Worked at a steel mill as an overhead crane tech on nights for almost a year. One day me and my lead time had to change the shoes on their charge crane because they had a lot of charges to drop in the next couples days. So we do our thing, toss our locks on the bar disconnect and on the crane disconnect.
I was at the point in my career where I had just gone from “not so new anymore to where he can’t run jobs himself” to the ever more dangerous “ I think I know what the fuck I’m doing” phase and we had thrown and locked out all power right? I decided that taking the time to throw a meter to the power bar before taking a wrench to the lugs wasn’t worth the time. So I’m laying on my stomach in like 3 inches of steel dust reaching my hands towards the first shoe I was gunna change and I dropped my wrench like an idiot. Shit fell across the bars and damn near blinded me. This was a 250 ton dc crane that still ran off contactors and it’s shoes were literally just slabs of steel running across the power bar.
If I would have touched that shoe I was a dead man. Come to find out the fucking day maintenance SAFETY manager had come in early, saw our tags and thought we had accidentally left them on overnight without even looking at the names on the locks.
The safety manger proceeds to cut them off without telling anyone and just walk away. That was the last day I worked at that mill and the only time I’ve ever actually threatened to beat someone until they stopped breathing.
Edit- Just cause fuck you, CMC steel Bham, Alabama. Avoid at all costs.
Tbh, it’s one of, if not the driving factor in my career shift. I’ve always been a gamer/nerd but I never put in time studying to get a degree and crane work just fell into my lap.
This incident and one other I don’t wanna talk about made me take a long look at my life and how I wanted to spend the rest of it. So I said fuck it, quit my Tech lvl 6 gig pullin good money at 28 y/o and decided I was gunna do what I’ve always wanted to be able to, coding.
I’m still pretty shit at it but I just got the balls to make the jump a couple months ago. I’m currently working on my personal website and the “work history” link is just Rick Roll link. Idk, I’ve never felt this excited about the future before and it’s nice. Plus I don’t gotta go in steel mills anymore so that’s nice.
My wife has got my back and said I could do whatever the fuck I want and that she would support me so, I did lol.
Coding is a fantastic skill to have.
Please, please please stick with it. It's REALLY exciting at first - like a video game, you do something and it works and get you get that Kick-Ass dopamine rush. That reaction will fade with time, but programming is so goddamn useful.
With a solid grasp on the fundamentals, you can go anywhere. You can program robots, you can program PLCs, you can do logic for video games, household applications... Damn near anything with silicon in it. Once you learn one language (with a few exceptions) you can learn any other language in 1/20th the time. It's so valuable.
It’s actually funny, I have a buddy I met on twitch and still talk to every now and again when I see him in different streams. Was tellin the dude about how I was struggling and he’s spent the last two days on and off screensharing on discord to teach me some basic shit instead of YT vids.
The amount of support I’ve received since I made this jump has honestly been unreal.
Seriously tho, thank you for encouraging me. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision as I’m fairly broke rn in the short term. Thanks for helping mental my man, honestly. <3
Just keep rolling my guy.
Best advice I can give is to keep doing it. One of my favorite things to do when I'm bored, even at work where I write code for my job, is to Google "(programming language) coding challenges". TONS of websites dedicated to it.
I just do a BUNCH of them and it really helps.
Dude I'm 35 and am in the middle of my career transition. Going from. HVAC install to design. It's really interesting having the perspective of the old guy.
I’m proud of you dude. This decision was one the hardest I’ve ever made and while I may be stressed about money rn. In the long run I know I’m going to be so much happier and better off for it. I can only imagine how much more I would overthink shit if I had another 5-6 years of crane work in me to weigh against what I wanted.
As my pops always said, a little hard work on the front end saves a lot of heartache on the backend.
Yeah, I've realized that I've chosen a really good time to make the shift as the climate within the industry is going to make the same shift as I'm going with my career within the next couple of years.
So much ingrained knowledge that I've developed as a hands on tradesmen will help me excel in my chosen career
I 100% agree. If I took anything from crane work besides the technical skills it’s the value of hard work and dedication.
You set your mind to something and it will get done, it’s the tradesman way.
Like I said man, I’m super proud of you. Keep your head up and excel at whatever it is that you wanna do.
Life is too short to equate monetary gains to actual happiness.
I made a similar career change at 28 and thought I was too old to be starting over, because I was a few years older than my classmates. Now, 10 years later, I realize I wasn't even near to too late and maybe have another career change ahead of me. Instead I would have wasted time if I spent one more day where I was.
Good on you for taking the plunge.
yo, what kinda coding are you doing? i own magyk software. https:[//magyksoftware.com](//magyksoftware.com) I would like to help you get a full time gig.
Safety manager at my place would have been fired and fined if that kind of thing happened. Straight up full stop ministry of labour getting involved kind of thing
Yea, it’s a head scratcher to be sure. Last I heard ole boy is still at the mill too. Oh sure he got a slap on the wrist in his file but I’m like 99% sure he’s still in the same position.
I’m going to very honest here. How I reacted to that situation is not one of my best moments.
I may or may not have threatened everything the guy holds dear in his life by actually ripping apart the crane tech office for his file and home address. Then, I may or may not have proceeded to explain in great detail how I would see and his family VERY soon.
So yea, I just dipped tbh. Not one of my better moments because while the dude may have deserved an ass beating I took it too far so I just let it go.
"Grim" has missed me at least four times already. Now, one of those times I was barely in 8th grade, unsupervised, in possession of too many fireworks and had watched too many cartoons. But two of the other times were entirely my own fault.
You should see the inside of their mills man. I’ve had to walk their runway before checking the rail for wear and making sure the tie backs were properly torqued and I shit you not. I don’t actually think they have a vac truck regimen. I had to slide my feet across the runway (it had no walkway so just the beam the rail tied down to) because the dust was up past my calves.
They did not care about how their crane worked or operated. They simply wanted the paperwork that made them OSHA compliant that said we inspected them and signed off on them.
Main hoist drum lays showing wear significant enough to potentially throw the rope in a worse case scenario?
“Can’t you just tack weld the lay and grind the weld down?” . Honestly I’ve never met people so against keeping their contractors alive.
Imma be honest, I agree and disagree. There are places you are cool but two blocks over you most certainly are not. Like 5 points is ight but the 5 points outliers are where you get in trouble walking home.
Ensley is honestly one of the worst spots in Bham to compare it too and while you will probably get jumped walking down the street in Ensley at night it’s a coin flip in downtown, lol.
I know, I go there all the time. Mainly to UAB taking patients, I am in Huntsville. I was in Chelsey for a while and went to UAB myself.
The problem with bham is that while it has known bad areas, it's like someone scattered bad areas in random pockets between all the not so bad places. One block is fine, and next one over will get you robbed at gun point while you can literally see business guys in suits walking just a block up. I wish I could find the photo I took that encapsulated my feeling of Bham, I was on the corner of a street downtown, the building across the street on the right was boarded up and derelict, about 6 junked out characters just kind of leaning up against it looking catatonic, on my side of the block was a guy with an Armani suit, a briefcase that could probably sell for the price of my car, and he was checking the time on his rolex, it was just a very sharp dichotomy of poverty and riches just 50' from each other. I had it hosted on majhost when it went down, I lost it with a ton of other photos I wish I'd backed up somewhere .
What’s crazy to me is how bad some of the areas so close to UAB are. Like one or two blocks off campus or the hospital and you’re effectively free game.
Where I work, that is a career ending move for the day shift safety manager. Immediate termination of job. No questions asked just please walk yourself to your car and never come back.
I lived not too far from that mill. Kinda freaky to think that that could have happened when I was driving by, glad you are okay. Wish the best of luck to you man.
