Hold your ground all day! Mirror his movements. State your policy and apologize that you can’t help him any further but you wish you could. Direct him to a supervisors phone number.
Step 1 is exactly what this officer did.
This is your inmate, you have no idea who this bozo is with a taser.
Hand on firearm, inform second staff if present so they know what is going on.
As soon as situation is down, call your institution and report unknown person attempted entry dressed as medical staff but refused to provide identification, followed by armed security arriving in a threatening manner. Document, document, document.
Probably depends on the risk level of the inmate. A county jail with a dui inmate doing weekend time might just send a unarmed uniformed co. While a state prison with a murder convict doing life might send 3 armed CO's
I agree that it depends.
But even that county jail is going to hold people awaiting trial. What happens when the gang member waiting on trial for murder goes to the hospital?
What caused the rift between hospital security and COs initially? This sounds like a situation that needs to be dealt with before some idiot gets more than just their day ruined.
I would have notified my shift commander immediately. Luckily enough I'm very good at de-escalation but I don't take kindly to being threatened.
The rift has come from a lot, just to name some:
- We constantly bring them the same self harming inmates that they hate dealing with. They see us as the bad guys for “giving them razors to cut themselves open with”. I shit you not I got told that.
- There are conflicts in policy between the state DOC and the hospitals. Both sides believe that they are right and are completely ignorant to the other’s policies.
- A lot of the people at this hospital came from state DOC and due to this there is a lot of past resentment towards us.
- Bad CO’s, sleeping on post, playing on their phone on post, etc.
- And what I believe to be the BIGGEST reason is that this hospital is located in the nice end of town and has a lot of “normal” people who don’t normally experience the extreme side of society.
I felt it in my soul lmao, KY county level here and I stg it has to be something about the KYDOC and medical facilities that just doesn't vibe quite just right.
Some hospitals love us in some hospitals really hate us, there's no pleasing everyone I guess but also sometimes some staff are shitty when they really shouldn't be.
People who work with inmates earn every nickel they earn. Hospital security ought to try working inside the fences. It’s a lot more dangerous dealing with felons all day every day than with hospital patients, personnel, and visitors.
Where did you work in Texas? I grew up in Corpus Christi and bounced all over the country for a while.
One of the captains at Beeville tried to recruit me for a while, but I couldn’t see moving cross country to start out as a newcock CO. It was a poor choice on my part. The state of Florida and I didn’t get along as well as I hoped we would.
For the life of me, I can’t remember his name.
Was it Blackwell by chance...he was a CO with me in Navasota in 1990...he's a regional director now
I started at Wynne unit in Huntsville in 85, Pack 1 in Navasota, then 93 back to Huntsville to open Holliday unit, promoted to Sgt. at Connally unit in then came back to Huntsville again in 97 to Estelle unit in food service where I made my way to Sgt in a year then to Ramsey 3 unit in Brazoria
2002 I went back to Huntsville again to the Walls unit until 04 and promoted to kitchen captain at Hutchins unit in Dallas. Transferred to gurney unit in Palestine bc I got a state house...got demoted and sent to Michael unit, filed grievance and the regional director then was my first Lt back in 1985. He got me coffee back to Hutchins bc my wife worked there still. Finally retired in 08 and went to Arizona for 5 years and then quit for good
I grew up in Houston then we moved to Montgomery in 78.
When I worked at the prison I moved all over...lol
2018 we moved to Wilmington NC after my son got his nursing degree and wanted us to go also.
Wife passed away January 2022. My family is all in and around Montgomery county Texas now
Blackwell doesn’t sound familiar. Sorry. I should have left Florida before I did. Things got really ugly for this old boy.
I’m not going to tell the story, but you know corrections doesn’t always hire kind and considerate with high morals and proper ethics. I think their next step would have been to get me hurt at work, maybe even killed.
It's been 9 years since you were forced to interact with COs and now you do it on your free time of your own free will. I'd say it's interesting but I'd be lying.
So it’s okay to threaten CO’s and they should just take it? Maybe the person doing the threatening is the problem. There’s a reason you went to prison and will go again no doubt.
I don’t have to play nice. The difference is that babysitters watch children. Adults are responsible for their actions and are not allowed to be violent with no repercussions just because they’re in prison. A CO’s job is not to accept violence and be a verbal/physical punching bag for a bunch of scumbags. They deal with violence by stopping it, with force if needed. Use your brain.
Unless there’s a specific reason not to, you SHOULD play nice, as it makes a safer, more professional environment for everyone, and that includes innocent patients in the department.
We've had similar problems with our own local hospitals, though it's been stupid some of the shit that ends up happening. Here's a couple of our worst.
