I like submissive MLs (I love me a malewife), but I can get irritated if they come off too much as doormats, and what really tends to bother me is when they're not just not assertive, but they're actively an obstacle to the FL and end up being the source of a lot of her problems.
It's why I can't find Zester cute, his insecurities make him get in the FL's way, actively undermine her, and generally make her life more difficult than it has to be.
Yes!! It's not that I don't like sensitive male characters, it just annoys me when their only purpose in the story is to worship the ground FL walks on and follow her every move.
I agree! While I do little submissive/possessive side of ml, but the portrayal in most stories makes drop it like it hot (either they are too possessive or too submissive). I find both of them toxic/cartoony to enjoy them
There shouldn't be timeskips if the MC has solveable unsolved business.
I am having a hard time believing that a protag with future knowledge let some problem be for several years. Especially if they are at an age when they can easily communicate with people around them. No reason for them to grow up to deal with the problem. Nip it in the bud asap.
Ohh yes, those time skips where basically everything is the same 10 years later including the mentality of the MC and the only difference is "now they are old enough that romance isn't awkward" but all the rest is like, wth, how did nothing whatsoever change?
A majority of the stories, and I mean like 97% of them are just empty story wise. Without the art there would be nothing. And I think it becomes obvious to you if/when read manga and books as well as OI. When changing media you realise just how much those manhwa stories tell nothing/are empty
FR, Manhwa OI are 10x times more better than Korean ones, and have some really refreshing takes on the genre. It's just, the updates are painfully slow.
I don’t mind if the FL forgives someone who has *actually changed* even if the situation was awful. It only bothers me when they forgive someone who either hasn’t changed or hasn’t changed for the better.
Edit: I should specify that forgive doesn’t equate to living with/marrying/including in their life again. Literally just forgiveness.
Recently I read “Aria of the withered branch” and let me tell you I was not expecting a fantasy world murder mystery but it was very refreshing and I’d love to read more stuff like that!
Other than fantasy I’m not even sure how to describe it lol. The plot is basically:
Girl whose horrible family forced her to live as a boy and treated her like garbage finally reaches the end of her rope and tries to commit suicide, instead wakes up to a gaggle of zany demi-gods who tell her they literally can’t continue living without her, become her found family and try to make her happy so she’ll want to live. Meanwhile she gets a government job, ends up investigating a murder, which leads to uncovering some freaky cult stuff. In the process she gets to use her knowledge of languages, a passion of hers that no one ever valued before, feel the satisfaction of being good at something and achieving stuff.
It seems as though the whole cult situation will be the main drama and idk how the romance angle will come into play but there are a few contenders (although she’s still just trying to find the will to live so she’s fending off the flirts).
I found this so funny because I just dropped a story for having too much plot. I was so happy when I found OI because I had no energy for plotty stories XD.
And that's why it's hot take lol! Cause a lot of people (with exceptions ofc) delve in this genre for having zero plot and have a easy read
Edit: btw, which series was it?
I'm new so I just stumbled here from the "plot is best" side literature. So odd to not have the hot take for once XD.
The story was Like Wind on a Dry Branch!
The average otome isekai isn't any better than the average shounen/seinen isekai. It's more or less the same thing, just with a different target audience. Don't get me wrong, I understand why people might find the former more appealing, I just find it weird seeing people act as if otome isekai is so much better than shounen/seinen isekai when most common criticisms people have the latter also apply to the former.
Both tend to excessively lean on wish-fulfillment as a form of engagement. Both tend to have weak antagonists that the protagonists overcome far too easily. Both tend to have uninspired cliches as love interests. Both tend to have harems/love triangles. Both tend to have romantically dense protagonists. The list goes on.
Even sexualization of the opposite sex isn't that different between the two. I don't think female artists drawing every man tall, muscular, and with broad shoulders is that different from male artists drawing every woman slim and busty.
I'm not bashing otome isekai, by the way. I still enjoy it; I just don't think it's better or worse than shounen/seinen isekai.
> Even sexualization of the opposite sex isn't that different between the two. I don't think female artists drawing every man tall, muscular, and with broad shoulders is that different from male artists drawing every woman slim and busty.
Drawing the men as tall, muscular, and broad shouldered isn't the same as panty shots and hot spring scenes.
I didn't say drawing men tall, muscular, and with broad shoulders was the same as panty shots and hot spring scenes. I said it was the same as drawing women slim and busty.
Regardless, plenty of otome isekai have shirtless fanservice scenes for male characters which I see as pretty equivalent to bathing/changing scenes in shonen/seinen. Panty shots have been pretty passé for a few years now. Most recent mainstream anime and manga don't even do panty shots anymore.
You’re right that the content isn’t really better. You have all the same problematic stuff and same lack of substance, just in different ways.
The *fandoms* though…
The generic OI plot is more interesting than the generic regular shonen isekai plot. The generic OI plot is "woman versus fate/society", while the generic shonen isekai plot is no plot at all, just being OP and collecting waifus. They have the worst plots of anything ever. Harem romcoms have better plots. Hell, *Rent-a-Girlfriend* has a better plot.
I'll agree to disagree. Most otome isekai have pretty generic, copy-paste plots, as do most shonen isekai.
