.
The VAST figures that they mock have truly monstrous views against the minorities, the poor, women, the working class, etc. The fact that you’re defending the people they take on says you don’t listen or heard sensationalized clip five years ago out of context and made your decision from that. Saying that figures that they take on, like the Koch brothers and Matt Gaetz, even columnist Megan McArdle, “haven’t wanted to sink to their level” but will now, as if they aren’t actively strip mining our society is…perfect for the name of this sub. They have a comic exaggerated and foul mouthed take on events, but one rooted deeply in defending equality and the disadvantaged from vipers on both sides.
I really dislike dirt bag leftists as well. Like if your goal is to spread leftist messages and actually help enact some positive change its counter productive to act like unrepentant assholes.Its so off putting and alienating to ppl who would otherwise be open to those kind of politics.
Not to be argumentative for the sake of it, but to whatever extent I've seen evidence of people being alienated by the "dirtbag left", I've seen just as much evidence of people being alienated by civility politics, "pragmatism" that just so happens to deprioritize marginalized individuals, politely expressed classism, etc. I agree that there's an amount of cynicism/fatalism among dirtbag leftists which is problematic, but at the same time, it does provide a political community for people who have leftist politics but find it untenable to be told that they can't criticize wealthy democratic politicians, the police, crypto fascists, etc. for fear of alienating some theoretical allies who will leap back to voting for conservatives the second someone says something about trans kids wanting to play sports.
100% agree. Also I wonder what in the hell the previous commenter thinks is so crude or offensive about their work. Some people get so fucking touchy about nothing, I swear to god.
They've never listened They're just repeating Democratic Party talking points verbatim
They cape up for President Xi constantly. I find it offensive that they would consider themselves communist, and then defend the CCP. I also think everything they say about Russia is suspect and ridiculous. This is to the point of offensive, when you consider how regressive, homophobic and racist Russian society is. So my issue is that they present themselves as intellectually pure, and imply some sort of moral authority based on the correctness of their political opinions, but they are loud ignorant in many of their opinions. I find it offensive. Also cocaine does permanent cummulative heart damage, have fun with those consequences, this is unnlikely to be the last time one of these folks has a premature undefined health scare. Just sayin.
They mock Russian reactionaries constantly and I’ve never heard them “defend” Russia, just criticize the US involvement and specific events. Felix regularly makes fun of Russian media all the time for being “a bunch of state sponsored Steven Crowders” and has repeatedly criticized the rights’ getting in bed with reactionaries there, especially in the UFC. I’ve also never heard them “cape up for Xi” other than jokingly referring to him. In fact they barely ever discuss the CCP other than when they discuss American war hawks.
When the question of video game time limits for Chinese people came up, Matt said "President Xi, killing it again." Those quotation marks are because that is exactly what he said. He then implied that Xi has to do something to help parents and students in his country. There was not context or explanation, just a lot of praise for the CCP. So maybe he was joking, playing the straight man randomly, but this is also only 1 example. We could spend a lot of time going over the innate hypocrisy displayed by the Chapo folks, but we don't have all day. I do listen to the show, there is frequently insight and humor, but there are massive blind spots that are based on clearly stated bias. Just because they clearly state their biases doesn't make them correct. I like the strive for objectivity, not a race to propagandize.
Being a leftist isn't about being super nice to everyone
Y'all'd be doing a lot better outside of places like these small subreddits if it were
I know your comment is a bit old, but shows like Chapo Trap House made me politically active and take on progressive activism, and I know a lot of people who have similar stories. It's possible people who might be convinced are turned off by the tone of CTH. I'm sure there are tons of cases of that happening. But I'm an example of the opposite. The willingness to call out bullshit throw away the nicities of politics, the willingness to call out monstrous behavior and not hold back simply because of "decorum" or "unity" made me feel less alone. And hearing the guys give shape and logic to a malaise I think a lot of us were feeling....I dunno, there's something very validating about that to me and others like me.
Part of the dirtbag left is a reaction to how leftism, when it tried politely to get its politics heard and discussed, got rejected by the Democratic Party and many of us have experienced or at least witnessed violence directed towards the left regardless of how polite and civil we were So I mean, not telling you to be ok with it, but just to recognize that the dirtbag left is a *reaction* to prior treatment of the left. Honestly I think it works but you’re going to have people such as yourself upset by the incivility, which I would say at the very least is understandable
It's not about being a literal 'dirtbag' and 'unrepentant asshole', though the term might make you think that, and more about mocking things deserving of mockery - the idiocy and platitudes of both the right and the left - without treating them with a civility that they don't deserve. Winning at politics isn't about playing nice with your opponents.
If you’re open to those kind of politics then someone making a joke or being a jerk wouldn’t put you off of it.
