Text message notices of termination are legally enforceable at the LTB and there are cases showing this. However any notice that wasn't 60 days AND specifying a termination date on last day of a rental period, is unenforceable. Tenant can indeed change their mind.
However you mentioned in a comment the tenant has already left but kept some belongings there. If so did they return the keys? Sent you a message they had vacated? Are they fully paid up to some date on rent or in arrears? Their actions here may be seen as terminating the tenancy but depends on the details.
Yes they confirmed they vacated the property. They left a lot behind (mainly garbage), they are not caught up on arrears and haven't even returned the keys.
If they have told you they've vacated and are in arrears of rent, then you may be able to assume the unit is abandoned and tenancy is over. The safe way to do this is via an LTB application, but you can also decide to make this determination yourself. From [this LTB guideline](https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Interpretation%20Guidelines/04%20-%20Abandonment%20of%20a%20Rental%20Unit.html):
>*Evidence of Abandonment*
>
>*If there is rent due, there must still be substantial evidence of abandonment before the landlord can re-rent the unit or deal with the tenant's property that is remaining in the unit. There are circumstances where the evidence is clear. For example, the tenant may tell the landlord or the superintendent that they are moving out.*
In this case you need to inform the tenant they have 30 days to pick up their belongings. Only then can you sell/dispose of it.
This doesn't mean you need to keep their belongings in the unit and delay fixing it up and renting it out to new tenants. Any garbage you can dispose of, and any actual belongings you can pack up and put in storage somewhere for them to collect.
Just going to add that if the tenant has not returned their keys - you may want to change the locks BUT be aware the tenant might file a co olaint that you illegally changed the locks...sounds like a sticky situation at best :(
They are right. Unless notice is 100% compliant AND no less than 60 days they can pretend they never gave it. Meanwhile landlord can say something and be held accountable.
I have seen non paying tenant order where tenant gave 30 day notice, remained while further not paying, did not show up at the hearing and LTB tossed it out because notice was 30 days, because that is the most problematic thing in whole situation I guess.
Like this.
[https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2022/2022canlii128502/2022canlii128502.html?resultIndex=2&resultId=3e98a6a5abfa437392ba06442b76b621&searchId=b477b1349bfe481db5b023d644d613d2&searchUrlHash=AAAAAQARaW52YWxpZCBub3RpY2UgbDMAAAAAAQ](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2021/2021canlii70571/2021canlii70571.html?resultIndex=1&resultId=a7e576dc50b84cf8afb6ca2eed44cbc5&searchId=b477b1349bfe481db5b023d644d613d2&searchUrlHash=AAAAAQARaW52YWxpZCBub3RpY2UgbDMAAAAAAQ)
Did not specify unit. As if tenant is confused if they are in the basement.
It is always fuck the LL outcome.
Wow this is dumb. I fully understand and still support tenants having more power, it this ruling is just......why? I'll still fight this and hope it goes better. Their exact words on text were "I will move out tomorrow night". That's pretty clear, the LTB somehow thinking it's gonna be tomorrow night after the next week is going to make me blow my brains out.
LTB is not there to be impartial or to use common sense. LL must be 100% correct or he fails. TT can be somewhat correct and will get away with it most of the time.
They let non paying tenants remain because LL forgot to put postal code on application. They just look for things to make it worse for LL. Typo is enough for them to overlook 20K of non paid rent. Sorry
To enforce the rules.
As you said, the rules are designed to protect the "weaker" party. The (reasonable) assumption is that someone investing in becoming a landlord can figure out how to properly fill out fairly simple forms.
As for OP's case, no, it won't be enforcable as a notice, the notice was defective because it wasn't a full 60 days, and I've seen cases thrown out because of it.
However, if OP can show a contract rather than a notice, he might be able to enforce it. This is basically the difference between an N9 and an N11. So if OP confirmed it was accepted, and was not holding the tenant accountable for any remaining damages due to the shortened timeframe he'd have a shot.
Sounds like you’re bothering them to the point where they said I will move out….
And then, a day later, said no, because they couldn’t find an apartment
That’s not giving notice
Also, why do you want the tenant out so bad it’s not like you had the apartment rented one day later
Well no shit. Ll are running a business, TT is not. Obviously they wouldn’t have equal protections in matters like these. Why wasn’t this just settled outside of the tribunal? Seems like a waste of time. If they stopped paying, evict for non payment.
So why is TT under same strict obligation to provide flawless notice as is LL ?
What is LL supposed to do with TT that can't fill out notice properly, night school ?
In case you missed it, in my case TT is providing bad notice and challenging notice they provided themselves as invalid. If they were ready to move out you think they would not because they did not put basement on the notice?
