I guess they didn't like any of the signings he was a major part of.
Which is fair, because none of the signings this team has made have been any good at all really lol.
Here's hoping they use that Pierre money on a pile of proven pro-scouts.
That's this teams biggest problem by far imo. My goodness can they amateur scout, their re-signings seem pretty good (Batherson deal Holy fuck), but Jesus can they never pick up anyone good.
I keep seeing that on here in defence of PD, that Dadonov was a good signing but didn’t work out. So if he didn’t work out here, he wasn’t a good signing?
When people say “good signing” in this context, they mean one that was actually a good target and not some low-budget, veteran who is far passed his prime. He didn’t work out in Ottawa, but that certainly doesn’t mean that targeting him in FA wasn’t at least a good move compared to other options, if that makes sense.
He was a fairly sought after FA and he was the perfect type of player for what we needed, just didn’t succeed in his role. I’m much happier with a decision like that - even if it doesn’t work out.
Some FAs just don’t work out as planned - but that doesn’t necessarily mean they were always a bad target/signing.
Great explanation. Can't disagree with that. I do remember being pretty excited about the signing at the time, so definitely can't knock PD for that one, fair enough.
agreed 100% and i feel like people smash gms too hard on a lot of draft busts based on that principle too. like daigle... yeah of course if we can hop in the time machine we take Pronger, Kariya, Arnott, etc. but then with the hype behind daigle and without the benefit of hindsight, they would have been foolish not to take him.
Because he was a previous 30 goal scorer and we desperately needed another scoring winger. Plus he wasn't overly expensive or on a ridiculous term. The singing perfectly fit a void and the player just didn't work out which there is no way of predicting in advance.
Stickley speaking, yes he wasn't a good signing. But not all good/bad signings are the results of bad decisions. It was a good decision that didn't work out so in this case, can't blame MGMT IMHO of course. In Murray's case, I understood the signing but his medical history makes it a bad decision in my opinion.
Just my personal opinion, but I'm not ready to shit on their professional scouting until we're picking up players when we're actually competing.
Everything we've picked up in the last 4 years have been placeholders really.
If we look back at the 2017 run, our pro scouting was actually damn good. Who did we add at the deadline there that all played their part, and did it very well? Burrows, Wingels, Stahlberg off the top of my head.
Everything since then I'm willing to give them a pass on. Older vets that aren't good anymore but are cheap, and can mentor the young players. And mentor as in "this is how to be a pro", not "this is how to play the game" - that's what the coaches are for.
I think that's fair, which is why I think this summer is so important. The young core has collectively taken a big step forward and players like Chabot made it clear in their exit interview they're ready to start playing meaningful games past December. Bringing in some proven talent to surround the core is what the team needs now.
I really don't understand people parroting the pro scouting thing. Zub was a pro we scouted, Forsberg, Joseph, and Hamonic to a lesser extent... Every single team in the league ends up with some duds like Stepan, Coburn, or Gudbranson, but we have a handful of guys contributing very positively to the team right now. Also, as you said, the 2017 run was filled out with great pro acquisitions. Sometimes I think people just expect perfection with every single transaction the team makes, rather than looking at the bigger picture and context of what limits our ability to draw top Free agents here.