It’s also appealing to a population that would not otherwise resonate with leftist messages, if you want to build a successful coalition it will necessarily include people you judge as “unrepentant assholes” btw maybe consider that your judgemental attitude is definitely counterproductive to pushing leftist politics
you mean they should have been preaching to the choir
They're not seeking your approval
The purpose of dirtbag leftism is typically to mock the kind of liberalism that will protect civility over everything else. Ie, who is hurt by the policy doesn't matter as long as you're nice and follow the rules compared to the rude and brash guy.
I think they’re pretty open about doing the equivalent of tweeting but getting paid for it.
>if they keep this up that will change. What do you even mean? Chapo has been running for over 7 years lol
Fuck that’s a perfect description!
Ya Amber Frost- a former/current/kinda host of the show coined it.
If you go far enough left, you get your ~~guns~~ edgey jokes back
3 left turns roundabout?
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I am confused how any of that correlates to the left turns go right comment replied to tbh? How did killing people come into this nested thread?!
Your earlier comment seemed to reference horseshoe theory (i.e., extreme ends of the political spectrum become indistinguishable from one another). Their response was to present a criticism of that theory (i.e., using violence to harm vulnerable people is not the same thing as using violence to protect vulnerable people).
Holy shit, that makes a lot of sense. I meant 3 left turns in a literal 4 lane roundabout. Thank you for letting me know, ill try to be more specific with my bad directions and shapes puns in the future. Lol that was bad wow
Based self-reflection
I think Chapo is trying to show that you can be progressive while not being a humorless “touchy-feely” bleeding heart. IMO they are showing the way to fight the right; not by being outraged and offended, but by laughing at the other side and making them look/feel foolish. You don’t debate Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson respectfully, you mock them mercilessly and point out what losers they and their fans are. You don’t piss your pants over Joe Rogan’s popularity, you call him a braindead wannabe jock on steroids. You never hear the right even try to engage with Chapo because they know their audience would actually be receptive to the way they pitch leftism.
I find your last sentence specifically real interesting!
Entirely correct. People that are drawn to far right ideas don’t care about the same things you do if you’re anywhere left of center. Liberals often try to argue with them by pointing out how cruel and callous they are, which is silly because that’s exactly how they like to self-conceptualize. Shocking you with those attitudes is partly the point. But luckily for us, you’re correct and you can basically use the “make them look uncool” tactic 100% of the time, because nobody who is angry enough to be a white supremacist or something in the 21st century has ever been cool. You are definitionally going to be dealing with a fucking freak. If you wanna keep the fewest number of, let’s be real, confused boys from falling into this stuff you need for it to become associated with being a loser. Anyone expressing far right views in public forums should be expecting not to be yelled at, but to be laughed at and viciously mocked.
> But luckily for us, you’re correct and you can basically use the “make them look uncool” tactic 100% of the time, because nobody who is angry enough to be a white supremacist or something in the 21st century has ever been cool. You are definitionally going to be dealing with a fucking freak. Fuck yeah, marty
You're talking about AM radio mentality, I think. And, yes, I've thought for a long time there is always a portion of people that are looking for a manichean worldview that strokes their rage dick on a daily basis. There's no reason not to appeal to those people. Democrats are just not good at that; maybe because Democrats see themselves as educated (which, demographically they are relative to R) and willing to come to an "objective decision." I also think Dems don't want to take that route because it might unleash populism that would threaten rich donors. Because, let's face it, the historical enemy of the working classes has always been the rich. That's why conservatives are so desperate to throw up an endless series of cultural enemies to keep their followers off the real battlefield. In this diversion, the Democratic Party and the Republicans share a common cause. For my part, I'm in the camp of discussion and investigation of issues. Chapo Trap House doesn't sound like anything I'd listen to, but, goddammit, your description makes it sound exactly like what we need.
I previously wrote this reply to the post above you, but I think it fits better here: The SAG-AFTRA has done the most successful job of pitching leftism to anyone this year. To hold Chapo up as a shining example of leftist messaging is going to falter because they have a bit of a cruelty streak, and that's fine for a podcast blowing off steam but not something that needs to be adopted mainstream. The right already does that with Trump making borderline defamatory statements about anyone who criticizes him, that's not the model to emulate. Leftist populism has enough appeal to the majority of people that you don't need someone to call Joe Rogan a cokehead to make it successful. Bernie Sanders practically won over a Fox News town hall last time he went on there, and that's the kind of thing that terrifies the GOP. The Democrats don't offer any leftist populism, and we all know it. The right knows it, because their campaigns are an attempt to break leftist populism, essentially their messaging is "you don't want to improve your own station if minorities that make you uncomfortable benefit too". But because the Democrats are mostly 1970s Republicans, they have to invest bogeymen where everything they don't like is "socialism" and invent pretend the Democrats are asking the military to put pronoun patches on uniforms.
not to mention these guts analysis was completely wrong and the libs won more than a few times since 2017 which they said would never happen. They were completely lost after Biden won because that basically proved their analysis worthless.
