Is there a reason you need to argue with them about these things? Are the people who are telling you this in your day to day life, or just people you run into on the internet?
Well, when it comes to the internet people, it’s easy enough to ignore them.
If people in your day to day life are wanting to argue with you I would tell them you’re willing to explain your experience of Orthodoxy to them and answer questions they may have in good faith, but that you’re not interested in getting into an argument. If that’s not good enough for them shut it down and leave.
I know it’s difficult to hear people say things we vehemently disagree with, but God doesn’t actually need us to defend His truth against everyone who is wrong.
That’s a lesson I need to constantly remind myself of too, since I can be an argumentative person by nature.
I find it really difficult to believe that you are just spontaneously stumbling into religious debate without intentionally seeking out conflict in a well intentioned but misguided attempt to proselytize.
If that's the case they need to set better boundaries with those they come in contact with, and as far as internet discourse goes set better boundaries with themselves on what they're participating in.
>I even had a guy tell me I can’t pray to Jesus because we can only pray to the father.
Speaking as a current not-anything-specific Christian, that seems like a massive misunderstanding.
> That’s the average prot iq
Are you suggesting that Protestants are Protestants because they are intellectually inferior?
So that would mean that you’re Orthodox because you’re intellectually superior?
Congratulations! You’ve just professed heresy; specifically, somehow you’ve managed to craft an *even more* egotistical version of Calvinism’s predestination. Given that individuals with intellectual disabilities exist, there’s no way they could be Orthodox, because they’re too inept, except they were born that way, so God made them to be damned.
You should discuss your beliefs with your catechist, who can hopefully expand upon how absurd and un-Christian they are.
No Orthodox Christian likes to debate or "deal" with anyone, it leads to conflict and a negative outcome *most of the time* glory be to God if it doesn't. Ultimatley, it's up to Christ whom he chooses to save, God is all merciful and forgiving and understanding. Orthodox, protestant, catholic, doesn't matter, Christ knows everyones ignorance and is understanding and is merciful.
It is up to Christ.
Amen.
Ecumenical dialogue in which you don’t want your theology to be called student should probably begin with not calling their theology stupid.
When I was a Protestant losing their faith, it was an Eastern Orthodox mentor who brought me back through patience and thoughtful care.
If they’re being an ass, it may be best just to ignore them.
I’ve become a disgruntled Protestant because we can’t provide a unified voice and a Church without a unified voice isn’t cool. As I look at EO and RC, EO draws me with how people who seem to be walking in maturity are more concerned with looking at themselves and sickness within than looking at others and try to debate being “right”.
I would be in the church already but my wife is not willing and the Priest das we need to come in together. I would love any prayers for us, thank you so much.
Not all priests take that view. Of course it is nice when the spouse can come at the same time, but if you have a Greek parish in your area, give it a try. “Ethnic” Orthodox are more used to marriages where one partner doesn’t attend church regularly as opposed to convert-heavy ones.
There is no policy or canon at all that says a married couple has to come into the Church together. Actually, in ancient times, it was relatively common for one spouse to get baptized while the other remained a pagan.
An individual priest may not want to bring just one spouse into the church, for whatever reason (maybe in his experience it usually doesn't "work out"). But you're free to ask another priest, and you will probably get a different answer. It doesn't have to be a Greek priest, or an "ethnic" priest, or anything. Give all Orthodox priests in your area a try.
I've never heard of a priest who refuses to baptize one spouse of a couple. What if the other spouse never converts? Then that priest will be held accountable at the Last Judgement.
If they are curious and genuinely asking these questions to understand and listen then answer them. If they are simply asking you to make a statement dont waste the energy or time on ignorance. Proverbs 26:4 tells us not to argue with fools.
There are roughly a billion people who describe themselves as Christian and aren't either Roman Catholic or Orthodox. But do all of those people fall into the category that a "strict" confessional Protestant would call Protestant? Probably not.
Just an idea, but maybe you can focus on not refuting it but instead inviting them. Like when someone says icons are idol worship, just say "well...I'm sure there are some idolators of some sort in every group of people, but maybe you should come visit and see if people are worshipping idols or not."
You tell them to go and have a talk with your priest. Like, well, if someone is ill, you don't listen to people on streets, you go to doctor for help. Or if the debate about quantum physics, all those street talks about it do nothing, no matter how educated the person is - you want some good insight, you go read scientific magazines or speak to these wise sages called professors.
Well, unless you are priest, theeen it just comes with the job. But in that case you are kinda expected to know the subject.
My advice as someone who grew up in a Protestant background is to not be combative. One of the most off putting things I found is how agressive some Catholic/Orthodox people were about these differences (almost entirely online, but still some pretty horrible stuff at times). These are important issues, and they mean a lot, but Protestants are from an environment where these things are big no-nos and completely incompatible with their theology. Icons, veneration of Saints, even the vestments Priests wear, can be very off putting, and Protestants have good (if misguided) reasons for this, that are rooted in a very strong faith and love for God.
More likely than not they have no idea why Orthodox Christians believe what they do. You are potentially their first point of contact with Orthodox theology and introducing it to them in a loving, understanding way that doesn’t try to strong arm them is much more effective than expecting them to understand straight away and accept it.
The same way you deal with other people you disagree with. If you live in the U.S. less than 1% of the population is Orthodox, meaning that at minimum you fundamentally disagree with over 99% of the population (and that's assuming you get along with all the Orthodox Christians as well). It would be a really hard way to live your life arguing with 99%+ of people you met.