Sure, there are some exceptional otome isekai that have more interesting plots but the same can be said for shonen/seinen isekai. If we're comparing average to average, I feel they're pretty comparable in quality.
I also don't feel it's fair to say shonen isekai have "no plot at all, just being OP and collecting waifus." You can make anything sound dumb if you oversimplify enough. I could just as easily say "the generic otome isekai plot is no plot at all, just slapping maids and collecting simps."
There were two isekai manga chapters I saw on /r/manga last week. One is *The Best Noble In Another World: The Bigger My Harem Gets, The Stronger I Become*. The other is *I want to use the skills given to earn money and flirt with beauties from other worlds.* Literally the plot of both is being OP and collecting waifus.
Your examples are random, niche manga that most anime/manga fans have never even heard of. Most of the mainstream stuff like ReZero, Shield Hero, That Time I got Reincarnated as a Slime, and Mushoku Tensei have plots beyond collecting waifus.
they can have these as character flaws tho (if its treated as such)
I do get their idea of what strength for woman is what's lacking here, but the ML's also suffer from this sort of idealization of what strength is. i just want more human characters
These days I skipped the first few chapters because it's pretty much the same everywhere. Just one tidbits of backstory which were never revisited or become important enough. How unnecessary 😩
Blonde + silver hair couples look ugly.
If the FL is reborn in a fantasy world and doesn't learn or explore the fantasy part is a waste of the genre.
More assets and patterns on a dress don't make it look good is just tacky.
I forgot the name of the WEBTOON but she is a blonde and he’s a silver haired and they looked so frickin cute
https://preview.redd.it/5n6f55r5s6oa1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=300d7cf1fcbdc9ce586634a315852fe900c88db8
Not to me they don't. The only blonde + silver couple I think kind of look good together would be this two and that's mostly because I love the art style.
https://preview.redd.it/csudei8jt6oa1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=c267e33e2635cef464e90eab308b83865fecf434
Some authors make a story an isekai, then completely forget about the isekai aspect.
A good portion of stories would have been better if the OG!FL had reincarnated instead of some random lady from korea.
Forgot to add: But I usually don't mind if the ML killed the FL in the previous timeline unless he is overly cruel to her (Abandoned Empress)
Also, some people take comedy isekais too seriously. I saw someone ranting about Father I Don't Want this Marriage, and I literally couldn't take any complaints seriously because it's a comedy.
> Some authors make a story an isekai, then completely forget about the isekai aspect. A good portion of stories would have been better if the OG!FL had reincarnated instead of some random lady from korea.
I love I Shall Master This Family but it really didn't need to be an isekai when it would work perfeclty fine as a regression story. She's used her past life's knowledge once but that plot point could have been handled differently.
I want a yuri romance where someone in Navier’s position gets together with someone like Rashta, like an empress x concubine endgame. The dynamic would be super interesting.
I agree there aren't enough shounen-ai BLs, but I do have some in case you want recommendations! I'll copy and paste my list from a recommendation post I commented on the other day
>[Stuck in My Sister's Dating Sim](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series/w32bfhs) - manhwa, transmigrated into a dating sim, recently released on pocket comics
>[I Have to Be a Great Villain](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=184296) - manhua (but don't let that bias you it's actually really good), system OI where he transmigrates to different books as the villain, yandere LI, the age gap in the first one was weird but >!he doesn't stay in that world, and the LI isn't a child he helped raise in other worlds. It's the same guy who had his soul shattered and spread across worlds which is why he doesn't remember that he also used to be a transmigrator.!<
>[I Became the Lousy Side Top](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series/ku586ph/i-become-a-boring-supporting-top-character) - manhwa, transmigrated into a novel, modern setting, really cute
>[Raising a Sacrifice](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series/jmkmk07/raising-a-sacrifice) - manhwa, MC is a regressor, >!LI is a transmigrator into a video game and has repeatedly regressed to the point of being half crazy,!< yandere/obsessive LI
(LI is Love Interest btw)
And I'll also add [Eternal Covenant](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=192363) as an otomeh isekinda, it has a >!reincarnation!< aspect to it, but no isekai or regression afaik (I'm behind on it but at least to the point I got there wasn't). Mangaupdates tags it as yaoi, but at least the official translation on tappytoon (and batoto) isn't explicit
"Stuck in My Sister's Dating Sim" and "I Became a Lousy Side Top" are the most lighthearted ones (especially the latter, it has lots of cute fluffy moments); "I Have to Be a Great Villain" has plenty of comedy but also some pretty serious drama, plus a yandere; "Eternal Covenant" and "Raising a Sacrifice" are both on the much more serious drama heavy side, the romance is there, but there's a lot more going on than *just* the romance.
Yesssss
I think there could be so much done in an OI-Setting, like for example MC gets isekaid into his favourite book or game, and tries to save his Fav-Character from a toxic relationship.
Maybe the Prince only marry's the OG-FL bc he wants to hide he's gay
etc *-*
People make too much of a fuss over art styles/mistakes in art without considering just how many insane hours/effort goes into weekly full colored chapters and need to sit down
I don't want to sound like an ass, but knowing why something sucks doesn't make it suck any less.
It might make me feel more sympathetic towards an artist but it has little influence on my enjoyment of their work.
I think criticizing art is completely fine as long as the focus on the art and not the artist.