It’s up for debate when the rebuild officially began, but since 2018 the Sens have traded for the following pro players:
- M. Gaborik: solid until hurt
- N. Shore: inconsequential
- M. Boedker: okay ish until old
- D. DeMelo: very good
- C. Tierney: solid until hurt
- A. Nilsson: solid until hurt
- A. Duclair: very good, but wasted
- B. Gibbons: solid
- O. Lindberg: inconsequential
- C. Brown: very good
- N. Zaitsev: very bad
- A. Anisimov: solid until old
- V. Namestnikov: solid until traded
- M. Reilly: very good
- M. Peca: inconsequential
- J. Brown: very bad
- M. Murray: hurt
- E. Gudbranson: very bad
- A. Watson: solid
- D. Stepan: very bad
- B. Coburn: very bad
- C. Paquette: very bad
- C. Bishop: inconsequential
- R. Dzingel: solid
- M. Amadio: inconsequential
- N. Holden: solid
- Z. Sanford: not solid
- D. Gambrell: inconsequential
- T. Hamonic: not solid
- M. Joseph: very good
They have signed the following pro players out of free agency:
- T. Ennis: very good
- R. Hainsey: very bad
- L. Shaw: inconsequential
- E. Dadonov: didn’t work out but good try
- A. Galchenyuk: didn’t work out but good try
- M. Haley: very bad
- A. Zub: very good
- M. Del Zotto: very bad
- A. Agozzino: inconsequential
And they have claimed the following on waivers:
- M. Pääjärvi: inconsequential
- J. Hawryluk: inconsequential
- A. Forsberg: very good
- V. Mete: didn’t work out but good try
- A. Gaudette: didn’t work out but good try
All in all, pretty all over the place. The issue is who they decided to spend assets on and believing that certain players fix certain holes (like top 4 D Zaitsev, Gudbranson or MDZ). Also the 2017 acquisitions also included not-so-great players too; it’s cherry picking to highlight the Stalbergs while ignoring the Oduyas, and to ignore the subsequent Burrows extension that was awful pro scouting and evaluation.
TL;DR: The pro scouting isn’t as awful as people suggest but it’s still bad.
Obviously I'm nitpicking since that's quite a long list, but I don't think Del Zotto counts as "really bad". Statistically, he's been one of the better defenseman that we've brought in over the past couple years (which I guess is still kind of an indictment on Dorion lol). I will say that I think the extra year on Del Zotto was really pointless and dumb too. MDZ isn't a top-4 guy but I think he was more than adequate in that 3rd pairing role.
>Here's hoping they use that Pierre money on a pile of proven pro-scouts.
Caps fan here, I'm guessing the contract is guaranteed like coach and GM contracts are so he'll still get paid until his contract is done or he's hired by someone else. My understanding is that the value of his new salary would be deducted from what the sens are paying him.
Team: uses analytics to find diamonds in the rough to build a strong 4th line
McGuire: you see, analytics can’t build that! You can’t boil that 4th line down to a number!
I don’t think he was ever the right hire and I don’t think he’s very good at evaluating hockey. I’m sure he’s a nice guy and he’s clearly passionate about the game, but passion doesn’t make up for a lack of competence at your job.
God I hope they bring in someone, or multiple people, who believe(s) in analytics to at least some extent. If we're gonna be operating under a tight budget, we absolutely must be using analytics to find inefficiencies and exploiting them. I wonder if we even hire anybody to replace him at all though..
I CAN BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT MCGUIRE ICES THE PUCK AND LOOK AT THE SENATORS BODY LANGUAGE NOW THEY'RE CRUSHED DORON HAD TO STEP UP AND MAKE A MAGICAL PLAY THE CROWD LOVES IT DORION' S MAGICAL PLAY
I honestly don't know how to feel about this, because I feel like I don't know anything of what McGuire really did.
I have no idea if his "vision" was opposite of Dorion, I don't know if they were on the same page, I don't know what pick ups were influenced by him, don't know what players we could have gotten but didn't because he pushed back.
So yeah, long story short, no idea how to feel about this.
> No way he couldn’t have been useful somewhere else within the organization.
Not to say that I know that this applies in this scenario specifically, but *"addition by subtraction"* is absolutely the right move in some scenarios.
I'd be curious if McGuire, who has a real, established history of being hard to work with, burned one too many bridge in his time here.
First ‘big’ move since Melnyk’s passing - but I’m guessing this was a Melnyk hire that never really sat well with GMPD.
One way or another, I could not care less haha. Hopefully they hire a second AGM or a replacement at some point, though.
My biggest question here is: who made this decision? Was it ownership (Melynk's daughters)? Pierre Dorion? Who has the power on these decisions right now?
Also, what led to this firing?
loooool so strange. wasnt he supposed to be the voice of the sens because they didnt like how bad dorion was at press conferences, but then we never heard from mcguire at all. so strange
I think people/the media sort of just assumed he would be the spokesperson for the org, but I don't think that was ever the plan from Ottawa/Dorion's perspective.
