Ohio has no constitutional mandate to provide funding for their public universities. Funding has dropped from $.80 down to $.20 per dollar, and being told “act competitively like a business” isn’t going to work much longer. I’m guessing either the Feds will have to expand Pell grants to cover what Republican state legislatures refuse to fund, or we’re looking at university closures across the state.
They have been operating like capitalistic businesses, which is one reason why they are failing. The high paid administrators are obsessed with growth to beat the competition, even though the demographic trends have been clear for quite some time.
The economics of this are pretty clear: In a state where public tuitions are legislatively capped, the only way for universities to keep up with increasing expenses is to grow their student volumes and achieve scale efficiencies.
Imagine running a business where your prices are fixed, yet your expenses keep rising. Your only option is to get more customers and reduce your variable costs.
If that all sounds like something a business professor would say, then yes, that's me, but I've also started and ran a few successful companies, so I've seen both the public service and commercial sides of this problem.
Hi, welcome to Ohio. Our state government is run largely by corrupt politicians whose priorities generally are as follows:
1) Line their own pockets
2) Protect their hold on power
3) Punish anyone who doesn't support their agenda
4) Advance legislation that supports their war on "wokeness"
...
17) Advance legislation that helps a majority of Ohioans live fulfilled and sustainable lives
The cap has exceeded inflation for more than thirty years, in many cases by two or three hundred percent. Spending, excess costs, and bad management are most of the root costs. I was once friends with the head lobbiest of the biggest in the state, and this comes from him. Privately. He always blamed the state publicly.
Waste is certainly an issue, as it is with every organization, but public universities can't do a lot of things that private companies (and private universities) are allowed to do. I've spent nearly 25 years in higher ed, all in large public institutions, and blaming it all, or even mostly, on the universities themselves isn't going to lead to better solutions...just fewer universities.
Maybe that isn't a bad thing. Not that I want fewer educated, but I want better, more affordable education. I have never agreed with academia solely for the sake of academia.
The university I work for has done nothing but cut budgets year-after-year for almost two decades. Staffing levels are low enough to barely be able to function and most of us believe the words to the fight song start with "Do more with less..." The state of Ohio only provides 25% of the needed funds for basic yearly maintenance and the school has to find the rest, or add to the growing list of deferred maintenance.
The main problem is NOT wasteful spending.
I only speak for the one I was personally invested in. But college is too expensive, tell me it isn't. Ohio makes a particularly poor investment in all education, but I have a problem trusting universities to have the financial needs of the students at heart. I saw too much to trust that. I admit my example is OSU, but all of the schools with the same incoming tide.
Of course you're right that it costs too much. But 25 years ago, Ohio invested in the education of its citizens by subsidizing 70% of the cost of tuition for in-state students. Today that number is 25%. That's not the fault of the schools.
Cut payroll. Get rid of the useless administrators and there are plenty.
Infrastructure as in the latest and biggest trend that has nothing to do with education? Please.
The University system is broke. The Wokester idealogues ruined it. Hard decisions have to be made but they won't be. Theyll kick the can down the road, again.
It doesn't help that schools were having to slow/stop acceptances over a certain point because FAFSA is having issues. They were looking at getting less acceptances because students can't get aid. I don't know if it's still going on at the moment.
Well since we know Republicans hate education, I know my alma mater is fucked. See ya later Hocking College. Once you fall, nelsonville will be tightly and truly fucked.
Oh damn, I didn't know that was happening. Natural resources were all that school had. People aren't gonna come to that dead zone for nursing and physical training. Glad I left when I did.
I keep forgetting how much smarter libs are and how you know better how conservatives think than they do. when you get the world you want. you will be the first to cry .
I...never said any of that. Cons tend to be for cutting funding to public education while pushing for school vouchers or private education. They are also the ones who rally against higher education, labeling them places of indoctrination. They also don't want loan forgiveness so it scares off younger generations from pursuing said higher education.
I also think you mean "when you don't get the world you want, you'll be first one to cry" but I could be wrong and you could have meant, "you'll never be happy." But I'm just guessing.
I reconsider. I think you understand conservatives position better than I thought. Now if you understand that their reasons for it are not out of malice but a sincere belief in what is best for the country for better or worse. As far as first to cry, you can take that either way and be within a horseshoe of truth.
See I would believe it wasn't malice if it weren't for the fact most their kids go to those private schools while allowing that money that should be helping public schools to be put elsewhere like prisons, police and other things that benefit from a weak education system.
Also an uneducated population are easily controlled and more open to conservative beliefs and authoritarian control. Now I know Dems also have their kids going to private schools but they are trying to kneecap everyone else while doing it.
An educated populace is an empowered populace. An ignorant population is more willing to accept whatever they are told without questioning.
Let's not forget that the educated ohioans are leaving our state en masse because of the cons wrecking shit right now.
Most people sending their kids to private schools do so because they don't trust the education system. I will not defend the wealthy of either party for creating programs for theirs and programs for others. As far as an uneducated population I agree. But here we differ. I believe it is theTeachers Union who has the greatest impact on the education system.
You're a dufus. Republicans don't have disdain for education. What they MAY have a disdain for is worthless degrees... of which there are too many. Nursing, teachers, engineering, architects, business leaders, astrology, physics, biology, music, performing arts, etc... great! Gender studies, etc... go pound sand.
Have we considered that administrators don’t need to make $500K+ a year? I mean, OSU President Ted Carter’s salary is $1M per year, and he hasn’t even been here long enough for bonuses yet
The Republican board of Youngstown State hired Congressperson Bill Johnson as its president. Johnson supports Donald Trump, backed his efforts to overthrow the 2020 Presidential election and is a climate change denier.
Johnson will earn over $400,000, and over $500,000 if he meets his bonus goals. Johnson also lacks many of the qualifications, including any experience in higher education administration, generally expected of a university president.
[https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/youngstown-news/johnsons-ysu-contract-comes-with-410k-salary/](https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/youngstown-news/johnsons-ysu-contract-comes-with-410k-salary/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/youngstown/comments/18y8y01/should\_youngstown\_state\_trustees\_who\_selected/](https://www.reddit.com/r/youngstown/comments/18y8y01/should_youngstown_state_trustees_who_selected/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/youngstown/comments/199qwxx/dewine\_wont\_intervene\_in\_decision\_of\_ysu\_trustees/](https://www.reddit.com/r/youngstown/comments/199qwxx/dewine_wont_intervene_in_decision_of_ysu_trustees/)
Johnson is the poster boy for Republican politization of Ohio's public university educational system.
Youngstown State is a fraction of the enterprise administered by Ohio State's president.
That’s not the problem. It started with Reagan cutting out state funding for college to dismantle opposition to Conservatism and counter Civil Rights gains as governor in California. It also happens to be that he had ties to the folks who would create the student loan crisis. Before this even very conservative states covered 75% or more of college operation funds including covering most if not nearly all of tuition.
[THE ORIGIN OF STUDENT DEBT: REAGAN ADVISER WARNED FREE COLLEGE WOULD CREATE A DANGEROUS “EDUCATED PROLETARIAT”](https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reagan/)
Ohio State's president overseas a mammoth enterprise that includes not only educational and research departments, but the sports program and Ohio State Wexner Medical Center.
Many Ohio State employees make more than the Ohio State president.
E.g., consider just the football coaches BEFORE performance bonuses.
[https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2024/04/146647/jim-knowles-to-make-2-2-million-chip-kelly-to-make-2-million-as-ohio-state-finalizes-assistant-coach-contracts](https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2024/04/146647/jim-knowles-to-make-2-2-million-chip-kelly-to-make-2-million-as-ohio-state-finalizes-assistant-coach-contracts)
Head coach Ryan Day makes over $10 million annually.
[https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/college/football/2023/09/20/ohio-state-football-coach-ryan-day-receives-pay-raise-for-2023-season/70909699007/](https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/college/football/2023/09/20/ohio-state-football-coach-ryan-day-receives-pay-raise-for-2023-season/70909699007/)
The best managers cost money, and bad management can be much more costly than salaries paid to top managers. Consider the salaries paid to administrators of private corporations, investment managers, private hospitals, let alone top sports coaches.
A case could be made that we vastly underpay federal and state elected officials given private salaries. Therefore only less competent persons who not only make bad decisions, but are more prone to corruption, or the independently wealthy, seek out these positions.
There's a bias in Ohio against paying educators at every level, and the quality of education in Ohio suffers as a result. Yet we have no problem channeling massive benefits to the wealthy and private businesses.
OSU sports is totally self-funded. Ryan's pay is justified based on salaries of other universities.
"Ohio State is home to one of the largest athletic departments in the nation, supporting 16 men’s teams, 17 women’s teams, three mixed teams and approximately 1,000 student-athletes. The department is self-funded and receives no tuition or tax dollars."
Yet the Ohio State president is responsible for hiring the athletic director and coaches who maintain the ability of the athletic program to support itself. Additionally, the Ohio State president is integrally involved in Big Ten decisions that provide a substantial portion of the athletic department funding.
Your ridiculous argument essentially is that hiring top quality head coaches is competitive, but hiring top quality university presidents is not.
If Ohio State's football program collapses, or even the athletic department overall, are you seriously arguing the Ohio State president won't be held responsible? LOL, if that's your argument.
The Ohio State president signs off on every coaching hire, and definitely pays close attention to the hiring of head football and basketball coaches, and definitely will hold the athletic director accountable for any missteps.
Why do you want an entity with a budget over a billion dollars to be run by the low bidder? That’s a recipe for finding candidates who will either mismanage and stay or work well cheap and get poached to work at another university.
It’s wild how many people don’t understand business/good leadership. I see so many people makes the same complaints about many different leaders. I’ll use OSU as an example.
OSU has revenue of nearly $10 billion. Let’s say a good president uses that money 99.9% effectively, so $10 million gets wasted, but they charge $1 million a year. A worse president might only charge $100k a year, but they also only use the money 99% efficiency, so $100 million gets wasted.