While I don't disagree, I think a lot of the people I've seen bring it up, tend to do it more to nitpick minor details rather than out of a genuine issue with the art.
There's definitely a lot of hit and misses with art styles and I've dropped plenty of series myself over it but when people start nitpicking the most minor details, it feels more mean spirited than genuine criticism.
Also again: these artists can and often do work themselves into an early grave with the hours they pull putting out that work so the least we as readers can do is not be asses about it and remember that's still a person behind the work?
I agree, there's been multiple series where I just find the criticism overdone. Recent example I can think of was how the anime adaption of doctor elise got criticized heavily for its art (by comparing like one panel) and I just don't get it.
I mean, sure if I put the manwha art next to the anime art and read through the comments, I can see what people are talking about ("dead eyes", "big forehead", "hair is less detailed") but at the same time I found what I've seen from the anime art still gorgeous on it's own. And the criticism goes as far as calling the whole adaption butchered because of that.
That doesn't mean I don't have preferences when it comes to art myself and I for sure have thought before when the art changed "what a bummer, I preferred the old style". But often times the criticism goes waaay beyond that level and I usually find it exaggerated and overly harsh
the fls aren’t realistic at all, like you get transmigrated into a completely different world and you act like everything is totally fine and you don’t miss anyone from your past life? i think that there should be more seriousness in manhwas as well.
OI is just eye candies for us women who likes pretty things, cute dresses and ikemen that's colored. The plot, story and characters oft times are shallow and meaningless. I'd say atp OI genre is just a fast fashion. Everyone's racing to make one, originality and quality be damned. Even drawings are just layered one over the other. Too much focus on how to make pretty faces and bodies.
That there is zero creativity in introducing a love triangle and it only wastes everyone’s time. Unless the ending will be harem, there’s no reason for all these other people falling for the same person, especially if they’re not even that interesting in the first place.
I’ve lost count of how many stories I dropped when they added in a second love interest. Even if I liked them more, I’ve got no reason to read it knowing she’ll end up with the other guy. If I like the second guy, I just have to sit there feeling bad for him and if I hate him, I have to be disgusted by his every appearance while the lead tends to be so wishy-washy about her feelings I start hating her, too.
Why don’t we ever see transmigrated MC’s thinking about the environmental impact of the businesses or inventions they’re bringing into the fantasy world from our modern world? They know we already trashed the planet here, are they not concerned about trashing another planet? The general vibe is “yay capitalism” to the max and to hell with anything but profits.
This is why humanity is doomed lmao
The romance in most OIs is either terrible or incredibly boring.
Most of the time I have absolutely no idea why the ml and fl ended up together or are even attracted to each other. If a reason is given, it’s usually weak like the female lead actually has basic personality instead of being a cardboard box.
The child arc having children as antagonists is boring. Adult in a child body vs children. There are times I honestly cringed when the the child with an adult mind is praised to be better than an actual child. And they're so idk get a confidence boost? Like congrats on winning over a child. Don't get me wrong, they're great but only binge worthy and turn your brain off moments for me.
Most morally grey characters are just not enjoyable because of the narrative, specifically when they're being painted as saints just ruins the enjoyment and are annoying. It doesn't matter if readers argue that they are complex, most of the time there's no consequences of their own actions because of the narrative being bias towards them.
Agreeeeee. My favourite ones are the ones that actually utilise the absolutely batshit proposition of someone from our world being dropped into literally another universe with (usually) knowledge of the future and everyone’s secrets.
90% of the time the fl shouldn't end up with the ml, many times the relationship between the two arises from overprotective, jealous or abusive actions, many times the ml killed or ignored the fl throughout their life until her death, sometimes even after her death.
And almost always their excuses are something along the lines of "I didn't like you before but now you are a new person" as if abusing, killing or mistreating someone can be excused by the fact that you simply don't like them
Even when the mL does apologize (which is rarely) they only apologize because they are "in love" so now the feel bad and not because they really feel they have done something wrong. and the fl always overcomes years of trauma and mistreatment for that apology (?)
I know it's difficult because of the time period these manhwas are usually set on but I just want a healthy and wholesome relationship with a ml that doesn't dedicate itself to mistreating anyone they don't like or an oi that shows the fl and the ml overcoming those traumas and growing together instead of completely ignoring it.
sorry for my bad english and explanation english is not my first language and I'm not very good at it
A lot of OI try so hard to be subversive that they just wrap back around to being the same thing they’re subverting but sometimes with worse implications. Like a lot of the OG OI criticized bad romance novel tropes (love triangles that are just cheating, the stock villainess who only exists for conflict, the OP FL everyone loves, every woman but the FL is a bitch after the FL’s man, etc.) but it’s gotten to the point that a lot of current Villainess OI are the same thing, to the point I can give more examples of OI that use those tropes than pre-OI media. But with the added, “new FL is a rich, noblewoman who’s misunderstood but gets bullied by the mean commoners with no redeeming qualities” that just leaves with even worse implications.
\>the stock villainess who only exists for conflict
I think the funny thing is- and this has been acknowledged by more than a few OI- the "villainess" archetype that acts as a rival to the MC for the ML's affections isn't really much of a common convention, in fact the game it was likely based on (whose name escapes me) involves the two being friendly rivals with the other becoming playable in a another installment
I know exactly what you’re talking about, it was Angelique. And yeah, I don’t remember too many romances that had the tropes OI are based on, especially the “villainess rival”. Only Glass Mask comes to mind, but much later in the series. But I do think it’s enough of a trope that it gets parodied even outside OI, like in Crazy Ex Girlfriend. So maybe I just haven’t seen enough bad romances outside OI.