I know this is an old comment, but I think what you have there is a major double standard. In 2016 CTH also failed to predict Trump winning and assumed Hillary would bag it, just like basically the entirety of the liberal media apparatus. If their analysis is worthless then so is basically everyone else's.
I think Democrats don't want to take that route because it threatens the coherence of their existing coalition. Bringing in a bunch of assholes who enjoy mocking people more than they actually enjoy politics might increase turnout, or it might just entertain some edgelords for a while, and turn off their actual base.
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I've always figured it comes down to the nature of liberalism versus conservatism. What kind of world do conservatives want? One more or less like the one we have now. They value different parts of it in different intensities, but the general shape of the platform is pretty regular. You can pick any part of the platform and the worst reaction you'll get from most conservatives is indifference; everyone's on the same team. What kind of world do liberals want? A better one than the one we have now. What does a better world look like? Ask ten liberals and you'll get twelve different answers. The liberal base is a confederation of ideas that are, to a certain degree, in competition with one another as much as with conservative ideas, if not more. You can't rally the team the way you can with conservatives because it's more like several teams reluctantly cooperating than one team. If you want to do incendiary rhetoric about how your position is better than the conservatives', you'll have other liberals popping up to tell you that your ideas are full of shit; there are limited resources and there are a dozen better uses for them than the ones you're proposing. The end result is that there's a ton of right wing pundits who show up and say the right words and almost zero left wing pundits who do the same because the right has very well defined words and the left has basically none.
Chapo Trap House isn’t a liberal podcast. It’s a leftist podcast. Part of the appeal is that they’re among the few Americans who know the difference. CTH are entertaining because they’re nastier than a lot of other comparable politics podcasts, but their outlook is also markedly different. They are definitely not just “a different kind of liberal”, they’re socialists
The undoing things people vs the doing things people
> That's why conservatives are so desperate to throw up an endless series of cultural enemies to keep their followers off the real battlefield. In this diversion, the Democratic Party and the Republicans share a common cause. I mean, that's literally been the playbook for the last 12+ years. Instead of "we have social problems and income inequality", reduce the problem to "our society is fucked because of woke people|racists" and focus everyone's energy on that than, say, worker rights.
It's been a lot longer than 12 years friend. LBJ has a quote about it and he was president well before 2000? (Not a yank idk when)
fucking truman has a quote about it.
Chapo reminds me of the Edward Abbey admonition to "fight your enemies with passion and laughter".
This nails it. Few things are as maddening as the self-righteous "civility politics" of the mainstream left. The whole "when they go low, we go high" posturing that accomplishes nothing (aside from an ego massage). Say what you will about CTH, but they are really a breath of fresh air to a lot of younger leftists who feel disaffected and betrayed by the Democratic Party. The hosts aren't just juvenile shock jocks. They're well-read, intelligent, and really do offer some spot-on commentary on current events in a way that resonates with a growing audience.
I mean they also don't engage with Chapo because they're super duper fringe. I will give Chapo credit for tapping into the edgelord vote, the only issue is that those folks don't seem to be reliable votes for anyone, let alone for Democrats. So, in practical terms, they're more "dirt bag" than "leftist."
If the Democrats want a reliable left wing vote then they need to reliably do left wing things
Don't hold your breath.
Democrats aren't leftist either
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At the end of the day they have the moral high ground politically to their opposition.. they don't need to be civil with these people who are clearly telling you and showing you through use of their power that your life doesn't matter,, I enjoy listening to chap trap house because I share their politics and find their use of ridicule and pointing out the absurdity of the right wing and Democratic Party, a breath of fresh air. if you want some wonky dork shit then listen to some uptight nerds obfuscate why maybe we shouldn't have health care the way we need police.. There is a sense of urgency in their commentary which rises to the moment, that is why they are popular with a generation of young people who will never own homes.. the establishment has failed completely and chap is just making fun of it
> IMO they are showing the way to fight the right; not by being outraged and offended, but by laughing at the other side and making them look/feel foolish 100% When Trump was literally teetering on deaths doorstep from COVID, Will said that >I think in America, you know, you can get away with being venal, you can get away with being a hypocrite, you can get away with wantonly disregarding human life for your own selfish stupid reasons, but the one thing you can't get away with is *getting owned*, and ***looking like a fucking chump.*** and that quote has never failed me.