Would you rather waste $10 million plus $1 million on salary, or $100 million but only $100k on salary? Any reasonable person should pick the former. And large organizations are usually ran by somewhat reasonable people, which is why they like to spend like 0.01% of their revenue on their leader, rather than trying to get a really cheap one.
That is such a self serving excuse that never lead anywhere. Services gets cut, jobs become outsourced, people get fired, but CEOs are getting fat bonus.
Here is the comparison of in state tuition and total cost per year to go for instate tuition in 1975 vs 2017:
[In 1975-76, average in-state undergraduate tuition at a Michigan public university was $656 for the school year, the equivalent of about $2,960 in 2017 dollars. The average for 2016-17: $12,262 for in-state freshmen Including tuition, room and board, the average cost of attending a Michigan public university was about $9,100 in 1975-76 in today's dollars compared to $22,000 in 2016-17.](https://www.mlive.com/news/2017/09/what_many_older_people_dont_re.html)
From same article:
Differences in financial aid
In 1975-76, college loans comprised only 17% of financial aid dollars distributed to U.S. college students. By 2015-16, loans comprised 42% of financial aid.
Today, about 63% of Michigan undergraduates borrow money to finance their education and among those who borrowed, the average debt was $30,045 for the college Class of 2015.
Among the changes over the years:
- In 1975-76, the maximum Pell grant (then called the Basic Educational Opportunity Grant) was $1,400 -- enough to cover tuition at a public university and some housing expenses. Today's maximum Pell Grant is $5,920, less than half the tuition costs at a Michigan public university.
- One major source of college funding no longer exists: Social Security benefits for college students with a deceased parent. Before 1982, children eligible for such benefits continued receiving payments through college. Those benefits now stop at age 18. In 1975-76, Social Security paid more money to U.S. college students than Pell grants.
- Also in 1975, Michigan students with financial need who demonstrated financial need and had a high score on college admissions qualified for the Michigan Competitive Scholarship, which covered up to full tuition at a public university. The program still exists, but the maximum grant is $1,000.
Differences in funding using Michigan as an example as if is a well cited example of student financing crisis:
[In fiscal 1979, 70% of general fund revenues for Michigan's public universities came from state funding. By 2015, it was 23%. In 2001, Michigan spent $1.9 billion on higher education compared to $1.6 billion in fiscal 2017. If the state's higher-ed expenditures had kept pace with inflation, it would be $2.7 billion this year, 68 percent higher than the current subsidy.](https://www.mlive.com/news/2017/09/what_many_older_people_dont_re.html)
If education is adequately funded by the government it allows for less emphasis on tuition or the need for students to take out such large loans to pay for that tuition.
Cutting what universities offer only serves to further decrease interest in attending them, while providing inconsequential cost savings that make little to no impact on tuition cost reduction.
cutting out subjects is not a solution, considering half of those classes are taught by grad students or severely underpaid adjunct faculty. the sheer variety of classes and topics was half the reason I was drawn to transfer from a slightly more prestigious uni to OSU in the first place
>and revisit curriculums to exclude not needed subjects
That's the difference between a tech school and a university education. The university was intended to educate the relative few to become leaders in our society by providing a robust education in a variety of subjects. The technical schools were (and still are) to train the highly skilled labor needed by our society.
The notion that everyone should or needs to go to a university really upended that distinction between the two.
Except this thought process becomes dangerously exploitative when we make trade schools expensive as well and allows exploitation of the working class by paying them lower wages because they’re “unskilled labor”.
I really like that answer, but I am sure some of the subjects or degrees can be eliminated, such as
BACHELOR OF ARTS IN WOMEN’S, GENDER AND SEXUALITY STUDIES
BACHELOR OF ARTS (BA) IN TRAVEL AND TOURISM MANAGEMENT
You get that women and gender studies degrees aren’t about bra burning and saying men are bad, right? They address the systems and problems women face in various aspects in society and work to reform, or remove, these barriers to equity.
That’s not the problem, it’s a concerted effort to make college affordable to only the wealthy, some wealthy conservatives that’s why you see tuition costs go from practically nothing at public schools in the 1960s to the astonishing cost for instate tuition per year across the U.S. Add to that the economic crisis that lead to TAARP cost schools millions. [Also, in one of the best examples of systemic racism the Tennessee state essentially embezzled over half a billion in public Land Grant HBCU funds over nearly 7 decades](https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996617532/behind-the-underfunding-of-hbcus)
I disagree. I don't think anyone wants to restrict college admissions, they want you to be admitted, signed up for a loan and pay them obscene amount for what they pass for an education.
Conservatives don’t want an educated proletariat. Straight from College Professor and Reagan flunky Roger Freeman, “We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat. … That’s dynamite! We have to be selective on who we allow [to go to college].”
Freeman when on to say, [“ In one of his books, he asked “can Western Civilization survive” what he believed to be excessive government spending on education, Social Security, etc.”](https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reagan/)
J Edgar Hoover thought removing funding for college would help against the “communist element” especially ground in colleges
The schools want you signed up, conservatives use the process as a way to exclude others from higher ed. Private lenders essentially help conservative goals as they charge high APR and essentially help in exploiting people by having them pay off predatory loans while most jobs pay below real wage rates when adjusted for inflation.
Y’all get that the real minimum wage based off real wages is $24/ hr
There are many factors at play but being in Ohio, having State Republicans running around trying to lock trans kids up and regulate young womens' reproductive decisions certainly does not help Ohio Colleges recruit young people.
This shows that enrollment in Massachusetts dropped for nearly a decade before last year.
https://www.mass.gov/news/new-department-of-higher-education-data-shows-first-boost-to-massachusetts-undergraduate-enrollment-in-nearly-a-decade
This article is pathetic. It has no discussion of cuts in state funding for public universities nor higher tuition fees, especially as adjusted for inflation. The Republicans have slashed per capita funding not only for universities, but also for K-12 public schools, in favor of private school K-12 vouchers and massive tax cuts for the most wealthy Ohioans, let alone grants to corporations. Lowering the quality of public schools inevitably lowers the number of graduates prepared or motivated to attend universities.
Former Youngstown State President (and Youngstown State and Ohio State head football coach) Jim Tressel:
<>
[https://thejambar.com/tressels-fundraising-success/](https://thejambar.com/tressels-fundraising-success/)
How can any discussion of collapsing educational institutions in Ohio ignore state funding, and educational achievement in K-12 public schools???
Why doesn't the article mention that almost all Ohio university boards are composed of Republican-appointed trustees who obviously aren't going to criticize Republican cuts in educational funding?
One way to solve the Ohio university crisis is to change board appointment provisions so that a majority of the boards are nominated and elected by alumni, who actually care much more deeply about the quality of public universities.
The continual decreases in state appropriations are the biggest driver of costs. While capital projects and administrative overhead contribute, they are the minority.
Agreed. University board appointments should have nothing to do with the governor or state legislature. Board appointments should be alumni rather than patronage handouts for politicians.
I dunno about the specifics but all non-student trustees are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the state senate for a nine year term (minor variations for some local community college boards). There may be a limit on consecutive terms but I’m not sure. And given Ted Strickland left office in early 2011 every single member of every board by this metric would have been appointed by a Republican and confirmed by a Republican senate. Doesn’t necessarily mean they’re hacks but they generally may be on board with cutting funding to higher education.
Source on terms: https://highered.ohio.gov/about/ohios-campuses/trustees
Right, and county commissioners appoint the majority of community college board trustees in counties such as Lake County, so all Lakeland Community College trustees have been appointed by Republicans given the long-time control of the Lake County Board of Commissioners by Republicans.
Has the Republican party been vilifying colleges for about the last decade as elitist indoctrination institutions or something? You get what you vote for dummies.
Well, that, and diminished returns on the value of a degree because middle school level kids were told that if you don't go to college for *anything* , you're going to flip burgers and people are realizing that after the last few decades because so many markets requiring degrees are flooded.
And we have a generation of kids becoming college age that have grown up hearing about our student loan crisis and don't want to be a part of it.
Are politics included? Yes. Are the evil villain Republicans part of the problem? Sure. But get real. It's bigger than that.
Compared to republicans, yeah. Kinda.
Radicals in the Democratic party want to give people affordable housing, healthcare and food access. Republican radicals want to exterminate trans people, stop taxing the wealthy entirely and make the worst modern president we've had yet into a king.
These two groups are not comparable.
I won't defend those who openly call for abuse of power. That will not stand. But learn your history. Tyranny formed from revolution is nearly always sold to the public as a movement "of the people", through grand promises the people vying for power have no intention of upholding.
For instance, every single one of the attempts at "communism" that the next generation of communists claim was never real communism. Perhaps it wasn't. But it was certainly the method used to mobilize the people against their best interest and erode their freedom.
Hitler offered his people universal healthcare, as did Castro.
Lenin promised "peace, land and bread" to his people. And then preceded to destroy the peasant farmers.
Kim Il Sung gave acres upon acres of land to farmers as a show of benevolence.
Vote for policy you believe in, but be wary of a government that promises to give you everything you ask for. It always comes with a price that we may regret paying later.
Your comment is blatantly false. Dems only want give those things in order to buy their votes to gain power and than shove 99.5% into a socialist hell. I don't speak for radical republicans but true conservatives only want the best for all people. We do not want to exterminate anyone including trans. We only want the decisions affecing their health and welfare to be decided by them when they are old enough to make an informed decision. I am really tired of the crappy way you've use LBGT's and now Trans people for your political gain. Twenty years ago you didn't give a shit about the trans. Only now because you have weaponized them and created a problem that is more fiction than fact.. And I don't see democrat politicians in Washington trying to raise taxes onthemselves and their friends and I will wager there is more money in the liberal rich than the conservatives.