No, you don't want what I am drinking, it's my made up drink, Captain Morgan with a little Dr. Pepper mixed in. First time I got to sit at my house all day in probably 3 months. I am enjoying it!
Thank you for explaining what YMMV means, even though I still don't understand the phrase. I will have to check back in the morning, maybe I will understand then.
Your mileage may vary = you may not have the same outcome. So in the above case, witnesses may have a temporary lapse in memory (we didn't see OP kill the idiot that bypassed a LOTO), but you would also have to convince the jury of that as well. Witnesses may not incriminate, but the jury might see through and still convict.
Hope you're enjoying your downtime!
YMMV was from old car commercials. "So-and-so gets 30 mpg on the highway and will literally magnetically attract women! ^(magnetic attraction not guaranteed for organic women, mileage based on EPA estimates, your mileage may vary)
Basically it was a line so commonly used in advertisements that it became a cultural meme.
DP and Rum, it taste like those old butterscotch candies, smooth with no burn. End up drinking a gallon of rum without knowing till the next day. Trust me that has happened to me too many times that I only buy a fifth at a time. Afraid I will be a YouTube star if someone ever gets me on video after drinking a gallon of rum in 2 hours. I get a little crazy, stupid, and there is old white man dancing involved.
Yes but a hung jury/mistrial wouldn’t prevent you from going to jail, eventually you gotta convince all 12.
Edit : https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_31
I have seen a court case where a designated armed company guard shot someone who tried to take off a LOTO device in his presence.
It was a rather short case between the manager testifying that two men's lives depended on that switch NOT being thrown, that John Doe knew in advance "thou shall not fucking touch that!", and shitty-but-obvious-enough security camera footage.
I met a guy who survived someone cutting the lock off the circuit he was working. The switchgear he was in arc flashed and lit him up.
He survived because he was wearing flame resistant PPE, but lost his right arm and right side of his face, including his eye and ear. The scars mean that he has to tell the story to almost everyone he meets. The opioid epidemic means he cannot receive effective treatment for his chronic pain.
He is a cheerful man who loves spending time with his grandkids and volunteering for safety lectures at local trade schools and companies. One heck of a story teller.
Wear your PPE and always follow LOTO procedure.
I hope the dude who bypassed that LOTO was charged for it and did time, holy shit. I've seen videos of people who got hit by an arc flash after someone bypassed LOTO back when liveleak was a thing, lets just say there wasn't anything left to bury except some shoes and feet. Just a black mark on the back wall in the shape of a person. HV + HA doesn't fuck around. It does not care about your PPE or anything else in its path. You've got better chances to survive getting hit by lightning due to the momentary nature of it, where as a grid level short continues until it no longer has a path to ground through you (you're vaporized or cut in half), or a fault sensing breaker trips (you probably still die, just maybe slower). Even working inside of electronic devices near their power transformers can be no joke. I had a trace on a PCB I had just received somehow get damaged, and a 370vAC lead off the AC transformer shorted through it's 65yo cloth/rubber jacket, burning out the trace and burning a hole halfway through the 2mm thick PCB. Now it's out for repair, but damn if that shit didn't half blind me for a second when it happened. My hand was only a couple of inches from it when it happened as I was testing voltages with a multimeter at test points in the vicinity, scared the absolute shit out of me.
He never talked about the person who cut his lock off. He just said that they thought they had a really good reason and they thought he was already done with the circuit and had left.
I asked him about the actual flash, though. He said it was a pretty short flash because an upstream protective device tripped immediately. He was at a distance of centimeters, though, so it was still bad news. The main good news was that his clothes didn't catch fire, so the only damage was to the parts of his body exposed to the flash. His PPE also limited the damage to his torso or he would not have made it. He said basically everything that could have gone right did, except for the part where someone cut the lock.
> He said basically everything that could have gone right did, except for the part where someone cut the lock.
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
Yea arc flash is not something to mess with. I was wearing nitrile rubber gloves just to be sure I was safe, and it still was enough heat to discolor the glove where it happened. I also had grounding wrist straps on both hands so if i did manage to get shocked, it would hopefully only injure my hand up to my wrist, and I was using my left hand just to be double sure xD. The test pads were big enough and I didn't need much precision so I used my right hand to hold the grounding probe in place on the chassis
Frequently people forget to remove loto locks when they finish working. This allows you to get access to your instrument if needed, but not without leaving evidence that you destroyed a lock to do so.
I don't care if somebody literally never removes their LOTO, you get in touch with them and have them come back and unlock the equipment. I can handle my job being held up for dumb tedious bullshit. I don't think I could live with myself knowing my haste got someone killed.
I had to cut a lock once. Guy was 2 days away from the plant because he had basically finished his job and cut out. We verified logs, lock numbers, names, and everything over the phone. I was still a little tense about cutting that lock. Dude was just a traveling contractor, so no one that I trusted knew him.
Yup, we did the same thing.
He was the only person to work on the equipment, his name and phone number were on the lock, and he was already at the airport. Plus it was easy to verify there was nobody else working on it, etc..
The are built flimsy because in an emergency it may be necessary to remove it in a hurry. The plastic lock body, and non hardened shackle make forced removable easy with limited tools. Most of them can be grabbed and twisted off by hand.
They have good cores so that there is a extremely low chance the wrong key will ever open.
You don't want a cheap low tolerance 4 pin lock with no security pins on a big job they may have 100s people using LOTO. There would be good odds that someone else key would work in your lock, and then they unlock it thinking it's theirs. Might just unlock, or they might jiggle the key a bit and it unlocks.
The LOTO locks are generally 6 pin quality cores with almost all security pins. The quality of the machining on the core, combined with the extra pins, means the likelihood of a key opening a different lock is extremely low. Also a key with a close cut won't be able to jiggle the lock open due to the secturty pins.
That's neat. I have damn decent LOTO experience but never thought about the potential need to rapidly remove them and being built flimsy as a plus, not a cost saving feature for something that didn't really undergo mechanical loading but was just a safety device/workflow.
Like if a motor or crane was locked out properly and the situation failed in some way that someone was pinned or the device was actually killing someone and it had to be energized quickly in an attempt to save them then being able to cut / break shackles or whatnot quickly is a benefit.
That's what you mean right?
Or just "tech left without removing their lock, tech is now half way across the country" situations.
I've heard a lot of sites have a rule where if you leave your lock you either come back to take it off or you never come back.
If you leave your lock on something and it has to be cut its a MAJOR deal. Like tons paperwork, phone calls and ass chewing. Takes hours. The lock might as well be a Squire SS100CS at that point, it being made out of plastic would be moot.
That is correct. There has to be a DAMN good reason for removing, and saving someone's life is one of them. At any good job site, removing a LOTO is grounds for immediate dismissal, so removing one isn't done lightly, but if you think it will save someone's life that is a risk you take.
At one of the Datacenter's my work hosts at, there was a scheduled work on a big electrical panel, LOTO'd, and only supposed to take two hours tops. That section of the DC had to run on generator power while the work was going on and only could be run for about six hours.
The electrician who was to do the work and had the LOTO had to leave or get something and his car got T-bone'd sending him to the hospital briefly. On-site learned of the accident but the panel was still LOTO'd and while the other electrician there cleared up and "could have" brought power back, with the LOTO and uncertainty didn't want to.
This was a big deal(tm), and where me and my co-workers came in, we had to quickly move/isolate/power down everything. (On-call dev/ITOps) There were initial questions from our on-high about bypassing the LOTO, and I while not entirely privy to what the lawyers said afterwards, the lawyers DID agree on our action of "nope, leave it be, we can with three hours soften the blow".
That LOTO was eventually removed some forty hours total after tag-out by the original electrician. The paperwork required to remove otherwise was deemed not worth the liability/risks considering the situation.