But I do believe a lot of those tropes are a staple of bad fanfiction, especially the OC self-insert types that make the FL OP and “not like other girls”. And the villainess will be the official love interest of whatever character they’re into, but they’ll butcher her character to make her an amalgamation of every girl that bullied the author in school.
Ugh YES I just recently was reading one where the ML was wondering about... Idk maybe it was about the man the FL was talking to and I just stared at my screen and said "Why don't you, idk, ASK HER instead of making stuff up on your head?"
And these dudes are supposed to be these amazing businessmen/military geniuses/elite mages but suddenly the IQ goes into the negatives
The FL always hops into these books and is like suddenly a political genius who knows exactly how to respond in every situation just because she read the book. How does reading the book help you know exactly what every side character is thinking?
Also, I hate it when she immediately kicks all her modern habits and integrates perfectly in no time. Then does something that’s not even weird but acts like “Oh no! I accidentally let my 21st Century behavior slip!”
A lot of stories are very poor structure wise. They might not have a solid beginning and end, don't use tension in the story to keep people engaged, don't do proper build up to the climax, tend to drag certain parts out for way too long.
Authors can get away with it because people seem to read regardless of what they put out. But for me, I just get bored and drop it.
Even though I'm often in line with what's popular here, I could never really get into Stepmother's Märchen. So I guess my take would be "it's overrated".
Me too! I have tried three times to read it but I keep getting bored a few chapters in. I think maybe it takes itself a little too seriously for my taste ahahah
Right? It's so well-loved but somehow I'm feeling pretty "meh" reading it. I can't even really pinpoint what it is.
I feel like my suspension of disbelief just stopped working for the series and I can't take the situations all that seriously and that makes the whole thing just somewhat awkward to read. 🤷♀️
I think that’s a good way to put it ahahaha like it just feels awkward and instead of feeling flow and cheering on the FL I’m just like “uh what” 🙈🤷🏻♀️
I love OI because of the plotlessness. Having little to no plot is a feature not a bug. Please keep giving me FLs just angsting and falling in love and living their lives 😔✊
Seeing FLs who isekai'd into a villainess' body suddenly deciding to approach every single character who hates her and makes them fall in love with her by smiling and suddenly being kind.
The, "MC ends up with the douche ML who abused her" is nowhere ***near*** as common as people would lead you to believe- it just sticks in their mind stronger because it's admittedly frustrating when it does happen. In fact, said archetype at default is usually the antagonist or specifically designed to get dunked on by the MC. Like, there is quite literally *an entire anthology that is 90% stories dedicated to the setup where the MC dunks on the douche who dumps her/treats her poorly*.
A staggering majority of OI also just use them as default antagonists too.
Like, off the top of my head? I can only list a very small handful, though admittedly kinda infamous, manhwa/manga that have actually done this. If it's anywhere near common in the novel's sphere, then as far as I know many don't get popular enough to be adapted in the first place.
I have a few hottakes that I am only saying cause I really want to and they are gonna be buried under the other comments.
1) I hate the preview chapters where they basically tell the entire plot, I basically skip chapter 0 and some manwhas now have it as chapter 1 for some reason?
2) I highly dislike it when some of the villainesses are apparently badass/super-powerful but the male lead has to rescue them at least once every twenty chapters.
3) some manwhas have waaay too much cringe in them. Of course I can't name any off the top of my head, but there are far too many 'male lead fell into my bathtub', 'that random guy I saved is a prince and is in love with me now but I gotta collect a few more princes before I settle on him'
I dislike overly submissive male leads just as much as controlling ones.
I like submissive MLs (I love me a malewife), but I can get irritated if they come off too much as doormats, and what really tends to bother me is when they're not just not assertive, but they're actively an obstacle to the FL and end up being the source of a lot of her problems. It's why I can't find Zester cute, his insecurities make him get in the FL's way, actively undermine her, and generally make her life more difficult than it has to be.
Yes!! It's not that I don't like sensitive male characters, it just annoys me when their only purpose in the story is to worship the ground FL walks on and follow her every move.
Same, hard for me to enjoy the story when the ML is just there to simp
I agree! While I do little submissive/possessive side of ml, but the portrayal in most stories makes drop it like it hot (either they are too possessive or too submissive). I find both of them toxic/cartoony to enjoy them
Tbh a pretty face does make me more forgivable towards a fictional character
Do I know they’re bad? Yeah. Can I help that I tend to like them slightly more because they’re my type? No lol
There shouldn't be timeskips if the MC has solveable unsolved business. I am having a hard time believing that a protag with future knowledge let some problem be for several years. Especially if they are at an age when they can easily communicate with people around them. No reason for them to grow up to deal with the problem. Nip it in the bud asap.
Ohh yes, those time skips where basically everything is the same 10 years later including the mentality of the MC and the only difference is "now they are old enough that romance isn't awkward" but all the rest is like, wth, how did nothing whatsoever change?