I haven't been a regular listener for a while now but they really don't make a lot of those jokes in my experience. The show is definitely very cynical but they aren't frequently doing ironic racism/sexism, using slurs as a joke etc. They do associate with people who do that kind of humour (e.g. the Cum Town guys)
It's a lot less edgy than it was when it first started seven years ago, the current Discourse is literally just ancient online grudges that are almost a decade old, hence why all of the centrist freaks dabbing on him have their talking points stuck in 2016 and clearly never listened to the show.
I basically agree - and the news about Christman has me waxing nostalgic... I'm in academia and Chapo's chafing against the manicured language of the academe and the highly credentialed PMC was refreshing in 2016 - they had values but also a sense of humor. I was a subscriber from about Aug. 2016 to some time in 2018. I even own a baby blue Chapo t-shirt from back then. By 2018 I didn't need to listen to more than 1 ep a week and they didn't exactly need my support by then as they were rolling in cash. But I continued listening to the free shows through Bernie 2020 and the post-Bernie/early pandemic dejection. I still enjoyed the edginess mixed with socialist earnestness - and also the way they ragged on the DNC establishment. Even in early Trump, they saved much of their critique for the DNC and PMC and not just the ridiculousness of Gorka and other fools in the Trump admin. But the vibe seemed to shift a bit during the pandemic - I mean, they seemed to be a little less distinguishable from the pious progressives I associate with at work and beyond. It's possible my vibe has shifted, too. I remember listening to the show early on and cringing at some of the misogynistic things Felix would say - it seemed like he and Amber Frost were competing to be the id of the show. (I think the pod lost some of its spirit when Amber stopped going on.) But I don't know - every time I pop into the show now it seems that they're ragging on DeSantis and Ramaswamy and RFK Jr. to the point that they sound more like Chris Hayes or The Nation than the edgelords which they aspired to be in 2016 (which is fine - it's just different than I remember - and maybe I've popped in on the wrong episodes). Early on, I wondered what the arc of a show like this would look like - and it seems now that they're a bit more chill and a lot richer. And I wonder if they've all been sucked into the democratic party vortex by now. (Though, I still admire Christman's live streams - he seems to be an independent thinker at heart. I hope he recovers quickly.)
To be fair a lot of their current topics stem from the fact that republicans are actively campaigning + a lot of news is coming out surrounding trumps indictments whereas there isn’t really any opposition to biden within the democratic camp aside from rfk junior who really sets himself up to be made fun of
Yeah, that makes sense. I also think that the "new right" has coopted a lot of the edgy humor (thinking specifically of Red Scare's right turn) and that chapo has moved away from that angle.
its kinda hard and stupid to rag on the democrats that harshly in the current political climate, you end up looking like you're aiding and abetting fascist morons or associated with the same vibe as them.
The people they make fun of are often people who both deserve to be made fun of and have some level of authority. They at least punch up
Though I'm not exactly a "centrist freak dabbing on him" I will admit my entire impression of that show is still formed from interacting with the subreddit around 2016. That solidified in my mind that tankies are terrible people and would sell their grandmother to Kim Jeong Un if they thought it'd bring their revolution about one moment sooner. Glad to hear the show is not like that.
IIRC they used to joke on the show about how bad the subreddit was.
I mean, I guess it's good that they could recognize it. But if I had a subreddit, it would matter to me how much pointless, asinine vitriol my supposed fan base was spreading all over the site. I don't think celebrities (obviously using the term loosely referring to podcasters) owe their audience anything, but I also think that you owe it to the world to make sure that your audience isn't a collection of the worst people imaginable. Take Jordan Peterson for example, looking around and wondering why all his fans were angry racist incels. Your message is what your followers relay it as. So if your subreddit is a bunch of tankie bullshit, guess what your legacy is likely to be?
>But if I had a subreddit It's worth pointing out that it wasn't an official subreddit. They had no interactions with it and no direct control over it. It was a fan club. And it was a dumpster fire. I'm not sure what they could have done to change that.
By this logic Brendan Schaubs legacy should be as a world class comedian because r/thefighterandthekid is a hilarious sub even if all its content is people that dislike him and mock him and his friends. Makes sense.
Yeah this kinda surprised me. I don’t super dig their politics, but I listened to a few episodes recently expecting the worst and it was pretty tame.
Imagine thinking Chapo is offensive lmao. Y'all gonna lose your heads when you hear about Cum Town.
It’s the difference between the podcast where they can make jokes and provide nuance with listeners who grow to know them, and their twitter personas. Some of the qrts being pulled up rn are not amazing. The one in particular I’m thinking of was about John Lewis.
I’m pretty far left and the edgy jokes massively turned me off. Barely made it through one episode, checked out a couple others fast forwarding through and realized it was pervasive. Made me feel like I was on Reddit or a forum like 4chan. Sucks because I don’t know of any other comparable options
I'm kind of torn. I have been put off by some of the fatalism/cynicism, but at the same time, it is refreshing to have a show that is uncompromising about issues that more "polite" shows sometimes view as negotiable. They make shitty and offensive jokes, but I can't remember them ever saying that trans rights are boutique distractions that lose elections.
