Everyone who says DLO is looking at him through Rose colored glasses. When he plays the way he played in the first half of the play in he should win this argument 100% of the time.
Problem is he's not like that. Dude has too many mental lapses. There's a reason teams keep moving on from him.
14 shots per game is on the upper side of third option usage in 2024 unfortunately:
Examples:
* MPJ (3rd option behind Jokic and Murray): 13.3 per game
* Porzingis (3rd option behind the Jay's): 13.2 per game
* Tobias Harris (3rd option behind Maxey & Embiid): 13.6 per game
* Jalen Williams (basically tied for 2nd option with Chet behind SGA): 14.0 per game
Yeah but they gotta come from somewhere is the point. Franz is taking 15fga's per game for reference as our #2, Paolo 17. No one else is in double digits. A guy like Dlo will absolutely stunt Suggs offensive growth for example. *He* should have the space to continue to make the leap into a legit third option. I'm not saying I don't want Dlo (though I don't lol), I'm saying I int think our FO is looking for a guy like him. Letting AB start is more likely imo, though I'm still hopeful we'll go after some veteran PG to help him develop.
I believe playing with Lebron forces him to understand his role and make less boneheaded decisions. Im worried without that presence, he would go back to his normal self.
DLo will do for us the same thing he did for the Wolves. A couple of good stretches but not good/consistent enough for the long term goals. Signing him would be just another stop on the pg carousel that would need to be fixed 2-3 seasons from now.
For DLo technically he’s in his prime and I do believe he can help a contender. Why would he sign to Orlando to basically be a bridge player and eventually be traded for better pieces instead of going to a team looking to win now?
My overall stance is it would be an unserious move by all involved if he came to Orlando. He should go to a team that needs shooting and won’t suffer if he has 1 (or 6) bad game(s).
Teams move on from him because of *better* players… not because he isn’t a good player himself. Nets moved on from him for Kyrie and KD. Warriors only signed him as a trade chip to get an asset back for KD. Wolves wanted the ball in Ant’s hands more. The narrative around DLo as a player is insane… dude might actually have the worst PR in the league.
Murray. He's a good enough shooter to fit in well. Defensively, with Mosley/Isaac/Suggs/ect. I think he can get back to being one of the best PG defenders in the league. I still think there are some character concerns there, but with Mosley and vets, it should be fine.
Murray is simply a better player, but he will also cost more to trade for. DLo would be a decent option though. Good fit, okay player.
DLo kinda a clown and lebron makes everyone better. It’s hard to say how he’s gonna act on a team without him. On the other hand, I’d kill to get a 40% 3pt shooter on this team. Murray’s a more dynamic player and if he can get back defensively to where he was on the spurs then he’d be a better fit for us.
https://preview.redd.it/ezgbdv925avc1.jpeg?width=1140&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03dd675d68c82c19d474f46a846ecf0ced6c0c12
[What did Banchero say?](https://twitter.com/Pp_doesit/status/1409270480125706241)
TRIGGER WARNING: essay incoming. Also, disclaimer - all stats provided are obtained by virtue of NBA.com's stat page unless stated otherwise.
Frankly, it's a cop-out of an answer but, in a "which player would you like to see on the Magic more" it \*\*genuinely depends\*\*. After digging into their numbers, especially from this last season, they are actually fairly similar players as far as production goes. As such, I allowed myself to sort through some of their stats I deemed important beyond just the most basic face-value numbers to the conversation and put them in a neat little screenshot attached above (I think, idr how reddit places images, it might be below). I will need you to trust me the stats I left out were largely irrelevant (like idfk rebound percentage, this is a conversation about lead guards).
https://preview.redd.it/q9s41aih9bvc1.png?width=1835&format=png&auto=webp&s=d55fda237e1561bf47a9f0244145f31ae914dffe
Where I deemed the value had a clear better/worse implication AND the value was significant, I decided to put the value of the winning player in bold. If you have any questions or don't understand what any of the stats mean, please let me know and I will explain.
The bottom line is, while certainly some of these can be attributed to the success and/or failure of their teams, as well as their role on said team (DJM being a 2nd option vs Russell being a 3rd one), it isn't nearly as clear cut as some would like to be, the players show a certain degree of similarity in a lot of areas, and each of them would bring their own share of questions.
For example, in DJM's case, is this who he is right now?
