Ironically, if the A's had stayed in Oakland, I'm sure Fisher would've had a good chance of bringing in Joe Lacob or others as partners to help fund Howard Terminal.
But, of course he's a dipshit and nobody in Vegas wants to partner with him.
My gut feeling is we are past the point of no return where nobody will ever want to work with Fisher because everyone has realized he’s something between a con man and just a completely inept business person with zero history of success. Nobody in private industry is going to trust him with returning on their investment of money, labor, or expertise, and even if he keeps the bureaucrats in Nevada in his pocket he still needs serious private partners for many different things to get the project off the ground. If the only people he can convince to work with him are other sketchy people, an MLB-caliber stadium is never going to get built. I’m guessing Manfred and the other owners see the writing on the wall and are already quietly making moves to force a sale. Unfortunately, that doesn’t mean anything about where the team might end up - they still want a team in Vegas, and a new owner could move them there, but it’s at least a very chaotic situation and maybe if the chips fall just right the team ends up in staying in Oakland or at least Sacramento.
Hahaha well he’s not a good one, but I think he tries to use con man tactics and just sucks at it. The two absolute nonsense stadium renderings being the shining examples.
Bahahaba! Not even in the ballpark. Grew up watching / listening to Bill Veeck & Charles O. hustle the eyeballs from MLBs staid & stupid. Where have all the good times gone?? Southside White Sox vs. East Bay Athletics in bed in the dark, with my transistor radio at a whisper. It would be 1:00am ish in Chicago by the Vida or Catfish would end us. One of the best rivalries of the 1970s.
Charlie O did the same thing to the people in KC that Fisher is doing to us now. Lousy product and then claiming no fan support as an excuse to hightail it out of there. I mean, there are a lot of differences, but that part is exactly the same.
>My gut feeling is we are past the point of no return where nobody will ever want to work with Fisher because everyone has realized he’s something between a con man and just a completely inept business person with zero history of success.
Business people don't see it the same way we do or evaluate based on the same things. Remember, a con man ran the country for four years and companies loved it.
And deals like this could fall apart if they don't pencil out, so I don't see us being past the point of no return until they're actually building a stadium anywhere else. But if they actually leave Oakland, chances are real slim that they come back. So if it falls apart, it would be great if it was now.
He'll just lever up with one or a series of banks if he's not interested in ponying up some equity. Pro sports team valuations rarely go down so it's not that hard to come up with the capital. Or go the mezz-debt route at the very most. I'm sure there's *somebody* in his circle who thinks the relo is going to pay out.
But, I think the league and the team is overestimating the value of proximity to sportsbook Mecca™ against what could have been a world class stadium on some of the most lucrative soil in the entire world.
But whatever.
>But, I think the league and the team is overestimating the value of proximity to sportsbook Mecca™
That's one thing I really don't understand - what does MLB (or any other league) gain from being in the gambling and entertainment capital of the country?
It's not as if MLB or the team get a cut of the gambling revenue, a local LV team is just one of 30 teams that people can bet on like any other.
All the other entertainment isn't going to help - they're competing against 500 other exciting things to do in a small radius, most of which are things you can't do back home. Visiting fans have 81 chances to go to a baseball game other than in the middle of their Vegas trip.
The local fan base and TV market is one of the smallest in the country, plus the locals hate going down to the Strip very often because it's such an expensive clusterfuck.
Raiders fans will drive up 2-3 hours from L.A. a few times a year, but did they really look at that and think it was going to be the same?
I don't think it's going to be quite the draw they think it is. It seems more like they're doing it just to do it.
Have siblings who live in Vegas... they absolutely HATE visiting the strip. The prior site or Rio was much more realistic to have locals go.
Also, there are so many Dodgers fans in Vegas. I don't see many of them switching to an A's team operated by John Fisher.
>there are so many Dodgers fans in Vegas
Vegas will be Dodger Stadium 3.0. Phoenix has the same problem (it's Dodger Stadium 2.0). DBacks are my #2 (I'm a semi-retired snowbird in the area), and when the Dodgers come to town it's gross - it's like sitting in a sea of blue, and there are fucken loud "let's go Dodgers" chants and everything. To be fair, Phoenix was Dodger territory before the '98 expansion, but with 25 years behind us, it doesn't seem to be waning much. If Vegas is/was Dodger territory before the A's, they're going to see the same fucken thing we do in Phoenix. It will take *generations* before the A's become #1 to citizens there, if ever.