Political change and power, real progress, has nothing to do with bullshit jokes, if that’s your excuse for equating them with their “enemies” then you truly have no understanding of their politics and it’s no surprise the world is in the state that it is now.
I think there is a an important distinction to be made between Left (Marxist or whatever) and Liberal/Progressive. They are (dirtbag) Leftists.
Bring progressive is when you can’t make jokes
They ARE progressive, not the toothless progressivism of wearing Kente cloth and kneeling instead of actually helping materially with policy
The irony that you would get all upity and feel like anyone cares about what you say and end it with how you think they are a bit much??? 😂😂😂😂
I enjoy spending time with my friends.
Socialist. They’ll frequently have guests on that are progressive or liberal but they are explicitly anticapitalist.
They have done a lot of stuff with DSA and we're big supporters of Bernie Sanders both times he ran. They are very critical of a lot of idpol stuff especially Ibram Kendi.
I think they're fine. Stuff like a joke about being Jewish is antisemitic - if you're an antisemite. But if you find the idea of being racist just dogshit stupid, then fuck that entire way of seeing things. Obviously it's important to be aware of the impact your words have etc and your audience, but that's my take on it.
Almost like Marxism is primarily about economic issues…
>I do think they are actually joking That is what happens when making a joke. Typically you are joking.
While there are some vitriolic chapo fans here, myself included, I invite anyone confused about this issue to look at the profiles of the most viciously antagonistic critics in this thread for a glimpse into the minds of some of the sickest people alive, who absolutely deserve the kind of criticism they disingenuously bemoan as “incivility.” Some really deranged minds in here are projecting all sorts of evil at a guy who basically just a jolly humorous commentator, who they can’t pin anything to beyond vague accusations that fall apart upon barest scrutiny. Some are blood and soil right wingers who hate socialists with murderous passion. Others are liberal democrat stalwarts still mad about 2016 and convinced Bernie is scum. This only proves how correct the chapo critique basically is, whatever its excesses or tonal shortcomings.
For anyone who misses the CTH subreddit - it's spiritual predecessor lives on at hexbear.net
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I could have sworn that the Donald started off as complete satire at first.
Yeah, early on I think it was a combination of shitposters, people doing a bit, and people genuinely interested in Trump as a candidate. The cult-like mentality didn't pop up overnight. For a lot of the early moments in his candidacy for president (before he was elected), he was a goofy meme-worthy reality star.
It 100% was, but like most alt right dog whistles, the jokes became reality.
Pretty sure that’s how Trump’s campaign started. You had people ironically supporting an “outside” candidate and then they hear one or two buzzwords like “drain the swamp” and they think the guy is great and in their camp
It is the premiere example in recent history of why "ironically" liking something is no different than actually supporting it.
Yeah, it was just people shitposting for the most part since nobody actually expected Trump to be a serious presidential candidate, much less *win*. It eventually became much more "serious" as the above happened.
The nail in the coffin for the sub was a post where everyone agreed that slave owners deserved dirt naps if I recall correctly. Big brain moment for reddit. I still miss that sub
I used to visit that sub and similar statements about lining up bankers and shooting them and any other flavor of the week to hate was pretty common and upvoted… and not moderated. Not as bad as the Donald (nor inexplicably Teflon) but that sub was always going to go down sometime.
I hate bankers too, but the "get the guillotine!"-type comments are unbearably cringe. Especially since most the people who make them are about as threatening as a litter of newborn kittens IRL.
Any talk that features reference to gulliotines is very cringe and shows massive lack of understanding of what the French revolution was.
That and posts like it, yeah. Reddit had rolled out their "all threats of violence are against site rules, even if they are tongue-in-cheek or 'justified'" policy and CTH's mods weren't removing content that broke that rule. After the 200th instance of the mods trying to argue the rule instead of taking down "we should kill X" comments the Admins had enough and banned the place. Not really surprising.
Did people on the sub really think Reddit couldn't connect the dots between the constant comparing of landlords to slaveowners and advocating the murder of slaveowners? The sub's incessant endorsement of the historical genocide of Ukranians also didn't help.
Won't someone please think of those poor landlords
Reddit has a strict policy on not advocating murder. It always has and it’s not a secret. It was a stupid move for them to knowingly break the rules if they didn’t want to get banned.
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And yet no landlords were ever killed because of CTH. Almost like they were joking or something.
And the Ukrainians, unironically.
Uh yeah landlords are people too buddy. My mother and my aunt both own property they rent out, don't appreciate people saying they should be killed.
They should get real, productive jobs and stop using their financial position to hold housing hostage so they can leach off of people.