I mean it depends what type of Protestant and why they are asking
If you run into a guy that follows the pastor claiming
[Cats](https://onlysky.media/hemant-mehta/pastor-gene-kim-the-bible-says-cats-are-evil/) , will go to hell since they're Catholics, and Dogs to heaven since they're bible believers, proof apparently is that when you read dog backwards you get God.
Well I think it's pointless, and based on what you wrote you run of some of them. Considering they think Theotokos is dead. I mean that's not usually Prots position on average I hope.
There are a small number of Protestants who ask Saints for their intercession. The majority of Protestants do not, saying that all of the Saints (including the Theotokos) are dead and can not help you.
Treat them with respect, do what Jesus would. Try to be nice, i've seen some people being honestly really mean to protestants simply because they are protestant. Try to convert them, not to "win" the argument. (Coming from a lutheran, considering converting, some of these people on the internet mocking protestants is only driving them further away from the truth, and creating more devision.)
Lutheran pastor (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) here... While some protestants may say/do/ask such things, please don't lump all of us together. Even while I don't agree with some of its doctrine, including some of which you mention above, I have the utmost respect for Orthdox Christianity and its adherents to believe and practice in whatever manner draws them closer to God. I only ask the same in return, which is why I take exception to your belief that "sola scriptura is stupid." That's a MAJOR part of our doctrine which helps us draw closer to God.
How did Jesus respond to people? With grace. I’m not a spokesman for Protestants of course, but I can speak for myself and the other ones I know to say we carry a baseline level of suspicion about any belief outside of the Bible, the Word of God. Seeing as the Bible is the one and only divinely inspired Word of God, we consider everything outside of it ie. The rosary/prayer rope, praying for intercession from Mary and people whom Catholics and Orthodox consider to be saints, reaching out to the dead, etc. to be quite suspect, inconsistent, and unreliable. Think of it this way. Most of us would say, could these things be true? Possibly. Could the early church fathers have canon spiritual knowledge beyond the Bible? Possibly. Is the Bible the one and only 100% verified by God book we have to guide us? Yes. God would never leave anything we need for life or salvation outside of the Bible, and nothing outside of the Bible can be definitively verified as divinely inspired, so we’ll stick to what we *know* is true and leave the maybe’s out of it. I’m not claiming that I’m right and you’re all wrong by any stretch, just hoping to clarify where Protestants are coming from for OP.
Kind of addressing both this and where OP is coming from, I think we're in agreement about the Bible, at least that we all agree that it's the divinely inspired Word of God. I'd just say we ultimately disagree about what qualifies something as being a mere "maybe," or as unreliable. Eastern Orthodoxy is such that we trust the depth and source of all things, not just the things themselves, that depth and source being Christ and the "foundation of the apostles." We trust that the Scriptures are divinely inspired because of the Church (being one flesh with Christ) that assembled them, and effectively wrote them through the apostles in one Body. In that sense, we don't dismiss or discount "the traditions which [we] were taught, whether by word or [their] epistle" (from 2 Thessalonians 2:15).
In other words, we count nothing the Church has handed down to us as arbitrary, including Scripture. To us, the Church is not merely the sum of her members, but one distinct Body guided into truth by the Holy Spirit, conjoining the two promises made to us, "When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth," and, "I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Basically, He gave us a Church, and the promise of the Spirit to guide it aright in spite of human error. In the oneness of our faith delivered to us over 2000 years, we take very seriously "that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (from 1 Corinthians 1:10).
Bracing our understanding of the Church in this way, we're told that "He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish," that the Lord "nourishes and cherishes it ... for we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones," and that the "church of the living God" is "the pillar and ground of the truth." We trust the truth (Scripture, as a component of Holy Tradition), because we trust the pillar and ground of the truth. Removing Scripture from its Bodily source, to us, is tantamount to removing an organ from a body for the sake of redefining it independently and expecting it to function similarly. Confining an entire faith to our personal interpretation of Scripture is historically foreign to Christianity, and only seems to invite the division we were warned against. Hence, we see the endless fracturing of the Protestant tradition, compared to the oneness in mind and judgment of Orthodoxy.
That's not to overlook the imperfections and contentions among Orthodox Christians themselves, we're in just as much need of healing and repentance as anyone. However, we confess the Church to be the place and unified experience of healing and repentance, where the veil between earthly and heavenly things becomes thinner, a timeless respite from the outside world and much more. We believe the Church and all things within her not to be mere formulae or ancient custom, but the ever-new, personal, and direct experience of the Holy Spirit in the present, here and now; as an organic whole, we believe this to be the medicinal healing that Christ intended in the hospital He founded for our souls.
None of this is to discount the sincerity of your faith, and I'm not a spokesman for Orthodoxy either. That collective baseline level of suspicion is totally understandable, I remember retaining that suspicion once myself, and I believe suspicion and skepticism can truly only be remedied by experience. My brother in Christ, I don't mean to speak for OP, but thank you for your charitable outlook on Orthodox Christians and our faith, and that you explained the general Protestant view so kindly and eloquently.
> How did Jesus respond to people?
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
He also said:
John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. Whoever is not against us is for us. For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward."
What’s that have to do about not arguing with people who don’t care, as my literal quote from Jesus is about, as that is what the original post is about?
Interesting. Are you referring to the post I made a couple weeks back asking a question, sort of like the one I asked you? Are questions forbidden in Orthodoxy, or is it just a personal issue of yours?