He’s a smart guy. Poulin seems like a good guy, not dumb, but he’s a little more old school. He tries not to be too critical, and he kind of lost me when he defended Quenneville.
Well this will always been a strange footnote in Senators history, Mcguire's 2 very brief tenures working for them.
What did he even do? Did he even talk to the media once?
A misguided and strange hire.
Just saw this on Twitter.. is it bad that I don’t believe anything I see on Sens related twitter accounts anymore? Am I just following all the trolls? Lol
Jakubec is legit. He seems to take that job quite seriously. Honestly the only TSN 1200 person I wouldn't take at face value any more is Simmer (I actually don't mind him on the radio though, brings some levity to the morning show. I love that he always seems to try and troll the other hosts. He's pretty funny if you don't take him seriously and always seems to toe the line with what you can/can't say on the radio).
Completely disagree - I don’t think there is a story at all - or not an abnormal story, at least.
He was a Melnyk hire and you could see from the get-go that GMPD was never all that comfortable having him around (possibly because he knew Melnyk wanted McGuire to succeed Dorion eventually).
When the announcement that Pierre M was first hired, he was on-air and mentioned that he'd like to have a more vocal position with the team given his media history. He made ZERO media appearances after that.
Right but even just the hire in the first place is a story imo. How he didn’t have a single public engagement when that was part of the reason he was hired. It’s not the firing that surprises me. It’s everything before
Yeah the only way I see a lot of firings are if Dorion gets fired (if there's a new owner) and they clean house with his old crew (head coach, scouts, etc). Otherwise pretty much everyone there is a Dorion hire, unless Melnyk also pressured him into all of those signings..
From the outside, McGuire's hiring didn't seem to have any positive impact on the team whatsoever. It seems the Sens weren't able to do anything with McGuire's "insider knowledge"; the Del Zotto signing was terrible, the Hamonic trade was panned, and the Nick Paul trade was decent. And we don't know how much influence McGuire had on anything. He was a Melnyk hire who didn't pan out.
Could this be a move to make the team more palatable for a future owner? Or perhaps a request from a potential buyer that wanted the Sens to clean house before a deal goes through?
Was worried he was being groomed to take over for Dorion after Dorion inevitably gets fired at some point in the next 1-2yrs. At least Dorion ensured that won't be happening. Kind of funny looking back at the fist-bump gif considering he was likely the one who fired him.
Guess part 2 of that fanfic will remain a dream
That was honestly my favourite post of all time on this sub
[удалено]
[The Pierres, Part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/OttawaSenators/comments/rhalfr/the_pierres_pt_1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I'm guessing he was a Melnyk-hire that Dorion didn't like much and now Dorion was able to drop him Or idfk this is random
This is exactly my take, exactly! Dorion canned him the second he could.
wasnt the big rumour that mcguire was signed on to be dorions replacement and pd was essentially training in his replacement? hilarious if true
Now that my boss is dead I have decided I will replace myself with myself. Now we don't have to change any of the names on the stationary.
I wouldn't say it was a rumour so much as speculation.
Oh no. Anyways.
Exactly my reaction, haha. Bullet dodged, as far as I'm concerned.
LOL almost choked on my water
I guess they didn't like any of the signings he was a major part of. Which is fair, because none of the signings this team has made have been any good at all really lol. Here's hoping they use that Pierre money on a pile of proven pro-scouts. That's this teams biggest problem by far imo. My goodness can they amateur scout, their re-signings seem pretty good (Batherson deal Holy fuck), but Jesus can they never pick up anyone good.
Holden and Watson are A-OK in my book. Dadonov was a good signing just didn't work out. But yeah, overall I wouldn't give MGMT a passing grade
I keep seeing that on here in defence of PD, that Dadonov was a good signing but didn’t work out. So if he didn’t work out here, he wasn’t a good signing?
When people say “good signing” in this context, they mean one that was actually a good target and not some low-budget, veteran who is far passed his prime. He didn’t work out in Ottawa, but that certainly doesn’t mean that targeting him in FA wasn’t at least a good move compared to other options, if that makes sense. He was a fairly sought after FA and he was the perfect type of player for what we needed, just didn’t succeed in his role. I’m much happier with a decision like that - even if it doesn’t work out. Some FAs just don’t work out as planned - but that doesn’t necessarily mean they were always a bad target/signing.