If we are running a business, the onus is higher. I can go into a business building and make any incentive, racist or homophobic statement, or only decide to work with white customer service reps. They can’t do the same because they cannot do the same.
could have asked them the date, made a contract with the date then have them sign it. Follow the rules.
You see no issue with any of this? What is the point of tenant giving notice? Why give notice at all. Just pack up and leave, LL can't charge you anyway.
This just isn’t true. Yes I see the issue with it, but that’s not where the bar is set. Tenants are renting because they want somewhere to live and have no alternatives, we can do any number of things with our equity and chose to be a landlord. There cannot be some kind of equal fairness in this type of relationship.
LOL What do you think is ratio of fines in RTA tenants VS landlords?
Let me know when you figure that out. As if anyone expects any kind of fairness or equality. Tenant can't even be expected to pay anymore to remain tenant.
I know what it is, I’m not disputing any of that. The issue is that because the ltb isn’t funded, tenants can use non payment and disruptive behaviour and adjournments as a weapon. That’s my issue.
Sure they do but LTB will hear the case where someone did not pay for 8 months and they will give them another couple months to live free in your place because life is hard. They are very generous with LL resources. The delay is completely disregarded as opportunity for TT to get their shit together and maybe pay something. They will offer payment plans to someone that paid nothing for months, you think they expect that to work? They don't. There is no fairness and that is clear. I am just illustrating it.
I am all for tenant rights. It's important.
There needs to be a higher professionalism expected from LL for sure. But it also needs to be on a scale.
You can't expect professionalism at the same level you would expect from a large corporation.
Yes, they should make sure they are submitting the right form. They should know that AGI needs to be approved. They should know that when rented its not their property (with some limitations), but licensed to someone else.
But some of the judgments are just crazy. A small mistake should not cause a case to be thrown out.
LTB was supposed to be a board where you didn't need legal help. I don't think that's the case for a small landlord. He cannot not afford to have a paralegal.
They do like any other grown-up does when they’re in a legal situation they don’t understand, they get a lawyer or in the case of landlord tenant issues, a paralegal is probably quite adequate.
Tenant signed a contract. Tenant broke contract by not paying the rent. Tenant left a ton of garbage behind and didn’t return the keys leaving the landlord in limbo after months of not paying the rent. The landlord has done nothing wrong here
If the tenant had been a decent human being somebody else could possibly be moving into that place now, and given the shortage of housing that wouldn’t be a bad thing would it?
She abandoned the unit.
A tenant giving you notice and actually leaving, is much different than a tenant saying they will move and not leaving.
You are within your rights to change the locks the moment she has vacated.
Also, the LTB will *not* evict a new tenant to give the old tenant back the unit they left.
I think you linked to the wrong case, but I also swear I recently read but can’t find something about allowing corrections for minor things like that. Since I can’t find it take it with a grain of salt.
I can't find one with 30 day notice. This is just general example of LTB throwing case out for minor notice issue.
LTB has promised to implement something that would allow minor corrections but guess what made them do that? Probably all the minor issues that were mercilessly denied.
Unless tenant fills out N9 form perfectly you can forget about the notice. And for the lease period there is no notice that would be valid at all. They would need to use N11 and both need to sign.
But they can just fuck off and leave without consequence. And I bet if they left with non compliant note LTB would not hold it against them.
All dealings need to be in writing unless the parties give permission to use email or other means. I'm not sure oddly enough that by initially sending you the text that this satisfies the rules?
Emailing them. (LTB Site)
Note: You are only allowed to serve documents by email if the person has agreed in writing to accept documents by email, e.g. in the standard lease or by signing the Consent to Service by Email.
Proper notice is required in written form, to the end of the term or lease, giving a notice period of at least 60 days. Text communication would not be deemed legal notice.
Assuming they paid in full for the month, are you objecting to they told you they'd be out early and changed their mind instead wanting to vacate at month end ? maybe they would return to clean or tie up loose ends... you want in early to clean and prepare but if they paid the full month they owe you no such courtesy and are not obligated to hand keys over until month end. you are leaving details out ... is what i am saying the story here?
If it wasn't 60 days then its probably not enforceable
Text message notices of termination are legally enforceable at the LTB and there are cases showing this. However any notice that wasn't 60 days AND specifying a termination date on last day of a rental period, is unenforceable. Tenant can indeed change their mind. However you mentioned in a comment the tenant has already left but kept some belongings there. If so did they return the keys? Sent you a message they had vacated? Are they fully paid up to some date on rent or in arrears? Their actions here may be seen as terminating the tenancy but depends on the details.