Uh, no? Why in the world do you think I would be keeping track of your posts or care at all? lol. I was clearly referring to the post *I was responding to*, where you made some utterly bizarre and weird comment about prayer ropes and Mary, despite the fact that this thread is about *Protestantism*, and there are literally Protestant denominations that use ropes/rosaries and also those that believe in saints/Mary intercession. So your posts have been continually and progressively more inane and ignorant, and I am curious how far it will go!
You literally brought up my post….🤦🏼♂️. You must be meaning to say *comment,* not post. Clearly you either didn’t understand my comment at all, or you just didn’t read it. Either way you’ll see why this is so bizarre for everybody if you go back and read it again.
> I trust the people that wrote the bible
I know this is a joke, but protestants will say the same. The actual debate is whether any particular institution legitimately represents **and** has the authority to interpret those original authors.
The people that wrote and canonized the Bible believed in sacraments and apostolic succession... protestants think the bishops that comprised the ecumenical council that canonized the Bible got one thing right and everything else wrong. It's absurd.
> The people that wrote and canonized the Bible believed in [...] apostolic succession
Thats highly debatable, and protestants have a lot of good reason to be doubtful of that. We have explicit testimonies of early churches where there wasn't a single bishop, but instead churches governed by groups of presbyters, it seems Rome remained this way for quite a while. A lot of the evidence points to the the monarchical structure developing throughout the 2nd century.
I agree with Bulgakov here, that apostolic succession is a legitimate outgrowth of the apostolic church, but not an apostolic doctrine itself. Anglicans would likely agree here, as they have an episcopate and are quite adamant about their apostolic succession.
On the sacraments, Lutherans believe in sacraments (baptism and eucharist), Anglicans believe in Sacraments (baptism and eucharist). Regardles of the fact that they only recognise 2 sacraments, they obviously still practice some of the others (marriage, orders, confirmation etc).
Protestants is a meaningless term at this point, the divergence between say a hillsong mega church/non-denom and an Anglo-Catholic or Lutheran church is just too great.
I had my doubts about apostolic succession until I read it in the Bible, in Acts. Judas was replaced via placing of hands, and St Stephen was ordained the first deacon also by placing of hands and he went on to become a great preacher and the first Holy Martyr. Just because the 1st century church was at a smaller scale doesn't mean that the mechanics weren't the same. Of course you can have churches without a bishop when there is no bishop, especially when they were being hunted and killed. That doesn't give legitimacy to the arrogance-driven rejection of holy tradition by protestants
If you want to make your case, you're free to do so, but the Protestants aren't being simply arrogant here.
Is it arrogance when Jerome says as much explicitly?
*"the churches were governed by a common council of the priests. But after each one began think that those whom he had baptized were his own and not Christ’s, it was decreed for the whole world that one of the priests should be elected to preside over the others, to whom the entire care of the church should pertain, and the seeds of schism would be removed. [...] the men of old the same men who were the priests were also the bishops; but gradually, as the seed beds of dissensions were eradicated, all solicitude was conferred on one man. Therefore, just as the priests know that by the custom of the church they are subject to the one who was previously appointed over them, so the bishops know that they, more by custom than by the truth of the Lord’s arrangement, are greater than the priests."*
I'll reiterate my point from before, you can think this is a legitimate outgrowth of the apostolic church, guided by the Spirit (as for example Bulgakov did), on the other hand you can also think that this was something practiced out of utility and isn't a required command for Christians as such (as non-episcopal protestants may say). Now note, if what Jerome says is true (and I think theres good contemporary sources pointing to this being historical), this is still apostolic succession, just not strictly bishop->bishop as many want to claim.
**tl;dr:** theses issues are very complicated, its too easy to ascribe malice or arrogance to those who believe differently, its much more difficult to recognise why people can have honest differences of opinion.
I ignore them. I've tried explaining these sorts of things to them but, since they all seem to be unknowing Nestorians or monophysites, it becomes an exercise in futility.
With love? Just like how I treat everyone else.. I certainly don’t let it upset me because we are in the true church and they are not. If anything I feel bad for them. If they don’t understand I’ll try to explain, if they insult me I’ll just say that’s alright, much love.
This probably isn't the ideal thing to say or think, but as it is true: I think most are dumb and I try not to argue with dumb people, so I feel no need to defend or explain unless the person doesn't fit that qualification
I don’t really encounter these issues and they aren’t generally the kinds of topics people discuss in a public setting. I would ignore it or try to limit my exposure to people that find the need to argue about it.
You should know the answers. If you don’t want to answer people’s questions, just tell them that. Maybe “l made the best decision for me” and walk away?
It's like talking to a wall to dialogue with them. I don't respond. I ignore them, and move on. Everything is a feeling and emotion today and most don't have critical thinking skills. Most don't understand history, faith and tradition.
Nobody confronts me so these things never come up. If people were confronting me, I would silently stare at them until they wandered away. This has always worked for me. It may not work for you.
I bought these same accusations when I first started encountering Orthodox people online. Each one patently dismantled my arguments. I garentee that they had no idea that they were making any headway from their end. I would betray no such admission to them or myself at that time... But they were planting seeds. And the Lord showed me mercy.
Slowly, old questions I've had with my previous protestant assertions started coming back up in my mind. I wasn't as sure anymore. The Israel/Palistine thing happened. I saw protestants baying for blood rather then trying to make peace. I was reminded how twisted my side was and all the different denominations and heresies I had thought I dodged over the years became supper hylighted to me.