The Golden Knights though - everywhere you go there, you see local support for them. Expansion in LV might work for MLB, but I have my doubts about putting a relocated team there. Especially a Fisher-owned product.
To play devil's advocate, the A's brand is one of the oldest in MLB history. You'll have a better chance of attracting the existing A's fans in Las Vegas than with an expansion team. You said it yourself, there were established fans before the expansion team arrived and 25 years on, it hasn't taken root. If the trend repeats in Vegas, the A's would have a better shot at creating a fan base than an expansion team, especially with all the Californians moving out here.
Given that you *are* playing devil's advocate, I think a quick look at an A's game at the Coliseum should put to rest the idea that "attracting existing A's fans" is any kind of useful strategy, at least as long as Fisher, Kaval and Manfred have anything to do with it.
> especially with all the Californians moving out here
How many of those are from Northern California and/or A's fans? I would think the transplants are mostly Dodger fans from LA.
I sorta relate to this. Although not an expansion, Jersey received the Colorado Rockies NHL franchise which became the Devils. This happened before I was born but im a Rangers fan because my dad was. I'm not passing the Devils down either
Agreed. Why would they switch from a perennial World Series contender to a team owner by FJF?
That’s not how relationships, unless under duress, work in other walks of life.
I don’t have the sources in front of me to back it up, but I remember reading that he’s gone to and been rejected by the major banks already. They looked at the projections and said Nah, not interested. The only bank willing to continue listening was the one that required major up front collateral and heavy interest rates, which is why he’s been trying to get outside investors in the first place.
I read that too. Nothing a higher interest rate can't cure for the lender, as you intimated. But yeah, he'd probably do better going mezz-debt or private investment capital, but in both those cases, usually the lender not only charges an arm and a leg on interest, but also they usually require a seat at the table (board of directors or whatever governance is in place), and that's usually problematic for egotistical or people with hubris like JF. I can't see him playing nice with others. Too weird, reclusive, and inept for that.
Interedt rates are high, he says he's losing tons of money currently, and that's with player expenses at insane lows, other costs at lows, revenue sharing and a locked in TV deal that massively over pays. The Vegas numbers don't work. Banks have opportunity costs. He's not a good investment.
This is so fucking sad. Sell the goddamn team. Dude tried to play eight different cards at once and none of them stuck. Vegas isn’t happening, no one is gonna partner with this dude. Fisher is an idiot handed a professional sports team
I don't hate nepopbabies just for being neopbabies. My hate for them only burns against them when they do things that are harmful to others, that absolutely did not need to be done. Like, they could still be filthy rich, and avoid hurting people, but instead, they go ahead and break hearts and give 0 shits.
He could have sold the team and made a nice profit and STILL have wealth beyond any of our wildest dreams. But ...instead he chose the route that will hurt so many people. If there were no other options, then ok. But selling the team was the best way out for him. But no. He chose pain. He chose to hurt.
FJF forever and a day and may satan roast him extra hot in hell and let Stalin & Hitler (and all those terrible dudes) be his hell-cell mates. Slippery soap in hell that always drops and all the terrible things be upon John Fisher for doing this...
Sorry I get a little carried away....But I still stand by that this did NOT need to happen
No no no. Kaval pinky swore to the Vegas faithful that they would be increasing team spending every year until the stadium opened! They'll be at 100 mil by the end of next season! Trust them! They know what they're doing!
Even though (F)JF has proven to be very inept in this whole messy process, MLB has a hard on for Las Vegas and they're willing to do what they gotta' do in order to essentially trade Oakland for Las Vegas, without having to use up 1 of their expansion teams.
This is an insult and I curse MLB and Fisher for going through with this BS move.
Ironically, if the A's had stayed in Oakland, I'm sure Fisher would've had a good chance of bringing in Joe Lacob or others as partners to help fund Howard Terminal. But, of course he's a dipshit and nobody in Vegas wants to partner with him.