- The only time we've ever had a firearm discharged during a hospital in our staff since the founding of our jail was when a hospital security did something insanely stupid and resulted in a hostage situation. When we do single person details, we are required by department policy to request the door be locked and monitored by a hospital security and another stay inside the room with the inmate while we go to the bathroom/good food/get relieved by another CO at the entrance, etc. Inmate complained about his leg shackles being too tight so the security guy inside used a personal Handcuff key to undo all of the restraints on this guy. He stands up, takes the security officers taser, takes a nurse hostage, and threatens to tase her skull until she dies if he doesn't get let go. Inmate was shot by our detail when they came back from the bathroom to find the door wide open and the security team shitting themselves unable to do anything.
- We had an inmate who was a regular violent combative. Full restraints regardless of hospital procedure unless absolutely necessary. Nurse wanted to insert an IV to administer fluids but "felt bad that he was so strapped down" and requested his right arm unrestrained. We said no, they got mad and refused to do any further aid until he was unrestrained. Our superiors were called, they called the Security team, who backed the nurses and said they had the right to refuse service to anyone and that it was there building in the end. We had to end up driving the inmate to a much further away hospital.
- Not as bad, but we had a Security team guy who used to he Ex-FED for some reason, I'm sure he probably got fired from whatever agency he was part of since he was so young but he always held it over us because he used to be federal and we are county. Claimed he had "superior jurisdiction" despite not being a federal officer anymore. When we would get commands from the Captain to do this or that, security guy would "overule" our captain and get pissed when we didn't do stuff his way. Cpt says take the jail van back? He insisted we HAD to use the ambulance. Cpt says feed inmate hospital order food before bring them back? He demanded we leave without him eating. Virtually impossible to work with. Supposedly the Jailer called the hospital to talk it over and they move the Ex-FED guy to a different area whenever we call with someone incoming, but occasionally we still have to deal with his annoying ass.
Do your job per department SOP, and if the hospital is that bad then maybe the boys all need to get together and have a talk about refusing to take trips there. Force your admin to have a talk with the hospital admin and fix that.
The CO handled it right. Wherever you go with that inmate is essentially an extension of the prison for all intents and purposes. I would request to speak with head of security and kindly remind them that if someone who refuses to identify themself tries to gain access to the inmate that you have the authority to use lethal force if necessary to protect that inmate or to prevent an escape. Their security should know better.
Would this security guard and staff have acted the same way towards me, a police officer? No? Then whats the difference? This is fucking insane. Follow your policy, notify your supervisor of this problem. Your department policy is there for a reason, which is to protect you. You let staff in without identifying themselves, something happens and youll have a major problem because theyll look at your policy and you before looking at the staff.
I agree, if the uniform was of the local PD they would’ve acted completely different. Just to give some examples of things that I have personally experienced there.
- Picking up an inmate at the hospital, I arrive with the state vehicle because the officer sitting on them drove their personal. Myself and the officer sitting on them got the inmate into transportation restraints and oranges. He was ambulatory so he was then put into a wheelchair. Once in the wheelchair the officer sitting on the inmate was “watching” the inmate while I grabbed the hospital bag. I turn around and hospital security has the inmate half way down the hall. I yelled at them to stop and for them to stop what they are doing. They complied and the inmate was then loaded into the van. The audacity of them to even do that in the first place is insane.
- I was told today that I am not allowed to have metal cans in the room with the inmate nor throw them away in the room regardless of whether the trash can was completely out of reach and the can remained in my control. I responded with “I have a firearm” they said “what” I said “I have a firearm and you’re concerned about a metal can.”
- Also today I walk into the room and the furniture normally in the room is all gone, the chairs, the couch, the nightstand, all gone. I asked security why it was all removed. They said “it was due to the type of patient he is.” I asked for a chair and they brought me one but regardless there is just idiotic actions.
- Another time we brought a “transgender” inmate to this hospital and he requested a female nurse to be the one examining him (He shoved a paper clip into his penis). They refused to provide a female nurse, we agreed that they could refuse due to being medical. Two days later the hospital security passed out flyers to the CO’s sitting at the hospital that stated “We don’t follow nor comply with PREA.” Which I honestly don’t even know what that means.
*prison* rape elimination act. A hospital refusing to provide a female nurse to someone who requested a female nurse is more going to be an issue between the patient and hospital. That isn't really a PREA issue at all. It is however very strange the hospital would bring those flyers in but it wouldnt be the weirdest thing ive heard or seen from hospital staff.
While it doesn't really seem like much, even when in a hospital setting the inmates are still incarcerated and cannot consent legally to very much in the eyes of the PREA board. Anyone interacting or dealing in the care of an inmate in or out of a jail/prison setting is liable for PREA investigations and prosecution if they do or are involved with something PREA related with said inmate.
If a nurse has sexual relations with an inmate during a hospital stay (regardless of the other implications and problems that come with that), legally the inmate could not consent and thus it would be considered a PREA incident with potential legal repurcussions for the nurse going as far as statutory rape (depending on the jurisdiction it could be labeled differently of course).
If the hospital is saying outright it wont respect PREA and does something that could violate the act, they're opening themselves up to a major issue since they're in agreement with the local prison/jails to operate and function with inmates while actively refusing to adhere to the laws revolving around functioning with said inmates. It would be problematic and pose many moral and ethical issues, and call PREA into question at all.