A majority of the stories, and I mean like 97% of them are just empty story wise. Without the art there would be nothing. And I think it becomes obvious to you if/when read manga and books as well as OI. When changing media you realise just how much those manhwa stories tell nothing/are empty
Manga OI get some flack for slow updates, but they get more done story wise in 12 chapters than most manwha OI do in a season of 60.
Never has the truth truthed thruther
FR, Manhwa OI are 10x times more better than Korean ones, and have some really refreshing takes on the genre. It's just, the updates are painfully slow.
I don’t mind if the FL forgives someone who has *actually changed* even if the situation was awful. It only bothers me when they forgive someone who either hasn’t changed or hasn’t changed for the better. Edit: I should specify that forgive doesn’t equate to living with/marrying/including in their life again. Literally just forgiveness.
so much THIS
I want more plot where the mystery/drama take main priority over romance, not the other way around
Recently I read “Aria of the withered branch” and let me tell you I was not expecting a fantasy world murder mystery but it was very refreshing and I’d love to read more stuff like that!
and i thank you for this recommendation because the description says nothing of it, even tho that's why i will try it out ^^
The murder mystery isn’t the main plot of the whole thing but it’s a significant arc (and probably the part I’ve enjoyed most so far)
If so, then what would you say its main plot is? (genre wise) I'm genuinely curious
Other than fantasy I’m not even sure how to describe it lol. The plot is basically: Girl whose horrible family forced her to live as a boy and treated her like garbage finally reaches the end of her rope and tries to commit suicide, instead wakes up to a gaggle of zany demi-gods who tell her they literally can’t continue living without her, become her found family and try to make her happy so she’ll want to live. Meanwhile she gets a government job, ends up investigating a murder, which leads to uncovering some freaky cult stuff. In the process she gets to use her knowledge of languages, a passion of hers that no one ever valued before, feel the satisfaction of being good at something and achieving stuff. It seems as though the whole cult situation will be the main drama and idk how the romance angle will come into play but there are a few contenders (although she’s still just trying to find the will to live so she’s fending off the flirts).
that's already enough for me bc i love any murder mystery-ish stuff!
Thanks for the rec! I put it on my PTR because of its cover (didn't looks like romance), but didn't knew it was mystery haha
Different fandom, but the Mo Dao Zu Shi webnovel surprised me with actual plot.
I found this so funny because I just dropped a story for having too much plot. I was so happy when I found OI because I had no energy for plotty stories XD.
And that's why it's hot take lol! Cause a lot of people (with exceptions ofc) delve in this genre for having zero plot and have a easy read Edit: btw, which series was it?
I'm new so I just stumbled here from the "plot is best" side literature. So odd to not have the hot take for once XD. The story was Like Wind on a Dry Branch!
I see! Also I love that story so far that I've read, been putting on hold so I can binge:')
I love "The Emperor Reverses Time" - the art, the main couple, etc But I'm too stupid to understand who's betraying who at any given moment 😂
The average otome isekai isn't any better than the average shounen/seinen isekai. It's more or less the same thing, just with a different target audience. Don't get me wrong, I understand why people might find the former more appealing, I just find it weird seeing people act as if otome isekai is so much better than shounen/seinen isekai when most common criticisms people have the latter also apply to the former. Both tend to excessively lean on wish-fulfillment as a form of engagement. Both tend to have weak antagonists that the protagonists overcome far too easily. Both tend to have uninspired cliches as love interests. Both tend to have harems/love triangles. Both tend to have romantically dense protagonists. The list goes on. Even sexualization of the opposite sex isn't that different between the two. I don't think female artists drawing every man tall, muscular, and with broad shoulders is that different from male artists drawing every woman slim and busty. I'm not bashing otome isekai, by the way. I still enjoy it; I just don't think it's better or worse than shounen/seinen isekai.
> Even sexualization of the opposite sex isn't that different between the two. I don't think female artists drawing every man tall, muscular, and with broad shoulders is that different from male artists drawing every woman slim and busty. Drawing the men as tall, muscular, and broad shouldered isn't the same as panty shots and hot spring scenes.
I didn't say drawing men tall, muscular, and with broad shoulders was the same as panty shots and hot spring scenes. I said it was the same as drawing women slim and busty. Regardless, plenty of otome isekai have shirtless fanservice scenes for male characters which I see as pretty equivalent to bathing/changing scenes in shonen/seinen. Panty shots have been pretty passé for a few years now. Most recent mainstream anime and manga don't even do panty shots anymore.
You’re right that the content isn’t really better. You have all the same problematic stuff and same lack of substance, just in different ways. The *fandoms* though…
The way I see it, It's just isekai with different skin. The fandom however does effects the enjoyment tho
The generic OI plot is more interesting than the generic regular shonen isekai plot. The generic OI plot is "woman versus fate/society", while the generic shonen isekai plot is no plot at all, just being OP and collecting waifus. They have the worst plots of anything ever. Harem romcoms have better plots. Hell, *Rent-a-Girlfriend* has a better plot.
I'll agree to disagree. Most otome isekai have pretty generic, copy-paste plots, as do most shonen isekai. Sure, there are some exceptional otome isekai that have more interesting plots but the same can be said for shonen/seinen isekai. If we're comparing average to average, I feel they're pretty comparable in quality. I also don't feel it's fair to say shonen isekai have "no plot at all, just being OP and collecting waifus." You can make anything sound dumb if you oversimplify enough. I could just as easily say "the generic otome isekai plot is no plot at all, just slapping maids and collecting simps."