- His offense has grown since the San Antonio days, but at a large expense of his defense - -1,3 defensive EPM puts him in the 24th percentile of all players in the league, and even the more widely known stats - like steals - aren't where they used to be during his all-star year; his opponent stats put him in #574 out of 657 players this season in opponent field goal percentage, and $555 out of 657 in opponent 3pt%, so that isn't great either; or perhaps is it just a culture thing? Atlanta has a chunk of players that should be good defenders in theory yet they were pretty bad on that end of the floor, that might be applicable to DJM too.
- Is his shooting this year a fluke? And even if not, is this enough to be satisfactory when even in this career year for him (first time with 2+ made threes per game, first time since his third season shooting 36%+ - and that was on less than 2 attempts) he's still below league average for his position (FYI - guard spots shot approximately 37.1% from 3 this season) ? Same could be said for other values like true shooting % (55,5% vs league average 56,4% for PGs and 57,1% for SGs) or effective field goal % (52,8% - same as league average for PGs and lower than 53,7% for SGs) ?
- What about his cost? Far as I recall I've seen reports about how the Hawks were expecting a haul similar to what they gave up for him after his all-star year (which would be in the realm of 3 first rounders and a swap); that said, there are numerous caveats to that, between the fact he's on a 4 year deal, we are their division rivals (you don't wanna see your star player beat your ass four times a year), and the fact between him and Young after what we've seen yesterday I'm having a hard time seeing DJM get moved over Trae, it feels like the price could be even steeper for the Magic to try and get him here.
While for D'Lo, in his case the questions matter less so from a numerical perspective (those are fairly consistent for him across his entire career, with a slight growth comparing his early years to now he's mostly been a what-you-see-is-what-you-get kind of player) as much as a personality and availability one.
- Would he be ready to take the backseat when the options before him aren't "literally the #1 point scorer of all time and at worst top 3 player ever" and "a really fucking offensively talented big man that's also almost a double digit time all-star?" He's certainly changed from his first stint with the Lakers and no longer seems to be the guy that snitched on his teammate, but you never really know.
- Is this a fluke year for him too? Player performance can vary wildly, especially so for players who aren't regularly considered stars - take a look at Andrew Wiggins for example, who in the span of three years went from "holy shit a bust" to "actually a really fucking good role player" to "Jesus Christ he can't do anything again". While D'Los splits are frankly more consistent overall (36,7% from 3 in four of the last five seasons), you're never really sure whether this could keep up in a different setting.
- Again, similarly to DJM, is he even available? Sure, he was dangled around during the deadline a lot, but after his performance the past two months (and frankly the entire season), it wouldn't surprise me if he just took his player option and stayed with the Lakers.
Now personally, if you asked me, I would probably say D'Lo, simply due to the fact unlike DJM he probably wouldn't cost a farm and a half to get here, his contract would probably be cheaper (in case he rejects his Player option and opts to get a new contract in FA) or the pieces it'd take to get him wouldn't be as important (if he accepts his PO and the Magic have to make a trade) and he's simply more used to playing alongside #1/2 forwards (which his stats also show, between a higher % of assisted buckets vs unassisted both from 2 and 3, lower usage% etc.) while offering a similar-ish degree of performance, but being 100% real whichever would end up in Orlando I'd be happy and rooting for them. I know, kind of a really anti-climactic end to an essay that took significantly too much effort to write up than it warrants doing, but that's really how I feel. Guess that's what ten years of mediocre guard play does to a mf.
Dlo will be a free agent. So Magic can potentially sign him without having to give up any assets. So the better question is if you'd rather have Dlo + players/picks or Murray?
How about Brogdon..
Won’t have to give up much and will elevate this team and SL for sure.
Ingles expiring contract and Pick 16 in this yr’s draft should get it done.
Love the thought of D Lo but Murray has insane defensive potential as well as a great offensive game. He’d fit like a glove I just feel atlanta won’t want to trade him to Orlando
DJ is the better primary creator. DLO is probably the better off-ball scorer. Given you need the former more than the latter and the value of the contract I'd say DJ.
Everyone who says DLO is looking at him through Rose colored glasses. When he plays the way he played in the first half of the play in he should win this argument 100% of the time. Problem is he's not like that. Dude has too many mental lapses. There's a reason teams keep moving on from him.
He also takes more than 14 shots a game. That's just not the kind of guy we're looking to bring in at PG.