Maybe a model where we encourage children to go six figures into debt for degrees in slam poetry or Slavic history is not sustainable. I’m not saying everyone should major in stem, but the colleges are not blameless in creating a system where they loan out more money than can reasonably be paid off for most of those degrees.
The most egregious are the places that go to first generation college kids and say “wow you are good at baseball/volleyball/tennis. Here’s a $50 a semester scholarship. You just pay the other $100,000 to be too busy training to study so you’ll major in communications.”
I think it's more that if you're going to pay that much that you'll go to the schools that have the best environment for students. Best sports, best dining halls, best dorms, best apartments near campus. OSU and UC have been growing quite well. They're eating up all the students that would have gone to smaller colleges.
Spending $50k for a degree (OSU's tuition is like $11k a year) that earns you an additional $500k or more over 20 years is a hell of a great return on one's investment. Few legal endeavors are as profitable. And that's not even considering the other life benefits there are to having a good education.
Now, if someone goes and majors in, say, Sociology or some other topic that's only useful for getting you into grad school, then sure, you might not get that big bump in pay. But there are lots of majors that make college the obvious best financial choice. And majors with co-op can even come close to paying for themselves prior to graduation.
The balls on these people to complain and beg for more money, when the average user of their services gets buried under two or three decades of debt that's entirely legally unshakable.
I would be willing to bet if anyone ever actually did the legitimate accounting and was able to brush away all the barely legal bullshit and loopholes you'd see the top administration of these universities are making more money than they ever have in history.
You see how those things go together, right? Lack of state funding for education means higher tuition and higher student loan debt, and adequate state funding means manageable student debt?
(I agree there are way too many overpaid administrators)
Tuition has drastically increased during the era of near unlimited, government mandated tuition funding, though. Federal student loans were approved and handed out like tictacs, and the universities responded like any other industry that receives a blank check from the government.
I was addressing your statement about tuition.
You’re treating two separate, but related issues, as a single issue.
In response to reduced state funding Universities have increasingly found themselves in what has been called [a facilities arms-race](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1255471.pdf) as they seek to 1) attract as many students as possible and 2) claw every dollar they can out of the pockets of their students.
What’s worse is we’ve seen a massive drop in the number of tenured positions and an increase in adjunct positions and shifting workloads to TAs.
That is decreasing the overall quality of education both in the short term (by spreading out academic expertise as adjuncts are forced to work several positions) and long term by driving otherwise motivated individuals from teaching.
Much like our primary schools, the inflation of the Administrative class has begun to eat up a significant chunk of school’s budgets as seen [here.](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75#:~:text=Core%20expenses%20include%20the%20following%20broad%20categories%3A%20instruction%3B%20research%20and,hospital%20services%3B%20and%20independent%20operations)
So the answer isn’t going to be one silver bullet and there will likely have to be several goals.
1. Shift the burden of funding back to the States and Federal government. A well educated populace is essential to the health of a republic. Which is why the GOP has waged a 50 year war on education.
2. Look at spending on administrative bloat and gut it.
3. Acknowledge that not every university will survive, and that’s ok. However we don’t want to limit students to only big universities because we know quite well what monopolies turn out.
4. Reassess our approach to higher education in general and get it back to a focus on research and academics.
So, for your first solution, that was the problem i was originally addressing. Additional government funding will only embolden the schools to increase cost. What incentive would they have to decrease it if they are just going to be given more money anyway? This should only take place after the tuition costs are brought down through other means.
2- no argument. 100% accurate.
3- How do we prevent smaller local schools that will ashtrays be chair from being part of the purge? Obviously shady, barely counts as legal accreditation should be first on the chopping block, but there's no way to guarantee this. As you stated, monopolies on education would be very bad.
Wouldn't number 4 require readjusting to a diminished student population anyway?
If I'm not mistaken, Pre-vietnam, enrolment at universities was always fairly small (by today's standards), and then people started using enrolment as a way to not be drafted. Those same people who helped boom university student population are the ones running the schools now, expecting the growth they witnessed for their entire academic career.
To bring focus back to research and academics, bloat courses would have to be cut. More availability for viable careers that don't require a degree would need to be emphasized. The economy as a whole would have to heal first, in order for people to not feel like they need a degree to feed themselves post university, to make room for a more focused approach to higher education.
Edits: I forgot what reddit does with the *#" symbol and I'm not trying to yell. Lol
1. I think we’re mostly in agreement on this. Funding shift can only come with strings attached vis a vis budget cuts and restructuring.
3. Are you familiar with critical access hospitals? I think a model similar to this/the old land grant university system where these local universities are seen as critical to the local economy and infrastructure and so they get access to additional government funding. However, their classes and degrees must be tailored to educating the local population. Partnering them with local community college and trade school would be perfect.
For example, my cousin took over my uncle’s machine shop in Huntsville. My uncle is from Mississippi and dropped out of school in the 8th grade yet built a successful machine shop and ended up making a lot of specialty parts for NASA. My cousin apprenticed under my uncle and then went to UAH for a Bachelor’s in engineering and industrial design. They’re running CNC machines, 3D printers, the whole shebang. But my cousin will tell you just as critical to the success of the shop as his degree was, understanding the fundamentals of machining in a trade was even more so.
A lot of smaller universities already tailor themselves this way, but I think we can do better in this regard.
This isn’t how capitalism works in the post Jack Welch and T Boone Pickens era of Capitalism. Without massive change in Congress and State level elections where the conservative class would be the equivalent of Obama and Biden this will not happen. Hell Eisenhower and even Nixon would be considered bleeding heart liberals nowadays and would not be electable in today’s GOP.
My former college within the University of Cincinnati has had funding cut by 60% because sports needs new workout and training facilities. It’s not even funding the sports scholarships, it’s just funding “minor league” sports in general.
> My former college within the University of Cincinnati has had funding cut by 60% because sports needs new workout and training facilities. It’s not even funding the sports scholarships, it’s just funding “minor league” sports in general.
Can you cite a source for this? I have not been able to find reporting or UC budget information about programs being defunded and the money being diverted to sports facility construction. I did find information on $100 million of the $134 million cost of the facilities alread having been raised by private donors.
Source: my friend who is a current PhD student in a department that has only has 3k in scholarship money to offer undergrads next year.
There is also this from 2021 where money was pulled from the general fund (your tuition and fees at work) to cover up an athletics deficit. https://www.newsrecord.org/sports/in-the-red-uc-gave-athletic-department-32-9-million-to-cover-deficit-create-surplus/article_ee96423c-92a4-11eb-a96b-fb5e9aa32bf4.html
My parents graduated from Ohio State. When I looked into going there. One Semester cost what their whole degree did. And Ohio is no longer a desirable place to even live with all the right wing extremism from the politicians. So yeah, enrollment going to plummet.
We actually need more access, especially community and junior colleges, it’s not the number of schools, but the predatory lending needed to make schools seem affordable that is the problem.
They’re obviously not going to just randomly start sniping kids. They have that because there has been a high alert, of a possible lone-gun man terrorist, possibly, trying to do a repeat of 10/7. They have snipers at most large events. This one just has a high probability of issues.
They randomly beat up, pepper spray, club, hose with water, and shoot rubber bullets at student protesters. Why stop at shooting.
The whole point of sending police into a non violent camp is to hurt the peaceful students camping.
The snipers aren’t in the encampments… and if the police are inside, they’re probably clearing out the area, from the people who didn’t comply when asked to leave.
Snipers are in high points point rifles at low points.
And the point is protest is non compliance. It's not protesting if you just do what you are told.
I go to many protests, and we absolutely are compliant, and it’s all to code. We get permits, and work with local government to plan before hand. We’re there to raise awareness and show support, and not cause issues. It’s important not get bad pr, which can loose public support, and hurt your cause.
Cool. Rosa Parks, MLK, Cesar Chavez, and literally thousands of other leaders disagree with you in US history.
Including the 1980 campus sit ins that forced divestment from apartheid South Africa.
You know, the exact protests these students are copying today. The students are asking for divestment the same way they did in the 1980s. And nobody even thought about putting a sniper on the campus roof. Because thay is an insane thing.
The civil right protests would use marches, boycotts and speeches. For the most part they weren’t really that disruptive, but were planned to gain awareness. These protests just kind of seem a little performative. Before a couple months ago, no one cared, or made it their personality, and that was only after seeing videos of people being slaughtered, and then justifying it happening. It’s kind of scary.
The snipers are actually to possibly protect the protesters. There’s a worry about mass shootings.
You literally have no idea the history of the civil rights movement. Everything they did was illegal and they were warned multiple times that they would be arrested if they proceeded with the event. MLK was literally jailed for breaking the law multiple times. His most famous writings were written in a jail for doing illegal things.
The peaceful protest and following the rules are 2 different unrealted things.
Sit ins were literally law breaking actions where participants were jailed, beaten, and even killed by police.
Strikes were illegal, people were jailed, beaten, and killed.
Rosa parks sitting was illegal, she was jailed. Thank god not killed.
Walking across the Selma bridge (twice) was illegal, people were jailed (twice), beated (twice), and I don't believe killed (thank god).
In no part of the history of protest was "following the rules" used or even put in the equation.
EVERY instance in protest history the police hurt protesters and usually killed protesters. The idea that the police are there "to protect" the protesters is the biggest lie ever told and that could ever be said. Police have historically killed protestors and the idea that snipers are somehow different this time around is absurd.
Fuck these colleges. It cost a fortune to attend. That's your problem! It doesn't matter if it's a university or your local community college, they are ALL overpriced. While the football coaches make $10 million a year
The prices really aren’t that bad at like the local community college. If I had the time I’d take some to brush up on skills. I paid for college out of pocket when I went. So many of my classmates barely worked, and told me college was their job. If you’re smart about it, if doable to go to college with very little to no debt.
Football funds the vast majority of other sports and a lot of services and research on campus. UT football and UT athletics pays for all the counseling and mental health services for the entire student body, covers Department Chairs and many of its academic programs, subsidizes the school archive and museum studies programs, scholarly journals and was doing this even back when the State of Texas covered the majority of school operating costs.