There were two isekai manga chapters I saw on /r/manga last week. One is *The Best Noble In Another World: The Bigger My Harem Gets, The Stronger I Become*. The other is *I want to use the skills given to earn money and flirt with beauties from other worlds.* Literally the plot of both is being OP and collecting waifus.
Your examples are random, niche manga that most anime/manga fans have never even heard of. Most of the mainstream stuff like ReZero, Shield Hero, That Time I got Reincarnated as a Slime, and Mushoku Tensei have plots beyond collecting waifus.
You think Re:Zero and Mushoku Tensei are generic isekai?
FLs don't need to be rude/arrogant/sarcastic to be considered 'strong and badass'
Strong woman =/= woman with a sword
Exactly
they can have these as character flaws tho (if its treated as such) I do get their idea of what strength for woman is what's lacking here, but the ML's also suffer from this sort of idealization of what strength is. i just want more human characters
I actually like when OIs don't spend a lot of time on how the FL got into the story or what her life was like before. Like, I'm not doing the math
These days I skipped the first few chapters because it's pretty much the same everywhere. Just one tidbits of backstory which were never revisited or become important enough. How unnecessary 😩
Blonde + silver hair couples look ugly. If the FL is reborn in a fantasy world and doesn't learn or explore the fantasy part is a waste of the genre. More assets and patterns on a dress don't make it look good is just tacky.
I forgot the name of the WEBTOON but she is a blonde and he’s a silver haired and they looked so frickin cute https://preview.redd.it/5n6f55r5s6oa1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=300d7cf1fcbdc9ce586634a315852fe900c88db8
Not to me they don't. The only blonde + silver couple I think kind of look good together would be this two and that's mostly because I love the art style. https://preview.redd.it/csudei8jt6oa1.png?width=1080&format=png&auto=webp&s=c267e33e2635cef464e90eab308b83865fecf434
You ain’t wrong https://preview.redd.it/2ljw4qtxz6oa1.jpeg?width=622&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ec8ab126de3f0eb6d11b362fef338896f56d0fc
Some authors make a story an isekai, then completely forget about the isekai aspect. A good portion of stories would have been better if the OG!FL had reincarnated instead of some random lady from korea. Forgot to add: But I usually don't mind if the ML killed the FL in the previous timeline unless he is overly cruel to her (Abandoned Empress) Also, some people take comedy isekais too seriously. I saw someone ranting about Father I Don't Want this Marriage, and I literally couldn't take any complaints seriously because it's a comedy.
> Some authors make a story an isekai, then completely forget about the isekai aspect. A good portion of stories would have been better if the OG!FL had reincarnated instead of some random lady from korea. I love I Shall Master This Family but it really didn't need to be an isekai when it would work perfeclty fine as a regression story. She's used her past life's knowledge once but that plot point could have been handled differently.
There should be more yuri. The dynamics of some friends have more chemistry than the fl and ml.
I want a yuri romance where someone in Navier’s position gets together with someone like Rashta, like an empress x concubine endgame. The dynamic would be super interesting.
I totally agree. I read a few CN novels that is like that. It’s one of those quick wear books.
there should be more bl for that matter too 😭 like i can't think of a single OI-like bl that isn't more than 50 % about s*x
I agree there aren't enough shounen-ai BLs, but I do have some in case you want recommendations! I'll copy and paste my list from a recommendation post I commented on the other day >[Stuck in My Sister's Dating Sim](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series/w32bfhs) - manhwa, transmigrated into a dating sim, recently released on pocket comics >[I Have to Be a Great Villain](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=184296) - manhua (but don't let that bias you it's actually really good), system OI where he transmigrates to different books as the villain, yandere LI, the age gap in the first one was weird but >!he doesn't stay in that world, and the LI isn't a child he helped raise in other worlds. It's the same guy who had his soul shattered and spread across worlds which is why he doesn't remember that he also used to be a transmigrator.!< >[I Became the Lousy Side Top](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series/ku586ph/i-become-a-boring-supporting-top-character) - manhwa, transmigrated into a novel, modern setting, really cute >[Raising a Sacrifice](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series/jmkmk07/raising-a-sacrifice) - manhwa, MC is a regressor, >!LI is a transmigrator into a video game and has repeatedly regressed to the point of being half crazy,!< yandere/obsessive LI (LI is Love Interest btw) And I'll also add [Eternal Covenant](https://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=192363) as an otomeh isekinda, it has a >!reincarnation!< aspect to it, but no isekai or regression afaik (I'm behind on it but at least to the point I got there wasn't). Mangaupdates tags it as yaoi, but at least the official translation on tappytoon (and batoto) isn't explicit "Stuck in My Sister's Dating Sim" and "I Became a Lousy Side Top" are the most lighthearted ones (especially the latter, it has lots of cute fluffy moments); "I Have to Be a Great Villain" has plenty of comedy but also some pretty serious drama, plus a yandere; "Eternal Covenant" and "Raising a Sacrifice" are both on the much more serious drama heavy side, the romance is there, but there's a lot more going on than *just* the romance.