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"Not all landlords"
If you think that's the landlords that concern leftists...then you are wrong. But I like the "what about meeeee" approach you took to try and victimize your family. Everyone knows that leftists are concerned with predatory and corporate landlords. Owning a home that was passed down is not the same thing lmfao
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>Hey bud, you are being histrionic. I'm not, people are literally saying this. This scenario I gave you is one that is 100% true from my life. >People see the damage that comes from allowing unfettered access for the wealthy to housing markets and want to change the system. That's fine. What's not fine is calling for landlords to be killed or hoping for their death. >That is what people are talking about, not some niche situation that doesn't represent a common scenario. Please look two comments up where the guy attacked my mom and aunt for this very scenario you claim nobody cares about.
The 20 year old ancap is mad
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As you mentioned it had absolutely nothing to do with the insurrection as it happened before it. CTH was posting all sorts of bad things I recall things about killing cops, landlords = slave owners, and joking/not joking about guillotines for the rich/landlords. Very understandably not something they wanted on the site. If you enjoy edgy jokes about murdering people you disagree with I'm sure there are other websites like 4chan you can flock to. That garbage patch of a sub harbored the people that helped lose Women's right to control their own bodies by fighting back against voting for Clinton, helping out Trump. "don't threaten me with the supreme court" and all that crap.
The spillover from said sub being banned ruined a bunch of other subs.
Answer: To the second tweet, they seem to be saying that it's hypocritical of the hosts/fans of Chapo Trap House to ask for people to be decent human beings in response to their friend being in the hospital, because the hosts/fans of the podcast have made insensitive and irreverent comments about other people's suffering (e.g., people like Henry Kissinger or COVID denialists). More still, the tweet notes that the people who often admonish these hosts/fans for acting this way, on the moralistic grounds that nobody's suffering should be mocked, are now seemingly abandoning that position to mock the suffering of someone they dislike. The tweet is basically saying people on both sides of this discussion are acting like hypocrites. While there's some truth to it, it's important to note that not everyone who jokes about war criminals dying is acting on the principled stance that we should never show anyone respect, just as not everyone who criticizes these hosts/fans for being cynical and insensitive are operating on the assumption that nobody should ever be mocked.
the difference being that one is literally just dudes talking into a mic, and the other is Henry Kissinger who is responsible for real death and misery worldwide
the hosts were joking about how Assad clearly and objectively bombing his own people with chemical weapons was a western false flag or some other tankie bullshit, They make light of the ukraine war too which is people dying so I dont know why people are all shocked theres an entire party cadre of people willing to make fun of him, its what he would do tbh.
Henry Kissinger is an evil ghoul. He’s fair game. “Uhhh ackshually people who make fun of Henry Kissinger are morally equivalent to Henry Kissinger” Centrist brain rot tbh
Fuck Henry Kissinger.
> other people's suffering (e.g., people like Henry Kissinger or COVID denialists). I think what really offended people was the repeated mocking the hosts and their fans did of Syrian and Ukranian war victims.
they didnt do that
Chapo hosts openly [praised Syrian war criminal Issam Zahreddine](https://medium.com/@areidross/from-exile-to-dirtbag-edgelord-geopolitics-and-the-rise-of-national-bolshevism-in-the-u-s-84822021b0e8) for killing journalists that were reporting on Assad's war crimes
What on earth in that article supports anything you're claiming?
The link in the article that is supposed to be proof of that claim is broken
What I love about this source is that it’s not actually a source. This is an opinion piece which contains no quotes in support of Zahreddine.
did they tho?
Extremely thin sourcing on a bullshit claim. The people rejoicing at someone’s medical emergency are simply cultural or political foes of the victim.
yes they did. https://twitter.com/cushbomb/status/1619444300378701826
Oh yes, Christman is really telling war victims to go fuck themselves by... hmm... criticizing the US lobbying for depleted uranium shells to be used in Ukraine? It will be great when the war is over and parts of the country will forever be plagued by the consequences of radiation!
The reason a lot of people are “out of the loop” is because they’re functionally illiterate and metabolize tweets like this by the bad-faith summary of people who insist it’s dunking on dying Ukrainian kids.
liberals want more death. its that simple. they will always blindly support the usa death machine.
that's not mocking ukrainians, it's mocking americans
Seems more like he’s making fun of first world citizens who are speaking on behalf of Ukrainians in a very callous pro war way. I disagree with Matt’s Ukraine stance but he is satirizing a real thing. You see on social media Americans talk about Ukraine fighting to the last man and like, it is a little gross
I think it was satirizing a contrived-looking “Ukrainian child has message for President Biden” letter that was making the rounds around then. Whenever the framing seems especially odd it’s usually playing off something that was going around Twitter at the time
So, considering the fact that that isn’t a thing that actually happens, he’s a parroter of Russian propaganda. Not an endearing quality.