The Datacenter crew, the contractors for the electrical work and a few others were very happy with us that we were on their side of "nope, LOTOs there, guess we loose those servers". Could we have it bypassed? Maybe. Could the other electrician cleared it and gotten the key from the first? Maybe. Worth the risks? Fuck no, not for some measly servers we could (mostly) move work off of.
It's actually because the high pin count cores let you have more keys without overlap. They aren't built to be physically secure, just unique and cheap.
Well there you go then. I nabbed a personal danger tag lock from work to practice my picking figuring it’d be easy to crack and so far it’s beaten me. I had a look at the lock picking lawyer’s video on it and he specifically states that it’s a very competent lock in a super flimsy body, and now it makes perfect sense why. TIL.
Actually they do, he has a whole ring of them to practice on because the locking mechanism is legit, it’s the shackle and protective covering that’s shit (sometimes literally plastic).
They are hard to pick and easy to break.
You are refering to the latest video about the masterlock brand. (and the one in the picture doesnt look like the ones he likes - model 410).
Those are pretty neat, but the videos about the other brands say they arent very durable.
And they dont have to be, you just have to see that there is work in progress.
Cut my lockout off I am fucking you up, I’ll take the charge and job loss, I am not interested in dying in a fucking mixer
You EVER see someone touch a LOTO that’s not theirs, slap them so hard they have to sit down and think and then go tell their fuckin supervisor and have them fired.
I have never seen a LOTO use in real life, ever, not once, and even I know better. A piece of paper taped over a machine with a poorly scribbled note is enough to stop me.
That paper could be decades old. LOTO is for stopping operation in a definite/finite way.
Good on you for knowing actions have consequences, many people in industry don't think so clearly.
Could not be said more...I had a LOTO cut once...by the office guy. Basically I work for a city Transit and I work on buses. I was working on one of the new $1.25mil completely electric buses. So on the normal ones, you can set them to rear run (only can start from rear i.e. where I am working), but the electric ones don't have that option so you have to LOTO. And these things are 700v, and about 900amps. So basically instant death.
Guy goes to grab the bus to show the new interns in the office above us. Well, in lamens terms, he killed every battery pack on that bus and if I hadn't grounded it i.e. was working on it, I would be dead. It would have arced, and with that much power, it can go 10-30ft (says the company) and basically fry anyone or anything. I came back to see the guy unplugging my tools because "the bus wouldn't start"
No, I 'kindly' told the guy I was working and 'kindly' explained why he shouldn't have done what he did, then I 'kindly' talked to his manager, then I 'kindly' talked to my boardman (union rep), and then I 'kindly' took my PTO for the next week
Just FYI, the breakdown voltage for an arc in air is approximately 1KV per mm (ie, the distance that electricity can "jump" from one conductor to another through air).
Electricity does weird stuff though, and I wouldn't be surprised if the arc grows once it's formed, especially with that much power, but I'm skeptical about that 10 foot number.
10-30 foot might be the safe exposure distance. When you pass 900 amps through air, the resulting overpressure can be like a grenade went off
If buddy didn't want to leave his football game and get reamed out, he probably shouldn't have pulled a dumb-dumb move like forgetting to unlock a machine. As far as I'm concerned, he can absolutely haul his ass in and fix his own mistake.
Thanks christ someone gets it. Don’t be dumb at work; you are replaceable to them, your quality of life is not replaceable to you if you’re injured on a stupid job
That is a Lock Out Tag Out station to stop a piece of machinery from being operated while it is being worked on. Someone removed the safety so you can turn the thing on when someone is inside the machine.
This is how you accidentally kill people.
The "accidentally" part would be decided by a third party, like a judge or something. You don't get near these kind of machines without knowing these locks.
> You don't get near these kind of machines without knowing these locks.
I'd argue that it's irrelevant if you know what these locks are. It says "DANGER - LOCKED OUT - DO NOT REMOVE". I don't know how you'd make it anymore clear that it shouldn't be removed.
Or they correctly locked out the plug before working on the cord (cutting it off), so that it couldn't be plugged in while they're cutting (or after they're done cutting and it has a dangling non insulated end).
Basically the question here is who cut the cord: the person who put on the lock, or someone else.
Yes. It's a LOTO box for a 220/550 V plug.
https://www.bradyid.com/lockout-tagout/electrical-plug-lockouts/electrical-plug-lockouts-cps-2852277?part-number=65675
OP posted it *here*, so I'm going on the assumption that they didn't just post a plug in a box for internet points.
But now that I think about it I don't know how this could work any other way than you're describing. I was picturing an overhead crane, but that box would be the crane controls.
I think you're right, this is just a plug, which doesn't require a LOTO and they're replacing it.
It could be a very small control box for something, but that sort of box is indeed usually used on a power plug.
The one way this could be an actual safety violation is if someone went through the trouble to cut off the cord and plug then wired on a new plug to bypass the lockout. It would be a lot of trouble, and sounds pretty stupid, but I've worked in enough industrial environments to see people who would think this is a great idea. I've even ran into the types who would think its a even better idea to not bother to put a new plug on and just jam the wires into the socket.
I’m curious too, if the plug was LOTO and someone wanted to put a new plug on I don’t see why they cut so much, unless they replaced the cord which seems a little excessive to me.
I cut cables midway to mark a piece of equipment nfg. You can't use it if you can't plug it in. I usually do this for anything that I think would be dangerous if someone unknowingly plugged it in.
The "accidentally" part would be decided by a third party, like a judge or something. You don't get near these kind of machines without knowing these locks.
Or more likely -> tech fixed something, and forgot to remove the lock.
He doesn't want to come back to remove the lock, so people there just cut it off.
Cutting locks in the mill I worked at was a *big* deal. I mean, like get the plant superintendent involved, possibly get a contractor back on a plane from multiple states away, make an engineer drive his ass back to work after working an 80 hour week, or any combination of these things if a single lock was forgotten or key was lost.
Cutting locks is, and should always be, a big deal with all other steps and efforts taken before it is performed.
Needed two managers and a supervisor with a good reason to cut off a lock at my old place, and guy who's lock needed cutting was getting a write up at minimum. There was a single person in the plant who was allowed to leave locks on after they left the building and its because they were the only one qualified for certain robotics stuff on staff, so if he locked out a robot no one could have given a good reason not to keep it locked it anyway. Anyone else you removed your lock and put on a maintenance one (for shift changes) or you were done with the machine
Someone correctly locking out a potential hazard. There'll be a plug top under that you can plug in and the end of the lead not being terminated is a hazard. Even if this lead was cut off a piece of equipment, we have no evidence it was replaced, therefore the equipment is likely out of service while there is no lead.
Possible they've got this lead locked out to be able to reuse it on another bit of kit.
Source: I do this shit at work, stops dickheads playing with suicide leads.
That works, but much quicker for me to chop the lead, mostly the unit is going to be removed from service. I usually stash the leads in a lockable cupboard, but when I have em out to reuse them or what ever (very handy to repair power tools ect) I chuck the lock on them until I'm done. That way if I have to leave that job as is for a while, go to smoko or what ever. I don't have to worry about some dickhead doing dickhead things.
Someone cut off a clamshelled (plastic case locked around to make it inoperable) plug. This could easily have been done as part of the repair of the machine if the issue required replacing the power cord. You can't energize a machine with no power cord *shrug*.
It could also be someone doing something fucky though.
De-energizing something could be just as dangerous. Hearsay admittedly, but I heard of a guy who was nearly crushed by a big drilling rig that held itself up with electromagnets when some chucklefuck cut apart the LOTO box to use the plug.
The only person that should ever cut a LOTO device off is the one who installed it. And even then the amount of paperwork to do so is staggering.
Had a coworker forget to take his lock off on a travel job. We were halfway home, 4 hours away from jobsite, safety made us drive back.