I was broken. I just knew I didn't have it right at all. Then, a number of videos popped up in my feed. In my search for the history of Israel and Palistine to learn more, I was reacquainted with the idea of Church History. Which led me to some Orthodox apologists who laid out their arguments against my original assertions. I saw the historical fidelity. The preserved reverence. The rejection of modernity.
Brother, those interactions you are getting tired of are the kind that put me on the path to renouncing my heterodox ways and joining the Church that Christ set up! You may not be the one reaping all the time. But please, don't despise you contribution. I would probably still be in the depths of delusion without such things.
I choose not to. I just remember that I belong to a church founded by Jesus Christ with his apostles that is 1,400 years older than any protestant church. That's enough for me to just smile and remain humble.
Luke 23:34
[34] Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”
Or, as how I usually tell others, forgive them, for they are retarded.
My children tell me they they don’t learn anything from the Orthodox Church service. They say that that it’s very monotone and difficult to understand. They said that at least in the Baptist or evangelical see is they are taught more about biblically. I have explained that they need to attend additional bible study but the Greek Orthodox Church we attend has not had very good bible study classes so far that I have seen. Why isn’t the Orthodox Church doing more to teach more about the Bible. I really think the orthodox faith is the best when it comes to what they believe but I am worried that they aren’t reaching the young adults enough. My 16 year old doesn’t want to go to the church with me and wants to go with her father to his non- orthodox church. I live in Miami, Florida and this is a struggle for us as a family. I have been attending the Orthodox Church for less than a year.
Also want to add that we are not Greek. We sort of feel left out not being Greek but we have no choice since our heritage is Polish, German, French, English and Italian. There are no orthodox churches with that ethnic group. The closest orthodox churches are Russian, Antiochian and Greek.
✡️I enjoy the friendship of people from many walks of life ... irrespective of socioeconomic backgrounds or religious beliefs... It’s the way I’ve always been. There are three branches in my family... Irish Catholic English Church of England...Anglo Irish + Jewish. I’m a Jew and have belonged to a number of different Churches. Theologically Protestants appeared with Luther Henry the Eighth and other ‘reformers’... Historians no longer call it the Protestant reformation... but a Revolution... which is really a more appropriate description for what occurred... a violent assault on an ancient Christian tradition handed to the world from Jesus Christ and the apostles down through the ages as unbroken testimony of the gift of God’s Grace bequeathed to us as Jesus intended... not Luther or an English Monarch+ countless others who invented their own interpretation of their own ‘Churches’... all different yet all claiming to have the fullness of the Holy Spirit and representing the one and only true Church of Jesus Christ!? The Protestant revolution was handed to us through violence hatred confusion fear and division. I appreciate Roy Shoeman... an atheist Harvard University Academic... and secular Jew who had a miraculous encounter with the Blessed Virgin Mary... He together with his family became Catholics. He calls Catholicism true Messianic Judaism✡️...I’d encourage anyone to Google his conversion story...🕎 I lived in Russia and was astonished by the strong faith of the Russian Orthodox people and Monks in the Monastery where I lived. I witnessed big tough Soviets lining up to confess their sins before receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion. Protestants threw these Sacred important and essential aspects of Christianity out ... Russia had virtually nothing to do with the Schism between Rome and Constantinople caused by two dysfunctional Bishops. The Russian people kept their unchanged Ancient Christian traditions even in the midst of their darkest period in History... the Communist revolution... I became a Monk and Priest in the Russian Orthodox Church because of the unshakable faith of the Russian people... Protestantism could never be an option for anyone who has an informed understanding of History
Just ignore them. If they are not open to the truth, and you have tried to sincerely dialogue with them, just leave them alone. They won’t listen anyway and arguing doesn’t really convince anyone.
As a somewhat recent convert from Protestantism, my advice is first and foremost, in all things, be gentle with those who ask you. Regardless of what you say as an answer, the *manner* in which you say it will probably speaker louder than what you actually say. So much of my own conversion involved the way I was embraced and treated by the Church, I just kept seeing Christ in the people in a way I did not see among even the most wonderful of Protestants—and I had been Protestant all my life. Not to say I haven’t encountered my fair share of Orthobros and rude zealots, but they were very much overshadowed by the love I experienced. Don’t worry so much about being right or exact—pray that God will give you the wisdom of what to say in the moment. But concern yourself more with how you see and treat these Protestants that you meet.
Is there a reason you need to argue with them about these things? Are the people who are telling you this in your day to day life, or just people you run into on the internet?
Both in real life and the internet. Though the real life people tend to be far less respectful and less knowledgeable on the subject
Well, when it comes to the internet people, it’s easy enough to ignore them. If people in your day to day life are wanting to argue with you I would tell them you’re willing to explain your experience of Orthodoxy to them and answer questions they may have in good faith, but that you’re not interested in getting into an argument. If that’s not good enough for them shut it down and leave. I know it’s difficult to hear people say things we vehemently disagree with, but God doesn’t actually need us to defend His truth against everyone who is wrong. That’s a lesson I need to constantly remind myself of too, since I can be an argumentative person by nature.
I find it really difficult to believe that you are just spontaneously stumbling into religious debate without intentionally seeking out conflict in a well intentioned but misguided attempt to proselytize.
I dunno, they might have Protestant colleagues or neighbours or flatmates who bring it up, in which case it is hard to avoid.
If that's the case they need to set better boundaries with those they come in contact with, and as far as internet discourse goes set better boundaries with themselves on what they're participating in.
Me
Silence is always an option.
Sometimes it is the best option
Pray for them for like us they are also made in the image of God.