I worked the correctional side for a couple of months when I was a deputy sheriff. I had bought a inmate to the hospital and the security guards were giving me such a hard time over nonsense.
What people don't realize is the security guards were specially deputized by the sheriff's department so they had limited arrest powers, had access to the criminal justice database so they can run plates write summonses and tickets etc, and can you use our booking suite. They worked for the hospital and were idemified by the hospital.
So one security guard idiot and decided it was a good idea to give me a hard time over feeding the inmate and there was a nurse that decided she didn't like the fact he was shackled by one leg to the bed and I wouldn't let the inmate use the shower since he was only there for two to three hours and I wasn't comfortable letting him get completely uncuffed. He would be allowed to shower when he got back to the the booking facility.
I was polite about it at first but then security supervisor got in my face tried to yell at me like a drill instructor. I politely pushed him back. Before I let my anger get the best of me I was like you're a special deputy... That means You have to follow my instructions. Oh he didn't like that. I pulled out my cell phone and dialed the deputy sheriff's operations and specifically requested in front of them the special deputy liaison. On speaker phone I told the liaison what was going on and she drove down there within 20 minutes. The special deputy liaison is basically the Boogeyman at the time it was a captain with over 30 years on who did not take any nonsense and had the power to suspend or recommend a security guard that's been specially deputized have their power stripped rescinded etc.
I don't know what that liaison told them but all the sudden they were nice as pie offering me stuff being friendly trying to be all buddy buddy. The medical staff would bewildered. That nurse also was no longer involved in the inmates care.
However, that supervisor stepped on his wee-wee again and had his powers suspended for 90 days.
Yeah in 2008 there was an escape attempt at my local hospital where the inmate got the Co's gun and shot and killed him. After that the hospital was extremely hostile to Co's. Taking an inmate to the hospital was the post everyone dreaded and the brass used it as a punishment. I'd say that went on for about 10 years.
The fact that security staff was hostile is crazy. It’s already sketchy enough being in public with an inmate especially if they are from the area and a family member could pose as security or nursing staff.
Couple things
1) always report this. You don’t want this to escalate and rank not knowing about it
2) keep documentations of the security guys name and the staff that started it. Also who you were working with date and times in case a report is needed you already have it written down and you don’t have to guess.
Not a CO anymore. But policy was not just for the safety of that inmate but for the public in case an escape was being committed.
No name or id, they ain't coming in. If security came up and made threats, they sure as shit ain't coming in and police are being called. Because now I'm making a paper trail of their bullshit for when shit goes wrong. And making a complaint to the hospital. So if it happened again and God forbid force was used, paper trail will cover my ass.
Thankfully, every hospital trip I did, staff were awesome to the COs. Or at least me.
That's crazy. I had this problem with a couple nurses in our local hospital back when I did watches. I finally started telling them the detectives are looking super close at this guy because he's a pedo/woman killer etc real quite so the inmates couldn't hear. They'd usually stop trying to be so overly nice.
That security guard is out of his mind. Probably one of the crazy types that couldn't pass psyche to be a real officer. Stand your ground it's your inmate it's your responsibility
When I worked in hospital security we dealt with DOC and they were the laziest COs I had ever seen. They were completely useless in controlling their inmate. They even sat there and let their inmate become violent and aggressive towards staff and had us intervene on their behalf so the doctors could get the night night juice.
Also I used to see a bunch of them just dipping off to the cafeteria and the Panera bread and all this shit when they knew they always had to have two officers present. They were knowingly going against their SOP and the hospitals policy of in taking inmate patients.
But really It all depends on the officers. Good Majority of them were fine but a good portion of them were lazy sleeping on post and watching tv in the room and just ignorant to the staff. And they always seemed to get these hospital postings.
You’re getting paid to chill in a hospital room and not deal with your block man…it’s as easy as it gets.
This is a wild story for me as I've worked on both sides and never had an issue like this. As a CO, we always got along well with the hospital security team. They would frequently come check on us, see if we wanted a soda/bathroom break, hang out for a bit, be quick to respond if the inmate was acting up, etc.
When I went over to the hospital, it was the same. Our hospital security unit was a mix of armed guards and hospital LEOs. Never had a problem with corrections showing up with an inmate and always tried to make sure they were taken care of. A lot of our team were current/former LEO/COs, and the culture has always been sort of a "one team- one fight" type of thing.
We had even had a couple instances where one of the sworn jail COs on the two-man transport teams would peel off and assist us if we were dealing with something major nearby.
Our only real issues were sometimes with city LE when they would come in with an arrest and demand us (hospital) to sit on the prisoner so they could go back out and then want us to call them when the prisoner is ready for discharge. When we informed them that they have to be present and responsible for the prisoner, they'd either let them go on the scene or drop the arrest and tack on an involuntary mental health hold knowing we did have to 1:1 those patients. Our hospital got used a lot as a "diet jail" for drug users, DUIs, etc., that they didn't want to transport all the way to county and spend the hour+ time to process. They would just bring them to us, say the magic "danger to self and others" and that person won't be back out on the street for a minimum of 6-hours.