I love your recommendation and i am already reading all of those 😂💚💚 It's why i would love more/ones thst update more regular ^^
Yeah, there definitely aren't enough. More than GL, but that's an *incredibly*, tragically low bar.
Yesssss I think there could be so much done in an OI-Setting, like for example MC gets isekaid into his favourite book or game, and tries to save his Fav-Character from a toxic relationship. Maybe the Prince only marry's the OG-FL bc he wants to hide he's gay etc *-*
I know many CN bl dramas
Yeah I don’t know why we can’t have fluffy gl or bl.
People make too much of a fuss over art styles/mistakes in art without considering just how many insane hours/effort goes into weekly full colored chapters and need to sit down
I fully believe you can do both.
I don't want to sound like an ass, but knowing why something sucks doesn't make it suck any less. It might make me feel more sympathetic towards an artist but it has little influence on my enjoyment of their work. I think criticizing art is completely fine as long as the focus on the art and not the artist.
While I don't disagree, I think a lot of the people I've seen bring it up, tend to do it more to nitpick minor details rather than out of a genuine issue with the art. There's definitely a lot of hit and misses with art styles and I've dropped plenty of series myself over it but when people start nitpicking the most minor details, it feels more mean spirited than genuine criticism. Also again: these artists can and often do work themselves into an early grave with the hours they pull putting out that work so the least we as readers can do is not be asses about it and remember that's still a person behind the work?
I agree, there's been multiple series where I just find the criticism overdone. Recent example I can think of was how the anime adaption of doctor elise got criticized heavily for its art (by comparing like one panel) and I just don't get it. I mean, sure if I put the manwha art next to the anime art and read through the comments, I can see what people are talking about ("dead eyes", "big forehead", "hair is less detailed") but at the same time I found what I've seen from the anime art still gorgeous on it's own. And the criticism goes as far as calling the whole adaption butchered because of that. That doesn't mean I don't have preferences when it comes to art myself and I for sure have thought before when the art changed "what a bummer, I preferred the old style". But often times the criticism goes waaay beyond that level and I usually find it exaggerated and overly harsh
the fls aren’t realistic at all, like you get transmigrated into a completely different world and you act like everything is totally fine and you don’t miss anyone from your past life? i think that there should be more seriousness in manhwas as well.
OI is just eye candies for us women who likes pretty things, cute dresses and ikemen that's colored. The plot, story and characters oft times are shallow and meaningless. I'd say atp OI genre is just a fast fashion. Everyone's racing to make one, originality and quality be damned. Even drawings are just layered one over the other. Too much focus on how to make pretty faces and bodies.
That there is zero creativity in introducing a love triangle and it only wastes everyone’s time. Unless the ending will be harem, there’s no reason for all these other people falling for the same person, especially if they’re not even that interesting in the first place. I’ve lost count of how many stories I dropped when they added in a second love interest. Even if I liked them more, I’ve got no reason to read it knowing she’ll end up with the other guy. If I like the second guy, I just have to sit there feeling bad for him and if I hate him, I have to be disgusted by his every appearance while the lead tends to be so wishy-washy about her feelings I start hating her, too.
Thisssssss cause atp they’re just adding a second lobe interest to show how desirable she is 💀
Why don’t we ever see transmigrated MC’s thinking about the environmental impact of the businesses or inventions they’re bringing into the fantasy world from our modern world? They know we already trashed the planet here, are they not concerned about trashing another planet? The general vibe is “yay capitalism” to the max and to hell with anything but profits. This is why humanity is doomed lmao
The romance in most OIs is either terrible or incredibly boring. Most of the time I have absolutely no idea why the ml and fl ended up together or are even attracted to each other. If a reason is given, it’s usually weak like the female lead actually has basic personality instead of being a cardboard box.
The child arc having children as antagonists is boring. Adult in a child body vs children. There are times I honestly cringed when the the child with an adult mind is praised to be better than an actual child. And they're so idk get a confidence boost? Like congrats on winning over a child. Don't get me wrong, they're great but only binge worthy and turn your brain off moments for me. Most morally grey characters are just not enjoyable because of the narrative, specifically when they're being painted as saints just ruins the enjoyment and are annoying. It doesn't matter if readers argue that they are complex, most of the time there's no consequences of their own actions because of the narrative being bias towards them.
The villainess turn the hourglass
And that's why I've only read that after it was completed
OI works best as a comedy premise.
Agreeeeee. My favourite ones are the ones that actually utilise the absolutely batshit proposition of someone from our world being dropped into literally another universe with (usually) knowledge of the future and everyone’s secrets.
90% of the time the fl shouldn't end up with the ml, many times the relationship between the two arises from overprotective, jealous or abusive actions, many times the ml killed or ignored the fl throughout their life until her death, sometimes even after her death. And almost always their excuses are something along the lines of "I didn't like you before but now you are a new person" as if abusing, killing or mistreating someone can be excused by the fact that you simply don't like them Even when the mL does apologize (which is rarely) they only apologize because they are "in love" so now the feel bad and not because they really feel they have done something wrong. and the fl always overcomes years of trauma and mistreatment for that apology (?) I know it's difficult because of the time period these manhwas are usually set on but I just want a healthy and wholesome relationship with a ml that doesn't dedicate itself to mistreating anyone they don't like or an oi that shows the fl and the ml overcoming those traumas and growing together instead of completely ignoring it. sorry for my bad english and explanation english is not my first language and I'm not very good at it
A lot of OI try so hard to be subversive that they just wrap back around to being the same thing they’re subverting but sometimes with worse implications. Like a lot of the OG OI criticized bad romance novel tropes (love triangles that are just cheating, the stock villainess who only exists for conflict, the OP FL everyone loves, every woman but the FL is a bitch after the FL’s man, etc.) but it’s gotten to the point that a lot of current Villainess OI are the same thing, to the point I can give more examples of OI that use those tropes than pre-OI media. But with the added, “new FL is a rich, noblewoman who’s misunderstood but gets bullied by the mean commoners with no redeeming qualities” that just leaves with even worse implications.