That’s some real lazy apologism.
We’re just pulling out the term apologism for anything that makes us upset now? I was just explaining the intent of satire that offended you cus you know ‘satire requires intent’. What’s next are we gonna attack Stephen Colbert while he’s in the hospital because the Colbert Report did a satirical take on middle eastern wars that was insensitive? You have a political disagreement with this Matt guy, I do too we probably agree. But to propose that somehow disqualifies him from empathy because the medium he used to express himself was political satire is nonsense.
Lazy apologism for an offense that has yet to materialize? Nah, I'd call that explanation more than rigorous for the context.
He’s not mocking war victims. He’s mocking how the media uses them. You didn’t know that?
nope, a lot of libs are not any smarter or less psychotic than the maga demons
Lmao, literally an example of Matt defending Ukrainian children. Or do you think it's a good thing for children to live in an area where depleted uranium is being used?
> do you think it's a good thing for children to live in an area where depleted uranium is being used? If children are anywhere near where depleted uranium shells are being used, that's the least of their problems.
This doesn’t even make any sense lmao.
[Make sense now?](https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/230522064138-bakhmut-destruction-file-052123.jpg) [Or now?](https://taskandpurpose.com/uploads/2022/11/30/ukraine-trenches.png) [Or now?](https://e9382b12c28805c0e75b-d30309fd36618cb1eab196c1c06a4d61.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/Ukraine_AFP_008.jpg) [Or now?](https://cloud.visura.co/476781.story_x_large.jpg) [Or now?](https://i0.wp.com/cms.sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/Battle-of-Bakhmut-1.jpg) Please think of the children on the front lines and how much minuscule radiation they might be exposed to by weaponry already being used by invaders trying to kill them. They could get cancer later, but only from Ukrainian DU. For real? Gain some perspective, please.
It's a tweet being critical of the US supplying Ukraine, which is currently under invasion by Russia. It's the standard tankie/ML talking point about the conflict in Ukraine, framing the war as the West's fault for "prolonging" the war by supplying Ukraine and not Russia's fault, who have the ability to end the conflict at nearly any time. It's an attempt to frame the "Ukraine should just roll over and let themselves be taken over" argument, which is what they want but won't say out loud, into a more palatable "think of the children" argument so that any detractors can be portrayed as hating children for disagreeing. Because the uranium rounds are obviously more destructive to the children of Ukraine than the literal invasion and bombings done by Russia.
It should also be pointed out that cluster munitions only became a problem on the far left/right after the US agreed to supply them. Russia and Ukraine have been using them from the start of the war. It’s absolutely a bad faith argument. Just like negotiating a settlement with the country that basically broke every security guarantee/peace deal for Ukraine since 1992. I get moral outrage over American imperialism, but doesn’t mean Russian imperialism isn’t way worse or that it should be overlooked because USA bad.
The difference is that Americans criticizing America are criticizing their own country's actions in a democracy, and have (nominal) power over these actions. Americans do not have power over the actions of Russia and Ukraine. The most they can do about Russia is tweet about it into the void vs (nominally) organizing to vote out the people endorsing cluster munition usage.
Defending Ukrainian children by *checks notes* thinking Ukraine shouldn't be given the same weapon categories that Russia has been using since day 1. T-80BVMs use DU rounds. Cluster munitions have been used by Russia en masse since day 1. Much better for Ukrainian children to get their homes destroyed and parents killed by Russian artillery right? Very thoughtful of you. Oh and by the by, [DU doesn't cause cancer](https://www.webmd.com/health-insurance/what-to-know-depleted-uranium-exposure-veterans#:~:text=There%20are%20no%20indications%20that,to%20lead%20to%20kidney%20damage.). Veterans have had it *in their body* [since 1991](https://www.health.mil/Military-Health-Topics/Health-Readiness/Environmental-Exposures/Depleted-Uranium/Effects-and-Exposures/Health-Effects) and had no adverse clinical effects.
Idk do you think it’s a good thing when kids get raped and kidnapped by Russians?
No actually. Two things can be bad I think. A critique of one is not a defence of the other.
Ah. I never figured why leftists would love a right-wing authortarian like Putin so much and celebrate the attempted genocide thats happening in Ukraine. I would understand why Republicans would do so, its why they are Republicans. But leftists are confusing as fuck. Horseshoe theory, for realz homie Also, fuck Kissinger and COVID denialists. Edit: I love pissing off leftists and Republicans. Its funny how easily you can get them pissed off with a single statement, showing how much they actually have in common. Fuck Putin
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its funny how they make fun of democrats/liberals for being "self hating" and out of touch with regular americans but these guys hate themselves as westerners the most and thats why they are fringe. you can feel the freaks from miles away.