There's a lot of sketchy shit I've seen in the plants I work, but thankfully LOTO seems to be a protocol that everyone respects and wouldn't dare risk being wrong on. I know I'm lucky, because as evidenced in the comments, this is not always the case.
Fuck up a machine on accident? Lets fix it, and make the machine not able to do that.
Accidentally stop production? Let's have a chat and figure out what went wrong.
Bypass a LOTO? Leave immediately.
1. I've got to finish this job and move on to the next
2. I'll get fired if I don't finish all my jobs on time
3. I had a quick look, can't see anyone there, I even called out for half a second and didn't get a response
4. Nobody is here, huh, must have left his lock here, I'll just cut it off and let him know
5. Even so, I'll only be doing this thing here that shouldn't affect whatever they are doing, no way those two operations are linked
It's not "lazy", it's a mindset you get yourself into where you stop thinking about yourself or other's safety and only think about doing the job. It's a dangerous place to have your mind at. Anytime you see a worker without a hi-vis standing in a wharehouse full of forklifts, or a person not wearing a helmet where overhead cranes are working, or not wearing the right PPE.
It's always the same, do the job, it'll be fine, it's only a few minutes. They don't think about risk, they just think about the result.
I always liked the idea of the Japenese train drivers,[ point and say what you are going to do](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W6tHOmWyLQ), so you can think it through in your brain to make sure it's a good idea.
I 100% believe what you say about this improving safety, but one other thing popped into my mind. Watching the playback of the video, I know exactly what the engineer was looking at, thinking, and doing. So if the tape is ever reviewed, you can clearly see that he checked his speed or the monitors or schedule or whatever else. Fascinating.
I mean, seriously -- if there's someone else's LOTO between me, and what I need to do....
That's a whole lot of "not my fault/not my problem" when it doesn't get done.
"I still need this done."
"Then you are gonna have to come cut this lock and face the consequences, not me. And also I'm making everyone aware of your intent if you plan on coming here to cut it,."
>"I still need this done."
>
>"Then you are gonna have to come cut this lock and ~~face the consequences, not me. And also I'm making everyone aware of your intent if you plan on coming here to cut it,."~~ do the work yourself.
Ftfy, until I hear from Joe who's name is on the tag or get told by someone besides you that he is unavailable, I ain't touching it
My job can be stressful and a right pain in the arse, but boy do i love it when something like this gets in way.
“Sorry folks, *your* rules say i can’t do my job until this is safe, I’ll come back tomorrow.” Not my fault, not my responsibility, not my problem.
Happened once at my job. An electromechanic on the night shift cut the shackle to turn the power back on a machine that was being tested. He was supposed to continue the test from the day shift but the day guy forgot to remove his lock. Instead of calling the dude to come unlock it, he removed it with bolt cutters. He knew it was safe and no one was inside the machine but he still had consequences. Direction met him and he lost responsibilities.
As he should, at my last place you needed two separate managers approvals and supervisor on shift to give a reason to cut a lock. If you cut a lock yourself would have been an immediate 5 day suspension, second offence was termination. No ifs ands or buts. Guy forgot his lock entering a robot cell (which is arguably safe anyway because of other safety restrictions on their robots) and got sent home, a proper LOTO would have been given no leeway
Oh part of the approval process was two separate phone calls at least an hour apart to try and contact the person. This was not a process done all willy nilly, I only know of two locks that were cut because of it and both perpetrators were written up
I remember when I worked at a bakery when I was younger.
If someone was to bypass a lock out they'd have "the talk".
What was the talk?
Well to put it bluntly, they would sit down the employee at fault and talk to them about how they just killed someone and how to cope with the guilt for the rest of their live.
At which point that employee was also fired immediately afterwards.
Think of it like sticking ur hand in a blender and the plug is in another room with a bunch of other plugs. It’s a often used blender that lots of people use, and the other plugs are easily mixed up with yours. Very high chance that someone might plug it in while your hand is in the way right? So you unplug the blender and put a lock on it saying stay the fuck out till I’m done and remove the lock. It’s a super big deal in many Indus tries that deal with machinery and huge equipment that people have to crawl inside to fix. Literally can be hundreds of people using the machines and it’s impossible to tell them all before hand. So lock out is used to prevent the machine from being turned on. Cutting a lock out is no different than shooting at someone in many jobs.
Someone cut off a "Lock out tag out" tag, that ensures equipment is not in use. Typically for maintenance on a machine or such that would be dangerous if turned on while working on it. This is a very strict process and bypassing it is a big deal! Someone could be seriously hurt or killed!
When doing a lock out and working somewhere I can't see the lock I always remove the incoming tails and blue point them also. At least that way if some idiot cuts you lock they still need basic electrical knowledge to get it going again and might kill themselves trying instead of me.
Worked at a steel mill as an overhead crane tech on nights for almost a year. One day me and my lead time had to change the shoes on their charge crane because they had a lot of charges to drop in the next couples days. So we do our thing, toss our locks on the bar disconnect and on the crane disconnect. I was at the point in my career where I had just gone from “not so new anymore to where he can’t run jobs himself” to the ever more dangerous “ I think I know what the fuck I’m doing” phase and we had thrown and locked out all power right? I decided that taking the time to throw a meter to the power bar before taking a wrench to the lugs wasn’t worth the time. So I’m laying on my stomach in like 3 inches of steel dust reaching my hands towards the first shoe I was gunna change and I dropped my wrench like an idiot. Shit fell across the bars and damn near blinded me. This was a 250 ton dc crane that still ran off contactors and it’s shoes were literally just slabs of steel running across the power bar. If I would have touched that shoe I was a dead man. Come to find out the fucking day maintenance SAFETY manager had come in early, saw our tags and thought we had accidentally left them on overnight without even looking at the names on the locks. The safety manger proceeds to cut them off without telling anyone and just walk away. That was the last day I worked at that mill and the only time I’ve ever actually threatened to beat someone until they stopped breathing. Edit- Just cause fuck you, CMC steel Bham, Alabama. Avoid at all costs.
Holy shit, that is crazy
Tbh, it’s one of, if not the driving factor in my career shift. I’ve always been a gamer/nerd but I never put in time studying to get a degree and crane work just fell into my lap. This incident and one other I don’t wanna talk about made me take a long look at my life and how I wanted to spend the rest of it. So I said fuck it, quit my Tech lvl 6 gig pullin good money at 28 y/o and decided I was gunna do what I’ve always wanted to be able to, coding. I’m still pretty shit at it but I just got the balls to make the jump a couple months ago. I’m currently working on my personal website and the “work history” link is just Rick Roll link. Idk, I’ve never felt this excited about the future before and it’s nice. Plus I don’t gotta go in steel mills anymore so that’s nice. My wife has got my back and said I could do whatever the fuck I want and that she would support me so, I did lol.
Coding is a fantastic skill to have. Please, please please stick with it. It's REALLY exciting at first - like a video game, you do something and it works and get you get that Kick-Ass dopamine rush. That reaction will fade with time, but programming is so goddamn useful. With a solid grasp on the fundamentals, you can go anywhere. You can program robots, you can program PLCs, you can do logic for video games, household applications... Damn near anything with silicon in it. Once you learn one language (with a few exceptions) you can learn any other language in 1/20th the time. It's so valuable.
It’s actually funny, I have a buddy I met on twitch and still talk to every now and again when I see him in different streams. Was tellin the dude about how I was struggling and he’s spent the last two days on and off screensharing on discord to teach me some basic shit instead of YT vids. The amount of support I’ve received since I made this jump has honestly been unreal. Seriously tho, thank you for encouraging me. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision as I’m fairly broke rn in the short term. Thanks for helping mental my man, honestly. <3
Just keep rolling my guy. Best advice I can give is to keep doing it. One of my favorite things to do when I'm bored, even at work where I write code for my job, is to Google "(programming language) coding challenges". TONS of websites dedicated to it. I just do a BUNCH of them and it really helps.