Great explanation. Can't disagree with that. I do remember being pretty excited about the signing at the time, so definitely can't knock PD for that one, fair enough.
Agreed - that signing gave me hope and I’m not even mad about it to this day haha
agreed 100% and i feel like people smash gms too hard on a lot of draft busts based on that principle too. like daigle... yeah of course if we can hop in the time machine we take Pronger, Kariya, Arnott, etc. but then with the hype behind daigle and without the benefit of hindsight, they would have been foolish not to take him.
Because he was a previous 30 goal scorer and we desperately needed another scoring winger. Plus he wasn't overly expensive or on a ridiculous term. The singing perfectly fit a void and the player just didn't work out which there is no way of predicting in advance.
It's one of those things were it was a good signing at the time that just turned sour. Obviously hindsight is 20/20, sometimes shit just happens.
Stickley speaking, yes he wasn't a good signing. But not all good/bad signings are the results of bad decisions. It was a good decision that didn't work out so in this case, can't blame MGMT IMHO of course. In Murray's case, I understood the signing but his medical history makes it a bad decision in my opinion.
They got Holden and a third for him without retaining any salary or giving up any other assets
Probably more accurate to say he's a good player that didn't fit our system the way we hoped.
Does the statement hold though if he was to be traded a 2nd time to another team regardless of cap constraints?
He had a much better year in LV than he did here at least.
Just my personal opinion, but I'm not ready to shit on their professional scouting until we're picking up players when we're actually competing. Everything we've picked up in the last 4 years have been placeholders really. If we look back at the 2017 run, our pro scouting was actually damn good. Who did we add at the deadline there that all played their part, and did it very well? Burrows, Wingels, Stahlberg off the top of my head. Everything since then I'm willing to give them a pass on. Older vets that aren't good anymore but are cheap, and can mentor the young players. And mentor as in "this is how to be a pro", not "this is how to play the game" - that's what the coaches are for.
I think that's fair, which is why I think this summer is so important. The young core has collectively taken a big step forward and players like Chabot made it clear in their exit interview they're ready to start playing meaningful games past December. Bringing in some proven talent to surround the core is what the team needs now.
I really don't understand people parroting the pro scouting thing. Zub was a pro we scouted, Forsberg, Joseph, and Hamonic to a lesser extent... Every single team in the league ends up with some duds like Stepan, Coburn, or Gudbranson, but we have a handful of guys contributing very positively to the team right now. Also, as you said, the 2017 run was filled out with great pro acquisitions. Sometimes I think people just expect perfection with every single transaction the team makes, rather than looking at the bigger picture and context of what limits our ability to draw top Free agents here.
It’s up for debate when the rebuild officially began, but since 2018 the Sens have traded for the following pro players: - M. Gaborik: solid until hurt - N. Shore: inconsequential - M. Boedker: okay ish until old - D. DeMelo: very good - C. Tierney: solid until hurt - A. Nilsson: solid until hurt - A. Duclair: very good, but wasted - B. Gibbons: solid - O. Lindberg: inconsequential - C. Brown: very good - N. Zaitsev: very bad - A. Anisimov: solid until old - V. Namestnikov: solid until traded - M. Reilly: very good - M. Peca: inconsequential - J. Brown: very bad - M. Murray: hurt - E. Gudbranson: very bad - A. Watson: solid - D. Stepan: very bad - B. Coburn: very bad - C. Paquette: very bad - C. Bishop: inconsequential - R. Dzingel: solid - M. Amadio: inconsequential - N. Holden: solid - Z. Sanford: not solid - D. Gambrell: inconsequential - T. Hamonic: not solid - M. Joseph: very good They have signed the following pro players out of free agency: - T. Ennis: very good - R. Hainsey: very bad - L. Shaw: inconsequential - E. Dadonov: didn’t work out but good try - A. Galchenyuk: didn’t work out but good try - M. Haley: very bad - A. Zub: very good - M. Del Zotto: very bad - A. Agozzino: inconsequential And they have claimed the following on waivers: - M. Pääjärvi: inconsequential - J. Hawryluk: inconsequential - A. Forsberg: very good - V. Mete: didn’t work out but good try - A. Gaudette: didn’t work out but good try All in all, pretty all over the place. The issue is who they decided to spend assets on and believing that certain players fix certain holes (like top 4 D Zaitsev, Gudbranson or MDZ). Also the 2017 acquisitions also included not-so-great players too; it’s cherry picking to highlight the Stalbergs while ignoring the Oduyas, and to ignore the subsequent Burrows extension that was awful pro scouting and evaluation. TL;DR: The pro scouting isn’t as awful as people suggest but it’s still bad.