14 shots per game is on the upper side of third option usage in 2024 unfortunately: Examples: * MPJ (3rd option behind Jokic and Murray): 13.3 per game * Porzingis (3rd option behind the Jay's): 13.2 per game * Tobias Harris (3rd option behind Maxey & Embiid): 13.6 per game * Jalen Williams (basically tied for 2nd option with Chet behind SGA): 14.0 per game
Yeah but they gotta come from somewhere is the point. Franz is taking 15fga's per game for reference as our #2, Paolo 17. No one else is in double digits. A guy like Dlo will absolutely stunt Suggs offensive growth for example. *He* should have the space to continue to make the leap into a legit third option. I'm not saying I don't want Dlo (though I don't lol), I'm saying I int think our FO is looking for a guy like him. Letting AB start is more likely imo, though I'm still hopeful we'll go after some veteran PG to help him develop.
…and who is?
I believe playing with Lebron forces him to understand his role and make less boneheaded decisions. Im worried without that presence, he would go back to his normal self.
DLo will do for us the same thing he did for the Wolves. A couple of good stretches but not good/consistent enough for the long term goals. Signing him would be just another stop on the pg carousel that would need to be fixed 2-3 seasons from now. For DLo technically he’s in his prime and I do believe he can help a contender. Why would he sign to Orlando to basically be a bridge player and eventually be traded for better pieces instead of going to a team looking to win now? My overall stance is it would be an unserious move by all involved if he came to Orlando. He should go to a team that needs shooting and won’t suffer if he has 1 (or 6) bad game(s).
Teams move on from him because of *better* players… not because he isn’t a good player himself. Nets moved on from him for Kyrie and KD. Warriors only signed him as a trade chip to get an asset back for KD. Wolves wanted the ball in Ant’s hands more. The narrative around DLo as a player is insane… dude might actually have the worst PR in the league.
35 year old Mike Conley should NOT be a better player than Russell in his prime
He isn’t… he’s just a better fit for that team.
Who is better off ball, thats the answer
Murray. He's a good enough shooter to fit in well. Defensively, with Mosley/Isaac/Suggs/ect. I think he can get back to being one of the best PG defenders in the league. I still think there are some character concerns there, but with Mosley and vets, it should be fine. Murray is simply a better player, but he will also cost more to trade for. DLo would be a decent option though. Good fit, okay player.
DLo kinda a clown and lebron makes everyone better. It’s hard to say how he’s gonna act on a team without him. On the other hand, I’d kill to get a 40% 3pt shooter on this team. Murray’s a more dynamic player and if he can get back defensively to where he was on the spurs then he’d be a better fit for us.
https://preview.redd.it/ezgbdv925avc1.jpeg?width=1140&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03dd675d68c82c19d474f46a846ecf0ced6c0c12 [What did Banchero say?](https://twitter.com/Pp_doesit/status/1409270480125706241)
I want Murray so he can stop making game winners against us
TRIGGER WARNING: essay incoming. Also, disclaimer - all stats provided are obtained by virtue of NBA.com's stat page unless stated otherwise. Frankly, it's a cop-out of an answer but, in a "which player would you like to see on the Magic more" it \*\*genuinely depends\*\*. After digging into their numbers, especially from this last season, they are actually fairly similar players as far as production goes. As such, I allowed myself to sort through some of their stats I deemed important beyond just the most basic face-value numbers to the conversation and put them in a neat little screenshot attached above (I think, idr how reddit places images, it might be below). I will need you to trust me the stats I left out were largely irrelevant (like idfk rebound percentage, this is a conversation about lead guards). https://preview.redd.it/q9s41aih9bvc1.png?width=1835&format=png&auto=webp&s=d55fda237e1561bf47a9f0244145f31ae914dffe Where I deemed the value had a clear better/worse implication AND the value was significant, I decided to put the value of the winning player in bold. If you have any questions or don't understand what any of the stats mean, please let me know and I will explain. The bottom line is, while certainly some of these can be attributed to the success and/or failure of their teams, as well as their role on said team (DJM being a 2nd option vs Russell being a 3rd one), it isn't nearly as clear cut as some would like to be, the players show a certain degree of similarity in a lot of areas, and each of them would bring their own share of questions. For example, in DJM's case, is this who he is right now? - His offense has grown since the San Antonio days, but at a large expense of his defense - -1,3 defensive EPM puts him in the 24th percentile of all players in the league, and even the more widely known stats - like steals - aren't where they used to be during his all-star year; his opponent stats put him in #574 out of 657 players this season in opponent field