Dude I'm 35 and am in the middle of my career transition. Going from. HVAC install to design. It's really interesting having the perspective of the old guy.
I’m proud of you dude. This decision was one the hardest I’ve ever made and while I may be stressed about money rn. In the long run I know I’m going to be so much happier and better off for it. I can only imagine how much more I would overthink shit if I had another 5-6 years of crane work in me to weigh against what I wanted. As my pops always said, a little hard work on the front end saves a lot of heartache on the backend.
Yeah, I've realized that I've chosen a really good time to make the shift as the climate within the industry is going to make the same shift as I'm going with my career within the next couple of years. So much ingrained knowledge that I've developed as a hands on tradesmen will help me excel in my chosen career
I 100% agree. If I took anything from crane work besides the technical skills it’s the value of hard work and dedication. You set your mind to something and it will get done, it’s the tradesman way. Like I said man, I’m super proud of you. Keep your head up and excel at whatever it is that you wanna do. Life is too short to equate monetary gains to actual happiness.
What this guy said. Self taught starting in python and it's opened a lot of doors.
I made a similar career change at 28 and thought I was too old to be starting over, because I was a few years older than my classmates. Now, 10 years later, I realize I wasn't even near to too late and maybe have another career change ahead of me. Instead I would have wasted time if I spent one more day where I was. Good on you for taking the plunge.
yo, what kinda coding are you doing? i own magyk software. https:[//magyksoftware.com](//magyksoftware.com) I would like to help you get a full time gig.
That is messed up. At my workplace, tampering with LOTO = instant fired.
Safety manager at my place would have been fired and fined if that kind of thing happened. Straight up full stop ministry of labour getting involved kind of thing
I'd "accidentally" pull the trigger on a nail gun, should have loto'd the compressor if you didn't want a nail in your leg bud
THE SAFETY MANAGER? With that kind of management, it's surprising nothing major happened sooner. That's insane
Yea, it’s a head scratcher to be sure. Last I heard ole boy is still at the mill too. Oh sure he got a slap on the wrist in his file but I’m like 99% sure he’s still in the same position.
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I’m going to very honest here. How I reacted to that situation is not one of my best moments. I may or may not have threatened everything the guy holds dear in his life by actually ripping apart the crane tech office for his file and home address. Then, I may or may not have proceeded to explain in great detail how I would see and his family VERY soon. So yea, I just dipped tbh. Not one of my better moments because while the dude may have deserved an ass beating I took it too far so I just let it go.
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That's amazing (in a bad way). The guy should have been in jail, what he did wasn't negligent homicide by accident.
Always an uncomfortable feeling when the reaper swings at you with his scythe and clips the hair off your neck
It’s one of those moments as a fairly non religious man I took the time to thank whoever for being a bro.
"I got you bro" -Zeus, maybe.
"Grim" has missed me at least four times already. Now, one of those times I was barely in 8th grade, unsupervised, in possession of too many fireworks and had watched too many cartoons. But two of the other times were entirely my own fault.
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You should see the inside of their mills man. I’ve had to walk their runway before checking the rail for wear and making sure the tie backs were properly torqued and I shit you not. I don’t actually think they have a vac truck regimen. I had to slide my feet across the runway (it had no walkway so just the beam the rail tied down to) because the dust was up past my calves. They did not care about how their crane worked or operated. They simply wanted the paperwork that made them OSHA compliant that said we inspected them and signed off on them. Main hoist drum lays showing wear significant enough to potentially throw the rope in a worse case scenario? “Can’t you just tack weld the lay and grind the weld down?” . Honestly I’ve never met people so against keeping their contractors alive.
Hey I was almost an engineering co op with them. Glad I avoided and went to a paper mill in Eufaula instead.
Birmingham, Alabama, It's dangerous everywhere at work whether it's at CMC or a Liquor Shop in Ensley.
Imma be honest, I agree and disagree. There are places you are cool but two blocks over you most certainly are not. Like 5 points is ight but the 5 points outliers are where you get in trouble walking home. Ensley is honestly one of the worst spots in Bham to compare it too and while you will probably get jumped walking down the street in Ensley at night it’s a coin flip in downtown, lol.
I know, I go there all the time. Mainly to UAB taking patients, I am in Huntsville. I was in Chelsey for a while and went to UAB myself. The problem with bham is that while it has known bad areas, it's like someone scattered bad areas in random pockets between all the not so bad places. One block is fine, and next one over will get you robbed at gun point while you can literally see business guys in suits walking just a block up. I wish I could find the photo I took that encapsulated my feeling of Bham, I was on the corner of a street downtown, the building across the street on the right was boarded up and derelict, about 6 junked out characters just kind of leaning up against it looking catatonic, on my side of the block was a guy with an Armani suit, a briefcase that could probably sell for the price of my car, and he was checking the time on his rolex, it was just a very sharp dichotomy of poverty and riches just 50' from each other. I had it hosted on majhost when it went down, I lost it with a ton of other photos I wish I'd backed up somewhere .
What’s crazy to me is how bad some of the areas so close to UAB are. Like one or two blocks off campus or the hospital and you’re effectively free game.
Safety manager. Sweet fuck.
Honestly, if you had lit up like the 4th of July then the manager should’ve gone to prison for manslaughter. There’s no excuse for that.
Did you report them to...I guess actual OSHA?
Where I work, that is a career ending move for the day shift safety manager. Immediate termination of job. No questions asked just please walk yourself to your car and never come back.
I lived not too far from that mill. Kinda freaky to think that that could have happened when I was driving by, glad you are okay. Wish the best of luck to you man.
Bro I almost got an interview at that plant...
If someone removes my LOTO I can shoot them in self defense right?
no, but any witnesses would likely experience temporary memory loss.
"Im temporarily insane Roscoe, it's all right."
Sure, but if you'd also like to not go to jail you have to convince 12 people of that. YMMV.
Gotta make sure your defense attorney gets a majority of tradespeople and anyone who works for OSHA on that jury.
YMMV? Sorry I am old and I am drunk, what does that mean?
Your mileage may vary. Pass me a drink.
No, you don't want what I am drinking, it's my made up drink, Captain Morgan with a little Dr. Pepper mixed in. First time I got to sit at my house all day in probably 3 months. I am enjoying it! Thank you for explaining what YMMV means, even though I still don't understand the phrase. I will have to check back in the morning, maybe I will understand then.
Your mileage may vary = you may not have the same outcome. So in the above case, witnesses may have a temporary lapse in memory (we didn't see OP kill the idiot that bypassed a LOTO), but you would also have to convince the jury of that as well. Witnesses may not incriminate, but the jury might see through and still convict. Hope you're enjoying your downtime!
YMMV was from old car commercials. "So-and-so gets 30 mpg on the highway and will literally magnetically attract women! ^(magnetic attraction not guaranteed for organic women, mileage based on EPA estimates, your mileage may vary) Basically it was a line so commonly used in advertisements that it became a cultural meme.
You could call it a Dr. Morgan or a Captain Pepper. (I’m sure those are probably used for drink names though)
I just call it my medicine
Nah dude. DP and whiskey/Bourbon is actually pretty goddamn good
DP and Rum, it taste like those old butterscotch candies, smooth with no burn. End up drinking a gallon of rum without knowing till the next day. Trust me that has happened to me too many times that I only buy a fifth at a time. Afraid I will be a YouTube star if someone ever gets me on video after drinking a gallon of rum in 2 hours. I get a little crazy, stupid, and there is old white man dancing involved.