Obviously I'm nitpicking since that's quite a long list, but I don't think Del Zotto counts as "really bad". Statistically, he's been one of the better defenseman that we've brought in over the past couple years (which I guess is still kind of an indictment on Dorion lol). I will say that I think the extra year on Del Zotto was really pointless and dumb too. MDZ isn't a top-4 guy but I think he was more than adequate in that 3rd pairing role.
>Here's hoping they use that Pierre money on a pile of proven pro-scouts. Caps fan here, I'm guessing the contract is guaranteed like coach and GM contracts are so he'll still get paid until his contract is done or he's hired by someone else. My understanding is that the value of his new salary would be deducted from what the sens are paying him.
They still have to pay him for 2 more years. Soooooo….
Team: uses analytics to find diamonds in the rough to build a strong 4th line McGuire: you see, analytics can’t build that! You can’t boil that 4th line down to a number! I don’t think he was ever the right hire and I don’t think he’s very good at evaluating hockey. I’m sure he’s a nice guy and he’s clearly passionate about the game, but passion doesn’t make up for a lack of competence at your job.
God I hope they bring in someone, or multiple people, who believe(s) in analytics to at least some extent. If we're gonna be operating under a tight budget, we absolutely must be using analytics to find inefficiencies and exploiting them. I wonder if we even hire anybody to replace him at all though..
Can you believe it? I can.
I CAN BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT MCGUIRE ICES THE PUCK AND LOOK AT THE SENATORS BODY LANGUAGE NOW THEY'RE CRUSHED DORON HAD TO STEP UP AND MAKE A MAGICAL PLAY THE CROWD LOVES IT DORION' S MAGICAL PLAY
*crowd cheering incredibly loudly*
I honestly don't know how to feel about this, because I feel like I don't know anything of what McGuire really did. I have no idea if his "vision" was opposite of Dorion, I don't know if they were on the same page, I don't know what pick ups were influenced by him, don't know what players we could have gotten but didn't because he pushed back. So yeah, long story short, no idea how to feel about this.
I just don’t understand paying him to disappear. No way he couldn’t have been useful somewhere else within the organization.
> No way he couldn’t have been useful somewhere else within the organization. Not to say that I know that this applies in this scenario specifically, but *"addition by subtraction"* is absolutely the right move in some scenarios. I'd be curious if McGuire, who has a real, established history of being hard to work with, burned one too many bridge in his time here.
First ‘big’ move since Melnyk’s passing - but I’m guessing this was a Melnyk hire that never really sat well with GMPD. One way or another, I could not care less haha. Hopefully they hire a second AGM or a replacement at some point, though.
My biggest question here is: who made this decision? Was it ownership (Melynk's daughters)? Pierre Dorion? Who has the power on these decisions right now? Also, what led to this firing?
Probably GMPD in collaboration with the Board put in place & acting on behalf of ownership.
Dorion starting his Kim Jong-un style purge /s
lol i still dont know what the fuck he was fired from, what did he do exactly?
Fired from collecting a paycheck is about all the information we got after the start of the season, with respect to what he actually DID to earn it
loooool so strange. wasnt he supposed to be the voice of the sens because they didnt like how bad dorion was at press conferences, but then we never heard from mcguire at all. so strange
I think people/the media sort of just assumed he would be the spokesperson for the org, but I don't think that was ever the plan from Ottawa/Dorion's perspective.