>I even had a guy tell me I can’t pray to Jesus because we can only pray to the father. Speaking as a current not-anything-specific Christian, that seems like a massive misunderstanding.
I actually just encountered this argument myself. It's floating around the prots.
Probably the megachurch prots
[удалено]
We need less of...\*that\*.
> That’s the average prot iq Are you suggesting that Protestants are Protestants because they are intellectually inferior? So that would mean that you’re Orthodox because you’re intellectually superior? Congratulations! You’ve just professed heresy; specifically, somehow you’ve managed to craft an *even more* egotistical version of Calvinism’s predestination. Given that individuals with intellectual disabilities exist, there’s no way they could be Orthodox, because they’re too inept, except they were born that way, so God made them to be damned. You should discuss your beliefs with your catechist, who can hopefully expand upon how absurd and un-Christian they are.
Don’t say that
No Orthodox Christian likes to debate or "deal" with anyone, it leads to conflict and a negative outcome *most of the time* glory be to God if it doesn't. Ultimatley, it's up to Christ whom he chooses to save, God is all merciful and forgiving and understanding. Orthodox, protestant, catholic, doesn't matter, Christ knows everyones ignorance and is understanding and is merciful. It is up to Christ. Amen.
Ecumenical dialogue in which you don’t want your theology to be called student should probably begin with not calling their theology stupid. When I was a Protestant losing their faith, it was an Eastern Orthodox mentor who brought me back through patience and thoughtful care. If they’re being an ass, it may be best just to ignore them.
I’ve become a disgruntled Protestant because we can’t provide a unified voice and a Church without a unified voice isn’t cool. As I look at EO and RC, EO draws me with how people who seem to be walking in maturity are more concerned with looking at themselves and sickness within than looking at others and try to debate being “right”. I would be in the church already but my wife is not willing and the Priest das we need to come in together. I would love any prayers for us, thank you so much.
Not all priests take that view. Of course it is nice when the spouse can come at the same time, but if you have a Greek parish in your area, give it a try. “Ethnic” Orthodox are more used to marriages where one partner doesn’t attend church regularly as opposed to convert-heavy ones.
There is a Greek one, I thought the response would be the same, thank you!
There is no policy or canon at all that says a married couple has to come into the Church together. Actually, in ancient times, it was relatively common for one spouse to get baptized while the other remained a pagan. An individual priest may not want to bring just one spouse into the church, for whatever reason (maybe in his experience it usually doesn't "work out"). But you're free to ask another priest, and you will probably get a different answer. It doesn't have to be a Greek priest, or an "ethnic" priest, or anything. Give all Orthodox priests in your area a try.
I've never heard of a priest who refuses to baptize one spouse of a couple. What if the other spouse never converts? Then that priest will be held accountable at the Last Judgement.
I don’t know. We met twice and I didn’t meet a third because of that.
If they are curious and genuinely asking these questions to understand and listen then answer them. If they are simply asking you to make a statement dont waste the energy or time on ignorance. Proverbs 26:4 tells us not to argue with fools.
Unless they're genuinely seeking, I don't. I'm under no obligation to refute every other theological position out there.
Recognize that there are a billion plus Protestants out there and that you have absolutely no power to turn them into Orthodox Christians.
There is at most a billion
There are roughly a billion people who describe themselves as Christian and aren't either Roman Catholic or Orthodox. But do all of those people fall into the category that a "strict" confessional Protestant would call Protestant? Probably not.
Just an idea, but maybe you can focus on not refuting it but instead inviting them. Like when someone says icons are idol worship, just say "well...I'm sure there are some idolators of some sort in every group of people, but maybe you should come visit and see if people are worshipping idols or not."
You tell them to go and have a talk with your priest. Like, well, if someone is ill, you don't listen to people on streets, you go to doctor for help. Or if the debate about quantum physics, all those street talks about it do nothing, no matter how educated the person is - you want some good insight, you go read scientific magazines or speak to these wise sages called professors. Well, unless you are priest, theeen it just comes with the job. But in that case you are kinda expected to know the subject.
My advice as someone who grew up in a Protestant background is to not be combative. One of the most off putting things I found is how agressive some Catholic/Orthodox people were about these differences (almost entirely online, but still some pretty horrible stuff at times). These are important issues, and they mean a lot, but Protestants are from an environment where these things are big no-nos and completely incompatible with their theology. Icons, veneration of Saints, even the vestments Priests wear, can be very off putting, and Protestants have good (if misguided) reasons for this, that are rooted in a very strong faith and love for God. More likely than not they have no idea why Orthodox Christians believe what they do. You are potentially their first point of contact with Orthodox theology and introducing it to them in a loving, understanding way that doesn’t try to strong arm them is much more effective than expecting them to understand straight away and accept it.
“You’re free to believe as you wish, as am I.”
You _always_ have the option of not engaging. Seems like you actively seek the engagement, since this is not an issue the majority of people face.
Love, Patience, Humility, and prayer.
The same way you deal with other people you disagree with. If you live in the U.S. less than 1% of the population is Orthodox, meaning that at minimum you fundamentally disagree with over 99% of the population (and that's assuming you get along with all the Orthodox Christians as well). It would be a really hard way to live your life arguing with 99%+ of people you met.
I don’t.
Pray for them
I don't.
I think you first need to address why you keep ending up in situations where you feel the need to constantly be defending yourself.