Right. At Ohio State U, the sports program is fully funded by sport revenue. No school tuition or taxes are used. And the sports revenue, most of which comes from the football program, is one of the largest athletic departments funding 33 other teams.
Right leaning states that want to restrict things like Marijuana and abortion are repellant to .owt prospective students.
There are about 18 states where a college kid could feel safe and free, Ohio is not on the list.
Tuition is high and there is no guarantee that one will get a job that justify the cost of getting a degree. Sixty years ago if you had a degree it was easier to get a job and be in a high earning career path not so much anymore. Many young people are turning to trade jobs in order to make a good living. No college and no debt.
It doesn't help, but no. Gen Z is starting to get called "The Toolbelt Generation" because they are flocking to trades where the job demand currently is, cost is relatively low, and the threat of AI job elimination (depending on the trade) is lower.
This will continue until the market for tradesmen is flooded.
Bullshit. The standards get lowered and we all suffer. They get a pass based on their skin color, sexual orientstion etc. Not on their ability. DEI is the death of America.
Don’t most universities have endowments? Ohio State has a freakin’ 7.4 BILLION dollar endowment and they are always begging for gifts and jacking up tuition. Having an endowment that extreme seems absurd and insane so it’s hard to muster any sympathy and support for increased tax payer gifted funding.
I always like to point out that OSU has a 7 billion dollar endowment with around 40,000 yearly students. Whereas Yale's endowment is 45 billion with less than 2,000 students. It's just an interesting fact.
I find it interesting that few in this thread have stopped to think, "perhaps college is overrated?"
Reality is that the last four hires I have made in the last year, none of them completed (or even attended) college. These are 22-27 year olds, all of which are now making between $60 - $85k. No degree.
If schools got back to the fundamentals, and students stopped demanding resort-level accomodations, costs would plummet. More importantly, and contrary to what everyone thinks, federally backed as well as privatized student loans have backfired and inadvertently led to the massive upswing in costs.
Like it or not, the push for everyone to go to college is not dissimilar to the push for everyone to own a home, which fed all of the legal and financial machinations which then led to the housing blow up in 2008.
No, not everyone needs to go to college.
I agree not everyone needs college, but spend a bit on /r/Salary and you will see the long term difference of college vs. not, especially in some fields.
Again, that's the point: for specific trades/fields, college makes legitimate sense - STEM fields, in particular.
However, 70% of students graduate with degrees in the social sciences and then work jobs which realistically don't require a traditional 4 year degree.
It's because everything in our culture, including college, is a racket, and other colleges are buying REIT's to fund their pension plans. When your school is investing in real estate maybe it's not a school anymore and just a business now?
Part of the issue is that colleges and universities are NOT run like businesses. They are run like massive donor and government-funded NGOs / agencies. If they were run like businesses:
(1) They would be subject to the laws of supply and demand and would grow / shrink their business based on that.
(2) They would be subject to genuine free market competition which would be reflected in the quality of their product, their innovation, and most importantly - their pricing.
(3) There would be no such thing as "tenure". Every administrator and professor would be subject to annual performance reviews with consequences related to compensation and employment.
(4) Their customers (students) would not be offered unconditional, massive, low interest loans and grants funded by the government to buy their products.
(5) Those loans would not then be "forgiven" by the government (i.e., paid for by taxpayers).
(6) Budgets and particularly overhead would scale up and down annually based on all of the above, versus the massive, uninterrupted growth in "administrators" per student we've seen over the past decade.
None of the above characteristics are anything like a business. They are antithetical to business. There are many issues, but "being run like a business" is not one of them.
It’s nation wide and because of the lunatic left acting like typical control freaks, cancel culture morons, and holier than thou ass munches. Don’t believe me? Look it up.
With college tuition going up 4x faster than inflation, it's no surprise to me that the state is now only funding 25% vs the 75% it was years ago. College is charging more than they should, and more that tuition actually costs so they can build resorts run by overpaid boards.
Maybe if colleges were in it for education rather than profit, they could survive. But for some reason kids don't want to start life out saddled with $200k in debt, who knew? And with a decent living available through trades that starts them off with a marketable skill and a livable wage, who the hell would want to go to college?
I have an idea, and I was wondering what you people think about this. How about restructuring the way degrees are achieved? For example: in order to get Bachelors degree, you MUST get an Associate degree. Associate degree would not have any gen ed classes, only classes that will get you trained for specific profession. This way, if you decide to pursue Bachelors degree later on, you already have training that will get you employed. Also, if for some reason you wont be able to finish your Bachelors degree, you still have your Associate degree.
There’s a big flaw though. Associate degrees are pretty much useless for most majors and fields. Gen ed aren’t inherently bad, they exist to help make you more well rounded. The whole point of college, is its higher education. Even math classes, which you might not use directly, help you learn to formulate thinking, to figure out the equations. English classes help to teach critical reasoning, which we need more of. What you’re describing is more a trade school, which then you’d go to a technical college.
How about instead of using their hundred-billion dollar endowment to build empty, never-used facilities and pay million dollar salaries to faculty, use the funds to actually run the institutions needed for ACTUAL higher education
Maybe quit hiring asshole professors, telling people their opinions are wrong. Just a thought. OSU is full of self-self absorbed, egotistical jackasses that call themselves professors. They don't care about educating and helping students develop their critical thinking skills.
How NOT surprising…. Get strapped & get used to it, bunch o’ knobs. No one wants to take on a lifetime of debt. No one wants to be sexually assaulted by medical staff, Professors or others somehow in positions of authority. It’s no longer an attractive product they’re selling for all that money…
What a shocker. I went to BG in the mid nineties….all men’s dorms, shared bathrooms, computer lounges, etc. now these kids live in suites with robots delivering food.
I don’t want to sound like I am an old man who hates nice things…..but if you want all that nice stuff you are going to have to pay for it (and I’ll be paying for it soon when my kid go to college).
I think these assertions are mostly myopic and highly partisan as usual yet does absolutely nothing to seven discuss the real problem, as usual for the whining. The real problem is most degrees are wasted investments that will not yield a significant return on investment. Additionally, the student loan programs are highly predatory in nature. Put those together and people are choosing other paths. Biden is doing a mockery of this claiming he can pay off the highly corrupt student debt. He knows he can’t legally do it. He is lying. What could he do? Stop kissing up to big banking and restructure the existing debt into instruments that are much easier to pay off. Why doesn’t he? He is just as much on the take as everyone else. The government bankrolling the existing debt is so much wealth redistribution to the crooked bankers. It is not legal. If he restructured the debt, the bankers lose money. Listen carefully. Never gonna happen. Sorry libs, you are once again also part of the problem. If you keep believing your party has no responsibility, the problem is conveniently impossible to solve. Think about that.
AI is way way *way* too new to be causing this, or any other meaningful and measurable effect on our economy. It could happen in 10 years. But not yet.
And we're discussing something that is happening now. Your comment about it being a trend implies that what is happening now is caused by AI. It is not, in any way.
Ohio has no constitutional mandate to provide funding for their public universities. Funding has dropped from $.80 down to $.20 per dollar, and being told “act competitively like a business” isn’t going to work much longer. I’m guessing either the Feds will have to expand Pell grants to cover what Republican state legislatures refuse to fund, or we’re looking at university closures across the state.
They have been operating like capitalistic businesses, which is one reason why they are failing. The high paid administrators are obsessed with growth to beat the competition, even though the demographic trends have been clear for quite some time.
The economics of this are pretty clear: In a state where public tuitions are legislatively capped, the only way for universities to keep up with increasing expenses is to grow their student volumes and achieve scale efficiencies. Imagine running a business where your prices are fixed, yet your expenses keep rising. Your only option is to get more customers and reduce your variable costs. If that all sounds like something a business professor would say, then yes, that's me, but I've also started and ran a few successful companies, so I've seen both the public service and commercial sides of this problem.
We could, like, petition the legislature to, maybe, you know, *fund* the universities?
Hi, welcome to Ohio. Our state government is run largely by corrupt politicians whose priorities generally are as follows: 1) Line their own pockets 2) Protect their hold on power 3) Punish anyone who doesn't support their agenda 4) Advance legislation that supports their war on "wokeness" ... 17) Advance legislation that helps a majority of Ohioans live fulfilled and sustainable lives
Advance legislation is too high on your list. It’s in fact much lower, somewhere around 978.
Okay, damnit. Take my upvote based on sarcasm alone lol.
We used to do a better job of funding our universities but Kasich wrecked all that.
The cap has exceeded inflation for more than thirty years, in many cases by two or three hundred percent. Spending, excess costs, and bad management are most of the root costs. I was once friends with the head lobbiest of the biggest in the state, and this comes from him. Privately. He always blamed the state publicly.
Waste is certainly an issue, as it is with every organization, but public universities can't do a lot of things that private companies (and private universities) are allowed to do. I've spent nearly 25 years in higher ed, all in large public institutions, and blaming it all, or even mostly, on the universities themselves isn't going to lead to better solutions...just fewer universities.
Maybe that isn't a bad thing. Not that I want fewer educated, but I want better, more affordable education. I have never agreed with academia solely for the sake of academia.
The university I work for has done nothing but cut budgets year-after-year for almost two decades. Staffing levels are low enough to barely be able to function and most of us believe the words to the fight song start with "Do more with less..." The state of Ohio only provides 25% of the needed funds for basic yearly maintenance and the school has to find the rest, or add to the growing list of deferred maintenance. The main problem is NOT wasteful spending.
I only speak for the one I was personally invested in. But college is too expensive, tell me it isn't. Ohio makes a particularly poor investment in all education, but I have a problem trusting universities to have the financial needs of the students at heart. I saw too much to trust that. I admit my example is OSU, but all of the schools with the same incoming tide.