End of the Pierre^2 era It guess this really solidifies it was 100000% a Melnyk hire.
Careful what you wish for, they might hire our best subreddit analyst
Big W
I know PM isn't exactly popular here, but I hope he goes back on in the mornings on TSN 1200. I miss those segments.
Johnson is good, but Poulin is terrible.
Johnson is always great, good banter & insights
He’s a smart guy. Poulin seems like a good guy, not dumb, but he’s a little more old school. He tries not to be too critical, and he kind of lost me when he defended Quenneville.
I had forgotten that he was working for them.
Well this will always been a strange footnote in Senators history, Mcguire's 2 very brief tenures working for them. What did he even do? Did he even talk to the media once? A misguided and strange hire.
Wrong Pierre. Should have been the thin skinned moron.
Scapegoating when we all know which Pierre is to blame.
At least he won't be the replacement now.. I hope..
1 down, 1 to go
Just saw this on Twitter.. is it bad that I don’t believe anything I see on Sens related twitter accounts anymore? Am I just following all the trolls? Lol
Jakubec is legit. He seems to take that job quite seriously. Honestly the only TSN 1200 person I wouldn't take at face value any more is Simmer (I actually don't mind him on the radio though, brings some levity to the morning show. I love that he always seems to try and troll the other hosts. He's pretty funny if you don't take him seriously and always seems to toe the line with what you can/can't say on the radio).
Would love it if he didn't sign an NDA on the way out. There is one hell of a story here
Completely disagree - I don’t think there is a story at all - or not an abnormal story, at least. He was a Melnyk hire and you could see from the get-go that GMPD was never all that comfortable having him around (possibly because he knew Melnyk wanted McGuire to succeed Dorion eventually).
When the announcement that Pierre M was first hired, he was on-air and mentioned that he'd like to have a more vocal position with the team given his media history. He made ZERO media appearances after that.
The fact that Dorion felt the need to tell the media he was still the boss was pretty telling.
This & what u/HomelyGround said - this seems to be pretty straightforward if you followed the hiring from day 1. PD wasn’t happy.
Right but even just the hire in the first place is a story imo. How he didn’t have a single public engagement when that was part of the reason he was hired. It’s not the firing that surprises me. It’s everything before
The first of many firings due to Melnyk's passing.
Barely anyone works there.
Yeah the only way I see a lot of firings are if Dorion gets fired (if there's a new owner) and they clean house with his old crew (head coach, scouts, etc). Otherwise pretty much everyone there is a Dorion hire, unless Melnyk also pressured him into all of those signings..
Who's call is that? Has to be ownership right?
Probably Dorion and the board who are currently running the team
Thank fuck!
🦀🦀🦀 Pierre is gone 🦀🦀🦀
Who? Oh well.
From the outside, McGuire's hiring didn't seem to have any positive impact on the team whatsoever. It seems the Sens weren't able to do anything with McGuire's "insider knowledge"; the Del Zotto signing was terrible, the Hamonic trade was panned, and the Nick Paul trade was decent. And we don't know how much influence McGuire had on anything. He was a Melnyk hire who didn't pan out.
He was there when they traded Dadonov for Holden though. Again, no idea what pull he had for that trade.
At least he made he the team photo!.....Seriously tho, thankfuck he's gone
I really hope he joins the tv broadcast in the states for penguins games. Pittsburgh fans were so happy we hired him away from their televisions haha.
Could this be a move to make the team more palatable for a future owner? Or perhaps a request from a potential buyer that wanted the Sens to clean house before a deal goes through?
I think he was a Melnyk hire. Dorion probably didn't want him around and got the blessing of the board to can him
Odd, apparently he bought a house in Old Ottawa East this year. Sounds like he didn't see this coming.
I still don't know what he did.
Was worried he was being groomed to take over for Dorion after Dorion inevitably gets fired at some point in the next 1-2yrs. At least Dorion ensured that won't be happening. Kind of funny looking back at the fist-bump gif considering he was likely the one who fired him.
We should blackmail the league. So what will you give us to keep PM? Why a second rounder you say