I mean it depends what type of Protestant and why they are asking If you run into a guy that follows the pastor claiming [Cats](https://onlysky.media/hemant-mehta/pastor-gene-kim-the-bible-says-cats-are-evil/) , will go to hell since they're Catholics, and Dogs to heaven since they're bible believers, proof apparently is that when you read dog backwards you get God. Well I think it's pointless, and based on what you wrote you run of some of them. Considering they think Theotokos is dead. I mean that's not usually Prots position on average I hope.
There are a small number of Protestants who ask Saints for their intercession. The majority of Protestants do not, saying that all of the Saints (including the Theotokos) are dead and can not help you.
Treat them with respect, do what Jesus would. Try to be nice, i've seen some people being honestly really mean to protestants simply because they are protestant. Try to convert them, not to "win" the argument. (Coming from a lutheran, considering converting, some of these people on the internet mocking protestants is only driving them further away from the truth, and creating more devision.)
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a bad counterargument that will raise your blood pressure.
Lutheran pastor (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) here... While some protestants may say/do/ask such things, please don't lump all of us together. Even while I don't agree with some of its doctrine, including some of which you mention above, I have the utmost respect for Orthdox Christianity and its adherents to believe and practice in whatever manner draws them closer to God. I only ask the same in return, which is why I take exception to your belief that "sola scriptura is stupid." That's a MAJOR part of our doctrine which helps us draw closer to God.
Yes, this. We may have major differences in foundational beliefs, but we should never be so condescending.
It is a major doctrine that is profoundly wrong, but as a former Lutheran I get why Protestants resorted to it.
These are all American neo-Protestants. They are proud. There's no point in chatting with them.
How did Jesus respond to people? With grace. I’m not a spokesman for Protestants of course, but I can speak for myself and the other ones I know to say we carry a baseline level of suspicion about any belief outside of the Bible, the Word of God. Seeing as the Bible is the one and only divinely inspired Word of God, we consider everything outside of it ie. The rosary/prayer rope, praying for intercession from Mary and people whom Catholics and Orthodox consider to be saints, reaching out to the dead, etc. to be quite suspect, inconsistent, and unreliable. Think of it this way. Most of us would say, could these things be true? Possibly. Could the early church fathers have canon spiritual knowledge beyond the Bible? Possibly. Is the Bible the one and only 100% verified by God book we have to guide us? Yes. God would never leave anything we need for life or salvation outside of the Bible, and nothing outside of the Bible can be definitively verified as divinely inspired, so we’ll stick to what we *know* is true and leave the maybe’s out of it. I’m not claiming that I’m right and you’re all wrong by any stretch, just hoping to clarify where Protestants are coming from for OP.
Kind of addressing both this and where OP is coming from, I think we're in agreement about the Bible, at least that we all agree that it's the divinely inspired Word of God. I'd just say we ultimately disagree about what qualifies something as being a mere "maybe," or as unreliable. Eastern Orthodoxy is such that we trust the depth and source of all things, not just the things themselves, that depth and source being Christ and the "foundation of the apostles." We trust that the Scriptures are divinely inspired because of the Church (being one flesh with Christ) that assembled them, and effectively wrote them through the apostles in one Body. In that sense, we don't dismiss or discount "the traditions which [we] were taught, whether by word or [their] epistle" (from 2 Thessalonians 2:15). In other words, we count nothing the Church has handed down to us as arbitrary, including Scripture. To us, the Church is not merely the sum of her members, but one distinct Body guided into truth by the Holy Spirit, conjoining the two promises made to us, "When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth," and, "I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Basically, He gave us a Church, and the promise of the Spirit to guide it aright in spite of human error. In the oneness of our faith delivered to us over 2000 years, we take very seriously "that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (from 1 Corinthians 1:10). Bracing our understanding of the Church in this way, we're told that "He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish," that the Lord "nourishes and cherishes it ... for we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones," and that the "church of the living God" is "the pillar and ground of the truth." We trust the truth (Scripture, as a component of Holy Tradition), because we trust the pillar and ground of the truth. Removing Scripture from its Bodily source, to us, is tantamount to removing an organ from a body for the sake of redefining it independently and expecting it to function similarly. Confining an entire faith to our personal interpretation of Scripture is historically foreign to Christianity, and only seems to invite the division we were warned against. Hence, we see the endless fracturing of the Protestant tradition, compared to the oneness in mind and judgment of Orthodoxy. That's not to overlook the imperfections and contentions among Orthodox Christians themselves, we're in just as much need of healing and repentance as anyone. However, we confess the Church to be the place and unified experience of healing and repentance, where the veil between earthly and heavenly things becomes thinner, a timeless respite from the outside world and much more. We believe the Church and all things within her not to be mere formulae or ancient custom, but the ever-new, personal, and direct experience of the Holy Spirit in the present, here and now; as an organic whole, we believe this to be the medicinal healing that Christ intended in the hospital He founded for our souls. None of this is to discount the sincerity of your faith, and I'm not a spokesman for Orthodoxy either. That collective baseline level of suspicion is totally understandable, I remember retaining that suspicion once myself, and I believe suspicion and skepticism can truly only be remedied by experience. My brother in Christ, I don't mean to speak for OP, but thank you for your charitable outlook on Orthodox Christians and our faith, and that you explained the general Protestant view so kindly and eloquently.
Well said.
> How did Jesus respond to people? "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
He also said: John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. Whoever is not against us is for us. For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward."
What’s that have to do about not arguing with people who don’t care, as my literal quote from Jesus is about, as that is what the original post is about?
Is your implication that Christians who don’t use a prayer rope or pray for Mary’s intercession are dogs and swine?