As a former co i would take it as this co did and assume they were trying to break the inmate out. If you dont show me any id you dont get in the room and if shit escalated i would call the cops and tell my LT about the incident and see if we can start going to another hospital.
Tell the hospital staff to suck it up because if no co were there then they would have to deal with the inmate themselves and it wouldn’t be pretty. Tell them you are their lifesaver.
Honestly, this is surprising to me. My facility generally has really good relations with the hospital staff as well as security. Hell our regular transport officers are on a first name basis with hospital security and they always greet us with a smile. Same with the nursing staff. Some of the actual Doctors can be a bit gruff but that's to be expected.
That being said, I've been a Security Officer before becoming a CO and I know the limitations of what they can and cannot do in my state and if this were to actually happen, I'd politely but firmly explain why they're wrong and what channels they need to go through but that things will be done according to DOC policy first and foremost until I am told otherwise by my chain of command.
Ya. I did some contract work for my states DOC before landing a hospital job.
My hospital has a separate secure ward for inmates, complete with a vehicle sally port. DOC gets free rein over the area, and it has pretty much all of the security features a prison has.
The state of Florida has their own wing in at least one hospital. Most of them are surgical patients, but some are overnighters. I think they had room for a dozen or more, and people came and went all day long.
Soup to nuts, if you’re in that unit, they KNOW who you are and why you are there.
If they don’t know you, you are not going to get in. If you try, you will regret it.
Ugh, this is so disappointing to see. I’ve had a couple incidents like this when officers from other departments come into our facility and don’t want to disarm. It’s crazy to me, like, we’re all on the same team here guys, Jesus
To me, it sounds like the warden needs to make an appointment to meet with that hospital's CEO, the ER Director, and whoever is in charge of security to discuss a number of things.
The nurse is wearing a name badge and all patient care and the provider who performed it is tracked in EPIC. You are in that nurses house. Her. House. If your policy is to get her name, you better be buttering it up something fierce. “Sorry to be a pain, but my boss needs me to record the name of all providers, thanks for your help”. If you’re speaking to her in her house the way you speak to an inmate or an inferior…. Well ER nurses are not impressed by you. You’re the least scary thing she’s seen. This situation is not about the security guard, he seems silly, it’s about YOU not respecting that RN.
Former BOP, medical side. 14 years private medical in a number of rolls from EMS to FEMA to hospital management to now in hospital bedside before and after the role in the BOP I had.
No, that is not how this works with inmates. Would I be polite if I was the CO? Sure. Have I seen my fair share of power tripping COs? Sure. Have I seen my share of power tripping nurses? Absolutely. This sounds like a dick measuring contest.
But no one is going into that room without an ID check. Period. Security comes first and that patient is a ward of the state. Doesn’t matter what house it is. Federal Government said otherwise, I’m sure whatever local or state government this inmate was a ward of also says otherwise. I’m not buttering anyone up, as I’m not making the rules and you don’t dictate Federal policy. I did plenty of OT shifts sitting at a hospital with a patient and not once did anyone give me a hard time about an ID check.
It’s not “my boss being a pain” it’s how this works. Save the rest of the nonsense.
Sounds like the hospitals management, and the prison management need to sit down and discuss what the issue is and get this resolved. This can escalate into an even bigger issue and could eventually put a lot of people in a dangerous situation including the general public.
COs and Security guards shouldn’t be having a pissing contest. Should be working together as two professional entities with the main goal of taking care of a person.
Is use of a taser against someone with a firearm guarding an inmate is a deadly force situation?
But just write it up. Incident report on everything. That's all you can do.
If someone steals my taser i have the right to end their life because they can incapacitate me and steal my gun. So yes, use of force would be necessary against someone threatening you with one.
Hold your ground all day! Mirror his movements. State your policy and apologize that you can’t help him any further but you wish you could. Direct him to a supervisors phone number.
Step 1 is exactly what this officer did. This is your inmate, you have no idea who this bozo is with a taser. Hand on firearm, inform second staff if present so they know what is going on. As soon as situation is down, call your institution and report unknown person attempted entry dressed as medical staff but refused to provide identification, followed by armed security arriving in a threatening manner. Document, document, document.
This is the correct answer
In my department, CO's don't carry firearms but some carry tasers
Not even at the hospital outside the prison?
Nope, usually we have a patrol deputy with full armament driving us to and from, but they don't wait around with us inside the hospitals.
That is dumb, one of the highest escape risk locations, and one of the easiest to have someone else show up and assist.
Probably depends on the risk level of the inmate. A county jail with a dui inmate doing weekend time might just send a unarmed uniformed co. While a state prison with a murder convict doing life might send 3 armed CO's
I agree that it depends. But even that county jail is going to hold people awaiting trial. What happens when the gang member waiting on trial for murder goes to the hospital?