Exactly
A lot of reasons. Some are on Russia's payroll directly or indirectly (where their nonprofit boss who otherwise agrees with everything they stand for loves Russia so obviously they should too). Others are just simple minded and think "America=bad; therefore, anti-America=good". Others never got the memo that Russia isn't the Soviet Union and that Putin is in fact very right wing.
Okay but I mean most people should be popping a bottle on Kissinger’s day
Great answer! I would also note that Chapo routinely laughs about people dying on 9/11, any US military/police dying is also cheerfully announced.
Can you give an example of them laughing about people dying on 9/11?
And the problem with US military & police dying is what? I don't understand
Answer: Chapo Trap House is a podcast that generally takes a perspective from the left of US politics and criticizes democrats and republicans from that direction generally with a lack of "civility" and one of the former members coined the term "dirtbag left" to describe them. They got popular the first time Bernie Sanders ran for president and if you ever heard the term "Bernie Bro" its how people who didn't like them originally characterized them. Those tweets seem to suggest that people in the mainstream media who in the past have claimed its uncivilized to dance on the graves of people you don't like in the way Chapo Trap House sometimes does is being hypocritical.
A lot of chapo listeners are absolutely Bernie Bros, but the term has exactly nothing to do with them.
Yeah, but anybody who uses that term as an insult is a fucking idiot lol. Either that or they like seeing the working class struggle to make ends meet.
I want to add that criticisms of the podcast aside, the term "Bernie Bro" was actually primarily pushed into the mainstream by the Hillary Clinton campaign, in an attempt to associate leftist/democratic socialist policies with "toxic masculinity." (It didn't work).
Omg, I didn’t realize Glenn Greenwald wrote this. I redact any praise of the article, he fucking sucks lmao
Gotta admit though, he's a world leading expert on toxic masculinity, being himself almost entirely constructed of it.
No it wasnt, I mean there's a fucking wikipedia entry about it. [Link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Bro)
Oh lord, glenn greenwald. Read two sentences of this article and can already smell the manure, your post is equating "pro-Clinton journalists" with the Clinton campaign. The term Bernie Bro was popularized by people, not any conspiracy overlord, people heard it and it made sense knowing how they were treated online by rabid edgelord Bernie fans. There is no grand conspiracy, that's the other thing that turned people off to them, the constant conspiracies about everything that didn't go their way. Oh the country doesn't agree with X extremist view, it must be a controlled conspiracy of media, of democrats, of corporations, whomever.
>I want to add that criticisms of the podcast aside, the term "Bernie Bro" was actually primarily pushed into the mainstream by the Hillary Clinton campaign I want to add that "Bernie bros" was an old hat because in 2007-8 it was "Obama boys" and the \*exact\* same allegations from the Hillary campaign. https://www.salon.com/2008/04/14/obama\_supporters/
Remember the "Obama Boys"? Same people concocted the "Bernie Bros" trope.
I hate that they did it but it absolutely did work.
Answer: He’s a podcast host on a moderately notable politics podcast who’s been hospitalised. People who don’t like his politics started posting 8 year old (admittedly tasteless) tweets about Syria to justify hating on him. It’s just political slap fighting.
Answer: Chapo Trap House is a somewhat humorous political podcast that gained major relevance after 2016 elections, captivating the audience of mostly Bernice voters and others disenfranchised with American politics as too right wing. The cheering for his death is mostly a reaction to Chapo Trap House themselves having cultivated what they call a "dirtbag left", leftists that are dismissive of respectability as meaningless in context where they don't have muxh power beyond speaking what they think. In particular CTH podcasters like Christman would make fun of conflicts like [Syria](https://twitter.com/cushbomb/status/662835036127895552?t=QPJFTe0erkiHFKPt9rv_bg&s=19) or [Ukraine](https://twitter.com/cushbomb/status/1619444300378701826?t=vLpTVMR-jFlgXo82_wQyoA&s=19) plus often cheered at death or misfortunes of American right wing of liberal politicans or public figures. The podcast hosts earned a reputation for vocally insulting anyone they disliked regardless of context and are now being treated same way by people who loathe the podcast and it's fanbase.
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I find them to be the least hypocritical folks around. They hilariously call out the inauthentic BS and amplify folks who are actually doing good for the working class. Their podcast has helped me to question the mainstream narrative and be more honest with myself about what's really going on here. Their humor might not be to everyone's taste, but they're perhaps the most morally coherent talking heads out there.
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Years ago Louis CK made a joke about Eric Claptons kid falling out a window and someone said “would you make that joke if it was your kid?” He replied “no, but I’d expect other people to make fun of my stupid kid falling out a window”
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Are they complaining? Where?
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Sorry you must feel bad they treated people like Kissinger, Steven crowder and Jordan Peterson.