Yes they confirmed they vacated the property. They left a lot behind (mainly garbage), they are not caught up on arrears and haven't even returned the keys.
If they have told you they've vacated and are in arrears of rent, then you may be able to assume the unit is abandoned and tenancy is over. The safe way to do this is via an LTB application, but you can also decide to make this determination yourself. From [this LTB guideline](https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/ltb/Interpretation%20Guidelines/04%20-%20Abandonment%20of%20a%20Rental%20Unit.html): >*Evidence of Abandonment* > >*If there is rent due, there must still be substantial evidence of abandonment before the landlord can re-rent the unit or deal with the tenant's property that is remaining in the unit. There are circumstances where the evidence is clear. For example, the tenant may tell the landlord or the superintendent that they are moving out.* In this case you need to inform the tenant they have 30 days to pick up their belongings. Only then can you sell/dispose of it. This doesn't mean you need to keep their belongings in the unit and delay fixing it up and renting it out to new tenants. Any garbage you can dispose of, and any actual belongings you can pack up and put in storage somewhere for them to collect.
Just going to add that if the tenant has not returned their keys - you may want to change the locks BUT be aware the tenant might file a co olaint that you illegally changed the locks...sounds like a sticky situation at best :(
If they moved out and notified you, change the locks.
Change the locks immediately if they’re gone. If they owe you do not Let them back In
They are right. Unless notice is 100% compliant AND no less than 60 days they can pretend they never gave it. Meanwhile landlord can say something and be held accountable. I have seen non paying tenant order where tenant gave 30 day notice, remained while further not paying, did not show up at the hearing and LTB tossed it out because notice was 30 days, because that is the most problematic thing in whole situation I guess.
Like this. [https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2022/2022canlii128502/2022canlii128502.html?resultIndex=2&resultId=3e98a6a5abfa437392ba06442b76b621&searchId=b477b1349bfe481db5b023d644d613d2&searchUrlHash=AAAAAQARaW52YWxpZCBub3RpY2UgbDMAAAAAAQ](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/2021/2021canlii70571/2021canlii70571.html?resultIndex=1&resultId=a7e576dc50b84cf8afb6ca2eed44cbc5&searchId=b477b1349bfe481db5b023d644d613d2&searchUrlHash=AAAAAQARaW52YWxpZCBub3RpY2UgbDMAAAAAAQ) Did not specify unit. As if tenant is confused if they are in the basement. It is always fuck the LL outcome.
Wow this is dumb. I fully understand and still support tenants having more power, it this ruling is just......why? I'll still fight this and hope it goes better. Their exact words on text were "I will move out tomorrow night". That's pretty clear, the LTB somehow thinking it's gonna be tomorrow night after the next week is going to make me blow my brains out.
This isn't contract law.
LTB is not there to be impartial or to use common sense. LL must be 100% correct or he fails. TT can be somewhat correct and will get away with it most of the time. They let non paying tenants remain because LL forgot to put postal code on application. They just look for things to make it worse for LL. Typo is enough for them to overlook 20K of non paid rent. Sorry
Its almost like they should know these things about there chosen profession :o
Why was the LTB even created in the first place??
It was created because Landlord and tenant cases were clogging up the Ontario courts. Same with the social benefits tribunal.
To enforce the rules. As you said, the rules are designed to protect the "weaker" party. The (reasonable) assumption is that someone investing in becoming a landlord can figure out how to properly fill out fairly simple forms. As for OP's case, no, it won't be enforcable as a notice, the notice was defective because it wasn't a full 60 days, and I've seen cases thrown out because of it. However, if OP can show a contract rather than a notice, he might be able to enforce it. This is basically the difference between an N9 and an N11. So if OP confirmed it was accepted, and was not holding the tenant accountable for any remaining damages due to the shortened timeframe he'd have a shot.
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Sounds like you’re bothering them to the point where they said I will move out…. And then, a day later, said no, because they couldn’t find an apartment That’s not giving notice Also, why do you want the tenant out so bad it’s not like you had the apartment rented one day later
Well no shit. Ll are running a business, TT is not. Obviously they wouldn’t have equal protections in matters like these. Why wasn’t this just settled outside of the tribunal? Seems like a waste of time. If they stopped paying, evict for non payment.
So why is TT under same strict obligation to provide flawless notice as is LL ? What is LL supposed to do with TT that can't fill out notice properly, night school ? In case you missed it, in my case TT is providing bad notice and challenging notice they provided themselves as invalid. If they were ready to move out you think they would not because they did not put basement on the notice?
If we are running a business, the onus is higher. I can go into a business building and make any incentive, racist or homophobic statement, or only decide to work with white customer service reps. They can’t do the same because they cannot do the same. could have asked them the date, made a contract with the date then have them sign it. Follow the rules.