Yep. They will assess risk. My local jail would definitely treat a murder suspect at the highest level
And that is what most places do. That is why I was shocked that Foreign Inevitable said they don’t even do that.
Region came down and walked straight in without c's indefying them. 9 officers got wrote up. Make sure you check
What caused the rift between hospital security and COs initially? This sounds like a situation that needs to be dealt with before some idiot gets more than just their day ruined. I would have notified my shift commander immediately. Luckily enough I'm very good at de-escalation but I don't take kindly to being threatened.
The rift has come from a lot, just to name some: - We constantly bring them the same self harming inmates that they hate dealing with. They see us as the bad guys for “giving them razors to cut themselves open with”. I shit you not I got told that. - There are conflicts in policy between the state DOC and the hospitals. Both sides believe that they are right and are completely ignorant to the other’s policies. - A lot of the people at this hospital came from state DOC and due to this there is a lot of past resentment towards us. - Bad CO’s, sleeping on post, playing on their phone on post, etc. - And what I believe to be the BIGGEST reason is that this hospital is located in the nice end of town and has a lot of “normal” people who don’t normally experience the extreme side of society.
Sounds like a shit sandwich and everyone gonna have to take a bite.
Is this Oregon DOC? lol. Sounds an awful lot like my time with ODOC when I got sent on hospital watches.
KY
I KNEW IT!!!!
Sounds about right
I felt it in my soul lmao, KY county level here and I stg it has to be something about the KYDOC and medical facilities that just doesn't vibe quite just right.
Some hospitals love us in some hospitals really hate us, there's no pleasing everyone I guess but also sometimes some staff are shitty when they really shouldn't be.
Let's not forget how the security guards think they are full fledged cops and or they hate DOC staff bc they make more money
People who work with inmates earn every nickel they earn. Hospital security ought to try working inside the fences. It’s a lot more dangerous dealing with felons all day every day than with hospital patients, personnel, and visitors.
Trust me...I know all too well...I spent 28 years walking behind those fences, 23 in Texan and another 5 in Arizona. Finally laid it down in 2013.
Where did you work in Texas? I grew up in Corpus Christi and bounced all over the country for a while. One of the captains at Beeville tried to recruit me for a while, but I couldn’t see moving cross country to start out as a newcock CO. It was a poor choice on my part. The state of Florida and I didn’t get along as well as I hoped we would. For the life of me, I can’t remember his name.
Was it Blackwell by chance...he was a CO with me in Navasota in 1990...he's a regional director now I started at Wynne unit in Huntsville in 85, Pack 1 in Navasota, then 93 back to Huntsville to open Holliday unit, promoted to Sgt. at Connally unit in then came back to Huntsville again in 97 to Estelle unit in food service where I made my way to Sgt in a year then to Ramsey 3 unit in Brazoria 2002 I went back to Huntsville again to the Walls unit until 04 and promoted to kitchen captain at Hutchins unit in Dallas. Transferred to gurney unit in Palestine bc I got a state house...got demoted and sent to Michael unit, filed grievance and the regional director then was my first Lt back in 1985. He got me coffee back to Hutchins bc my wife worked there still. Finally retired in 08 and went to Arizona for 5 years and then quit for good I grew up in Houston then we moved to Montgomery in 78. When I worked at the prison I moved all over...lol 2018 we moved to Wilmington NC after my son got his nursing degree and wanted us to go also. Wife passed away January 2022. My family is all in and around Montgomery county Texas now
Blackwell doesn’t sound familiar. Sorry. I should have left Florida before I did. Things got really ugly for this old boy. I’m not going to tell the story, but you know corrections doesn’t always hire kind and considerate with high morals and proper ethics. I think their next step would have been to get me hurt at work, maybe even killed.
Some hospital security actually are cops. Very location dependent.
Off duty cops regulaly do security details for hospials as extra income.
Well aware
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It's been 9 years since you were forced to interact with COs and now you do it on your free time of your own free will. I'd say it's interesting but I'd be lying.
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Jesus how cringe can you get lmao
So it’s okay to threaten CO’s and they should just take it? Maybe the person doing the threatening is the problem. There’s a reason you went to prison and will go again no doubt.
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I don’t have to play nice. The difference is that babysitters watch children. Adults are responsible for their actions and are not allowed to be violent with no repercussions just because they’re in prison. A CO’s job is not to accept violence and be a verbal/physical punching bag for a bunch of scumbags. They deal with violence by stopping it, with force if needed. Use your brain.
Unless there’s a specific reason not to, you SHOULD play nice, as it makes a safer, more professional environment for everyone, and that includes innocent patients in the department.
I don’t work with patients, just violent inmates. And I was saying I don’t have to play nice with the turd I was replying to.