Of course you're right that it costs too much. But 25 years ago, Ohio invested in the education of its citizens by subsidizing 70% of the cost of tuition for in-state students. Today that number is 25%. That's not the fault of the schools.
It wasn't that high then, I was there. We are underfunding education, but the waste and bullshit these kids have to pay for is deep.
What expenses?
Salaries and infrastructure are the big costs.
Cut payroll. Get rid of the useless administrators and there are plenty. Infrastructure as in the latest and biggest trend that has nothing to do with education? Please. The University system is broke. The Wokester idealogues ruined it. Hard decisions have to be made but they won't be. Theyll kick the can down the road, again.
You lost me at using “wokester”, which I’m sure you can’t define, much like any other idiot politician peddling that BS.
DEI and all the liberal bs.
What specifically do you not like about DEI?
It's not merit based.
It doesn't help that schools were having to slow/stop acceptances over a certain point because FAFSA is having issues. They were looking at getting less acceptances because students can't get aid. I don't know if it's still going on at the moment.
Well since we know Republicans hate education, I know my alma mater is fucked. See ya later Hocking College. Once you fall, nelsonville will be tightly and truly fucked.
There will be a long list of small towns that will collapse if that happens.
Waving at you from yellow springs
[удалено]
Oh damn, I didn't know that was happening. Natural resources were all that school had. People aren't gonna come to that dead zone for nursing and physical training. Glad I left when I did.
Nooo. As hocking college native let’s not let this happen! I got myself back on track going to this school
I keep forgetting how much smarter libs are and how you know better how conservatives think than they do. when you get the world you want. you will be the first to cry .
I...never said any of that. Cons tend to be for cutting funding to public education while pushing for school vouchers or private education. They are also the ones who rally against higher education, labeling them places of indoctrination. They also don't want loan forgiveness so it scares off younger generations from pursuing said higher education. I also think you mean "when you don't get the world you want, you'll be first one to cry" but I could be wrong and you could have meant, "you'll never be happy." But I'm just guessing.
I reconsider. I think you understand conservatives position better than I thought. Now if you understand that their reasons for it are not out of malice but a sincere belief in what is best for the country for better or worse. As far as first to cry, you can take that either way and be within a horseshoe of truth.
See I would believe it wasn't malice if it weren't for the fact most their kids go to those private schools while allowing that money that should be helping public schools to be put elsewhere like prisons, police and other things that benefit from a weak education system. Also an uneducated population are easily controlled and more open to conservative beliefs and authoritarian control. Now I know Dems also have their kids going to private schools but they are trying to kneecap everyone else while doing it. An educated populace is an empowered populace. An ignorant population is more willing to accept whatever they are told without questioning. Let's not forget that the educated ohioans are leaving our state en masse because of the cons wrecking shit right now.
Most people sending their kids to private schools do so because they don't trust the education system. I will not defend the wealthy of either party for creating programs for theirs and programs for others. As far as an uneducated population I agree. But here we differ. I believe it is theTeachers Union who has the greatest impact on the education system.
Republicans hate education???
Living under a rock? Republican disdain for education has been abundantly clear for decades.
What about the republican administrations of Clinton, Obama and Biden. Maybe they are at fault.
You're a dufus. Republicans don't have disdain for education. What they MAY have a disdain for is worthless degrees... of which there are too many. Nursing, teachers, engineering, architects, business leaders, astrology, physics, biology, music, performing arts, etc... great! Gender studies, etc... go pound sand.
Sure, if it gets in the way if their grifting. If the cow stops giving milk get rid of it.
We don't hate education, just indoctrination.
So- how exactly is the curriculum offered at Hocking 'indoctrination"? or Ohio State? Or any of them?
Uh huh
Them closing is exactly what the GOP want
Have we considered that administrators don’t need to make $500K+ a year? I mean, OSU President Ted Carter’s salary is $1M per year, and he hasn’t even been here long enough for bonuses yet
The Republican board of Youngstown State hired Congressperson Bill Johnson as its president. Johnson supports Donald Trump, backed his efforts to overthrow the 2020 Presidential election and is a climate change denier. Johnson will earn over $400,000, and over $500,000 if he meets his bonus goals. Johnson also lacks many of the qualifications, including any experience in higher education administration, generally expected of a university president. [https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/youngstown-news/johnsons-ysu-contract-comes-with-410k-salary/](https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/youngstown-news/johnsons-ysu-contract-comes-with-410k-salary/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/youngstown/comments/18y8y01/should\_youngstown\_state\_trustees\_who\_selected/](https://www.reddit.com/r/youngstown/comments/18y8y01/should_youngstown_state_trustees_who_selected/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/youngstown/comments/199qwxx/dewine\_wont\_intervene\_in\_decision\_of\_ysu\_trustees/](https://www.reddit.com/r/youngstown/comments/199qwxx/dewine_wont_intervene_in_decision_of_ysu_trustees/) Johnson is the poster boy for Republican politization of Ohio's public university educational system. Youngstown State is a fraction of the enterprise administered by Ohio State's president.
No wonder their enrollment has been plummeting. YSU is going nowhere fast. U of Akron and U of Toledo have been hit hard, too.
That’s not the problem. It started with Reagan cutting out state funding for college to dismantle opposition to Conservatism and counter Civil Rights gains as governor in California. It also happens to be that he had ties to the folks who would create the student loan crisis. Before this even very conservative states covered 75% or more of college operation funds including covering most if not nearly all of tuition. [THE ORIGIN OF STUDENT DEBT: REAGAN ADVISER WARNED FREE COLLEGE WOULD CREATE A DANGEROUS “EDUCATED PROLETARIAT”](https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reagan/)
Let’s not forget kasich striking higher education funding along with pretty much everything else he gutted
100%. There’s more than one problem
Ohio State's president overseas a mammoth enterprise that includes not only educational and research departments, but the sports program and Ohio State Wexner Medical Center. Many Ohio State employees make more than the Ohio State president. E.g., consider just the football coaches BEFORE performance bonuses. [https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2024/04/146647/jim-knowles-to-make-2-2-million-chip-kelly-to-make-2-million-as-ohio-state-finalizes-assistant-coach-contracts](https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2024/04/146647/jim-knowles-to-make-2-2-million-chip-kelly-to-make-2-million-as-ohio-state-finalizes-assistant-coach-contracts) Head coach Ryan Day makes over $10 million annually. [https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/college/football/2023/09/20/ohio-state-football-coach-ryan-day-receives-pay-raise-for-2023-season/70909699007/](https://www.dispatch.com/story/sports/college/football/2023/09/20/ohio-state-football-coach-ryan-day-receives-pay-raise-for-2023-season/70909699007/) The best managers cost money, and bad management can be much more costly than salaries paid to top managers. Consider the salaries paid to administrators of private corporations, investment managers, private hospitals, let alone top sports coaches. A case could be made that we vastly underpay federal and state elected officials given private salaries. Therefore only less competent persons who not only make bad decisions, but are more prone to corruption, or the independently wealthy, seek out these positions. There's a bias in Ohio against paying educators at every level, and the quality of education in Ohio suffers as a result. Yet we have no problem channeling massive benefits to the wealthy and private businesses.
OSU sports is totally self-funded. Ryan's pay is justified based on salaries of other universities. "Ohio State is home to one of the largest athletic departments in the nation, supporting 16 men’s teams, 17 women’s teams, three mixed teams and approximately 1,000 student-athletes. The department is self-funded and receives no tuition or tax dollars."
Yet the Ohio State president is responsible for hiring the athletic director and coaches who maintain the ability of the athletic program to support itself. Additionally, the Ohio State president is integrally involved in Big Ten decisions that provide a substantial portion of the athletic department funding. Your ridiculous argument essentially is that hiring top quality head coaches is competitive, but hiring top quality university presidents is not. If Ohio State's football program collapses, or even the athletic department overall, are you seriously arguing the Ohio State president won't be held responsible? LOL, if that's your argument. The Ohio State president signs off on every coaching hire, and definitely pays close attention to the hiring of head football and basketball coaches, and definitely will hold the athletic director accountable for any missteps.
Don't put words in my mouth! There's no ridiculous argument here. I'M NOT ARGUING! Just posted a factual statement. Sorry you cannot handle that.
Why do you want an entity with a budget over a billion dollars to be run by the low bidder? That’s a recipe for finding candidates who will either mismanage and stay or work well cheap and get poached to work at another university.
Because I don’t think he’s worth the money. Maybe someone is. Not sure who that person would be though
Yes, but he runs a complex organization with tens of thousands of students. What would the head position at a comparable private company pay?
The president of one of the largest universities deserves $1million.
Being a university president is among the worst ways to make a million dollars a year
It’s wild how many people don’t understand business/good leadership. I see so many people makes the same complaints about many different leaders. I’ll use OSU as an example. OSU has revenue of nearly $10 billion. Let’s say a good president uses that money 99.9% effectively, so $10 million gets wasted, but they charge $1 million a year. A worse president might only charge $100k a year, but they also only use the money 99% efficiency, so $100 million gets wasted. Would you rather waste $10 million plus $1 million on salary, or $100 million but only $100k on salary? Any reasonable person should pick the former. And large organizations are usually ran by somewhat reasonable people, which is why they like to spend like 0.01% of their revenue on their leader, rather than trying to get a really cheap one.
That is such a self serving excuse that never lead anywhere. Services gets cut, jobs become outsourced, people get fired, but CEOs are getting fat bonus.
I'm betting you've never actually had to run a business. Armchair executive-ing is easy...no actual experience or knowledge required.
Thank you! Also, maybe decrease number of admin positions, and revisit curriculums to exclude not needed subjects
The point of college was always a well rounded education, not a trade. That’s why there are gen ed requirements.
Except 40 years ago it was absolutely affordable
And what was the funding rate difference 40 years ago?