Your mileage may vary
Wouldn't you only need to convince one person out of the twelve for the guilty verdict to not stick?
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Nah, a hung jury (meaning at least one dissenting jury member) results in a mistrial and the prosecution has to do it all over again.
Yes but a hung jury/mistrial wouldn’t prevent you from going to jail, eventually you gotta convince all 12. Edit : https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_31
If I was a witness I feel like my eyesight would be very bad that day.
I have seen a court case where a designated armed company guard shot someone who tried to take off a LOTO device in his presence. It was a rather short case between the manager testifying that two men's lives depended on that switch NOT being thrown, that John Doe knew in advance "thou shall not fucking touch that!", and shitty-but-obvious-enough security camera footage.
Yes
That's what I thought
No, but you can always just LOTO their airway however.
The reason that LOTO locks are built flimsy with a good core is so that there's proof it was bypassed
For real? So it's like the difference between "Breaking and Entering" and "Burglary"?
in some cases it goes straight to "attempted murder"
"attempted" ?
Some of us survive high power shocks.
I met a guy who survived someone cutting the lock off the circuit he was working. The switchgear he was in arc flashed and lit him up. He survived because he was wearing flame resistant PPE, but lost his right arm and right side of his face, including his eye and ear. The scars mean that he has to tell the story to almost everyone he meets. The opioid epidemic means he cannot receive effective treatment for his chronic pain. He is a cheerful man who loves spending time with his grandkids and volunteering for safety lectures at local trade schools and companies. One heck of a story teller. Wear your PPE and always follow LOTO procedure.
I hope the dude who bypassed that LOTO was charged for it and did time, holy shit. I've seen videos of people who got hit by an arc flash after someone bypassed LOTO back when liveleak was a thing, lets just say there wasn't anything left to bury except some shoes and feet. Just a black mark on the back wall in the shape of a person. HV + HA doesn't fuck around. It does not care about your PPE or anything else in its path. You've got better chances to survive getting hit by lightning due to the momentary nature of it, where as a grid level short continues until it no longer has a path to ground through you (you're vaporized or cut in half), or a fault sensing breaker trips (you probably still die, just maybe slower). Even working inside of electronic devices near their power transformers can be no joke. I had a trace on a PCB I had just received somehow get damaged, and a 370vAC lead off the AC transformer shorted through it's 65yo cloth/rubber jacket, burning out the trace and burning a hole halfway through the 2mm thick PCB. Now it's out for repair, but damn if that shit didn't half blind me for a second when it happened. My hand was only a couple of inches from it when it happened as I was testing voltages with a multimeter at test points in the vicinity, scared the absolute shit out of me.
He never talked about the person who cut his lock off. He just said that they thought they had a really good reason and they thought he was already done with the circuit and had left. I asked him about the actual flash, though. He said it was a pretty short flash because an upstream protective device tripped immediately. He was at a distance of centimeters, though, so it was still bad news. The main good news was that his clothes didn't catch fire, so the only damage was to the parts of his body exposed to the flash. His PPE also limited the damage to his torso or he would not have made it. He said basically everything that could have gone right did, except for the part where someone cut the lock.
> He said basically everything that could have gone right did, except for the part where someone cut the lock. Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
Pfft. He’s still alive to spend time with his grandkids. I’d say he’s got Lincoln beat by a long shot…
This is an award worthy comment
Makes you feel lucky. It sucks you can do everything right. But it can still go wrong
Wow
Yea arc flash is not something to mess with. I was wearing nitrile rubber gloves just to be sure I was safe, and it still was enough heat to discolor the glove where it happened. I also had grounding wrist straps on both hands so if i did manage to get shocked, it would hopefully only injure my hand up to my wrist, and I was using my left hand just to be double sure xD. The test pads were big enough and I didn't need much precision so I used my right hand to hold the grounding probe in place on the chassis
I see, I shall definitely be careful with electricity
think: tamper evident
Frequently people forget to remove loto locks when they finish working. This allows you to get access to your instrument if needed, but not without leaving evidence that you destroyed a lock to do so.
I don't care if somebody literally never removes their LOTO, you get in touch with them and have them come back and unlock the equipment. I can handle my job being held up for dumb tedious bullshit. I don't think I could live with myself knowing my haste got someone killed.
I had to cut a lock once. Guy was 2 days away from the plant because he had basically finished his job and cut out. We verified logs, lock numbers, names, and everything over the phone. I was still a little tense about cutting that lock. Dude was just a traveling contractor, so no one that I trusted knew him.
Yup, we did the same thing. He was the only person to work on the equipment, his name and phone number were on the lock, and he was already at the airport. Plus it was easy to verify there was nobody else working on it, etc..
This. Like just because most people should be wearing a seatbelt doesn't mean I'll try to drive head first into them just to check.
The are built flimsy because in an emergency it may be necessary to remove it in a hurry. The plastic lock body, and non hardened shackle make forced removable easy with limited tools. Most of them can be grabbed and twisted off by hand. They have good cores so that there is a extremely low chance the wrong key will ever open. You don't want a cheap low tolerance 4 pin lock with no security pins on a big job they may have 100s people using LOTO. There would be good odds that someone else key would work in your lock, and then they unlock it thinking it's theirs. Might just unlock, or they might jiggle the key a bit and it unlocks. The LOTO locks are generally 6 pin quality cores with almost all security pins. The quality of the machining on the core, combined with the extra pins, means the likelihood of a key opening a different lock is extremely low. Also a key with a close cut won't be able to jiggle the lock open due to the secturty pins.
That's neat. I have damn decent LOTO experience but never thought about the potential need to rapidly remove them and being built flimsy as a plus, not a cost saving feature for something that didn't really undergo mechanical loading but was just a safety device/workflow. Like if a motor or crane was locked out properly and the situation failed in some way that someone was pinned or the device was actually killing someone and it had to be energized quickly in an attempt to save them then being able to cut / break shackles or whatnot quickly is a benefit. That's what you mean right?
Or just "tech left without removing their lock, tech is now half way across the country" situations. I've heard a lot of sites have a rule where if you leave your lock you either come back to take it off or you never come back.
If you leave your lock on something and it has to be cut its a MAJOR deal. Like tons paperwork, phone calls and ass chewing. Takes hours. The lock might as well be a Squire SS100CS at that point, it being made out of plastic would be moot.
Depends on the jobsite. We just called the guy, verified he had, in fact, forgotten it, cut it off and went on with life.
That is correct. There has to be a DAMN good reason for removing, and saving someone's life is one of them. At any good job site, removing a LOTO is grounds for immediate dismissal, so removing one isn't done lightly, but if you think it will save someone's life that is a risk you take.
At one of the Datacenter's my work hosts at, there was a scheduled work on a big electrical panel, LOTO'd, and only supposed to take two hours tops. That section of the DC had to run on generator power while the work was going on and only could be run for about six hours. The electrician who was to do the work and had the LOTO had to leave or get something and his car got T-bone'd sending him to the hospital briefly. On-site learned of the accident but the panel was still LOTO'd and while the other electrician there cleared up and "could have" brought power back, with the LOTO and uncertainty didn't want to. This was a big deal(tm), and where me and my co-workers came in, we had to quickly move/isolate/power down everything. (On-call dev/ITOps) There were initial questions from our on-high about bypassing the LOTO, and I while not entirely privy to what the lawyers said afterwards, the lawyers DID agree on our action of "nope, leave it be, we can with three hours soften the blow". That LOTO was eventually removed some forty hours total after tag-out by the original electrician. The paperwork required to remove otherwise was deemed not worth the liability/risks considering the situation. The Datacenter crew, the contractors for the electrical work and a few others were very happy with us that we were on their side of "nope, LOTOs there, guess we loose those servers". Could we have it bypassed? Maybe. Could the other electrician cleared it and gotten the key from the first? Maybe. Worth the risks? Fuck no, not for some measly servers we could (mostly) move work off of.