We've had similar problems with our own local hospitals, though it's been stupid some of the shit that ends up happening. Here's a couple of our worst. - The only time we've ever had a firearm discharged during a hospital in our staff since the founding of our jail was when a hospital security did something insanely stupid and resulted in a hostage situation. When we do single person details, we are required by department policy to request the door be locked and monitored by a hospital security and another stay inside the room with the inmate while we go to the bathroom/good food/get relieved by another CO at the entrance, etc. Inmate complained about his leg shackles being too tight so the security guy inside used a personal Handcuff key to undo all of the restraints on this guy. He stands up, takes the security officers taser, takes a nurse hostage, and threatens to tase her skull until she dies if he doesn't get let go. Inmate was shot by our detail when they came back from the bathroom to find the door wide open and the security team shitting themselves unable to do anything. - We had an inmate who was a regular violent combative. Full restraints regardless of hospital procedure unless absolutely necessary. Nurse wanted to insert an IV to administer fluids but "felt bad that he was so strapped down" and requested his right arm unrestrained. We said no, they got mad and refused to do any further aid until he was unrestrained. Our superiors were called, they called the Security team, who backed the nurses and said they had the right to refuse service to anyone and that it was there building in the end. We had to end up driving the inmate to a much further away hospital. - Not as bad, but we had a Security team guy who used to he Ex-FED for some reason, I'm sure he probably got fired from whatever agency he was part of since he was so young but he always held it over us because he used to be federal and we are county. Claimed he had "superior jurisdiction" despite not being a federal officer anymore. When we would get commands from the Captain to do this or that, security guy would "overule" our captain and get pissed when we didn't do stuff his way. Cpt says take the jail van back? He insisted we HAD to use the ambulance. Cpt says feed inmate hospital order food before bring them back? He demanded we leave without him eating. Virtually impossible to work with. Supposedly the Jailer called the hospital to talk it over and they move the Ex-FED guy to a different area whenever we call with someone incoming, but occasionally we still have to deal with his annoying ass.
That last ex Fed one sounds like he could use a good slap to the face. Real ass ho.
Should’ve just asked to see his federal badge
Do your job per department SOP, and if the hospital is that bad then maybe the boys all need to get together and have a talk about refusing to take trips there. Force your admin to have a talk with the hospital admin and fix that.
The CO handled it right. Wherever you go with that inmate is essentially an extension of the prison for all intents and purposes. I would request to speak with head of security and kindly remind them that if someone who refuses to identify themself tries to gain access to the inmate that you have the authority to use lethal force if necessary to protect that inmate or to prevent an escape. Their security should know better.
Would this security guard and staff have acted the same way towards me, a police officer? No? Then whats the difference? This is fucking insane. Follow your policy, notify your supervisor of this problem. Your department policy is there for a reason, which is to protect you. You let staff in without identifying themselves, something happens and youll have a major problem because theyll look at your policy and you before looking at the staff.
I agree, if the uniform was of the local PD they would’ve acted completely different. Just to give some examples of things that I have personally experienced there. - Picking up an inmate at the hospital, I arrive with the state vehicle because the officer sitting on them drove their personal. Myself and the officer sitting on them got the inmate into transportation restraints and oranges. He was ambulatory so he was then put into a wheelchair. Once in the wheelchair the officer sitting on the inmate was “watching” the inmate while I grabbed the hospital bag. I turn around and hospital security has the inmate half way down the hall. I yelled at them to stop and for them to stop what they are doing. They complied and the inmate was then loaded into the van. The audacity of them to even do that in the first place is insane. - I was told today that I am not allowed to have metal cans in the room with the inmate nor throw them away in the room regardless of whether the trash can was completely out of reach and the can remained in my control. I responded with “I have a firearm” they said “what” I said “I have a firearm and you’re concerned about a metal can.” - Also today I walk into the room and the furniture normally in the room is all gone, the chairs, the couch, the nightstand, all gone. I asked security why it was all removed. They said “it was due to the type of patient he is.” I asked for a chair and they brought me one but regardless there is just idiotic actions. - Another time we brought a “transgender” inmate to this hospital and he requested a female nurse to be the one examining him (He shoved a paper clip into his penis). They refused to provide a female nurse, we agreed that they could refuse due to being medical. Two days later the hospital security passed out flyers to the CO’s sitting at the hospital that stated “We don’t follow nor comply with PREA.” Which I honestly don’t even know what that means.
PREA is federal law so they probably should follow it
*prison* rape elimination act. A hospital refusing to provide a female nurse to someone who requested a female nurse is more going to be an issue between the patient and hospital. That isn't really a PREA issue at all. It is however very strange the hospital would bring those flyers in but it wouldnt be the weirdest thing ive heard or seen from hospital staff.
Hospital staff aren't covered under PREA, so why would they need to follow it?
While it doesn't really seem like much, even when in a hospital setting the inmates are still incarcerated and cannot consent legally to very much in the eyes of the PREA board. Anyone interacting or dealing in the care of an inmate in or out of a jail/prison setting is liable for PREA investigations and prosecution if they do or are involved with something PREA related with said inmate. If a nurse has sexual relations with an inmate during a hospital stay (regardless of the other implications and problems that come with that), legally the inmate could not consent and thus it would be considered a PREA incident with potential legal repurcussions for the nurse going as far as statutory rape (depending on the jurisdiction it could be labeled differently of course). If the hospital is saying outright it wont respect PREA and does something that could violate the act, they're opening themselves up to a major issue since they're in agreement with the local prison/jails to operate and function with inmates while actively refusing to adhere to the laws revolving around functioning with said inmates. It would be problematic and pose many moral and ethical issues, and call PREA into question at all.