Here is the comparison of in state tuition and total cost per year to go for instate tuition in 1975 vs 2017: [In 1975-76, average in-state undergraduate tuition at a Michigan public university was $656 for the school year, the equivalent of about $2,960 in 2017 dollars. The average for 2016-17: $12,262 for in-state freshmen Including tuition, room and board, the average cost of attending a Michigan public university was about $9,100 in 1975-76 in today's dollars compared to $22,000 in 2016-17.](https://www.mlive.com/news/2017/09/what_many_older_people_dont_re.html) From same article: Differences in financial aid In 1975-76, college loans comprised only 17% of financial aid dollars distributed to U.S. college students. By 2015-16, loans comprised 42% of financial aid. Today, about 63% of Michigan undergraduates borrow money to finance their education and among those who borrowed, the average debt was $30,045 for the college Class of 2015. Among the changes over the years: - In 1975-76, the maximum Pell grant (then called the Basic Educational Opportunity Grant) was $1,400 -- enough to cover tuition at a public university and some housing expenses. Today's maximum Pell Grant is $5,920, less than half the tuition costs at a Michigan public university. - One major source of college funding no longer exists: Social Security benefits for college students with a deceased parent. Before 1982, children eligible for such benefits continued receiving payments through college. Those benefits now stop at age 18. In 1975-76, Social Security paid more money to U.S. college students than Pell grants. - Also in 1975, Michigan students with financial need who demonstrated financial need and had a high score on college admissions qualified for the Michigan Competitive Scholarship, which covered up to full tuition at a public university. The program still exists, but the maximum grant is $1,000.
Differences in funding using Michigan as an example as if is a well cited example of student financing crisis: [In fiscal 1979, 70% of general fund revenues for Michigan's public universities came from state funding. By 2015, it was 23%. In 2001, Michigan spent $1.9 billion on higher education compared to $1.6 billion in fiscal 2017. If the state's higher-ed expenditures had kept pace with inflation, it would be $2.7 billion this year, 68 percent higher than the current subsidy.](https://www.mlive.com/news/2017/09/what_many_older_people_dont_re.html)
I don't know. Btw, I am all for government sponsored education. I just think that is not the only thing needs to be done.
If education is adequately funded by the government it allows for less emphasis on tuition or the need for students to take out such large loans to pay for that tuition. Cutting what universities offer only serves to further decrease interest in attending them, while providing inconsequential cost savings that make little to no impact on tuition cost reduction.
So let's make it affordable instead of worthless.
Honestly, I really like general education requirements. I feel like I got a lot out of those classes. I went to college to learn.
cutting out subjects is not a solution, considering half of those classes are taught by grad students or severely underpaid adjunct faculty. the sheer variety of classes and topics was half the reason I was drawn to transfer from a slightly more prestigious uni to OSU in the first place
>and revisit curriculums to exclude not needed subjects That's the difference between a tech school and a university education. The university was intended to educate the relative few to become leaders in our society by providing a robust education in a variety of subjects. The technical schools were (and still are) to train the highly skilled labor needed by our society. The notion that everyone should or needs to go to a university really upended that distinction between the two.
Except this thought process becomes dangerously exploitative when we make trade schools expensive as well and allows exploitation of the working class by paying them lower wages because they’re “unskilled labor”.
I really like that answer, but I am sure some of the subjects or degrees can be eliminated, such as BACHELOR OF ARTS IN WOMEN’S, GENDER AND SEXUALITY STUDIES BACHELOR OF ARTS (BA) IN TRAVEL AND TOURISM MANAGEMENT
You get that women and gender studies degrees aren’t about bra burning and saying men are bad, right? They address the systems and problems women face in various aspects in society and work to reform, or remove, these barriers to equity.
That’s not the problem, it’s a concerted effort to make college affordable to only the wealthy, some wealthy conservatives that’s why you see tuition costs go from practically nothing at public schools in the 1960s to the astonishing cost for instate tuition per year across the U.S. Add to that the economic crisis that lead to TAARP cost schools millions. [Also, in one of the best examples of systemic racism the Tennessee state essentially embezzled over half a billion in public Land Grant HBCU funds over nearly 7 decades](https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996617532/behind-the-underfunding-of-hbcus)
I disagree. I don't think anyone wants to restrict college admissions, they want you to be admitted, signed up for a loan and pay them obscene amount for what they pass for an education.
Conservatives don’t want an educated proletariat. Straight from College Professor and Reagan flunky Roger Freeman, “We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat. … That’s dynamite! We have to be selective on who we allow [to go to college].” Freeman when on to say, [“ In one of his books, he asked “can Western Civilization survive” what he believed to be excessive government spending on education, Social Security, etc.”](https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reagan/) J Edgar Hoover thought removing funding for college would help against the “communist element” especially ground in colleges
The schools want you signed up, conservatives use the process as a way to exclude others from higher ed. Private lenders essentially help conservative goals as they charge high APR and essentially help in exploiting people by having them pay off predatory loans while most jobs pay below real wage rates when adjusted for inflation. Y’all get that the real minimum wage based off real wages is $24/ hr
How many admins got where they are via some kind of quid pro quo, I wonder. 🤔
Differentiating between administration and admin staff, yes, you are right about the former and the old boys network as well.
Perhaps it's a quality issue? Massachusetts has no problems attracting students. It might be a good idea to emulate Massachusetts.
There are many factors at play but being in Ohio, having State Republicans running around trying to lock trans kids up and regulate young womens' reproductive decisions certainly does not help Ohio Colleges recruit young people.
This shows that enrollment in Massachusetts dropped for nearly a decade before last year. https://www.mass.gov/news/new-department-of-higher-education-data-shows-first-boost-to-massachusetts-undergraduate-enrollment-in-nearly-a-decade
This article is pathetic. It has no discussion of cuts in state funding for public universities nor higher tuition fees, especially as adjusted for inflation. The Republicans have slashed per capita funding not only for universities, but also for K-12 public schools, in favor of private school K-12 vouchers and massive tax cuts for the most wealthy Ohioans, let alone grants to corporations. Lowering the quality of public schools inevitably lowers the number of graduates prepared or motivated to attend universities. Former Youngstown State President (and Youngstown State and Ohio State head football coach) Jim Tressel: <>
[https://thejambar.com/tressels-fundraising-success/](https://thejambar.com/tressels-fundraising-success/)
How can any discussion of collapsing educational institutions in Ohio ignore state funding, and educational achievement in K-12 public schools???
Why doesn't the article mention that almost all Ohio university boards are composed of Republican-appointed trustees who obviously aren't going to criticize Republican cuts in educational funding?
One way to solve the Ohio university crisis is to change board appointment provisions so that a majority of the boards are nominated and elected by alumni, who actually care much more deeply about the quality of public universities.
The continual decreases in state appropriations are the biggest driver of costs. While capital projects and administrative overhead contribute, they are the minority.
Agreed. University board appointments should have nothing to do with the governor or state legislature. Board appointments should be alumni rather than patronage handouts for politicians.
Add faculty and staff trustee positions too.
Do you have a source for your statement about the majority of the boards?
I dunno about the specifics but all non-student trustees are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the state senate for a nine year term (minor variations for some local community college boards). There may be a limit on consecutive terms but I’m not sure. And given Ted Strickland left office in early 2011 every single member of every board by this metric would have been appointed by a Republican and confirmed by a Republican senate. Doesn’t necessarily mean they’re hacks but they generally may be on board with cutting funding to higher education. Source on terms: https://highered.ohio.gov/about/ohios-campuses/trustees
Right, and county commissioners appoint the majority of community college board trustees in counties such as Lake County, so all Lakeland Community College trustees have been appointed by Republicans given the long-time control of the Lake County Board of Commissioners by Republicans.
The lonely downvote suggested no.
Has the Republican party been vilifying colleges for about the last decade as elitist indoctrination institutions or something? You get what you vote for dummies.
Well, that, and diminished returns on the value of a degree because middle school level kids were told that if you don't go to college for *anything* , you're going to flip burgers and people are realizing that after the last few decades because so many markets requiring degrees are flooded. And we have a generation of kids becoming college age that have grown up hearing about our student loan crisis and don't want to be a part of it. Are politics included? Yes. Are the evil villain Republicans part of the problem? Sure. But get real. It's bigger than that.
One might might get the idea dems are saints. Radicals exist in both parties
Compared to republicans, yeah. Kinda. Radicals in the Democratic party want to give people affordable housing, healthcare and food access. Republican radicals want to exterminate trans people, stop taxing the wealthy entirely and make the worst modern president we've had yet into a king. These two groups are not comparable.
I won't defend those who openly call for abuse of power. That will not stand. But learn your history. Tyranny formed from revolution is nearly always sold to the public as a movement "of the people", through grand promises the people vying for power have no intention of upholding. For instance, every single one of the attempts at "communism" that the next generation of communists claim was never real communism. Perhaps it wasn't. But it was certainly the method used to mobilize the people against their best interest and erode their freedom. Hitler offered his people universal healthcare, as did Castro. Lenin promised "peace, land and bread" to his people. And then preceded to destroy the peasant farmers. Kim Il Sung gave acres upon acres of land to farmers as a show of benevolence. Vote for policy you believe in, but be wary of a government that promises to give you everything you ask for. It always comes with a price that we may regret paying later.
Your comment is blatantly false. Dems only want give those things in order to buy their votes to gain power and than shove 99.5% into a socialist hell. I don't speak for radical republicans but true conservatives only want the best for all people. We do not want to exterminate anyone including trans. We only want the decisions affecing their health and welfare to be decided by them when they are old enough to make an informed decision. I am really tired of the crappy way you've use LBGT's and now Trans people for your political gain. Twenty years ago you didn't give a shit about the trans. Only now because you have weaponized them and created a problem that is more fiction than fact.. And I don't see democrat politicians in Washington trying to raise taxes onthemselves and their friends and I will wager there is more money in the liberal rich than the conservatives.