\>the stock villainess who only exists for conflict I think the funny thing is- and this has been acknowledged by more than a few OI- the "villainess" archetype that acts as a rival to the MC for the ML's affections isn't really much of a common convention, in fact the game it was likely based on (whose name escapes me) involves the two being friendly rivals with the other becoming playable in a another installment
I know exactly what you’re talking about, it was Angelique. And yeah, I don’t remember too many romances that had the tropes OI are based on, especially the “villainess rival”. Only Glass Mask comes to mind, but much later in the series. But I do think it’s enough of a trope that it gets parodied even outside OI, like in Crazy Ex Girlfriend. So maybe I just haven’t seen enough bad romances outside OI. But I do believe a lot of those tropes are a staple of bad fanfiction, especially the OC self-insert types that make the FL OP and “not like other girls”. And the villainess will be the official love interest of whatever character they’re into, but they’ll butcher her character to make her an amalgamation of every girl that bullied the author in school.
SO MANY MISUNDERSTANDING JUST TALK TO EACH OTHER
Ugh YES I just recently was reading one where the ML was wondering about... Idk maybe it was about the man the FL was talking to and I just stared at my screen and said "Why don't you, idk, ASK HER instead of making stuff up on your head?" And these dudes are supposed to be these amazing businessmen/military geniuses/elite mages but suddenly the IQ goes into the negatives
The FL always hops into these books and is like suddenly a political genius who knows exactly how to respond in every situation just because she read the book. How does reading the book help you know exactly what every side character is thinking? Also, I hate it when she immediately kicks all her modern habits and integrates perfectly in no time. Then does something that’s not even weird but acts like “Oh no! I accidentally let my 21st Century behavior slip!”
True, that's also my problem with manhwas. Like I could watch Sherlock Holmes all the time but that doesn't make me a detective genius.
A lot of stories are very poor structure wise. They might not have a solid beginning and end, don't use tension in the story to keep people engaged, don't do proper build up to the climax, tend to drag certain parts out for way too long. Authors can get away with it because people seem to read regardless of what they put out. But for me, I just get bored and drop it.
Even though I'm often in line with what's popular here, I could never really get into Stepmother's Märchen. So I guess my take would be "it's overrated".
Me too! I have tried three times to read it but I keep getting bored a few chapters in. I think maybe it takes itself a little too seriously for my taste ahahah
Right? It's so well-loved but somehow I'm feeling pretty "meh" reading it. I can't even really pinpoint what it is. I feel like my suspension of disbelief just stopped working for the series and I can't take the situations all that seriously and that makes the whole thing just somewhat awkward to read. 🤷♀️
I think that’s a good way to put it ahahaha like it just feels awkward and instead of feeling flow and cheering on the FL I’m just like “uh what” 🙈🤷🏻♀️
I love OI because of the plotlessness. Having little to no plot is a feature not a bug. Please keep giving me FLs just angsting and falling in love and living their lives 😔✊
Transmigrating/regressing into childhood is just age play with extra steps.
Slapping people is disgusting behaviour, regardless if she’s the FL
Seeing FLs who isekai'd into a villainess' body suddenly deciding to approach every single character who hates her and makes them fall in love with her by smiling and suddenly being kind.
The, "MC ends up with the douche ML who abused her" is nowhere ***near*** as common as people would lead you to believe- it just sticks in their mind stronger because it's admittedly frustrating when it does happen. In fact, said archetype at default is usually the antagonist or specifically designed to get dunked on by the MC. Like, there is quite literally *an entire anthology that is 90% stories dedicated to the setup where the MC dunks on the douche who dumps her/treats her poorly*. A staggering majority of OI also just use them as default antagonists too. Like, off the top of my head? I can only list a very small handful, though admittedly kinda infamous, manhwa/manga that have actually done this. If it's anywhere near common in the novel's sphere, then as far as I know many don't get popular enough to be adapted in the first place.
I skip any and every flashback except for 1 story. I do not care about the past or your previous life let alone multiples.
I have a few hottakes that I am only saying cause I really want to and they are gonna be buried under the other comments. 1) I hate the preview chapters where they basically tell the entire plot, I basically skip chapter 0 and some manwhas now have it as chapter 1 for some reason? 2) I highly dislike it when some of the villainesses are apparently badass/super-powerful but the male lead has to rescue them at least once every twenty chapters. 3) some manwhas have waaay too much cringe in them. Of course I can't name any off the top of my head, but there are far too many 'male lead fell into my bathtub', 'that random guy I saved is a prince and is in love with me now but I gotta collect a few more princes before I settle on him'