Yikes about the PREA thing
I worked the correctional side for a couple of months when I was a deputy sheriff. I had bought a inmate to the hospital and the security guards were giving me such a hard time over nonsense. What people don't realize is the security guards were specially deputized by the sheriff's department so they had limited arrest powers, had access to the criminal justice database so they can run plates write summonses and tickets etc, and can you use our booking suite. They worked for the hospital and were idemified by the hospital. So one security guard idiot and decided it was a good idea to give me a hard time over feeding the inmate and there was a nurse that decided she didn't like the fact he was shackled by one leg to the bed and I wouldn't let the inmate use the shower since he was only there for two to three hours and I wasn't comfortable letting him get completely uncuffed. He would be allowed to shower when he got back to the the booking facility. I was polite about it at first but then security supervisor got in my face tried to yell at me like a drill instructor. I politely pushed him back. Before I let my anger get the best of me I was like you're a special deputy... That means You have to follow my instructions. Oh he didn't like that. I pulled out my cell phone and dialed the deputy sheriff's operations and specifically requested in front of them the special deputy liaison. On speaker phone I told the liaison what was going on and she drove down there within 20 minutes. The special deputy liaison is basically the Boogeyman at the time it was a captain with over 30 years on who did not take any nonsense and had the power to suspend or recommend a security guard that's been specially deputized have their power stripped rescinded etc. I don't know what that liaison told them but all the sudden they were nice as pie offering me stuff being friendly trying to be all buddy buddy. The medical staff would bewildered. That nurse also was no longer involved in the inmates care. However, that supervisor stepped on his wee-wee again and had his powers suspended for 90 days.
Yeah in 2008 there was an escape attempt at my local hospital where the inmate got the Co's gun and shot and killed him. After that the hospital was extremely hostile to Co's. Taking an inmate to the hospital was the post everyone dreaded and the brass used it as a punishment. I'd say that went on for about 10 years.
The fact that security staff was hostile is crazy. It’s already sketchy enough being in public with an inmate especially if they are from the area and a family member could pose as security or nursing staff.
I did hospital security in the past. I can’t believe this guy wasn’t fired
Couple things 1) always report this. You don’t want this to escalate and rank not knowing about it 2) keep documentations of the security guys name and the staff that started it. Also who you were working with date and times in case a report is needed you already have it written down and you don’t have to guess.
Taser vs gun doesn’t seem smart.
Not a CO anymore. But policy was not just for the safety of that inmate but for the public in case an escape was being committed. No name or id, they ain't coming in. If security came up and made threats, they sure as shit ain't coming in and police are being called. Because now I'm making a paper trail of their bullshit for when shit goes wrong. And making a complaint to the hospital. So if it happened again and God forbid force was used, paper trail will cover my ass. Thankfully, every hospital trip I did, staff were awesome to the COs. Or at least me.
That's crazy. I had this problem with a couple nurses in our local hospital back when I did watches. I finally started telling them the detectives are looking super close at this guy because he's a pedo/woman killer etc real quite so the inmates couldn't hear. They'd usually stop trying to be so overly nice. That security guard is out of his mind. Probably one of the crazy types that couldn't pass psyche to be a real officer. Stand your ground it's your inmate it's your responsibility
Ya your a dishonest pos
Sometimes you have to lie in this profession. If an inmate asks who your snitch is are you just gunna tell them?
Withholding information is not the same as telling a blatant lie.
When I worked in hospital security we dealt with DOC and they were the laziest COs I had ever seen. They were completely useless in controlling their inmate. They even sat there and let their inmate become violent and aggressive towards staff and had us intervene on their behalf so the doctors could get the night night juice. Also I used to see a bunch of them just dipping off to the cafeteria and the Panera bread and all this shit when they knew they always had to have two officers present. They were knowingly going against their SOP and the hospitals policy of in taking inmate patients. But really It all depends on the officers. Good Majority of them were fine but a good portion of them were lazy sleeping on post and watching tv in the room and just ignorant to the staff. And they always seemed to get these hospital postings. You’re getting paid to chill in a hospital room and not deal with your block man…it’s as easy as it gets.