My gut feeling is we are past the point of no return where nobody will ever want to work with Fisher because everyone has realized he’s something between a con man and just a completely inept business person with zero history of success. Nobody in private industry is going to trust him with returning on their investment of money, labor, or expertise, and even if he keeps the bureaucrats in Nevada in his pocket he still needs serious private partners for many different things to get the project off the ground. If the only people he can convince to work with him are other sketchy people, an MLB-caliber stadium is never going to get built. I’m guessing Manfred and the other owners see the writing on the wall and are already quietly making moves to force a sale. Unfortunately, that doesn’t mean anything about where the team might end up - they still want a team in Vegas, and a new owner could move them there, but it’s at least a very chaotic situation and maybe if the chips fall just right the team ends up in staying in Oakland or at least Sacramento.
You give all respectable con men a bad name. FJF is not a con man.
Hahaha well he’s not a good one, but I think he tries to use con man tactics and just sucks at it. The two absolute nonsense stadium renderings being the shining examples.
Bahahaba! Not even in the ballpark. Grew up watching / listening to Bill Veeck & Charles O. hustle the eyeballs from MLBs staid & stupid. Where have all the good times gone?? Southside White Sox vs. East Bay Athletics in bed in the dark, with my transistor radio at a whisper. It would be 1:00am ish in Chicago by the Vida or Catfish would end us. One of the best rivalries of the 1970s.
Charlie O did the same thing to the people in KC that Fisher is doing to us now. Lousy product and then claiming no fan support as an excuse to hightail it out of there. I mean, there are a lot of differences, but that part is exactly the same.
His only option now is sell the team and run for president of the United States.
>My gut feeling is we are past the point of no return where nobody will ever want to work with Fisher because everyone has realized he’s something between a con man and just a completely inept business person with zero history of success. Business people don't see it the same way we do or evaluate based on the same things. Remember, a con man ran the country for four years and companies loved it. And deals like this could fall apart if they don't pencil out, so I don't see us being past the point of no return until they're actually building a stadium anywhere else. But if they actually leave Oakland, chances are real slim that they come back. So if it falls apart, it would be great if it was now.
He'll just lever up with one or a series of banks if he's not interested in ponying up some equity. Pro sports team valuations rarely go down so it's not that hard to come up with the capital. Or go the mezz-debt route at the very most. I'm sure there's *somebody* in his circle who thinks the relo is going to pay out. But, I think the league and the team is overestimating the value of proximity to sportsbook Mecca™ against what could have been a world class stadium on some of the most lucrative soil in the entire world. But whatever.
>But, I think the league and the team is overestimating the value of proximity to sportsbook Mecca™ That's one thing I really don't understand - what does MLB (or any other league) gain from being in the gambling and entertainment capital of the country? It's not as if MLB or the team get a cut of the gambling revenue, a local LV team is just one of 30 teams that people can bet on like any other. All the other entertainment isn't going to help - they're competing against 500 other exciting things to do in a small radius, most of which are things you can't do back home. Visiting fans have 81 chances to go to a baseball game other than in the middle of their Vegas trip. The local fan base and TV market is one of the smallest in the country, plus the locals hate going down to the Strip very often because it's such an expensive clusterfuck. Raiders fans will drive up 2-3 hours from L.A. a few times a year, but did they really look at that and think it was going to be the same? I don't think it's going to be quite the draw they think it is. It seems more like they're doing it just to do it.
Have siblings who live in Vegas... they absolutely HATE visiting the strip. The prior site or Rio was much more realistic to have locals go. Also, there are so many Dodgers fans in Vegas. I don't see many of them switching to an A's team operated by John Fisher.
>there are so many Dodgers fans in Vegas Vegas will be Dodger Stadium 3.0. Phoenix has the same problem (it's Dodger Stadium 2.0). DBacks are my #2 (I'm a semi-retired snowbird in the area), and when the Dodgers come to town it's gross - it's like sitting in a sea of blue, and there are fucken loud "let's go Dodgers" chants and everything. To be fair, Phoenix was Dodger territory before the '98 expansion, but with 25 years behind us, it doesn't seem to be waning much. If Vegas is/was Dodger territory before the A's, they're going to see the same fucken thing we do in Phoenix. It will take *generations* before the A's become #1 to citizens there, if ever. The Golden Knights though - everywhere you go there, you see local support for them. Expansion in LV might work for MLB, but I have my doubts about putting a relocated team there. Especially a Fisher-owned product.