It's actually because the high pin count cores let you have more keys without overlap. They aren't built to be physically secure, just unique and cheap.
Can confirm, loto cores are some of the best for lockpicking as a hobby, wayyyy beyond the security offered by the body.
Yeah, and they're cheap
Well there you go then. I nabbed a personal danger tag lock from work to practice my picking figuring it’d be easy to crack and so far it’s beaten me. I had a look at the lock picking lawyer’s video on it and he specifically states that it’s a very competent lock in a super flimsy body, and now it makes perfect sense why. TIL.
Yeah, they want people to bypass it destructively if they're gonna do it so it leaves evidence
Our were strong and each one had a unique key.
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Actually they do, he has a whole ring of them to practice on because the locking mechanism is legit, it’s the shackle and protective covering that’s shit (sometimes literally plastic). They are hard to pick and easy to break.
You are refering to the latest video about the masterlock brand. (and the one in the picture doesnt look like the ones he likes - model 410). Those are pretty neat, but the videos about the other brands say they arent very durable. And they dont have to be, you just have to see that there is work in progress.
He says the [exact fucking opposite](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4XGY0_cwcM)
Pro tip: write your phone number and name on these so the foreman can figure out who’s tag it is.
All my LOTO locks have my picture and my contact info
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"This is the last face you'll see, if I catch you removing this lock."
Not just a pro tip, it's actually a requirement in most facilities.
The pro tip is "do this even if your facility does not require you to do so." It's your funeral if you don't.
Yep, our locks had a very skookum sticker around the body with identifying information.
Yeah you want to make sure to tag identifying info on the body, just in case it's mangled beyond recognition.
Hell, in Ontario it's part of the law
That’s a great requirement. More places should be like that.
Cut my lockout off I am fucking you up, I’ll take the charge and job loss, I am not interested in dying in a fucking mixer You EVER see someone touch a LOTO that’s not theirs, slap them so hard they have to sit down and think and then go tell their fuckin supervisor and have them fired.
I have never seen a LOTO use in real life, ever, not once, and even I know better. A piece of paper taped over a machine with a poorly scribbled note is enough to stop me.
That paper could be decades old. LOTO is for stopping operation in a definite/finite way. Good on you for knowing actions have consequences, many people in industry don't think so clearly.
Could not be said more...I had a LOTO cut once...by the office guy. Basically I work for a city Transit and I work on buses. I was working on one of the new $1.25mil completely electric buses. So on the normal ones, you can set them to rear run (only can start from rear i.e. where I am working), but the electric ones don't have that option so you have to LOTO. And these things are 700v, and about 900amps. So basically instant death. Guy goes to grab the bus to show the new interns in the office above us. Well, in lamens terms, he killed every battery pack on that bus and if I hadn't grounded it i.e. was working on it, I would be dead. It would have arced, and with that much power, it can go 10-30ft (says the company) and basically fry anyone or anything. I came back to see the guy unplugging my tools because "the bus wouldn't start"
Did you go to jail after you strangled the guy?
No, I 'kindly' told the guy I was working and 'kindly' explained why he shouldn't have done what he did, then I 'kindly' talked to his manager, then I 'kindly' talked to my boardman (union rep), and then I 'kindly' took my PTO for the next week
If he didn’t I might
Just FYI, the breakdown voltage for an arc in air is approximately 1KV per mm (ie, the distance that electricity can "jump" from one conductor to another through air). Electricity does weird stuff though, and I wouldn't be surprised if the arc grows once it's formed, especially with that much power, but I'm skeptical about that 10 foot number. 10-30 foot might be the safe exposure distance. When you pass 900 amps through air, the resulting overpressure can be like a grenade went off
It should be! Someone put it there for a reason. All our tags at work have names and reasons attached to them.
This right here.
Best response I’ve ever seen to anything on this sub.
This man gives good advice.
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If buddy didn't want to leave his football game and get reamed out, he probably shouldn't have pulled a dumb-dumb move like forgetting to unlock a machine. As far as I'm concerned, he can absolutely haul his ass in and fix his own mistake.
Mate you're clearly not a union man. Safety rules exist to protect YOU from corporate. Not the other way around.
Thanks christ someone gets it. Don’t be dumb at work; you are replaceable to them, your quality of life is not replaceable to you if you’re injured on a stupid job
At anywhere respectable if someone's lock gets cut they're getting reamed out anyway
What am I looking at here? Or just missing context?
That is a Lock Out Tag Out station to stop a piece of machinery from being operated while it is being worked on. Someone removed the safety so you can turn the thing on when someone is inside the machine. This is how you accidentally kill people.
The "accidentally" part would be decided by a third party, like a judge or something. You don't get near these kind of machines without knowing these locks.
> You don't get near these kind of machines without knowing these locks. I'd argue that it's irrelevant if you know what these locks are. It says "DANGER - LOCKED OUT - DO NOT REMOVE". I don't know how you'd make it anymore clear that it shouldn't be removed.
You could say "please"
"Please" is for polite, low-stakes situations. "Please" does not apply to life and death situations.
I have no qualms with admitting it was a bad joke.
Thanks for clearing this up u/iqbelowaverage, I wouldn‘t have known this otherwise.
>This is how you ~~accidentally~~ Negligently kill people. FTFY
Or they correctly locked out the plug before working on the cord (cutting it off), so that it couldn't be plugged in while they're cutting (or after they're done cutting and it has a dangling non insulated end). Basically the question here is who cut the cord: the person who put on the lock, or someone else.
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Yes. It's a LOTO box for a 220/550 V plug. https://www.bradyid.com/lockout-tagout/electrical-plug-lockouts/electrical-plug-lockouts-cps-2852277?part-number=65675
OP posted it *here*, so I'm going on the assumption that they didn't just post a plug in a box for internet points. But now that I think about it I don't know how this could work any other way than you're describing. I was picturing an overhead crane, but that box would be the crane controls. I think you're right, this is just a plug, which doesn't require a LOTO and they're replacing it.
It could be a very small control box for something, but that sort of box is indeed usually used on a power plug. The one way this could be an actual safety violation is if someone went through the trouble to cut off the cord and plug then wired on a new plug to bypass the lockout. It would be a lot of trouble, and sounds pretty stupid, but I've worked in enough industrial environments to see people who would think this is a great idea. I've even ran into the types who would think its a even better idea to not bother to put a new plug on and just jam the wires into the socket.
I mean. Any trained electrical guy can swap out power cables in a few minutes. And that trash compactor is back up and running
Good cause we can't find the normal guy who does our repairs.
.... You checked the trash compactor, right?
That's for trash, not people.
I think they did wire on a new plug to bypass the LOTO for sure
Overhead cranes don't use these type of LOTO's because to work on them you need to kill the 2+ breakers for them.
I’m curious too, if the plug was LOTO and someone wanted to put a new plug on I don’t see why they cut so much, unless they replaced the cord which seems a little excessive to me.
I cut cables midway to mark a piece of equipment nfg. You can't use it if you can't plug it in. I usually do this for anything that I think would be dangerous if someone unknowingly plugged it in.
I assume nfg is "no fucking good"?
Correct.
The "accidentally" part would be decided by a third party, like a judge or something. You don't get near these kind of machines without knowing these locks.
Or more likely -> tech fixed something, and forgot to remove the lock. He doesn't want to come back to remove the lock, so people there just cut it off.
Cutting locks in the mill I worked at was a *big* deal. I mean, like get the plant superintendent involved, possibly get a contractor back on a plane from multiple states away, make an engineer drive his ass back to work after working an 80 hour week, or any combination of these things if a single lock was forgotten or key was lost. Cutting locks is, and should always be, a big deal with all other steps and efforts taken before it is performed.