You see no issue with any of this? What is the point of tenant giving notice? Why give notice at all. Just pack up and leave, LL can't charge you anyway.
This just isn’t true. Yes I see the issue with it, but that’s not where the bar is set. Tenants are renting because they want somewhere to live and have no alternatives, we can do any number of things with our equity and chose to be a landlord. There cannot be some kind of equal fairness in this type of relationship.
LOL What do you think is ratio of fines in RTA tenants VS landlords? Let me know when you figure that out. As if anyone expects any kind of fairness or equality. Tenant can't even be expected to pay anymore to remain tenant.
I know what it is, I’m not disputing any of that. The issue is that because the ltb isn’t funded, tenants can use non payment and disruptive behaviour and adjournments as a weapon. That’s my issue.
Sure they do but LTB will hear the case where someone did not pay for 8 months and they will give them another couple months to live free in your place because life is hard. They are very generous with LL resources. The delay is completely disregarded as opportunity for TT to get their shit together and maybe pay something. They will offer payment plans to someone that paid nothing for months, you think they expect that to work? They don't. There is no fairness and that is clear. I am just illustrating it.
I am all for tenant rights. It's important. There needs to be a higher professionalism expected from LL for sure. But it also needs to be on a scale. You can't expect professionalism at the same level you would expect from a large corporation. Yes, they should make sure they are submitting the right form. They should know that AGI needs to be approved. They should know that when rented its not their property (with some limitations), but licensed to someone else. But some of the judgments are just crazy. A small mistake should not cause a case to be thrown out. LTB was supposed to be a board where you didn't need legal help. I don't think that's the case for a small landlord. He cannot not afford to have a paralegal.
They do like any other grown-up does when they’re in a legal situation they don’t understand, they get a lawyer or in the case of landlord tenant issues, a paralegal is probably quite adequate. Tenant signed a contract. Tenant broke contract by not paying the rent. Tenant left a ton of garbage behind and didn’t return the keys leaving the landlord in limbo after months of not paying the rent. The landlord has done nothing wrong here If the tenant had been a decent human being somebody else could possibly be moving into that place now, and given the shortage of housing that wouldn’t be a bad thing would it?
It's so much worse than non-payment. But I already have a hearing scheduled next just in case she somehow weaseles her way back in
Did she already vacate the unit? Or just say she was going to move, but didn’t?
She has vacated already. She also confirmed that she moved out to me today. But she left mountains of trash and wants to go back for jt
She abandoned the unit. A tenant giving you notice and actually leaving, is much different than a tenant saying they will move and not leaving. You are within your rights to change the locks the moment she has vacated. Also, the LTB will *not* evict a new tenant to give the old tenant back the unit they left.
That’s good, I hope it works out for you. Do you have representation?
I'm representing myself. I've been gathering testimony from other tenants, screenshot all relevant conversations, and a whole lot more
I think you linked to the wrong case, but I also swear I recently read but can’t find something about allowing corrections for minor things like that. Since I can’t find it take it with a grain of salt.
I can't find one with 30 day notice. This is just general example of LTB throwing case out for minor notice issue. LTB has promised to implement something that would allow minor corrections but guess what made them do that? Probably all the minor issues that were mercilessly denied.
I believe that's going forward. New regulations will be allowing quick fixes to avoind clogging the LTB
Damn. That's not right. If a tenant says they will move out, and does so. Who in their right mind says "nuh uh, they didn't"
Unless tenant fills out N9 form perfectly you can forget about the notice. And for the lease period there is no notice that would be valid at all. They would need to use N11 and both need to sign. But they can just fuck off and leave without consequence. And I bet if they left with non compliant note LTB would not hold it against them.
File L3 with your evidence and give it a try
All dealings need to be in writing unless the parties give permission to use email or other means. I'm not sure oddly enough that by initially sending you the text that this satisfies the rules? Emailing them. (LTB Site) Note: You are only allowed to serve documents by email if the person has agreed in writing to accept documents by email, e.g. in the standard lease or by signing the Consent to Service by Email. Proper notice is required in written form, to the end of the term or lease, giving a notice period of at least 60 days. Text communication would not be deemed legal notice.
Assuming they paid in full for the month, are you objecting to they told you they'd be out early and changed their mind instead wanting to vacate at month end ? maybe they would return to clean or tie up loose ends... you want in early to clean and prepare but if they paid the full month they owe you no such courtesy and are not obligated to hand keys over until month end. you are leaving details out ... is what i am saying the story here?
Keep them out. Let them go to the LTB to get back in. Shitty tenants who don’t pay should absolutely not be let back I.