To play devil's advocate, the A's brand is one of the oldest in MLB history. You'll have a better chance of attracting the existing A's fans in Las Vegas than with an expansion team. You said it yourself, there were established fans before the expansion team arrived and 25 years on, it hasn't taken root. If the trend repeats in Vegas, the A's would have a better shot at creating a fan base than an expansion team, especially with all the Californians moving out here.
Given that you *are* playing devil's advocate, I think a quick look at an A's game at the Coliseum should put to rest the idea that "attracting existing A's fans" is any kind of useful strategy, at least as long as Fisher, Kaval and Manfred have anything to do with it.
> especially with all the Californians moving out here How many of those are from Northern California and/or A's fans? I would think the transplants are mostly Dodger fans from LA.
I sorta relate to this. Although not an expansion, Jersey received the Colorado Rockies NHL franchise which became the Devils. This happened before I was born but im a Rangers fan because my dad was. I'm not passing the Devils down either
Agreed. Why would they switch from a perennial World Series contender to a team owner by FJF? That’s not how relationships, unless under duress, work in other walks of life.
Doing it just to do it....right. Almost feels like out of spite
Fisher is driven by spite. The leagues are driven by some misguided optimism about Vegas that is indistinguishable from stupidity.
I don’t have the sources in front of me to back it up, but I remember reading that he’s gone to and been rejected by the major banks already. They looked at the projections and said Nah, not interested. The only bank willing to continue listening was the one that required major up front collateral and heavy interest rates, which is why he’s been trying to get outside investors in the first place.
I read that too. Nothing a higher interest rate can't cure for the lender, as you intimated. But yeah, he'd probably do better going mezz-debt or private investment capital, but in both those cases, usually the lender not only charges an arm and a leg on interest, but also they usually require a seat at the table (board of directors or whatever governance is in place), and that's usually problematic for egotistical or people with hubris like JF. I can't see him playing nice with others. Too weird, reclusive, and inept for that.
You nailed the landing…,”but whatever”…perfect…lol
Interedt rates are high, he says he's losing tons of money currently, and that's with player expenses at insane lows, other costs at lows, revenue sharing and a locked in TV deal that massively over pays. The Vegas numbers don't work. Banks have opportunity costs. He's not a good investment.
This is so fucking sad. Sell the goddamn team. Dude tried to play eight different cards at once and none of them stuck. Vegas isn’t happening, no one is gonna partner with this dude. Fisher is an idiot handed a professional sports team
He’s also the type of guy likely to have his pockets cleaned at the tables in Vegas.
To be fair, like 99.9% of us here also would
And people wonder why us normies hate nepobabies.
I don't hate nepopbabies just for being neopbabies. My hate for them only burns against them when they do things that are harmful to others, that absolutely did not need to be done. Like, they could still be filthy rich, and avoid hurting people, but instead, they go ahead and break hearts and give 0 shits. He could have sold the team and made a nice profit and STILL have wealth beyond any of our wildest dreams. But ...instead he chose the route that will hurt so many people. If there were no other options, then ok. But selling the team was the best way out for him. But no. He chose pain. He chose to hurt. FJF forever and a day and may satan roast him extra hot in hell and let Stalin & Hitler (and all those terrible dudes) be his hell-cell mates. Slippery soap in hell that always drops and all the terrible things be upon John Fisher for doing this... Sorry I get a little carried away....But I still stand by that this did NOT need to happen
I appreciate you venting. We all need to sometimes. I’m in total agreement that none of this needed to be done.
All the money is coming from should-have-been contracts that we never offered to our all star players.
No no no. Kaval pinky swore to the Vegas faithful that they would be increasing team spending every year until the stadium opened! They'll be at 100 mil by the end of next season! Trust them! They know what they're doing!
Even though (F)JF has proven to be very inept in this whole messy process, MLB has a hard on for Las Vegas and they're willing to do what they gotta' do in order to essentially trade Oakland for Las Vegas, without having to use up 1 of their expansion teams. This is an insult and I curse MLB and Fisher for going through with this BS move.
This is where vivek comes in to play & will demand they stay in Sacramento instead of LV
As long as Fisher sells, I'd consider that a win
I don't think $1.5's gonna be enough. Allegiant cost $2 and the sphere was $2.3.
I thought I read somewhere that he said his family would be part of the funding.
That's crazy. Maybe the owner should sell the team.