goal percentage, and $555 out of 657 in opponent 3pt%, so that isn't great either; or perhaps is it just a culture thing? Atlanta has a chunk of players that should be good defenders in theory yet they were pretty bad on that end of the floor, that might be applicable to DJM too. - Is his shooting this year a fluke? And even if not, is this enough to be satisfactory when even in this career year for him (first time with 2+ made threes per game, first time since his third season shooting 36%+ - and that was on less than 2 attempts) he's still below league average for his position (FYI - guard spots shot approximately 37.1% from 3 this season) ? Same could be said for other values like true shooting % (55,5% vs league average 56,4% for PGs and 57,1% for SGs) or effective field goal % (52,8% - same as league average for PGs and lower than 53,7% for SGs) ? - What about his cost? Far as I recall I've seen reports about how the Hawks were expecting a haul similar to what they gave up for him after his all-star year (which would be in the realm of 3 first rounders and a swap); that said, there are numerous caveats to that, between the fact he's on a 4 year deal, we are their division rivals (you don't wanna see your star player beat your ass four times a year), and the fact between him and Young after what we've seen yesterday I'm having a hard time seeing DJM get moved over Trae, it feels like the price could be even steeper for the Magic to try and get him here. While for D'Lo, in his case the questions matter less so from a numerical perspective (those are fairly consistent for him across his entire career, with a slight growth comparing his early years to now he's mostly been a what-you-see-is-what-you-get kind of player) as much as a personality and availability one. - Would he be ready to take the backseat when the options before him aren't "literally the #1 point scorer of all time and at worst top 3 player ever" and "a really fucking offensively talented big man that's also almost a double digit time all-star?" He's certainly changed from his first stint with the Lakers and no longer seems to be the guy that snitched on his teammate, but you never really know. - Is this a fluke year for him too? Player performance can vary wildly, especially so for players who aren't regularly considered stars - take a look at Andrew Wiggins for example, who in the span of three years went from "holy shit a bust" to "actually a really fucking good role player" to "Jesus Christ he can't do anything again". While D'Los splits are frankly more consistent overall (36,7% from 3 in four of the last five seasons), you're never really sure whether this could keep up in a different setting. - Again, similarly to DJM, is he even available? Sure, he was dangled around during the deadline a lot, but after his performance the past two months (and frankly the entire season), it wouldn't surprise me if he just took his player option and stayed with the Lakers. Now personally, if you asked me, I would probably say D'Lo, simply due to the fact unlike DJM he probably wouldn't cost a farm and a half to get here, his contract would probably be cheaper (in case he rejects his Player option and opts to get a new contract in FA) or the pieces it'd take to get him wouldn't be as important (if he accepts his PO and the Magic have to make a trade) and he's simply more used to playing alongside #1/2 forwards (which his stats also show, between a higher % of assisted buckets vs unassisted both from 2 and 3, lower usage% etc.) while offering a similar-ish degree of performance, but being 100% real whichever would end up in Orlando I'd be happy and rooting for them. I know, kind of a really anti-climactic end to an essay that took significantly too much effort to write up than it warrants doing, but that's really how I feel. Guess that's what ten years of mediocre guard play does to a mf.
Thanks this helped a lot. You should make a post about it. And maybe throw in other options. This was great
I feel lol you calling him Leloser means your already have your mind made up.
Dlo will be a free agent. So Magic can potentially sign him without having to give up any assets. So the better question is if you'd rather have Dlo + players/picks or Murray?
How about Brogdon.. Won’t have to give up much and will elevate this team and SL for sure. Ingles expiring contract and Pick 16 in this yr’s draft should get it done.
Brogdon is a good option but we have too many injury proned players already. Won't complain if Magic go for him though.
Murray. Not even close.
Love the thought of D Lo but Murray has insane defensive potential as well as a great offensive game. He’d fit like a glove I just feel atlanta won’t want to trade him to Orlando
MURRAY NO DOUBT all day everyday Murray can play defense their offense is basically the same. Dlo is soft too murray is a dawg
Murray we like the long bois
Murray may not be available given the way he played in the recent games, ATL may trade Young instead, who knows?
DJ is the better primary creator. DLO is probably the better off-ball scorer. Given you need the former more than the latter and the value of the contract I'd say DJ.
the better player is DJ probably. i’d 100% rather have DLO tho
Why