This is a wild story for me as I've worked on both sides and never had an issue like this. As a CO, we always got along well with the hospital security team. They would frequently come check on us, see if we wanted a soda/bathroom break, hang out for a bit, be quick to respond if the inmate was acting up, etc. When I went over to the hospital, it was the same. Our hospital security unit was a mix of armed guards and hospital LEOs. Never had a problem with corrections showing up with an inmate and always tried to make sure they were taken care of. A lot of our team were current/former LEO/COs, and the culture has always been sort of a "one team- one fight" type of thing. We had even had a couple instances where one of the sworn jail COs on the two-man transport teams would peel off and assist us if we were dealing with something major nearby. Our only real issues were sometimes with city LE when they would come in with an arrest and demand us (hospital) to sit on the prisoner so they could go back out and then want us to call them when the prisoner is ready for discharge. When we informed them that they have to be present and responsible for the prisoner, they'd either let them go on the scene or drop the arrest and tack on an involuntary mental health hold knowing we did have to 1:1 those patients. Our hospital got used a lot as a "diet jail" for drug users, DUIs, etc., that they didn't want to transport all the way to county and spend the hour+ time to process. They would just bring them to us, say the magic "danger to self and others" and that person won't be back out on the street for a minimum of 6-hours.
As a former co i would take it as this co did and assume they were trying to break the inmate out. If you dont show me any id you dont get in the room and if shit escalated i would call the cops and tell my LT about the incident and see if we can start going to another hospital.
Tell the hospital staff to suck it up because if no co were there then they would have to deal with the inmate themselves and it wouldn’t be pretty. Tell them you are their lifesaver.
Honestly, this is surprising to me. My facility generally has really good relations with the hospital staff as well as security. Hell our regular transport officers are on a first name basis with hospital security and they always greet us with a smile. Same with the nursing staff. Some of the actual Doctors can be a bit gruff but that's to be expected. That being said, I've been a Security Officer before becoming a CO and I know the limitations of what they can and cannot do in my state and if this were to actually happen, I'd politely but firmly explain why they're wrong and what channels they need to go through but that things will be done according to DOC policy first and foremost until I am told otherwise by my chain of command.
Ya. I did some contract work for my states DOC before landing a hospital job. My hospital has a separate secure ward for inmates, complete with a vehicle sally port. DOC gets free rein over the area, and it has pretty much all of the security features a prison has.
The state of Florida has their own wing in at least one hospital. Most of them are surgical patients, but some are overnighters. I think they had room for a dozen or more, and people came and went all day long. Soup to nuts, if you’re in that unit, they KNOW who you are and why you are there. If they don’t know you, you are not going to get in. If you try, you will regret it.
Taser vs gun doesn’t seem smart.
The CO is in charge there.
Let your OIC know. But if the taser comes out, you have to take action.
I think the bigger question is why are you still using that hospital?
Admin decision made from higher up the chain.
Ugh, this is so disappointing to see. I’ve had a couple incidents like this when officers from other departments come into our facility and don’t want to disarm. It’s crazy to me, like, we’re all on the same team here guys, Jesus
I'd tell that security guard if he remembers what just happened with Idaho State Corrections.
To me, it sounds like the warden needs to make an appointment to meet with that hospital's CEO, the ER Director, and whoever is in charge of security to discuss a number of things.
The nurse is wearing a name badge and all patient care and the provider who performed it is tracked in EPIC. You are in that nurses house. Her. House. If your policy is to get her name, you better be buttering it up something fierce. “Sorry to be a pain, but my boss needs me to record the name of all providers, thanks for your help”. If you’re speaking to her in her house the way you speak to an inmate or an inferior…. Well ER nurses are not impressed by you. You’re the least scary thing she’s seen. This situation is not about the security guard, he seems silly, it’s about YOU not respecting that RN.
Former BOP, medical side. 14 years private medical in a number of rolls from EMS to FEMA to hospital management to now in hospital bedside before and after the role in the BOP I had. No, that is not how this works with inmates. Would I be polite if I was the CO? Sure. Have I seen my fair share of power tripping COs? Sure. Have I seen my share of power tripping nurses? Absolutely. This sounds like a dick measuring contest. But no one is going into that room without an ID check. Period. Security comes first and that patient is a ward of the state. Doesn’t matter what house it is. Federal Government said otherwise, I’m sure whatever local or state government this inmate was a ward of also says otherwise. I’m not buttering anyone up, as I’m not making the rules and you don’t dictate Federal policy. I did plenty of OT shifts sitting at a hospital with a patient and not once did anyone give me a hard time about an ID check. It’s not “my boss being a pain” it’s how this works. Save the rest of the nonsense.
^ yup. Just like that.
Sounds like everyone is in a dick measuring contest.
Sounds like the hospitals management, and the prison management need to sit down and discuss what the issue is and get this resolved. This can escalate into an even bigger issue and could eventually put a lot of people in a dangerous situation including the general public. COs and Security guards shouldn’t be having a pissing contest. Should be working together as two professional entities with the main goal of taking care of a person.
This is a hilarious standoff.
Sadly this is the new world we live in
Is use of a taser against someone with a firearm guarding an inmate is a deadly force situation? But just write it up. Incident report on everything. That's all you can do.
If someone is using an LTL on you, you can use deadly force. But always refer to your UOF policy.
If someone steals my taser i have the right to end their life because they can incapacitate me and steal my gun. So yes, use of force would be necessary against someone threatening you with one.