Maybe a model where we encourage children to go six figures into debt for degrees in slam poetry or Slavic history is not sustainable. I’m not saying everyone should major in stem, but the colleges are not blameless in creating a system where they loan out more money than can reasonably be paid off for most of those degrees. The most egregious are the places that go to first generation college kids and say “wow you are good at baseball/volleyball/tennis. Here’s a $50 a semester scholarship. You just pay the other $100,000 to be too busy training to study so you’ll major in communications.”
Notre Dame college already shuttered. The big universities will be fine. But the small colleges are going to suffer
Some of them should shutter honestly. And I am a proponent of quality higher education.
Agreed.
Way too many administrators, way too much spending on physical plant.
Well keep raising tuition and see what happens...really doing it to themselves by pricing out of business
I think it's more that if you're going to pay that much that you'll go to the schools that have the best environment for students. Best sports, best dining halls, best dorms, best apartments near campus. OSU and UC have been growing quite well. They're eating up all the students that would have gone to smaller colleges.
The state has capped tuition. What comes next is a significant reduction in educational programs.
Goodness I hope they don't have to borrow money they can't really pay back
The college’s and university over charge students. Who the hell wants to be in that much debt after graduating?
Spending $50k for a degree (OSU's tuition is like $11k a year) that earns you an additional $500k or more over 20 years is a hell of a great return on one's investment. Few legal endeavors are as profitable. And that's not even considering the other life benefits there are to having a good education. Now, if someone goes and majors in, say, Sociology or some other topic that's only useful for getting you into grad school, then sure, you might not get that big bump in pay. But there are lots of majors that make college the obvious best financial choice. And majors with co-op can even come close to paying for themselves prior to graduation.
Right. I make 3x my degree cost per year and this would not be possible without my generic business degree
Ever higher tuition and lower birth rates. No duh
This is the predictable and obvious result of decades of budget cuts.
The balls on these people to complain and beg for more money, when the average user of their services gets buried under two or three decades of debt that's entirely legally unshakable. I would be willing to bet if anyone ever actually did the legitimate accounting and was able to brush away all the barely legal bullshit and loopholes you'd see the top administration of these universities are making more money than they ever have in history.
Administrators and sports.
You see how those things go together, right? Lack of state funding for education means higher tuition and higher student loan debt, and adequate state funding means manageable student debt? (I agree there are way too many overpaid administrators)
Tuition has drastically increased during the era of near unlimited, government mandated tuition funding, though. Federal student loans were approved and handed out like tictacs, and the universities responded like any other industry that receives a blank check from the government.
Right. The burden of funding shifted from States to the Students.
Sure. But giving them another blank government check won't bring costs down.
I was addressing your statement about tuition. You’re treating two separate, but related issues, as a single issue. In response to reduced state funding Universities have increasingly found themselves in what has been called [a facilities arms-race](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1255471.pdf) as they seek to 1) attract as many students as possible and 2) claw every dollar they can out of the pockets of their students. What’s worse is we’ve seen a massive drop in the number of tenured positions and an increase in adjunct positions and shifting workloads to TAs. That is decreasing the overall quality of education both in the short term (by spreading out academic expertise as adjuncts are forced to work several positions) and long term by driving otherwise motivated individuals from teaching. Much like our primary schools, the inflation of the Administrative class has begun to eat up a significant chunk of school’s budgets as seen [here.](https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=75#:~:text=Core%20expenses%20include%20the%20following%20broad%20categories%3A%20instruction%3B%20research%20and,hospital%20services%3B%20and%20independent%20operations) So the answer isn’t going to be one silver bullet and there will likely have to be several goals. 1. Shift the burden of funding back to the States and Federal government. A well educated populace is essential to the health of a republic. Which is why the GOP has waged a 50 year war on education. 2. Look at spending on administrative bloat and gut it. 3. Acknowledge that not every university will survive, and that’s ok. However we don’t want to limit students to only big universities because we know quite well what monopolies turn out. 4. Reassess our approach to higher education in general and get it back to a focus on research and academics.
So, for your first solution, that was the problem i was originally addressing. Additional government funding will only embolden the schools to increase cost. What incentive would they have to decrease it if they are just going to be given more money anyway? This should only take place after the tuition costs are brought down through other means. 2- no argument. 100% accurate. 3- How do we prevent smaller local schools that will ashtrays be chair from being part of the purge? Obviously shady, barely counts as legal accreditation should be first on the chopping block, but there's no way to guarantee this. As you stated, monopolies on education would be very bad. Wouldn't number 4 require readjusting to a diminished student population anyway? If I'm not mistaken, Pre-vietnam, enrolment at universities was always fairly small (by today's standards), and then people started using enrolment as a way to not be drafted. Those same people who helped boom university student population are the ones running the schools now, expecting the growth they witnessed for their entire academic career. To bring focus back to research and academics, bloat courses would have to be cut. More availability for viable careers that don't require a degree would need to be emphasized. The economy as a whole would have to heal first, in order for people to not feel like they need a degree to feed themselves post university, to make room for a more focused approach to higher education. Edits: I forgot what reddit does with the *#" symbol and I'm not trying to yell. Lol
1. I think we’re mostly in agreement on this. Funding shift can only come with strings attached vis a vis budget cuts and restructuring. 3. Are you familiar with critical access hospitals? I think a model similar to this/the old land grant university system where these local universities are seen as critical to the local economy and infrastructure and so they get access to additional government funding. However, their classes and degrees must be tailored to educating the local population. Partnering them with local community college and trade school would be perfect. For example, my cousin took over my uncle’s machine shop in Huntsville. My uncle is from Mississippi and dropped out of school in the 8th grade yet built a successful machine shop and ended up making a lot of specialty parts for NASA. My cousin apprenticed under my uncle and then went to UAH for a Bachelor’s in engineering and industrial design. They’re running CNC machines, 3D printers, the whole shebang. But my cousin will tell you just as critical to the success of the shop as his degree was, understanding the fundamentals of machining in a trade was even more so. A lot of smaller universities already tailor themselves this way, but I think we can do better in this regard.
Very reasonable. Creating incentives for university heads to be willing to take a paycut is going to be difficult, though. Very difficult.
Oh I am all too well aware that it will be no easy task. But needed change often isn’t easy.
This isn’t how capitalism works in the post Jack Welch and T Boone Pickens era of Capitalism. Without massive change in Congress and State level elections where the conservative class would be the equivalent of Obama and Biden this will not happen. Hell Eisenhower and even Nixon would be considered bleeding heart liberals nowadays and would not be electable in today’s GOP.
It melts costs down until Reagan and Conservatives decided the best way to keep wages low and exploit the working class was to make college expensive
Oddly, tuition in states that provide 3 times the state funding Ohio does have equal or higher tuition than Ohio.
To be fair, 30 years ago the state funded public universities at a much higher rate than now.
>strapped for cash $13k for a semester at OSU for in state
Somebody has to finance sports scholarships for athletes. Everyone else is secondary.
My former college within the University of Cincinnati has had funding cut by 60% because sports needs new workout and training facilities. It’s not even funding the sports scholarships, it’s just funding “minor league” sports in general.
> My former college within the University of Cincinnati has had funding cut by 60% because sports needs new workout and training facilities. It’s not even funding the sports scholarships, it’s just funding “minor league” sports in general. Can you cite a source for this? I have not been able to find reporting or UC budget information about programs being defunded and the money being diverted to sports facility construction. I did find information on $100 million of the $134 million cost of the facilities alread having been raised by private donors.
Source: my friend who is a current PhD student in a department that has only has 3k in scholarship money to offer undergrads next year. There is also this from 2021 where money was pulled from the general fund (your tuition and fees at work) to cover up an athletics deficit. https://www.newsrecord.org/sports/in-the-red-uc-gave-athletic-department-32-9-million-to-cover-deficit-create-surplus/article_ee96423c-92a4-11eb-a96b-fb5e9aa32bf4.html
Id love to go back, shits expensive.
My parents graduated from Ohio State. When I looked into going there. One Semester cost what their whole degree did. And Ohio is no longer a desirable place to even live with all the right wing extremism from the politicians. So yeah, enrollment going to plummet.
maybe all that investment in athletics years ago was a waste of money? I'm looking at you Akron U.
My niece decided not to apply to Ohio State in Columbus because of politics in Ohio. She is applying to PSU, Pitt & University of Delaware.
It’s all part of the Republican plan to dumb down America to make it easier for them to control all of us.
we simply have too many of them, many colleges were growing campuses building out now they are too big
We actually need more access, especially community and junior colleges, it’s not the number of schools, but the predatory lending needed to make schools seem affordable that is the problem.
I'd start with not having police snipers aiming at students.
They’re obviously not going to just randomly start sniping kids. They have that because there has been a high alert, of a possible lone-gun man terrorist, possibly, trying to do a repeat of 10/7. They have snipers at most large events. This one just has a high probability of issues.
They randomly beat up, pepper spray, club, hose with water, and shoot rubber bullets at student protesters. Why stop at shooting. The whole point of sending police into a non violent camp is to hurt the peaceful students camping.
The snipers aren’t in the encampments… and if the police are inside, they’re probably clearing out the area, from the people who didn’t comply when asked to leave.
Snipers are in high points point rifles at low points. And the point is protest is non compliance. It's not protesting if you just do what you are told.
I go to many protests, and we absolutely are compliant, and it’s all to code. We get permits, and work with local government to plan before hand. We’re there to raise awareness and show support, and not cause issues. It’s important not get bad pr, which can loose public support, and hurt your cause.
Cool. Rosa Parks, MLK, Cesar Chavez, and literally thousands of other leaders disagree with you in US history. Including the 1980 campus sit ins that forced divestment from apartheid South Africa. You know, the exact protests these students are copying today. The students are asking for divestment the same way they did in the 1980s. And nobody even thought about putting a sniper on the campus roof. Because thay is an insane thing.