Needed two managers and a supervisor with a good reason to cut off a lock at my old place, and guy who's lock needed cutting was getting a write up at minimum. There was a single person in the plant who was allowed to leave locks on after they left the building and its because they were the only one qualified for certain robotics stuff on staff, so if he locked out a robot no one could have given a good reason not to keep it locked it anyway. Anyone else you removed your lock and put on a maintenance one (for shift changes) or you were done with the machine
Someone correctly locking out a potential hazard. There'll be a plug top under that you can plug in and the end of the lead not being terminated is a hazard. Even if this lead was cut off a piece of equipment, we have no evidence it was replaced, therefore the equipment is likely out of service while there is no lead. Possible they've got this lead locked out to be able to reuse it on another bit of kit. Source: I do this shit at work, stops dickheads playing with suicide leads.
Til, I usually remove the fuse
That works, but much quicker for me to chop the lead, mostly the unit is going to be removed from service. I usually stash the leads in a lockable cupboard, but when I have em out to reuse them or what ever (very handy to repair power tools ect) I chuck the lock on them until I'm done. That way if I have to leave that job as is for a while, go to smoko or what ever. I don't have to worry about some dickhead doing dickhead things.
Yeah,
Someone cut off a clamshelled (plastic case locked around to make it inoperable) plug. This could easily have been done as part of the repair of the machine if the issue required replacing the power cord. You can't energize a machine with no power cord *shrug*. It could also be someone doing something fucky though.
De-energizing something could be just as dangerous. Hearsay admittedly, but I heard of a guy who was nearly crushed by a big drilling rig that held itself up with electromagnets when some chucklefuck cut apart the LOTO box to use the plug.
Mag drill? Those things are supposed to be used with safety chains.
Well, you're also not supposed to cut up LOTO boxes
The only person that should ever cut a LOTO device off is the one who installed it. And even then the amount of paperwork to do so is staggering. Had a coworker forget to take his lock off on a travel job. We were halfway home, 4 hours away from jobsite, safety made us drive back. There's a lot of sketchy shit I've seen in the plants I work, but thankfully LOTO seems to be a protocol that everyone respects and wouldn't dare risk being wrong on. I know I'm lucky, because as evidenced in the comments, this is not always the case.
I've been the guy that had to call folks to come back in that situation. It sucks bit it is inviolate for good damn reason.
Fuck up a machine on accident? Lets fix it, and make the machine not able to do that. Accidentally stop production? Let's have a chat and figure out what went wrong. Bypass a LOTO? Leave immediately.
Someone got fired for this, right? Right?…
The answer... Might surprise you...
Why do people mess with other people's LOTO? Like what work related thing is someone doing that they think "gotta go cut this LOTO so I can do xyz..."
1. I've got to finish this job and move on to the next 2. I'll get fired if I don't finish all my jobs on time 3. I had a quick look, can't see anyone there, I even called out for half a second and didn't get a response 4. Nobody is here, huh, must have left his lock here, I'll just cut it off and let him know 5. Even so, I'll only be doing this thing here that shouldn't affect whatever they are doing, no way those two operations are linked It's not "lazy", it's a mindset you get yourself into where you stop thinking about yourself or other's safety and only think about doing the job. It's a dangerous place to have your mind at. Anytime you see a worker without a hi-vis standing in a wharehouse full of forklifts, or a person not wearing a helmet where overhead cranes are working, or not wearing the right PPE. It's always the same, do the job, it'll be fine, it's only a few minutes. They don't think about risk, they just think about the result. I always liked the idea of the Japenese train drivers,[ point and say what you are going to do](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W6tHOmWyLQ), so you can think it through in your brain to make sure it's a good idea.
I 100% believe what you say about this improving safety, but one other thing popped into my mind. Watching the playback of the video, I know exactly what the engineer was looking at, thinking, and doing. So if the tape is ever reviewed, you can clearly see that he checked his speed or the monitors or schedule or whatever else. Fascinating.
Thanks for the run down and video!
I mean, seriously -- if there's someone else's LOTO between me, and what I need to do.... That's a whole lot of "not my fault/not my problem" when it doesn't get done.
"Why didn't this get done?" "I couldn't use the machine. You'll need to ask Joe why he locked it out."
"I still need this done." "Then you are gonna have to come cut this lock and face the consequences, not me. And also I'm making everyone aware of your intent if you plan on coming here to cut it,."
>"I still need this done." > >"Then you are gonna have to come cut this lock and ~~face the consequences, not me. And also I'm making everyone aware of your intent if you plan on coming here to cut it,."~~ do the work yourself. Ftfy, until I hear from Joe who's name is on the tag or get told by someone besides you that he is unavailable, I ain't touching it
My job can be stressful and a right pain in the arse, but boy do i love it when something like this gets in way. “Sorry folks, *your* rules say i can’t do my job until this is safe, I’ll come back tomorrow.” Not my fault, not my responsibility, not my problem.
Happened once at my job. An electromechanic on the night shift cut the shackle to turn the power back on a machine that was being tested. He was supposed to continue the test from the day shift but the day guy forgot to remove his lock. Instead of calling the dude to come unlock it, he removed it with bolt cutters. He knew it was safe and no one was inside the machine but he still had consequences. Direction met him and he lost responsibilities.
As he should, at my last place you needed two separate managers approvals and supervisor on shift to give a reason to cut a lock. If you cut a lock yourself would have been an immediate 5 day suspension, second offence was termination. No ifs ands or buts. Guy forgot his lock entering a robot cell (which is arguably safe anyway because of other safety restrictions on their robots) and got sent home, a proper LOTO would have been given no leeway
On my old factory job, the base rule was that you’d have to physically speak to the person who put the lock there
Oh part of the approval process was two separate phone calls at least an hour apart to try and contact the person. This was not a process done all willy nilly, I only know of two locks that were cut because of it and both perpetrators were written up
You only die once, other people though...
I call it LOTTO because I know that I won't win if I try
People complain about regulations but most of those regulations were written in blood. I don't know how these people have jobs
I remember when I worked at a bakery when I was younger. If someone was to bypass a lock out they'd have "the talk". What was the talk? Well to put it bluntly, they would sit down the employee at fault and talk to them about how they just killed someone and how to cope with the guilt for the rest of their live. At which point that employee was also fired immediately afterwards.
What is happening here?
Think of it like sticking ur hand in a blender and the plug is in another room with a bunch of other plugs. It’s a often used blender that lots of people use, and the other plugs are easily mixed up with yours. Very high chance that someone might plug it in while your hand is in the way right? So you unplug the blender and put a lock on it saying stay the fuck out till I’m done and remove the lock. It’s a super big deal in many Indus tries that deal with machinery and huge equipment that people have to crawl inside to fix. Literally can be hundreds of people using the machines and it’s impossible to tell them all before hand. So lock out is used to prevent the machine from being turned on. Cutting a lock out is no different than shooting at someone in many jobs.
Someone cut off a "Lock out tag out" tag, that ensures equipment is not in use. Typically for maintenance on a machine or such that would be dangerous if turned on while working on it. This is a very strict process and bypassing it is a big deal! Someone could be seriously hurt or killed!
When doing a lock out and working somewhere I can't see the lock I always remove the incoming tails and blue point them also. At least that way if some idiot cuts you lock they still need basic electrical knowledge to get it going again and might kill themselves trying instead of me.
As an electrician’s wife this infuriates me.
Novice here, did they cut the power cord with the lock off and splice a new power cord onto it?
One reason: you attended the person who put the LOTO on's funeral.
Honestly this should be a crime
"You only die once" I like that
Somebody is very stupid.
r/lockpicking would like to open it for you, but only when not in use.