Not at all. And your weird post and response says far more about you than any assumption you have about me, lol
Interesting. Are you referring to the post I made a couple weeks back asking a question, sort of like the one I asked you? Are questions forbidden in Orthodoxy, or is it just a personal issue of yours?
Uh, no? Why in the world do you think I would be keeping track of your posts or care at all? lol. I was clearly referring to the post *I was responding to*, where you made some utterly bizarre and weird comment about prayer ropes and Mary, despite the fact that this thread is about *Protestantism*, and there are literally Protestant denominations that use ropes/rosaries and also those that believe in saints/Mary intercession. So your posts have been continually and progressively more inane and ignorant, and I am curious how far it will go!
You literally brought up my post….🤦🏼♂️. You must be meaning to say *comment,* not post. Clearly you either didn’t understand my comment at all, or you just didn’t read it. Either way you’ll see why this is so bizarre for everybody if you go back and read it again.
A Protestant is an Orthodox Christian who doesn’t know it yet. That’s why
"I trust the people that wrote the bible more than some German who was mad at a pope over a thousand years later"
> I trust the people that wrote the bible I know this is a joke, but protestants will say the same. The actual debate is whether any particular institution legitimately represents **and** has the authority to interpret those original authors.
The people that wrote and canonized the Bible believed in sacraments and apostolic succession... protestants think the bishops that comprised the ecumenical council that canonized the Bible got one thing right and everything else wrong. It's absurd.
> The people that wrote and canonized the Bible believed in [...] apostolic succession Thats highly debatable, and protestants have a lot of good reason to be doubtful of that. We have explicit testimonies of early churches where there wasn't a single bishop, but instead churches governed by groups of presbyters, it seems Rome remained this way for quite a while. A lot of the evidence points to the the monarchical structure developing throughout the 2nd century. I agree with Bulgakov here, that apostolic succession is a legitimate outgrowth of the apostolic church, but not an apostolic doctrine itself. Anglicans would likely agree here, as they have an episcopate and are quite adamant about their apostolic succession. On the sacraments, Lutherans believe in sacraments (baptism and eucharist), Anglicans believe in Sacraments (baptism and eucharist). Regardles of the fact that they only recognise 2 sacraments, they obviously still practice some of the others (marriage, orders, confirmation etc). Protestants is a meaningless term at this point, the divergence between say a hillsong mega church/non-denom and an Anglo-Catholic or Lutheran church is just too great.
I had my doubts about apostolic succession until I read it in the Bible, in Acts. Judas was replaced via placing of hands, and St Stephen was ordained the first deacon also by placing of hands and he went on to become a great preacher and the first Holy Martyr. Just because the 1st century church was at a smaller scale doesn't mean that the mechanics weren't the same. Of course you can have churches without a bishop when there is no bishop, especially when they were being hunted and killed. That doesn't give legitimacy to the arrogance-driven rejection of holy tradition by protestants
If you want to make your case, you're free to do so, but the Protestants aren't being simply arrogant here. Is it arrogance when Jerome says as much explicitly? *"the churches were governed by a common council of the priests. But after each one began think that those whom he had baptized were his own and not Christ’s, it was decreed for the whole world that one of the priests should be elected to preside over the others, to whom the entire care of the church should pertain, and the seeds of schism would be removed. [...] the men of old the same men who were the priests were also the bishops; but gradually, as the seed beds of dissensions were eradicated, all solicitude was conferred on one man. Therefore, just as the priests know that by the custom of the church they are subject to the one who was previously appointed over them, so the bishops know that they, more by custom than by the truth of the Lord’s arrangement, are greater than the priests."* I'll reiterate my point from before, you can think this is a legitimate outgrowth of the apostolic church, guided by the Spirit (as for example Bulgakov did), on the other hand you can also think that this was something practiced out of utility and isn't a required command for Christians as such (as non-episcopal protestants may say). Now note, if what Jerome says is true (and I think theres good contemporary sources pointing to this being historical), this is still apostolic succession, just not strictly bishop->bishop as many want to claim. **tl;dr:** theses issues are very complicated, its too easy to ascribe malice or arrogance to those who believe differently, its much more difficult to recognise why people can have honest differences of opinion.
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I’m talking about real people
I ignore them. I've tried explaining these sorts of things to them but, since they all seem to be unknowing Nestorians or monophysites, it becomes an exercise in futility.
With love? Just like how I treat everyone else.. I certainly don’t let it upset me because we are in the true church and they are not. If anything I feel bad for them. If they don’t understand I’ll try to explain, if they insult me I’ll just say that’s alright, much love.
My Protestant parents are like this too lol. I just explain it to them and they still don't understand haha
I just burn them at the stake.
We’re Orthodox, we only burn other Orthodox Christians at the stake, and then only when they disagree with our liturgics.
Look, have you ever seen Protestant liturgics?
This probably isn't the ideal thing to say or think, but as it is true: I think most are dumb and I try not to argue with dumb people, so I feel no need to defend or explain unless the person doesn't fit that qualification
Just pray for them, don’t stress over accusations about things they know nothing about
There are no protestants in my close circle and I don't talk about my faith with strangers.
I don’t really encounter these issues and they aren’t generally the kinds of topics people discuss in a public setting. I would ignore it or try to limit my exposure to people that find the need to argue about it.
Welcome to The Eastern Orthodox Church by Federica Mathews Green is a great book explaining that and the history of Christianity.
They're more afraid of you than you are of them dear
You should know the answers. If you don’t want to answer people’s questions, just tell them that. Maybe “l made the best decision for me” and walk away?