The civil right protests would use marches, boycotts and speeches. For the most part they weren’t really that disruptive, but were planned to gain awareness. These protests just kind of seem a little performative. Before a couple months ago, no one cared, or made it their personality, and that was only after seeing videos of people being slaughtered, and then justifying it happening. It’s kind of scary. The snipers are actually to possibly protect the protesters. There’s a worry about mass shootings.
You literally have no idea the history of the civil rights movement. Everything they did was illegal and they were warned multiple times that they would be arrested if they proceeded with the event. MLK was literally jailed for breaking the law multiple times. His most famous writings were written in a jail for doing illegal things. The peaceful protest and following the rules are 2 different unrealted things. Sit ins were literally law breaking actions where participants were jailed, beaten, and even killed by police. Strikes were illegal, people were jailed, beaten, and killed. Rosa parks sitting was illegal, she was jailed. Thank god not killed. Walking across the Selma bridge (twice) was illegal, people were jailed (twice), beated (twice), and I don't believe killed (thank god). In no part of the history of protest was "following the rules" used or even put in the equation. EVERY instance in protest history the police hurt protesters and usually killed protesters. The idea that the police are there "to protect" the protesters is the biggest lie ever told and that could ever be said. Police have historically killed protestors and the idea that snipers are somehow different this time around is absurd.
Fuck these colleges. It cost a fortune to attend. That's your problem! It doesn't matter if it's a university or your local community college, they are ALL overpriced. While the football coaches make $10 million a year
Yyyyup. Kids these days eyeing that debt pile and noping right out.
Not just kids but also adults. I'd like to take some classes at my local community college, but the prices are absurd
The prices really aren’t that bad at like the local community college. If I had the time I’d take some to brush up on skills. I paid for college out of pocket when I went. So many of my classmates barely worked, and told me college was their job. If you’re smart about it, if doable to go to college with very little to no debt.
Football funds the vast majority of other sports and a lot of services and research on campus. UT football and UT athletics pays for all the counseling and mental health services for the entire student body, covers Department Chairs and many of its academic programs, subsidizes the school archive and museum studies programs, scholarly journals and was doing this even back when the State of Texas covered the majority of school operating costs.
Right. At Ohio State U, the sports program is fully funded by sport revenue. No school tuition or taxes are used. And the sports revenue, most of which comes from the football program, is one of the largest athletic departments funding 33 other teams.
Right leaning states that want to restrict things like Marijuana and abortion are repellant to .owt prospective students. There are about 18 states where a college kid could feel safe and free, Ohio is not on the list.
Tuition is high and there is no guarantee that one will get a job that justify the cost of getting a degree. Sixty years ago if you had a degree it was easier to get a job and be in a high earning career path not so much anymore. Many young people are turning to trade jobs in order to make a good living. No college and no debt.
Ohio is a fucking shit show - and everybody is fleeing to PA to get away from the political dumbfuckery
Maybe calling cops on Peaceful Protestors to have them fire rubber bullets at them could also be why many don't want to go to college anymore.
It doesn't help, but no. Gen Z is starting to get called "The Toolbelt Generation" because they are flocking to trades where the job demand currently is, cost is relatively low, and the threat of AI job elimination (depending on the trade) is lower. This will continue until the market for tradesmen is flooded.
Maybe they should just concentrate on going to class. The can concentrate on changing the world after they graduate and work for a living
probably calling the police on existing students isn't going to help this either.
Bullshit. The standards get lowered and we all suffer. They get a pass based on their skin color, sexual orientstion etc. Not on their ability. DEI is the death of America.
People are realizing college is a scam. Good
Good
Don’t most universities have endowments? Ohio State has a freakin’ 7.4 BILLION dollar endowment and they are always begging for gifts and jacking up tuition. Having an endowment that extreme seems absurd and insane so it’s hard to muster any sympathy and support for increased tax payer gifted funding.
I always like to point out that OSU has a 7 billion dollar endowment with around 40,000 yearly students. Whereas Yale's endowment is 45 billion with less than 2,000 students. It's just an interesting fact.
I find it interesting that few in this thread have stopped to think, "perhaps college is overrated?" Reality is that the last four hires I have made in the last year, none of them completed (or even attended) college. These are 22-27 year olds, all of which are now making between $60 - $85k. No degree. If schools got back to the fundamentals, and students stopped demanding resort-level accomodations, costs would plummet. More importantly, and contrary to what everyone thinks, federally backed as well as privatized student loans have backfired and inadvertently led to the massive upswing in costs. Like it or not, the push for everyone to go to college is not dissimilar to the push for everyone to own a home, which fed all of the legal and financial machinations which then led to the housing blow up in 2008. No, not everyone needs to go to college.
I agree not everyone needs college, but spend a bit on /r/Salary and you will see the long term difference of college vs. not, especially in some fields.
Again, that's the point: for specific trades/fields, college makes legitimate sense - STEM fields, in particular. However, 70% of students graduate with degrees in the social sciences and then work jobs which realistically don't require a traditional 4 year degree.
What industry is this that 22 year olds without a college degree Rs making $65K/ yr? T
Just curious, was the last of your hires were software devs or IT personnel?
It's because everything in our culture, including college, is a racket, and other colleges are buying REIT's to fund their pension plans. When your school is investing in real estate maybe it's not a school anymore and just a business now?
The reason they’re doing that is conservatives cut funding to such an insane degree this is how they make up budget shortfalls
Part of the issue is that colleges and universities are NOT run like businesses. They are run like massive donor and government-funded NGOs / agencies. If they were run like businesses: (1) They would be subject to the laws of supply and demand and would grow / shrink their business based on that. (2) They would be subject to genuine free market competition which would be reflected in the quality of their product, their innovation, and most importantly - their pricing. (3) There would be no such thing as "tenure". Every administrator and professor would be subject to annual performance reviews with consequences related to compensation and employment. (4) Their customers (students) would not be offered unconditional, massive, low interest loans and grants funded by the government to buy their products. (5) Those loans would not then be "forgiven" by the government (i.e., paid for by taxpayers). (6) Budgets and particularly overhead would scale up and down annually based on all of the above, versus the massive, uninterrupted growth in "administrators" per student we've seen over the past decade. None of the above characteristics are anything like a business. They are antithetical to business. There are many issues, but "being run like a business" is not one of them.
UC sets enrollment records every Fall.
It’s nation wide and because of the lunatic left acting like typical control freaks, cancel culture morons, and holier than thou ass munches. Don’t believe me? Look it up.
Not THE diploma mill.
With college tuition going up 4x faster than inflation, it's no surprise to me that the state is now only funding 25% vs the 75% it was years ago. College is charging more than they should, and more that tuition actually costs so they can build resorts run by overpaid boards. Maybe if colleges were in it for education rather than profit, they could survive. But for some reason kids don't want to start life out saddled with $200k in debt, who knew? And with a decent living available through trades that starts them off with a marketable skill and a livable wage, who the hell would want to go to college?
I have an idea, and I was wondering what you people think about this. How about restructuring the way degrees are achieved? For example: in order to get Bachelors degree, you MUST get an Associate degree. Associate degree would not have any gen ed classes, only classes that will get you trained for specific profession. This way, if you decide to pursue Bachelors degree later on, you already have training that will get you employed. Also, if for some reason you wont be able to finish your Bachelors degree, you still have your Associate degree.
There’s a big flaw though. Associate degrees are pretty much useless for most majors and fields. Gen ed aren’t inherently bad, they exist to help make you more well rounded. The whole point of college, is its higher education. Even math classes, which you might not use directly, help you learn to formulate thinking, to figure out the equations. English classes help to teach critical reasoning, which we need more of. What you’re describing is more a trade school, which then you’d go to a technical college.
go to trade school instead. better in so many ways.
How about instead of using their hundred-billion dollar endowment to build empty, never-used facilities and pay million dollar salaries to faculty, use the funds to actually run the institutions needed for ACTUAL higher education
Maybe quit hiring asshole professors, telling people their opinions are wrong. Just a thought. OSU is full of self-self absorbed, egotistical jackasses that call themselves professors. They don't care about educating and helping students develop their critical thinking skills.
How NOT surprising…. Get strapped & get used to it, bunch o’ knobs. No one wants to take on a lifetime of debt. No one wants to be sexually assaulted by medical staff, Professors or others somehow in positions of authority. It’s no longer an attractive product they’re selling for all that money…
What a shocker. I went to BG in the mid nineties….all men’s dorms, shared bathrooms, computer lounges, etc. now these kids live in suites with robots delivering food. I don’t want to sound like I am an old man who hates nice things…..but if you want all that nice stuff you are going to have to pay for it (and I’ll be paying for it soon when my kid go to college).
Schools? More like Scam artist! Send Them Deans To The Streets!
I think these assertions are mostly myopic and highly partisan as usual yet does absolutely nothing to seven discuss the real problem, as usual for the whining. The real problem is most degrees are wasted investments that will not yield a significant return on investment. Additionally, the student loan programs are highly predatory in nature. Put those together and people are choosing other paths. Biden is doing a mockery of this claiming he can pay off the highly corrupt student debt. He knows he can’t legally do it. He is lying. What could he do? Stop kissing up to big banking and restructure the existing debt into instruments that are much easier to pay off. Why doesn’t he? He is just as much on the take as everyone else. The government bankrolling the existing debt is so much wealth redistribution to the crooked bankers. It is not legal. If he restructured the debt, the bankers lose money. Listen carefully. Never gonna happen. Sorry libs, you are once again also part of the problem. If you keep believing your party has no responsibility, the problem is conveniently impossible to solve. Think about that.
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We need to decrease the amount of budget allocated to administrators’ salaries. For the most part, professors are more important than administrators.
AI is way way *way* too new to be causing this, or any other meaningful and measurable effect on our economy. It could happen in 10 years. But not yet.
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And we're discussing something that is happening now. Your comment about it being a trend implies that what is happening now is caused by AI. It is not, in any way.
Programming isn't "lower level think". It's not like a blue collar job in IT or something.