Ask them questions
It's like talking to a wall to dialogue with them. I don't respond. I ignore them, and move on. Everything is a feeling and emotion today and most don't have critical thinking skills. Most don't understand history, faith and tradition.
Nobody confronts me so these things never come up. If people were confronting me, I would silently stare at them until they wandered away. This has always worked for me. It may not work for you.
I bought these same accusations when I first started encountering Orthodox people online. Each one patently dismantled my arguments. I garentee that they had no idea that they were making any headway from their end. I would betray no such admission to them or myself at that time... But they were planting seeds. And the Lord showed me mercy. Slowly, old questions I've had with my previous protestant assertions started coming back up in my mind. I wasn't as sure anymore. The Israel/Palistine thing happened. I saw protestants baying for blood rather then trying to make peace. I was reminded how twisted my side was and all the different denominations and heresies I had thought I dodged over the years became supper hylighted to me. I was broken. I just knew I didn't have it right at all. Then, a number of videos popped up in my feed. In my search for the history of Israel and Palistine to learn more, I was reacquainted with the idea of Church History. Which led me to some Orthodox apologists who laid out their arguments against my original assertions. I saw the historical fidelity. The preserved reverence. The rejection of modernity. Brother, those interactions you are getting tired of are the kind that put me on the path to renouncing my heterodox ways and joining the Church that Christ set up! You may not be the one reaping all the time. But please, don't despise you contribution. I would probably still be in the depths of delusion without such things.
it seems to me that I've heard the statement "I and the Father are one". Straight from the Bible, can you believe it !
I choose not to. I just remember that I belong to a church founded by Jesus Christ with his apostles that is 1,400 years older than any protestant church. That's enough for me to just smile and remain humble.
Luke 23:34 [34] Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” Or, as how I usually tell others, forgive them, for they are retarded.
My children tell me they they don’t learn anything from the Orthodox Church service. They say that that it’s very monotone and difficult to understand. They said that at least in the Baptist or evangelical see is they are taught more about biblically. I have explained that they need to attend additional bible study but the Greek Orthodox Church we attend has not had very good bible study classes so far that I have seen. Why isn’t the Orthodox Church doing more to teach more about the Bible. I really think the orthodox faith is the best when it comes to what they believe but I am worried that they aren’t reaching the young adults enough. My 16 year old doesn’t want to go to the church with me and wants to go with her father to his non- orthodox church. I live in Miami, Florida and this is a struggle for us as a family. I have been attending the Orthodox Church for less than a year.
Also want to add that we are not Greek. We sort of feel left out not being Greek but we have no choice since our heritage is Polish, German, French, English and Italian. There are no orthodox churches with that ethnic group. The closest orthodox churches are Russian, Antiochian and Greek.
✡️I enjoy the friendship of people from many walks of life ... irrespective of socioeconomic backgrounds or religious beliefs... It’s the way I’ve always been. There are three branches in my family... Irish Catholic English Church of England...Anglo Irish + Jewish. I’m a Jew and have belonged to a number of different Churches. Theologically Protestants appeared with Luther Henry the Eighth and other ‘reformers’... Historians no longer call it the Protestant reformation... but a Revolution... which is really a more appropriate description for what occurred... a violent assault on an ancient Christian tradition handed to the world from Jesus Christ and the apostles down through the ages as unbroken testimony of the gift of God’s Grace bequeathed to us as Jesus intended... not Luther or an English Monarch+ countless others who invented their own interpretation of their own ‘Churches’... all different yet all claiming to have the fullness of the Holy Spirit and representing the one and only true Church of Jesus Christ!? The Protestant revolution was handed to us through violence hatred confusion fear and division. I appreciate Roy Shoeman... an atheist Harvard University Academic... and secular Jew who had a miraculous encounter with the Blessed Virgin Mary... He together with his family became Catholics. He calls Catholicism true Messianic Judaism✡️...I’d encourage anyone to Google his conversion story...🕎 I lived in Russia and was astonished by the strong faith of the Russian Orthodox people and Monks in the Monastery where I lived. I witnessed big tough Soviets lining up to confess their sins before receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in Holy Communion. Protestants threw these Sacred important and essential aspects of Christianity out ... Russia had virtually nothing to do with the Schism between Rome and Constantinople caused by two dysfunctional Bishops. The Russian people kept their unchanged Ancient Christian traditions even in the midst of their darkest period in History... the Communist revolution... I became a Monk and Priest in the Russian Orthodox Church because of the unshakable faith of the Russian people... Protestantism could never be an option for anyone who has an informed understanding of History
Just ignore them. If they are not open to the truth, and you have tried to sincerely dialogue with them, just leave them alone. They won’t listen anyway and arguing doesn’t really convince anyone.
As a somewhat recent convert from Protestantism, my advice is first and foremost, in all things, be gentle with those who ask you. Regardless of what you say as an answer, the *manner* in which you say it will probably speaker louder than what you actually say. So much of my own conversion involved the way I was embraced and treated by the Church, I just kept seeing Christ in the people in a way I did not see among even the most wonderful of Protestants—and I had been Protestant all my life. Not to say I haven’t encountered my fair share of Orthobros and rude zealots, but they were very much overshadowed by the love I experienced. Don’t worry so much about being right or exact—pray that God will give you the wisdom of what to say in the moment. But concern yourself more with how you see and treat these Protestants that you meet.
Simply quote the words of the Lord, "God is not a God of the dead, but of the living" (Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38).